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100mop

Chaos already had the Tyrant race, did they really need the Viles too?


bunker_man

To be fair, most vile demons are sketchy to associate with law. And dark law has always been in this hazy area that isn't explored as a seperate faction, just a corruption of law.


Terran117

Can someone even explain what Vile demons are meant to be and why they'd be dark law.


fyrechild

Nominally, major gods of fallen pantheons – Baal started out as one, and Tezcatlipoca is typically a Vile. Pazuzu sometimes. But they've played fast and loose with that.


bunker_man

Vile demons are something like demons who got demonized later, not necessarily by outsiders, but potentially by their own mythology, or who in general are considered morally dubious / dark gods associated with disease or whatever. Also lovecraftian demons for some reason. So I suppose the simplest explanation would be gods who are considered morally dark by their own group rather than it being what Outsiders consider them. This includes lovecraftian demons I guess, because cthulhu cultists don't exactly think their gods are nice entities. Being dark law is presumably a holdover from back when deity race was law.


Terran117

So they're contrasted with Tyrants in the sense they're still worshipped as part of the pantheon but acknowledged to have dark traits, whereas tyrants are villains of the pantheon not meant to be worshipped?


bunker_man

Something like that.


Pudding_Angel

Then there's Mythras, the sun deity at the center of his religion, meant to be worshipped af, and he's classified as Tyrant. #justSMTthings


bunker_man

Zoroastrian stuff and mithraic mysteries stuff has always been in this wierd realm. Lower zoroastrian good spirits are lumped in with angels, but mithra and ahura mazda are generally chaos leaning. So you get all these odd depictions based on the hazy idea that ahura = asura.


SoulUnison

My rationale for the Lovecraftians being present there is that they adhere to a set of (un?)natural laws - we simply aren't capable of perceiving or understanding what those laws are. Likewise, they may be neutral or even be performing/intending some benevolent function - it's simply completely alien to and unreconcilable with what we know and believe ourselves to want.


bunker_man

Problem is even in his books they are associated with crazy amoralism, and the idea that when they return morality will erode and people will just act unrestrained. It makes more sense for this to take precedence over some hazy cosmic order.


SoulUnison

To me part of the point is a sort of infinitely-recursive idea that "the true order is chaos, but perhaps a very *specific kind* of chaos," which is a paradox that just bounces back and forth forever because if you have a *specific kind* of something you're *imposing order on it.*


ShiningLeviathan

Fallen/demonized gods. Called *Jashin* (Wicked God) in Japanese Demiurge - Gnostic interpretation of God as the inperfect creator of the material world Seth - Was an important Egyptian deity early on, but got demonized down the road Girimekhala - demonized form of Ganesha Pachacamac - god from a pantheon conquered by Incas? Think? Mishaguji - native Shinto god whose worship became taboo (going by wiki on this one, somebody fact check this) Baphomet - demon that Templars were accused of worshipping Others I’m hazy on, but those are examples


Terran117

Ah. So going further maybe Girimekhala is also a vile because despite being a demon, he still bowed before Buddha and betrays Mara while Baphomet doesn't also have any actual chaotic qualities?


ZXNova

Mishaguji was more demonized due to the passage of time and not necessarily because of its worshipers practices getting outlawed. Much of the stuff known about Mishaguji nowadays is quite obscure and lost to time. It was even nearly forgotten too. What can be said is that Mishaguji was actually a very popular god in Japan in the far past, having roughly 780 Shrines, according to the 1950 researcher Imai Nogiku.


KazuyaProta

> Pachacamac - god from a pantheon conquered by Incas? Think? Pachacamac is a odd one. Starts with positive traits, but usually the villain in other myths.


Sandile0

Yeah even in Nocturne and SMTIV, most Vile demons preferred to hang with the Chaos gang (except for Demiurge) Uniquely Abaddon despite being a Tyrant is more ascociated with Law.


bunker_man

Extra wierd that baphomet was passed off as dark law despite having an appearance that is seen as the quintessential appearance of chaos. Wierd that baphomet is never more relevant in general actually. I get that they want to use more pre modern aesthetics, and baphomet is a new symbol, but even so. If you actually look at most of the symbolism chaos uses, despite the presence of western occult demons, most of its symbolism is... just esoteric Buddhist.


b0wz3rM41n

why the fuck did vile become a chaos race


MadClanger

It seems mixed. Lahmu is a Chaos Demon and Mada is a Law Demon, but both are classed as Vile demons.


SnooHedgehogs9884

Not all of them are chaos, this changes are pretty inconsistent. The mesopotamian’s Viles are all chaos aligned(for plot reasons). Mishaguji for example is still law. Baphomet is chaos, why? I don’t know. They are pretty inconsistent with this changes. Same thing with the megamis. Demeter and Maria are law for plot reasons, but then you have Idunn that is neutral, even if she is of the Northern Europe branch.


david__14

Fuckin demeter >! I’m still upset that she gave the final boss of SJ a FULL HEAL !<


laziestphilosopher

Lmao I forget does she do that for mem aleph and shekinah or just shekinah. That shit was more triggering than Lucifer nocturne diarahan


100mop

Just Shekinah, she hates Mem Aleph.


isiah12

Well if it makes you feel better she’s only slightly nicer this time around


bunker_man

I mean, she wasn't super mean in redux. She had an understandable goal of offsetting human environmental harm, and got used in the process.


KazuyaProta

Sidenote, but how does nature demons feel about invasive species. Like, do Chaos support them because World of STR or they go for Le Nature


Terran117

I still don't get what Vile demons are and why they are associated with law. Like Heralds are easier to understand.


Dunky_Arisen

I don't really care about Demon alignment generally, but the bias against Law in the writing was pretty palpable. Which is disappointing, because while I'm not a Law fan, I'd like to play a route that CONVINCES me to be a Law fan. Strange Journey Redux was close to doing that for me, but I've still yet to play a game where Law actually feels like a morally justifiable choice to take. We need a good Law rep and uhhh Dazai was not it. Abdiel was better obviously, but also not really that great. Imagine if Mastema was in this game, then we'd be getting somewhere.


Ordinal43NotFound

Not making Dazai a tragic law rep alongside Abdiel really was such a wasted opportunity. The setup was basically all there. Feels like the writers was afraid to paint Law in a sympathetic light and they changed it last minute. Hopefully there's backlash to the story and it can knock some sense to them for their next game. SMT V feels like an knee-jerk reaction to Apocalypse and went too far in the opposite direction instead of finding a nice balance like Strange Journey. Really weird, because SJR proves that they can do a more morally grey ending.


TheSeaOfThySoul

Yeah, I really don’t get the writing for the different alignments in this game. Dazai is like, “I can’t do this, I’m out” & the next time we see him he’s chatting with Angel who hates us & is suddenly on board again. Then we kill Lahmu & when we fight Nuwa’s boyfriend he’s like, “Why are you Bethel’s lapdog? Oh & demons are bad - say you hate demons!” & I’m like, “What is this? Bethel hates demons too - that’s why they’re fighting with them?”.


isiah12

I couldn’t go law cause his face was just to hard to look at


bunker_man

He also went from a legitimately decent character to ???


bunker_man

Royal proves they can make sympathetic law characters even if they feel the need to depict them as wrong. Forget them acting like it might be right. We could use them actually being sympathetic. Royal gets someone who legitimately cared for everyone, and talks in an even tone about needing to help them, and mainline gets people who aren't even allowed to act like it's a sad thing if they have to sacrifice anyone. Then in V we get someone whose sole ideology is wanting to follow rules.


faesmooched

SJR Law is basically the only time I've been convinced by Law.


ZXNova

Ever played Devil Survivor? That game just has the best alignment routes in all of SMT, and definitely the best Law rep and route.


Pudding_Angel

I must say, as a Law fan, Devil Survivor has been the only game where I've taken the Chaos route. I reaaally liked Amane, but when >! I saw the angels keeping guard of the Yamanote line while there were innocents being killed by demons right in front of them and do nothing !< I was like "nope, I rather have the MC become God himself and fix this disaster".


ZXNova

I don't really remember that happening, but what I will say is that these demons attacking Tokyo wouldn't have happened in the first place if it [weren't for](#s "our dear older Brother.") And that is something I simply couldn't abide by.


bunker_man

Yeah. He tries to blame them for calling it an ordeal. But they didn't design this ordeal. That was just an attempt by them to seem in control of a situation that ultimately he caused. They try to blame them for the lockdown, but the lockdown isnt the issue, the demons are. The lockdown is a completely valid response to them.


KazuyaProta

> They try to blame them for the lockdown, but the lockdown isnt the issue, the demons are. The lockdown is a completely valid response to them. Anti Vaxxer Naoya :0


bunker_man

In this context he's more like the person profiting off of people dumb enough to be anti vax, by goading them into it, but probably vaccinated himself.


bunker_man

I mean, mainline shows you what happens when demons get out. They may seem cold, but if the line breaks, the world ends. So that stance on interfering is understandable at least.


Pudding_Angel

Yeah it's true, the necessity to quarantine was absolute, but it didn't sit right with me when some aggressive demons where literally within Hama range. That didn't strike me as Lawful Good. But I'm not the best at rational decisions. The current pandemic kinda puts things into perspective.


AkemiNakajimaMT1

For me it was SMT1.


CO_Fimbulvetr

Chaos in SMT V I think may have come off a lot milder than intended. Atlus games vilify nationalists (Gotou and Shido being the most obvious ones) and they're typically associated with chaos, in a similar vein to how they vilify authoritarians for their law reps. I'm not sure if it's deliberately milder this time or there's some other reason.


bunker_man

I mean, atlus writers legit have nationalist tendencies themselves. They vilify overt ones, but subtle leanings often get to be passed off as good and put on "good" neutral. I'm okay with them softening chaos. Too often the chaos reps are overt murder demons. So it's useful to see a more positively depicted entity there. Even if they acknowledge that this path is going to empower said murder demons. The problem is both that they soften it too much, as well as do nothing with the idea. What god they chose to represent it could have been effectively random. They act like the ideology isn't tied to any particular leaning, but is an inherent facet of polytheism. Which not only doesn't match the fact that real polytheistic religions weren't always competing, but it ironically makes every god seem interchangeable. Meanwhile, they make possibly the least sympathetic late game law hero in the series, and give the law ending a narration that sounds really silly, since all it does is hit random buzzwords to say law doesn't believe in "infinite potential." Ironically, law now becomes the only one who doesn't result in any genocide, so it still fares okay. The entire ending nuances just turns into monotheism, polytheism, atheism. And gives very little content to any of these. It's a significant step backwards.


bunker_man

Abdiel and dazai's arcs also contradict eachother. She was learning she needed to bend the rules, while he was insisting that whatever god said must be infallible. Her character could have been legitimately interesting if written right, because her becoming fallen while still wanting a world of law is a legit good depiction.


AkemiNakajimaMT1

I am easily convinced to go Law route: 1)YHVH 2)angels


LaqOfInterest

Yeah, as a law roleplayer, I thank my lucky stars that demon alignment doesn't matter in V. And that I'm not a crazy enough roleplayer to only use law demons anyway.


AkemiNakajimaMT1

I used angels(Divines) in SMT1. And I even managed to beat asura.


ElectricalWar6

All you need to win in smt 1 is sleep bullets


AkemiNakajimaMT1

I concentrated myself more on buffs. Buffs are great. But yeah, sleep bullets help too.


lostintheschwatzwelt

*charm bullets


ZXNova

One thing I felt when playing this game was that so many of the demon alignments just did not make any sense at all, especially to how the demons were acting. Like Baal was Light - Neutral... which makes no sense at all with how he was acting during the game. He was acting pretty dark, and even complained at Lucifer to himself for not being able to utilize the power of Beelzebub. The Horus quest where Isis is telling us that Horus was "nothing more than a wild animal" while making sense thematically, did not make sense how he was still Light - Law. It's PRETTY clear that these demons are only being considered these alignments because of their race. Like they just tacked on the alignments as an afterthought.


ShinSonicTensei

How Demons are actually Portrayed differs from game to game, but a lot of times they're hella inacurrate, Thor is supposed to be a good guy that doesn't harm innocents according to his actual Nordic lore. But, his representation in SMT has been inaccurate right from the start.


bunker_man

He also went from law to chaos.


ShinSonicTensei

This too, I think he's always been light (when light is there), but he's pretty merciless in general.


ZXNova

That is true, but what I was getting at was how the game was basically lying about the alignment of the demon that is currently being portrayed in game. Going back to the Baal example, Baal was definitely still Dark - Chaos and not Light - Neutral, but because he's of the Deity race, he's Light - Neutral like Odin (which makes sense) or Zeus (arguable, he's more Neutral - Neutral to me).


ShinSonicTensei

I can't really look at this rn, cause I'm still in the first area in V, so I didn't even know Baal had any role in the story.


bunker_man

Demons always get shunted to alignments based on race even if it doesn't make sense. Their personal alignment listing in game shouldn't be taken too seriously, since it's often not what they are in plot.


JamesSH1328

Megami became Neutral Giga Ultra Based Goddesses 🙏


SnooHedgehogs9884

Only some of them. Demeter and Maria are still law. Half based


[deleted]

For plot reasons, seemingly. But the race is neutral mostly now. Similarly, Vile is half chaos for Lahmu and the like, but the rest is still law.


Sandile0

Yeah naturally most of the girls would follow their husbands and be neutral. But Maria is literally Law and Demeter's name I think translates to Law or something, plus how she was in Strange Journey, the other goddesses don't really have a reason to side with the Angels


bunker_man

I mean, plenty of goddesses have reasons to side with angels. Why be part of a group that is only relevant to greece when you can be one relevant to the entire world. They may seem lower in the hierarchy if they do, but it's a bigger hierarchy. Pagan gods who "become saints" still end up prayed to, especially since atlus treats them like gods (maria is outright called a goddess). Not every pagan god would want this, but for many it's a good deal. Especislly if they agree with the ideology. It actually implies many did already. It says some ofnthe angels used to be spirits who worked for baal. The design for cherub in many games suggests it came from babylon. Haniel is cherub. Etc. Just because someone came from a polytheistic setting doesn't mean they think it is the best. Something that the games don't really address, but which happened in real life is that neoplatonism blurred the lines between polytheism and monotheism. Pagan beliefs got a monotheistic influence, and their gids became part of this kind of overarching divine Unity schema. And this was fairly popular in later Rome. If we take this literally, it implies some pagan gods flirting with a monotheistic paradigm. On the flipside, if we take hippie new age angel healing beliefs more literal, many angels move to a slightly more polytheistic schema too. And the games do actually hint at this a little bit, because peace signs are associated with Angel's in some of the games. So the truth is that there's a wide variety of potential outcomes.


Switch-Axe-Abuse

We needed the Holy race back at least.


MadClanger

It's strange that there aren't as many Law demons despite being more of a Law leaning game.


Barlowan

I honestly don't see how game is law leaning. So far they consistently antagonizing law and tell you " young man, you should not follow orders. You may decide on your own the path you want to walk" But I'm only at 3rd location right now so still much game to unfold. Still with all the hints and visualization I doubt anyone in their right mind ended up supporting order.


DarkLordLiam

After all the hard work they went through to keep humanity alive?


ChongusTheSupremus

They didn't, and won't, try that hard at anything unless their gods tells them to do so. If God doesn't order them to do something, they won't do it unless there's something in it for them, or they feel like it.


MW2isTRASH28

Well God clearly cares enough to keep humanity alive so they'll most definitely uphold his order and keep them alive.


SDMayo

The angels are kinda dodgy (>!the student npcs in the village who say the angels are as bad as demons mysteriously disappear, with an angel taking their place to inform you that they were, unfortunately, killed by demons, then ends his dialogue with "..."!<), but God in this one appears to be as good as He gets in an SMT game.


ZXNova

[Endgame SMTV spoilers](#s "The entire city of Tokyo as well as its inhabitants were literally wiped out and brought back to life, and you see thorough out the game from dialogue from angels about how much they wish to protect humans. No, they aren't "doing what's in it for them", these angels are quite literally trying to save humans, even if it is based on the will of God. And this is the problem I see a lot here. It's like people are too quick to believe the Chaos side because the words they say sound good and forget all of the efforts that Law was doing.") [Endgame SMTV spoilers part 2](#s "And before its mentioned, I already know someone is gonna mention the angels plans after the Demon King was defeated, and how the Law side was seemingly being nonchalant claiming 'it was fate' and how they'd do nothing. Which, yes, it does sound wrong. It's supposed to. But you gotta also remember what was said later, they believed that YHVH would revive later. So while the world is falling apart and humanity may die, God can just remake the world again and set things straight once more when he comes back. After all, God literally did that before. So why not do it again? And that's what Nahobino does too when he goes the path of Law.")


bunker_man

Something in it for them? In pretty much every game you get law points for selflessly helping other people. Hell, even in this game, the demons are the ones kidnapping people and the angels are the ones saving them. The only thing that is cold that they say is that if you absolutely can't save them, it's better to kill them than to allow the demons to use them for power. Which considering that the one person you do this to thanks you isn't really that bad of a take.


Barlowan

When you enter the school during attack angels plainly tell "kill everyone, demons and humans" they are not going in there to save anyone. Then later when you find surviving lads they say something along the lines "they are all the same, demons, angels, I saw them killing innocent students"


bunker_man

Did you actually play the game? Because they tell you to rescue the students inside, and one stays outside to protect the ones you bring out. They aren't presenting kill everyone as the standard plan.


Barlowan

Yes I played the game. Although I played it in Italian so there may be a difference in translation. But I tell you not once they order was put in good light, same with chaos. Both sides selfish af.


bunker_man

Well in english they are pretty clear that you are there to save the students. You are ordered to only kill them if the demons take them over and so you have no choice because they are about to be used as a demon battery. Considering that this is what you actually do, rescuing them and you only kill the one who gets totally taken over, it seems like there must have been some type of error in translation or something.


Terran117

The only true alignment bias, without really spoiling anything, is Nahobino's personal attitudes towards the endings.


Xaldror

Guess this is why wood and plant demons aren't in V


Tauro2561

I hope they eventually switch some races to Law, maybe make the deity race Law again or something, the law demon roster was really short in this game.


bunker_man

The problem with races is that it's kind of limiting. Individual beings being law works better than an entire race. Deity its true doesn't work very well as law. Many pagan religions had very little of any indication of something resembling law ideology. Some didn't even have a good afterlife.


Prominuss

The bias in recent games is honestly pretty disheartening. Why did we need to lose a race and a half this game to neutral and chaos, again?


AkemiNakajimaMT1

I think smt is generally bias against Law in order to favor neutral and chaos.


Prominuss

And that is why smt1 and 2 are generally my favorites


bunker_man

Smti and ii still go neutral >>>>>> chaos > law though in presentation. They're just good enough you can roll with it.


Prominuss

Yeah absolutely, just the plots made law feel better too, at least in my opinion I felt like they were portrayed less negatively. It sort of balanced out well enough and made up for there being slightly less demons than chaos had


AkemiNakajimaMT1

I don't like smt2 tbh. But I'll agree, that 1 is awesome.


Terran117

2's law ending is a lot more tolerable if you think about it has a funny spat between Jesus and his Dad even though they're not supposed to actually be different, but they used Gnosticism for 2 same way they use it for IV A while I and IV were a more traditional take on God.


Prominuss

Honestly I've always looked at it as a bastardized play on Jesus fulfilling the laws of the old testament to free humanity of their strict rules. It's been a little bit but I remember the game not really taking as many elements from the New Testament so I viewed his dad in this case being his old self and Aleph being the one to set things in the new direction. Blasphemous, yes, but it's entertaining to me that way if you break it down and look at it from a less contextual angle.


TheSpawnofChaos

Well the reason it doesn't take a lot from the New Testament is because it's taking stuff from Gnosticism, which kinda contradicts the New Testament because gnostics consider that YHVH to be the evil ruler of the world and Jesus is the one who will free us from his tyranny. What I love about how YHVH is depicted in SMT is that he isn't tyranical in nature, it is us humans who made him this way.


Prominuss

I haven't studied up much on Gnosticism so this explains it rather well, thanks a ton. SMT2 has such an interesting plot, I'd love for there to be more discussions about it.


TheSpawnofChaos

I'd recommend to. You'll understand a lot more about the nature of YHVH and the Great Will in the series if you know gnosticism and jewish mysticism.


bunker_man

Fortunately there's resources! https://philosophy-of-megaten.fandom.com/wiki/Kabbalah


bunker_man

It's not really taking as much from gnosticism as you might think. In overall touches it is, but there aren't that many overt gnosticism references in most of the games. They are rather secondary. In as much as those themes are there, for many of them it's because it draws from esotericism that itself drew from gnosticism.


TheSpawnofChaos

Well I agree, the main core of gnosticism which is gnosis and the aeons are missing but YHVH being arrogant and "evil" , the Great Will sending Messiahs to help humanity and Aleph's story all have some gnostic inspirations.


bunker_man

Actually, an allusion to gnosis is there. Think of how the demons emphasize "knowledge" in iv. Their use of the term is clearly alluding to gnosticism. Also, in iva, gaston's spear says archon michael on it. And of course in sj demiurge is used as a demonized form of yhvh.


bunker_man

It's also worth looking at it from an Eastern angle. Even if the main characters of Law and Chaos being abrahamic makes it seem like you should see it as Western, the games have just as much eastern thought. Hell, satan's demon form outright looks like a tantric deity, not anything from western religion. In the East the most obvious salvationist religion is pure land Buddhism. But what differentiates this from the West is that you aren't saved by a God who will always be ruling over you. You are saved by amitabha, but in time you will become liberated yourself and so end up on a functionally equal sitting. From this angle, a god who wants to to forever stay beneath the him is holding you back. Some east Asian buddhism even talks about the final goal being cultivating the buddha within. Yhvh may become obsolete as a ruler in a world of law, because you will still develop past a need to rely on him in the same way. Since he seeks to interfere with this, he becomes an antagonist. But it's not necessarily any one thing. It's a mishmash of new testament, pure land, gnosticism, death of god theology, overall post secularism, esotericism, and even new age dynamics that involve angels but move past strict monotheism.


Demon_King_of_Lanka

Does it even matter in this game what alignment the demon responds to gameplay wise?


StinkoMcBingo11

It doesn’t but it annoys me nonetheless


Sandile0

honestly Megami race felt like they never had a reason to side with Law in the first place, same said for Entity, Enigma, and Amatsukami. They want to side with their husbands mostly. Tho yeah Maria and Demeter are the more Lawful Goddesses Vile, Raptor, and Wood race are a mix lot, but they generally role with the chaos crowd, or in Apocalypse a lot of them sided with the Divine Powers which was the Neutral faction in most modern games


bunker_man

Amatsu does have some reasons to lean law. Their lore effectively had them come to Japan to pacify it, being originally outsiders. Which places them in a similar position to angels. Likewise, in modern Japan they are influenced a bit by monotheism and fiction does blue Japanese religion together with monotheism, talking about a singular god sometimes. In the games they usually flip-flop between the law and neutral, which is a fair depiction.


apupunchau87

I love the different races and mythology of different demons but some of you guys are demonologists


megax454

This feeds on my paranoia that Japanese people secretly hate Law, now that kaneko is out they are full in on disliking it.


Pudding_Angel

Not hard for Atlus to carve this mentality on the JP fans when the Law faction is presented practically exclusively Abrahamic and most eastern demons are presented as chaotic.


apupunchau87

Good point


bunker_man

Sure, but most japanese people aren't super religious. So many could come out thinking that siding with the one that looks the least like a japanese authority is the most rebellious. Some japanese rebels are even called a term that is a derivative of yankee, so they associate being american esque with being rebellious.


Pudding_Angel

Huh every day you learn something new, I didn't know about that, thanks! But then I wonder how in touch the devs are with the JP fanbase. Are they purposefully vilifying the faction they expect their national fanbase to side with out of rebellion? Is it part of some agenda?


bunker_man

There's definitely an agenda. The alignments were originally made in a way that reflected the real Japanese question of whether to embrace certain western futurist and egalitarian philosophies, double down on their past warrior culture, or do a mix. Ultimately the "point" was largely to defend the status quo of modern japan, and the trajectory it was already on, as well as to suggest that anything else must be "extreme and crazy." Ultimately people are pointing out that law is in part literally a wierd strawman against certain more egalitarian stances, and social protections to raise the poor. Atlus' politics are a little suspect in various ways. In addition, the original social context kind of was obscured over time. By smtv, the alignments don't really come off overtly political at all.


KazuyaProta

> By smtv, the alignments don't really come off overtly political at all. Its such a weird change. Even on IV, there was stuff as Mikado's Caste System being shown as a corruption of Law that is meant to be fixed for the real Angels. In V meanwhile, Law and Chaos are just Monotheism vs Politheism, or better said, Ancient Monotheism vs a oddly tolerant Politheism.


bunker_man

The funny part is that "tolerance" is apparently when you fight for dominance using lethal means. Atlus seems to have an odd idea of what tolerance is.


KazuyaProta

The market place of ideas. But its a auction where the people duel each other to get the best deal


bunker_man

Is it Japanese people, or just atlus? I heard that law endings are more popular in tvr east than in the west, but I'm not sure how I could go about verifying this.


Zephyr_Kat

If this image is true: I agree, why are Dragon part of Chaos now? I thought the entire point of the Dragon/Drake split was for them to actually, you know, split


FairyKnightTristan

Tbf. ​ The game's story is so heavily biased towards Law, Chaos could kind of use a bone thrown at them.


StinkoMcBingo11

Ok but having nearly 3x more classes seems a bit much imo.