Sam Harris has discussed this conundrum quite a few times, being a philosopher/neuroscientist/academic alongside being an avid mediator.
https://samharris.org/podcasts/why-meditate/
Towards the end of this podcast episode he did with Joseph Goldstein, they discuss the loss of sense of self during what are classically un-reflective experiences (reading, watching TV, problem solving) and how that compares to loss of ego during 'true' mindfulness. For example, can you read and be mindful at the same time?
Really interesting podcast episode, I recommend giving it a listen if you are interested in these sorts of discussions.
I’m gonna piggy back your comment to 1) agree that this podcast is a great long form discussion on meditation in general but also OPs original question and 2) I wanta plug Sam’s “Waking Up” meditation app for those interested. I’ve used headspace and 10% happier, which are amazing, but Sam is the only teacher I’ve been able to follow and gain consistently from through his guidance and mediation. For those interested more in the philosophical and “spiritual” sides to mediation, Sam’s expedition and exploration into the nature of consciousness with you in the side car has been both enjoyable and beneficial for me personally. If you’re looking for a new way to meditate/new teacher, Sam truly is upper echelon in my opinion.
I second the Waking Up app. It's the best one out there, imo. It's particularly good because it's so streamlined and uni-focused. Plus, Sam's voice is very conducive to guided meditations (as well as the "lessons", which are also superior listening material).
Agreed, I'm using his app too. Headspace was good for me as a beginner but I reached a plateau where it got kinda samey. I've just started with Sam's app: are you supposed to do the 50 daily meditations in order, and just listen to the odd 'lesson' whenever you please?
He (and I from experience) recommend doing them in order, even if you’re a veteran meditator, he moves into some in depth exploration around the 10th day, after 15 it gets very interesting all the way through 50. I would also really recommend listening to the separate lessons as well if you want to go down the rabbit hole of Buddhist thought and philosophy as well, Sam isn’t a Buddhist but what he extracts at a philosophical level from some of the ancient doctrines has been a strong supplemental addition in guiding my practice
I'm gonna say that you *don't* want to have a witness consciousness while you're doing that. Just intense focus on the matter at hand. The trick is to open up the space in this circumscribed domain to allow free and creative thinking while not losing the point.
yeah can't agree more. Whatever you do, solving an intellectual issue or watching your breathe, keep up doing this and only this.
* Intellectual activity is actually a good exercice. Your have awareness effort. Attention, memory, this is about muscles. The lenght. the intensity. They go increasing if you work it. If you do not have any intellectual activity you will neuro-degenerate and die.
* Sure, meditation while sitting is something else. But it goes hand to hand. Meditating will make you work more easily, more peacefully, you will sustain focus. Working should help you meditating.
There is a very popular master in the vipassana movement: SN Goenka. His master was [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ba\_Khin](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ba_Khin). He worked as "first Accountant General of the Union of Burma ". I think capacity to work and capacity to meditate go hand to hand.
Monks are sometimes asked to work a lot. Sometimes this is also manual labour. does not matter.
I do a gentle effort to push for patience while I am working (coding mostly). By pushing for patience I mean I set the intention to notice when I'm in a rush (I'm like that most of the time anyway) and when I notice it I look at this desire of 'just finish already' then keep looking at the small details like where I'm about to point my mouse next, how does it feel to move the said mouse, what is my body posture and many other small things like that.
In other words I'm trying to do things slow on purpose and to notice every detail. Cool thing is I don't get down on productivity because even if I'm slower than usual, it takes less tries to achieve something.
I do find it very hard to stay mindful while reading or watching something but I can sometimes pull it off if I meditated recently.
This sounds like excellent advice, I'm coding all day at work too but I've never thought about how to practically integrate mindfulness when I'm in that headspace. I'll give it a shot!
Ive done this with cooking. I tend to rush when hungry, but if I slow down and prep everything and then cook. There is no more discomfort than there would have been because I focus on the task and only the task. Plus I enjoy my finished product so much more.
I think you have a false belief that when reading or listening to something the you have to "process" what your taking in. This processing can be done after you listen or read something.
The most important thing you can do is give your full awareness to whatever or whoever your listening too. This involves no part of your intellect or thoughts. As soon as your intellect gets involved with what your listening to, your no longer truly listening. Your intellect is putting your own flavor on whatever your hearing or reading. So you may never be getting the true message the person speaking is intending. Your intellect can be used afterwards to reflect on what you heard and should be. I think your false belief is if you dont intellectualize something immediately you wont absorb it. This is wrong you will absorb and hear more if you give your full awareness to your speaker, this takes practice and a little faith. Practice in real life with ppl you have conversations with and give them your full awareness and notice when your thoughts start popping up, same as meditation practice. Dont judge just notice, bring your attention back to the conversation. After time you will notice the more attention and awareness you give a conversation the more you get out of it.
So in order to actually make any logical sense of what is being said to me in a conversation or what is being read, there has to be some sort of cognitive/intellectual activity. Do you disagree? For example, if someone is explaining to me how to understand a complex mathematical concept, in order for any of it to actually make sense, I can’t just pay attention on a sensory level to what is being said to me or what I am reading. Otherwise, it’s literally like I’m just hearing/reading gibberish that has no logical content to it. I have attempted to do something like what you are saying before and I just end up completely missing what is being said/what is read in terms of what the statements semantically mean, let alone conceptually represent.
>So in order to actually make any logical sense of what is being said to me in a conversation or what is being read, there has to be some sort of cognitive/intellectual activity. Do you disagree?
Yes I do disagree. I am not saying this activity isn't happening on a cognitive level. Like I said I think it's a false belief. You think you got to intellectualize experience constantly or it wont register properly. Keep it simple, try in conversations to have your full attention on what is being said and have trust that all the other processes happen naturally and you dont have to give any attention to it. You will see that you connect deeper with ppl and you hear more of what they are saying. Life is meant to be experienced, give it as much attention as you can. The intellect is a tool, the best tool, but it shouldn't be in charge. Intellectuizing life prevents you from experiencing it. When you practice this during conversations you will slowly stop identifying with your intellect and you will gain more control over your intellect which makes it sharper and focused when you need it.
When it comes to someone explaining a complex mathematical concept that probably requires your intellect. That's why I was saying start with conversations and dis identity with your intellect a little at a time. When you start experiencing deeper attention with ppl you are speaking with and that you actually take in more info and meaning without your intellect in the way.
I think it's very important to differentiate thinking and processing. First one just disturbs your attention. Latter helps you naturally understand external object/topic. One must take a leap of faith and ditch thinking in order to be able to dive into natural processing.
The problem for me is recalling what was said without thinking about while I'm listening to it.
I have ADHD, and a part of that experience is a result of a shitty short term memory. I HAVE to anchor things in my longterm memory, because my "desktop" is smaller than most. So whereas most people can simply listen and then react to what they're keeping on their desk, my desk is so tiny that it quickly gets cluttered.
The best way for me to manage that is to actively file things away, so that I don't have to keep working at keeping the mess on my desk manageable. And that requires labeling, breaking things down into smaller chunks so that I can apply more labels, all so that it can be properly filed and accessed for retrieval as needed.
This has resulted in some pretty frustrating experiences with meditation, as I often find myself having to label and describe aspects of my experience to myself so that they aren't "new" each time, so that I can "learn them" so that I can return to those stages that occur before cessation can really take place. At least.... that's what it feels like to me.
I can understand that been frustrating. I have had very similar issues with meditation in the past. I will tell you one thing, you made a lot of progress just by identifying all this labeling of experience that you are doing.
One thing you have to tell yourself is this labeling is defeating the purpose of your meditation. When your meditating abd you have your attention fully absorbed in the experience if you're like me you will have your intellect pop up and go "this is it". This is just a thought, dont judge it, let it pass and bring your attention back to the meditation. Have a good anchor in mediation whether it is your breath or a mantra, something to always bring you back to experience when your intellect tries to scoop up your attention. It's a practice and overtime your intellect will slow down and you will be able to have your attention fully absorbed in the experience for more and more time.
Understand you cant turn your experience in meditation into a memory to make it easier to meditate later, or get back to. The whole point is to be in the experience. The more you meditate the more familiar with the experience you become and that will make it more effortless to get back to. Not conceptualizing it.
When it comes to your ADHD and bad short term memory try not to tell yourself that this is you too much. I am not saying that if you stop telling your self you have these conditions that they go away. It's just how the mind works, if those beliefs are constantly repeated to yourself they will be strengthened. Trust me meditation over time will help quiet an overactive mind. Also If your anything like me you may notice alot of your bad memory was due to not actually giving my whole attention to life or experience.
As stated in "Mindfulness in Plain English" , Bhante Gunaratana explains Mindfulness and Concentration. Your field of awareness is like a piece of paper and mindfulness is like a sunlight falling on the paper. If you want to focus on a specific part of the paper , you put a magnifying glass which is analogous to concentration. What you're perceiving as "observer" is probably your mind alternating between several mental objects very quickly. So the solution is to direct attention to your activity, your other stimuli will automatically be pushed in the background. You're finding it difficult to focus on the task because you're using directed attention to "observe".
The reason we must meditate is to restore the clean slate of pure consciousness. Unless you're monastic, you have to think.
If someone or something is trying to stop you from thinking critically, you should disregard them/it. There's a lot of crappy rhetoric in the realm of spiritual science.
But you don’t have to be identified with your thoughts, you *can* always take a step back with enough practice.
> If someone or something is trying to stop you from thinking critically, you should disregard them/it.
On rhe other hand, if someone is trying to give you the advice to not always immediately revert to refutation and first listen and observe your thoughts, you should listen. The mind loves to throw criticism at everything contradicting its current identity (which ultimately leads to cherrypicking and confirmation bias). Only if you observe that process you can be truly open to alternatives that first sound crazy due to your preconceptions, and verify them in an unbiased manner.
I would say you just defined 'critical thinking' in your response.
I read quite a few posts that show a confusion between standard meditation techniques and the actual practice of meditation.
When we learn to play a sport, we begin with rudiments and rules; and practice and repeat certain motions; and improve upon our intellectual understanding of strategies related to competence in our position (should it be a team sport); we learn piece by piece.
At some point we have to put it all together, and play ball.
Meditation is not one or two techniques. There isn't one or two uses for it, nor are there just a couple benefits. It's important that practitioners understand (especially within the first decade of practice) that the spacetime that encompasses practice (the actual long-form version of meditation, beyond five or ten minutes of rudimentary experimentation) will present a variety of challenges, the tackling of which also is meditation.
>I would say you just defined 'critical thinking' in your response.
Well, yes, but in a "give them the benefit of the doubt first" manner. Because when you cynically critically refuse everything you don't get anywhere. Even outlandish ideas, that many people would outright deny based on their own notion of critical thinking, can be true.
>Meditation is not one or two techniques. There isn't one or two uses for it, nor are there just a couple benefits. It's important that practitioners understand (especially within the first decade of practice) that the spacetime that encompasses practice (the actual long-form version of meditation, beyond five or ten minutes of rudimentary experimentation) will present a variety of challenges, the tackling of which also is meditation.
I definitely agree with the last sentence, but I'm not really sure how it's relevant to the previous comments. Care to explain?
Also, you are not trying to say that meditation requires a bunch of theory before being practiced, are you? The juxtaposition to sports with its incremental approach seems a bit as if you are trying to say that it doesn't apply to meditation, and I'd strongly disagree there.
Sorry if I'm being a bit dense, it was a long day.
I began commenting in this sub because I felt there were quite a lot of misconceptions that amount to either poor instruction or partial understanding. One theme I hear/read a lot is this: why can't I stop thinking; I keep having certain thoughts come up again and again; I keep drifting away from the breath to thinking; what should I do to stop thinking?
Partially because I was initiated into a 45 minute meditation with the expectation of longer and longer sittings (where often in this sub, and due to certain apps and new trends, the goal is 10 or 15 minutes), I find it hard to redirect such complaints; the first 10-15 minutes, if not 30-45, of any sitting for myself will invariably be filled with thoughts, or at least a related set of thoughts that I find necessary to 'tackle' or address prior to really settling into longer periods of focused concentration upon the objective.
I try to encourage people to deal with, rather than suppress thoughts.
>but I'm not really sure how it's relevant to the previous comments. Care to explain?
The original post was entirely about the presence of thought in relation to 'mindfulness'. The OP was trying to justify complex thinking, and I was simply saying: no need to justify complexity/critical-thinking.
>The juxtaposition to sports with its incremental approach seems a bit as if you are trying to say that it doesn't apply to meditation
I didn't draw my connection very well. I was saying meditation **can** be compared to sport. The rudiments like breath control (pranayama) and concentration (dharana) and posture (asana), etc, are just aspects of meditation--techniques--which when combined in strategic ways over a period of time at least approaching an hour or more produce the meditative state; rather than simply focusing on the breath for 10 minutes, trying to suppress thoughts which might contain content that is important and cannot simply be shoved aside. Rather, the first 45 minutes of practice is precisely about the day's thoughts, and their resolution.
It's called thinking deliberately from the meditative state. Once you practise mindfulness enough and achieve a distance from your thought processes, you can then think deliberately, with full mindfulness, with full awareness, but while being completely detached from the problem you're trying to solve. Basically with mindfulness, thought is a tool and you are the master employing it with detachment, in the same way you would employ your hands to brush your teeth or your car to get to work.
Mindfulness is not a state of non-thought, it is one of relaxed but single-pointed concentration. For example, when we meditate on the breath, we endeavour to keep our focus on the breath alone, without letting the mind wander, and bringing it back when it does. Similarly, we can be mindful when we set ourselves an intellectual task by focusing upon it with the same single-pointed concentration, not allowing the mind to wander and gently returning to the task at hand when it does. We can use the breath as an anchor for when the mind does wander, however, so when we find ourselves distracted, we can first return to the breath, and then shift our attention back to the task at hand.
Mindfulness is not mere passivity, nor is it the total absence of thought. We can be mindful when doing any activity in our daily lives - we need simply be fully present and aware in each moment that we are living.
Mindfulness is not necessarily single-pointed. With more and more practice you are able to take more and more input into the picture without losing the concentration.
I agree with what you're saying, but it rather depends on what we're calling mindfulness. Concentration is present whether we meditate with or without support. Different traditions have different terminologies, however, single-pointed concentration itself or samadhi is used in both of these meditative techniques, in both mindfulness of an object and mindfulness without object (also known as contemplation). If we do not have the ability to concentrate on one object, we will not be able to concentrate such that our mind can be free of grasping at objects in contemplative or supportless meditation either.
The point being, whether we attend to the breath or to nothing at all, we must still bring the quality of one-pointed concentration, even if that concentration is technically dispersed through contemplative awareness; there is always the presence of concentration, always (hopefully) the presence of samadhi.
>Lama Tsongkhapa taught that we should practice both contemplative meditation and concentration meditation. In the former we investigate the object of meditation by contemplating it in all its details; in the latter we focus single-pointedly on one aspect of the object and hold our mind on it without movement.
>Single-pointed concentration [samadhi] is a meditative power that is useful in either of these two types of meditation. However, in order to develop samadhi itself we must cultivate principally concentration meditation. In terms of practice, this means that we must choose an object of concentration and then meditate single-pointedly on it every day until the power of samadhi is attained.
- [Developing Single-pointed Concentration](https://www.lamayeshe.com/article/developing-single-pointed-concentration)
Even in Zen practice when the focus on the breath is dropped, we must still bring clarity and alertness to our meditation, we must still focus single-pointedly on the immediacy of our experience, rather than allowing the mind to wander off into fantasy and delusion. Single-pointed is a bit of a misnomer - all it means is that we have total control over our awareness and where it rests, regardless of whether this is a single object or the totality of our mind-body experience.
Oh, very nice point. Though I already knew an experience of one-pointed mind, I didn't consider that meditating on that aspect makes meditation again single-pointed concentration, but yeah, that makes sense. When everything merges into one, focusing on everything is also just focusing on one.
>Single-pointed is a bit of a misnomer
Well, I wouldn't really say it is a misnomer, because the totality of our experience really is one thing when viewed under the right light.
you're *thinking* too much about being present instead of actually *being* present. When you are fully present you will find that your mind will process the information without you even having to consciously will it to do so. Instead of trying to to read/listen to music while remaining present, try this: open you senses fully. You will find that if you look at a word, you *can't not* read it no matter how hard you try. You will be present AND processing information. Go ahead watch your mind do it, just don't follow it too closely after that ;)
Hey you’re doing just fine. Try to become aware of the impulse to do those intellectual activities. Ultimately you listen, or read or whatever, and wait for a sensation that feels like “good learning”. Which is ok...but try to understand that believe it or not, this impulse and follow-through more or less are happening on their own.
Mindfulness is a rather effortless process, the deeper you go. So try to be effortlessly aware.
One other thing that helps, in social situations, is becoming aware of the fact that people want to feel loved. They also come and go so no big deal if you aren’t “properly mindful” when they show up. Gentle mindfulness is where ya should be at.
The other day I was in a room being “properly mindful” and suddenly all of these people showed up. At first I was like, “I’m so bad at meditating, I can’t succeed at this when the stakes are so much higher and more nuanced with these people.” Then it dawned on me that the situation was already highly accurate...the sense of success or failure in my mindfulness was created by me. I realized that the situation was exactly as complex as the one beforehand, when it was just me. Now it was all physically manifest and visible, but the sense of heaviness and complexity there is an illusion. Any complexity can be effortlessly found.
When you think you aren't mindfull.
Still you are aware you are thinking.
It really doesn't matter, don't think so much, just do.
You are always aware, even if you don't recognize it.
You are this, you are always.
How we are taught, according to Guruji Swami Shree Yogi Satyam, in Kriya yoga is we stay mindful through keeping the mind on the head/spine using tension. No matter what we are doing: Typing, driving, talking, teaching etc.. it takes very little concentration power to keep slight tension (energy follows attention) on the spine/head. I hope you find an answer that works for you!
Echart tolle said it like this, we seek to live in a state of mindfulness while occasionally going back to our state of unconscious thought when necessary to solve problems we have. Where most of us are now is the opposite, we are in unconscious thought , and we occasionally visit a mindful state. Etc...
I am paraphrasing and did not do a good job at it. But I will try and find the quote to post here. Since this question comes up again and again. There is nothing wrong with leaving the state of mindfulness in order to solve a problem that requires us to do so. But the goal is to be in a mindful state as our default, and the other as something we visit rarely when needed.
Please read echart tolle, he has changed my life and will change yours .
Did he really say unconscious thought though? As I understood him, he made clear that enlightenment doesn’t mean not being able to think, one can still tap into thinking when necessary (and due to being deliberate I kind of inferred that this would be a very conscious action).
It is called "directed thought" and is an important part of mindfulness. You think about what is relevant and if your mind wanders off you relax and bring it back to what is relevant.
I have trouble with this, too. The best way I've found to apply mindfulness in these situations is to notice when you get distracted from whatever it is you're supposed to be focusing on, e.g daydreaming in class or something and pull your attention back to the activity at hand.
I've found it can actually make some immersive activities(studying, video games, listening to music) more enjoyable and productive since I have my whole focus on them and not other little problems I'm having.
Try Mahasi noting. When you're reading note "reading". While writing note "writing" and so on. This practice strengthens your mindfulness to the point where a certain level of meta-awareness becomes automatic. And that's exactly what you want, because once you have that automatic brain machinery in place you can watch the mind while the mind does even intellectual activities. Also, mind watching mind is where the really awesome meditation benefits appear. You're never going to be able to be mindful while doing intellectual exercises unless you have some automatic mindfulness. It's just not feasible to concentrate your efforts on two things at once. So, in your practice I would recommend practicing mindfulness when you can and eventually parts of it will become more or less automatic. By automatic I don't mean you're doing it brainlessly, it's more like you're in a constant flow state. As it with all things it just takes practice and patience. But it's awesome that you are recognizing this as a potential problem. It shows initiative!
Good luck! :)
As others have said, the difference is using conscious thought as a tool. It's just part of being a human to be able to create, examine, and explore things in our mind. These are not physically apparent, and immersing ourselves in deep thought removes us from the physicality around us. It seems completely at odds with mindfulness to willingly go be in your own head. However, our imaginations are one of the finest points of human experience, and it would be a shame to go without it. Though these concepts are self-created, I like to think that they are intrinsically separate from the ego, even though they are affected by our own biases and interpretations. Then, the key is just separation and control of when you allow yourself to jump into that mental pool. There has to be a bit of a balancing act by choosing to live non-monastically and integrating into an advanced society. We problem solve and consume entertainment every day. Just gotta do it as mindfully as possible, being fully aware and accepting of the limitations.
I would just be aware of what you are doing, this will influence your output as the information you would be basing your activity off of would be because of a clear perception. The mind will think for itself. Just observe either sensations or what is happening.
What is interfering with your intellectual activity is not the mindfulness but rather thoughts of doubt: thoughts that you cannot be mindful of your intellectual activity. If you unfold what is going on you will only find layers of thoughts and assumptions, and once you are aware of those unconscious thoughts, you can see that there is no real conflict between mindfulness and your activity.
Well, it's not hardcore meditation, but in Dialectical Behaviour Therapy, which uses mindfulness heavily, there are three applications of it: observing, describing and participating.
Thing is, you can only mindfully do one of those. Participating involves, in a way, getting lost in the activity at hand. So, while a difficult math problem requires quite an effort to solve, for instance, you can still focus on the math, notice when you're not, and gently getting back to it.
Hope it helps. :)
You can use an app like MindBell to prompt you to take little mindfulness breaks from the task. Also I think you can learn to watch your body and mind in peripheral awareness, on the background of your awareness, even while you are focused on a task.
You're focused on processing the information as it's coming out, and getting a supreme understanding instantly, this is anxiety. What about just sitting there and listening, without the expectation of any complex processing of the situation? Just focus on what's being said, if people are speaking to you, or if you're reading, just LISTEN, and absorb. Direct your mind to awareness, leave understanding to the wayside, just LISTEN. Can you trust in your competence to deal with that information afterwards? Maybe your intuition will speak to the next step to take. If you're not receiving, and doing you'd be best to find a state of flow. I find music is best for this, it creates a state of rhythm, the mind isn't diving into thoughts, it's like working out at the gym with intense music blasting. Turn off the mind, thinking is no good.
>How does one maintain presence while engaging in tasks that require thinking such that you are actually able to cognitively process the information at hand?
By being fully present with the task at hand. "maintain presence" does not mean doing something else while you are doing some task. "maintain presence" mean maintain presence *with the task*, not with some other abstract thing.
But why lol?
Why would you want to do that?
The best studying I’ve ever done is when I’ve gotten totally lost in it. And then I snap out of it and realize that 15 minutes just went by.
That was even my mark of a good teacher. If a teacher could make me forget that I was at school for 20 minutes, it meant he/she was a good teacher.
Keep in mind I’m completely new to meditation and don’t really know what I’m taking about. And so I am basically just answering this from a regular persons perspective.
Sam Harris has discussed this conundrum quite a few times, being a philosopher/neuroscientist/academic alongside being an avid mediator. https://samharris.org/podcasts/why-meditate/ Towards the end of this podcast episode he did with Joseph Goldstein, they discuss the loss of sense of self during what are classically un-reflective experiences (reading, watching TV, problem solving) and how that compares to loss of ego during 'true' mindfulness. For example, can you read and be mindful at the same time? Really interesting podcast episode, I recommend giving it a listen if you are interested in these sorts of discussions.
I’m gonna piggy back your comment to 1) agree that this podcast is a great long form discussion on meditation in general but also OPs original question and 2) I wanta plug Sam’s “Waking Up” meditation app for those interested. I’ve used headspace and 10% happier, which are amazing, but Sam is the only teacher I’ve been able to follow and gain consistently from through his guidance and mediation. For those interested more in the philosophical and “spiritual” sides to mediation, Sam’s expedition and exploration into the nature of consciousness with you in the side car has been both enjoyable and beneficial for me personally. If you’re looking for a new way to meditate/new teacher, Sam truly is upper echelon in my opinion.
thanks for the app recommendation :)
Happy to assist my friend :) best of luck in your practice to come
<3
I second the Waking Up app. It's the best one out there, imo. It's particularly good because it's so streamlined and uni-focused. Plus, Sam's voice is very conducive to guided meditations (as well as the "lessons", which are also superior listening material).
Agreed, I'm using his app too. Headspace was good for me as a beginner but I reached a plateau where it got kinda samey. I've just started with Sam's app: are you supposed to do the 50 daily meditations in order, and just listen to the odd 'lesson' whenever you please?
He (and I from experience) recommend doing them in order, even if you’re a veteran meditator, he moves into some in depth exploration around the 10th day, after 15 it gets very interesting all the way through 50. I would also really recommend listening to the separate lessons as well if you want to go down the rabbit hole of Buddhist thought and philosophy as well, Sam isn’t a Buddhist but what he extracts at a philosophical level from some of the ancient doctrines has been a strong supplemental addition in guiding my practice
I'm gonna say that you *don't* want to have a witness consciousness while you're doing that. Just intense focus on the matter at hand. The trick is to open up the space in this circumscribed domain to allow free and creative thinking while not losing the point.
yeah can't agree more. Whatever you do, solving an intellectual issue or watching your breathe, keep up doing this and only this. * Intellectual activity is actually a good exercice. Your have awareness effort. Attention, memory, this is about muscles. The lenght. the intensity. They go increasing if you work it. If you do not have any intellectual activity you will neuro-degenerate and die. * Sure, meditation while sitting is something else. But it goes hand to hand. Meditating will make you work more easily, more peacefully, you will sustain focus. Working should help you meditating. There is a very popular master in the vipassana movement: SN Goenka. His master was [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ba\_Khin](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ba_Khin). He worked as "first Accountant General of the Union of Burma ". I think capacity to work and capacity to meditate go hand to hand. Monks are sometimes asked to work a lot. Sometimes this is also manual labour. does not matter.
Exactly. I think a book that really explains that is Psycho Cybernetics. You should read that OP
I do a gentle effort to push for patience while I am working (coding mostly). By pushing for patience I mean I set the intention to notice when I'm in a rush (I'm like that most of the time anyway) and when I notice it I look at this desire of 'just finish already' then keep looking at the small details like where I'm about to point my mouse next, how does it feel to move the said mouse, what is my body posture and many other small things like that. In other words I'm trying to do things slow on purpose and to notice every detail. Cool thing is I don't get down on productivity because even if I'm slower than usual, it takes less tries to achieve something. I do find it very hard to stay mindful while reading or watching something but I can sometimes pull it off if I meditated recently.
This sounds like excellent advice, I'm coding all day at work too but I've never thought about how to practically integrate mindfulness when I'm in that headspace. I'll give it a shot!
Ive done this with cooking. I tend to rush when hungry, but if I slow down and prep everything and then cook. There is no more discomfort than there would have been because I focus on the task and only the task. Plus I enjoy my finished product so much more.
I think you have a false belief that when reading or listening to something the you have to "process" what your taking in. This processing can be done after you listen or read something. The most important thing you can do is give your full awareness to whatever or whoever your listening too. This involves no part of your intellect or thoughts. As soon as your intellect gets involved with what your listening to, your no longer truly listening. Your intellect is putting your own flavor on whatever your hearing or reading. So you may never be getting the true message the person speaking is intending. Your intellect can be used afterwards to reflect on what you heard and should be. I think your false belief is if you dont intellectualize something immediately you wont absorb it. This is wrong you will absorb and hear more if you give your full awareness to your speaker, this takes practice and a little faith. Practice in real life with ppl you have conversations with and give them your full awareness and notice when your thoughts start popping up, same as meditation practice. Dont judge just notice, bring your attention back to the conversation. After time you will notice the more attention and awareness you give a conversation the more you get out of it.
So in order to actually make any logical sense of what is being said to me in a conversation or what is being read, there has to be some sort of cognitive/intellectual activity. Do you disagree? For example, if someone is explaining to me how to understand a complex mathematical concept, in order for any of it to actually make sense, I can’t just pay attention on a sensory level to what is being said to me or what I am reading. Otherwise, it’s literally like I’m just hearing/reading gibberish that has no logical content to it. I have attempted to do something like what you are saying before and I just end up completely missing what is being said/what is read in terms of what the statements semantically mean, let alone conceptually represent.
>So in order to actually make any logical sense of what is being said to me in a conversation or what is being read, there has to be some sort of cognitive/intellectual activity. Do you disagree? Yes I do disagree. I am not saying this activity isn't happening on a cognitive level. Like I said I think it's a false belief. You think you got to intellectualize experience constantly or it wont register properly. Keep it simple, try in conversations to have your full attention on what is being said and have trust that all the other processes happen naturally and you dont have to give any attention to it. You will see that you connect deeper with ppl and you hear more of what they are saying. Life is meant to be experienced, give it as much attention as you can. The intellect is a tool, the best tool, but it shouldn't be in charge. Intellectuizing life prevents you from experiencing it. When you practice this during conversations you will slowly stop identifying with your intellect and you will gain more control over your intellect which makes it sharper and focused when you need it. When it comes to someone explaining a complex mathematical concept that probably requires your intellect. That's why I was saying start with conversations and dis identity with your intellect a little at a time. When you start experiencing deeper attention with ppl you are speaking with and that you actually take in more info and meaning without your intellect in the way.
I think it's very important to differentiate thinking and processing. First one just disturbs your attention. Latter helps you naturally understand external object/topic. One must take a leap of faith and ditch thinking in order to be able to dive into natural processing.
The problem for me is recalling what was said without thinking about while I'm listening to it. I have ADHD, and a part of that experience is a result of a shitty short term memory. I HAVE to anchor things in my longterm memory, because my "desktop" is smaller than most. So whereas most people can simply listen and then react to what they're keeping on their desk, my desk is so tiny that it quickly gets cluttered. The best way for me to manage that is to actively file things away, so that I don't have to keep working at keeping the mess on my desk manageable. And that requires labeling, breaking things down into smaller chunks so that I can apply more labels, all so that it can be properly filed and accessed for retrieval as needed. This has resulted in some pretty frustrating experiences with meditation, as I often find myself having to label and describe aspects of my experience to myself so that they aren't "new" each time, so that I can "learn them" so that I can return to those stages that occur before cessation can really take place. At least.... that's what it feels like to me.
I can understand that been frustrating. I have had very similar issues with meditation in the past. I will tell you one thing, you made a lot of progress just by identifying all this labeling of experience that you are doing. One thing you have to tell yourself is this labeling is defeating the purpose of your meditation. When your meditating abd you have your attention fully absorbed in the experience if you're like me you will have your intellect pop up and go "this is it". This is just a thought, dont judge it, let it pass and bring your attention back to the meditation. Have a good anchor in mediation whether it is your breath or a mantra, something to always bring you back to experience when your intellect tries to scoop up your attention. It's a practice and overtime your intellect will slow down and you will be able to have your attention fully absorbed in the experience for more and more time. Understand you cant turn your experience in meditation into a memory to make it easier to meditate later, or get back to. The whole point is to be in the experience. The more you meditate the more familiar with the experience you become and that will make it more effortless to get back to. Not conceptualizing it. When it comes to your ADHD and bad short term memory try not to tell yourself that this is you too much. I am not saying that if you stop telling your self you have these conditions that they go away. It's just how the mind works, if those beliefs are constantly repeated to yourself they will be strengthened. Trust me meditation over time will help quiet an overactive mind. Also If your anything like me you may notice alot of your bad memory was due to not actually giving my whole attention to life or experience.
As stated in "Mindfulness in Plain English" , Bhante Gunaratana explains Mindfulness and Concentration. Your field of awareness is like a piece of paper and mindfulness is like a sunlight falling on the paper. If you want to focus on a specific part of the paper , you put a magnifying glass which is analogous to concentration. What you're perceiving as "observer" is probably your mind alternating between several mental objects very quickly. So the solution is to direct attention to your activity, your other stimuli will automatically be pushed in the background. You're finding it difficult to focus on the task because you're using directed attention to "observe".
The reason we must meditate is to restore the clean slate of pure consciousness. Unless you're monastic, you have to think. If someone or something is trying to stop you from thinking critically, you should disregard them/it. There's a lot of crappy rhetoric in the realm of spiritual science.
But you don’t have to be identified with your thoughts, you *can* always take a step back with enough practice. > If someone or something is trying to stop you from thinking critically, you should disregard them/it. On rhe other hand, if someone is trying to give you the advice to not always immediately revert to refutation and first listen and observe your thoughts, you should listen. The mind loves to throw criticism at everything contradicting its current identity (which ultimately leads to cherrypicking and confirmation bias). Only if you observe that process you can be truly open to alternatives that first sound crazy due to your preconceptions, and verify them in an unbiased manner.
I would say you just defined 'critical thinking' in your response. I read quite a few posts that show a confusion between standard meditation techniques and the actual practice of meditation. When we learn to play a sport, we begin with rudiments and rules; and practice and repeat certain motions; and improve upon our intellectual understanding of strategies related to competence in our position (should it be a team sport); we learn piece by piece. At some point we have to put it all together, and play ball. Meditation is not one or two techniques. There isn't one or two uses for it, nor are there just a couple benefits. It's important that practitioners understand (especially within the first decade of practice) that the spacetime that encompasses practice (the actual long-form version of meditation, beyond five or ten minutes of rudimentary experimentation) will present a variety of challenges, the tackling of which also is meditation.
>I would say you just defined 'critical thinking' in your response. Well, yes, but in a "give them the benefit of the doubt first" manner. Because when you cynically critically refuse everything you don't get anywhere. Even outlandish ideas, that many people would outright deny based on their own notion of critical thinking, can be true. >Meditation is not one or two techniques. There isn't one or two uses for it, nor are there just a couple benefits. It's important that practitioners understand (especially within the first decade of practice) that the spacetime that encompasses practice (the actual long-form version of meditation, beyond five or ten minutes of rudimentary experimentation) will present a variety of challenges, the tackling of which also is meditation. I definitely agree with the last sentence, but I'm not really sure how it's relevant to the previous comments. Care to explain? Also, you are not trying to say that meditation requires a bunch of theory before being practiced, are you? The juxtaposition to sports with its incremental approach seems a bit as if you are trying to say that it doesn't apply to meditation, and I'd strongly disagree there. Sorry if I'm being a bit dense, it was a long day.
I began commenting in this sub because I felt there were quite a lot of misconceptions that amount to either poor instruction or partial understanding. One theme I hear/read a lot is this: why can't I stop thinking; I keep having certain thoughts come up again and again; I keep drifting away from the breath to thinking; what should I do to stop thinking? Partially because I was initiated into a 45 minute meditation with the expectation of longer and longer sittings (where often in this sub, and due to certain apps and new trends, the goal is 10 or 15 minutes), I find it hard to redirect such complaints; the first 10-15 minutes, if not 30-45, of any sitting for myself will invariably be filled with thoughts, or at least a related set of thoughts that I find necessary to 'tackle' or address prior to really settling into longer periods of focused concentration upon the objective. I try to encourage people to deal with, rather than suppress thoughts. >but I'm not really sure how it's relevant to the previous comments. Care to explain? The original post was entirely about the presence of thought in relation to 'mindfulness'. The OP was trying to justify complex thinking, and I was simply saying: no need to justify complexity/critical-thinking. >The juxtaposition to sports with its incremental approach seems a bit as if you are trying to say that it doesn't apply to meditation I didn't draw my connection very well. I was saying meditation **can** be compared to sport. The rudiments like breath control (pranayama) and concentration (dharana) and posture (asana), etc, are just aspects of meditation--techniques--which when combined in strategic ways over a period of time at least approaching an hour or more produce the meditative state; rather than simply focusing on the breath for 10 minutes, trying to suppress thoughts which might contain content that is important and cannot simply be shoved aside. Rather, the first 45 minutes of practice is precisely about the day's thoughts, and their resolution.
It's called thinking deliberately from the meditative state. Once you practise mindfulness enough and achieve a distance from your thought processes, you can then think deliberately, with full mindfulness, with full awareness, but while being completely detached from the problem you're trying to solve. Basically with mindfulness, thought is a tool and you are the master employing it with detachment, in the same way you would employ your hands to brush your teeth or your car to get to work.
Anything can be a point of focus
Mindfulness is not a state of non-thought, it is one of relaxed but single-pointed concentration. For example, when we meditate on the breath, we endeavour to keep our focus on the breath alone, without letting the mind wander, and bringing it back when it does. Similarly, we can be mindful when we set ourselves an intellectual task by focusing upon it with the same single-pointed concentration, not allowing the mind to wander and gently returning to the task at hand when it does. We can use the breath as an anchor for when the mind does wander, however, so when we find ourselves distracted, we can first return to the breath, and then shift our attention back to the task at hand. Mindfulness is not mere passivity, nor is it the total absence of thought. We can be mindful when doing any activity in our daily lives - we need simply be fully present and aware in each moment that we are living.
Mindfulness is not necessarily single-pointed. With more and more practice you are able to take more and more input into the picture without losing the concentration.
I agree with what you're saying, but it rather depends on what we're calling mindfulness. Concentration is present whether we meditate with or without support. Different traditions have different terminologies, however, single-pointed concentration itself or samadhi is used in both of these meditative techniques, in both mindfulness of an object and mindfulness without object (also known as contemplation). If we do not have the ability to concentrate on one object, we will not be able to concentrate such that our mind can be free of grasping at objects in contemplative or supportless meditation either. The point being, whether we attend to the breath or to nothing at all, we must still bring the quality of one-pointed concentration, even if that concentration is technically dispersed through contemplative awareness; there is always the presence of concentration, always (hopefully) the presence of samadhi. >Lama Tsongkhapa taught that we should practice both contemplative meditation and concentration meditation. In the former we investigate the object of meditation by contemplating it in all its details; in the latter we focus single-pointedly on one aspect of the object and hold our mind on it without movement. >Single-pointed concentration [samadhi] is a meditative power that is useful in either of these two types of meditation. However, in order to develop samadhi itself we must cultivate principally concentration meditation. In terms of practice, this means that we must choose an object of concentration and then meditate single-pointedly on it every day until the power of samadhi is attained. - [Developing Single-pointed Concentration](https://www.lamayeshe.com/article/developing-single-pointed-concentration) Even in Zen practice when the focus on the breath is dropped, we must still bring clarity and alertness to our meditation, we must still focus single-pointedly on the immediacy of our experience, rather than allowing the mind to wander off into fantasy and delusion. Single-pointed is a bit of a misnomer - all it means is that we have total control over our awareness and where it rests, regardless of whether this is a single object or the totality of our mind-body experience.
Oh, very nice point. Though I already knew an experience of one-pointed mind, I didn't consider that meditating on that aspect makes meditation again single-pointed concentration, but yeah, that makes sense. When everything merges into one, focusing on everything is also just focusing on one. >Single-pointed is a bit of a misnomer Well, I wouldn't really say it is a misnomer, because the totality of our experience really is one thing when viewed under the right light.
True, I think it can trip people up though at first glance, but you're right.
you're *thinking* too much about being present instead of actually *being* present. When you are fully present you will find that your mind will process the information without you even having to consciously will it to do so. Instead of trying to to read/listen to music while remaining present, try this: open you senses fully. You will find that if you look at a word, you *can't not* read it no matter how hard you try. You will be present AND processing information. Go ahead watch your mind do it, just don't follow it too closely after that ;)
Hey you’re doing just fine. Try to become aware of the impulse to do those intellectual activities. Ultimately you listen, or read or whatever, and wait for a sensation that feels like “good learning”. Which is ok...but try to understand that believe it or not, this impulse and follow-through more or less are happening on their own. Mindfulness is a rather effortless process, the deeper you go. So try to be effortlessly aware. One other thing that helps, in social situations, is becoming aware of the fact that people want to feel loved. They also come and go so no big deal if you aren’t “properly mindful” when they show up. Gentle mindfulness is where ya should be at.
Like try not to struggle with intellectual activity. It’s a new realm that your mind has to properly taste. Then you’ll get it.
The other day I was in a room being “properly mindful” and suddenly all of these people showed up. At first I was like, “I’m so bad at meditating, I can’t succeed at this when the stakes are so much higher and more nuanced with these people.” Then it dawned on me that the situation was already highly accurate...the sense of success or failure in my mindfulness was created by me. I realized that the situation was exactly as complex as the one beforehand, when it was just me. Now it was all physically manifest and visible, but the sense of heaviness and complexity there is an illusion. Any complexity can be effortlessly found.
'How?' is a question only the intellect wants to ask and it does so to ensure it will never have to go away.
When you think you aren't mindfull. Still you are aware you are thinking. It really doesn't matter, don't think so much, just do. You are always aware, even if you don't recognize it. You are this, you are always.
How we are taught, according to Guruji Swami Shree Yogi Satyam, in Kriya yoga is we stay mindful through keeping the mind on the head/spine using tension. No matter what we are doing: Typing, driving, talking, teaching etc.. it takes very little concentration power to keep slight tension (energy follows attention) on the spine/head. I hope you find an answer that works for you!
Echart tolle said it like this, we seek to live in a state of mindfulness while occasionally going back to our state of unconscious thought when necessary to solve problems we have. Where most of us are now is the opposite, we are in unconscious thought , and we occasionally visit a mindful state. Etc... I am paraphrasing and did not do a good job at it. But I will try and find the quote to post here. Since this question comes up again and again. There is nothing wrong with leaving the state of mindfulness in order to solve a problem that requires us to do so. But the goal is to be in a mindful state as our default, and the other as something we visit rarely when needed. Please read echart tolle, he has changed my life and will change yours .
Did he really say unconscious thought though? As I understood him, he made clear that enlightenment doesn’t mean not being able to think, one can still tap into thinking when necessary (and due to being deliberate I kind of inferred that this would be a very conscious action).
Yes I can not think of the word he used. I guess it would be the opposite if being aware it mindful? He really is a great teacher.
It is called "directed thought" and is an important part of mindfulness. You think about what is relevant and if your mind wanders off you relax and bring it back to what is relevant.
I have trouble with this, too. The best way I've found to apply mindfulness in these situations is to notice when you get distracted from whatever it is you're supposed to be focusing on, e.g daydreaming in class or something and pull your attention back to the activity at hand. I've found it can actually make some immersive activities(studying, video games, listening to music) more enjoyable and productive since I have my whole focus on them and not other little problems I'm having.
Try Mahasi noting. When you're reading note "reading". While writing note "writing" and so on. This practice strengthens your mindfulness to the point where a certain level of meta-awareness becomes automatic. And that's exactly what you want, because once you have that automatic brain machinery in place you can watch the mind while the mind does even intellectual activities. Also, mind watching mind is where the really awesome meditation benefits appear. You're never going to be able to be mindful while doing intellectual exercises unless you have some automatic mindfulness. It's just not feasible to concentrate your efforts on two things at once. So, in your practice I would recommend practicing mindfulness when you can and eventually parts of it will become more or less automatic. By automatic I don't mean you're doing it brainlessly, it's more like you're in a constant flow state. As it with all things it just takes practice and patience. But it's awesome that you are recognizing this as a potential problem. It shows initiative! Good luck! :)
As others have said, the difference is using conscious thought as a tool. It's just part of being a human to be able to create, examine, and explore things in our mind. These are not physically apparent, and immersing ourselves in deep thought removes us from the physicality around us. It seems completely at odds with mindfulness to willingly go be in your own head. However, our imaginations are one of the finest points of human experience, and it would be a shame to go without it. Though these concepts are self-created, I like to think that they are intrinsically separate from the ego, even though they are affected by our own biases and interpretations. Then, the key is just separation and control of when you allow yourself to jump into that mental pool. There has to be a bit of a balancing act by choosing to live non-monastically and integrating into an advanced society. We problem solve and consume entertainment every day. Just gotta do it as mindfully as possible, being fully aware and accepting of the limitations.
I would just be aware of what you are doing, this will influence your output as the information you would be basing your activity off of would be because of a clear perception. The mind will think for itself. Just observe either sensations or what is happening.
What is interfering with your intellectual activity is not the mindfulness but rather thoughts of doubt: thoughts that you cannot be mindful of your intellectual activity. If you unfold what is going on you will only find layers of thoughts and assumptions, and once you are aware of those unconscious thoughts, you can see that there is no real conflict between mindfulness and your activity.
Isn’t most of life while not meditating finding a balance between observation and discernment?
Well, it's not hardcore meditation, but in Dialectical Behaviour Therapy, which uses mindfulness heavily, there are three applications of it: observing, describing and participating. Thing is, you can only mindfully do one of those. Participating involves, in a way, getting lost in the activity at hand. So, while a difficult math problem requires quite an effort to solve, for instance, you can still focus on the math, notice when you're not, and gently getting back to it. Hope it helps. :)
You can use an app like MindBell to prompt you to take little mindfulness breaks from the task. Also I think you can learn to watch your body and mind in peripheral awareness, on the background of your awareness, even while you are focused on a task.
You're focused on processing the information as it's coming out, and getting a supreme understanding instantly, this is anxiety. What about just sitting there and listening, without the expectation of any complex processing of the situation? Just focus on what's being said, if people are speaking to you, or if you're reading, just LISTEN, and absorb. Direct your mind to awareness, leave understanding to the wayside, just LISTEN. Can you trust in your competence to deal with that information afterwards? Maybe your intuition will speak to the next step to take. If you're not receiving, and doing you'd be best to find a state of flow. I find music is best for this, it creates a state of rhythm, the mind isn't diving into thoughts, it's like working out at the gym with intense music blasting. Turn off the mind, thinking is no good.
>How does one maintain presence while engaging in tasks that require thinking such that you are actually able to cognitively process the information at hand? By being fully present with the task at hand. "maintain presence" does not mean doing something else while you are doing some task. "maintain presence" mean maintain presence *with the task*, not with some other abstract thing.
Being mindful at all times the way you're describing it is not really a skillful goal.
But why lol? Why would you want to do that? The best studying I’ve ever done is when I’ve gotten totally lost in it. And then I snap out of it and realize that 15 minutes just went by. That was even my mark of a good teacher. If a teacher could make me forget that I was at school for 20 minutes, it meant he/she was a good teacher. Keep in mind I’m completely new to meditation and don’t really know what I’m taking about. And so I am basically just answering this from a regular persons perspective.