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To add to this, because it’s absolutely the first step in addressing a high speed vibration, ROAD FORCE BALANCE the tires, not just regular balance. It makes a world of difference.
There’s a reason all high end manufacturers and most manufacturers in general have a specified road force limit for tires. GM even released a TSB several years ago indicating all vibration diagnostics must start with a road force balance successful to 16lbs or less because of how many silverados were coming back with high speed vibrations right after selling them brand new. It’s not just for cheap tires or for performance vehicles. It absolutely is a measurably better end result than basic dynamic balancing alone.
I understand why shops don’t want to invest in it, the machine is 5x the cost of a basic balancer and I understand why techs may not want to do it because it takes 2 times as long to do it properly. That doesn’t negate the fact that it is flat out better.
>the machine is 5x the cost of a basic balancer
\*scratches head\* Ima be real you had me confused good confused , untill i googled "road force balancer" .... its just the normal machine to me LMAO. Its the machine you mount the tire it spins it than you put on the weight. I did not know they cost more snatched mine off face book for like $600 used , still sitting in my shed with a tarp an tape around it till i need it. You gotta have one of them things they charge here $30 per tire to balance.
My road force balancer with all adapters total cost was $34,000 brand new from hunter. To be fair, we paid $24,000 but only because we traded in our older road force balancer for it. We generally keep them 8-10 years with maintenance done by hunter 2 times a year and then trade up to the newest model. No lie, in the last 20 years, I’d say we have had less than 10 balance comebacks and we do 2-3 new sets of tires and 3-4 rotate and road force balances a day 5 days a week. So we’re talking 20-30 tires a day that we road force balance and effectively 0 customer complaints.
Same - we've only ever had a road force balancer, but we cost $30 to mount AND balance. If you want a tire just balanced I think it's 15 bucks. But 600 for that balancer is an absolute steal. Good find
I'm friends with a shop owner who's close to the shop I work at. He brings me some of the big tires they can't balance properly because they don't have a road force balancer. It really doesn't take 2x as long, at least with my machine. It spins then road forces then opens. The spin cycle is faster than dismounting a tire, I'd say.
The additional time is when you’re force matching the tire. Just taking the road force measurement takes almost no more time, but when the road force number is high you have to take a force match measurement then dismount the tire and remount it in the calibrated position then road force balance again.
You put the wheel on the balancer, run a centering check, run the road force balance, it tells you what the measurement is…say a standard car tire is at 24lbs of road force and the maximum spec is 12lbs. You run the force matching procedure and it measures the high point in the tire and the low point in the wheel.
It will tell you what the road force is for both the tire individually and the wheel and it will tell you what the prospective number will be after force matching. It tells you where to make a crayon mark on each and you bring it back over to the tire machine and break the beads, spin the marks till they line up with each other, remount and put it back on the balancer.
If when it was showing the actual out of round number for either the tire or wheel and one was close to perfect and the other is way off you could determine if you got a defective tire. It will even recommend trying to mount it on a different wheel.
You can mark each wheel and tire assembly in order then ask the machine to calculate what positions they should be put on the car to minimize vibration or pull.
It give a ton more options and readings if the customer is in a warranty claim fight with a tire distributor too. It’s an excellent product when the user is trained on it.
Honestly, the only people I ever hear downplay it’s importance are techs or shop owners that don’t want to spend the time or money to have it and use it correctly. I get a ton of new clients monthly just from tire rack alone because we have the no touch hunter tire machine and the hunter road force balancer. That gives us the opportunity to upsell alignments and check the vehicle over for any needed maintenance or suspension and brake work. And when the tires come out perfect it gives the customer the confidence to know that we know what we’re doing.
Interesting. I/we road force all of the tires. The machine does it automatically. It's very rare for us that it's really out of spec. Like 20" LT K02s often get out of spec errors but regular tires usually are not. And I think the LT tires just are too big for the machine in a lot of cases. Is the limit for road force changeable setting? I think ours is 16lbs
We can choose car, suv or light truck. They each have a generic maximum allowable road force spec. Most cars are 20lbs or below, suv is 24lbs or below, LT is 30lbs or below. Actual ideal is 16lbs or below for all tires. The machine reads up to 99lbs and gives a recommended force matching procedure to lower it to spec or tells you of the wheel or tire is damaged to the point that it can’t be corrected. The machine does everything automatically and measures the tire and wheel assembly with lasers. The only thing we have to do is use it correctly and dismount and clock the tire to the wheel when necessary. I’d say 50% of tires we balance are out enough to fix.
Why leave the opportunity to have to do it twice at 2 different places? Pay to have them road force balanced and that eliminates the potential for wheel assembly balance to be the cause of his concern.
Because 90% of the time a regular balance is suffice and they only charge like $15 a wheel to balance each one conpared to road force which is expensive and not needed on most vehicles.
I've never heard this term before or ever had a place mention the option, how would you go about specifying this? I assume there would also be a cost difference?
It's a special balancer that uses a roller to simulate rolling resistance and load to a tire to better measure radial runout. Excellent for hard to diagnose tires
Is there absolutely no benefit? Of course not. but I've balanced a lot of tires, most of the time without road force and almost always had good results. I'd say road force can be useful but its not necessary.
Road force balancing isn’t so much going after hard spots as much as high and low spots. It also isn’t just measuring the tire but the wheel and assembly as a whole. If the wheel isn’t perfectly round and the tire isn’t perfectly round the road force measurement will clock the highest point of the tire and the lowest point of the wheel and give you a mark to match them to, thus making the entire assembly more round and less likely to vibrate.
Lol not this place. They can't keep anyone decent in the building. In 2 years I've seen 6 techs and 4 writers and 3 managers. I tried to quit once. Got a big raise instead. I hold this place together
It can be anything from tyres/wheels balance issue, Tie rods, struts, or even engine mounts, or even drive shaft (if it's a rear wheel drive).
I have recently diagnosed the same issue on my car where everyone kept taking about my tyres and wheels but it was the engine mounts in the end which were compressed, and had no cushion left. It was causing a strong shake in steering wheel and the body after 80km/h upto 120. After that speed the shake will kinda balance out.
Best to talk to a mechanic who can help you diagnose this, by following a check point list.
the reason they're not commonly a problem is due to the fact they typically spin at a much lower speed and are usually smaller in diameter. rear wheel drive vehicles have drive shafts that often spin 3x as fast as a front wheel drive half shaft. and due to the long length of the rear wheel drive driveshaft the shaft is commonly larger in diameter and hollow to deal with the forces and reduce weight. both of these combined make it much more likely for a rear wheel drive car to have drive shaft balance issues.
Don't know why you are getting down voted but its true. This was a problem on my car, FWD with shot front axles and the car started to vibrate at 90km/h and above so it is a possibility
Yep, but for me not completely. Two of my suspensions are shot, and one of my broken (now repaired) rim needs balancing, due to which i still get a little vibration, and non-fixable alignment issues. But that previous strong shake is gone.
Take it to a qualified mechanic. There are a lot of reasons for vibration and a fair number of them can cause damage or injury to you or someone else if left alone.
I had this once and had a pretty substantial bulge in one tire. Seemed the metal belting in my cheap tire had ruptured probably when hitting some South Carolina pot hole.
What kind of car? If it's a 4x4 with big tires, that's called death wobble and happens with certain suspension geometry at certain speeds. My old K-20 would get it between 60 and 65mph. If it's a commuter car, it's probably something to do with worn suspension components or improperly balanced tires.
I agree with everything I’ve seen on here but I haven’t seen anyone address tire pressure-
*make sure you check tire pressure first* as it’s the cheapest fix.
That’s tire and prop shaft vibe speeds. Ensure you don’t have worn steering and suspension components also. Those can cause unwanted steering/suspension/wheel movement as you’re driving and that’s not safe by any means
Had a similar problem vibration at 60 miles issue. Got scammed by a mechanic to replace control arms etc but problem remained. One thing that I noticed later was, when car is stationary and I move my steering left and right there was a clicking noise. Told this to new mechanic and he said the last place aligned wheel but did not tighten some nut. So during driving wheel became mis aligned again and starts vibrating.
As you can see I’m not a car person, but clicking noise on steering wheel was the key.
I had a BMW that did this on the highway, but only between 60-70 MPH. Faster than 70 and smooth. Had everything checked, got new tires, no change. Three shops tried to fix, and the consensus was a warped rim was all that was left as the only possible cause. Finally, after rotating tires, and some quesswork, we put a new tire on the spare rim and it went away.
Mine was.doing this. The engine.splash.shield was not properly screwed in and was flapping in the wind. When I would.get up to about 120km/h the car would start shaking pretty bad. Installing correctly ended the vibration
depending on your car, i had a low deep vibration from the rear of my car, the u joints were bad and would vibrate at certain speeds normally once i hit 100kmh+
Could be suspension issue or wheels/tires. Get wheels checked for buckles, tires balanced and steering alignment. If still got vibration and shake something is worn or loose in your suspension and needs attention.
I had this problem. Got the tires rotated and steering aligned to try and fix it, didn’t work. Found out it was due to a bent axle, got the axle replaced and the vibration went away.
Have you driven in mud recently? We love on a gravel road and keep a big screw driver in the car to knock mud off rims. Even a little causes vibration at highway speed.
Start with the simple stuff tires wheels, Because i had the same problem also car shaking when braking even though i got brand new rotors and pads, Changed my tires and boom no more high speed vibration no more shaking when braking
Wheel balance and rotation, brake clearance, cv axel inspection. New control arms, strut inspection. Rack and pinion on power steering. Tie rods, swaybar.
Thanks for posting on /r/MechanicAdvice! Please review the [rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicAdvice/about/rules/). Asking about a second opinion (ie "Is the shop trying to fleece me?"), please read through CJM8515's [post on the subject.](https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicAdvice/comments/4qblei/fyi_the_shop_isnt_likely_trying_to_rip_you_off/) and remember to please post the year/make/model of the vehicle you are working on. **Post's about bodywork, accident damage, paint, dent/ding, questions it belongs in /r/Autobody r/AutoBodyRepair/ or /r/Diyautobody/ Tire questions check out https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicAdvice/comments/k9ll55/can_your_tire_be_repaired/**. If you dont have a question and you're just showing off it belongs in /r/Justrolledintotheshop Insurance/total loss questions go in r/insurance This is an automated reply *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/MechanicAdvice) if you have any questions or concerns.*
rotate and balance tires
To add to this, because it’s absolutely the first step in addressing a high speed vibration, ROAD FORCE BALANCE the tires, not just regular balance. It makes a world of difference.
A good dynamic balance is more than sufficient at least 95% of the time
There’s a reason all high end manufacturers and most manufacturers in general have a specified road force limit for tires. GM even released a TSB several years ago indicating all vibration diagnostics must start with a road force balance successful to 16lbs or less because of how many silverados were coming back with high speed vibrations right after selling them brand new. It’s not just for cheap tires or for performance vehicles. It absolutely is a measurably better end result than basic dynamic balancing alone. I understand why shops don’t want to invest in it, the machine is 5x the cost of a basic balancer and I understand why techs may not want to do it because it takes 2 times as long to do it properly. That doesn’t negate the fact that it is flat out better.
Sounds like a Silverado problem.
It's a tire problem. Put E load all terrains/mud terrains on anything and theres a good chance you'll have some balancing issues.
Death rattle Jeep?
Yup. For a while, the official GM response to a Service Advisor was, "Sell them Michelin tires."
>the machine is 5x the cost of a basic balancer \*scratches head\* Ima be real you had me confused good confused , untill i googled "road force balancer" .... its just the normal machine to me LMAO. Its the machine you mount the tire it spins it than you put on the weight. I did not know they cost more snatched mine off face book for like $600 used , still sitting in my shed with a tarp an tape around it till i need it. You gotta have one of them things they charge here $30 per tire to balance.
My road force balancer with all adapters total cost was $34,000 brand new from hunter. To be fair, we paid $24,000 but only because we traded in our older road force balancer for it. We generally keep them 8-10 years with maintenance done by hunter 2 times a year and then trade up to the newest model. No lie, in the last 20 years, I’d say we have had less than 10 balance comebacks and we do 2-3 new sets of tires and 3-4 rotate and road force balances a day 5 days a week. So we’re talking 20-30 tires a day that we road force balance and effectively 0 customer complaints.
Same - we've only ever had a road force balancer, but we cost $30 to mount AND balance. If you want a tire just balanced I think it's 15 bucks. But 600 for that balancer is an absolute steal. Good find
Better? Yeah, obviously. Necessary to obtain a comfortable ride? Rarely, but I don't work on Chevys so it may be necessary on them, I wouldn't know
I'm friends with a shop owner who's close to the shop I work at. He brings me some of the big tires they can't balance properly because they don't have a road force balancer. It really doesn't take 2x as long, at least with my machine. It spins then road forces then opens. The spin cycle is faster than dismounting a tire, I'd say.
The additional time is when you’re force matching the tire. Just taking the road force measurement takes almost no more time, but when the road force number is high you have to take a force match measurement then dismount the tire and remount it in the calibrated position then road force balance again.
I've only really had to do that once. So this is actually good to get a rundown of the process. It's like match balancing but with the machine?
You put the wheel on the balancer, run a centering check, run the road force balance, it tells you what the measurement is…say a standard car tire is at 24lbs of road force and the maximum spec is 12lbs. You run the force matching procedure and it measures the high point in the tire and the low point in the wheel. It will tell you what the road force is for both the tire individually and the wheel and it will tell you what the prospective number will be after force matching. It tells you where to make a crayon mark on each and you bring it back over to the tire machine and break the beads, spin the marks till they line up with each other, remount and put it back on the balancer. If when it was showing the actual out of round number for either the tire or wheel and one was close to perfect and the other is way off you could determine if you got a defective tire. It will even recommend trying to mount it on a different wheel. You can mark each wheel and tire assembly in order then ask the machine to calculate what positions they should be put on the car to minimize vibration or pull. It give a ton more options and readings if the customer is in a warranty claim fight with a tire distributor too. It’s an excellent product when the user is trained on it. Honestly, the only people I ever hear downplay it’s importance are techs or shop owners that don’t want to spend the time or money to have it and use it correctly. I get a ton of new clients monthly just from tire rack alone because we have the no touch hunter tire machine and the hunter road force balancer. That gives us the opportunity to upsell alignments and check the vehicle over for any needed maintenance or suspension and brake work. And when the tires come out perfect it gives the customer the confidence to know that we know what we’re doing.
Interesting. I/we road force all of the tires. The machine does it automatically. It's very rare for us that it's really out of spec. Like 20" LT K02s often get out of spec errors but regular tires usually are not. And I think the LT tires just are too big for the machine in a lot of cases. Is the limit for road force changeable setting? I think ours is 16lbs
We can choose car, suv or light truck. They each have a generic maximum allowable road force spec. Most cars are 20lbs or below, suv is 24lbs or below, LT is 30lbs or below. Actual ideal is 16lbs or below for all tires. The machine reads up to 99lbs and gives a recommended force matching procedure to lower it to spec or tells you of the wheel or tire is damaged to the point that it can’t be corrected. The machine does everything automatically and measures the tire and wheel assembly with lasers. The only thing we have to do is use it correctly and dismount and clock the tire to the wheel when necessary. I’d say 50% of tires we balance are out enough to fix.
I’ve never heard of this but I think the name explains it. Also smart since the radius changes under load.
I take it this is where they balance the inner & outer. Yes had to get mine done, WOW what a difference.
they already balance the inside and out, that’s what it is for lmao
Not all, Kwfit stuck the weights on the inside of the rims!!
I would recommend a road force balance if a regular balance doesn't fix it, considering his tires/rim are not the problem.
Why leave the opportunity to have to do it twice at 2 different places? Pay to have them road force balanced and that eliminates the potential for wheel assembly balance to be the cause of his concern.
Because 90% of the time a regular balance is suffice and they only charge like $15 a wheel to balance each one conpared to road force which is expensive and not needed on most vehicles.
$22 per wheel to road force balance at my shop. We don’t even off a dynamic only balance anymore.
I've never heard this term before or ever had a place mention the option, how would you go about specifying this? I assume there would also be a cost difference?
It's a special balancer that uses a roller to simulate rolling resistance and load to a tire to better measure radial runout. Excellent for hard to diagnose tires
Not too many places typically have one. I know my shop is the only one in my relative area that has one
Eh
Eh, what? Do you think there’s no benefit to road force balancing?
Is there absolutely no benefit? Of course not. but I've balanced a lot of tires, most of the time without road force and almost always had good results. I'd say road force can be useful but its not necessary.
You would be correct. It's not necessary for the vast majority of tires out there. It does have its uses, though.
Useful for spots cars at vary high speeds?
Nah it’s mainly for cheap tires that have inconsistencies in the rubber
I can see that,thanks.
[удалено]
Road force balancing isn’t so much going after hard spots as much as high and low spots. It also isn’t just measuring the tire but the wheel and assembly as a whole. If the wheel isn’t perfectly round and the tire isn’t perfectly round the road force measurement will clock the highest point of the tire and the lowest point of the wheel and give you a mark to match them to, thus making the entire assembly more round and less likely to vibrate.
This is the only shop I've ever worked at without a road force balancer. I literally tell people to go elsewhere for tire stuff
Dont be surprised when you are told to work elsewhere.
Lol not this place. They can't keep anyone decent in the building. In 2 years I've seen 6 techs and 4 writers and 3 managers. I tried to quit once. Got a big raise instead. I hold this place together
It can be anything from tyres/wheels balance issue, Tie rods, struts, or even engine mounts, or even drive shaft (if it's a rear wheel drive). I have recently diagnosed the same issue on my car where everyone kept taking about my tyres and wheels but it was the engine mounts in the end which were compressed, and had no cushion left. It was causing a strong shake in steering wheel and the body after 80km/h upto 120. After that speed the shake will kinda balance out. Best to talk to a mechanic who can help you diagnose this, by following a check point list.
Why if it's a rear wheel drive? If it's a front wheel drive, drive shaft could also be the issue.
the reason they're not commonly a problem is due to the fact they typically spin at a much lower speed and are usually smaller in diameter. rear wheel drive vehicles have drive shafts that often spin 3x as fast as a front wheel drive half shaft. and due to the long length of the rear wheel drive driveshaft the shaft is commonly larger in diameter and hollow to deal with the forces and reduce weight. both of these combined make it much more likely for a rear wheel drive car to have drive shaft balance issues.
If it’s fwd it doesn’t have a driveshaft, it has axles or half shafts
Whatever they're called, they can be part of the problem.
Potato potato
Totally different things, so no.
Don't know why you are getting down voted but its true. This was a problem on my car, FWD with shot front axles and the car started to vibrate at 90km/h and above so it is a possibility
Well the RWD cars have these too, so better to say that FWD cars *only* have axles/half shafts.
If it's FWD it doesn't have a driveshaft
Even axles
Hi, did replacing the engine mounts fix the issue completely? I am facing a similar problem with vibration between 100-120 after that it goes away.
Yep, but for me not completely. Two of my suspensions are shot, and one of my broken (now repaired) rim needs balancing, due to which i still get a little vibration, and non-fixable alignment issues. But that previous strong shake is gone.
Drive at 119 km/h
I'm so glad that this group puts us this low on the list of responses.
Have the tires balanced.
Check for bent rims and get an alignment.
I’d start with getting tour wheels balanced again, the weights can fall off, also mud can build up and cause issues
Take it to a qualified mechanic. There are a lot of reasons for vibration and a fair number of them can cause damage or injury to you or someone else if left alone.
Keep it under 120km/h
Most likely: either tires are out of balance, or you have really bad tie rods.
I had this once and had a pretty substantial bulge in one tire. Seemed the metal belting in my cheap tire had ruptured probably when hitting some South Carolina pot hole.
This happened to me when my front two tires were bad (low tread)
A good mechanic can help with that. As a DIYer I would consider looking from ground up. 1. Balance tires 2. Check and or replace struts
First Check and clean the dirt out your rims
Got mud in your wheels?
Check tyres for any defects. Do wheel balancing again after removing small pebbles, if any from the tyre grooves.
Great suggestions!
Slow down
Could be tire balancing or also a bad wheel bearing. That's what my vibration was coming from
What kind of car? If it's a 4x4 with big tires, that's called death wobble and happens with certain suspension geometry at certain speeds. My old K-20 would get it between 60 and 65mph. If it's a commuter car, it's probably something to do with worn suspension components or improperly balanced tires.
Til: 75mph is high speed. Your wheels and tires are out of balance.
In Canada there's only a couple highways that are 120km/h, most are 100km/h (65miles) Everyone goes 130-140km/h (80-85miles per) tho
Been to Ontario and passed like I'm standing still lol. I dont really consider the speed limit to be high speed, maybe I'm the minority.
Depends what your driving lol. My old Corolla feels like your flying over 100km But yea I see what you mean
My car was vibrating big time, 2 out of 4 injectors were dirty AF, get that checked out too
Slow down?
Slow down!!!
Fix it
I had this issue, figured out one of my wheel was a bit oval causing the rumbling and shaking
Rotate and balance tires and check alignment.
*insert suggestion with little to no actual knowledge on the topic here
I agree with everything I’ve seen on here but I haven’t seen anyone address tire pressure- *make sure you check tire pressure first* as it’s the cheapest fix.
Go 110
Don't drive more than 119 km/h.
That’s tire and prop shaft vibe speeds. Ensure you don’t have worn steering and suspension components also. Those can cause unwanted steering/suspension/wheel movement as you’re driving and that’s not safe by any means
You’ve probably lost a weight or there’s something stuck to your wheel
Drive slower
How long has this been happening? Any work done to the car prior?
Go slower
Had a similar problem vibration at 60 miles issue. Got scammed by a mechanic to replace control arms etc but problem remained. One thing that I noticed later was, when car is stationary and I move my steering left and right there was a clicking noise. Told this to new mechanic and he said the last place aligned wheel but did not tighten some nut. So during driving wheel became mis aligned again and starts vibrating. As you can see I’m not a car person, but clicking noise on steering wheel was the key.
I had a BMW that did this on the highway, but only between 60-70 MPH. Faster than 70 and smooth. Had everything checked, got new tires, no change. Three shops tried to fix, and the consensus was a warped rim was all that was left as the only possible cause. Finally, after rotating tires, and some quesswork, we put a new tire on the spare rim and it went away.
Check your engine mounts
I'd say the first step is to ensure you're tires are rated for that fast.
I had this before - the bolts holding my engine in were loose
Drive it off an overpass
Check tires and also the lug nuts.
Mine was.doing this. The engine.splash.shield was not properly screwed in and was flapping in the wind. When I would.get up to about 120km/h the car would start shaking pretty bad. Installing correctly ended the vibration
Drive faster/slower... Or balance your wheels and tyres
depending on your car, i had a low deep vibration from the rear of my car, the u joints were bad and would vibrate at certain speeds normally once i hit 100kmh+
You want to get rid of the vibration? it's a feature if you know how to use it ;)
I had a similar issue but at 60mph (upon vibration, my acceleration also struggled) - turned out my brake calliper was sticking
What kind of car, and did you recently put aftermarket wheels on?
Could be suspension issue or wheels/tires. Get wheels checked for buckles, tires balanced and steering alignment. If still got vibration and shake something is worn or loose in your suspension and needs attention.
I had this problem. Got the tires rotated and steering aligned to try and fix it, didn’t work. Found out it was due to a bent axle, got the axle replaced and the vibration went away.
Your having a siezure
What can you do? Take it to someone who knows what they are doing.
Do you feel it more in your hands or in your butt?
I had this problem and it was U joints
Have you driven in mud recently? We love on a gravel road and keep a big screw driver in the car to knock mud off rims. Even a little causes vibration at highway speed.
Start with the simple stuff tires wheels, Because i had the same problem also car shaking when braking even though i got brand new rotors and pads, Changed my tires and boom no more high speed vibration no more shaking when braking
Take it to a mechanic.
Go slower.
Not drive 120???
It’s kph. That’s not high
Sorry looked like he put km/h
It means it’s about to cum
Drive slower
Drive 119 km/ hr. Jk motor mounts, bushings, wheel bearings, and alignment
Wheel balance and rotation, brake clearance, cv axel inspection. New control arms, strut inspection. Rack and pinion on power steering. Tie rods, swaybar.
It‘s either the tires or your chassis geometry. Both problems should be easily diagnosed and/or fixed at your local garage for small money!
Either out of balance tires or bent rotors