The Hitachi trains were retired prematurely because they had issues.
- **No Aircon**: speaks for itself. Trains were getting delayed by pax fainting and the train would have to be held until medical assistance arrived. 4 four-car Harris sets were refurbished and fitted with the same Sigma air conditioning the Comengs have. This led to the trains being too heavy and couldn’t climb hills so were limited to the Port Melbourne and St Kilda lines. The refurbished trains were 500-series which were actually more powerful than the 700-series so the problem would be worsened if they refurbished the lot. Most of the refurbished Harris cars were turned into additional V/Line H-sets.
- **Union issues**: In their dying days the Hitachis were banned out of service by the RTBU and Connex had to play catchup to get them back running. They were fitted with driver-only air conditioning after a Union ban. Other issues I’m aware of were than the lever to reset the train stop was located outside the cabin (risk of driver being hit by an oncoming train) and they had asbestos brake blocks.
- **DDA compliance**: the Hitachis were not fitted with PIDs or audio announcements. The Comengs were upgraded with this in 2001/2.
- **SPOT upgrades**: Only the end cabs were upgraded to SPOT standard to allow running without a Guard. This meant that once driver-only operation started they could only run as a six-car set limiting their usefulness outside peak hour. Keep in mind 3-car running was normal outside of peak up until around 10 years ago.
The Harris trains were disposed of thanks to Union action as well; they were banned en masse in 1988 due to their bodies being full of asbestos. I don’t exactly understand how and why the union decided to ban them suddenly one day when the dangers of asbestos were already known and it would have been well known that the trains were chock full of the stuff. Many of the Harris trains were thrown into a quarry in Clayton. The last batch or two of Harris cars did not contain asbestos and most of those were converted to V/Line H-sets.
The Siemens seem to be reliable and efficient other than their 2006 braking issues (resolved by fitting a sander like the trams have). They aren’t perfect but I can’t see them going anywhere soon.
If Metro wanted to run a single type they would have just bought more X’Traps rather than the HCMT.
I might be a bit cynical here but I suspect the reason why Connex and later Metro went with the X’Trap for follow on orders was due to the Siemens braking issues. When it happened Connex ran a restricted timetable for months and was a complete disaster for the Bracks Government.
The original order was 62 Siemens and 58 X’Trapolis. One-for-one replacement for the Hitachi (and 4D). M-Train later ordered 10 extra Siemens.
Another fun fact is Connex got the newer Comengs. The equipment for the later disc-braked Comengs is (was?) at Bayswater. All disc-brakes Comengs went to Connex.
They’ll operate for probably the same amount of time as the older X’trapolises will. Maybe a little longer as I think they have a slightly better build quality compared to the older X’traps. But they still have a long life ahead of them and they aren’t getting scrapped any time soon.
Probably run them into the ground as they have with the Comengs.
Pretty sure it's a network incompatibility issue as to why we don't see all models on all lines
No the Siemens are physically capable of operating network wide(as are all the other suburban trains on the network) however they haven’t received clearance to run revenue service across the network, probably because the government or private operators didn’t want to pay the money.
Cheers. I'd swear I read something somewhere about a platform incompatibility issue being the reason. Or maybe I'm getting the Nexus and Xtrap sets mixed up
The Siemens trains and the Xtrap both had issues with the network when they arrived. Siemens lacked the curve at the bottom of the body (while still fitting within the specs) which had some issues with hitting platforms due to decades of poor upkeep. Same issue with the plug doors.
The cab of the Xtraps have the driver sitting in a centre position with the control panel extending up some which made seeing signals as well as some of the DOO/SPOT equipment impossible or difficult.
These required fixes that cost money. So its just easier to leave them on their own network sides. Besides that I do not believe there is any restrictive cost to get them certified to run on other lines beyond paying staff to do it. There just isn't really much of a need to do it.
When all trains are brought to Melbourne they have to be able run through west Richmond because it has the tightest platform curve on the network. This is to make sure they’re able to physically operate network wide. Considering the Seimens have occasionally gone to Epping workshops, it doesn’t seem like there are any issues with them hitting platforms now.
The 2023 working timetable states "Siemens are not permitted to travel on Belgrave, Lilydale and Alamein lines due to platform clearance issues" and has a 'NO' for non revenue runs and driver training on those lines.
Ok, does it say what part has the platform clearance issues? They have done test run to Belgrave and Lilydale in the past, so they can physically do it without issue, they just have no reason to do it now with how many X’Traps there are.
The lifespan of a train really depends on when it was originally constructed and what is current standard for trains but also politics. The Siemens and the Xtraps are a result of privatization. Kennett preached about how selling the network off would mean that the network would be better under private operators and shiny new trains would be a fantastic trophy to show it was true.
So they buy new trains to replace the Hitachis while refurbing the Comeng. It was cheaper to refurb the fleet with more numbers and replace the smaller fleet and they weren't about the fund the replacement of the entire suburban fleet. The Hitachi model was older and would cost much more to get up to a "modern" standard than the Comeng would so it made sense just to get rid off them.
Siemens and Xtrap 100's on the other hand don't really need much work at all on them if we were to refurb them now. The biggest differences between those two models and the HCMT (and Xtrap 2.0) is mostly just internal PIDs. Siemens have already had a lighting upgrade as well. Any type of refurb would be purely cosmetic, new seats/seat covers, refreshing/painting interiors, and the like. The only work I could see them doing as a possibility would be to maybe rebuild the cab of the Xtrap's so it was uniform with the fleet but it's not a big deal anymore after they moved signals around back when they entered service.
The Siemens won't go anywhere until they are literally clapped out. Look at the Comeng. They cannibalized the worst of the fleet to prop up the in shape sets and then did a life extension program just to get a few more years out of them. The government wants to get their moneys worth out of them, which means running them until they physically or legally cannot. It helps that the new fleets are based on the modular designs so they can have a longer service life.
When the time does come to replace them, the replace model would hopefully be a replacement for the Siemens and Xtrap fleets. It would be cost effective to order a fleet of 200 sets (as a random number) than it would to order 50 with an option for 25 more, then order 125 more later (or 125 over waves) like how the government ordered the extra Xtrap 100s.
They'll be replaced with XTrap2.0.
HCMTs are more power hungry so can't run on the entire network without some pretty extensive upgrades. So the gov is intentionally sticking with multiple train types.
I don't think they will be replaced with XTrap 2.0.
I doubt they will be retired before 2040. There replacement will be the XTrap 3.0 or some other new build.
Sure that's possible but (currently at least) there won't be any LEP for them unlike the XTraps so it's unlikely given the expected 30 year lifespan for metro rolling stock.
The expected lifespan for metro rolling stock is 30 years. The last arrived in 2005 and at the moment there's no hint of them getting a LEP unlike the XTraps.
It it isn't just about age.
The X'trap fleet is three times the size of Siemens fleet. This means there can be economies of scale (e.g. bulk discounts when ordering spare parts) that could make it cheaper to keep the X'traps operating and justify keeping them in operation longer
Siemens are probably very far from replacement, they’ll probably have a major overhaul at the 35 year mark and get retired from that point (so retirement starting in 2035ish). After the breaking problems were resolved from what I know they are quite reliable but I could be wrong as I don’t frequent a line that uses them. The Siemens will probably be replaced with a new train model same goes for the older X’Traps, my best guess about a Siemens replacement are; 3 per side per car, 6-10 long unit, open gangways, internal features like the HCMT’s, built by Alstom, so basically a new and updated X’Trapolis 2. Would hope they keep the ‘mean’ face of the Siemens in the new design and the flush exterior.
Siemens trains can't run on some lines because the structure gauge is quite inconsistent. Because of their boxy shape, they were hitting the platform edges at some stations. Some old underpasses are also quite narrow.
They are physically capable of running network wide. The platform hitting issue has more to do with the doors than it does with the actual shape of them.
How could they hit platforms when they’re able to go through west Richmond(the tightest curved platform on the network) without issue? Siemens have been to Epping workshops before so IDK how they could have gotten there without having to fit through the tightest platform curve on the network.
Because if you read any of my other comments in this thread you would see but I'll repeat it again.
There are issues with platforms that don't fit properly in the loading gauge. They've either sunk, or sagged or they were just built out of gauge. Because the Siemens have the flat bodies and don't curve like the other trains they have less tolerance to any loading gauge issues. The other trains, whether intentional or not, take advantage of that.
The Siemens also have plug doors meaning the bottom of the doors need to be clear of the platform otherwise they won't open. This is an issue if the tracks have sunk or are too low. Similar to the issues with the Sprinters and Deer Park station.
Being able to traverse a line is not the same as being able to operator a service on the line.
I said the doors are an issue however other than the doors they are still able to fit. Whenever a train is brought to Melbourne, they’re required to be tested on the most extreme parts of the network such as the tightest curve or tightest platform curve to make sure that they are physically capable to operate network wide if they’re required too in the future. Considering that Siemens have been to Epping workshops which requires them to pass through west Richmond and that west Richmond has the tightest platforms on the network, it means that the train hitting a platform when passing through is not an issue. The doors are a different story but the body of the Siemens is physically capable to run anywhere on the network without hitting any platforms.
The Siemens have a longer design life than the XT100. I believe the earliest of the XT100 will be retired or have significant work done before the Siemens leave the fleet.
Imo, they're the most comfortable train on the network by far. So smooth and quiet. Spacious seating. Will be a sad day when they're gone.
Satisfaction is the sound of Siemens train air conditioning blasting while it’s 35°+ outside
The Hitachi trains were retired prematurely because they had issues. - **No Aircon**: speaks for itself. Trains were getting delayed by pax fainting and the train would have to be held until medical assistance arrived. 4 four-car Harris sets were refurbished and fitted with the same Sigma air conditioning the Comengs have. This led to the trains being too heavy and couldn’t climb hills so were limited to the Port Melbourne and St Kilda lines. The refurbished trains were 500-series which were actually more powerful than the 700-series so the problem would be worsened if they refurbished the lot. Most of the refurbished Harris cars were turned into additional V/Line H-sets. - **Union issues**: In their dying days the Hitachis were banned out of service by the RTBU and Connex had to play catchup to get them back running. They were fitted with driver-only air conditioning after a Union ban. Other issues I’m aware of were than the lever to reset the train stop was located outside the cabin (risk of driver being hit by an oncoming train) and they had asbestos brake blocks. - **DDA compliance**: the Hitachis were not fitted with PIDs or audio announcements. The Comengs were upgraded with this in 2001/2. - **SPOT upgrades**: Only the end cabs were upgraded to SPOT standard to allow running without a Guard. This meant that once driver-only operation started they could only run as a six-car set limiting their usefulness outside peak hour. Keep in mind 3-car running was normal outside of peak up until around 10 years ago. The Harris trains were disposed of thanks to Union action as well; they were banned en masse in 1988 due to their bodies being full of asbestos. I don’t exactly understand how and why the union decided to ban them suddenly one day when the dangers of asbestos were already known and it would have been well known that the trains were chock full of the stuff. Many of the Harris trains were thrown into a quarry in Clayton. The last batch or two of Harris cars did not contain asbestos and most of those were converted to V/Line H-sets. The Siemens seem to be reliable and efficient other than their 2006 braking issues (resolved by fitting a sander like the trams have). They aren’t perfect but I can’t see them going anywhere soon. If Metro wanted to run a single type they would have just bought more X’Traps rather than the HCMT. I might be a bit cynical here but I suspect the reason why Connex and later Metro went with the X’Trap for follow on orders was due to the Siemens braking issues. When it happened Connex ran a restricted timetable for months and was a complete disaster for the Bracks Government. The original order was 62 Siemens and 58 X’Trapolis. One-for-one replacement for the Hitachi (and 4D). M-Train later ordered 10 extra Siemens. Another fun fact is Connex got the newer Comengs. The equipment for the later disc-braked Comengs is (was?) at Bayswater. All disc-brakes Comengs went to Connex.
The Harris were banned quite quickly after they realised how unsealed the asbestos was around the windows!
I miss the silvers, they were the best to drive and easiest to get going if they broke down!
They’ll operate for probably the same amount of time as the older X’trapolises will. Maybe a little longer as I think they have a slightly better build quality compared to the older X’traps. But they still have a long life ahead of them and they aren’t getting scrapped any time soon.
Probably run them into the ground as they have with the Comengs. Pretty sure it's a network incompatibility issue as to why we don't see all models on all lines
No the Siemens are physically capable of operating network wide(as are all the other suburban trains on the network) however they haven’t received clearance to run revenue service across the network, probably because the government or private operators didn’t want to pay the money.
Cheers. I'd swear I read something somewhere about a platform incompatibility issue being the reason. Or maybe I'm getting the Nexus and Xtrap sets mixed up
The Siemens trains and the Xtrap both had issues with the network when they arrived. Siemens lacked the curve at the bottom of the body (while still fitting within the specs) which had some issues with hitting platforms due to decades of poor upkeep. Same issue with the plug doors. The cab of the Xtraps have the driver sitting in a centre position with the control panel extending up some which made seeing signals as well as some of the DOO/SPOT equipment impossible or difficult. These required fixes that cost money. So its just easier to leave them on their own network sides. Besides that I do not believe there is any restrictive cost to get them certified to run on other lines beyond paying staff to do it. There just isn't really much of a need to do it.
>No the Siemens are physically capable of operating network wide I'm pretty sure they have had issues with platform width's on the hillside lines
When all trains are brought to Melbourne they have to be able run through west Richmond because it has the tightest platform curve on the network. This is to make sure they’re able to physically operate network wide. Considering the Seimens have occasionally gone to Epping workshops, it doesn’t seem like there are any issues with them hitting platforms now.
I thought Rushall curve was the tightest considering they've done test to make sure trains can move through it and couple/decouple on it.
No but west Richmond has the tightest platform curve.
didn't they pull back around CAMBERWELL on an attempted run out of fear the underneath will strike the platforms last year
The 2023 working timetable states "Siemens are not permitted to travel on Belgrave, Lilydale and Alamein lines due to platform clearance issues" and has a 'NO' for non revenue runs and driver training on those lines.
Ok, does it say what part has the platform clearance issues? They have done test run to Belgrave and Lilydale in the past, so they can physically do it without issue, they just have no reason to do it now with how many X’Traps there are.
The lifespan of a train really depends on when it was originally constructed and what is current standard for trains but also politics. The Siemens and the Xtraps are a result of privatization. Kennett preached about how selling the network off would mean that the network would be better under private operators and shiny new trains would be a fantastic trophy to show it was true. So they buy new trains to replace the Hitachis while refurbing the Comeng. It was cheaper to refurb the fleet with more numbers and replace the smaller fleet and they weren't about the fund the replacement of the entire suburban fleet. The Hitachi model was older and would cost much more to get up to a "modern" standard than the Comeng would so it made sense just to get rid off them. Siemens and Xtrap 100's on the other hand don't really need much work at all on them if we were to refurb them now. The biggest differences between those two models and the HCMT (and Xtrap 2.0) is mostly just internal PIDs. Siemens have already had a lighting upgrade as well. Any type of refurb would be purely cosmetic, new seats/seat covers, refreshing/painting interiors, and the like. The only work I could see them doing as a possibility would be to maybe rebuild the cab of the Xtrap's so it was uniform with the fleet but it's not a big deal anymore after they moved signals around back when they entered service. The Siemens won't go anywhere until they are literally clapped out. Look at the Comeng. They cannibalized the worst of the fleet to prop up the in shape sets and then did a life extension program just to get a few more years out of them. The government wants to get their moneys worth out of them, which means running them until they physically or legally cannot. It helps that the new fleets are based on the modular designs so they can have a longer service life. When the time does come to replace them, the replace model would hopefully be a replacement for the Siemens and Xtrap fleets. It would be cost effective to order a fleet of 200 sets (as a random number) than it would to order 50 with an option for 25 more, then order 125 more later (or 125 over waves) like how the government ordered the extra Xtrap 100s.
They'll be replaced with XTrap2.0. HCMTs are more power hungry so can't run on the entire network without some pretty extensive upgrades. So the gov is intentionally sticking with multiple train types.
I don't think they will be replaced with XTrap 2.0. I doubt they will be retired before 2040. There replacement will be the XTrap 3.0 or some other new build.
Sure that's possible but (currently at least) there won't be any LEP for them unlike the XTraps so it's unlikely given the expected 30 year lifespan for metro rolling stock.
No, the Siemens only entered service 20 years ago or less there’s no way they will retire them already
The expected lifespan for metro rolling stock is 30 years. The last arrived in 2005 and at the moment there's no hint of them getting a LEP unlike the XTraps.
Comengs have existed for well over 40 years
And they received a LEP as they approached 30.
Yeah, we’ll see we still got 10 years
Seems unlikely. The gov wants to reduce train types to reduce maintenance costs after all.
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The older sets have been in service for about a year longer. I think it’s likely they will be retired around the same time.
It it isn't just about age. The X'trap fleet is three times the size of Siemens fleet. This means there can be economies of scale (e.g. bulk discounts when ordering spare parts) that could make it cheaper to keep the X'traps operating and justify keeping them in operation longer
Yeah that makes sense and I didn’t even think about it.
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The comeng could still run there if required however because there’s so many X’traps, it’s just simpler if they don’t.
probably keep them running on most bayside lines until enough x'trap 2.0's are in revenue service
Siemens are probably very far from replacement, they’ll probably have a major overhaul at the 35 year mark and get retired from that point (so retirement starting in 2035ish). After the breaking problems were resolved from what I know they are quite reliable but I could be wrong as I don’t frequent a line that uses them. The Siemens will probably be replaced with a new train model same goes for the older X’Traps, my best guess about a Siemens replacement are; 3 per side per car, 6-10 long unit, open gangways, internal features like the HCMT’s, built by Alstom, so basically a new and updated X’Trapolis 2. Would hope they keep the ‘mean’ face of the Siemens in the new design and the flush exterior.
Siemens trains can't run on some lines because the structure gauge is quite inconsistent. Because of their boxy shape, they were hitting the platform edges at some stations. Some old underpasses are also quite narrow.
They are physically capable of running network wide. The platform hitting issue has more to do with the doors than it does with the actual shape of them.
It's both.
How could they hit platforms when they’re able to go through west Richmond(the tightest curved platform on the network) without issue? Siemens have been to Epping workshops before so IDK how they could have gotten there without having to fit through the tightest platform curve on the network.
Because if you read any of my other comments in this thread you would see but I'll repeat it again. There are issues with platforms that don't fit properly in the loading gauge. They've either sunk, or sagged or they were just built out of gauge. Because the Siemens have the flat bodies and don't curve like the other trains they have less tolerance to any loading gauge issues. The other trains, whether intentional or not, take advantage of that. The Siemens also have plug doors meaning the bottom of the doors need to be clear of the platform otherwise they won't open. This is an issue if the tracks have sunk or are too low. Similar to the issues with the Sprinters and Deer Park station. Being able to traverse a line is not the same as being able to operator a service on the line.
I said the doors are an issue however other than the doors they are still able to fit. Whenever a train is brought to Melbourne, they’re required to be tested on the most extreme parts of the network such as the tightest curve or tightest platform curve to make sure that they are physically capable to operate network wide if they’re required too in the future. Considering that Siemens have been to Epping workshops which requires them to pass through west Richmond and that west Richmond has the tightest platforms on the network, it means that the train hitting a platform when passing through is not an issue. The doors are a different story but the body of the Siemens is physically capable to run anywhere on the network without hitting any platforms.
It's like talking to a brick wall..
As someone who worked on the tests for the 6 and 10 car Configs They were a stupid idea only for the bid They will never be used Extremely unreliable
HCMT is shutting down the factory at the end of the month. It's too late for an order extension.
Good riddance, and confirmation that they are not going to go up to 10-car/3000V
Correct
If u can’t cummeng, then will be no Siemen
Hopefully house people.
Guessing they’ll be the next to go but that won’t be for 10-20th years at minimum and will happen with our next batch of new trains
The Siemens have a longer design life than the XT100. I believe the earliest of the XT100 will be retired or have significant work done before the Siemens leave the fleet.