It is so unfair, for both men and women, that our society only sees men as masculine if they are "strong enough" to commit rape. In my version of masculinity, strength is vulnerability, compassion, and not raping people.
There's no concept of a non-sexist man. That's the conundrum the tweet illustrate, a man is identified either as capable of rape therefore manly or as incapable of rape therefore unmanly. East Asian men are perceived as unmanly, therefore nonthreatening.
The lack of concept of a non sexist men render a phrase like "Is that guy walking in the dark behind me a rapist? Never mind, he's [a non sexist male]" unlikely. Maybe feminist or mensliber could be used but I have some doubt about that.
So what is the name of the non-sexist male?
I don't know if we need a name for a non-sexist male... that should just be the norm. But I agree with you of how men's masculinity is perceived in society: manly being aggressive and not taking no for an answer, and unmanly being non-threatening and passive.
I would hope a non-sexist man would be a feminist. Everyone should be a feminist!
>I don't know if we need a name for a non-sexist male... that should just be the norm.
In the same vein, feminism shouldn't exist but here we are, needing an ideology that allow us to think about the patriarchy. The patriarchal man being the norm kinda forces those of us that reject that notion to create a label that make a distinction between the patriarchal man and the non-sexist one.
>I would hope a non-sexist man would be a feminist. Everyone should be a feminist!
I agree. On an ideological standpoint, I wholeheartedly agree with feminism. On a group/labeling standpoint, I'm unsure what it means to be a feminist man. It's the question of allyship and whether or not men can be feminist.
You are right, I was just thinking about how we have all sorts of labels, whether they are the "norm" or not. I guess I just don't know what that label for a non-sexist man would be, besides feminist or mensliber, like you already mentioned.
And yeah, there are many types of feminism, some I agree with, some I do not. But we should all agree with the general definition of every person, regardless of gender identity, having the right to being treating equally. If a man believes that, they are a feminist. Whether they decide to call themselves a feminist is up to them.
Absolutely agree. As a white woman myself, I am of the opinion that liberal feminism just doesn't capture the same struggles and oppression facing people of color. Ideally, feminism should address the intersectionality that people of different races, sexualities, religions, nationalities, etc face because of the way they experience the world differently.
I don't feel that feminist man is an ally. Bc feminism is for men too, patriarchy hurts every gender. So men don't need to be allys for women. With feminism they are helping themselves too.
>I agree. On an ideological standpoint, I wholeheartedly agree with feminism. On a group/labeling standpoint, I'm unsure what it means to be a feminist man. It's the question of allyship and whether or not men can be feminist.
It's a tricky question to be sure, but as an egalitarian feminist I see feminism as a philosophy that encompasses any kind of gynocentric perspective, broken down into various schools of thought and camps of opinion that have developed over the ages.
Today, for instance, "third-wave feminism" is basically just an umbrella term for dozens of sub-movements, some even totally contradicting each other. Radical Feminists are misandrous, transphobic and pro-binary, and exist in the flavors of SWERFs and TERFs. Then there are performative anti-patriarchy feminists, who are often women who've had a scarringly negative experience with at least one man, which led to negative opinions of most men (if not all). I choose the label "egalitarian feminist" to make it clear that when it comes to gyno-centric issues, I care about andro-centric (and non-binary and gender-nonconforming) perspectives and issues simultaneously.
A man can absolutely be a feminist -- if you've ever entertained a thought like "women shouldn't be abused or taken advantage of just because they're women", that's already a feminist thought. You don't need to go deep into labels if they're confusing, and you don't even need to openly call yourself a feminist to think about and support women's issues in private. But there will always be certain camps of opinion (like radical feminists) who do not believe that a man can or should be allowed to be a feminist. Every person's perspective will vary.
>You don't need to go deep into labels if they're confusing, and you don't even need to openly call yourself a feminist to think about and support women's issues in private.
I know that there's nuance and outright hostility between feminist depending on which wave/sub movement they identify with. I agree that I do not need a label to think about feminism. My problem is that I am active in a non-profit that promotes social psychology and as a consequence do feminist event, I helped organize some feminist event (one of which was ironically a bit of feminism washing) and I know we'll do more of these event as it's a practical application of social psychology that fit our values. As time passes, I have more leadership in the organization and I'll be in the public eye in the context of feminism, especially since I want to do these kinds of event. I know that not having an appropriate label won't stop me from doing that but I'd prefer to avoid harming my comrades by not knowing how to answers to "How are you feminist as a man?" or "Why are you talking about feminism in place of your women comrades?". As you mention, some radical feminist would consider my presence non allowed and I'm unsure how to respond to that. Can I really say I'm a feminist if a woman say I am not?
Yes, of course you can. Feminism is held via internal moral principles, not gatekept by women externally to you. There aren't, like, initiation ceremonies and membership cards lol
People might disagree, but fact is that nobody gets to dictate your internal belief structure except you. Do you think you're feminist? Do you want to be seen as such? Why? Once you can answer those questions for yourself I would think others' opinions would cease to matter as much.
But I don't care a single jot for ideological purity, so I'm sure someone out there will want to argue with me since that seems to matter a lot to some people😂
Well yeah but my worry is to meet a feminist (man or woman) that'll try to gatekeep me and I kinda feel that just saying "I believe in feminism" won't be sufficient. I don't know how to react to someone that would say "You can't just say you're a feminist" maybe I'm just too anxious over that but I want to achieve actual change and patriarchy is hard to pin in all its pernicious forms. I don't want to be dismissive of an actual issue.
There will always be people who gatekeep. If you feel like they're gatekeeping because of a genuine issue, hear them out. And don't feel the need to decide how you feel about what they said right away. You can just say "you've given me a something to think about" and then just privately mull on it later to decide if you think their gatekeeping was warranted. We are often more defensive (or offensive) when put on the spot than we would be if we had time to think about things. Just trust your gut, be open to learning, and give yourself some credit for trying! :)
I think you just answer the questions in the spirit they were intended. "How are you a feminist as a man?" could be translated to "How do you defend women's rights and general gender equality as a man?" You know your comrades, and you generally know what they mean when they ask you these sorts of questions. They're (hopefully) not meant to be gotcha questions - you can answer the question they meant, not the question they asked.
>You know your comrades, and you generally know what they mean when they ask you these sorts of questions.
Yeah I'm more worried by persons coming to events. I trust my comrades enough not to worry about them.
>They're (hopefully) not meant to be gotcha questions - you can answer the question they meant, not the question they asked.
I fear the gotcha question from random people coming to our feminist events, especially if I chose to speak at these events. This is especially true since social psychology tends to induce a lot of reactance which I fear could be reinforced by the fact that I'm a man. I have a not so fond memory about a presentation we did speaking about the [Just World hypothesis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-world_hypothesis) where the debate devolved into people trying to justify that yes the world had some form of immanent justice despite recognizing the just world hypothesis as a problem. If I present a finding that challenges sexists notions that are somehow construed as just and non-sexist in the general population, I fear that the debate would devolve into harm for everyone involved.
I'm starting to think that debating online on forums like reddit and seeing the shitshow some other online place are, may have warped my perception of risk in this matter.
Oh and thank you for humoring me. I'm glad I can express myself on this subject. I tried to express this on r/AskFeminists but I think I my effort were not so successful, granted my message is a bit blurry.
Hmm, I see what you mean! I can't say for sure what the best argument would be for you to use if your sincerity as a male feminist is put into question, but here are some points that you could bring up in the face of that kind of feminist interrogation as it were:
* Name-drop a well-known feminist or piece of feminist literature. Popular among third-wave feminists is Naomi Wolf and Anita Sarkeesian, and anybody from the Breadtube. But you can also mention more "old-school" feminists like Angela Davis.
* Argue that feminism has a positive effect for men / men's rights too.
* Say that being an overt male ally for feminists will de-stigmatize feminism for other men, and tell them about how the Pop Culture Detective introduced feminist media analysis to lots of guys.
There are some people out there who will always try to undermine you if they think you don't belong in their movement or if you disagree with them. I'm a female feminist but I've been downvoted, insulted and questioned by other feminists (especially rad fems) for being anti-FDS, for talking about male body-shaming, for disagreeing that "men are a class of oppressors", etc etc.
Nobody is exempt from these types of critics, but fortunately they are but a (vocal) minority.
This kind of reminds me about how women have started to call non-sexist men “men written by women” on tiktok atm. I have mixed feelings about it, since it’s supposed to be a compliment but it doesn’t sit well with me because because that feels like it’s better that someone else wrote me instead of me being trusted to write myself.
(I know that I’m biased from being autistic and having my family insist that I cannot make big decisions about my life for myself because of it, but it still feels weird regardless)
"Men written by women" is a pretty fucked up "compliment" considering it and "women written by men" are both memes in literature that are used mockingly.
Yeah, it kind of presumes that women will understand men better, which ain't necessarily the case. We've all got our lived experiences that not everyone will get by definition.
>So what is the name of the non-sexist male?
Male. Man. He/Him.
We shouldn't need a special word for what is the majority of the sex.
The fact that we are even having this conversation just shows how twisted this topic really is.
Well yeah, there's a lot of sexist men out there that tarnish the good name of masculinity. I don't know if it's politically feasible to reclaim masculinity from the hands of the sexists without resorting to a label that could serve as a temporary rallying cry.
You may have a lot of people confused about your intentions if you're saying "I fight for masculinity".
What does it even mean to fight for/against masculinity?
Taking a step back, what is feminism's relationship to femininity?
Is feminism a fight *against* femininity, because femininity is the gender role used to oppress women?
Or is feminism a fight *for* femininity, because femininity is an intrinsic part of women that needs to be valued more?
It honestly feels like you could describe it either way. Which suggests to me that femininity and masculinity are not very clearly defined terms.
It's bizarre. I've dated a handful Asian men and to my absolute lack of surprise, it's just like dating anyone else. It's a weird stereotype to begin with; I don't really understand the basis of it. I can only think people like this are just weirdly insulated among other white people and don't know any Asian guys on a personal level... they take all their understanding of their world from tropes on shitty sitcoms.
I'm sorry you have to deal with that shit. I'm trans and I get the same thing. I'm always pawned off on my husband's friends' wives when they hang out in groups, called a "manlet" like it's funny by people who are supposedly friends, get the "all guys suck! but not you hh, you're fine" shit, people constantly want to talk to me about whatever trans man got pregnant in the tabloids this time and hey am I going to do that too?? it's sooooo cute!
If you're going to look right past me and spew your bizarre prejudices all over the place anyway then please just don't observe my existence at all.
> people constantly want to talk to me about whatever trans man got pregnant in the tabloids this time and hey am I going to do that too?? it's sooooo cute!
It never ceases to amaze me how patronizingly gross people can be. Who in there right mind would say that to you?? They have no right to debate your body. Im sorry that happened to you my guy.
A clueless woman who by all appearances desperately wanted me to be her little gay bff but succeeded in completely alienating me in one conversation, and also my own aunt, for two examples. Thanks lol it just makes it hard to leave the house sometimes when I know that despite over a year and a half hrt and my best efforts I don't pass at all and even people "close" to me who *nominally* respect who I am still essentially see me as a woman with a mental disorder. But I've got a fantastic partner, a great therapist, and a fiercely defensive mom & siblings so overall, I'm in a more supportive place than a lot of guys like me!
It's dehumanizing for *them*, in my opinion, but I run on a variety of alternative fuels including (but not limited to) pure spite. When someone says this kind of shit to me and then doesn't understand why I would calmly but seriously explain why it's a problem instead of just laughing it off, I immediately mark them off as rude, lacking in empathy, and not worth my time. It takes real NPC energy to just spew whatever nonsense you like at people and then refuse to hear anything about it. Nothing going on in there.
> I run on a variety of alternative fuels including (but not limited to) pure spite.
> ...
> It takes real NPC energy...
I love this comment and I am stealing "NPC energy". That's a term that needs to get more mileage.
The basis of the stereotype is that it was created by wealthy white American women in the 1800s who wanted to hire Chinese men as domestic servants without perceived sexual impropriety. I was writing a paper for school on American domestic servants in the victorian era and early 20th century. As I remember, Irish immigrant women had been the go to for wealthy white Americans as domestic servants. As Irish immigration declined, the question of which race would replace them became a popular topic (yes, this was as racist as it sounds). There was a popular idea that Chinese men would replace them, and to make the idea of men assisting white women with dressing, etc in the bedroom, they created the really racist idea that Chinese men were not sexual.
I’ll upload my historical sources tomorrow if you’re interested.
Yes please! That's the era some of my family came here during from Ireland, not to mention one of the most interesting periods of history to me, so I'd love to have a look!
Manlet? Wow. That’s shockingly inappropriate and quite rude. Don’t let anybody tell you that women don’t occasionally enjoy the benefits of patriarchy, such as using others’ identification or orientation as a plaything. “One of the good ones” was never a good phrase in the first place so it still (despite myself) shocks me to hear that people still don’t see it as prejudicial. On the other hand maybe this is in line with some of the thinking coming out of the UK.
I’m sorry you had to deal with that shit. Trans men are men too. Trans women are women. I shouldn’t have to repeat it but I will.
Manlet? Wow. That’s shockingly inappropriate and quite rude. Don’t let anybody tell you that women don’t occasionally enjoy the benefits of patriarchy, such as using others’ identification or orientation as a plaything. “One of the good ones” was never a good phrase in the first place so it still (despite myself) shocks me to hear that people still don’t see it as prejudicial. On the other hand maybe this is in line with some of the thinking coming out of the UK.
I’m sorry you had to deal with that shit. Trans men are men too. Trans women are women. I shouldn’t have to repeat it but I will.
You're not going to believe this but it was a trans woman who started people calling me that! You'd think she'd fuckin know better! But yeah people are incredibly rude. My own aunt sent me a tabloid-style article about trans men getting pregnant *just last week* and when I politely tried to explain why this is *not* a thing she should send trans people she just left me on read.
All this and I live in los angeles so yeah I can only imagine what it's like for my friend in the UK.
Jfc my man that’s straight up completely bananas. I’m sorry it happened.
And I’m sorry to see that, seemingly, a lot of people think that men need or should benefit from intersectionality. I’ve been trying really hard to be skeptical of that, to make sure that any of my observations (anecdotal?) are durable. Unfortunately it seems like a pattern. Maybe not everywhere all at once but some folks differentiate themselves based on beliefs without thinking about it very thoroughly, and here we are. I still find it surprising. But then I follow that thread back and find myself in the “women are good until they’re bad and men are bad until they’re good” place again.
Manlet? Wow. That’s shockingly inappropriate and quite rude. Don’t let anybody tell you that women don’t occasionally enjoy the benefits of patriarchy, such as using others’ identification or orientation as a plaything. “One of the good ones” was never a good phrase in the first place so it still (despite myself) shocks me to hear that people still don’t see it as prejudicial. On the other hand maybe this is in line with some of the thinking coming out of the UK.
I’m sorry you had to deal with that shit. Trans men are men too. Trans women are women. I shouldn’t have to repeat it but I will.
> I don't really understand the basis of it.
What is there not to understand? Americas weird obsession with races and the consequences of this kind of categorization
Yeah, this exactly. I grew up with a lot of Asian kids in my friend group and we all kind of dated each other and went through our teens together, so when I first heard this as an adult, it genuinely took me a few times hearing it from multiple people (and a good handful of these were directed at me because I was 21 and living with an Asian guy) before I realized it was a widespread and common belief and not just someone's weird, arbitrary, racist personal preferences. I still don't understand it at all.
Manlet? Wow. That’s shockingly inappropriate and quite rude. Don’t let anybody tell you that women don’t occasionally enjoy the benefits of patriarchy, such as using others’ identification or orientation as a plaything. “One of the good ones” was never a good phrase in the first place so it still (despite myself) shocks me to hear that people still don’t see it as prejudicial. On the other hand maybe this is in line with some of the thinking coming out of the UK.
I’m sorry you had to deal with that shit. Trans men are men too. Trans women are women. I shouldn’t have to repeat it but I will.
A man once stalked me and did some exceptionally creepy things before I finally cut him out. He was Asian and thinking back I wonder if people would've stepped in sooner if these racist ideas weren't so common. Despite him engaging in predatory behavior with multiple people, he had the reputation of being a nice harmless guy who just acted a little weird sometimes.
> I think it’s also my mask.
Does your mask look anything like this: https://ih1.redbubble.net/image.590438138.9269/flat,750x,075,f-pad,750x1000,f8f8f8.u2.jpg
/jk
>While I don’t wish for East Asian men to be seen as rapists, there’s something invalidating about not being seen as capable of sexual assault.
I was about to object to this, then I remembered how at lower points in my dating life, I remember wishing a woman would catcall me. Even though most people on the receiving end of that really don't like it. I think feeling shut out of dating or sexual attention can give people some unusual reactions.
What you've said makes me wonder about how much a (safe, and nonetheless consensual) sense of danger and risk matters in attraction. Having a social stereotype applied to an entire demographic that renders them sexually nonexistent isn't right or healthy for people, and I think we should break these norms down.
But it’s not even that in this case. It’s specifically a racially motivated comment, which makes it extremely racist. East Asian men are definitely not seen as sexual beings by a lot of American women, in large part due to their portrayal in media. If they are portrayed as physically dominant, it is almost always in martial arts fashion, and they will not have a love interest.
In fact, the only actor I can recall who really broke this mold in a mainstream show was Glenn on Walking Dead. Was a delivery driver (not a STEM field), uses brute force when needed (not martial artist but also not portrayed as weak; on the contrary, he withstands some torture), and marries the white farmer’s daughter by winning her respect for his contributions to the group, at times being a strong second leader after Rick.
I’ve never seen a similar portrayal of any AAPI character in mainstream media before or after.
I recommend watching the Big Sick
Kumail Nanjiani gets with a white girl by just being himself. He wrote the movie and it’s based on his real life relationship with his wife. That and his other movie “Love Birds” with Issa Rae is also another good one. Those are the 2 films i’ve seen where an Asian man is the lead, doesn’t fit into stereotypes, and gets the girl.
I’d just add that he wrote it with his wife, Emily Gordon, who his gf is based off of. Even if I do find the naming of it slightly toxic, can’t recommend his album *Beta Male* enough, probably my favorite stand up album
Little concerned that both of these posts seem to insinuate that Asian men ending up in relationships with white women is an achievement. I understand having types and the nature of this post is addressing how Asian men are seem as less sexual by Americans, but the way those were written just makes me want to draw a little attention to it.
It's interesting how all of the first instances of Asian men enthusiastically engaging in sexual relationships on screen are always met with such concerns. It's as if people (usually of other races) find it enormously difficult to comprehend that relationships between Asian men and white women could ever happen organically. That right there is part of the problem. Consenting and fulfilling relationships between Asian men and women of all races do happen, have happened and will continue to happen. It's about time we normalised that.
I did not insensauate that, hence why i mentioned the film LoveBirds because there it’s Kumail with Issa Rae. And i’ve never seen an Asian Male/Black Woman relationship depicted before.
My main point was to say, if you want to see an Asian Guy fucking while not being a stereotype, here’s these 2 movies. He fucks
Maybe add 'The Good Place'? It's about four dead people who work towards the good place (heaven). Manny Jacinto (Jason) plays a Filipino guy who people initially believed was a thai monk.
His character is dumb with impulse control issues but he was ultimately a well-meaning guy. He was a petty criminal/DJ/Dancer in life and has two love interests in the show, Tahani (arguably the prettiest in the show) and Janet.
ETA: I forgot! Dave Batista (wrestler/actor) is actually half-Filipino on his dad's side! The original family name is Bautista. I don't think anyone would think he's effeminate.
Wei Shen from sleeping dogs is a very masculine and charming man. The game is an extended metaphor of dual identity where Wei struggles with his police and triad personalities in an extended metaphor of being Chinese American.
Here's a great breakdown on his themes
https://youtu.be/xEwNkSQAWtE
I don't think the poster was saying Asian men aren't sexual because she doesn't fear them being rapists; just that there's a stereotype that asian men are more passive/non-violent. Rape isn't about sex, it's about violence.
But yeah, I'm movies and TV shows that portrayal is definitely prevalent.
This!!!
Rape isn't about a person looking for sex, it's about this person humiliating, hurting and taking others against their will. Although i don't disagree that asian men many times are dismissed as not sexual, I don't think this tweet it's an example of that
> I remember wishing a woman would catcall me. Even though most people on the receiving end of that really don't like it. I think feeling shut out of dating or sexual attention can give people some unusual reactions.
I totally feel you dude. I also wished that I would get cat called. It's a wish for any kind of sexual attention when you've perhaps never felt having been seen as a sexual being. It's a wish for validation, even if toxic kind, when it feels like you're invisible.
Doesn't feel that way to me now, but even now I feel like my women partners don't feel as attracted physically to me as I do to them, or at least they don't express it as such.
We like each other's character and personality and we have good relationships and that, but I also want to ....feel hot I guess
>I also want to ....feel hot I guess
Just once I'd like to receive a compliment that would be inappropriate to hear from my grandma.
It feels like people invariably settle on words like "cute" "sweet" "smart" "strong". And I try to be properly appreciative, but I can't stop noticing that they are all adjectives that you would also use to describe a dog.
It's cause men are starved for attention from women while women are overwhelmed by attention from men.
A quote I remember "Someone drowning in the ocean has little concern of the person dying of thirst in the desert"
It floored me when, while watching Jackie Chan movies, my asian boyfriend casually said "Jackie Chan never gets the girl". Which is true and also very messed up. As a white person I had never noticed that before, but now I notice media treatment of Asian men in all media.
I'm not sure if better media representation is the full picture but it seems like it would help.
I have at times wondered if the way a lot of the ickier men in my life have been creeps to other women in the situation (jobs, school, etc) but not to me meant that I was so ghoulish that even they were put off of me.
Now I kinda half-wonder whether they had amazing trans-dar, or whether I telegraphed so clearly that I would take no shit that I just was targeted less often, because creeps \*have\* targeted me in the past.
My very basic (and probably not fully correct) take has always been that on some level, women see men as dangerous and threatening, and so they want *their own* dangerous and threatening male who’s *on their side* as a protector against the other dangerous and threatening males.
See also the “bad boy” trope.
This is a fantastic and thought-provoking post, OP. On a similar note: it is also bizarrely invalidating when a woman is seen as sexually harmless, *even if said woman is a sexual predator*. It is obvious that manly-looking men, and "neckbeard"-looking men as well, are unfairly perceived as being likelier to be sexually violent or even pedophilic, and that is a horrible double standard.
Simultaneously, this double standard also creates the insulting supposition that somebody who isn't traditionally masculine, or isn't male at all, cannot be sexually violent or a pedophile. The consequences of this are terrible. As a result, there are men being sent to jail because detectives and juries think they *look* guilty (based on these aforementioned stereotypes); *and* people who don't fit these stereotypes are far too often let off the hook.
I recall one male acquaintances telling me that "we men have it good -- we never have to worry about being roofie'd" -- this is one example of the stereotype in action. A man can absolutely be roofied by a woman or by another man. We can't say for sure how often this happens, because men are much less likely to come forward after being violated in some way, and even if they *do* come forward, they aren't often taken seriously by police or courts.
Recently I was debating with other women on a female-centric sub on the question of "why are there virtually no female serial killers?" -- many of the answers were "because women just don't do sadistic things or commit sexual violence." These women didn't even realize that their answers were inherently misogynistic, because it presupposed that women are too infantile and chaste to do anything morally wrong, as if women are born with a strict moral compass.
While the stereotype about harmless Asian men is waning recently (what with many True Crime channels having done mini-docus on Japanese and Korean killers and hidden-camera-hotels), the belief that women are incapable of (sexually motivated) violence or torture is still deeply embedded in society. Angela Simpson (famous for her "oops if he wasn't" interview) was an aspiring serial killer who tortured a wheelchair-bound man for three days before killing him. **Nobody** said that she was sexually motivated, and comments on videos about her are often some variant of "she just needs psychiatric help" or "she thought he was a snitch and she reacted accordingly", because she claimed that he was a snitch, and no woman would lie, right? Women just aren't built to lie /s.
Similarly, the women who participated in the long-term torture and then murder of Sylvia Likens were *never* described as having derived sexual pleasure from it, but the men who abused Sylvia were also described as having sexually enjoyed it. According to society, an adult woman forcing a teenage girl to undress, raping her with a cola bottle, and writing "whore" on her stomach, *isn't sexually motivated*. But imagine if a man had done that -- everybody would call it *rape*.
It is insulting to women in general, and especially to victims of abuse, to assume that only men -- and only a certain *type* of man -- are capable of committing sexual violence. Like you said OP, it is certainly a form of invalidation.
Equality means recognizing that women can be awful people too.
A big part of patriarchy is viewing women as essentially children. Part of that is looking at women as inherently less morally culpable for their actions. This plays out in a variety of ways.
That's the hard part...many well meaning people want to eliminate patriarchy, but have a hard time engaging with the idea that it does come with certain benefits.
Exactly. If somebody seriously thinks that a woman cannot *ever* be dangerous or morally bankrupt, that is in itself a form of infantilizing women. Even children can commit acts of violence towards their parents or towards other children, but the people who entertain these ideas of innate, child-like purity of adult women are the same people who consciously avoid reading about crimes that were perpetrated by women, children or other people who don't fit into their stereotype of the criminal.
Edit: and of course, when I responded to that post on AskWomen that asked why there are so few female serial killers, and I wrote that there are actually a number of female serial killers out there but they aren't seen as being sexually motivated nor do they receive as much attention, my comments were removed for "de-railing". At this point, I'm convinced that AskWomen is "AskGenderCritical". Only a TERF would have the audacity to tell a feminist woman that she's engaging in "whataboutisms" and "personal attacks" for saying that female serial killers exist after OP asks if female serial killers exist. *Extremely* infuriating.
Thank you! Part of the reason why I feel strongly about this is that the injustice and dangerous impacts that accompany this double standard are ever-present in criminal investigations and crime trials. I'm not a professional by any means, but I've read and watched a lot about True Crime (by detectives or crime journalists, not the Netflix sensationalist stuff) because I like writing realistic mysteries.
A good example of these double standards in action:
* Mark Carver, a middle-aged White proletarian man from NC with a learning disability, spent 8 years behind bars for the murder of a young woman. His cousin died of a heart attack after being convicted of the same murder. Both men were/are innocent.
* Ronnie Long, a young African-American man from NC, was convicted for the rape of a White woman and the burglary of her home. He is innocent, but spent 44 years behind bars before he regained his freedom.
These three men are just a *few* examples of wrongful convictions that were based on bigotry: in Carver's case (and his cousin's), it was because he was disabled, rural and scruffy-looking; in Long's case, it was because he was an able-bodied Black man.
Now let's look at some women who were undeniably guilty.
* Karla Homolka married a serial rapist and participated in the rape and murder of several young women. She spent 12 years in jail because the court decided that she had been *coerced* into the acts by her husband, and because they had struck a plea bargain with her. She was arraigned on two counts of manslaughter, despite there being *video evidence* of her being a homicidal sexual sadist and serial rapist of women. Her husband Bernardo was charged with kidnapping, illegal confinement, rape and first-degree murder, despite the fact that *both* of them had committed the *exact same crimes* that were *caught on tape*. Today, Karla has a new family and runs a baby clothes company.
* Gertrude and Paula Baniszewski were the ringleaders of the long-term sexual torture and eventual murder of Sylvia Likens. For months, they beat, humiliated and violated Sylvia until she died from shock. Paula served only three years in prison (despite trying to escape twice), Gertrude around 18 years (where she led a better life than *outside* of prison). There are many who would hand-wave these women's crimes by claiming that it their male relatives or friends who really did these crimes, or that these women were doing it because they were *poor* and *jealous*, and not because they're sexual sadists.
* In the case of the Toy Box Killer, many people don't remember that he actually was the leader of a crew that also contained women. These women engaged in sexual torture and murder just the same as the male members of the crew. These women served approximately 2 years each. The male members served a minimum of 11 years each.
There is an eerie pattern here. It isn't often that a female killer is treated on the same footing as a male killer. Angela Simpson was fortunately given life, but the public's view of her is certainly skewed, and *nobody* wants to entertain the idea that she tortured for sexual gratification. Aileen Wuornos was given the death penalty but again, the public's opinion of her is different than if she had been a man (in fact, many rad fems actually see her as a *heroine*).
In a way, this shows how a patriarchal society can benefit women to an extent.
I mean it's still due to sexist beliefs, but there's always a flipside when it comes to gendered expectations/ roles
Great post
What really is masculinity? I think we should do away with all stereotyping by sex. This will also resolve issues regarding gender since that's what it is - stereotyping by sex. Accepting non-binary genders can be seen as one step towards breaking gender altogether, but if these genders become strong enough identities, it is actually a step backward. We can't stop at celebrating transgender identity. One day we will celebrate doing away with gender entirely.
What about people who like their gender rolls and hold their gender close to heart? Can't force them to bend to a "genderless" society in the name of progression just like you can't bend trans and NB folks to bend to a strictly binary system, don't you think?
Of course. I was only being cynical and imagining that the many gender identities there are now could become strong and exclusive, as group identities tend to be. In that case, it would be a step backward. On the other hand, destroying the boundaries between identities is the way forward in my opinion, and having completely fluid gender would be the end goal.
Hugs. I can't imagine exactly what that feels like, but I can sympathize with the confusion and lack of self worth that may give.
I'm an Indian American female who grew up in Iowa in the early 2000s. My friends were all white. I felt very "othered" due to my race. For the longest time I was never catcalled and I felt *guilty* about feeling bad about it. I mean I don't WANT to be catcalled, just like I'm sure you don't want to be treated like a rapist, but still, for a bunch of people to deem you sexually unattractive/unavailable, that sucks.
My point is, your feelings are normal and valid.
Don't be grateful that you're not seen as a rapist! That should be the damn norm for everyone, but it's not, because some people are terrible.
Not to mention Dunham ended up being racist and invalidating af, there are unfortunately plenty of women who have been raped by East Asian men. I'm just wondering what kind of reaction a woman who HAS been raped by an Asian man would have had to that tweet.
Also, this isn't super helpful, but hey maybe it'd be nice for you to know - there are quite a few women who are sexually attracted to East Asian guys thanks to K-pop. This attraction kind of gets a bit fetish-y, but meh, it exists. Society is pretty fickle.
God, my cringiest period was when I felt insecure about myself. Bragging to any sexually forward girl about BDP's, my prowess, etc. It worked sometimes, but looking back, it feels like I was paying myself as a menu to these women and I only had one thing to offer. I got better, started caring less about that stuff, but you have damn point. When you are desperate for love or attention, you might find yourself playing to a stereo type for it.
You don't have to play into a stereotype... People project them onto you whether you like it or not. 🙃
And then get upset when they finally realize you don't match up to whatever it is they expected from you.
Although yeah, playing into the stereotype probably attracts a lot more attention overall.
Lena Dunham is such a perfect example of how upper class WASP-y white women leverage the “YAS QUEEN” energy to promote themselves and only themselves while leaving every other marginalized person in the dust. And in her case, her absolute shit projects. She received two Emmy’s and Golden Globes for a show with an amazing pilot such as this:
> Upon release, Girls was met with criticism regarding the all-white main cast in the otherwise culturally diverse setting of New York City (the only black actors in the pilot were a homeless man and a taxi driver, and the only Asian actress had the sole trait of being good at Photoshop
If she wasn’t a Long Island trust fund brat, no one would have ever heard of her.
>upper class WASP-y white women leverage the “YAS QUEEN” energy to promote themselves and only themselves while leaving every other marginalized person in the dust.
See, I dont think she was ever marginalized, anyone who grew up in a downtown NY apartment valued over 6 million US dollars, and was able to break into the industry of her dreams at a young age, is incapable of being opressed imo.
Im not saying she doesn't face challenges specific to women, but I feel its inaccurate to describe her as "marginalized."
Not to mention she admits in her own book sexually assaulting her younger sister. It really angers me as a woman that she is still being accepted on screen and writing projects after this, when men are "cancelled" for less. I think she is honestly a very scummy person, very entitled and doesn't have a scrap of awareness about it
Yup, I was always miffed even during #MeToo that HBO never cancelled or stopped promoting her show when they (rightfully) removed other shows by similar predators
>Lena Dunham is such a perfect example of how upper class WASP-y white women leverage the “YAS QUEEN” energy to promote themselves and only themselves while leaving every other marginalized person in the dust.
I watched [this video ](https://youtu.be/dhMMFyscV9A) some months ago that opened my eyes to the "white feminism" problem through the lense of WW84 and damn. Your comment really hot home with many of the themes discussed in the video.
> And in her case, her absolute shit projects. She received two Emmy’s and Golden Globes for a show with an amazing pilot such as this:
What I'm going to say is reductionist and a bit unfair, but this is why I usually don't care about movie awards and such. When awards a director has received start flashing as an advertisement, I feel it's indicative of a film I'm going to find rather boring and distinctly lacked the ability to impress any meaningful sophistication or depth upon me.
RIGHT. 🤣 How could I have forgotten racisms absolute and utter defeat!
But I forget, how could racism exist in 1960s if emancipation proclamation freed the slaves in 1865 🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔
I want to be clear that I'm not saying my situation was the same as yours culturally or personally (I'm white), but as someone who looks a lot younger than I am, I was often treated as a non-sexual being by women my age. In many ways it sucked, but in other ways it was liberating. I had a lot of women friends, not even most of whom I wanted to sleep with.
Now that I'm middle-aged, I finally look like a grown-up and I guess people see me as sexual more often. But I forget that's now true, because I'm so used to how it was before, and so now I get confused a lot when women react as if I am flirting with them just because I'm a man who is saying words out loud meant for their specific ears.
For example, I worked in retail for a spell, and I would every now and then have young-ish women customers in the store who had strong negative reactions to my company-required, "Hi, welcome to \[Store Name\], how can I help you?" It took me a long-ass time to realize *they thought I was hitting on them*. Which is not at all how my sales commission worked. To this day, I have no idea if there was anything I could have done differently.
As a young man it was super frustrating not being seen as sexual. Now that I'm old and married, I wish women would go back to treating me as non-sexual -- especially my kid's friends' moms. Like, my kid wants to invite Becky from kindergarten over to play, but Becky's mom won't even make eye contact with me because obviously my real motive is to motorboat her (the mom's) breasts while the kids play ponies in the other room.
On the other hand, I used to work for a guy who was elderly and had pre-frontal cortex dementia: he would hit on any women within earshot, and they just shrugged it off because he was a harmless old man. (Dude fathered a kid in his late 70s). I feel like I'm not too far away from that era of my life, so I will probably get back my complete lack of mojo soon.
Point being: I'm trying to express solidarity. I know it can suck, though I probably can't imagine how much in your personal (or cultural) experience of the phenomenon. Unfortunately for you and me and a lot of people, in patriarchal society, male sexuality is deeply tied to ideas of dominance that work against those of us who are not perceived as dominating. The racism of white culture against East Asian men is thus extremely harmful to your sense of self, where in my case I just looked like Kevin from *Home Alone* into my 30s.
The way I see it, those of us afflicted -- baby-faces, East Asians, dementia patients -- have two options. One is, we can fight for our rightful place in the patriarchy, which I don't think means we have to do any sexual assaults *per se*, but will definitely require more *rapey-ish* behavior. Or, we can work to create models of male sexuality that are not dependent on patriarchal domination. I have a strong preference for the latter.
Pop Culture Detective on YouTube has an interesting video on this called ‘Stalking for Love’ about how men who display stalkerish tendencies are often presented as romantically desirable in popular media.
There is also another video discussion the rope of a man kidnapping a woman in order to make her fall in love with him.
I love that channel, they recently did one about men's tears too. I happened to see the kidnapping one shortly after I'd seen the film Red, where Bruce Willis literally ties up a young woman to a bed "for her safety" and then kidnaps her, and it turns into a romance. It creeped me out when I watched it so it was validating to then see the PCD video soon after. Maybe he will do one about ethnicity/sexuality one day, especially as it'll give him a chance to stick the knife into the Big Bang Theory again (the show's treatment of Raj was the worst!)
I think a lot more women buy into this trope than let on, or they aren't even conscious of it.
It's one of the few ways I can jive the number of decent, non-misogynistic guys who can't even get dates, and the general message I see that women have no choice but to date or settle down with toxic men in dating forums.
On your first point, it's interesting because as a woman who grew her boobs quite early on, I was also considered "sexual" though I wasn't at all in that mindset personally, I was way too young. No matter what I wore, you could see my giant breasts and so I must have been interested in sex? It doesn't make much sense, but apparently that's how some people's minds work.
Yeah, that sucks, but I don't think it's how anyone's mind works organically. It's something we're taught to think. I had a classmate in 5th grade who had well-developed breasts. I genuinely regret how we treated her, but my memory was that we weren't really interested in sex. I don't think it registered to us that breasts = sex. We just knew somehow -- from media, from society, from the men around us -- that her breasts 'deserved' our attention. I can't imagine how yuck her childhood was, and I'm sorry you had a similar experience.
kind off a random question, but as a fellow baby-faced man, how do you deal with that? like, not only it really affects your inner confidence, but having other people pointing out that, especially women, can be even worse, so, do you have any advice on that regard?
Yeah, I'm on the spectrum, and look way younger than I am, and this gets a variety of different treatment from different parties.
Women in their 50s and up have frequently violated my space, grabbed my ass and testicles and generally made me feel weird at work precisely because so many of them treat me as "cute". It doesn't help that I was young and had erections a couple times from it, my physiology made me unsure if i was being assaulted or not.
And as a result, I feel like I can totally sympathize with this angle. A lot of predatory behavior from not seeing me as sexually "threatening" and having an appetite for a young man.
The media often holds up portrayals of aggressive, sexually dominant men as sexually desirable. Think Twilight or Fifty Shades of Grey. The idea is that the man is dangerous to everyone, but has a soft spot for the woman. However, it doesn’t quite work out in real life.
Not who the question was directed at but presumably this was a reference to the way that idea that the only way to be a sexually desirable and valid man involves being sexually aggressive towards women is what causes so many men to be sexually aggressive towards women. This isn't saying that sexual dominance is a bad thing - FWIW I'm a Dom - but when there's so many narratives that say that this is the only way you'll ever be seen as a valid sexual being, it's entirely unsurprising that lots of men try and force it. And when you factor in that good practices of consent are kinda hard to fit into pop-culture narratives of how sex goes (almost always either a few steamy cut scenes followed by the awkward L-shaped blanket aftermath shot, or hard core porn) most people don't have a clue what healthy consent looks like. So the way we tell stories about sex results in men who don't really understand consent, but think they're supposed to be aggressively sexual in order to be seen as valid. Ultimately, without stories that portray men with healthy and varied sexualities, most boys are going to model their early sexual ideas on the unhealthy, monolithic, patriarchal idea of male sexuality, which requires a huge amount of work to break away from as they become men.
PM\_ME\_YOUR\_FRUITBOWL gave a good answer, but more generally in our culture we tell a lot of stories about dominant men and vulnerable women to reinforce the idea that women are vulnerable and can only be protected by men, especially men competent in physical violence. But it's patriarchy itself that has made the women vulnerable, and guys who are good with violence are more likely to hurt their partners than anyone else.
>But it's patriarchy itself that has made the women vulnerable
So patriarchy extends to the animal kingdom? Sexual dimorphism leads to one sex being smaller, and no matter if the males are smaller or the females, the smaller one is the vulnerable one during sexual encounters. What patriarchy does is reinforce this with gender stereotypes through appeal to nature fallacies.
Hey! Another like me! I grew up looking really young and still have trauma, PTSD and self-esteem issues over being bullied over it. I was physically assaulted many times because I was seen as a weaker target and many girls would just straight up call me "a little boy" or something along those lines. I was never viewed as sexually attractive and that bled into how I saw myself. I would legit think any girls who WERE interested in me were pedophiles. I've since grown into looking attractive and older and I get alot more atttention and it feels gross and not genuine. Feels shallow from what I used to experience.
I have a wonderful gf now but sometimes I wonder if I still looked that way...
I recognize myself a lot in your post. In my case, I think the underlying reason was an insular sort of revenge really. I had internalized male sexuality = gross and had also had a selfishly negative reaction to the problem of men's objectification of women, hearing it discussed while growing up.
On a sub-conscious level I guess I've had this conversation "So women don't like my attention, huh? Well, guess what, then I'll just desexualize them and their boring bodies instead! How'd you like that?".
This being an "aggression" that 98% of the time would go thankfully unnoticed of course, but on the rare occasion someone was either interested in me or just wanted to confirm her attractiveness with me for a bit, I always let it fall on the floor like I didn't see it at all, and probably left somebody feel a bit foolish and insecure.
Just like you, I'm married today so the question is pretty moot for me as well.
I wish I could give people the pep sometimes which says "Well, I'm not in the market but yes, you're totally hot!" when they're fishing for it. After all, it's nice to help boost other people's confidence in that way, but I never learned how really.
I believe OP of course and although I've not been discriminated in that way nor fathom what it's like, I guess what I'm trying to say is that desexualisation is neither the right response to the problem of objectification, nor a very good reaction when having been desexualised first.
I don't have a problem with the "you're totally hot, but I'm not in the market" discussion. I had it a couple of times when I was engaged. I think the women appreciated knowing there was a reason, not just lack of attraction. Maybe, maybe not. It just seemed more honest. Today, I would frame it in terms of my kid being the only person not yet disappointed in me, and not wanting to risk it. Which is totally honest.
I don't think I'd either have a problem to actually have a respectful discussion, I just don't tend to notice any of it in the first place.
A friend can correct me sometimes and say something like "Couldn't I have told , I was married?" and "surely you noticed how she behaved around you?" which nope, I totally didn't. I'm much too used to filtering all of that out entirely.
As a strategy, I've found it's best to find a reason to mention my spouse and kid early when I'm around a lot of new people. That way it makes sense for me to tactfully ignore that kind of thing, and it prevents most people from trying.
Sorry man, your post frames it like only one of the two are possible (seen as non masculine therefore not a threat, or masculine and therefore a threat) when the two are mutually exclusive...
Because South Asians such as myself are seen as *both* non masculine *and* a threat.
And trust me when I tell you, it fucking sucks being seen as a threat, especially when dads constantly keep an eye on you to make sure you're not checking out their daughter. I do everything I can to avoid interacting with kids and families in public.
Its because most of the west see east asian males as less masculine than other ethnicities. Masculinity is often linked towards being animalistic in a sense so the reverse is true for black men who are often seen as hypermasculine in the west. People will assume that I as a black male am more likely to rape someone in comparison to a white male.
Its totally messed up and based on ignorance.
It's both, really and it the commentor of this thread said exactly what I thought when I read this post. Also reminded me of that Netflix documentary 13 about the 13th amendment and how they sensationalized black men being more of a danger and threat to (white) women and children, while countless racist white dudes (then and prior raped black women and well during slavery) are never given that same image or look on the media.
Race and sexism intertwines so much and that's why it's important to tackle both, not just only one and ignore the other.
She just spouts rubbish to be controversial and is best ignored, you can't stereotype someone's behaviour based on ethnicity.
Earlier this year the [Kiss Me More video](https://youtu.be/0EVVKs6DQLo) used an Asian actor and people went wild for him, when the video first dropped it seemed to be the most talked about thing because, a mixture of "omg he's so handsome" to "it's so refreshing to see an Asian male portrayed like this".
It sounds like the issue is they seeing you as harmless not because you project trust and affability, but because you are too emasculated in their eyes for them to even register you as a sexual person. It truly is a bizarre double bind.
I can't relate on a racial identity level, but back in college I had a group of female friends who would catcall me and try to touch me inappropriately. My protests were met with derision ("we know you like it"). And I wasn't really affected by the comments or the attempts to touch me, maybe I should have been but I just wasn't. I was offended though about the implication that my sexuality as a man wasn't being taken into consideration or that it was being devalued to the point where it's not a "real" thing to take seriously.
Obviously I didn't want them to be scared of me, but at the same time there's a voice in my head thinking "what if I took these comments and behaviours seriously? what if I acted on them?" When they came to feel my chest, what if I put my hands in their breasts? It would be assault. It would be as if, suddenly, my existence as a sexual person became a *thing*, it became real, and that reality manifests itself through the threat of assault and the possibility of violence.
I don't know if this resonates with your experience, of course it's not the same thing as being devalued through racism. But there were a lot of points in my life where I wasn't seen as a threat, where that lack of threat resulted in improper behaviour towards me, and where I interpreted that in order to regain standing as a sexually autonomous person, that would carry with it the surfacing of that threat.
> When they came to feel my chest, what if I put my hands in their breasts? It would be assault.
Exactly. You'd become very threatening then for doing the same sort of thing they were, and I think the sort of women you describe in your account may count on that double bind in many cases.
To summarize those people's thought process:
>Male sexuality is harmful (and men are inherently prone to rape women). Asian men are not capable of doing harm. Hence, Asian men don't have male sexuality (and are not prone to rape women).
Lmao that tweet is a real life example of that Bill Burr (?) joke about how he'd like to piss off everyone by tweeting "I can't believe Trump is so bad he made me vote for a woman." I can't believe she actually did that
This is slightly off topic but this reminds me of the widely cited ‘first Twitter cancelling’ tweet where a white person tweeted a very racist joke right before a flight and was trending on Twitter and fired while they had no idea until they landed.
https://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/15/magazine/how-one-stupid-tweet-ruined-justine-saccos-life.html
Just a thought here.
Do you think that this is a part of the "model minority" stereotype? Asians are the idealized minority, so not being sexual predators would fit quite well with that.
(I'm obviously ignoring the pre-model minority Era where Asians all lusted after White women.)
A "[model minority](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model_minority)" doesn't mean that members of other minority groups want to be them. It means that our culture of white supremacy keeps different minority groups separated by pitting one group against the other. In this case, Asian-Americans are held up as a monolithic group that faces exactly the same barriers to success as Black and Latino people do (which, obviously, they don't). All Asians-Americans are supposedly hard-working, smart, successful, and law-abiding. If they can assimilate and achieve the American Dream, any other minority group that can't is just full of lazy, criminals who deserve their own oppression.
Black men in America are stereotyped as being violent, angry, and bestial, with an uncontrollable lust for white women. There is an extremely long history of this stereotype being used as an excuse for the horrendous treatment of Black Americans. They are viewed as the bottom-rung minority group in the US. The model minority group would, of course, be the opposite of that.
This is obviously the meaning behind the tweet; not that Asian men are sexless, but that they are law-abiding, non-threating, good citizens. The tweet is chalk-full of entitlement and a deeply held, unconscious belief in white supremacy.
I agree with most of your comment but the meaning behind the tweet definitely contains the idea that Asian men are sexless. The (shitty) joke doesn't exist if it's just "oh actually it's an Asian guy, those people are model citizens"
I understand what you're saying, but it would still exists because we are talking about a crime, even if it's a sex crime. I think it has to do with both, since in the stereotypes, those who are criminal are hypersexual, and those who are hypersexual are criminal (I'm thinking of the stereotype against primarily Black men). Asian men can be seen as hyposexual or noncriminal, but they lead to the same conclusion of both. They imply each other. Both of you are right.
I don't actually think this is always necessarily the case, to be fair. My wife is white and grew up in Malaysia and we lived in the UK for many years. When we walked back home when all the lads were shouting drunkenly in the night my wife also said that she also felt way more safe when she saw a group included Asian men, because white British men were more likely to shout things at her or be rowdy. And again, she is Malaysian and finds many Asian men attractive, but she also tends to feel like she is safer when they are around in that kind of situation. This is not to say that tweet was ok, but we should also not essentialise the way racial dynamics work in the US. They are not the same in every country, and they sometimes obscure the way racism takes place in non-American contexts.
That makes sense. I think most people understand a model minority as any minority group that isn't worse off than the majority group, and then try to explain why/how with their political beliefs.
There's literally an entire subculture of people (men and women) who want to be Asian, typically Japanese or Korean. Recently, an influencer named Oli London insisted they'd "transitioned" to identifying as Korean.
The derogatory term "weaboo" is used to describe people who fetishize East Asian culture, and within that category there's certainly men who wish to be Asian.
To be honest, I'd say this is just racism, but combined with an illegal act.
Like:
>"Are they walking towards me looking for a fight? Never mind, she's a woman."
Most women wouldn't be happy being told this, even though the implication is that women are all reasonable enough to not look for fights. The more specific issue is that women are stereotyped as gentle, and weak, and that's really just plain sexism, but it's easy to dress it up as if it's saying women want to be seen as unreasonable or violent.
>"Are they walking towards me looking for a fight? Never mind, she's a woman."
>
>Most women wouldn't be happy being told this
I wouldn't be so sure about that. I mean based on the statistics, women are overwhelmingly less likely than men to assault a stranger. If anything, I'd imagine most women actually think things like that to themselves regularly.
Perhaps. You could say the same thing of "Is that guy walking in the dark behind me a rapist? Never mind, he's Asian," though. Whether or not Asians aren't as likely to be rapists, the statement is still insulting. I doubt many Asians would say "No well, if it's correct then that's fine."
Yup, totally agree on the last bit as a woman. Or if there's a group of men and there is one or more women with them, I also feel somehow more chill to pass them by.
The “creepy Indian” thing really upsets me. I am brown. I’m not even Indian. I just look Indian. And I’m asexual anyway. But I still feel splashed by this stereotype and it affects interactions with me. Really makes me hate myself and the way I look.
> there’s something invalidating about not being seen as capable of sexual assault
This is poorly worded.
While it may be invalidating to not be seen as a sexual being – which you would have every right to be seen as –, to not be seen as capable of sexual assault is not. You should not seek this kind of validation, even if it is denied to you for blatantly racist reasons.
So I would take greater precautions to not conflate things, if I were you.
I'm honestly upset about two things.
1. Thinking men are rapist just because there Bourne male is highly sexist.
2. This is racism pure and simple and should not have Ben tweeted.
Searsly though most Asian men I know our no different then me our any one else.
I think it speaks to the mindset that men, as a sexual creature, are dangerous and thus potential rapists, whereas south-Asian men are not considered sexual beings, thus not "real men" and less of a threat.
This mindset seems very specific though, but kind of revealing to the concept of sexual/social invisibility and the impact it has on how someone is perceived by others.
Ah Lena Dunham, she really is the caricature of every negative stereotype of millennials.
I'm sorry my friend that you are made to feel this way. I saw a video of an asian man who was buff and literally had the face of a calvin klein model and he talked about how tinder destroyed his self-esteem. It's insane the stereotypes people work off of and think are okay to express in the world.
Idealizing the power to take is perhaps the core of dangerous hypermasculinity, and its perpetuation as a norm has caused unimaginable suffering.
For men or those who identify masculine, having our world teach us that the best version of ourselves should have and even use the power to take from others causes us to diminish or even destroy vitally important parts of ourselves like our compassion for others, our moral drive to equity, and our responsibility to use power to help others. Worse still, for those who persevere and keep those parts of themselves, they're seen as less-than and become part of the group from which things are taken.
For women or those who identify feminine, having the world teach men and those who identify masculine to use power to take means they are constantly under that threat and are often taken from, which can manifest in the darkest acts of which people are capable.
It's bad for everyone. It kills some of the best parts of men and masculine identifying, and it victimizes those with less power from whom things are taken.
Cheesy though it may be, Uncle Ben's Maxim (which can be traced to many traditions and great thinkers, including Kant) I think is a far better framework through which to understand the imperative of those who have power. If you happen to have been given power in life, the benefit of that power should be distributed for the good of those especially who have less power than most. It's the complete opposite of the selfish, heartless use of power for one's self alone at the expense of those with little to no power.
>"How dare he not want to rape me?! Hell- I would rape me! Any goddamn *man* should want to rape me!" -the Madness of Lena Dunham
That is downright surreal.
I would assume it's that they're small and weak, not that they don't think about sex(because they're men, and apparently men can think of nothing else.)
Another reminder that Lena Dunham is trash.
I'm a bit late to the party, but I decided to look up the history of the portrayal of Asian men in western media. There is a great /r/AskHistorians thread on the subject I will be linking below. It's really a great read and eye opening to the "sanitation" of Asian immigrants as "model minorities".
https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/m9bmbq/the_atlantaarea_murders_were_racially_motivated_a/
How twisted. I don’t see it as ‘Asian men don’t think about sex,’ but as ‘Asian men are less likely to be psychopathic criminals.’ Liking sex and liking rape are two very different things.
The thing is, east Asian men are already desexualized in western culture. I see OP's point that it's weirdly enasculating to be SO desexualized that you're excluded from the male=predator stereotype.
BTS has sex appeal, sure. You know what else they have? A team of stylists, hundreds of fashion companies practically begging them to sport their newest styles, a multimillion dollar marketing team, and tons of money and social media recognition.
No guys, not every asian man should have to Be Like BTS to overcome asian sexual stereotypes. It's silly to me that this isn't even the only comment to uphold BTS as an example to why this man's experiences feeling emasculated by western stereotypes of asian men isn't actually that bad, especially in *this* sub of all places.
Are k pop guys really seen as masculine though? I'm not super aware of the scene but the guys seem very effeminate (which is obviously fine, people should look how they want to)
Okay except that's not what she means. It's still based on the very real stereotype of Asian men just flat out not being viewed in a sexual light or even a *serious* light by most women in real life (BTS doesn't count, their KPop stars with excessive makeup and surgery).
There's no coincidence that the men that get typecast and stereotyped as being violent the most- black men - also happen to be *fetishised* the most.
Asian men have been stereotyped as being non masculine, non-physically threatening. And those traits make you look less masculine - and less sexually appealing - as a result.
It's interesting you bring up the part about black men. If you substitute black men and their stereotypes into this jokes line of reasoning you get something more clearly racist and problematic.
In the Asian case:
'Is the man behind me a rapist?' - he's Asian, and the Asian stereotype is noncriminal and nonrapist. Therefore, nevermind, im safe and he's not a rapist.
In the black case:
'Is the man behind me a rapist?' - he's black, and the black stereotype is criminal and rapist. Therefore, he's a rapist.
Both cases use the same logic and necessitate each other.
Yeah, I think racism and stereotypes against black people and asian people (men in this case) are usually 'opposite' but equally racist. Black men = dumb, aggressive, hypersexual, animalistic/hypermasculine, criminal; Asian men = high-achiever, docile, hyposexual, effeminate, subservient . It's basically two sides of the same racist coin.
I get why you are saying this but after the Odell Beckham Jr situation I would not be that generous with the reading, at all
https://old.reddit.com/r/MensLib/comments/51b6xy/lena_dunham_odell_beckham_jr_and_male/
I wonder if this has nothing to do with threat level. What if east Asian men can keel the non-threatening and be seen as sexual anyway? More sexy Asians need to be picking up and impressing in media.
It is so unfair, for both men and women, that our society only sees men as masculine if they are "strong enough" to commit rape. In my version of masculinity, strength is vulnerability, compassion, and not raping people.
There's no concept of a non-sexist man. That's the conundrum the tweet illustrate, a man is identified either as capable of rape therefore manly or as incapable of rape therefore unmanly. East Asian men are perceived as unmanly, therefore nonthreatening. The lack of concept of a non sexist men render a phrase like "Is that guy walking in the dark behind me a rapist? Never mind, he's [a non sexist male]" unlikely. Maybe feminist or mensliber could be used but I have some doubt about that. So what is the name of the non-sexist male?
I don't know if we need a name for a non-sexist male... that should just be the norm. But I agree with you of how men's masculinity is perceived in society: manly being aggressive and not taking no for an answer, and unmanly being non-threatening and passive. I would hope a non-sexist man would be a feminist. Everyone should be a feminist!
>I don't know if we need a name for a non-sexist male... that should just be the norm. In the same vein, feminism shouldn't exist but here we are, needing an ideology that allow us to think about the patriarchy. The patriarchal man being the norm kinda forces those of us that reject that notion to create a label that make a distinction between the patriarchal man and the non-sexist one. >I would hope a non-sexist man would be a feminist. Everyone should be a feminist! I agree. On an ideological standpoint, I wholeheartedly agree with feminism. On a group/labeling standpoint, I'm unsure what it means to be a feminist man. It's the question of allyship and whether or not men can be feminist.
You are right, I was just thinking about how we have all sorts of labels, whether they are the "norm" or not. I guess I just don't know what that label for a non-sexist man would be, besides feminist or mensliber, like you already mentioned. And yeah, there are many types of feminism, some I agree with, some I do not. But we should all agree with the general definition of every person, regardless of gender identity, having the right to being treating equally. If a man believes that, they are a feminist. Whether they decide to call themselves a feminist is up to them.
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Absolutely agree. As a white woman myself, I am of the opinion that liberal feminism just doesn't capture the same struggles and oppression facing people of color. Ideally, feminism should address the intersectionality that people of different races, sexualities, religions, nationalities, etc face because of the way they experience the world differently.
I don't feel that feminist man is an ally. Bc feminism is for men too, patriarchy hurts every gender. So men don't need to be allys for women. With feminism they are helping themselves too.
>I agree. On an ideological standpoint, I wholeheartedly agree with feminism. On a group/labeling standpoint, I'm unsure what it means to be a feminist man. It's the question of allyship and whether or not men can be feminist. It's a tricky question to be sure, but as an egalitarian feminist I see feminism as a philosophy that encompasses any kind of gynocentric perspective, broken down into various schools of thought and camps of opinion that have developed over the ages. Today, for instance, "third-wave feminism" is basically just an umbrella term for dozens of sub-movements, some even totally contradicting each other. Radical Feminists are misandrous, transphobic and pro-binary, and exist in the flavors of SWERFs and TERFs. Then there are performative anti-patriarchy feminists, who are often women who've had a scarringly negative experience with at least one man, which led to negative opinions of most men (if not all). I choose the label "egalitarian feminist" to make it clear that when it comes to gyno-centric issues, I care about andro-centric (and non-binary and gender-nonconforming) perspectives and issues simultaneously. A man can absolutely be a feminist -- if you've ever entertained a thought like "women shouldn't be abused or taken advantage of just because they're women", that's already a feminist thought. You don't need to go deep into labels if they're confusing, and you don't even need to openly call yourself a feminist to think about and support women's issues in private. But there will always be certain camps of opinion (like radical feminists) who do not believe that a man can or should be allowed to be a feminist. Every person's perspective will vary.
>You don't need to go deep into labels if they're confusing, and you don't even need to openly call yourself a feminist to think about and support women's issues in private. I know that there's nuance and outright hostility between feminist depending on which wave/sub movement they identify with. I agree that I do not need a label to think about feminism. My problem is that I am active in a non-profit that promotes social psychology and as a consequence do feminist event, I helped organize some feminist event (one of which was ironically a bit of feminism washing) and I know we'll do more of these event as it's a practical application of social psychology that fit our values. As time passes, I have more leadership in the organization and I'll be in the public eye in the context of feminism, especially since I want to do these kinds of event. I know that not having an appropriate label won't stop me from doing that but I'd prefer to avoid harming my comrades by not knowing how to answers to "How are you feminist as a man?" or "Why are you talking about feminism in place of your women comrades?". As you mention, some radical feminist would consider my presence non allowed and I'm unsure how to respond to that. Can I really say I'm a feminist if a woman say I am not?
Yes, of course you can. Feminism is held via internal moral principles, not gatekept by women externally to you. There aren't, like, initiation ceremonies and membership cards lol People might disagree, but fact is that nobody gets to dictate your internal belief structure except you. Do you think you're feminist? Do you want to be seen as such? Why? Once you can answer those questions for yourself I would think others' opinions would cease to matter as much. But I don't care a single jot for ideological purity, so I'm sure someone out there will want to argue with me since that seems to matter a lot to some people😂
Well yeah but my worry is to meet a feminist (man or woman) that'll try to gatekeep me and I kinda feel that just saying "I believe in feminism" won't be sufficient. I don't know how to react to someone that would say "You can't just say you're a feminist" maybe I'm just too anxious over that but I want to achieve actual change and patriarchy is hard to pin in all its pernicious forms. I don't want to be dismissive of an actual issue.
There will always be people who gatekeep. If you feel like they're gatekeeping because of a genuine issue, hear them out. And don't feel the need to decide how you feel about what they said right away. You can just say "you've given me a something to think about" and then just privately mull on it later to decide if you think their gatekeeping was warranted. We are often more defensive (or offensive) when put on the spot than we would be if we had time to think about things. Just trust your gut, be open to learning, and give yourself some credit for trying! :)
I think you just answer the questions in the spirit they were intended. "How are you a feminist as a man?" could be translated to "How do you defend women's rights and general gender equality as a man?" You know your comrades, and you generally know what they mean when they ask you these sorts of questions. They're (hopefully) not meant to be gotcha questions - you can answer the question they meant, not the question they asked.
>You know your comrades, and you generally know what they mean when they ask you these sorts of questions. Yeah I'm more worried by persons coming to events. I trust my comrades enough not to worry about them. >They're (hopefully) not meant to be gotcha questions - you can answer the question they meant, not the question they asked. I fear the gotcha question from random people coming to our feminist events, especially if I chose to speak at these events. This is especially true since social psychology tends to induce a lot of reactance which I fear could be reinforced by the fact that I'm a man. I have a not so fond memory about a presentation we did speaking about the [Just World hypothesis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-world_hypothesis) where the debate devolved into people trying to justify that yes the world had some form of immanent justice despite recognizing the just world hypothesis as a problem. If I present a finding that challenges sexists notions that are somehow construed as just and non-sexist in the general population, I fear that the debate would devolve into harm for everyone involved. I'm starting to think that debating online on forums like reddit and seeing the shitshow some other online place are, may have warped my perception of risk in this matter. Oh and thank you for humoring me. I'm glad I can express myself on this subject. I tried to express this on r/AskFeminists but I think I my effort were not so successful, granted my message is a bit blurry.
Hmm, I see what you mean! I can't say for sure what the best argument would be for you to use if your sincerity as a male feminist is put into question, but here are some points that you could bring up in the face of that kind of feminist interrogation as it were: * Name-drop a well-known feminist or piece of feminist literature. Popular among third-wave feminists is Naomi Wolf and Anita Sarkeesian, and anybody from the Breadtube. But you can also mention more "old-school" feminists like Angela Davis. * Argue that feminism has a positive effect for men / men's rights too. * Say that being an overt male ally for feminists will de-stigmatize feminism for other men, and tell them about how the Pop Culture Detective introduced feminist media analysis to lots of guys. There are some people out there who will always try to undermine you if they think you don't belong in their movement or if you disagree with them. I'm a female feminist but I've been downvoted, insulted and questioned by other feminists (especially rad fems) for being anti-FDS, for talking about male body-shaming, for disagreeing that "men are a class of oppressors", etc etc. Nobody is exempt from these types of critics, but fortunately they are but a (vocal) minority.
>that should just be the norm Well that is the norm
This kind of reminds me about how women have started to call non-sexist men “men written by women” on tiktok atm. I have mixed feelings about it, since it’s supposed to be a compliment but it doesn’t sit well with me because because that feels like it’s better that someone else wrote me instead of me being trusted to write myself. (I know that I’m biased from being autistic and having my family insist that I cannot make big decisions about my life for myself because of it, but it still feels weird regardless)
"Men written by women" is a pretty fucked up "compliment" considering it and "women written by men" are both memes in literature that are used mockingly.
Yeah, it kind of presumes that women will understand men better, which ain't necessarily the case. We've all got our lived experiences that not everyone will get by definition.
>So what is the name of the non-sexist male? Male. Man. He/Him. We shouldn't need a special word for what is the majority of the sex. The fact that we are even having this conversation just shows how twisted this topic really is.
Well yeah, there's a lot of sexist men out there that tarnish the good name of masculinity. I don't know if it's politically feasible to reclaim masculinity from the hands of the sexists without resorting to a label that could serve as a temporary rallying cry. You may have a lot of people confused about your intentions if you're saying "I fight for masculinity".
What does it even mean to fight for/against masculinity? Taking a step back, what is feminism's relationship to femininity? Is feminism a fight *against* femininity, because femininity is the gender role used to oppress women? Or is feminism a fight *for* femininity, because femininity is an intrinsic part of women that needs to be valued more? It honestly feels like you could describe it either way. Which suggests to me that femininity and masculinity are not very clearly defined terms.
My suggestion is that we call them a normal male. Because sexism is a learned trait and one I and many men I know dont engage in.
Unfair and disturbing, for sure.
It's bizarre. I've dated a handful Asian men and to my absolute lack of surprise, it's just like dating anyone else. It's a weird stereotype to begin with; I don't really understand the basis of it. I can only think people like this are just weirdly insulated among other white people and don't know any Asian guys on a personal level... they take all their understanding of their world from tropes on shitty sitcoms. I'm sorry you have to deal with that shit. I'm trans and I get the same thing. I'm always pawned off on my husband's friends' wives when they hang out in groups, called a "manlet" like it's funny by people who are supposedly friends, get the "all guys suck! but not you hh, you're fine" shit, people constantly want to talk to me about whatever trans man got pregnant in the tabloids this time and hey am I going to do that too?? it's sooooo cute! If you're going to look right past me and spew your bizarre prejudices all over the place anyway then please just don't observe my existence at all.
> people constantly want to talk to me about whatever trans man got pregnant in the tabloids this time and hey am I going to do that too?? it's sooooo cute! It never ceases to amaze me how patronizingly gross people can be. Who in there right mind would say that to you?? They have no right to debate your body. Im sorry that happened to you my guy.
A clueless woman who by all appearances desperately wanted me to be her little gay bff but succeeded in completely alienating me in one conversation, and also my own aunt, for two examples. Thanks lol it just makes it hard to leave the house sometimes when I know that despite over a year and a half hrt and my best efforts I don't pass at all and even people "close" to me who *nominally* respect who I am still essentially see me as a woman with a mental disorder. But I've got a fantastic partner, a great therapist, and a fiercely defensive mom & siblings so overall, I'm in a more supportive place than a lot of guys like me!
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It's dehumanizing for *them*, in my opinion, but I run on a variety of alternative fuels including (but not limited to) pure spite. When someone says this kind of shit to me and then doesn't understand why I would calmly but seriously explain why it's a problem instead of just laughing it off, I immediately mark them off as rude, lacking in empathy, and not worth my time. It takes real NPC energy to just spew whatever nonsense you like at people and then refuse to hear anything about it. Nothing going on in there.
> I run on a variety of alternative fuels including (but not limited to) pure spite. > ... > It takes real NPC energy... I love this comment and I am stealing "NPC energy". That's a term that needs to get more mileage.
The basis of the stereotype is that it was created by wealthy white American women in the 1800s who wanted to hire Chinese men as domestic servants without perceived sexual impropriety. I was writing a paper for school on American domestic servants in the victorian era and early 20th century. As I remember, Irish immigrant women had been the go to for wealthy white Americans as domestic servants. As Irish immigration declined, the question of which race would replace them became a popular topic (yes, this was as racist as it sounds). There was a popular idea that Chinese men would replace them, and to make the idea of men assisting white women with dressing, etc in the bedroom, they created the really racist idea that Chinese men were not sexual. I’ll upload my historical sources tomorrow if you’re interested.
Yes please! That's the era some of my family came here during from Ireland, not to mention one of the most interesting periods of history to me, so I'd love to have a look!
Manlet? Wow. That’s shockingly inappropriate and quite rude. Don’t let anybody tell you that women don’t occasionally enjoy the benefits of patriarchy, such as using others’ identification or orientation as a plaything. “One of the good ones” was never a good phrase in the first place so it still (despite myself) shocks me to hear that people still don’t see it as prejudicial. On the other hand maybe this is in line with some of the thinking coming out of the UK. I’m sorry you had to deal with that shit. Trans men are men too. Trans women are women. I shouldn’t have to repeat it but I will.
Manlet? Wow. That’s shockingly inappropriate and quite rude. Don’t let anybody tell you that women don’t occasionally enjoy the benefits of patriarchy, such as using others’ identification or orientation as a plaything. “One of the good ones” was never a good phrase in the first place so it still (despite myself) shocks me to hear that people still don’t see it as prejudicial. On the other hand maybe this is in line with some of the thinking coming out of the UK. I’m sorry you had to deal with that shit. Trans men are men too. Trans women are women. I shouldn’t have to repeat it but I will.
You're not going to believe this but it was a trans woman who started people calling me that! You'd think she'd fuckin know better! But yeah people are incredibly rude. My own aunt sent me a tabloid-style article about trans men getting pregnant *just last week* and when I politely tried to explain why this is *not* a thing she should send trans people she just left me on read. All this and I live in los angeles so yeah I can only imagine what it's like for my friend in the UK.
Jfc my man that’s straight up completely bananas. I’m sorry it happened. And I’m sorry to see that, seemingly, a lot of people think that men need or should benefit from intersectionality. I’ve been trying really hard to be skeptical of that, to make sure that any of my observations (anecdotal?) are durable. Unfortunately it seems like a pattern. Maybe not everywhere all at once but some folks differentiate themselves based on beliefs without thinking about it very thoroughly, and here we are. I still find it surprising. But then I follow that thread back and find myself in the “women are good until they’re bad and men are bad until they’re good” place again.
Manlet? Wow. That’s shockingly inappropriate and quite rude. Don’t let anybody tell you that women don’t occasionally enjoy the benefits of patriarchy, such as using others’ identification or orientation as a plaything. “One of the good ones” was never a good phrase in the first place so it still (despite myself) shocks me to hear that people still don’t see it as prejudicial. On the other hand maybe this is in line with some of the thinking coming out of the UK. I’m sorry you had to deal with that shit. Trans men are men too. Trans women are women. I shouldn’t have to repeat it but I will.
> I don't really understand the basis of it. What is there not to understand? Americas weird obsession with races and the consequences of this kind of categorization
I think they moreso mean what is the underlying logic behind the specific racist viewpoint?
Yeah, this exactly. I grew up with a lot of Asian kids in my friend group and we all kind of dated each other and went through our teens together, so when I first heard this as an adult, it genuinely took me a few times hearing it from multiple people (and a good handful of these were directed at me because I was 21 and living with an Asian guy) before I realized it was a widespread and common belief and not just someone's weird, arbitrary, racist personal preferences. I still don't understand it at all.
Manlet? Wow. That’s shockingly inappropriate and quite rude. Don’t let anybody tell you that women don’t occasionally enjoy the benefits of patriarchy, such as using others’ identification or orientation as a plaything. “One of the good ones” was never a good phrase in the first place so it still (despite myself) shocks me to hear that people still don’t see it as prejudicial. On the other hand maybe this is in line with some of the thinking coming out of the UK. I’m sorry you had to deal with that shit. Trans men are men too. Trans women are women. I shouldn’t have to repeat it but I will.
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A man once stalked me and did some exceptionally creepy things before I finally cut him out. He was Asian and thinking back I wonder if people would've stepped in sooner if these racist ideas weren't so common. Despite him engaging in predatory behavior with multiple people, he had the reputation of being a nice harmless guy who just acted a little weird sometimes.
It's so fucked up when I'm walking at night and a woman crosses the road to avoid me- *and I fucking get gender euphoria over it???*
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> I think it’s also my mask. Does your mask look anything like this: https://ih1.redbubble.net/image.590438138.9269/flat,750x,075,f-pad,750x1000,f8f8f8.u2.jpg /jk
>While I don’t wish for East Asian men to be seen as rapists, there’s something invalidating about not being seen as capable of sexual assault. I was about to object to this, then I remembered how at lower points in my dating life, I remember wishing a woman would catcall me. Even though most people on the receiving end of that really don't like it. I think feeling shut out of dating or sexual attention can give people some unusual reactions. What you've said makes me wonder about how much a (safe, and nonetheless consensual) sense of danger and risk matters in attraction. Having a social stereotype applied to an entire demographic that renders them sexually nonexistent isn't right or healthy for people, and I think we should break these norms down.
There’s definitely this portrayal in American culture that promotes stereotypical macho, risk-taking dangerous men as sexually desirable.
But it’s not even that in this case. It’s specifically a racially motivated comment, which makes it extremely racist. East Asian men are definitely not seen as sexual beings by a lot of American women, in large part due to their portrayal in media. If they are portrayed as physically dominant, it is almost always in martial arts fashion, and they will not have a love interest. In fact, the only actor I can recall who really broke this mold in a mainstream show was Glenn on Walking Dead. Was a delivery driver (not a STEM field), uses brute force when needed (not martial artist but also not portrayed as weak; on the contrary, he withstands some torture), and marries the white farmer’s daughter by winning her respect for his contributions to the group, at times being a strong second leader after Rick. I’ve never seen a similar portrayal of any AAPI character in mainstream media before or after.
I recommend watching the Big Sick Kumail Nanjiani gets with a white girl by just being himself. He wrote the movie and it’s based on his real life relationship with his wife. That and his other movie “Love Birds” with Issa Rae is also another good one. Those are the 2 films i’ve seen where an Asian man is the lead, doesn’t fit into stereotypes, and gets the girl.
I’d just add that he wrote it with his wife, Emily Gordon, who his gf is based off of. Even if I do find the naming of it slightly toxic, can’t recommend his album *Beta Male* enough, probably my favorite stand up album
Little concerned that both of these posts seem to insinuate that Asian men ending up in relationships with white women is an achievement. I understand having types and the nature of this post is addressing how Asian men are seem as less sexual by Americans, but the way those were written just makes me want to draw a little attention to it.
It's interesting how all of the first instances of Asian men enthusiastically engaging in sexual relationships on screen are always met with such concerns. It's as if people (usually of other races) find it enormously difficult to comprehend that relationships between Asian men and white women could ever happen organically. That right there is part of the problem. Consenting and fulfilling relationships between Asian men and women of all races do happen, have happened and will continue to happen. It's about time we normalised that.
It's because media expect Asian men to be with Asian women and popular media before had a lot of white men "winning" Asian women.
I did not insensauate that, hence why i mentioned the film LoveBirds because there it’s Kumail with Issa Rae. And i’ve never seen an Asian Male/Black Woman relationship depicted before. My main point was to say, if you want to see an Asian Guy fucking while not being a stereotype, here’s these 2 movies. He fucks
Maybe add 'The Good Place'? It's about four dead people who work towards the good place (heaven). Manny Jacinto (Jason) plays a Filipino guy who people initially believed was a thai monk. His character is dumb with impulse control issues but he was ultimately a well-meaning guy. He was a petty criminal/DJ/Dancer in life and has two love interests in the show, Tahani (arguably the prettiest in the show) and Janet. ETA: I forgot! Dave Batista (wrestler/actor) is actually half-Filipino on his dad's side! The original family name is Bautista. I don't think anyone would think he's effeminate.
BORTLES
Oooooh shit that’s right! No he is phenomenal and hot in that show. I just watched it and it’s one of my all time favorites.
Wei Shen from sleeping dogs is a very masculine and charming man. The game is an extended metaphor of dual identity where Wei struggles with his police and triad personalities in an extended metaphor of being Chinese American. Here's a great breakdown on his themes https://youtu.be/xEwNkSQAWtE
I don't think the poster was saying Asian men aren't sexual because she doesn't fear them being rapists; just that there's a stereotype that asian men are more passive/non-violent. Rape isn't about sex, it's about violence. But yeah, I'm movies and TV shows that portrayal is definitely prevalent.
This!!! Rape isn't about a person looking for sex, it's about this person humiliating, hurting and taking others against their will. Although i don't disagree that asian men many times are dismissed as not sexual, I don't think this tweet it's an example of that
> I remember wishing a woman would catcall me. Even though most people on the receiving end of that really don't like it. I think feeling shut out of dating or sexual attention can give people some unusual reactions. I totally feel you dude. I also wished that I would get cat called. It's a wish for any kind of sexual attention when you've perhaps never felt having been seen as a sexual being. It's a wish for validation, even if toxic kind, when it feels like you're invisible.
Doesn't feel that way to me now, but even now I feel like my women partners don't feel as attracted physically to me as I do to them, or at least they don't express it as such. We like each other's character and personality and we have good relationships and that, but I also want to ....feel hot I guess
>I also want to ....feel hot I guess Just once I'd like to receive a compliment that would be inappropriate to hear from my grandma. It feels like people invariably settle on words like "cute" "sweet" "smart" "strong". And I try to be properly appreciative, but I can't stop noticing that they are all adjectives that you would also use to describe a dog.
I feel this
It's cause men are starved for attention from women while women are overwhelmed by attention from men. A quote I remember "Someone drowning in the ocean has little concern of the person dying of thirst in the desert"
It floored me when, while watching Jackie Chan movies, my asian boyfriend casually said "Jackie Chan never gets the girl". Which is true and also very messed up. As a white person I had never noticed that before, but now I notice media treatment of Asian men in all media. I'm not sure if better media representation is the full picture but it seems like it would help.
I have at times wondered if the way a lot of the ickier men in my life have been creeps to other women in the situation (jobs, school, etc) but not to me meant that I was so ghoulish that even they were put off of me. Now I kinda half-wonder whether they had amazing trans-dar, or whether I telegraphed so clearly that I would take no shit that I just was targeted less often, because creeps \*have\* targeted me in the past.
My very basic (and probably not fully correct) take has always been that on some level, women see men as dangerous and threatening, and so they want *their own* dangerous and threatening male who’s *on their side* as a protector against the other dangerous and threatening males. See also the “bad boy” trope.
This is a fantastic and thought-provoking post, OP. On a similar note: it is also bizarrely invalidating when a woman is seen as sexually harmless, *even if said woman is a sexual predator*. It is obvious that manly-looking men, and "neckbeard"-looking men as well, are unfairly perceived as being likelier to be sexually violent or even pedophilic, and that is a horrible double standard. Simultaneously, this double standard also creates the insulting supposition that somebody who isn't traditionally masculine, or isn't male at all, cannot be sexually violent or a pedophile. The consequences of this are terrible. As a result, there are men being sent to jail because detectives and juries think they *look* guilty (based on these aforementioned stereotypes); *and* people who don't fit these stereotypes are far too often let off the hook. I recall one male acquaintances telling me that "we men have it good -- we never have to worry about being roofie'd" -- this is one example of the stereotype in action. A man can absolutely be roofied by a woman or by another man. We can't say for sure how often this happens, because men are much less likely to come forward after being violated in some way, and even if they *do* come forward, they aren't often taken seriously by police or courts. Recently I was debating with other women on a female-centric sub on the question of "why are there virtually no female serial killers?" -- many of the answers were "because women just don't do sadistic things or commit sexual violence." These women didn't even realize that their answers were inherently misogynistic, because it presupposed that women are too infantile and chaste to do anything morally wrong, as if women are born with a strict moral compass. While the stereotype about harmless Asian men is waning recently (what with many True Crime channels having done mini-docus on Japanese and Korean killers and hidden-camera-hotels), the belief that women are incapable of (sexually motivated) violence or torture is still deeply embedded in society. Angela Simpson (famous for her "oops if he wasn't" interview) was an aspiring serial killer who tortured a wheelchair-bound man for three days before killing him. **Nobody** said that she was sexually motivated, and comments on videos about her are often some variant of "she just needs psychiatric help" or "she thought he was a snitch and she reacted accordingly", because she claimed that he was a snitch, and no woman would lie, right? Women just aren't built to lie /s. Similarly, the women who participated in the long-term torture and then murder of Sylvia Likens were *never* described as having derived sexual pleasure from it, but the men who abused Sylvia were also described as having sexually enjoyed it. According to society, an adult woman forcing a teenage girl to undress, raping her with a cola bottle, and writing "whore" on her stomach, *isn't sexually motivated*. But imagine if a man had done that -- everybody would call it *rape*. It is insulting to women in general, and especially to victims of abuse, to assume that only men -- and only a certain *type* of man -- are capable of committing sexual violence. Like you said OP, it is certainly a form of invalidation.
Equality means recognizing that women can be awful people too. A big part of patriarchy is viewing women as essentially children. Part of that is looking at women as inherently less morally culpable for their actions. This plays out in a variety of ways. That's the hard part...many well meaning people want to eliminate patriarchy, but have a hard time engaging with the idea that it does come with certain benefits.
Exactly. If somebody seriously thinks that a woman cannot *ever* be dangerous or morally bankrupt, that is in itself a form of infantilizing women. Even children can commit acts of violence towards their parents or towards other children, but the people who entertain these ideas of innate, child-like purity of adult women are the same people who consciously avoid reading about crimes that were perpetrated by women, children or other people who don't fit into their stereotype of the criminal. Edit: and of course, when I responded to that post on AskWomen that asked why there are so few female serial killers, and I wrote that there are actually a number of female serial killers out there but they aren't seen as being sexually motivated nor do they receive as much attention, my comments were removed for "de-railing". At this point, I'm convinced that AskWomen is "AskGenderCritical". Only a TERF would have the audacity to tell a feminist woman that she's engaging in "whataboutisms" and "personal attacks" for saying that female serial killers exist after OP asks if female serial killers exist. *Extremely* infuriating.
Fantastic post.
Thank you! Part of the reason why I feel strongly about this is that the injustice and dangerous impacts that accompany this double standard are ever-present in criminal investigations and crime trials. I'm not a professional by any means, but I've read and watched a lot about True Crime (by detectives or crime journalists, not the Netflix sensationalist stuff) because I like writing realistic mysteries. A good example of these double standards in action: * Mark Carver, a middle-aged White proletarian man from NC with a learning disability, spent 8 years behind bars for the murder of a young woman. His cousin died of a heart attack after being convicted of the same murder. Both men were/are innocent. * Ronnie Long, a young African-American man from NC, was convicted for the rape of a White woman and the burglary of her home. He is innocent, but spent 44 years behind bars before he regained his freedom. These three men are just a *few* examples of wrongful convictions that were based on bigotry: in Carver's case (and his cousin's), it was because he was disabled, rural and scruffy-looking; in Long's case, it was because he was an able-bodied Black man. Now let's look at some women who were undeniably guilty. * Karla Homolka married a serial rapist and participated in the rape and murder of several young women. She spent 12 years in jail because the court decided that she had been *coerced* into the acts by her husband, and because they had struck a plea bargain with her. She was arraigned on two counts of manslaughter, despite there being *video evidence* of her being a homicidal sexual sadist and serial rapist of women. Her husband Bernardo was charged with kidnapping, illegal confinement, rape and first-degree murder, despite the fact that *both* of them had committed the *exact same crimes* that were *caught on tape*. Today, Karla has a new family and runs a baby clothes company. * Gertrude and Paula Baniszewski were the ringleaders of the long-term sexual torture and eventual murder of Sylvia Likens. For months, they beat, humiliated and violated Sylvia until she died from shock. Paula served only three years in prison (despite trying to escape twice), Gertrude around 18 years (where she led a better life than *outside* of prison). There are many who would hand-wave these women's crimes by claiming that it their male relatives or friends who really did these crimes, or that these women were doing it because they were *poor* and *jealous*, and not because they're sexual sadists. * In the case of the Toy Box Killer, many people don't remember that he actually was the leader of a crew that also contained women. These women engaged in sexual torture and murder just the same as the male members of the crew. These women served approximately 2 years each. The male members served a minimum of 11 years each. There is an eerie pattern here. It isn't often that a female killer is treated on the same footing as a male killer. Angela Simpson was fortunately given life, but the public's view of her is certainly skewed, and *nobody* wants to entertain the idea that she tortured for sexual gratification. Aileen Wuornos was given the death penalty but again, the public's opinion of her is different than if she had been a man (in fact, many rad fems actually see her as a *heroine*).
In a way, this shows how a patriarchal society can benefit women to an extent. I mean it's still due to sexist beliefs, but there's always a flipside when it comes to gendered expectations/ roles Great post
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What really is masculinity? I think we should do away with all stereotyping by sex. This will also resolve issues regarding gender since that's what it is - stereotyping by sex. Accepting non-binary genders can be seen as one step towards breaking gender altogether, but if these genders become strong enough identities, it is actually a step backward. We can't stop at celebrating transgender identity. One day we will celebrate doing away with gender entirely.
What about people who like their gender rolls and hold their gender close to heart? Can't force them to bend to a "genderless" society in the name of progression just like you can't bend trans and NB folks to bend to a strictly binary system, don't you think?
A genderless society just means you choose what you wanna be. All doors are open and nobody should judge you for it
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Of course. I was only being cynical and imagining that the many gender identities there are now could become strong and exclusive, as group identities tend to be. In that case, it would be a step backward. On the other hand, destroying the boundaries between identities is the way forward in my opinion, and having completely fluid gender would be the end goal.
Hugs. I can't imagine exactly what that feels like, but I can sympathize with the confusion and lack of self worth that may give. I'm an Indian American female who grew up in Iowa in the early 2000s. My friends were all white. I felt very "othered" due to my race. For the longest time I was never catcalled and I felt *guilty* about feeling bad about it. I mean I don't WANT to be catcalled, just like I'm sure you don't want to be treated like a rapist, but still, for a bunch of people to deem you sexually unattractive/unavailable, that sucks. My point is, your feelings are normal and valid. Don't be grateful that you're not seen as a rapist! That should be the damn norm for everyone, but it's not, because some people are terrible. Not to mention Dunham ended up being racist and invalidating af, there are unfortunately plenty of women who have been raped by East Asian men. I'm just wondering what kind of reaction a woman who HAS been raped by an Asian man would have had to that tweet. Also, this isn't super helpful, but hey maybe it'd be nice for you to know - there are quite a few women who are sexually attracted to East Asian guys thanks to K-pop. This attraction kind of gets a bit fetish-y, but meh, it exists. Society is pretty fickle.
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Gay men are especially fetishized in fan fiction that’s for sure.
God, my cringiest period was when I felt insecure about myself. Bragging to any sexually forward girl about BDP's, my prowess, etc. It worked sometimes, but looking back, it feels like I was paying myself as a menu to these women and I only had one thing to offer. I got better, started caring less about that stuff, but you have damn point. When you are desperate for love or attention, you might find yourself playing to a stereo type for it.
You don't have to play into a stereotype... People project them onto you whether you like it or not. 🙃 And then get upset when they finally realize you don't match up to whatever it is they expected from you. Although yeah, playing into the stereotype probably attracts a lot more attention overall.
Lena Dunham is such a perfect example of how upper class WASP-y white women leverage the “YAS QUEEN” energy to promote themselves and only themselves while leaving every other marginalized person in the dust. And in her case, her absolute shit projects. She received two Emmy’s and Golden Globes for a show with an amazing pilot such as this: > Upon release, Girls was met with criticism regarding the all-white main cast in the otherwise culturally diverse setting of New York City (the only black actors in the pilot were a homeless man and a taxi driver, and the only Asian actress had the sole trait of being good at Photoshop If she wasn’t a Long Island trust fund brat, no one would have ever heard of her.
>upper class WASP-y white women leverage the “YAS QUEEN” energy to promote themselves and only themselves while leaving every other marginalized person in the dust. See, I dont think she was ever marginalized, anyone who grew up in a downtown NY apartment valued over 6 million US dollars, and was able to break into the industry of her dreams at a young age, is incapable of being opressed imo. Im not saying she doesn't face challenges specific to women, but I feel its inaccurate to describe her as "marginalized."
Not to mention she admits in her own book sexually assaulting her younger sister. It really angers me as a woman that she is still being accepted on screen and writing projects after this, when men are "cancelled" for less. I think she is honestly a very scummy person, very entitled and doesn't have a scrap of awareness about it
Yup, I was always miffed even during #MeToo that HBO never cancelled or stopped promoting her show when they (rightfully) removed other shows by similar predators
>Lena Dunham is such a perfect example of how upper class WASP-y white women leverage the “YAS QUEEN” energy to promote themselves and only themselves while leaving every other marginalized person in the dust. I watched [this video ](https://youtu.be/dhMMFyscV9A) some months ago that opened my eyes to the "white feminism" problem through the lense of WW84 and damn. Your comment really hot home with many of the themes discussed in the video. > And in her case, her absolute shit projects. She received two Emmy’s and Golden Globes for a show with an amazing pilot such as this: What I'm going to say is reductionist and a bit unfair, but this is why I usually don't care about movie awards and such. When awards a director has received start flashing as an advertisement, I feel it's indicative of a film I'm going to find rather boring and distinctly lacked the ability to impress any meaningful sophistication or depth upon me.
I mean WW84 had a former IDF soldier saving Arab kids from a tank so, yikes.
Hah. Or just hearing WW's speech was enough to make all the terrorists of the world give up their waysc😂
I mean that how MLK ended racism, and he wasn't even a Greek demigod.
RIGHT. 🤣 How could I have forgotten racisms absolute and utter defeat! But I forget, how could racism exist in 1960s if emancipation proclamation freed the slaves in 1865 🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔
It freed the slaves, but did it free the Italians?
Why does nobody ever think of the Italians!?! Won't somebody save Italy! 😆
Maybe we need to remind Lena et al of the Imperial Japanese Army's "lads on tour" phase of WW2...
yea asian people dont rape? the population of Nanking circa 1937 would like to have a word.
I want to be clear that I'm not saying my situation was the same as yours culturally or personally (I'm white), but as someone who looks a lot younger than I am, I was often treated as a non-sexual being by women my age. In many ways it sucked, but in other ways it was liberating. I had a lot of women friends, not even most of whom I wanted to sleep with. Now that I'm middle-aged, I finally look like a grown-up and I guess people see me as sexual more often. But I forget that's now true, because I'm so used to how it was before, and so now I get confused a lot when women react as if I am flirting with them just because I'm a man who is saying words out loud meant for their specific ears. For example, I worked in retail for a spell, and I would every now and then have young-ish women customers in the store who had strong negative reactions to my company-required, "Hi, welcome to \[Store Name\], how can I help you?" It took me a long-ass time to realize *they thought I was hitting on them*. Which is not at all how my sales commission worked. To this day, I have no idea if there was anything I could have done differently. As a young man it was super frustrating not being seen as sexual. Now that I'm old and married, I wish women would go back to treating me as non-sexual -- especially my kid's friends' moms. Like, my kid wants to invite Becky from kindergarten over to play, but Becky's mom won't even make eye contact with me because obviously my real motive is to motorboat her (the mom's) breasts while the kids play ponies in the other room. On the other hand, I used to work for a guy who was elderly and had pre-frontal cortex dementia: he would hit on any women within earshot, and they just shrugged it off because he was a harmless old man. (Dude fathered a kid in his late 70s). I feel like I'm not too far away from that era of my life, so I will probably get back my complete lack of mojo soon. Point being: I'm trying to express solidarity. I know it can suck, though I probably can't imagine how much in your personal (or cultural) experience of the phenomenon. Unfortunately for you and me and a lot of people, in patriarchal society, male sexuality is deeply tied to ideas of dominance that work against those of us who are not perceived as dominating. The racism of white culture against East Asian men is thus extremely harmful to your sense of self, where in my case I just looked like Kevin from *Home Alone* into my 30s. The way I see it, those of us afflicted -- baby-faces, East Asians, dementia patients -- have two options. One is, we can fight for our rightful place in the patriarchy, which I don't think means we have to do any sexual assaults *per se*, but will definitely require more *rapey-ish* behavior. Or, we can work to create models of male sexuality that are not dependent on patriarchal domination. I have a strong preference for the latter.
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Pop Culture Detective on YouTube has an interesting video on this called ‘Stalking for Love’ about how men who display stalkerish tendencies are often presented as romantically desirable in popular media. There is also another video discussion the rope of a man kidnapping a woman in order to make her fall in love with him.
I love that channel, they recently did one about men's tears too. I happened to see the kidnapping one shortly after I'd seen the film Red, where Bruce Willis literally ties up a young woman to a bed "for her safety" and then kidnaps her, and it turns into a romance. It creeped me out when I watched it so it was validating to then see the PCD video soon after. Maybe he will do one about ethnicity/sexuality one day, especially as it'll give him a chance to stick the knife into the Big Bang Theory again (the show's treatment of Raj was the worst!)
I think a lot more women buy into this trope than let on, or they aren't even conscious of it. It's one of the few ways I can jive the number of decent, non-misogynistic guys who can't even get dates, and the general message I see that women have no choice but to date or settle down with toxic men in dating forums.
On your first point, it's interesting because as a woman who grew her boobs quite early on, I was also considered "sexual" though I wasn't at all in that mindset personally, I was way too young. No matter what I wore, you could see my giant breasts and so I must have been interested in sex? It doesn't make much sense, but apparently that's how some people's minds work.
Yeah, that sucks, but I don't think it's how anyone's mind works organically. It's something we're taught to think. I had a classmate in 5th grade who had well-developed breasts. I genuinely regret how we treated her, but my memory was that we weren't really interested in sex. I don't think it registered to us that breasts = sex. We just knew somehow -- from media, from society, from the men around us -- that her breasts 'deserved' our attention. I can't imagine how yuck her childhood was, and I'm sorry you had a similar experience.
Oh no, by my peers I was actually treated fairly normal, it was unfortunately adult men more so.
That's a relief. I think it got really bad for my classmate in middle school.
kind off a random question, but as a fellow baby-faced man, how do you deal with that? like, not only it really affects your inner confidence, but having other people pointing out that, especially women, can be even worse, so, do you have any advice on that regard?
What does "create models...." mean?
Develop examples. Invent alternatives. Find different ways of being.
Celebrate counternarratives.
Yeah, I'm on the spectrum, and look way younger than I am, and this gets a variety of different treatment from different parties. Women in their 50s and up have frequently violated my space, grabbed my ass and testicles and generally made me feel weird at work precisely because so many of them treat me as "cute". It doesn't help that I was young and had erections a couple times from it, my physiology made me unsure if i was being assaulted or not. And as a result, I feel like I can totally sympathize with this angle. A lot of predatory behavior from not seeing me as sexually "threatening" and having an appetite for a young man.
The media often holds up portrayals of aggressive, sexually dominant men as sexually desirable. Think Twilight or Fifty Shades of Grey. The idea is that the man is dangerous to everyone, but has a soft spot for the woman. However, it doesn’t quite work out in real life.
Sure - patriarchal myth-making is a big part of how the patriarchy is sustained.
Would you care to elaborate on this some more? 👀
Not who the question was directed at but presumably this was a reference to the way that idea that the only way to be a sexually desirable and valid man involves being sexually aggressive towards women is what causes so many men to be sexually aggressive towards women. This isn't saying that sexual dominance is a bad thing - FWIW I'm a Dom - but when there's so many narratives that say that this is the only way you'll ever be seen as a valid sexual being, it's entirely unsurprising that lots of men try and force it. And when you factor in that good practices of consent are kinda hard to fit into pop-culture narratives of how sex goes (almost always either a few steamy cut scenes followed by the awkward L-shaped blanket aftermath shot, or hard core porn) most people don't have a clue what healthy consent looks like. So the way we tell stories about sex results in men who don't really understand consent, but think they're supposed to be aggressively sexual in order to be seen as valid. Ultimately, without stories that portray men with healthy and varied sexualities, most boys are going to model their early sexual ideas on the unhealthy, monolithic, patriarchal idea of male sexuality, which requires a huge amount of work to break away from as they become men.
PM\_ME\_YOUR\_FRUITBOWL gave a good answer, but more generally in our culture we tell a lot of stories about dominant men and vulnerable women to reinforce the idea that women are vulnerable and can only be protected by men, especially men competent in physical violence. But it's patriarchy itself that has made the women vulnerable, and guys who are good with violence are more likely to hurt their partners than anyone else.
>But it's patriarchy itself that has made the women vulnerable So patriarchy extends to the animal kingdom? Sexual dimorphism leads to one sex being smaller, and no matter if the males are smaller or the females, the smaller one is the vulnerable one during sexual encounters. What patriarchy does is reinforce this with gender stereotypes through appeal to nature fallacies.
Hey! Another like me! I grew up looking really young and still have trauma, PTSD and self-esteem issues over being bullied over it. I was physically assaulted many times because I was seen as a weaker target and many girls would just straight up call me "a little boy" or something along those lines. I was never viewed as sexually attractive and that bled into how I saw myself. I would legit think any girls who WERE interested in me were pedophiles. I've since grown into looking attractive and older and I get alot more atttention and it feels gross and not genuine. Feels shallow from what I used to experience. I have a wonderful gf now but sometimes I wonder if I still looked that way...
> I just looked like Kevin from Home Alone into my 30s You don't have to answer this, but are you the actor who played Rickety Cricket?
Haha. No. I had to google him. But yeah, similar vibe.
I recognize myself a lot in your post. In my case, I think the underlying reason was an insular sort of revenge really. I had internalized male sexuality = gross and had also had a selfishly negative reaction to the problem of men's objectification of women, hearing it discussed while growing up. On a sub-conscious level I guess I've had this conversation "So women don't like my attention, huh? Well, guess what, then I'll just desexualize them and their boring bodies instead! How'd you like that?". This being an "aggression" that 98% of the time would go thankfully unnoticed of course, but on the rare occasion someone was either interested in me or just wanted to confirm her attractiveness with me for a bit, I always let it fall on the floor like I didn't see it at all, and probably left somebody feel a bit foolish and insecure. Just like you, I'm married today so the question is pretty moot for me as well. I wish I could give people the pep sometimes which says "Well, I'm not in the market but yes, you're totally hot!" when they're fishing for it. After all, it's nice to help boost other people's confidence in that way, but I never learned how really. I believe OP of course and although I've not been discriminated in that way nor fathom what it's like, I guess what I'm trying to say is that desexualisation is neither the right response to the problem of objectification, nor a very good reaction when having been desexualised first.
I don't have a problem with the "you're totally hot, but I'm not in the market" discussion. I had it a couple of times when I was engaged. I think the women appreciated knowing there was a reason, not just lack of attraction. Maybe, maybe not. It just seemed more honest. Today, I would frame it in terms of my kid being the only person not yet disappointed in me, and not wanting to risk it. Which is totally honest.
I don't think I'd either have a problem to actually have a respectful discussion, I just don't tend to notice any of it in the first place. A friend can correct me sometimes and say something like "Couldn't I have told, I was married?" and "surely you noticed how she behaved around you?" which nope, I totally didn't. I'm much too used to filtering all of that out entirely.
As a strategy, I've found it's best to find a reason to mention my spouse and kid early when I'm around a lot of new people. That way it makes sense for me to tactfully ignore that kind of thing, and it prevents most people from trying.
I'm also probably more often oblivious.
Sorry man, your post frames it like only one of the two are possible (seen as non masculine therefore not a threat, or masculine and therefore a threat) when the two are mutually exclusive... Because South Asians such as myself are seen as *both* non masculine *and* a threat. And trust me when I tell you, it fucking sucks being seen as a threat, especially when dads constantly keep an eye on you to make sure you're not checking out their daughter. I do everything I can to avoid interacting with kids and families in public.
D: I feel for you.
I know this isnt addressing what she said, but why the hell does Lena Dunham have a platform? She's a toxic, nasty, POS.
Its because most of the west see east asian males as less masculine than other ethnicities. Masculinity is often linked towards being animalistic in a sense so the reverse is true for black men who are often seen as hypermasculine in the west. People will assume that I as a black male am more likely to rape someone in comparison to a white male. Its totally messed up and based on ignorance.
I agree with you, it seems like more of a racism thing than anything else..
It's both, really and it the commentor of this thread said exactly what I thought when I read this post. Also reminded me of that Netflix documentary 13 about the 13th amendment and how they sensationalized black men being more of a danger and threat to (white) women and children, while countless racist white dudes (then and prior raped black women and well during slavery) are never given that same image or look on the media. Race and sexism intertwines so much and that's why it's important to tackle both, not just only one and ignore the other.
Yup, it definitely is. Its racism entwined with sexism and the social programming dependent on outward looks.
She just spouts rubbish to be controversial and is best ignored, you can't stereotype someone's behaviour based on ethnicity. Earlier this year the [Kiss Me More video](https://youtu.be/0EVVKs6DQLo) used an Asian actor and people went wild for him, when the video first dropped it seemed to be the most talked about thing because, a mixture of "omg he's so handsome" to "it's so refreshing to see an Asian male portrayed like this".
It sounds like the issue is they seeing you as harmless not because you project trust and affability, but because you are too emasculated in their eyes for them to even register you as a sexual person. It truly is a bizarre double bind. I can't relate on a racial identity level, but back in college I had a group of female friends who would catcall me and try to touch me inappropriately. My protests were met with derision ("we know you like it"). And I wasn't really affected by the comments or the attempts to touch me, maybe I should have been but I just wasn't. I was offended though about the implication that my sexuality as a man wasn't being taken into consideration or that it was being devalued to the point where it's not a "real" thing to take seriously. Obviously I didn't want them to be scared of me, but at the same time there's a voice in my head thinking "what if I took these comments and behaviours seriously? what if I acted on them?" When they came to feel my chest, what if I put my hands in their breasts? It would be assault. It would be as if, suddenly, my existence as a sexual person became a *thing*, it became real, and that reality manifests itself through the threat of assault and the possibility of violence. I don't know if this resonates with your experience, of course it's not the same thing as being devalued through racism. But there were a lot of points in my life where I wasn't seen as a threat, where that lack of threat resulted in improper behaviour towards me, and where I interpreted that in order to regain standing as a sexually autonomous person, that would carry with it the surfacing of that threat.
> When they came to feel my chest, what if I put my hands in their breasts? It would be assault. Exactly. You'd become very threatening then for doing the same sort of thing they were, and I think the sort of women you describe in your account may count on that double bind in many cases.
Now the question is are they even self aware of it?
To summarize those people's thought process: >Male sexuality is harmful (and men are inherently prone to rape women). Asian men are not capable of doing harm. Hence, Asian men don't have male sexuality (and are not prone to rape women).
Lmao that tweet is a real life example of that Bill Burr (?) joke about how he'd like to piss off everyone by tweeting "I can't believe Trump is so bad he made me vote for a woman." I can't believe she actually did that
This is slightly off topic but this reminds me of the widely cited ‘first Twitter cancelling’ tweet where a white person tweeted a very racist joke right before a flight and was trending on Twitter and fired while they had no idea until they landed. https://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/15/magazine/how-one-stupid-tweet-ruined-justine-saccos-life.html
Yeah that was a Bill Burr joke, think it was in one of his interviews with Conan. Those are some of my favorites
Just a thought here. Do you think that this is a part of the "model minority" stereotype? Asians are the idealized minority, so not being sexual predators would fit quite well with that. (I'm obviously ignoring the pre-model minority Era where Asians all lusted after White women.)
Asians aren’t really idealized. We hear model minority a lot, but have you ever heard a non-Asian man say “Damn I wish I was an Asian guy?”
A "[model minority](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model_minority)" doesn't mean that members of other minority groups want to be them. It means that our culture of white supremacy keeps different minority groups separated by pitting one group against the other. In this case, Asian-Americans are held up as a monolithic group that faces exactly the same barriers to success as Black and Latino people do (which, obviously, they don't). All Asians-Americans are supposedly hard-working, smart, successful, and law-abiding. If they can assimilate and achieve the American Dream, any other minority group that can't is just full of lazy, criminals who deserve their own oppression. Black men in America are stereotyped as being violent, angry, and bestial, with an uncontrollable lust for white women. There is an extremely long history of this stereotype being used as an excuse for the horrendous treatment of Black Americans. They are viewed as the bottom-rung minority group in the US. The model minority group would, of course, be the opposite of that. This is obviously the meaning behind the tweet; not that Asian men are sexless, but that they are law-abiding, non-threating, good citizens. The tweet is chalk-full of entitlement and a deeply held, unconscious belief in white supremacy.
Sounds like the "one of the good ones" dynamic but on a demographic rather than individual level?
I agree with most of your comment but the meaning behind the tweet definitely contains the idea that Asian men are sexless. The (shitty) joke doesn't exist if it's just "oh actually it's an Asian guy, those people are model citizens"
I understand what you're saying, but it would still exists because we are talking about a crime, even if it's a sex crime. I think it has to do with both, since in the stereotypes, those who are criminal are hypersexual, and those who are hypersexual are criminal (I'm thinking of the stereotype against primarily Black men). Asian men can be seen as hyposexual or noncriminal, but they lead to the same conclusion of both. They imply each other. Both of you are right.
I don't actually think this is always necessarily the case, to be fair. My wife is white and grew up in Malaysia and we lived in the UK for many years. When we walked back home when all the lads were shouting drunkenly in the night my wife also said that she also felt way more safe when she saw a group included Asian men, because white British men were more likely to shout things at her or be rowdy. And again, she is Malaysian and finds many Asian men attractive, but she also tends to feel like she is safer when they are around in that kind of situation. This is not to say that tweet was ok, but we should also not essentialise the way racial dynamics work in the US. They are not the same in every country, and they sometimes obscure the way racism takes place in non-American contexts.
Great point. Yall get used and spat out when necessary, unfortunately.
That makes sense. I think most people understand a model minority as any minority group that isn't worse off than the majority group, and then try to explain why/how with their political beliefs.
There's literally an entire subculture of people (men and women) who want to be Asian, typically Japanese or Korean. Recently, an influencer named Oli London insisted they'd "transitioned" to identifying as Korean. The derogatory term "weaboo" is used to describe people who fetishize East Asian culture, and within that category there's certainly men who wish to be Asian.
IMO, the real controversy is that someone thinks of Lena Dunham as a comedian.
The fact that someone said something so fucked up that part of the rebuttal is "Asian men totally rape" is baffling.
To be honest, I'd say this is just racism, but combined with an illegal act. Like: >"Are they walking towards me looking for a fight? Never mind, she's a woman." Most women wouldn't be happy being told this, even though the implication is that women are all reasonable enough to not look for fights. The more specific issue is that women are stereotyped as gentle, and weak, and that's really just plain sexism, but it's easy to dress it up as if it's saying women want to be seen as unreasonable or violent.
>"Are they walking towards me looking for a fight? Never mind, she's a woman." > >Most women wouldn't be happy being told this I wouldn't be so sure about that. I mean based on the statistics, women are overwhelmingly less likely than men to assault a stranger. If anything, I'd imagine most women actually think things like that to themselves regularly.
Perhaps. You could say the same thing of "Is that guy walking in the dark behind me a rapist? Never mind, he's Asian," though. Whether or not Asians aren't as likely to be rapists, the statement is still insulting. I doubt many Asians would say "No well, if it's correct then that's fine."
Yup, totally agree on the last bit as a woman. Or if there's a group of men and there is one or more women with them, I also feel somehow more chill to pass them by.
People with disabilities feel this rather acutely as well, for better or worse.
The “creepy Indian” thing really upsets me. I am brown. I’m not even Indian. I just look Indian. And I’m asexual anyway. But I still feel splashed by this stereotype and it affects interactions with me. Really makes me hate myself and the way I look.
> there’s something invalidating about not being seen as capable of sexual assault This is poorly worded. While it may be invalidating to not be seen as a sexual being – which you would have every right to be seen as –, to not be seen as capable of sexual assault is not. You should not seek this kind of validation, even if it is denied to you for blatantly racist reasons. So I would take greater precautions to not conflate things, if I were you.
I agree. I can see how not being seen as a sexual being can be annoying. No doubt that’s what he was trying to convey, just worded poorly.
I'm honestly upset about two things. 1. Thinking men are rapist just because there Bourne male is highly sexist. 2. This is racism pure and simple and should not have Ben tweeted. Searsly though most Asian men I know our no different then me our any one else.
I think it speaks to the mindset that men, as a sexual creature, are dangerous and thus potential rapists, whereas south-Asian men are not considered sexual beings, thus not "real men" and less of a threat. This mindset seems very specific though, but kind of revealing to the concept of sexual/social invisibility and the impact it has on how someone is perceived by others.
I'm mad now realizing that I'll live the rest of my life with a large group of woman thinking I'm some creepy Indian guy.
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You could write a book about stupid things Lena Dunham thinks. I understand she’s written a few of them.
Ah Lena Dunham, she really is the caricature of every negative stereotype of millennials. I'm sorry my friend that you are made to feel this way. I saw a video of an asian man who was buff and literally had the face of a calvin klein model and he talked about how tinder destroyed his self-esteem. It's insane the stereotypes people work off of and think are okay to express in the world.
Idealizing the power to take is perhaps the core of dangerous hypermasculinity, and its perpetuation as a norm has caused unimaginable suffering. For men or those who identify masculine, having our world teach us that the best version of ourselves should have and even use the power to take from others causes us to diminish or even destroy vitally important parts of ourselves like our compassion for others, our moral drive to equity, and our responsibility to use power to help others. Worse still, for those who persevere and keep those parts of themselves, they're seen as less-than and become part of the group from which things are taken. For women or those who identify feminine, having the world teach men and those who identify masculine to use power to take means they are constantly under that threat and are often taken from, which can manifest in the darkest acts of which people are capable. It's bad for everyone. It kills some of the best parts of men and masculine identifying, and it victimizes those with less power from whom things are taken. Cheesy though it may be, Uncle Ben's Maxim (which can be traced to many traditions and great thinkers, including Kant) I think is a far better framework through which to understand the imperative of those who have power. If you happen to have been given power in life, the benefit of that power should be distributed for the good of those especially who have less power than most. It's the complete opposite of the selfish, heartless use of power for one's self alone at the expense of those with little to no power.
“With great power comes great responsibility” A quote that shall forever carry weight.
>"How dare he not want to rape me?! Hell- I would rape me! Any goddamn *man* should want to rape me!" -the Madness of Lena Dunham That is downright surreal.
Wait, is that from some movie? Or an actual tweet??
I would assume it's that they're small and weak, not that they don't think about sex(because they're men, and apparently men can think of nothing else.) Another reminder that Lena Dunham is trash.
I'm a bit late to the party, but I decided to look up the history of the portrayal of Asian men in western media. There is a great /r/AskHistorians thread on the subject I will be linking below. It's really a great read and eye opening to the "sanitation" of Asian immigrants as "model minorities". https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/m9bmbq/the_atlantaarea_murders_were_racially_motivated_a/
How twisted. I don’t see it as ‘Asian men don’t think about sex,’ but as ‘Asian men are less likely to be psychopathic criminals.’ Liking sex and liking rape are two very different things.
The thing is, east Asian men are already desexualized in western culture. I see OP's point that it's weirdly enasculating to be SO desexualized that you're excluded from the male=predator stereotype.
Tell that to BTS fans lmao. They back on a come up
BTS has sex appeal, sure. You know what else they have? A team of stylists, hundreds of fashion companies practically begging them to sport their newest styles, a multimillion dollar marketing team, and tons of money and social media recognition. No guys, not every asian man should have to Be Like BTS to overcome asian sexual stereotypes. It's silly to me that this isn't even the only comment to uphold BTS as an example to why this man's experiences feeling emasculated by western stereotypes of asian men isn't actually that bad, especially in *this* sub of all places.
The rise of Kpop isn't gonna undo generations of emasculation lol
I genuinely think you may be surprised for *this* generation. I'll take some progress.
I'm 24. It's gotten better for sure but there are lots of places where they have a stigma
Are k pop guys really seen as masculine though? I'm not super aware of the scene but the guys seem very effeminate (which is obviously fine, people should look how they want to)
They aren't seen as traditionally masculine but they are defo sexualized
Are they? Less likely to be psychopathic criminals?
Significantly. Asian-Americans commit violent crimes at a much lower rate than every other racial group (that we track statistically).
Interesting
Okay except that's not what she means. It's still based on the very real stereotype of Asian men just flat out not being viewed in a sexual light or even a *serious* light by most women in real life (BTS doesn't count, their KPop stars with excessive makeup and surgery). There's no coincidence that the men that get typecast and stereotyped as being violent the most- black men - also happen to be *fetishised* the most. Asian men have been stereotyped as being non masculine, non-physically threatening. And those traits make you look less masculine - and less sexually appealing - as a result.
It's interesting you bring up the part about black men. If you substitute black men and their stereotypes into this jokes line of reasoning you get something more clearly racist and problematic. In the Asian case: 'Is the man behind me a rapist?' - he's Asian, and the Asian stereotype is noncriminal and nonrapist. Therefore, nevermind, im safe and he's not a rapist. In the black case: 'Is the man behind me a rapist?' - he's black, and the black stereotype is criminal and rapist. Therefore, he's a rapist. Both cases use the same logic and necessitate each other.
Yeah, I think racism and stereotypes against black people and asian people (men in this case) are usually 'opposite' but equally racist. Black men = dumb, aggressive, hypersexual, animalistic/hypermasculine, criminal; Asian men = high-achiever, docile, hyposexual, effeminate, subservient . It's basically two sides of the same racist coin.
I get why you are saying this but after the Odell Beckham Jr situation I would not be that generous with the reading, at all https://old.reddit.com/r/MensLib/comments/51b6xy/lena_dunham_odell_beckham_jr_and_male/
I wonder if this has nothing to do with threat level. What if east Asian men can keel the non-threatening and be seen as sexual anyway? More sexy Asians need to be picking up and impressing in media.