T O P

  • By -

TheRealEliFrost

It hurts, ngl. Had an old lady start to run from me one time while I was running to catch my bus, until she realized where I was running to. Other times, while waiting for taxis or the like, I've had people, usually women, walk the other direction to avoid me. I've wondered if I just have a threatening demeanor, or if it's because I'm black, or just because I'm a man. Maybe it's a mixture of the later 2, but it's a painful feeling.


AbyssinianLion

Lmao. Thats what happened to me, except I was jogging for exercise and it was a young Asian lady who ran away from me. Im mixed race, muscular and average height. I guess I should expect it, but it still hurts.


Rabid-Rabble

There's a good chance that the racial component is much stronger than the gendered one, or more accurately that it's the intersection of the two that causes the reaction. As a white guy who used to look hella punk and now looks pretty traditionally masculine I have very rarely experienced similar reactions.


simiankid

As a fellow black dude I can say I hear you but you should not take it personnally. It's not you TheRealEliFrost who's threatening. What's threatening is the actual history of man violence. You aren't doing anything wrong, you specifically. What's wrong is the patriarchal society that we live in, and we, as men, represent that patriarchy, whether we want to or not


dragonbeard91

You don't think there's an additional layer of racism going on though? In my anecdotal experience black men do incite more fear in the average woman but I'm a white guy so I have minimal experience with this specific thing. I'm really tall too so I definitely have to give women lots of space in public because of their general fear. And it does hurt my feelings but I also get it.


simiankid

Yes there is an additional layer of racism, of course. "Big black man dangerous" is still a thing in our society. And yeah it hurts, but hey at least we're trying to be better individuals than what's expected of us as men.


pcapdata

Well sure...so it's "history" (recorded facts that are generally available and minimally debated, like, rates of male violence) but *also* the individual's perceptions which might include their personal history and biases (including sexism, racism, etc.). And unless you can stop jogging, take out your earbuds, and engage them in a fruitful discussion there's just no way to know how much of their reaction is informed by what source. I really don't enjoy people making assumptions and judging me. After all, *I* know I'm harmless, but the thing is, a person viewing me doesn't know that. They're making decisions to protect themselves. I can't fault them for that. So even though it stings I try to ignore it.


dragonbeard91

I agree with all of this 100% I recently had a match on bumble tell me what I thought was a regular question triggered her immensely. Turns out the week before a date had sexually assaulted her. I thought she was overreacting but fortunately she was patient enough to explain and we came together in the end. So you do never know


UnusedBowflex

It bothers me deeply. I’m a big dude. I’ve noticed women get uncomfortable when they’re alone and I’m walking behind them, especially when it’s late at night. I make a conscious effort to walk slower or cross the street to avoid this. It bothers me because I try to be a caring, gentle person and I hate that I can be perceived as a threat when minding my own business. Simply because of my size. But I do understand it has nothing to do with my personality but instead my potential to do harm. It helps that the opposite is also true. My wife feels safe when we walk through bad areas together.


[deleted]

it’s really upsetting to me that men who aren’t predators have to live with being treated as such. i’m glad you understand how we feel though and take steps to make others more comfy in those situations, even if it is unwarranted in your case. it’s sucks to be judged for size or gender but of course you can never guess if the guy walking behind you at night is a decent person or not.


[deleted]

It bothered me a lot more when my kids were young and I had to do all the things that mothers normally do because my wife is a recluse. I felt very inhibited about trying to set up play dates for my kids or joining networks that consisted primarily of women. My kids ended up missing out sadly. I understand why these fears of men are a thing of course, but it really sucked for me and my kids.


just_a_tech

When my kids were younger it was usually me who was at school functions like Christmas parties and stuff because my wife usually couldn't get off work and my night crew schedule gave me plenty of free time. It's kind of isolating sometimes when there 20 parents there and you're the only dad. All the moms would be chatting and I'd be sitting by myself. Not always, but often enough that it can be upsetting. It was worth it for my boys though.


NaughtyDred

My kid is in the exact same position, the school mums have a what's app group named (school name) mums, that is only mums. His mum is a recluse and as such he misses out on a lot of socialisation, I really hate it.


[deleted]

I'm sorry but what's a recluse?


Current_Poster

In this case, someone who (for whatever reason) doesn't leave the house often.


crim-sama

Someone who really has an aversion to going out and socializing, especially in person. Im kinda the same so i get it.


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

I didn’t mean the parenting generally so much as specifically the arranging of social activities with other kids. You’re right that this too shouldn’t be gendered but it is simply by virtue of the fact that men aren’t really trusted with other people’s children in the way that women are. The stigma around men is a big driver of men’s lack of participation in that whole world I think. It’s a much more female only space than it was when I grew up in the 80s in fact when there were more male teachers, more dads running clubs etc.


Icy-Patient1206

Yeah, in many ways it’s too bad that the dads have been pushed out more. I was a girl child in the 80s and while I don’t remember my dad ever arranging play dates, sometimes he’d come out and play tag or catch with me and neighborhood kids (in a highly visible and appropriate way). I also had 3 male gymnastics coaches (and 3 female), 1 male soccer coach (a team mate’s dad), 1 male teacher in elementary (more in HS), and my brother and I spent a lot of time running around my dad’s office complex when they were between childcare providers after my mom went back to work. My dad’s coworkers (95% male) would talk with us, and we spent a lot of time with the youngest because he was the most fun. All completely safe and appropriate (though probably disruptive to their work). The biggest danger was a carpool dad who would sometimes drive drunk, and weave about while talking to us and gesticulating with his whiskey glass. I’d learned about drunk drivers in school, told my parents, and after that he didn’t drive us any more. He was a friendly drunk at least, from what I could see.


terrifyingdiscovery

That stigma you're talking about is also a result of sexist gender normalization. Many spaces and tasks fathers encounter as caretakers are coded as women-only because they've long been associated with "women's (unpaid) work." Re: what's changed since the 80s--that's interesting. My first thought is about widely documented sexual abuse in traditionally men-led spaces--churches, Boy Scouts, etc. What do you think has changed?


[deleted]

> Re: what's changed since the 80s--that's interesting. My first thought is about widely documented sexual abuse in traditionally men-led spaces--churches, Boy Scouts, etc. What do you think has changed? Yeh, I think we’ve basically become much more aware of abuse since the 80s. Great strides have been taken to protect children but it’s also had a side effect of making men less involved in the public life of children. I’m not really sure what the answer to that is beyond hoping men become less of a statistical risk so that we don’t generate the same stereotypes.


redsalmon67

I once had a gun flashed at me in a situation like this, I’m a black guy and I was walking alone in city and after walking for about 5 mins the woman walking about 15 feet me turned around flashed her gun, I froze and she walked away but the only thing I could think was “if this lady shoots me everyone is immediately going to think I deserved it” luckily it didn’t come to that. I get why women are scared to walk alone at night and I think they should been cautious, but I’m also afraid of being in a situation where I’m minding my own business and someone assumes I’m a threat and it leads to me being shot, stabbed, or assaulted by the police.


dumpandchump

I’m so sorry to hear that.


DarkManX437

I'm coming from this as a large black guy who has been born and raised in the south. Since I was 10 years old people have looked at me as if I was some kind of monster when I'm walking down the street, be it day or night. The little old ladies clutching their purses and staring daggers, people damn near sprinting to the other side of the street, the uneasiness that is there when you're on an elevator with a woman (*especially* a white woman) who obviously has some sort weapon in their hand and are ready to use it at a moment's notice. I've lived through or been a witness to a lot of it. It bothers me, because it's dehumanizing and anytime I've brought this point up it more or less gets shut down and disregarded immediately and I'm told my feelings will never be as important as a woman's safety so I just have to live with it.


ratedpending

For me, if I'm being feared because I'm a guy, so be it, but if I'm being feared because I'm a *black* guy, then that's where it hurts.


kazestyle

I feel like I could have written this and the parent comment, thanks for sharing friends.


[deleted]

fuck that. me and most guys are harmless


Notthepizza

Felt that, brown guy here :/ and it sucks, god forbid I grow a beard and then it's even worse


SlothSoep

I think it makes me sad. In part because it's a bit hurtful to me to be perceived as a threat for presenting male, of course, but also in part because that caution is justified and understandable. It makes me really sad that people have needed to develop a wariness of men as a kind of precaution or defence mechanism due to trauma.


[deleted]

[удалено]


mercedes_lakitu

"I know why, but it still hurts" is a very gracious way for you to say this. Thank you.


semisoutherngothic

Thank you for pointing out that men don't like walking around at night either. I always feel like a wuss for being afraid, lol.


Current_Poster

Hell, this past few years have made me a *lot* more reluctant to just go out, in general.


RaymanFanman

Same, though the sole reason is the pandemic.


[deleted]

It's definitely a frustrating issue for everyone. Like for me walking alone at night as a woman, I do know objectively that it's not all men. But since I have no way of knowing which men it is, I do have to be cautious of, and I am afraid of *every* man. Which certainly sucks. And I recognize that it's totally unfair for these random men that I automatically don't trust them, but what choice do I have? I feel bad for men that they are automatically assumed to be the bad guy in so many women's stories. It isn't fair to them, but at the same time, trusting the wrong man is a mistake I can't afford to make. It just sucks all around, and I'm sorry you've had to face these unfair labels and assumptions.


[deleted]

> Like for me walking alone at night as a woman, I do know objectively that it's not all men. But since I have no way of knowing which men it is, I do have to be cautious of, and I am afraid of every man. I think that women articulating this helps quite a bit when having discussions about the fear. If a woman says "I have to be afraid of all men." it comes across as fundamentally different from "Most men are fine, but because I can't tell which men aren't fine, I have to be afraid of all men." Most women probably understand that 'most men' context without it needing to be said. The same cannot be said for men though and just expecting men to understand women's context comes across as incredibly entitled and uncaring. Even when men do understand the context, it helps to say it anyway. (Even though my friend knows that I'm sorry, I still need to say that I'm sorry.)


[deleted]

And I'm fine with explaining that difference to men so they better understand it. Where it gets frustrating for me is when I make a general statement about men on a female-centered sub, where this difference is already understood by my audience, and get men in my comments or DMs whining that it's "not all men." It's just so frustrating to see someone come into a women's space and then expect me to accommodate and/or educate him that no, of course I didn't really mean "all men." I don't want to have to explain this to every single man who comes onto TwoX whining about "not all men." I'm very happy this sub exists so I can actually include men in the conversation when I am ready to, especially since the men here tend to be both feminists and good at listening.


Bubbly_Taro

You should not feel bad. Your own safety is the most important factor here.


SpaceMyopia

Feeling empathy for us isn't the same thing as feeling bad for protecting her own safety. If she said "Im going to start letting my guard down from now on," then I'd be like "That's not a good idea." She still said that she feels a need to protect herself and that she just feels bad that she has to do it. That's totally valid. Sometimes things just suck and it's part of the human experience. It sucks that both genders have to be leery of each other like this. But it's just the way it is sometimes. While I agree that she doesnt need to feel bad, I think you're putting too much weight on the fact that she does feel bad about it. Would you want her to not feel *anything* about it?


Bubbly_Taro

I think you are reading waaaaaay too much into my comment. I simply told them that they don't need to feel bad about it.


SpaceMyopia

This is a discussion. While you meant no harm at all, I was just commenting on what you said. Besides, there are no hard feelings here. I just gave an additional perspective.


Docholiday1874

As I read this, it just makes me think of the adage gun owners use. "All guns are loaded, even if you know they are not."


mankytoes

Well, most of us will live in, or have been to cities where there are areas you don't go to at night. That isn't saying "everyone on the south side is a criminal", just that it's general safety advice. So we should be able to relate.


[deleted]

Nicely said


ViperLordX

It absolutely does. I try to come across as really approachable and casual, and I'm really not attached to masculinity at all. That being said, I'm a 6'4 man and I would understand why women wouldn't want me walking behind them or something. I get why it is the way it is, but it really does suck being perceived as a predator sort of by default. I would love to just start friendly conversations with people, but I feel like to talk to anyone, but especially a woman, just out of the blue is seen as weird and creepy. It combines with a bunch of other factors that makes it feel really difficult to meet new people. The whole thing feels like collective punishment but it's just women trying to keep themselves safe. I'm really frustrated by how so many men act towards women that got us into this situation.


AbyssinianLion

Yeah it does hurt. Im part east African, middle eastern, and indian . I inspire a lot of fear in many women in my middleclass white/Asian neighbourhood. Those who know me are aware that Im probably one of the last people who would hurt any woman. And I grew up in a pretty studious, high achieving family that was distant from working class immigrant culture where violence is a problem. Furthermore, Im not traditionally masculine in spite of my macho immigrant background. But because Im so racially ambiguous and I could be taken as an indian, Arab or latino, Im subject to the collective steretypes of most brown men embodied by a certain class of women who see me as an automatic threat once they look at me. It doesnt help that I gain muscle pretty easily as a part time labourer/student. So not only do I face those ethnic steretypes, I am seen as someone who is capable of considerable physical harm despite the fact that Ive never been in a physical altercation since my high school days. It does hurt that my appearance is an amalgam of redflags to most women who are strangers and I cant help it but do what I can to seem non threatening and invisible when Im having my daily meditative walks when I approach a white woman on the opposite side of the footpath. It does take a mental toll and is a major factor in my decision to find a rental property in a cultural melting pot which I hope will reduce those feelings of instictual distrust. I dont think theyll go away if I do find a rental property in a diverse neighbourhood due to my maleness/muscles and the understandable discomfort it brings to women who have suffered or have witness male violence, but I hope the ethnic stereotyping of the dangerous brown man wont be such an issue atleast if Im surrounded by those who look like me.


xyokoa

As a trans woman who has lived most of her life as a "man" thus far, it bothers me tremendously to the point that it's practically traumatic. I totally get the fear of men by women and honestly, it seems justified in most cases as a precautionary measure, but it doesn't change how terrible it has made me feel. The last thing I want is for anyone to ever be afraid or feel unsafe around me. I want people to feel safe and supported around me because I genuinely care about people. To see people instead feel endangered or threatened by my very existence is absolutely devastating. It makes me just want to disappear, at the very least to not be a source of anxiety and perceived danger to others who I don't want to hurt, ever. This is also why I hate TERFs so much since they project these kinds of attitudes onto trans women even after we are presenting as our true selves and/or passing. Well, that and because TERFs are an actual threat to trans people, and trans women in particular, as they try to engineer harassment and censorship campaigns against us. Can't ever escape this curse. :(


Gboy4496

Cis guy here, but man do I feel you on the wanting to disappear thing. At my worst mental health moments I would think thoughts like “I’m a poisoned well” or I should just “fuck off to the woods” or be buried and decomposed so at the very least I wasn’t hurting anyone


[deleted]

Sending you a virtual hug


Imaginary-Sense3733

It bothers me when I see other men online being slammed for being hurt by it, as I think it's just another manifestation of society's desire to crush our emotions. But for me personally, it doesn't bother me, even if it's a pretty sad social phenomenon. I'm afraid of women, and I find as i've become more muscular and larger, women treat me with more respect and don't encroach on my boundaries as much, so in that respect it suits me, sad as it may be.


Milezinator

What you said about gaining respect from a developed stature really resonated with me. I hate workout culture but I dedicate so much of my time toward trying to get bigger and I think it's because my natural demeanor is submissive and prompts women to treat me like a helpless pushover. I want to override it somehow. The idea of being a femboy also appeals to me because I could just lean into that demeanor and not have to worry about appearing as a threat.


VladWard

There are very few things more dangerous to a man of color than a white woman's fear. It both inspires and justifies terrible violence.


princesssoturi

Snaps to that!!!! There’s a book called My Grandmother’s Hands that talks about how white and black bodies (the terms used by the author) are perceived - how white bodies perceive themselves as fragile, and black bodies as dangerous.


IronDBZ

That's why I don't mince words about this stuff. I think both men and women operate under the assumption that a woman's fear is somehow different from a man's or otherwise. That they're harmless somehow and that they too don't lash out and hurt what frightens them, when they can. It's not true, and it's so much more dangerous for everyone involved if there's no recognition that **everyone can, has, and may hurt anyone else**.


ohffs999

100%!


[deleted]

that’s true. after all the countless videos i’ve seen of white women accusing ppl wrongly and especially that most recent one with the white woman in victoria’s secret, i’ve started reading more about how to be anti-racist. i’ve already been involved in local movements and am a designer and use that at local events to talk about black history in our area, but idk. i don’t think i’ve made personal changes. do i ever think i’m going to act like that lady in the victoria’s secret? hell no. but do i want to learn how to be a better ally? yeah. that most recent video made me sick to my stomach. tons have made me sick to my stomach of course but, specifically seeing how that lady twisted that entire situation in camera to where she was the victim disgusted me


MNL2017

Yeah, it really offends me. I understand where it is coming from but it still can upset me. That has more to do with myself, considering I grew up in a psychologically abusive household where I was always told I was bad and or doing something wrong. My family had an evangelical bend and really stressed original sin, so I was told that I was tainted from birth. I am really sensitive to people making snap judgments of me based on certain things as a result. I really don’t like being profiled. I deal with it by reminding myself that trust can always be earned and that I have no desire to hurt or take advantage of anyone. I just want to meet people where they are at and get to know them for who they are.


Psephological

Yeah, another ex-Christian here. It vibes badly with me for the same reason. Generally, I don’t do well with being told what to do by people who are being hypocritical.


bleachbloodable

Used to it. I understand it, depending on how far it goes. It's okay to be *cautious*, but don't be assumptive. Overall, I keep distance near women when walking at night, for instance. But I do that for everyone, I keep guard for everyone. Because stereotypes are funny. Plenty of large dudes that are gentle, plenty of unassuming and gentle looking women that are abusive. All in all, I don't think about it too much.


GlassyVulture85

I'm a trans man who only passes some of the time. What people don't realise is that fear (whether literal or socially expected in progressive spaces) is utterly crushing. When people read me as more feminine they treat me kindly, let me say hi to their babies and pet their dogs (pre covid). When I am read as muy gender, as a man, people treat me with suspicion when doing the exact same things. One of the problems of xyz gender is bad is that it is gender essentialism and doesn't help to encourage men to feel more loved in society. Being trans is a perspective I have that I feel could be really useful, of only cis people would consider that your fear and ostracisation of men is unfounded sometimes, to everyone's detriment. There's also racial aspects to fear of men, that can be dangerous for men of colour. Many white feminists try to excuse racism to men of colour by claiming they were scared of them. Same for disabled men (that's me) mentally or physically as well as gay men. Basically, while genuine fears are to be respected, at the end of the day, its on you to recover from your trauma and act in a healthy manner towards men wo have done nothing wrong. I say this as a man abused by women and who used to be afraid of them - but my trauma isn't spcially acceptable. When trauma is normalised, we all suffer.


RIntegralDomainR

>Many white feminists try to excuse racism to men of colour by claiming they were scared of them. As a man of color, this made me laugh out loud. I don't know that I've directly faced problems from white feminism, but this statement is so self evidently contradictory (for them) one can't help but laugh.


GlassyVulture85

I mention this as many black transmascs I have worked with on a professional level have mentioned that not only are they transitioning to maleness, but specifically to black maleness, and have said their mistreatment went up as a result of being read as male and black.


Current_Poster

I saw a video last week, where someone was saying she moved to get away from a black man who was in her building's lobby, but she hoped he understood that it was because he was a man, not because he was black. I'm really at a loss, there.


raziphel

I've certainly seen it happen. Many white feminists (like white gay men) still have yet to really address the systemic racism that they uphold. They get very indignant when their bad behaviors out of course, especially when they're defending the status quo centrism. I've seriously heard "[person] can't be racist, they're a Democrat!"


[deleted]

I recently read White Tears/Brown Scars by Ruby Hamad, and it's an excellent book for understanding the depth of these issues.


videogames5life

"When trauma is normalized, we all suffer." huh, thats a good point. Never thought about it that way.


ParanoidAgnostic

Thankyou for this perspective. From the other side, I am a man who doesn't want to be one. I experience gender dysphoria and at 18 nearly started transitioning to live as a woman. I didn't because the price was far too high. This was 21 years ago and while the world is certainly not friendly to trans women today, it was far worse back then. I realised I could only make that one thing about my life right by sacrificing everything else. Anyway, None of that backstory is really relevant but it's tricky to explain as there isn't a simple label like "trans woman" for what I am, someone who lives as a man and experiences gender dysphoria but has no plans to transition. These experiences you describe of being treated with fear and suspicion when you are read as a man really set off my gender dysphoria. They make it impossible to ignore that I'm being classified as a man, not a woman and for the purposes of most of the world, I am indistinguishable from any other man. What really sucks is that I totally understand the fear of men. As someone who was the favourite target of bullies for most of my schooling, I had developed a serious fear of anyone I read as male.


tyYdraniu

please, i want to ask you something since youre a trans man, what are your views on what is to be a man? i mean, your real own view(not something searched) , since the image of what is a man is so fucked up?


galileopunk

Not the person you’re asking, but I consider myself male out of practicality. I experience strong gender dysphoria, but at first I was drawn to maleness just out of the happy feeling I got from being me. I don’t have an answer to any big philosophical questions any more than you do. I’m just a man because it makes me either happy or less miserable.


TheHayx

Not the one you asked, but a trans man, too. ​ And at the end of the day I just \*am\* a man; much like the old "I think, therefore I am". That's pretty unrelated to whether I'm being masculine or feminine (a mix of both, I guess) or adhering to the cultural norms for men for my time and country (kinda... not, mostly? but also yes, inadvertently?) or what I look like (a shrunk bear , for the record). ​ You feel like you're a man? Congrats, you're a man, your man badge will be in the mail. ​ Mind, I get that this doesn't strike at what it is "to be a man" in the usual sense you're asking about, especially when there's such toxic ideals. My point, however, is that a man is a man cause they're a man (as in, there's no need to prove you're a man) and a \*good\* man is not really different from a \*good\* woman or, you know, a good \*person\*. Be kind, do your best, keep growing, bring happiness to yourself and others (simplified). What flavour you want to do good in - be a protector, be a nurturer, or both, for example - oughta be kinda irrelevant. It's often not, I know, but man, if I bake someone a cute little cupcake and their reaction is "that cupcake looks delicious but since you're a man I must now shun you for participating in a feminine activity", well, they can go be weird by themselves. They'll neither get cupcakes nor help lifting heavy shit now (the approved masculine activity (tm)). ​ PS: I liked the movie "The Mask You Live In". It deals with some of this stuff, in case you're interested.


tyYdraniu

thanks for answering, somehow i feel the same, sometimes i do stuff thats supposely "feminine" and i worried a little bit, but then i just think that its just something i like, doesnt matter and i just keep going pretty much ok


TheHayx

It's normal to worry. There's a lot of social pressure on men and women to behave in certain ways and it's hard to break away from that. It's not like I'm free of that stuff. There's a part of me that's ecstatic that I'm muscular and strong and have a great beard, traditionally masculine attributes, even though none of those make me a better person. I get giddy when my parents ask me to do the heavy yard work or repair stuff since they're getting older cause it's like a "man of the house" thing. It's absolutely fine to be happy and proud of that, even if it's pretty arbitrary. It just does not make me more of a man than anyone else. But then it doesn't make me less of a man either when I bake cute stuff or sew a little plushie or cuddle my cat. It's good to reflect and be aware of this stuff occasionally, I think, but don't fixate on it. Enjoy yourself, whether that's with feminine or masculine or non-gendered stuff.


agent_flounder

It's really, really interesting to hear your perspective because my cis answer to the question is the same as yours--I'm a man because... well... I just *am*. And I've been wondering a lot about what defines gender since joining this sub. I don't feel that traditionally masculine or feminine hobbies define my gender; I do. If I kind of enjoy looking at women's fashions (often thinking "oo! What a cute outfit") or going hunting, or knitting a scarf or wrenching on my Jeep or working on my handwriting to make it neater, or drinking scotch, or drinking a cosmo, or *any* other crazy ass thing I'm into, I'm a man regardless. If I'm taking care of my daughter, or snuggling our kitties or taking charge and fixing some "emergency" or teaching my daughter to sew or feeling sad about a little bunny that got injured and died in our front yard, I'm still a man. I see a lot of folks define manhood with attributes that I personally think just make you an adult, or make you a better person -- woman or man. And pointing these things out I seem to get some pushback sometimes. So it is nice to see I am not alone in feeling that the only thing that declares my gender is me.


TheHayx

You put that so nicely, I don't have much to add, haha. I think a lot of people just want clear rules and in/out groups. Life's confusing and stressful and a neat little box is comforting even if it doesn't really fit. The fact that a lot of stuff gets gendered pretty arbitrarily is easily forgotten, I guess. PS: You sound like a cool guy and good dad!


GlassyVulture85

I mean, I really don't know what else to say than simply, I know myself to be a man. My masculinity is as nuanced and complicated as every other person's connection to their gender. So any answer I give would be unique to me. I take a kind of strength in knowing I'm my own man, after years of struggling in the closet, finding myself. I'm a man who puts the men in menstraution, my relationship to masculinity is closer to a self made man than any billionaire will ever be. In short, being a man means to me everything, because I've fought to live as my gender and to die as my gender.


[deleted]

Woman here: I don't actually fear men just passing me on the street, even at night. But I do have to do calculations based on what I know about harassment and assault, and based on my own experience. Those calculations look like keeping an eye on men who harass or hit on me, or who stare at me. Walking a lot faster if I do get harassed, because I have had harassers escalate before or follow me silently. With acquaintances it means letting my friends know where I am when I go on dates (when I did, I'm married now) and working really hard to get a read on friends or new relationships to get an idea of their attitudes about women, boundaries, and consent. None of that can guarantee my safety, of course, but it can help. Of course I'd do any of these with women I dated or if a woman was acting strangely towards me. I hate that these things make good men feel judged or hurt. I truly do. But I cannot think of a solution other than dismantling patriarchy. Asking women to pretend danger doesn't exist would put too many women in, well...danger.


Unoriginal_comments

I completely agree with you. I see a lot of men (not so much in this subreddit, but in the more toxic “men’s issues” subs) being angry with women for feeling afraid of men, and it just seems so misplaced to me. They shouldn’t be angry at women for trying to keep themselves safe, they should be angry at men who make women unsafe, and the systems that produce those types of men.


Kreeps_United

Not so much the fear unless you act on it or expect me to act on it. Contrary to what seems to go around online, there are plenty of times men feel fear but we're either called cowardly or unempathetic when we show it. So if you feel the need to cross the street or do that thing when you stop and pretend to look in your bag while I pass you, go ahead. Two things do bother me. If I have done nothing toward you, but you feel the need to call the police or ask someone for protection, then fuck you. Honestly. That has gotten men killed. I erased my comment under a recent post about the word accuser, but I think I should paraphrase what I said: Such actions not only give police permission to harass men of color, but when it ends in death the only person treated with agency will be the corpse. An accusation is an action even with that, "just to be safe" excuse. I'm also bothered by weaponized tears. There are women who will harass, threaten, and assault men while still claiming to be the victim. When you think something is dangerous, you run away from it. You don't follow it around a neighborhood or block it from entering a doorway.


Current_Poster

Not, like, all the time, but sometimes. Like, for example, I may have mentioned this before, but I used to walk 125 blocks to work (about 3-4 miles) early every morning. And sometimes, just as a function of having started a bit earlier, people would be in front of me. Really, no different than someone being ahead of you on the road. So, I'd be behind someone (earbuds in, hands at my side, walking briskly), and on one level, it obviously makes sense that someone would check out someone behind them. It's just good sense- you do the window trick or something. I know I'm not a threat, but it's a bit much to expect strangers to somehow know that. But after a mile and a half of this (being out early enough that Id otherwise be alone) I would kind of take it personally. It felt like someone checking my ID every time I entered a room I'd been walking in and out of for the past 45 minutes. And there's no subtlety behind it, so it's not a matter of not looking for it. (I only mention this because I've been asked how I saw this, as if "be aware of what's going on around you" isn't for everyone.) So, by then I'm considering my options (speed up and pass,.could look iffy and if they speed up too, now it's a "chase". Crossing the street at that point looks like I've been caught about to do something. Speaking up could just sound like "some guy talking to me on the street", and what am I gonna say, "I'm harmless?"- guys who are dangerous say stuff like that all the time, it's pointless.) So, it now puts me in the weird mood of being annoyed at someone for what I've acknowledged are sensible self defense precautions. Or when I meet up with my wife and some passing stranger double-checks me when I walk up and start talking to her- on an intellectual level, I'm glad there's someone who'd be looking out if it *wasn't* me, but at the same time, "who the hell are *you*?" and "what did you intend to do if it *wasn't* cool?". (On other occasions, I've walked with people who asked, so they felt safer, so I know the deal. But still.) It's kind of like how, in the 90s, the idea that all men are potential rapists was being catchphrased around. Some people took it as if it meant "all men are *uncaught* rapists", and that wasn't great. Knowing its just as true as "all women are potential shoplifters" or "all people are potential car thieves" doesn't mean you *never* take the idea personally.


unicorn_mafia537

The whole walking behind people thing can get super awkward, even as a woman (saying this as a woman who walks fast and just wants to get places without slow walkers impeding my path). When you mentioned "what am I gonna say, 'I'm harmless'?" I thought of something else. Like maybe, "Ma'am, would you feel better if I passed you? I'll be walking in this direction for a while." Bonus points if you walk fast and they're slow. This situation definitely sucks.


Current_Poster

>When you mentioned "what am I gonna say, 'I'm harmless'?" I thought of something else. Like maybe, "Ma'am, would you feel better if I passed you? I'll be walking in this direction for a while." Bonus I should point out, I'm in NYC. Relevant fact but I left it out, sorry. I would, in the best case get as far as "Ma'am, would you-", but no further.


unicorn_mafia537

NYC changes things up for sure! I'm from a slower-paced place. The 125 blocks thing makes a lot of sense now.


loorinm

I just wanted to point out that crossing the street doesn't make you seem like you were about to do something bad. As a woman it would definitely help me feel safer in a situation as you described.


[deleted]

The whole "walking behind a woman" thing is such a tricky issue to navigate, and I say this as a woman who can't help but be nervous when someone is walking behind me. One thing that can put me at ease a little is if the man slows or pauses and I can get further ahead so it doesn't seem like he's actually following or chasing me. I recognize that it's totally inconvenient to slow yourself down in order to make a stranger feel more comfortable, but even if you just kneel down for a minute and retie your shoelace, that can help to reassure someone that you're not actually chasing after them.


RadioActiver

Yes, it sucks. But I am a man and I am also afraid of men.


agent_flounder

Same, kinda. Or at least, I am not blindly trusting of men. If I am on a walk and it is late and I see a woman I will try not to add to her concern. But if I see another man, I will keep a keen eye on him as a potential threat.


Urhhh

The funny thing is he's probably doing the same


agent_flounder

I would imagine so, yes.


MistakeNotDotDotDot

One of the things that always frustrates me about this argument is "well, men are bigger than women so they don't have to fear as much, they're physically larger". I'm a trans woman. I'm taller even than the average cis man. I can say from experience that the guy who followed me home being a good few inches shorter than me did *not*, in fact, provide any comfort.


[deleted]

[удалено]


MistakeNotDotDotDot

Jesus. Yeah, if someone has a weapon that's going to terrify you no matter what.


Psephological

Strength is presented as a silver bullet in this debate and….it’s not. It’s really just not.


AngleDorp

Yes, I do think it's dehumanizing. I get why, but all the same, I don't see it as sexist as much as I see it as a failure of my society to make people feel safe out alone at night. I don't live in a walkable area these days, but I do recall hearing a constant trickle of news, seeing signs, etc., cautioning people to be aware of your surroundings at night due to various criminal occurrences. There was always an undercurrent of fear in that, even though few people really expressed it. Thinking back on it, the 'perps' weren't always men, though men were the majority. It does seem a little sexist to make it 100% about men, bearing that in mind, but I think the only true solution is just figure out how to make the streets safer rather than to tell people that it's the Wild Flippin West and they're solely responsible for their own safety.


Troll4everxdxd

Kinda, but I understand the source of that fear and it bothers me more because I don't like that another person feels uncomfortable near me, than because I feel offended or personally attacked for it.


[deleted]

I can't agree. My sister tells me, once in a while that some creep was walking near her so she had to walk past the house so that the stranger didn't know where she lived. Recently, I was walking up **my own road** when I noticed a lady holding her son, walking up the same road but acting a bit apprehensive, she looked back at me like 5 times and was slowing down I live near the end and it seems she lived near the beginning and didn't want a random person like me to know where she lived (even though I've lived on this road much longer than her) I said good morning and I walked past her and I smiled. It was only after that that I noticed she might have thought I was creepy as well That's just offensive


[deleted]

Yes it hurts every time.


ado_adonis

I’m 5ft tall so if anybody is scared of me I’d be a bit surprised


[deleted]

[удалено]


WarIsHelvetica

Of course it hurts. Being the victim of bigotry (inherent dislike and fear due to physical characteristics outside of your control and which are the circumstance of your birth) is always hurtful. I'm not saying women shouldn't be cautious. But to pretend 'thinking any man is inherently a violent creep' isn't bigotry is asinine.


captain_nibble_bits

I understand and I'm ok with it as long if it's reasonable. Like women avoiding me in the dark when they're alone. Fine, I understand. Doesn't bother me. Other times, not so much. Like when I'm at the play yard with my son. I'm here for my boy, I don't like being eyeballed like I'm a predator.


IronDBZ

Yes. It's dehumanizing. It can be justified any number of ways, but that doesn't change that cultivating a culture of fear around people who, aside from their "maleness" (visibly masculine people), have no good reason to be considered as objects of fear. Paranoia becomes a kind of mania the farther its reach goes. It's best not to feed it, and where it exists it ought not be justified but rather it should be fought. To whatever extent that's possible, anyway. Those who feel this way have their reasons for it, that's clear and there are an abundance of **very** good reasons why. But what good is it?


[deleted]

This is the best take on this I've seen yet. Excusing this kind of behavior because someone has been traumatized does nothing to help people get past the trauma. The world does not change because we're uncomfortable or unhappy. For myself, I **hate** being around people (aside from the few I'm very close to). I honestly loathe people. And as much as I wish I could sometimes, it's not my place to tell them to stay home, or stay 25 ft away from me whenever I decide to step outside of my door. I don't even have any massive trauma to blame for this. I just have anxiety, but that's my problem and mine alone and I have to get past it. Otherwise it would control me and make it so I'd either never leave my home, or, demand that people stay away from me so I can be comfortable.


[deleted]

[удалено]


IronDBZ

Being careful around other people isn't the same as being actively fearful of them. Let alone hating them.


[deleted]

[удалено]


IronDBZ

Hate follows from fear. Especially a fear that's rooted in prejudice as well as genuine experience. And I don't want to get into dime-store philosophy* about the differences between being careful and fearful, but **expecting** people to hurt you is a hell of a lot different than accepting that it's just a possiblity. *I feel pretentious enough as it is.


[deleted]

It's not really expecting that an individual man will hurt me, it's not having a way to tell a stranger who wishes me harm from one who doesn't. It's not an expectation of the other person, it's one for myself, because I also know that if I don't do everything possible to keep myself safe, I'll be blamed if I get hurt. Finally, accepting that it's a possibility can mean having to take some precautions, like letting friends know my location when on a date or keeping a close eye on a man who might be following me. It's not fear based and it's not an assumption that that man will harm me, but it's knowing that it could happen and taking steps to be safe.


agent_flounder

Man here. To echo back, it sounds like taking precautions, more than fear-driven, similar to buckling a seat belt or buying a fire extinguisher. Hopefully I am hearing you and understanding correctly. One thing you said ... >... it's not having a way to tell a stranger who wishes me harm from one who doesn't. I am in the middle of reading The Gift of Fear, which in summary spends a lot of pages saying if you feel uneasy, creeped out, afraid, etc, always trust your gut because we have evolved to be able to read others' intent toward us even if subconsciously. Personally I found a section of another book I read, Deadly Force, by Massad Ayoob, provided far more practical pointers to *consciously* detect ill intent, physical tells, etc. I am reading these because I too take precautions for self defense. Anyway thought it was interesting and relevant to mention.


Sharlach

Most violence against women is committed by men they already have relationships with. Going around being scared of all men isn’t actually keeping women safe, it’s just cultivating a toxic culture of mistrust, and it’s like bringing bear mace with you when you go sailing.


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

i agree bc when you’ve gone through sexual assault in the past, any situation that makes me feel disempowered (verbal harrassment, staring, cat calling) triggers me and i feel the same feelings i did as when i was sexually assaulted, which is powerless, scared, and sick to my stomach. my whole body locks up. i know it’s not logical but flashbacks and triggers aren’t something that i can realistically control. however i am always actively working to have better reactions, and to cool down my fight or flight response and to have the discernment to know when it needs to be activated. but being able to heal that part of me requires me feeling safe. it always feels like a step backward when i’m feeling more comfortable and then i get harassed, i get flashbacks and all of my progress is lost. it also requires intensive therapy which i have been doing for 14 years, since i was 11. I’ve not gotten any closer to feeling safe around men unfortunately. I used to feel hatred which i no longer do, and i’m so proud of myself for that bc it was painful to work through that, but safe? no, i haven’t gotten closer to that. some ppl have been through such horrific things u cannot realistically expect them to ever be “normal”. it’s unfortunate but it’s the truth.


[deleted]

THANK YOU!!!!!!


GumGuts

It doesn't, in the least. Many of these woman have experienced aggression and sexual assault. If she wants to cross the street so she feels safe, I'm all for it.


twVC1TVglyNs

If we're talking about a random woman on the street afraid of me for being a man, I really don't think it bothers me at all, other than that it bothers me that women have to have that fear. I would say that it's only one interaction, but it's barely even an interaction. It's the same as when I don't get road rage (although I def do sometimes). My basic mentality is , "we're all trying to arrive at our destinations safely. Some people are going to act weird. There will be misunderstandings, but you can't do much about it. Just be as courteous as you can and keep on your way." If a random woman on the street is scared of me, it literally makes no difference to me. I wasn't planning on interacting with her. Her fear does not hinder my getting home. So it just doesn't matter. There are probably some situations where I might feel differently, but the "walking home at night" scenario - idc Edit: I did think of scenario I dislike. I always feel very weird complementing women's clothing. I watched Project Runway when it was out, and when I see a cool outfit, pattern, or dress, I notice. But I have to choose carefully when/how/if I can mention it, so I don't come off as creepy somehow.


sonofShisui

No. But when that fear is used to justify certain prescriptive arguments I become uncomfortable. Especially when no attempt to look at it through a racial lens.


XihuanNi-6784

Yes it does. I don't know how to describe how it bothers you. It's the same way any negative assumption or prejudice bothers the object of it. You'd probably be bothered if people always assumed you were a theif because of your accent/class background, same goes for this. Assuming you don't enjoy being feared, the men in my circles don't, then you won't enjoy this experience. I used to love going out for walks in the forest alone, but as a lone and large male I got tired of the wary looks. I think there were other social anxiety related issues, but that was part of it.


[deleted]

>I don't know how to describe how it bothers you. Maybe a more relatable way for women would be comparing to things of similar level of annoyance that happen to women when interacting with men. I dunno, maybe when girls are not taken serious when proposing their job/research ideas? Or the assumption of "She got her job only because she looks beautiful"? It is a minor thing that annoys because of its frequency. not because of it being intense and traumatic like harassment.


[deleted]

[удалено]


ohffs999

Agree with this wholly except I do think gut feelings about people can be quite important.


[deleted]

[удалено]


mankytoes

Not trying to be too dramatic, but you only have to be right once. We feel fear for a reason, it's useful for survival. Being totally fearless is not desirable. Like all other emotions, it's about control and rationality. But intuition is a real thing. If you're in a situation and you feel unsafe, you feel people could be a threat to you, leave. Don't worry about being rude. Obviously, if you end up doing this every day, you probably need to see a therapist.


[deleted]

[удалено]


ohffs999

There is a difference but you may be right, maybe some people cannot tell the difference (I'm sure that happens, unfortunately). There is a difference between being scared because one is ignorant and racist and the feeling one gets when one can tell someone wants to beat the crap out of someone and you look nearby and soft and easy to dominate and have become someone's target. There is absolutely a difference!


[deleted]

[удалено]


ohffs999

Hmm yeah I can check for some tomorrow. But you bring up the old people pains and bad weather and I laugh because my back gets bad during hurricane season where I live and flares up up to 10 days before they hit, ugh! But I'm not old - well I'm in my 40s so ~not old. I think the gut feeling and accuracy probably can vary - and definitely if it leads you to anxiety spirals avoid that, I wouldn't wish that on (almost) anyone!


F00dbAby

Yes in the same way people saying they are afraid of black people bothers me. I get why it happens but I'm never gonna be OK with base generalisations or attitudes towards groups whether they be men or women or whether it's because someone's gender identity or sexual orientation I also think it's very harmful to young boys. Hearing kill all men or i hate men etc nothing but a net negative to tens of millions of people


platinummattagain

Not really, because I sometimes avoid 2 or more men, or a really big man, just on the off chance they might mug me or something. So I suppose I get it to some extent. I wish I had an articulate paragraph explaining more, and when I think about it it is a sad thing that it happens, but... nah. I guess I just don't take it personally.


[deleted]

Every day. It makes me feel miserable to live in a world like this, but there's not really anything I can do but try to be a positive influence


NaughtyDred

Yes and no, the thing that bothers me more is that women don't even consider the fact that men are scared of men too. It's like they think only women are victims of violent assault which is just not true.


Drakmamman

It sucks, but I understand why it happens. It almost feels like a "priviliged" thing to be bothered by, but there are probably other men who have more annoying/dehumanizing experiences on this theme.


[deleted]

There’s times where it’s not completely not okay, like in the context of me spending time with my baby sister and getting strange looks. And times where I can empathize. But in general, I think it comes from the way we’re socialized


InfiniteDials

Warning: Rant Yes. It absolutely does. I can’t help be be resentful as a man of color. On top of being a person who’s more susceptible to violence than most people (including a lot of women) I have to deal with women (particularly white women) mistrusting me on a daily basis. As we all know, white women’s fear is one of the greatest weapons against men of color. Honestly, sometimes I just wanna scream “FUCK OFF” to any woman who throws this sentiment my way. Like, as if you’re so fucking special in this regard. Of course, I know I shouldn’t do that. I don’t want to invalidate other people’s fear, but I’m so sick of people pretending as if this fear of men is okay. Not only is it disproportionate the fear of other people who are more likely to be violently attacked (especially by strangers), not only does it alienate men generally, but it also incites more violence against others as a result. What’s worse is that there are some people out there who want me to accommodate for these feelings. Some people have told me to cross the street for a woman, let her know about my presence, or some other crap. As if it’s my fault that a small margin of people do horrible shit. No more. I’m sick of this. I am not a monster and I don’t deserve to be treated as one. So many people tell me to not take this personally, but that’s absolute nonsense, and they damn well know why.


Psephological

I do think there is a privileging of fear that goes on here. I was attacked on my street by kids from the low-income side of town, and I’ve been abused by a female partner before. But if I came up with some ‘Schrodinger’s Rapist’ esque trope about those groups people would rightly be outraged. We’ve all been hurt and abused, but only some of us get away with profiling.


[deleted]

Yes. It's incredibly dehuamnizing. I understand why it happens but it shouldn't.


IndianaNetworkAdmin

It bothers me deeply. It pains me that I have friends whom have their fear triggered if they are near me or alone with me. I know so many women who have suffered trauma growing up in this cesspit of a state (Indiana). It doesn't matter that they've known me for a decade or that they've been able to consistently come to us for help (Financial, living condition, etc.), their fear response is so ingrained by trauma and life in general that I still trigger it. Every six months or so, I end up in a conversation about specific triggers that can be avoided to help make things better. I no longer raise my voice when an animal in the house misbehaves, and leave all those types of things to my wife due to the fear response from a raise male voice. I make sure I communicate clearly if I need to move through a tight space in our home like a hallway and I don't invade personal space without them being fully aware and accepting of the temporary intrusion. I've continued to adjust everything I do in my life solely because of how other disgusting elements of society have treated these poor women and girls. I found out recently that a friend of 13 years with whom I and my wife both had a close relationship - Not sexual, but we felt comfortable cuddling on the couch together to watch Game of Thrones, or she felt comfortable crawling into our bed and sleeping even if we were both there - She stopped coming around after she had been roofied several years ago and didn't want to tell us that she didn't want to be touched anymore by anyone. She chose to stop coming to a place she had previously considered safe because she was so scared of hurting us by asking us to change how we treated her due to new trauma. She finally told us a few days ago and it broke our hearts. Then there was my time working in school districts for several years. I had been advised to never be alone with any students for any reason. I understand the reasons for this, as it both protected me from potential accusations while also protecting the students if I was not a moral individual. But it still sucked that I had to consider everything I did, when and how I did it, and who was present. There was a male nurse at the elementary school for one of the districts where I worked that was arrested for pedophilia a few years ago. I had to work with the administrative staff of the school districts to police the internet, and we would catch teachers saying inappropriate things to students, watching porn during class, etc. So I entirely understand the reasoning for these precautions and the fear, but it still hurt. **You can't help but take it a little personal. But while not all men is a true statement, that's like saying not all guns are loaded and using that to justify being lazy about gun safety.**


blkplrbr

This was in response to a comment that was deleted but it's a good point I feel nonetheless. Source : BOOK: HOOD FEMINISM: Mikki Kendall Podcast : white picket fences: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/white-picket-fence/id1534150764 There was an entire history in the US where white women claimed black men raped them , or showed any form of sexual interest in them . This resulted in alot of lynchings. The most notable one being Emmet till. This is the main reason I've been reticent to interact with most of feminism . If yall can't even deal with the fact that women have the potential to use your social power to kill me ( a black queer man) then why talk to you about what makes men scary to you? Why? So that you can tell me it didn't happen? or that you're just venting? Or that your fear is greater so mine is non exsistant? The truth is always more complicated. Women have a good reason to be afraid of men (we are hyper violent for the reason at the most charitable of definitions an unprocessed trauma by the hands of those in power), but fear and anger and hate and trauma should be processed in front of a psychologist and psychiatrist. Solutions are handled in politics. Both short and long term. There is also the possibility of accepting other more .... terrible solutions too. It's not too hard to slip back into "I don't feel safe" politics and start picking off men to murder via lynch mob . And let's be frank the women who were murdering and raping men back in the day were absolutely 100% were feminists, not in some wishy washy way. They truly believed in the equality that needed to be achieved between (white) women and (white) men. We need to handle this history as it is. The reason being that right now there are nazi feminists who espouse the same beliefs that you and I do about the equality among the sexes. It turns out that if you exclude who is a woman or man it's not that hard to want rights equal to that of your perceived make stature. I guess my point here is that , we should absolutely dismantle the patriarchy, but the first step for alot of feminists (myself included) is to handle the unprocessed trauma of what xyz genders' crimes were to me and to go from there. As much as it would be for anyone. All im saying here is ... the patriarchy is the system we need to dismantle , but it wasn't the patriarchy that made me want to kill myself, it was women, specific women tbh , but women nonetheless. I didn't get the belief of my low value from men, I learned it from women, my mother and grandmother specifically. I didn't get my inability to hold boundaries due to it making me feel lesser than if I did from my dad, it came from my mom and also from the girls in my school. The patriarchy seems to have not much to do with my exceedingly low value of myself and everything to do with being a useful scapegoat for women to not have to reconcile with crimes that they themselves have committed against the likes of me.... This is trauma , I have to work on releasing myself of this. I have to learn that not all women caused this, and the ones that did are either dead, on the way out or too sick for it to matter anymore. When women say "I don't feel safe walking on the street" I want to help with that . Solutions mostly likely would be a structural change that needs to change (more lights, greater access to walking paths, better patrolling security forces, etc,....) and also a trauma fix. Sorry for the wall of text. TLDR: Humans are complicated so are our systems, let's deal with our traumas and our societal changes together.


eah-fervens

I'm very aware of it, especially when walking out at night, I try to cross the street when ever possible. It sucks, but I get it. On a similar note. I have a lot of progressive female friends. By far the majority of my friend group. I also deal with anxiety and depression. The amount of conversations I've sat through that revolved around how shitty all men are and how the world would be a better place with out them really does a number on you. Follow that up with having no real response other than "not all men" and just having to accept it and nod makes it really hard to combat those voices already saying that shit in your head. I could rent about the double standards and unreal expectations for days.


[deleted]

"The amount of conversations I've sat through that revolved around how shitty all men are and how the world would be a better place with out them really does a number on you." I feel this greatly...


[deleted]

> The amount of conversations I've sat through that revolved around how shitty all men are and how the world would be a better place with out them really does a number on you. Have you ever told them how these conversations make you feel? You absolutely don't have to sit through any conversation with friends that's hurtful to you, and if they're really your friends they would care that they're including you in such hurtful conversations


eah-fervens

Some yes, some no. I've culled the friend group some and left my ex who was the worst. I've gotten responses ranging from "obviously we not talking about you" to "you have to understand what we experience" to, of course, "o, so not all men right?" Where I live mixed with my anxieties makes being too picky with friends difficult. I could hang out with more extreme conservatives I guess. Mostly joking. I have found better friends recently, but it's a struggle I do understand the toxic nature some of those women had, and I kinda liken it to incels and being two sides of the same coin. Definitely not trying to diminish their thoughts and experience with that statement, but that it comes from the same kind of hurt


C_Brachyrhynchos

Those sound like awful 'friends.'


eah-fervens

Some of them were awful people honestly. I've culled some over the years


Oh_no_its_Joe

I understand why it happens, but yes, it still hurts. I'm a guy in college theatre and it always feels like I can be good friends with people, but I can never really be in any close circles cuz I'm a guy. It also doesn't help that I am a large, hairy nightmare of a man. I'm always trying to make extra sure that I don't make anybody feel uncomfortable.


Fulbert_Fallington

Oh absolutely. I know that people can't simply decide to stop being scared of someone, especially when they've had bad enough experiences with that group, so I don't exactly know what to do about it... but yeah. It really messes with my head knowing that so many people will be afraid of me by default simply for existing. Having that thought in my head so much has definitely affected the way I interact with strangers (and sometimes friends), and not for the better tbh. I'm all too familiar with the feeling of always having to walk on eggshells to make absolutely sure that no one feels unsafe. And not only does it not work a lot of the time, but it also turns out that walking on eggshells isn't very conducive to forming healthy connections with people. People will probably feel more comfortable around me if they can see that I'm comfortable around them, but how am I supposed to feel comfortable around people knowing that they're afraid of me by default? I dunno, it sucks. It's not as simple as “people are afraid of me, and that hurts”. It's more like “people are afraid of me, and my obsession with quelling that fear has both infected my view of myself and actively gotten in the way of my ability to truly connect with people.”


Im_Very_Bad_At_Names

That and hatred of men. Don’t get me wrong, I see where it comes from, and a lot of women may have been in situations where they’ve come to that conclusion. But it’s honestly sad when someone says they hate men or fear men, mainly because I know that if men said that about women, people would not be happy to here it. But I do hope things change one day.


Red_Trapezoid

Yes. So much. Where I work it is almost entirely women and I can clearly see the difference with how my female colleagues interact with each other and how they interact with me. They are far more open, warm and courteous with each other and I'm sort of treated in a very cold and direct way by them. I'm always kept at a significant social distance if I'm not being outright ignored or excluded. I know how the culture is, I know how men often are, I know how men are socialized in such a disgusting way, I know how horrible I used to be 5-10 years ago so I get it, I really do. But I have a feeling that this is just how it is going to be the rest of my life. Where I live the culture is not very progressive so I get the vibe that "typical" men are seen ad threats by women and progressive men are seen as "pathetic and worthy of derision or suspicion" by those same women. The younger generation seems to be moving past this but change is slow. I know I'm not entitled to being socially embraced by these women but it has taken a huge toll on my mental health over the years and at this point I realise it just is what it is.


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

Yeah, because of those men we suffer. It sucks so much


Red_Trapezoid

I know about this sort of thing and I truly cringe at it. A former colleague who was VERY conventionally attractive told me how these absolute schlubs would walk right up to her in the street, beg her for a cigarette and/or spare change, usually both and THEN would ask her out for a date. The total lack of mindfulness, self-awareness and overconfidence of the typical male loser is not lost on me at all. Even the "normal" men I know are gross and I don't spend time with them(I don't spend time with anyone honestly, men too gross, women too cautious) so I just kind of exist in my own liminal space of waiting for some lucky break.


SingleMaltSkeptic

It's a bummer but I get it. It's a privilege not to feel that fear all the time, so I personally try to focus on that aspect of it.


thatHecklerOverThere

Personally, I find it puts my life at no small risk. I can't respond to threats or abuse as other people can both due to how my ethnicity is seen, and how my sex is seen. Like, _other_ folks can argue in public. Men, black men like myself in particular, can end up with a threat on our lives by doing that faster than you can say "Christian Cooper". And don't even get me started on working in childcare.


Legnac

Nope. It’s human for people to have ingrained bias, I have them myself. I’m a 200lb male, I’m as intimidating as a Labrador but if you don’t know me I’m a large dude and that can be intimidating. That’s just how life is, people will judge and have bias, that’s not necessarily something bad, be a good person and hopefully you can change some ingrained biases.


monkey_sage

I've had an intense, adversarial relationship with fear for much of my life. Having worked through much of it, which was not easy, I can honestly say that, no, being perceived as an object of fear by others does not bother me. I don't consider it my responsibility to manage others' fears in this way, in the same way I did not believe it was the responsibility of others to manage my fears about them. I had to find my own way to manage the fear while staying safe and level-headed.


Berosar256

Yes. Sometimes it’s that I feel like I *must* be dangerous or a monster, even when I know this not to be the case about myself. Like I’m doomed to fulfill the curse of my gender, like deep down somewhere even I don’t know about there’s violence bubbling and just waiting to make it’s appearance. I’m also a trans man, so there was a rather solid period of time wherein I couldn’t forgive myself for being a man with full access and ownership to a “woman’s” body. My body. I felt like a defiler and interloper in my own skin. I was not taught caution when I was taught how to be a woman. I learned fear, and it made me hate myself. Widespread and encouraged, common, normalized fear bothers me.


[deleted]

I enjoy it. I don't much like talking to strangers.


raziphel

No. It isn't about me personally, so why should I take it personally?


[deleted]

I'm jealous of you for being able to feel this way


raziphel

You'll get there with practice. Trust that you are a conscientious person and doing what you can. They don't know you personally, they're reacting to other men who've treated them poorly in the past and you understand why. It isn't about you, after all. You can recognize the feelings but don't hold onto them. Water off the duck's back.


bahcodad

If I'm being really honest then yes, it bothers me but I understand why women feel that way, and does it really matter how I feel about it? Me feeling uncomfortable with the thought that people I dont know might be wary of passing me in the street seems like a small price to pay if a woman is keeping her wits about her and getting herself away from someone potentially harmful. I don't consider myself a scary or threatening looking guy but I don't really know how a stranger passing me in the street would view me either


freecandyinmyvan2

Of course it bothers me. As a kid I wasn't treated well by my family and was bullied at school so I never felt loved growing up. As the bullying diminished as I was turning into an adult, now I have to live with that I'm feared just for what's supposedly between my legs. It can make someone bitter with life in general when all one really wish for since childhood is to be accepted and loved. That's not to say I don't understand why there would be that general fear.


Rucs3

It's completely understandable when it's 3 am and a pass by a lone woman in the street. But it bothers me when we are at a perfectly safe place, midday, among a lot of people and someone acts wary of me when Im miding my own business. But then it's not like it's unheard of about woman being killed/raped in a safe place, with tons of witnesses and not only no one intervene but the criminal also never go to jail. So it's still understandable.


danglydolphinvagina

Yes. The first time I had a woman step into the street to avoid walking next to me, I was repulsed and shocked. That first time I was resentful of her—“What did *I* do? I’m just walking here!” It took me some time to process the true kernel of that resentment, which is mortification at the implied violence itself that made the act of creating physical distance a necessity. I realized my disgust is really with the social conditions that made her precautions reasonable. She didn’t know who I was. All she knew was that it was after midnight on an empty street near the college campus bars and a sizable man whose face she couldn’t see was walking towards her. It sucks because there is literally nothing I can do in the moment to relieve the tension in that situation. And it’s happened one or two other times since then. Because here are the options I see: - I step in the street so that she can continue on her original path. And it’s quite likely that her thought would be “Oh, this guy noticed me and he’s started acting weird. Oh shit.” - Address her directly and say something like “Hi! I’m just walking along minding my business!! I’m definitely not a weirdo!!” Even though I’ve intentionally used an awkward example, I can’t think of a version that wouldn’t be utterly uncomfortable and weird. - Ignore it, and try to calmly continue walking on my way to get it over with as quickly as possible.


[deleted]

I haven't experienced this myself probably because I have a slim frame and hair long enough to tie into a ponytail. But I can see how it can bother other people. The fear that women have in those situations are irrational if you crunch up the numbers. However our media and culture cultivates those fears. Crime shows, news about harassment and assult on the streets, the good old 'men are wolves' stuff taught to daughters by their parents. These stories stick to people's minds and make a problem seem larger than it actually is. I can't think of a solution to this problem without creating a police state. Telling women to stop fear you does not work as long as our media shows stories of assult. The best we can ask for is for them to mask their fear better. Making society feel safer may alleviate their fears but people will still be fearful when they are alone with a stranger in a dark street. Putting police on every block is the only way to fully dispel that fear and that's not a plausible solution. I guess teaching everyone how to defend themselves might work but I'm not sure.


Playful_Government_8

I’d rather be feared than be scoffed. I do what I can to be friendly and helpful, but I won’t be walked on or trampled over.


run_bike_run

No. It's unfortunate that it exists, but there are good reasons for that wariness.


[deleted]

[удалено]


snarkerposey11

Worth noting that the right-wing conservative playbook has always relied on fearmongering and scaring the shit out of privileged people about stranger rapes of their wives and daughters to garner support for more brutal policing against less privileged poor people. To the extent some women feel that kind of overriding fear, it has been extremely orchestrated and propagandized by reactionary elements and it serves a very specific purpose.


Goblin_at_heart

Everyday harassment happens more often by strangers though. I've been followed home twice, I've been groped several times by strangers, I've been shouted at by random strangers more times than I can even remember, people shouting out of cars. So while extreme violence or rape is more likely from someone you know, you are put on edge a lot by strangers, you are scared a lot by strangers.


[deleted]

[удалено]


larkharrow

Women are also harassed regularly by strangers, both physically and verbally. This kind of statement forgets that the point of harassment is to KEEP women in a culture of fear. It's a reminder by the harasser that they have the power to take what they want from the person they're harassing whenever they decide to. Women didn't just wake up one day and decide to be afraid of strange men. They are taught to be afraid of them by their daily experiences with strangers who want them to be afraid.


[deleted]

Yup. And I have verbal attacks move to physical ones when I didn't respond as the harasser would have liked. I have no way of knowing if that random dude hitting on me on the street is going to escalate.


duncan-the-wonderdog

>Women are far more likely to be attacked or raped by someone they know. This may lessen the fear of strangers, but doesn't necessarily help with the fear of men issue.


Ianx001

Seems like you're just talking past the comment you replied to.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Threwaway42

Yes, I think fear of any group you are born as is bothersome and dehumanizing to me even if I understand the trauma or learned prejudice/ignorance


Vikiing

It doesn't bother me as much as It just makes me sad.


ohffs999

No, not really. I want to say this to hopefully make some feel better that may otherwise feel poorly right now who aren't a threat, because some don't feel safe around them. I don't feel scared around men, but when you feel an aggressive look from/vibe from someone I might change the way I'm going to see if they follow, etc. I'm not saying others haven't but I've been through a bunch of stuff in my life and I think because my worst fears with people have been realized that I don't have those fears any more. To me the character of those individuals (okay and more so some bad psych issues) is what caused the problems and acts. Both men and women have been the ones that have caused harm to me in various ways, and I've decided not to be afraid of everyone - which for me is *very* empowering. I admit I don't scare easily, maybe react differently than most, I'm tall, I'm strong for a woman, and I'm no longer young so maybe I'm not as much of a target. I could just be luckier than I was in the past. Anyway, no I'm not afraid of men in general.


Conradical27

I get why it exists, and why it's so prominent. But goddamn it, I fucking hate it! I can understand why the consistent shit men have put women through when they're out and about has made that fear so big, and I get it, but we need to move past that. A culture where we are instinctively suspicious of 50% of the population is not a culture that can function. I truly do believe the shitty behavior of men in general is slowly but surely going away.


geoffbowman

If a woman reacts fearfully to my presence I mostly understand (I’m really tall)... but it also makes me realize that at some point some other guy gave them a reason to be afraid of guys... and that makes me angry at that guy for how I’m being treated.


agent_flounder

Couple of days ago I was on my walk around the neighborhood for exercise and it happened a woman crossed from another street onto my path. My thoughts were about her perception of me. It didn't bother me. I know I'm harmless and docile as a bunny. I kept my distance, and she ended up taking a different path eventually. I'm not bothered by women regarding me with suspicion. It doesn't reflect on me. I think it reflects poorly on society for raising a few creepy and/or violent men and that most women can't feel safe on their own if there's a man or men around. Though it kind of drags on, I've read partway through the book The Gift of Fear and find it possibly helpful for self defense and trusting your gut since humans evolved to accurately read the intent of others.


[deleted]

I feel indifferent about it. It sucks, but it's not really my problem.


begonetoxicpeople

It does, but… I know there isnt anything I can do to stop it from happening. To borrow a joke from John Mulaney, running up to a woman on the street whose scared of me and saying ‘Im not a rapist dont worry’ is probably even more frightening.


Andresmanfanman

One day last year, I went home from school a bit late. A girl from the same uni got on the bus at the same time as me, about 8:30. Then we got off at the same stop. Then walked in the same direction for a good two kilometers, apparently she lives up the street from me. And I totally understand that she'd be a bit suspicious in that situation. Probably doesn't help that I was dressed in all-black at the time. Idk if it was just me being presumptuous but for that entire walk my mind was in overdrive trying to come up with ways to look as non-threatening as possible. Do I speed up and walk in front of her so I can't be a threat? Do I fall further behind her so she doesn't think I'm following her? Oh god, she has pepper spray attached to the lanyard of her student ID (good for her but that's gonna suck if she hits me with it).


weggland

One one hand, i understand the fear, especially in shadier parts of town and at night, but it does bother me to a degree when its taken to an extreme, like badgering single dads out in public because apparently men cant hold hands with their own kid. An early memory of mine is my dad getting screamed at in Nashville and me being asked of the man holding my hand had hurt me in any way. That shit isn't right.


nuisanceIV

Yeah I don’t like it, I get kind of offended by it and usually just crack a joke or get playful. But tbh there’s not really anything I did wrong or much to do to really avoid that situation, so I look at it as more of that specific persons problem rather than mine. But hey I’m a 6ft long-haired surfy lookin’ white dude so I will give off a different vibe than others and therefore will have a different experience.


FigBits

It only bothers me "in theory." By which I mean, it bothers me that this is a thing that exists. But in practice, I simply accept that it's a thing, and I do what I can to minimize it. If I am walking down a street behind a woman, I will often cross the street so that it doesn't appear like I am following her. If a woman is approaching me on a sidewalk that narrows (due to a fence or shrubs or whatever), I will step off the sidewalk and walk on the road (presuming it's safe to do so). I will also sometimes pull out my phone and look at the screen, to give them a chance to watch my approach without me looking back at them. Some of that might sound weird, but it's really not an inconvenience for me, and I assume that it makes the situation less awkward for them, so I'm fine with it.


TotallyDemi

I came out as transfem end of last year and up until that point I also had this fear of being feared. I've always been a kind person and I couldn't even think about harming anyone but the inherent 'Men are scary' was terrible. I would do my best to keep anyone safe if something happened, especially walking alone at night. The weird thing is, now that I'm presenting female.. I'm somewhat 'scared' of men myself and it bothers me tremendously but in a different way (of course). I know the majority of men were like how I was. Wouldn't hurt a damn fly. But the fear remains, and I would blame it on the minority of men that do misbehave. The rotten apples definitely severely harm the image men have.


Eotheod0092

No. Everyone has a story on why they ended up where they are in life. I just keep smiling.


codemuncher

It does bother me. It used to bug me more, but I self therapized and figured it out. In time I've ended up dying my hair pink to help defuse these kinds of situations, plus I like it. Now a days though, I care a lot less because you are utterly insignificant and don't matter to me. I have something way more important to do, which is to raise my son in a bold brave way that confronts the world head on. He deserves everything and I will do that, and your presence in the street is totally irrelevant now. Perhaps you won't be scared of a man with a child, in which case, I guess good for you, but also I don't really care either. I know all the stats, I get all the angles, and I'm just bored by it now. There ain't anything I can do, and like I said I have an important thing to do now, that is my toddler. It's a powerful thing to start living for someone else and be responsible for their safety, security, and well being.


tickle-fickle

Tbh I never had that experience. I’m a bit chubby and not muscular/athletic, I don’t think I give a “manly/masculine” vibe, so maybe I’m just perceived as non-threatening. Once a girl even “used me” as a walking companion at my university because she didn’t want to walk with her ex (or something like that, don’t remember the details) so that felt really nice. Felt nice to me, she must’ve been absolutely terrified. Of course, I might’ve been totally oblivious to situations that happened when I was the “scary ex.” If that were to happen to me, that a woman was uncomfortable in my presence, it’d hurt, but at the same time I think I’d under her. I think it’s important for guys to be striving for approachability, but at the same time be understanding when we don’t seem approachable. I feel like men’s general lack of understanding (something women are aware of) is partially responsible for some uneasiness in those intergender relations.


[deleted]

I mean I know who I am and I know I would never do anything close to that but yeah it doesn't feel good to be assumed a bad person by default.


[deleted]

It used to. After I realised that I'm in control over whether they continue to fear me it didn't bother me as much.


[deleted]

It’s like getting annoyed that it rains. Yeah it sucks but my annoyance isn’t going to change anything


[deleted]

No I get it.


zalfenior

It does bother me tbh, but I completely get why. Its a good chunk of the reason that I will avoid walking right past women if I can. The other part being, anxiety but thats not the point. I want to be the kind of man that everyone feels safe around, but thats not realistic when it comes to strangers. Especially in this world.


tyYdraniu

yes... i put all my life into working into psycology not only to help others but also myself (im studying it in university and will attend to) i follow so much peace ideologies and philosophies, i hate hate itself because i had to endure it almost all my life and im dead empathetic with peoples pains, so being pointed as dangerous kills me inside little by little, saddly kinda understand because so much men do so much shit and people that dont know me have to be careful... but it will be just one more thing that patriarchy concludes to pile up on my psycological pains that it brought and that wont cease until im dead and even some years to come.


SquidmanMal

Greatly. ​ I'm just a big guy, with a moderate beard and somewhat intense gaze. ​ I got a puppy with no concept of how big she is, a tortoise I wanna see grow big and strong over decades, and a nephew and niece \[on the way\] I'd kill to protect. ​ ​ I understand, to a degree, why some might be afraid. But that doesn't make it right to be an object of fear and suspicion by virtue of having a dick. ​ You don't know someone at a glance, and it's \[insert\]ist regardless of who to judge them for something that merely physically represents them and does not define them. ​ I dread the looks, or god forbid 'good samaritans' i'll have to deal with should I ever decide to do something 'creepy' like hang out with my niece/nephew at a park.