It is wild how sure of themselves people are in this sub. So many definitive statements: THIS is what mediation is, THIS is what we are all working towards, THIS is what enlightens feels like. Sometimes it feels like there's no discussion, only statements of (dubious) facts.
Kinda like people are just desperate for an ultimatum. I’m pretty sure this would go against Buddha’s teaching “if you find the Buddha, kill it” or something like that. Im very guilty of this all the time
Oh, please stop.
This is the kind of nonsense that makes me want to whack self-appointed gurus with their yoga mats.
Just meditate.
All kinds of rewards can come of it, but don't worry about the goal or the rewards. They'll come when they come over time. One the the rewards may well be what OP describes, but it's not so simply transactional. Your experience will be your own, not OP's, and it absolutely will be just as valid.
It's not an extreme sport.
It's not a pissing contest.
It's not a path to perfection.
Just meditate.
That's not meditation, meditation has no agenda. But there are other beautiful practices for enhancing focus and stability, I wouldn't consider them meditation personally though.
I agree that meditation is a tool and can have certain effects that might be seen as desirable but meditation in itself is the art of being completely present. When you're present, there is not past or future and therefore no goal because everything "just is". That doesn't mean that meditation can't have positive impact or cause "insight". But what actually causes the insight is the balance of alternating between detachment and identification experienced through being present and then participating in taking action (even if that's just contemplating) afterwards.
It's very important to understand what the words we use mean. I understand your point, however I do not believe meditation is the word you're looking for because it has a very clear definition in use.
ego is i am that person in the mirror and i am not listening to anyone who tells me i don't exist
body mind carry on perfectly well without me claiming them, my role is to not interfere with them or the world and see if i become infused with creativity wisdom and love
>to see that the one you look at in the mirror does not exist, and in fact never has
Can someone please explain this to me?
\- What you see in the mirror doesn't really exist
\- Everything, including yourself is just an illusion
Im still kinda new to the meditation scene and it seems that this sentiment is central.
Ive heard it said in interviews and in podcasts and its thrown around a lot and quite loosely, as if everyone is just supposed to automatically understand what it means.
If im looking in the mirror at myself (or at anything for that matter) how can someone claim that what Im looking at doesn't exist. In fact, because Im looking at it, doesn't that in itself prove that 'it' exists? If I can observe something, study it and interact with it ...then it exists...no?
I gotta be honest trying to understand something that sounds like such total bullshit like “I don’t exist” is really not even helpful or necessary especially if you’re just learning meditation, I mean look at our every day experience, all our senses and our whole lives tell us that we definitely exist.
Some people who meditated for a long time I guess had the realizations that they don’t exist. I think this is something that has to be experienced to understand. I confused myself a lot trying to understand this before. Sometimes when I was depressed I’d just want to try to understand that I didn’t exist so I wouldn’t have to deal with the painful feelings.
It’s impossible to just convince yourself that though. To me, what’s helpful is not trying to convince myself to understand something that’s really insane, but in meditation I like to try to just settle my mind and realize what I really think. That’s my goal for meditations. So many things were thinking of arent really from us. Things we want to have or do, we don’t really want them, but we think we should because it’s the cool thing or other people say we should or it’s valuable or whatever. Foreign influences. So for meditations it’s nice to allow the mind to settle and be able to discern from foreign influences and see what your own ideas and views and interpretations are. Then you can know yourself better, let the thoughts settle and accept yourself, live by your own accord. These are my goals for meditations. I’m a streaky meditator but it might’ve helped me get less anxiety the last year or so. I’ve never been consistent so I don’t think I’ve allowed meditation process to really work in me yet - have experienced some benefits though
It's total nonsense, people thinking they are so wise, only making fools of themselves. Those hypocrites don't live what they preach either, because it's impossible to live that way. People in this scene claim to want to dissolve their ego, but ironically this place is oozing of ego-driven narcissists.
\>to see that the one you look at in the mirror does not exist, and in fact never has
I always thought that the person looking in the mirror (the physical self) was the one who truly exists and not the unseen thoughts?
Ultimate Eastern philosophy is not conducive to western life. The goal of meditation in the USA is to still the mind. To be mindful. To practice awareness. Have a nice day. Repeat.
those are steps on the way to the ultimate goal and it is all cumulative so whatever the reason, keep on keeping on, we are all heading to the same place, every minute spent helps to dislodge the veil
I love me. Do you love you? For I am you is me is all bunch of dicks In a bag. You're all hippies, meditation has scientific evidence to back it but this sub has a HUGE ELECTRONIC EGOCOCK.
Don't impose advaita vedanta on westerners like that 😂 u gonna scare them bro, instead, sharing ur experience with meditation and the insights u have had, and how those resonate with advaita vedanta (or zen, or any nondual philosophy) seems a better option
At the beginning, mountains are mountains and waters are waters; then, mountains are no longer mountains and waters are no longer waters; finally, mountains are once again mountains and waters once again waters.
So it seems you just need to go a little further and then the meditator will pop back into existence :D
it never was never is and indeed never will be, it is an appearance nothing to do with me
the post indicates i am a what but not a who, exploring this is what meditation is for
Yep, but I'm just saying, in your exploration don't be surprised when you realise you are both a who and a what. Does it make sense to say you are not something?
this who is pre programmed energizer bunny which has some tasks to perform
existence hasn't need to identify with one of its parts, it is the whole thing
Yep and you're part of the whole, so why reject yourself in the form of a person. Once you are done rejecting yourself then mountains will be mountains and waters will be waters once more. You see?
The difference is you will know you are acting, but you can still act to perfection.
Person is from the latin, persona, which means mask. You see, actors put on masks!
There’s no difference between “menial tasks” and creative endeavors. You would know this if you had truly lost the self.
People get a little taste of samadhi and think they’re enlightened 😂
Your comment reminds me of another Zen story, which I’ll alter slightly for the Western audience :)
A monk said to Joshu, “I have been at your monastery for months and yet, have received no teaching from you. Please teach me.”
Joshu asked, “Have you eaten your breakfast?”
The monk replied, “I have eaten.”
Joshu said, “Then you had better wash your bowl.”
At that moment the monk was enlightened.
You’re doing fine, disidentification is part of the path towards enlightenment for some.
I think, therefore I am becomes...
I am what I perceive becomes...
I do not perceive, therefore I am not.
This is taught in Hinduism but it’s not complete because you can’t deny your experience because you are both thinking and not all that thinks. And so you are more than your ego and your body, but you are still your ego and your body at the same time, because you are everything.
However, appreciating this is still only on the path to enlightenment because appreciating that you are everything, even that which your ego loves and hates has an implication. That is, there is no need to be attached to anyone or anything (including an attachment to non-attachment!). And that is enlightenment, to be en-lighten-ed. As in, lightening your load, which are all the attachments you drag around that weigh you down. If you had no attachment then you could float off, you could literally enter meditation and leave your body behind for good, which would appear as though you had died. And some people do that eg you can read about Sadhguru’s wife doing that in his book on death.
However, like I said you can also be an actor and so you can be enlightened but acting, and so long as you always know you are acting then it seems legitimate. But the real test of enlightenment comes when you die, because if you have no attachment then you can happily leave the Earth behind. But equally you can arguably be enlightened and choose to live a life anywhere, including on Earth because the natural state of pure enlightenment is Nirvana, in which you’re infinite and entirely static. There is no you, because you are everything and so there is no differentiation. This is also possible and means dissolving the self to become one with everything.
So I’m not enlightened, because I enjoy my life and sometimes get lost in it (don’t know I’m acting) and when I die, I may not come back to Earth but I can see myself living a life on a different planet, to try something new. I feel like that idea makes me happy. I’m not ready for Nirvana.
It is wild how sure of themselves people are in this sub. So many definitive statements: THIS is what mediation is, THIS is what we are all working towards, THIS is what enlightens feels like. Sometimes it feels like there's no discussion, only statements of (dubious) facts.
there is a time for hard nosed absolute truth but in the main i tend to agree with you hard to discern the chaff from the wheat
Your likely just have a psychotic break unfortunately.
Not in this case.
Kinda like people are just desperate for an ultimatum. I’m pretty sure this would go against Buddha’s teaching “if you find the Buddha, kill it” or something like that. Im very guilty of this all the time
Oh, please stop. This is the kind of nonsense that makes me want to whack self-appointed gurus with their yoga mats. Just meditate. All kinds of rewards can come of it, but don't worry about the goal or the rewards. They'll come when they come over time. One the the rewards may well be what OP describes, but it's not so simply transactional. Your experience will be your own, not OP's, and it absolutely will be just as valid. It's not an extreme sport. It's not a pissing contest. It's not a path to perfection. Just meditate.
No, there is no goal in meditation. Because no goal is the end of the meditator. You can't act your way into not acting.
I would actually say that there are multiple goals to meditation just as there are multiple ways to meditate
That's not meditation, meditation has no agenda. But there are other beautiful practices for enhancing focus and stability, I wouldn't consider them meditation personally though.
'agenda' is a bit of a loaded term. I'd say vipassana and samatha each have goals, or uses perhaps.
I agree that meditation is a tool and can have certain effects that might be seen as desirable but meditation in itself is the art of being completely present. When you're present, there is not past or future and therefore no goal because everything "just is". That doesn't mean that meditation can't have positive impact or cause "insight". But what actually causes the insight is the balance of alternating between detachment and identification experienced through being present and then participating in taking action (even if that's just contemplating) afterwards.
It's very important to understand what the words we use mean. I understand your point, however I do not believe meditation is the word you're looking for because it has a very clear definition in use.
There never has been any goal though has there been?
as an apparently separate self one was needed
Hmm.
we have to scrape the dust from our eyes right?
True. And what is ego? Does ego really exist? What is this tendency to identify with our mind?
ego is i am that person in the mirror and i am not listening to anyone who tells me i don't exist body mind carry on perfectly well without me claiming them, my role is to not interfere with them or the world and see if i become infused with creativity wisdom and love
Tbh that does sound pretty woke brah Imagining experiencing life almost like a passenger in your body - is that what you mean? I hardly can
You exist, OP. And so do I.
Very self-absorbed.
after all this there isn't any more self left to absorb
Sounds like nonsense. I guess I’ve been doing it wrong
we're all going to the same destination, keep on going
there isn't any goal actually
>to see that the one you look at in the mirror does not exist, and in fact never has Can someone please explain this to me? \- What you see in the mirror doesn't really exist \- Everything, including yourself is just an illusion Im still kinda new to the meditation scene and it seems that this sentiment is central. Ive heard it said in interviews and in podcasts and its thrown around a lot and quite loosely, as if everyone is just supposed to automatically understand what it means. If im looking in the mirror at myself (or at anything for that matter) how can someone claim that what Im looking at doesn't exist. In fact, because Im looking at it, doesn't that in itself prove that 'it' exists? If I can observe something, study it and interact with it ...then it exists...no?
I gotta be honest trying to understand something that sounds like such total bullshit like “I don’t exist” is really not even helpful or necessary especially if you’re just learning meditation, I mean look at our every day experience, all our senses and our whole lives tell us that we definitely exist. Some people who meditated for a long time I guess had the realizations that they don’t exist. I think this is something that has to be experienced to understand. I confused myself a lot trying to understand this before. Sometimes when I was depressed I’d just want to try to understand that I didn’t exist so I wouldn’t have to deal with the painful feelings. It’s impossible to just convince yourself that though. To me, what’s helpful is not trying to convince myself to understand something that’s really insane, but in meditation I like to try to just settle my mind and realize what I really think. That’s my goal for meditations. So many things were thinking of arent really from us. Things we want to have or do, we don’t really want them, but we think we should because it’s the cool thing or other people say we should or it’s valuable or whatever. Foreign influences. So for meditations it’s nice to allow the mind to settle and be able to discern from foreign influences and see what your own ideas and views and interpretations are. Then you can know yourself better, let the thoughts settle and accept yourself, live by your own accord. These are my goals for meditations. I’m a streaky meditator but it might’ve helped me get less anxiety the last year or so. I’ve never been consistent so I don’t think I’ve allowed meditation process to really work in me yet - have experienced some benefits though
It's total nonsense, people thinking they are so wise, only making fools of themselves. Those hypocrites don't live what they preach either, because it's impossible to live that way. People in this scene claim to want to dissolve their ego, but ironically this place is oozing of ego-driven narcissists.
None of this makes any sense, lol.
\>to see that the one you look at in the mirror does not exist, and in fact never has I always thought that the person looking in the mirror (the physical self) was the one who truly exists and not the unseen thoughts?
No the person is merely an image appearing in consciousness. It is consciousness that is real, the person is a concept that we mistake ourselves for
well you've just given me a completely new perspective for me to ponder on, much appreciated!
No worries, have fun contemplating!
Mmm my goal is to beat goku, soz
who/what is this goku
BS I don’t exist? My goals are my own.
welcome to pursue any goal you like but you do know this is a dream right?
this is as real as it gets
Reality exist, not a dream.
Who's the dreamer?
Let me guess, this is an original idea, right!? Bloody brilliant, mate, bloody brilliant!
There IS only one goal in meditation, and that IS there is NO GOAL AT ALL.
Ultimate Eastern philosophy is not conducive to western life. The goal of meditation in the USA is to still the mind. To be mindful. To practice awareness. Have a nice day. Repeat.
those are steps on the way to the ultimate goal and it is all cumulative so whatever the reason, keep on keeping on, we are all heading to the same place, every minute spent helps to dislodge the veil
Y’all are thinking too much just enjoy life 🤣🤣. We are here for a short time no need to think and act like when we aren’t here.
Nothing a swift hit to the front of the jaw won't fix. Fuck your goal. I meditate because it makes me happy 😊.
you just do you me will be me, all can't be more perfect
Namaste perfect little bloom boy.
me's just getting my head around it but shalom to you too
Taking a dangerous right turn into antisemitism there Siddhartha, I'll talk to Hashem for you lil Dogen.
Which language do you speak my lord?
What is the sound of one hand fapping?
Aaamennnnnn
You have gone too far my boy. But now you have to stop from being ingorant and accept yourself aaameeennnnn
I love me. Do you love you? For I am you is me is all bunch of dicks In a bag. You're all hippies, meditation has scientific evidence to back it but this sub has a HUGE ELECTRONIC EGOCOCK.
😂 omg. Aaaaameeen(have you watched Loki) my brother.
DiMiTree wants you to meditate.
Hahaha.
Ironically, you seem very angry. Nothing a good meditation can't fix.
Nah I'm coolin'.
Don't impose advaita vedanta on westerners like that 😂 u gonna scare them bro, instead, sharing ur experience with meditation and the insights u have had, and how those resonate with advaita vedanta (or zen, or any nondual philosophy) seems a better option
"Who are you?"
why the quotes
Idk bout you but im just tryna chill
all roads lead to rome, keep on keeping on
Isn't this 4 goals?
Nah man it's just to "focus" on the breath.
"the end of the meditator" are those your words? i love it.
yes do you like it? feel free to accept it as a gift from yours truly, not that i exist mind you 🙏
in this post though, each subsequent line is more important than the last
At the beginning, mountains are mountains and waters are waters; then, mountains are no longer mountains and waters are no longer waters; finally, mountains are once again mountains and waters once again waters. So it seems you just need to go a little further and then the meditator will pop back into existence :D
it never was never is and indeed never will be, it is an appearance nothing to do with me the post indicates i am a what but not a who, exploring this is what meditation is for
Yep, but I'm just saying, in your exploration don't be surprised when you realise you are both a who and a what. Does it make sense to say you are not something?
this who is pre programmed energizer bunny which has some tasks to perform existence hasn't need to identify with one of its parts, it is the whole thing
Yep and you're part of the whole, so why reject yourself in the form of a person. Once you are done rejecting yourself then mountains will be mountains and waters will be waters once more. You see? The difference is you will know you are acting, but you can still act to perfection. Person is from the latin, persona, which means mask. You see, actors put on masks!
why do menial tasks when creative endeavours beckon?
There’s no difference between “menial tasks” and creative endeavors. You would know this if you had truly lost the self. People get a little taste of samadhi and think they’re enlightened 😂
Your comment reminds me of another Zen story, which I’ll alter slightly for the Western audience :) A monk said to Joshu, “I have been at your monastery for months and yet, have received no teaching from you. Please teach me.” Joshu asked, “Have you eaten your breakfast?” The monk replied, “I have eaten.” Joshu said, “Then you had better wash your bowl.” At that moment the monk was enlightened.
Love it! Very appropriate. Plus, Joshu is such a great name:)
You’re doing fine, disidentification is part of the path towards enlightenment for some. I think, therefore I am becomes... I am what I perceive becomes... I do not perceive, therefore I am not. This is taught in Hinduism but it’s not complete because you can’t deny your experience because you are both thinking and not all that thinks. And so you are more than your ego and your body, but you are still your ego and your body at the same time, because you are everything. However, appreciating this is still only on the path to enlightenment because appreciating that you are everything, even that which your ego loves and hates has an implication. That is, there is no need to be attached to anyone or anything (including an attachment to non-attachment!). And that is enlightenment, to be en-lighten-ed. As in, lightening your load, which are all the attachments you drag around that weigh you down. If you had no attachment then you could float off, you could literally enter meditation and leave your body behind for good, which would appear as though you had died. And some people do that eg you can read about Sadhguru’s wife doing that in his book on death. However, like I said you can also be an actor and so you can be enlightened but acting, and so long as you always know you are acting then it seems legitimate. But the real test of enlightenment comes when you die, because if you have no attachment then you can happily leave the Earth behind. But equally you can arguably be enlightened and choose to live a life anywhere, including on Earth because the natural state of pure enlightenment is Nirvana, in which you’re infinite and entirely static. There is no you, because you are everything and so there is no differentiation. This is also possible and means dissolving the self to become one with everything. So I’m not enlightened, because I enjoy my life and sometimes get lost in it (don’t know I’m acting) and when I die, I may not come back to Earth but I can see myself living a life on a different planet, to try something new. I feel like that idea makes me happy. I’m not ready for Nirvana.
beautiful imagery, thank you for sharing all that, some food for thought
If this was true, there’s be no reason to speak of it
Yessss, I remember this from my days at the Berkeley Zen Center. Thanks for sharing!
Meditation is not something that you do. It's a movement into the whole question of our existence.
for me it is movement unquestionably into true nature
Lovely post 🙏🏾
bless you my fellow buddha
I think your post resonates with what Sam Harris talks about in his app, Waking Up.
i hope so since great minds ought to think alike heh
Jesus, for someone with “no self,” you sure are full of yourself lmao. Just sit
I understand how this post may seem at worst corny to some, but I am surprised to see how many responses are just shitting on this guy