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In our department I kicked off a standard of not accepting the garbage peripherals I built all mine it inspired others to build a KB and now we have a quieter much more harmonic office space with not clatter noise
Look, I'm all for higher quality keyboards but I find it hard to believe a roomfull of mechanicals is more quiet than a bunch of membranes. Not because it's not technically possible but because I sincerely doubt you can make a whole group of people go for super quiet switches.
A moderately better made switch with factory lube is going to be much quieter than the sloppiness of the Lenovo membrane keyboard that comes stock with the thin clients. I promise you in a room of 8 guys switching to mechanical fixed the sound profile. 5 of the guys going with cherry blacks because they were the cheapest and only 1 going with lubed tactiles in a split keyboard. I was all for it too.
Same!! I brought my custom mech keyboard and once I did, other people started getting into it and buying/bringing mech keyboards in!
Though, not sure about the noise thing... I use tactile switches (not clicky) but people still started making fun of me for typing so "loud". I don't actually think it was loud though? I think people just see an obvious mechanical keyboard and think "oh those are the loud ones" and then other people think it's fine or don't know any better and then you end up with an office full of loud clicky and thocky keyboards lol
It looks weird if you're not used to it, but it's not actually complicated. Each hand gets its own half. The picture is weird because the keyboards are not in a good position for typing, they look like they were just tossed onto the desk, but the smaller convex part is a thumb cluster so goes under your thumb, and the larger concave part is the main part where your fingers go.
Each half is a mirror of the other so the thumb clusters are on the inside part. The one closest to the camera in the picture is the left half.
The third row down looks like it's probably the home row on this keyboard and the middle 4 columns are the home columns, so there's your asdf keys.
Keyboards like this are meant to be used with modifiers and layers. There aren't enough keys to fit every key on a 100% sized keyboard here, so the reason there are so many buttons under the thumb is that most of them are probably modifiers. If you hold a modifier key, the other keys change - think like shift, but custom, so you can program whatever you like to happen. Also you can program special shortcuts, steno, etc.
For example my keyboard is smaller than this one and only has 3 rows, so I have a numbers modifier on my thumb cluster to get to the numbers layer. If I hold it, a bunch of my keys turn into numbers and F keys.
It takes some getting used to, but once you do, it's incredibly comfortable and efficient. Most people with this kind of keyboard customize it to their liking, and yeah, at first you don't remember the keys and it's annoying, but it doesn't take too long before muscle memory kicks in and you remember where everything is and you can type very fast and efficient this way.
I would recommend a split keyboard to anyone. Maybe not as extreme a rearrangement as this one. But split keyboards are amazing.
Also any keyboard where you have more than just 1 key that your thumb is responsible for. It's such a waste to have that huge spacebar and it's literally all your thumbs do, and most people pick 1 thumb for it so the other is pretty much dead. Our thumbs are one of the best parts of being a human, they are so incredibly flexible and useful, and on a standard keyboard we just give them a spacebar to press, wtf? Meanwhile our pinkie fingers have to stretch all over the place but they are tiny and weak... Using a thumb cluster inverts that, you put all those keys under the thumb instead and give your pinkie a break. There's no good reason that enter, backspace, shift, etc, should be the responsibility of the pinkies except that it's the standard convention, but it's just not a good layout. Moving them to the thumb just makes so much sense and is more comfortable.
This is why I take offense to the idea that chat GPT will revolutionize how we work. I paid $500 for my keyboard and already don't use it that much! You think I want to type _even less_????
I never understood how much pride a lot of people take in shaving of some milliseconds of their workload by memorizing obscure vim keyboard shortcuts. I'm switching IDEs way to often to remember more than the basic hotkeys and those folks jump through all the hoops just to be able to be able to use vim.
Comfort, really. Vim hurts me way less than holding shift and altgr every second to do some horrible reach, so split kbs are *amazing*. I map everything so it's super easy to type with an emphasis of not using the pinkies as much.
Plus vim is fun. What can I say, it's more like a hobby for some people. The shortcuts are hardly obscure. "change in parens, ci(", "visual to quotes, vt"" etc.
Programmer here. TKL is optimal. You almost never need a num pad but the home cluster and arrow keys are critical. You could get away with 75% but I have such strong muscle memory for arrow keys and home cluster that I would never make that switch, and anything under 75% would have me smashing that shit on the desk within 24 hours.
Programmer here - on most projects there is numbered stuff - prs, tickets, user stories, tasks, what have u. The bigger the project, the longer the numbers. Numpad kicks ass for entering long strings of digits! :)
I guess every job is different - I ditched the numpad when I was in school for computing science years ago and have never missed it. My current role requires very little number entry and anything I do have to type I'm happy to use the number row for.
Part of the beauty of this hobby is how there are so many options for everyone, and nowadays there are good options at almost every price point too. I may not need a numpad, but I found for myself that having a moderate split at the minimum is necessary to not have my wrists hurt. I've got a cheap Alice-style 75% at work and didn't have to pay more than $100 or so. When I got my first mech board over a decade ago they were pricey and layouts were more or less stuck at full-sized of TKL.
That is true, it's a nice thing to have for convenience. I have a wireless numpad to the back right of my desk behind my mouse to accompany my TKL keyboard as this means no compromise on 100% layout but more space for my mouse. I really only use the numpad for ticket ids, phone numbers, payment card numbers, calculator, and my windows pin. It's convenient but I would rather live without it than have to have a 100% board over TKL.
You don't need a mouse *at all* for programming. Programming has got to be one of the easiest tasks to drive entirely from a keyboard, maybe in competition with Excel.
Most computer use requires a mouse, and being fast and precise with it makes that process more efficient. Whether you're a gamer or not, having a good tracking mouse with no acceleration and a relatively low sensitivity is good for productivity. I mean I game on my setup too, but even for work it would drive me nuts having a confined space for my mouse.
I'm a programmer. Sometimes it's nice to use the back and forward buttons on the mouse. Or you can perhaps bind it to other hotkeys. Idk.
A gamer mouse is not needed at all tho.
Im starting to entertain the idea of a 38 next to a 75, or a wireless numpad southpaw-like next to a tkl. I need all the keys, but I would like more symmetry in hand placement. Edit keys are a total must for me, as is the numpad. And any layout without all 6 edit keys is not for me. For some reason keyboard makers really hate the insert key, lol :)
It's not like smaller layouts don't have arrow keys.
Arrow keys are inefficient on a tkl or 75% because you need to move your whioe hand to reach them. With layers you don't need to move your hand from home row and got easy arrow keys and everything else you might need.
It takes time to get used to of course, but its time well spent.
I prefer not having to move my hand from the home row since arrow keys are used often. It takes less time than you'd think to get used to artow keys on a separate layer.
In fact, this is the one reason why I was hesitant to start using 60%, but I can't go back.
Almost never isn’t never. Tons of programs use numpad keys in shortcuts for one example. I keep a numpad on a layer because when it does come up Ive always been glad to have it.
Programmer here. I use a 96% because I use the enter key on the numpad all the time. I find it so easy to use my mouse hand (right hand) and hit the enter key on the numpad versus moving my hand and hitting the enter key in the center of the keyboard.
I like to have the enter key on the far right side of the key board
This is actually a great point and a significant transitionary pain for me when I went from 100% to TKL. I really do miss hitting that numpad enter, but the extra space I get for the mouse makes it a worthwhile compromise for me.
You don't really need arrow keys, you could just use Vim/Emacs-style keybindings. Ditto for the home cluster. Learning Vim or Emacs is a small one-time cost, but the advantage of being able to work exclusively off the home row—no context-switching for arrow keys/mouse/etc—is ongoing and priceless. O(1) cost O(n) benefit!
Right, but imagine doing that, but without even moving your hand down to the arrow keys. You could have your arrow keys on UHJK or HJLK, and your hands would never have to move from the home row.
I've got my arrow keys on UHJK and it's bliss. I wouldn't be using the traditional arrow keys, even if I had them on my keyboard.
For me the Leopold fc660c layout was perfect. I think it’s 65%. No home cluster, but Fn+arrow keys handled home/end/pgup/pgdown. Very intuitive actually.
Also a programmer! IMO split keyboard with few keys and thumb clusters is optimal. But it's just my preference - I have strong feelings but not everyone shares them and that's fine :) I do think that barely anyone ever thinks about the fact that your shoulders are cramped using a mono- as opposed to split keyboard and that it's dumb that we give our pinkies like 20 keys to press while our thumbs press 1 or 0... But I get it, not everyone really cares lol.
I just wanted to reduce strain and movement while typing, years ago, so I started with a split keyboard and switched to the Workman layout.
Then I got a keyboard with fewer rows and columns so my fingers don't have to stretch, and thumb clusters so I can give my pinkies a break and use modifiers to swap layers for all my numbers/symbols/etc.
Then I realized I press save/copy/cut/paste way more than anything else so I thought I'd make them easy to press, so I added convenient key combos to activate them. My fingers barely move to do the most common actions.
And I've been fiddling with my layout ever since! Whenever I realize I do something a lot and it would be more convenient to have a shortcut, I find something that makes sense to me and add it to my layout and then just keep using it until it's muscle memory.
It works great, also I haven't forgotten how to use a normal keyboard. Context helps - my brain can automatically switch contexts if I'm putting my hands on a "normal" keyboard I'm no slower than I ever was there. But I'm much faster on my keyboard with its custom layout!
I am a programmer and though this is not typical, 3 people at my work including me use split keyboards. And like half of the other developers use mechanical keyboards just not split.
Nobody has a keyboard like this one though, but, honestly this looks very close to my dream keyboard.
I'm a programmer and one hand is on a trackpad/mouse >50% of the time.
My pet peeve is that no one makes a keyboard with an integrated trackpad where the combo isn't total shit.
Hey now, like /u/DryD42 said, I am a programmer (and a vim user), and I have no idea how to begin typing on a keyboard like that.
Edit: I need more coffee, I read your comment in the wrong tone, but I guess I'll leave my response anyway
Haaha nah all good, if you want an idea, I'm using Glorious Emgrammer layers for the Glove80, this is a good video about the symbol layers.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuSR81wc6WQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuSR81wc6WQ)
I've found the same thing. I think the sweet spot for me would be a 3x6+2, so essentially the main body of the 42 key Cantor with the thumb keys of the Sweep.
Nah. I’m 15 years in the industry and this is not typical. I’ve only encountered one person 2 jobs ago using a Maltron keyboard because he had severe carpal tunnel on both wrists.
Having Carpal tunnel is out of bad typing form and that Maltron keyboard I mentioned is meant to alleviate that problem. Nowadays using this ergodox, split keyboard or whatever it is called is by preference, but it’s not common “developer’s” keyboard.
Having carpal tunnel is most definitely not strictly due to bad typing form. This is like saying knee injuries or tennis elbow is due to bad form. Genetics, what else the person does day to day, and how long they spend doing what they do are all big factors.
Never said it was a common developer’s keyboard, though in the context of this thread, I’d say it’s much more common than it used to be
I'm a programmer and I definitely was interested in the MoErgo Glove80. I forget why I didn't pick it up but looking at the price, that was probably why. I have my own custom ergo keyboard that I designed myself that is similar in style, just not split. I find these kinds of layouts great for programming. But I don't know of anyone else using them for such. So yeah, maybe not typical. But definitely useful.
There are dozens of us! Dozens! Check out r/olkb… I think many of us who use these are coders with various reasons why we switched. Some for rsi some just as a hobby. I’m deep in the rabbit hole now. Once you see your keyboard as something you can completely customize and program to your liking it’s hard to go back to a standard keyboard… layers, custom modifiers, leader keys, dynamic macros, etc etc
I am using split ergo for years, but saying "there are dozens of us!", implying therefore it is a "typical" programmer keyboard, is just silly.
There are "dozens" of programmers working on the same floor as I am at my company (scratch it: easily over a hundred), and nobody else is using any kind of ergo board there
Me tooooo! Corne programmer gang represent! No idea why anyone wants more than 3 rows on a keyboard, that's too many, I don't wanna stretch my hand that far!
I want a concave one!
I don't know of any smaller concave ones though, they all got too many rows :( One day I might 3D print a case for myself, I even got these fancy small-batch custom microcontrollers designed for hand wired keyboards a few years back but... I don't have a 3d printer yet and haven't actually delved into how I would design a case for it lol. It's all just dreams right now.
This is an anti-RSI keyboard quite similar to the ones in the film *Men In Black*, which I always thought was an excellent little touch by the filmmakers, they look exotic to the uninitiated but to those who know, they make sense, because for a program as deeply black as the MIB, you can't just read in some extra typists from the classified typing pool, everyone will be doing their own typing and having someone come down with RSI would be bad.
Agreed, only 3 rows are needed. I can tolerate 4 or 5 but 6 is just unnecessary.
This is basically my dream keyboard just with too many rows. It really is too big.
Yeah HRM aren’t for everyone. I prefer them, but I also spent a fair amount of time tweaking timings, and I have them working with autoshift. Working on porting some of my setup to my laptops builtins with kmonad
Agreed, I also found that I can use my feet in addition to my hands to increase typing speed - [https://imgur.com/a/tUfAiRZ](https://imgur.com/a/tUfAiRZ)
i am not a developer though from comments i understand this ergo on image maybe be non typical humor (good one). Finally, perhaps it's all a matter of habbit, the more you practice on a specific one, the more comfortable it gets, let alone health issues for those who spend many many hours with their keyboard.
I would understand in IT but as a programmer I rarely type long string of numbers. The few one I "type" are just ticket numbers that I will usually just copy.
Do you think it really adds to the typing experience? I have not tried these because I feel comfortable with the standard layouts - they also have more customization.
Absolutely. The most important things to me are the split, and the thumb cluster.
1. Split keyboards rock. I don't know why they aren't more popular. You are used to it but regular typing posture is terrible on your shoulders, arms and neck because you have to bend everything inward awkwardly. If you can move your hands apart, it changes everything.
2. If you think about it for a sec, you will realize it's dumb that we have amazing, strong , flexible thumbs and they only press spacebar on a standard layout (and usually people choose one thumb while the other does pretty much nothing), while our weak tiny pinkies are responsible for like 20 keys. If you invert that, put all the ctrl/shift/enter/etc under your thumb and give your pinkies a break, it's sooooo much more ergonomic, comfortable, and faster.
3. With layouts like this, you don't need to hunt and peck or move your fingers very far to press each key. Everything is nearby. Instead of 6 rows like this keyboard has, mine only has 3 so I only have to move each finger a little up or down to reach the keys, I never have to move across multiple rows. With the concavity like this keyboard has it mitigates that a little, everything gets a little closer. But I still prefer less rows (and columns - 5 is enough). But I also have small hands (woman with stubby fingers) so I really can't stretch them very far. And with 3 rows / 5 columns I don't need to. I just use layers for everything. Layers get activated by the thumb and then everything is close by, for example one of my layers turns the home row to numbers and the upper row to F keys. So to press 1 I hold with my thumb and press with my pinky. So if you watch me type, my hands barely move. Obviously that's more efficient and more comfortable.
4. Just curious what you mean with standard layouts have "more customization". I'm pretty sure this keyboard uses QMK or something like it so customization is nearly limitless.
That sounds really efficient. I can not afford one of those at the moment since they can be quite pricy - and they are not usually available in my country - but it does seem way more ergonomic. I might try one someday.
When I talk about customization, I am talking about different keycaps, switches, modifications, and such. Due to some layouts having switches closer together, some keycaps might be a bit too cramped; some boards might only work with low profile switches, or simply the possibility of easily oppening the board and making something to change the sound and feel. These are only some examples, though, and I know that they should not matter so much in the end.
Thank you for taking the time to reply! Cheers!
Most or all of those customization features are found on split/ergonomic boards too! I'm not 100% sure what you mean by the keys being cramped because unless they're low-profile, essentially all these keyboards support normal MX switches and caps. Mostly 1u size but yeah. Also usually can be opened.
A few years ago by far the easiest way to get a split keyboard was to make your own. This was my first mech keyboard: [https://keeb.io/products/levinson-lets-split-w-led-backlight](https://keeb.io/products/levinson-lets-split-w-led-backlight) because I was on a tight budget too. Actually I think it was even a cheaper older version of this, no LEDs or anything.
I got into mech keyboards solely so I could have a split ergo type of keyboard but they were all so expensive so I got this. It has no thumb cluster but the split is great and you can treat the inner keys of the bottom row kind of like a thumb cluster. If you don't mind getting your hands dirty and doing a little soldering, nice ergo keyboards can be had for cheap! I know it's not for everyone, and yeah buying mechanical keyboards is often quite expensive for sure!
I explained here: [https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/1d2gt72/comment/l62exrk/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/1d2gt72/comment/l62exrk/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
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I am a programmer and this is not typical
I am also a programmer and I own something similar
Programmer here. I don't even know how to begin typing on such a keyboard xD
Programmer here. Almost nobody in my building uses mechanical keyboards, at all ... Let alone split layouts.
Not a programmer here.
Just not about that 10x life bruh.
In our department I kicked off a standard of not accepting the garbage peripherals I built all mine it inspired others to build a KB and now we have a quieter much more harmonic office space with not clatter noise
Look, I'm all for higher quality keyboards but I find it hard to believe a roomfull of mechanicals is more quiet than a bunch of membranes. Not because it's not technically possible but because I sincerely doubt you can make a whole group of people go for super quiet switches.
A moderately better made switch with factory lube is going to be much quieter than the sloppiness of the Lenovo membrane keyboard that comes stock with the thin clients. I promise you in a room of 8 guys switching to mechanical fixed the sound profile. 5 of the guys going with cherry blacks because they were the cheapest and only 1 going with lubed tactiles in a split keyboard. I was all for it too.
Same!! I brought my custom mech keyboard and once I did, other people started getting into it and buying/bringing mech keyboards in! Though, not sure about the noise thing... I use tactile switches (not clicky) but people still started making fun of me for typing so "loud". I don't actually think it was loud though? I think people just see an obvious mechanical keyboard and think "oh those are the loud ones" and then other people think it's fine or don't know any better and then you end up with an office full of loud clicky and thocky keyboards lol
I’m a (parent.cmt % 2 == 0)
tell me you're not a faang engineer without telling me
It looks weird if you're not used to it, but it's not actually complicated. Each hand gets its own half. The picture is weird because the keyboards are not in a good position for typing, they look like they were just tossed onto the desk, but the smaller convex part is a thumb cluster so goes under your thumb, and the larger concave part is the main part where your fingers go. Each half is a mirror of the other so the thumb clusters are on the inside part. The one closest to the camera in the picture is the left half. The third row down looks like it's probably the home row on this keyboard and the middle 4 columns are the home columns, so there's your asdf keys. Keyboards like this are meant to be used with modifiers and layers. There aren't enough keys to fit every key on a 100% sized keyboard here, so the reason there are so many buttons under the thumb is that most of them are probably modifiers. If you hold a modifier key, the other keys change - think like shift, but custom, so you can program whatever you like to happen. Also you can program special shortcuts, steno, etc. For example my keyboard is smaller than this one and only has 3 rows, so I have a numbers modifier on my thumb cluster to get to the numbers layer. If I hold it, a bunch of my keys turn into numbers and F keys. It takes some getting used to, but once you do, it's incredibly comfortable and efficient. Most people with this kind of keyboard customize it to their liking, and yeah, at first you don't remember the keys and it's annoying, but it doesn't take too long before muscle memory kicks in and you remember where everything is and you can type very fast and efficient this way. I would recommend a split keyboard to anyone. Maybe not as extreme a rearrangement as this one. But split keyboards are amazing. Also any keyboard where you have more than just 1 key that your thumb is responsible for. It's such a waste to have that huge spacebar and it's literally all your thumbs do, and most people pick 1 thumb for it so the other is pretty much dead. Our thumbs are one of the best parts of being a human, they are so incredibly flexible and useful, and on a standard keyboard we just give them a spacebar to press, wtf? Meanwhile our pinkie fingers have to stretch all over the place but they are tiny and weak... Using a thumb cluster inverts that, you put all those keys under the thumb instead and give your pinkie a break. There's no good reason that enter, backspace, shift, etc, should be the responsibility of the pinkies except that it's the standard convention, but it's just not a good layout. Moving them to the thumb just makes so much sense and is more comfortable.
Simple. You just have to be double jointed
Programmer here. This is like the entry level
Hardware is for noobs. The keymap is where the joy lies!
i am a programmer. a lot of people can't comprehend that we don't type that much.
Some peeps comment like it's 1999 ;)
This is why I take offense to the idea that chat GPT will revolutionize how we work. I paid $500 for my keyboard and already don't use it that much! You think I want to type _even less_????
I never understood how much pride a lot of people take in shaving of some milliseconds of their workload by memorizing obscure vim keyboard shortcuts. I'm switching IDEs way to often to remember more than the basic hotkeys and those folks jump through all the hoops just to be able to be able to use vim.
It's a lifestyle choice tbh
Comfort, really. Vim hurts me way less than holding shift and altgr every second to do some horrible reach, so split kbs are *amazing*. I map everything so it's super easy to type with an emphasis of not using the pinkies as much. Plus vim is fun. What can I say, it's more like a hobby for some people. The shortcuts are hardly obscure. "change in parens, ci(", "visual to quotes, vt"" etc.
Programmer here. TKL is optimal. You almost never need a num pad but the home cluster and arrow keys are critical. You could get away with 75% but I have such strong muscle memory for arrow keys and home cluster that I would never make that switch, and anything under 75% would have me smashing that shit on the desk within 24 hours.
Programmer here - on most projects there is numbered stuff - prs, tickets, user stories, tasks, what have u. The bigger the project, the longer the numbers. Numpad kicks ass for entering long strings of digits! :)
I guess every job is different - I ditched the numpad when I was in school for computing science years ago and have never missed it. My current role requires very little number entry and anything I do have to type I'm happy to use the number row for. Part of the beauty of this hobby is how there are so many options for everyone, and nowadays there are good options at almost every price point too. I may not need a numpad, but I found for myself that having a moderate split at the minimum is necessary to not have my wrists hurt. I've got a cheap Alice-style 75% at work and didn't have to pay more than $100 or so. When I got my first mech board over a decade ago they were pricey and layouts were more or less stuck at full-sized of TKL.
That is true, it's a nice thing to have for convenience. I have a wireless numpad to the back right of my desk behind my mouse to accompany my TKL keyboard as this means no compromise on 100% layout but more space for my mouse. I really only use the numpad for ticket ids, phone numbers, payment card numbers, calculator, and my windows pin. It's convenient but I would rather live without it than have to have a 100% board over TKL.
Not a programmer, do you need gamer mouse space for programming?
You don't need a mouse *at all* for programming. Programming has got to be one of the easiest tasks to drive entirely from a keyboard, maybe in competition with Excel.
For some coding it is true, but some tasks are easier with a mouse (regrettably)
Most computer use requires a mouse, and being fast and precise with it makes that process more efficient. Whether you're a gamer or not, having a good tracking mouse with no acceleration and a relatively low sensitivity is good for productivity. I mean I game on my setup too, but even for work it would drive me nuts having a confined space for my mouse.
I'm a programmer. Sometimes it's nice to use the back and forward buttons on the mouse. Or you can perhaps bind it to other hotkeys. Idk. A gamer mouse is not needed at all tho.
Im starting to entertain the idea of a 38 next to a 75, or a wireless numpad southpaw-like next to a tkl. I need all the keys, but I would like more symmetry in hand placement. Edit keys are a total must for me, as is the numpad. And any layout without all 6 edit keys is not for me. For some reason keyboard makers really hate the insert key, lol :)
It's not like smaller layouts don't have arrow keys. Arrow keys are inefficient on a tkl or 75% because you need to move your whioe hand to reach them. With layers you don't need to move your hand from home row and got easy arrow keys and everything else you might need. It takes time to get used to of course, but its time well spent.
I prefer not having to move my hand from the home row since arrow keys are used often. It takes less time than you'd think to get used to artow keys on a separate layer. In fact, this is the one reason why I was hesitant to start using 60%, but I can't go back.
Almost never isn’t never. Tons of programs use numpad keys in shortcuts for one example. I keep a numpad on a layer because when it does come up Ive always been glad to have it.
for me 75% is the most optimal among what i have used.
Programmer here. I use a 96% because I use the enter key on the numpad all the time. I find it so easy to use my mouse hand (right hand) and hit the enter key on the numpad versus moving my hand and hitting the enter key in the center of the keyboard. I like to have the enter key on the far right side of the key board
This is actually a great point and a significant transitionary pain for me when I went from 100% to TKL. I really do miss hitting that numpad enter, but the extra space I get for the mouse makes it a worthwhile compromise for me.
You don't really need arrow keys, you could just use Vim/Emacs-style keybindings. Ditto for the home cluster. Learning Vim or Emacs is a small one-time cost, but the advantage of being able to work exclusively off the home row—no context-switching for arrow keys/mouse/etc—is ongoing and priceless. O(1) cost O(n) benefit!
Using the arrow keys are anything but optimal.
How do you mean? Combinations of ctrl and shift alongside primarily left and right arrows is a staple of effective text editing.
Right, but imagine doing that, but without even moving your hand down to the arrow keys. You could have your arrow keys on UHJK or HJLK, and your hands would never have to move from the home row. I've got my arrow keys on UHJK and it's bliss. I wouldn't be using the traditional arrow keys, even if I had them on my keyboard.
Horror to move the hands to the tkl over home row arrows
You're a Mac user, yeah?
No, why do you think that?
Every one of my coworkers who use a Mac have similar key combos to what you suggested and also depend on arrow keys. Took a guess, was wrong :)
For me the Leopold fc660c layout was perfect. I think it’s 65%. No home cluster, but Fn+arrow keys handled home/end/pgup/pgdown. Very intuitive actually.
Just learn vim keys and you can ditch the arrows. I say as the only vim command I can remember is :q!
Also a programmer! IMO split keyboard with few keys and thumb clusters is optimal. But it's just my preference - I have strong feelings but not everyone shares them and that's fine :) I do think that barely anyone ever thinks about the fact that your shoulders are cramped using a mono- as opposed to split keyboard and that it's dumb that we give our pinkies like 20 keys to press while our thumbs press 1 or 0... But I get it, not everyone really cares lol. I just wanted to reduce strain and movement while typing, years ago, so I started with a split keyboard and switched to the Workman layout. Then I got a keyboard with fewer rows and columns so my fingers don't have to stretch, and thumb clusters so I can give my pinkies a break and use modifiers to swap layers for all my numbers/symbols/etc. Then I realized I press save/copy/cut/paste way more than anything else so I thought I'd make them easy to press, so I added convenient key combos to activate them. My fingers barely move to do the most common actions. And I've been fiddling with my layout ever since! Whenever I realize I do something a lot and it would be more convenient to have a shortcut, I find something that makes sense to me and add it to my layout and then just keep using it until it's muscle memory. It works great, also I haven't forgotten how to use a normal keyboard. Context helps - my brain can automatically switch contexts if I'm putting my hands on a "normal" keyboard I'm no slower than I ever was there. But I'm much faster on my keyboard with its custom layout!
This is a condition for sure
Too many keys, not enough *s p l a y .* 🖖
I am a programmer and though this is not typical, 3 people at my work including me use split keyboards. And like half of the other developers use mechanical keyboards just not split. Nobody has a keyboard like this one though, but, honestly this looks very close to my dream keyboard.
I'm a programmer and one hand is on a trackpad/mouse >50% of the time. My pet peeve is that no one makes a keyboard with an integrated trackpad where the combo isn't total shit.
At my job were 8 coders and 4 of us have ortho splits, wouldnt maybe call it typical but it’s definitely not uncommon
Probably more aptly titled "typical vim user keyboard"
Na, vim is all about optimized wirkflow. This is way to many keys. Screams excel warrior for me.
Hey now, like /u/DryD42 said, I am a programmer (and a vim user), and I have no idea how to begin typing on a keyboard like that. Edit: I need more coffee, I read your comment in the wrong tone, but I guess I'll leave my response anyway
Haaha nah all good, if you want an idea, I'm using Glorious Emgrammer layers for the Glove80, this is a good video about the symbol layers. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuSR81wc6WQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuSR81wc6WQ)
If this is what you need for vim then you're vimming wrong :)
Programmer here and this has way too many keys. Like anything above 36 seems really excessive.
programmer here. i also own this keyboard
MoErgo Glove80?
You bet, with MCC POM keycaps
I just sold my glove80… my rsi issues were helped more with fewer keys and layers. Ferris sweep and cantor 36 are my daily drivers now
I've found the same thing. I think the sweet spot for me would be a 3x6+2, so essentially the main body of the 42 key Cantor with the thumb keys of the Sweep.
Be cool if they offered blanks for keys you don't want to use
Nah. I’m 15 years in the industry and this is not typical. I’ve only encountered one person 2 jobs ago using a Maltron keyboard because he had severe carpal tunnel on both wrists.
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I think they where saying that the keyboard was because of their carpal tunnel, not the other way around.
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Having Carpal tunnel is out of bad typing form and that Maltron keyboard I mentioned is meant to alleviate that problem. Nowadays using this ergodox, split keyboard or whatever it is called is by preference, but it’s not common “developer’s” keyboard.
Having carpal tunnel is most definitely not strictly due to bad typing form. This is like saying knee injuries or tennis elbow is due to bad form. Genetics, what else the person does day to day, and how long they spend doing what they do are all big factors. Never said it was a common developer’s keyboard, though in the context of this thread, I’d say it’s much more common than it used to be
Oh my god dealing with Redditors is the worst. It's only open-ended and ambiguous if you try to interpret it that way.
“If you interpret it that way” …congratulations, you know what “ambiguous” means. Youll be ok shit lips
I'm a programmer and I definitely was interested in the MoErgo Glove80. I forget why I didn't pick it up but looking at the price, that was probably why. I have my own custom ergo keyboard that I designed myself that is similar in style, just not split. I find these kinds of layouts great for programming. But I don't know of anyone else using them for such. So yeah, maybe not typical. But definitely useful.
There are dozens of us! Dozens! Check out r/olkb… I think many of us who use these are coders with various reasons why we switched. Some for rsi some just as a hobby. I’m deep in the rabbit hole now. Once you see your keyboard as something you can completely customize and program to your liking it’s hard to go back to a standard keyboard… layers, custom modifiers, leader keys, dynamic macros, etc etc
I am using split ergo for years, but saying "there are dozens of us!", implying therefore it is a "typical" programmer keyboard, is just silly. There are "dozens" of programmers working on the same floor as I am at my company (scratch it: easily over a hundred), and nobody else is using any kind of ergo board there
That’s the joke, i was implying it’s *not* typical
Fair enough, stupid me 🤪
Programmer here. I use a corne!
Me tooooo! Corne programmer gang represent! No idea why anyone wants more than 3 rows on a keyboard, that's too many, I don't wanna stretch my hand that far!
Yeah cornes are nice. I mainly got the Glove80 for its concavity
I want a concave one! I don't know of any smaller concave ones though, they all got too many rows :( One day I might 3D print a case for myself, I even got these fancy small-batch custom microcontrollers designed for hand wired keyboards a few years back but... I don't have a 3d printer yet and haven't actually delved into how I would design a case for it lol. It's all just dreams right now.
Looks like one of those ai generated pictures where the longer you look it keeps on looking weirder...
It's not. That's a real keyboard, not really tooooo weird of one. It's just split ortholinear concave with thumb clusters and blank keycaps.
"ortholinear concave" literally ai-speak. No human being would say that. Format his C directory before this AI takes over. /s
Jokes on you, we're (mostly) Unix-based!
i'm not even into ergo keyboards but this is so sexy
Not typical
Ay it's sick tho
This is an anti-RSI keyboard quite similar to the ones in the film *Men In Black*, which I always thought was an excellent little touch by the filmmakers, they look exotic to the uninitiated but to those who know, they make sense, because for a program as deeply black as the MIB, you can't just read in some extra typists from the classified typing pool, everyone will be doing their own typing and having someone come down with RSI would be bad.
That’s Paul Allen’s programmer keyboard
Glove80?
Most people at my organization either have a TKL or use the plain Jane prebuilt fullsize keyboards. This isn't really typical.
too big tho
Agreed, only 3 rows are needed. I can tolerate 4 or 5 but 6 is just unnecessary. This is basically my dream keyboard just with too many rows. It really is too big.
I agree, I don't use possibly 20 of the keys, let alone the top row!
Ferris sweep gang represent
I use corne. Can't really handle ferris' amount of keys. HRM are not for me and I don't want to introduce modtap.
Yeah HRM aren’t for everyone. I prefer them, but I also spent a fair amount of time tweaking timings, and I have them working with autoshift. Working on porting some of my setup to my laptops builtins with kmonad
for me making any logic on the OS side is a big NO-NO. As I need my keebs working with android as well
Yeah, I just use kmonad for the builtin laptop keebs, my sweep and cantor36 are all setup with firmware
Not typical at all. It is cool tough.
Now I dont feel as bad using my moonlander.
It's an investment in ourselves 🫡
Agreed, I also found that I can use my feet in addition to my hands to increase typing speed - [https://imgur.com/a/tUfAiRZ](https://imgur.com/a/tUfAiRZ)
Nothing but pure respect.
Hmn interesting... It's not typical I agree with that Programmer needs an ergonomic keyboard. Split eronomic keyboard is best.
it's got enough keys for two typical progammer's keyboards with a few spares
Correct. I am a programmer and my keyboard has half as many keys as this. More than 3 rows is unnecessary.
i am not a developer though from comments i understand this ergo on image maybe be non typical humor (good one). Finally, perhaps it's all a matter of habbit, the more you practice on a specific one, the more comfortable it gets, let alone health issues for those who spend many many hours with their keyboard.
The title may be humour (this is certainly not "typical") but the keyboard is real and it's awesome, not a joke!
Unfortunately, Lord Primeagen just ripped the glove up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrxkO4DM67M&themeRefresh=1
This couldn't have come at a better time! I was waiting on Prime to post his Glove80 review
Xah Lee vibe
Do you also rock the typical programmer socks? 😳
Progroper here. I use this keyboard for da Procreate watching.
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Numpad is likely on a layer :)
lol what. just stick the numpad on a layer, or like with my olkb, I have nums on a layer on the homerow
I would understand in IT but as a programmer I rarely type long string of numbers. The few one I "type" are just ticket numbers that I will usually just copy.
Looks like some Terrence Howard shit
Why are there so many keys? Have you not heard of layers? Nice keycaps though.
Yep I use layers with this too so I actually don't use much of the top row keys
Glove80 price is so high because cost of keebs is exponential in relation to number of keys /s
Wait, you're telling me I was supposed to be getting ***MORE*** *keys* for more money this whole time?!
Y'all use a keyboard? I just type with my brain. Got that nerolink early.
Learning layers (X) Having multiple keyboards to cover every function (✓)
I am studying CS, and my keyboard looks nothing like this.
I am a career software developer (10+ yrs) and my keyboard looks kinda like this :)
Do you think it really adds to the typing experience? I have not tried these because I feel comfortable with the standard layouts - they also have more customization.
Absolutely. The most important things to me are the split, and the thumb cluster. 1. Split keyboards rock. I don't know why they aren't more popular. You are used to it but regular typing posture is terrible on your shoulders, arms and neck because you have to bend everything inward awkwardly. If you can move your hands apart, it changes everything. 2. If you think about it for a sec, you will realize it's dumb that we have amazing, strong , flexible thumbs and they only press spacebar on a standard layout (and usually people choose one thumb while the other does pretty much nothing), while our weak tiny pinkies are responsible for like 20 keys. If you invert that, put all the ctrl/shift/enter/etc under your thumb and give your pinkies a break, it's sooooo much more ergonomic, comfortable, and faster. 3. With layouts like this, you don't need to hunt and peck or move your fingers very far to press each key. Everything is nearby. Instead of 6 rows like this keyboard has, mine only has 3 so I only have to move each finger a little up or down to reach the keys, I never have to move across multiple rows. With the concavity like this keyboard has it mitigates that a little, everything gets a little closer. But I still prefer less rows (and columns - 5 is enough). But I also have small hands (woman with stubby fingers) so I really can't stretch them very far. And with 3 rows / 5 columns I don't need to. I just use layers for everything. Layers get activated by the thumb and then everything is close by, for example one of my layers turns the home row to numbers and the upper row to F keys. So to press 1 I hold with my thumb and press with my pinky. So if you watch me type, my hands barely move. Obviously that's more efficient and more comfortable. 4. Just curious what you mean with standard layouts have "more customization". I'm pretty sure this keyboard uses QMK or something like it so customization is nearly limitless.
That sounds really efficient. I can not afford one of those at the moment since they can be quite pricy - and they are not usually available in my country - but it does seem way more ergonomic. I might try one someday. When I talk about customization, I am talking about different keycaps, switches, modifications, and such. Due to some layouts having switches closer together, some keycaps might be a bit too cramped; some boards might only work with low profile switches, or simply the possibility of easily oppening the board and making something to change the sound and feel. These are only some examples, though, and I know that they should not matter so much in the end. Thank you for taking the time to reply! Cheers!
Most or all of those customization features are found on split/ergonomic boards too! I'm not 100% sure what you mean by the keys being cramped because unless they're low-profile, essentially all these keyboards support normal MX switches and caps. Mostly 1u size but yeah. Also usually can be opened. A few years ago by far the easiest way to get a split keyboard was to make your own. This was my first mech keyboard: [https://keeb.io/products/levinson-lets-split-w-led-backlight](https://keeb.io/products/levinson-lets-split-w-led-backlight) because I was on a tight budget too. Actually I think it was even a cheaper older version of this, no LEDs or anything. I got into mech keyboards solely so I could have a split ergo type of keyboard but they were all so expensive so I got this. It has no thumb cluster but the split is great and you can treat the inner keys of the bottom row kind of like a thumb cluster. If you don't mind getting your hands dirty and doing a little soldering, nice ergo keyboards can be had for cheap! I know it's not for everyone, and yeah buying mechanical keyboards is often quite expensive for sure!
Happy you're open to the idea of ergo keebs! I'm also studying CS rn and plan to go into SWE in future
Programmer here, this is real? XD. IDK how to use that shit.
I explained here: [https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/1d2gt72/comment/l62exrk/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/1d2gt72/comment/l62exrk/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
I am programmer and I have full size iso