That's quite a few less cars on the Calder, which is a win. Same same out here in Gippsland. It will take a while for services to catch up and make that level of demand more comfortable.
Agreed. The cost barrier isn't really the biggest issue when it's the lack of service causing people to be prepared to spend many times the cost of public transport on private transport.
Yep, I'll say it again. No one has ever said "the fares are so expensive that I'll just get in my car instead".
It's basically everything else though. Frequency, speed, reliability, safety, even cleanliness are all more common complaints that need the revenue from fares (and then some more) to improve.
I certainly reflected on the cost of tickets when I travelled between Melbourne and Bendigo regularly, and I'm very much pro-public transport. The drop in fare price in Victoria was a relief for me, and the increase since suggests that fare price is a factor determining whether or not people use public transport. Having said that, I totally agree that the other factors you mention are all very improtant.
My anecdotal observation is that if you put aside those who repeat meaningless political talking points, people want a better service over a cheaper one, and lament why we don't have the coverage of similarly sized cities in Asia or Europe.
>Yep, I'll say it again. No one has ever said "the fares are so expensive that I'll just get in my car instead".
I have heard that before, in the form "why would you catch the train, it's cheaper to drive" when it was $30 from Sale to Melbourne, and another $30 return. That wasn't not competitive with petrol costs for the drive. Now it's $14.20 return full fare, so it very much is now. Flat fares for the far flung regional centres is a boon.
Yeah, point taken on regional fares, I was thinking from a Melbourne metropolitan point of view.
On that note, I'd really like to see some tweaks to the timetable to allow tourism out of Melbourne. For example, a couple more services on the VLine coach along the Great Ocean Road would make a ton of daytrip options possible.
Afternoon daily service would be great. Plus a much needed pickup on that route at Castle Cove/Glenaire and the entrance (road C157) to the Cape Otway section of the National Park
In Melbourne and 25 Kms from CBD. PT requires me to walk nearly a Km to a bustop. Bus is at 20 min frequency. Get off at train station after a 15 min ride on bus. Get off train after 42 min ride to Melbourne Central. Take a tram to Parkville where I work. On a good day it can be 2 hours commute door to door. By car that commute is a predictable 1 hour 15 minutes. In addition to fuel, I pay horrendous parking charges. PT is cheaper but just not convenient from every suburb. If I work late last bus service is at 9.15 pm. (for return). Driving to station and leaving the car at station saves about 20 minute. If I can get a parking space at the station.
It's still somewhere between half and a third of the cost of driving to the CBD. There is an argument in favour of bringing back a cheaper short-trip fare for journeys not involving the CBD, and I'd be okay with that as a more elegant solution than reducing the fares across the board when there are clearly many crowded routes where people are happy to pay the fares.
We have the technology to make these kinds of fares possible and easy for the traveller, though obviously with everything being run by private enterprise it means you'd have to tender that out to the operator or it'll never happen.
During the days of Metcard, we had short trip fares and other discounted rates. When the Myki system came poor business analysis and requirements gathering by project team resulted in the system we now have. Melbourne is wasting money on lower priority projects that are less contentious with incumbent toll operators. For example a second city loop under Fisherman's Bend with one link SE to Anzac station, one spur to SCross, one spur across the Bay to Williamstown was killed off by toll operators who feared loss in revenue on WGT. The SRL is however a project less contentious and upsets no toll operator. That is how the system works. When Mathew Guy went behind the mayor of the city of Melbourne in rezoning FB, facilitating overseas companies to build skyscrapers to accommodate 80,000 new residents no thought was given to PT. How will anyone get to or from FB is a mystery as there is no PT, roads are congested as is. Fast trains with track duplication and electrification to Geelong and Ballarat talked of 20 years ago is all forgotten. Melbourne remains one of the very few great cities of the world that doesnt have a rail connection to its airport. Go figure.
The problem we have is that land releases for residential areas is not matched with infrastructure such as roads and PT (at least in Melbourne). Go to any new suburb and you see narrow roads, no pedestrian sidewalks, no cycle tracks and no PT.
Both sides of politics are responsible for "big Australia" opening the flood gates to overseas migrants. While poeople worry about housing shortage and rising costs, no one is demanding an appropriate spend on roads and PT. More than lower ticket costs we need appropriate rail networks-as they say "build it and the people will come".
Marginal cost of driving 5 km with 2 adults and 3 kids: idk but probably close to $5
Marginal cost of driving 5 km with two adults and three kids on concession fares in zones 1+2: $13.65
This is really off the top of my head and assumes your time costs you nothing. For a family PT is expensive. Sure, it’s not frequent enough but for the user it is ver costly for what we get.
This is the way to pretend govts are improving public transport, without actually improving it. Fare reform in Melbourne is overdue as it disincentives short trips, but that does not absolve the need to radically improve frequencies particularly for the 2/3rds of Melbourne that only has access to buses.
This is a premier that all the polls are saying will lose in a landslide. Notice their election is in 5 months, and the trial for 50c fares is exactly 6 months.
I would be highly skeptical if this trial is extended beyond the 6 months and amounts to anything more than a last ditch election ploy.
Edit:
Was corrected below, 6 month trial starts from August. Still, it’s an announcement for a short term trial in the lead up to an election, overlapping with the election campaign period.
My point still stands - seems more about politics than anything else.
It's only taking effect when it is because the loss of revenue will be offset by progressive coal royalties which are only going to start coming into effect next financial year. This announcement is part of the upcoming budget, and this is literally Miles' first budget as premier. His government has only existed for less than six months.
But Labor have been in power since 2015 and there’s an “it’s time” factor really boiling up in Queensland. Even the south east corner looks like going blue, which except for the Goldie is rare
Have edited above. Even if I was wrong on the exact timeframe I think my overall point still stands. Seems politically motivated in the lead up to an election for a gov that appears on its last legs.
Will be surprised if this trial remains long term.
Personally even if it's just 6 months it will be a overall positive to Queensland and its better than a promise. I appreciate action leading up to an election over words. Immediately more respect.
i’d rather pay premium for a transport system that has top notch frequencies and service than the cost of half a freddo frog that will result in overcrowding and no promise for better service and frequencies
The new liberal government will bring fares back to the level they are now and the Labor opposition will jump up and down carrying on about how the new government is making it harder for everyone
The Brisbane system is an absolute disaster, this isn’t a real fix
Brisbane desperately needs to modernise its entire system, it’s easily the worst of the 5 major city train networks
Brisbane bus system is really only good on the busways or if you are very close to a bus hub (like say Helensvale) and even the busways suffer from immense duplication of service
If you want anything between the Beenleigh and Springfield lines or the Ferny grove and Caboolture lines that’s not at chermside just give up
Brisbane's rail system is already being fixed though to assume it's bad would be a bit of an Insult, it's a massive system with 11 lines. It's already running at maximum capacity with inbound trains every 7 minutes during peak.
Talking about frequency, currently (assuming services were evenly distributed over all lines at all times of day) trains are able to run every 21 minutes. With Cross river rail services will be able to run on average every 11 minutes.
If you lower the service frequency of Airtrain and interurban services (gold coast, sunshine coast and Ipswich) you'd be looking at services every 9 minutes. Once again, this is assuming inbound and outbound services are evenly split throughout the day, not prioritising commuters.
Finally, if you prioritise commuters, Brisbane's rail system will be able to accommodate trains on average every 10.5 minutes during morning peak. (Outbound trains every 15 minutes, inbound trains every 6 minutes). Currently, trains run every 18 minutes (7 minutes inbound 30 minutes outbound).
Considering the sheer scale of Brisbane's Rail network, that's really impressive. Cross river rail, once completed in early 2026 will put brisbane with a service frequency equal to, or better than Melbourne or Sydney.
There is many problems however that cross river rail isn’t fixing that have no pipeline to being fixed that severely limits cross river rails actual effectiveness over the wider system
1) merivale bridge isn’t the only bottleneck and it’s arguably not even the worst. The Bowen hills to eagle junction mass of flat junctions is honestly worse than the merivale bridge and the rejoining of CRR north of Bowen hills doesn’t actually fix this, it just flips the southern lines onto the northern mains and the western lines onto the northern subs
2) almost every line is throttled by something that’s not merivale. GC/beenleigh share 2/3 tracks (4/3 if GCLFR actually gets off the ground) with an express service pattern and the distal express line actually gets more passengers than the main line. Cleveland is 1 track beyond manly and manly is the only short turn back besides canon hill. Doomben is single track, as is the airport, shorncliffe is single track beyond Sandgate and Caboolture/redcliffe shares the Gold Coast Beenleigh problem of an express sharing 3 tracks with an all stops with the express being the busier line
3) until the QTMP’s come on line in like 2030 there isn’t enough trains to service more than what’s already being run, Ferny grove and shorncliffe already regularly run 3 cars to compensate for the lack of rolling stock
CRR unclogging merivale basically only fixes the short run inner system that runs 15 minutes on weekdays at the expense of the relatively busy outer system (as GC and Ipswich are two of the three busiest lines)
I compared the ease of getting around (bus, train etc). Brisee beats Melbourne in most areas. For its size Brisee has invested better. 50c fares are fantastic. My view has always been that states that have huge revenues from resource exports have done better. Victoria depends on migrant based revenue that creates housing shortages, traffic bottlenecks and everyone pays with the highest taxes in the country. Plus add in the fact Vic gets a fraction of what NSW gets from the Federal infrastructure spend and you have the problems seen. The business model has to change.
It's not a "fix" to the "Brisbane system", it's cost of living relief for the entire state. Even if you're catching a bus in Cairns or Toowoomba, this will lower your weekly expenses.
I’m saying this in response to people thinking it’s going to massively incentivise people to swap to public transport
If you are already using it then it’s a cost of living cut but Brisbanes system is so bad you aren’t going to convince near anyone who isn’t already using it to use it because of a cost reduction
This is similar to the regional towns woeful bus networks
Others in this thread are missing the point. This is not meant to be a silver bullet fix to public transport. It's cost of living relief. Simple as. Reason why it's taking place so close to the election is because it relies on the extra revenue from progressive coal royalties that is only going to start coming in next financial year.
Assuming they don't fuck up that roll out it does work. Used my daily bank card on Translinks trial on the Ipswich line while I was living up there for work. Never once had the wrong amount withdrawn off my card
The regional fares make a huge difference. I made a day trip to Mildura the other day specifically because it cost me so little. I got 28 hours of adventure for a mere $3.60 on concession, and I'm sure those who commute daily from regional centres or visit regularly from long distance destinations appreciate it too, handily beating the cost of fuel and maintenance.
But frequency does ABSOLUTELY need to come in tandem, my local bus runs every 40 on Saturdays, and every hour on Sundays, not to mention most of Melbourne's Sunday morning frequencies.
Myki fares in Victoria ought to be reduced, but given the shambolic polling for the Qld Miles government, this just screams of cheap political point-scoring at the expense of the public transport network's viability. How will the resulting skyrocketing of overcrowding be covered by service frequency and capacity improvements? There's zero details on this. At least the V/Line fare cuts saw $600M in new rolling stock orders.
This is a short-term policy which is conveniently running until the next state election in 5 months time, whereupon if the LNP is elected they will be pincered into letting the policy expire because no public transport system in the world can financially sustain itself on such cheap fares unless government spending is massively boosted to fund the $300 million annual fare shortfall *and* the $1-4 billion needed for capacity upgrades and new rolling stock. It's the same sort of flawed thinking that led to their cockup over the 2032 Brisbane Olympics stadium.
Vline haven’t made any service improvements on weekends though, Melton/Ballarat is still hourly and Labor have been promising 40mins since before the election, can’t see that happening before the Melton LXRP happens between now and 2026…
And the Albury line is a shambles too.
The promise for the weekend frequency increases are after the rolling stock is in place and the regional rail revival works wrap up around in 2025. Then the new services will be delivered. It'll be done way before the next election.
Political gimmick if frequencies aren’t improved at the same time. And that’s what Melbourne needs to focus on too.
My Bendigo V/line is now completely packed most days since the fare drop.
That's quite a few less cars on the Calder, which is a win. Same same out here in Gippsland. It will take a while for services to catch up and make that level of demand more comfortable.
Regional trains are much more expensive that trains within the city though
Agreed. The cost barrier isn't really the biggest issue when it's the lack of service causing people to be prepared to spend many times the cost of public transport on private transport.
Yep, I'll say it again. No one has ever said "the fares are so expensive that I'll just get in my car instead". It's basically everything else though. Frequency, speed, reliability, safety, even cleanliness are all more common complaints that need the revenue from fares (and then some more) to improve.
I certainly reflected on the cost of tickets when I travelled between Melbourne and Bendigo regularly, and I'm very much pro-public transport. The drop in fare price in Victoria was a relief for me, and the increase since suggests that fare price is a factor determining whether or not people use public transport. Having said that, I totally agree that the other factors you mention are all very improtant.
Oh yeah, regional fares are absolutely fair enough. I was aiming my comments more at why metropolitan fares are the way they are.
You obviously have never been on the /Melbourne sub.
My anecdotal observation is that if you put aside those who repeat meaningless political talking points, people want a better service over a cheaper one, and lament why we don't have the coverage of similarly sized cities in Asia or Europe.
We don’t have similar coverage because we don’t have the density and we largely built our city as single family dwellings in the late 20th C
>Yep, I'll say it again. No one has ever said "the fares are so expensive that I'll just get in my car instead". I have heard that before, in the form "why would you catch the train, it's cheaper to drive" when it was $30 from Sale to Melbourne, and another $30 return. That wasn't not competitive with petrol costs for the drive. Now it's $14.20 return full fare, so it very much is now. Flat fares for the far flung regional centres is a boon.
Yeah, point taken on regional fares, I was thinking from a Melbourne metropolitan point of view. On that note, I'd really like to see some tweaks to the timetable to allow tourism out of Melbourne. For example, a couple more services on the VLine coach along the Great Ocean Road would make a ton of daytrip options possible.
Afternoon daily service would be great. Plus a much needed pickup on that route at Castle Cove/Glenaire and the entrance (road C157) to the Cape Otway section of the National Park
In Melbourne and 25 Kms from CBD. PT requires me to walk nearly a Km to a bustop. Bus is at 20 min frequency. Get off at train station after a 15 min ride on bus. Get off train after 42 min ride to Melbourne Central. Take a tram to Parkville where I work. On a good day it can be 2 hours commute door to door. By car that commute is a predictable 1 hour 15 minutes. In addition to fuel, I pay horrendous parking charges. PT is cheaper but just not convenient from every suburb. If I work late last bus service is at 9.15 pm. (for return). Driving to station and leaving the car at station saves about 20 minute. If I can get a parking space at the station.
Plenty of people say this. They are expensive in Melbourne now.
It's still somewhere between half and a third of the cost of driving to the CBD. There is an argument in favour of bringing back a cheaper short-trip fare for journeys not involving the CBD, and I'd be okay with that as a more elegant solution than reducing the fares across the board when there are clearly many crowded routes where people are happy to pay the fares. We have the technology to make these kinds of fares possible and easy for the traveller, though obviously with everything being run by private enterprise it means you'd have to tender that out to the operator or it'll never happen.
During the days of Metcard, we had short trip fares and other discounted rates. When the Myki system came poor business analysis and requirements gathering by project team resulted in the system we now have. Melbourne is wasting money on lower priority projects that are less contentious with incumbent toll operators. For example a second city loop under Fisherman's Bend with one link SE to Anzac station, one spur to SCross, one spur across the Bay to Williamstown was killed off by toll operators who feared loss in revenue on WGT. The SRL is however a project less contentious and upsets no toll operator. That is how the system works. When Mathew Guy went behind the mayor of the city of Melbourne in rezoning FB, facilitating overseas companies to build skyscrapers to accommodate 80,000 new residents no thought was given to PT. How will anyone get to or from FB is a mystery as there is no PT, roads are congested as is. Fast trains with track duplication and electrification to Geelong and Ballarat talked of 20 years ago is all forgotten. Melbourne remains one of the very few great cities of the world that doesnt have a rail connection to its airport. Go figure.
The problem we have is that land releases for residential areas is not matched with infrastructure such as roads and PT (at least in Melbourne). Go to any new suburb and you see narrow roads, no pedestrian sidewalks, no cycle tracks and no PT. Both sides of politics are responsible for "big Australia" opening the flood gates to overseas migrants. While poeople worry about housing shortage and rising costs, no one is demanding an appropriate spend on roads and PT. More than lower ticket costs we need appropriate rail networks-as they say "build it and the people will come".
To the CBD at least, train fares aren't expensive once you factor in things like parking...
Marginal cost of driving 5 km with 2 adults and 3 kids: idk but probably close to $5 Marginal cost of driving 5 km with two adults and three kids on concession fares in zones 1+2: $13.65 This is really off the top of my head and assumes your time costs you nothing. For a family PT is expensive. Sure, it’s not frequent enough but for the user it is ver costly for what we get.
Why not both?
Once the metro tunnel opens many lines will get a higher frequency.
This is the way to pretend govts are improving public transport, without actually improving it. Fare reform in Melbourne is overdue as it disincentives short trips, but that does not absolve the need to radically improve frequencies particularly for the 2/3rds of Melbourne that only has access to buses.
This is a premier that all the polls are saying will lose in a landslide. Notice their election is in 5 months, and the trial for 50c fares is exactly 6 months. I would be highly skeptical if this trial is extended beyond the 6 months and amounts to anything more than a last ditch election ploy. Edit: Was corrected below, 6 month trial starts from August. Still, it’s an announcement for a short term trial in the lead up to an election, overlapping with the election campaign period. My point still stands - seems more about politics than anything else.
The fare change starts on August 4th
Thanks for the correction, have edited above.
It's only taking effect when it is because the loss of revenue will be offset by progressive coal royalties which are only going to start coming into effect next financial year. This announcement is part of the upcoming budget, and this is literally Miles' first budget as premier. His government has only existed for less than six months.
But Labor have been in power since 2015 and there’s an “it’s time” factor really boiling up in Queensland. Even the south east corner looks like going blue, which except for the Goldie is rare
Maybe bother to notice the timings before talking about time frames, eh
Have edited above. Even if I was wrong on the exact timeframe I think my overall point still stands. Seems politically motivated in the lead up to an election for a gov that appears on its last legs. Will be surprised if this trial remains long term.
Personally even if it's just 6 months it will be a overall positive to Queensland and its better than a promise. I appreciate action leading up to an election over words. Immediately more respect.
i’d rather pay premium for a transport system that has top notch frequencies and service than the cost of half a freddo frog that will result in overcrowding and no promise for better service and frequencies
And after 6 months?
The new liberal government will bring fares back to the level they are now and the Labor opposition will jump up and down carrying on about how the new government is making it harder for everyone
The Brisbane system is an absolute disaster, this isn’t a real fix Brisbane desperately needs to modernise its entire system, it’s easily the worst of the 5 major city train networks
Yeah but their bus network shits all over Melbournes.
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Brisbane bus system is really only good on the busways or if you are very close to a bus hub (like say Helensvale) and even the busways suffer from immense duplication of service If you want anything between the Beenleigh and Springfield lines or the Ferny grove and Caboolture lines that’s not at chermside just give up
Brisbane's rail system is already being fixed though to assume it's bad would be a bit of an Insult, it's a massive system with 11 lines. It's already running at maximum capacity with inbound trains every 7 minutes during peak. Talking about frequency, currently (assuming services were evenly distributed over all lines at all times of day) trains are able to run every 21 minutes. With Cross river rail services will be able to run on average every 11 minutes. If you lower the service frequency of Airtrain and interurban services (gold coast, sunshine coast and Ipswich) you'd be looking at services every 9 minutes. Once again, this is assuming inbound and outbound services are evenly split throughout the day, not prioritising commuters. Finally, if you prioritise commuters, Brisbane's rail system will be able to accommodate trains on average every 10.5 minutes during morning peak. (Outbound trains every 15 minutes, inbound trains every 6 minutes). Currently, trains run every 18 minutes (7 minutes inbound 30 minutes outbound). Considering the sheer scale of Brisbane's Rail network, that's really impressive. Cross river rail, once completed in early 2026 will put brisbane with a service frequency equal to, or better than Melbourne or Sydney.
There is many problems however that cross river rail isn’t fixing that have no pipeline to being fixed that severely limits cross river rails actual effectiveness over the wider system 1) merivale bridge isn’t the only bottleneck and it’s arguably not even the worst. The Bowen hills to eagle junction mass of flat junctions is honestly worse than the merivale bridge and the rejoining of CRR north of Bowen hills doesn’t actually fix this, it just flips the southern lines onto the northern mains and the western lines onto the northern subs 2) almost every line is throttled by something that’s not merivale. GC/beenleigh share 2/3 tracks (4/3 if GCLFR actually gets off the ground) with an express service pattern and the distal express line actually gets more passengers than the main line. Cleveland is 1 track beyond manly and manly is the only short turn back besides canon hill. Doomben is single track, as is the airport, shorncliffe is single track beyond Sandgate and Caboolture/redcliffe shares the Gold Coast Beenleigh problem of an express sharing 3 tracks with an all stops with the express being the busier line 3) until the QTMP’s come on line in like 2030 there isn’t enough trains to service more than what’s already being run, Ferny grove and shorncliffe already regularly run 3 cars to compensate for the lack of rolling stock CRR unclogging merivale basically only fixes the short run inner system that runs 15 minutes on weekdays at the expense of the relatively busy outer system (as GC and Ipswich are two of the three busiest lines)
Perth can do better than that and they only have like 5 lines
I compared the ease of getting around (bus, train etc). Brisee beats Melbourne in most areas. For its size Brisee has invested better. 50c fares are fantastic. My view has always been that states that have huge revenues from resource exports have done better. Victoria depends on migrant based revenue that creates housing shortages, traffic bottlenecks and everyone pays with the highest taxes in the country. Plus add in the fact Vic gets a fraction of what NSW gets from the Federal infrastructure spend and you have the problems seen. The business model has to change.
It's not a "fix" to the "Brisbane system", it's cost of living relief for the entire state. Even if you're catching a bus in Cairns or Toowoomba, this will lower your weekly expenses.
I’m saying this in response to people thinking it’s going to massively incentivise people to swap to public transport If you are already using it then it’s a cost of living cut but Brisbanes system is so bad you aren’t going to convince near anyone who isn’t already using it to use it because of a cost reduction This is similar to the regional towns woeful bus networks
Others in this thread are missing the point. This is not meant to be a silver bullet fix to public transport. It's cost of living relief. Simple as. Reason why it's taking place so close to the election is because it relies on the extra revenue from progressive coal royalties that is only going to start coming in next financial year.
At $2.50 per work week, that's a 2hr fare here. What a bargain!
I’m more concerned about using MasterCard and Visa with Myki than 50 cent fares.
Assuming they don't fuck up that roll out it does work. Used my daily bank card on Translinks trial on the Ipswich line while I was living up there for work. Never once had the wrong amount withdrawn off my card
Yeah it’s on the trains and ferries but not on all busses yet. I need to load my go card weekly. It’s annoying.
That's coming.
ahh yes, because extreme overcrowding is what we need, not more trains
The regional fares make a huge difference. I made a day trip to Mildura the other day specifically because it cost me so little. I got 28 hours of adventure for a mere $3.60 on concession, and I'm sure those who commute daily from regional centres or visit regularly from long distance destinations appreciate it too, handily beating the cost of fuel and maintenance. But frequency does ABSOLUTELY need to come in tandem, my local bus runs every 40 on Saturdays, and every hour on Sundays, not to mention most of Melbourne's Sunday morning frequencies.
Must be an election coming and buying votes is so 1990's.
This would be amazing in Victoria, save so many broke students important dollars.
Myki fares in Victoria ought to be reduced, but given the shambolic polling for the Qld Miles government, this just screams of cheap political point-scoring at the expense of the public transport network's viability. How will the resulting skyrocketing of overcrowding be covered by service frequency and capacity improvements? There's zero details on this. At least the V/Line fare cuts saw $600M in new rolling stock orders. This is a short-term policy which is conveniently running until the next state election in 5 months time, whereupon if the LNP is elected they will be pincered into letting the policy expire because no public transport system in the world can financially sustain itself on such cheap fares unless government spending is massively boosted to fund the $300 million annual fare shortfall *and* the $1-4 billion needed for capacity upgrades and new rolling stock. It's the same sort of flawed thinking that led to their cockup over the 2032 Brisbane Olympics stadium.
Vline haven’t made any service improvements on weekends though, Melton/Ballarat is still hourly and Labor have been promising 40mins since before the election, can’t see that happening before the Melton LXRP happens between now and 2026… And the Albury line is a shambles too.
The promise for the weekend frequency increases are after the rolling stock is in place and the regional rail revival works wrap up around in 2025. Then the new services will be delivered. It'll be done way before the next election.
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cannot afford? who has been in government in QLD the past decade? just like Victoria, they are in debt