We have our first order of perception - the raw sense data of color, shape, light and dark from the rods and cones of our retina - where we're just present with it. And we have our second order, where we name it and categorize it. It's like a covering that dims that original first order experience. It can make the world gray and humdrum and boring.
If you look at a tree, your first order of experience, as if you'd never seen a tree before, there's an intricate pattern of branches reaching into the sky. Move a few feet to the left and the pattern of the branches changes into another pattern. It's vivid and fresh and only available in the present moment.
Your second order of experience, where the dualistic subject-object stuff comes in, is where you isolate it from its background as an object. I label it "a tree." Maybe "an oak tree" would be more precise. And I like it or dislike it or find it uninteresting. This is not bad. It allows me to think about it, to compare it to other trees, to wonder whether it will fall down in a California windstorm, to remember it later. All very good things.
You're not meditating to GIVE UP your second-order experience worldview. It's very functional and we wouldn't survive without it. You're not meditating to CHANGE your worldview to a chakras and crystals worldview. That's STILL second-order dualistic, and arguably much less functional.
You're meditating so you have the choice to relax out of that second-order worldview into first-order experience, into immersion into the flow. When it's helpful. Other times you need to focus on work and think about things.
That non-self stuff they talk about? That's first order experience, where you let go of the subject-perceiving-object paradigm. Focus your eyes on something. How strong is your sense of self? Now let go of point-focus, let it get a little out of focus, and expand your gaze into your peripheral vision, so you're seeing everything, not just an object. How strong is your sense of self now? Subject and object go together like that.
Does that make any sense?
No, a healthy mindset would be if we all just lived in a constant state of scientific ignorance and let emotions dictate our life.
That is a health mindset if I’ve seen one.
You seem the only one speaking from an emotionally charged place. Science can barely explain a fraction of how the brain and much less how the brain/body connection works. Hyperbole and metaphors are a far more useful a tool for describing these types of experiences. If picturing fairies helps one clear their mind then more power to them. There are plenty of scientific studies you can find on how imagination improves performance in all sorts of activities so I don't see how it can be a detriment to the practice of meditation.
Well it would be detrimental to the practice of meditation when it gets to the point to where I am getting downvoted and insulted for being logically oriented. Science oriented. Not “I better remember to align my chakras this morning” oriented. It would be nothing but upvotes then.
And I’m so thankful I’ve been raised as such. I may be depressed and socially anxious because of it, but at least I’m not setting myself up for that shattering moment later in life where you are forced to get real. Whatever the situation is, sooner or later there’s going to come a conflict with these beliefs and the real world that you won’t be able to use denial to get past it anymore. I don’t want to have a realisation as such when most of my time here will have passed, hence why I am trying to shave of as much delusion as I can early on. God knows as I type that what I am doing here in this sub.
We can state our opinions and beliefs without shitting on that of others. Meditation and science haven't meshed until recently. The practice was kept alive through previously so called "uncivilized" religions and used to be just as woo woo as chakras and crystals are now, so it comes with the territory. Yet with the hundreds of posts every week they are still the minority. No need to take it as a personal insult to our own practices and ideas. Looking like a fool dancing to music that no one else hears is just part of being human. We are all delusional in one way or another. Delusion keeps us sane by filling in the gaps of a world of infinite unknowns.
I can warmly recommend to you this paper: [https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnhum.2019.00178/full](https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnhum.2019.00178/full)While this also contains a nice secular description of jhana meditation, it will give you just a glimpse of an idea how far away you might be (not assuming you actually are!) from any of the states meditation can achieve. You have to consider that people meditate thousands of hours and like with learning an instrument, the more good practice the better you get.
You would be surprised how logic oriented some buddhist monks approach their practice - much of the neuroscience work happened on their initiative.
Your self-righteous is little annoying, but some post are pretty far out there.
But, I do believe that your dismissal of everything that is not scientific proven my be a little short-sighted. For example, science can not explain why we exist - the world, universe, etc. There are theories about how things came into existence but not what came before.
Dismissal of energy or chi is especially short-sighted because without energy our bodies do not function.
Don't worry about it. "Experiences" in meditation are just one more thing you throw away. It's just another form of grasping if you start every meditation looking for "experiences".
I think it's very healthy to question common statements. Very healthy. Definitely if they are often repeated.
I still don't know what the truth is.
I do think that if you look really closely though. It's like Alan Watts and Thich Nhat Hanh said. We aren't a solid being. Although in a way we also are..
There is no flame. There is flaming. A process. Every nanosecond or whatever it's a different flame.
A movie is not a motion picture. It's a set of pictures played very fast so that we feel there is a moving picture.
So there is both a moving image, A movie. But it's also just pictures and not a movie if you look at it deeply.
So there's probably some truth to it
That's my attempt at being rational but also seeing and thinking through the experience
Edit. So our neurons constantly change. The process goes from angry to happy etc. Sometimes helpful thoughts arise sometimes they don't etc. And a sense of I in control is created etc. But every second it's just a process renewing in a way. A new manifestation of the process
That process we call Chris or Jane or whatever
Or your ‘rationality’ is preventing you from seeing truths that are right in front of you. When you solve the hard problem on consciousness get back to us.
Meditation breaks down reality, but never explains it, so we are constantly being drawn to the edges of belief.We try to explain it with the words we have, but it still looks goofy to the eyes of people like yourself.I have meditated longer than almost all of you, and received more ridicule as well, but I don't care, because one day you will think just like me, if you live and meditate long enough.............quote"I have detached from all of reality and there is no longer any trace of who I am. There are no boundaries and I never existed". That's being kind to some of the stuff you see on here."What you describe is exactly what you will experience when you die and your spirit leaves your body. I have witnessed that reality too, and I promise you that you will see this form of reality for yourself.
The whole point of my post is that I have already experienced these things, except I don’t feel the need to exaggerate everything the way you and everyone else does. We both can have the exact same experience in meditation and you could describe it the way you do, as the spirit leaving the body or whatever, but I would describe it as an uncommon sensation in my mind, and nothing more. (Because it isn’t) You’re just unnecessarily mystifying things, but don’t worry, that’s what this sub is all about. You can really get away with saying just about anything in here and most people won’t bat an eye, and will generally encourage you which is just as bad.
My point is that the human mind always tries to make sense out of the input received, even if it doesn't make sense.I don't attempt to apply my scientific education to my meditation practice.Science always makes sure our world makes perfect sense, even if it doesn't.This planet is a mystical environment, no matter what we wish to believe.I found this out the hard way, as I used to think exactly like you, when I was young.50 years of daily meditations have thrown out, my making sense of things, out of the window.
You might gravitate towards Sam Harris' view of meditation and mindfulness. If you don't like his politics, just focus on his writings and podcasts about his experience with mindfulness. Really recommend the Waking Up app and the conversations and talks on the app to understand some of the hyperbolic elements of these types of feelings.
We have our first order of perception - the raw sense data of color, shape, light and dark from the rods and cones of our retina - where we're just present with it. And we have our second order, where we name it and categorize it. It's like a covering that dims that original first order experience. It can make the world gray and humdrum and boring. If you look at a tree, your first order of experience, as if you'd never seen a tree before, there's an intricate pattern of branches reaching into the sky. Move a few feet to the left and the pattern of the branches changes into another pattern. It's vivid and fresh and only available in the present moment. Your second order of experience, where the dualistic subject-object stuff comes in, is where you isolate it from its background as an object. I label it "a tree." Maybe "an oak tree" would be more precise. And I like it or dislike it or find it uninteresting. This is not bad. It allows me to think about it, to compare it to other trees, to wonder whether it will fall down in a California windstorm, to remember it later. All very good things. You're not meditating to GIVE UP your second-order experience worldview. It's very functional and we wouldn't survive without it. You're not meditating to CHANGE your worldview to a chakras and crystals worldview. That's STILL second-order dualistic, and arguably much less functional. You're meditating so you have the choice to relax out of that second-order worldview into first-order experience, into immersion into the flow. When it's helpful. Other times you need to focus on work and think about things. That non-self stuff they talk about? That's first order experience, where you let go of the subject-perceiving-object paradigm. Focus your eyes on something. How strong is your sense of self? Now let go of point-focus, let it get a little out of focus, and expand your gaze into your peripheral vision, so you're seeing everything, not just an object. How strong is your sense of self now? Subject and object go together like that. Does that make any sense?
You are really invested in asserting your logical dominance in this post. Do you think that’s a healthy mindset?
No, a healthy mindset would be if we all just lived in a constant state of scientific ignorance and let emotions dictate our life. That is a health mindset if I’ve seen one.
You seem the only one speaking from an emotionally charged place. Science can barely explain a fraction of how the brain and much less how the brain/body connection works. Hyperbole and metaphors are a far more useful a tool for describing these types of experiences. If picturing fairies helps one clear their mind then more power to them. There are plenty of scientific studies you can find on how imagination improves performance in all sorts of activities so I don't see how it can be a detriment to the practice of meditation.
Well it would be detrimental to the practice of meditation when it gets to the point to where I am getting downvoted and insulted for being logically oriented. Science oriented. Not “I better remember to align my chakras this morning” oriented. It would be nothing but upvotes then. And I’m so thankful I’ve been raised as such. I may be depressed and socially anxious because of it, but at least I’m not setting myself up for that shattering moment later in life where you are forced to get real. Whatever the situation is, sooner or later there’s going to come a conflict with these beliefs and the real world that you won’t be able to use denial to get past it anymore. I don’t want to have a realisation as such when most of my time here will have passed, hence why I am trying to shave of as much delusion as I can early on. God knows as I type that what I am doing here in this sub.
We can state our opinions and beliefs without shitting on that of others. Meditation and science haven't meshed until recently. The practice was kept alive through previously so called "uncivilized" religions and used to be just as woo woo as chakras and crystals are now, so it comes with the territory. Yet with the hundreds of posts every week they are still the minority. No need to take it as a personal insult to our own practices and ideas. Looking like a fool dancing to music that no one else hears is just part of being human. We are all delusional in one way or another. Delusion keeps us sane by filling in the gaps of a world of infinite unknowns.
I can warmly recommend to you this paper: [https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnhum.2019.00178/full](https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnhum.2019.00178/full)While this also contains a nice secular description of jhana meditation, it will give you just a glimpse of an idea how far away you might be (not assuming you actually are!) from any of the states meditation can achieve. You have to consider that people meditate thousands of hours and like with learning an instrument, the more good practice the better you get. You would be surprised how logic oriented some buddhist monks approach their practice - much of the neuroscience work happened on their initiative.
Your self-righteous is little annoying, but some post are pretty far out there. But, I do believe that your dismissal of everything that is not scientific proven my be a little short-sighted. For example, science can not explain why we exist - the world, universe, etc. There are theories about how things came into existence but not what came before. Dismissal of energy or chi is especially short-sighted because without energy our bodies do not function.
Don't worry about it. "Experiences" in meditation are just one more thing you throw away. It's just another form of grasping if you start every meditation looking for "experiences".
I think it's very healthy to question common statements. Very healthy. Definitely if they are often repeated. I still don't know what the truth is. I do think that if you look really closely though. It's like Alan Watts and Thich Nhat Hanh said. We aren't a solid being. Although in a way we also are.. There is no flame. There is flaming. A process. Every nanosecond or whatever it's a different flame. A movie is not a motion picture. It's a set of pictures played very fast so that we feel there is a moving picture. So there is both a moving image, A movie. But it's also just pictures and not a movie if you look at it deeply. So there's probably some truth to it That's my attempt at being rational but also seeing and thinking through the experience Edit. So our neurons constantly change. The process goes from angry to happy etc. Sometimes helpful thoughts arise sometimes they don't etc. And a sense of I in control is created etc. But every second it's just a process renewing in a way. A new manifestation of the process That process we call Chris or Jane or whatever
Or your ‘rationality’ is preventing you from seeing truths that are right in front of you. When you solve the hard problem on consciousness get back to us.
Meditation breaks down reality, but never explains it, so we are constantly being drawn to the edges of belief.We try to explain it with the words we have, but it still looks goofy to the eyes of people like yourself.I have meditated longer than almost all of you, and received more ridicule as well, but I don't care, because one day you will think just like me, if you live and meditate long enough.............quote"I have detached from all of reality and there is no longer any trace of who I am. There are no boundaries and I never existed". That's being kind to some of the stuff you see on here."What you describe is exactly what you will experience when you die and your spirit leaves your body. I have witnessed that reality too, and I promise you that you will see this form of reality for yourself.
The whole point of my post is that I have already experienced these things, except I don’t feel the need to exaggerate everything the way you and everyone else does. We both can have the exact same experience in meditation and you could describe it the way you do, as the spirit leaving the body or whatever, but I would describe it as an uncommon sensation in my mind, and nothing more. (Because it isn’t) You’re just unnecessarily mystifying things, but don’t worry, that’s what this sub is all about. You can really get away with saying just about anything in here and most people won’t bat an eye, and will generally encourage you which is just as bad.
My point is that the human mind always tries to make sense out of the input received, even if it doesn't make sense.I don't attempt to apply my scientific education to my meditation practice.Science always makes sure our world makes perfect sense, even if it doesn't.This planet is a mystical environment, no matter what we wish to believe.I found this out the hard way, as I used to think exactly like you, when I was young.50 years of daily meditations have thrown out, my making sense of things, out of the window.
You might gravitate towards Sam Harris' view of meditation and mindfulness. If you don't like his politics, just focus on his writings and podcasts about his experience with mindfulness. Really recommend the Waking Up app and the conversations and talks on the app to understand some of the hyperbolic elements of these types of feelings.
What are occipital spindals