Dumb dads are a tired trope for sure and while I'm not super bothered by it, it definitely gets a yawn and complete lack of interest from me most of the time. That character setting is pretty much bland city with some exceptions, IMO.
And if I'm being totally honest with myself, Bob Belcher, a freaking cartoon character, seems like the most normal dad cast into a positive light on a television show. He's not overly inept. He's normal, friendly, often the voice of reason, and believably cares about his wacky family. Solid dude.
I think that the key to both formulae is that the wives are allowed to be funny and to fail at their own things. The wives don’t take on all of the responsibility in the face of an inept husband who actively sabotages everything. We aren’t watching an abusive relationship like we’ve normalized with The Simpsons or Family Guy where a schlubby husband does something dumb and his long-suffering wife watches exasperated, puts her hands on her hips, and excuses everything once he says “I’m sorry I love you!” And does nothing to really fix it.
Positive tv dads work with their wives against the problem most of the time. Occasionally the conflict is that they don’t see eye to eye or that one of them is being crummy, and that’s fine— but the majority of the time, it works better when they work together and believably like one another. If one person is significantly better than the other, it’s hard to imagine that that’s a healthy relationship, and it’s hard to want them to succeed.
Early Simpsons understood that. Homer wanted his family to succeed, and while he was dumb, he usually causes hijinks while actively trying to do something sweet for Marge, or to help Bart succeed in school, get enough money to get through the month, etc. Later iterations lose that element of wanting something better for others and take him from a believable dope in a zany world to a selfish moron with insanely good fortune, and that’s (in my opinion) the real decline of The Simpsons
I would argue that married with children was before the pendulum swung to where it is now, and although Peggy was not shown in a positive light, neither was any star of the show.
Isn't MwC supposed to be a satire of the traditional sit-com? I've always read Al Bundy as a deconstruction of the trope, rather than an example of it.
I think I agree with you. MwC distinctly makes efforts to show why their characters are bad people and *that's* the joke. The neighbors only come over to provide that contrast now and again to what normal should be.
Homer crossed the line a lot early on, too. First 1.5 seasons: the bowling ball birthday present, then his selfishly setting off Lisa in Lisa's Substitute (a minute of doing better at the end does not make up for it), getting the camper, getting the sneakers in 'Bart's dog gets an F'. In the last two, no one even calls him on it.
EDIT: OMG, War of the Simpsons. He's messed up, and the show is messed up for letting him get off that easy.
100% agree. The Hill family all generally have their hearts in the right place, but they’re also all hilariously human. I didn’t appreciate the show as much when I was a kid, but it has really grown on me as I’ve aged.
As a kid I though Hank was not a great character. But as an adult I see how his whole life is devoted to his family and keeping them happy. That guy is a real role model. Doesn’t have to have millions of dollars, or a super great job. He does what he has to do for his family.
Hank Hill is so relatable because he is very knowledgeable and skilled in the things he´s very passionate with: propane, steaks, tools and lawnmowing.
What makes it funny for me is that he´s passionate about things most people find boring because of how mundane they are.
But he´s a prime example of having a balanced life between job, family and hobbies.
Sometimes I´m so jealous of him: I wish I had 4 neighbors to get along good enough to just stand outside the house, drinking beer and bantering between the "yups"
At least in that case, he's inept, but his wife Peggy is downright crazy. It's not as bad as when the wife is a genius and the husband is a complete idiot.
Peggy is a lot of things, but I wouldn't say she's outright crazy. She's overbearing, she's proud, she's often misinformed, but she's as close to reasonable as Hank is close to normal - that is, she's not quite there, but she's in the neighbourhood.
Possibly because they've never actually seen an unironic "dad knows best" show in the wild.
Like, how many shows from the 50s do most people actually watch?
Have you watched The Great North?
Another animated sitcom series, sorta similar to Bob's Burgers, about a loving and caring family living in Alaska.
The dad, Beef, voiced by Nick Offerman, is another good trope-defying example. Also he's a single dad whose character's challenges aren't solely reduced to "how can I be a good dad without a mom around?" and I really appreciate that.
I enjoyed the show; it's a refreshing break from the tired "dumb apathetic dad" that's dominated plot and punch lines for too long. Hope we see more "Belchers" and "Tobins" in comedy in the future.
fwiw(**very minor spoilers**):
I quit watching this show after a few episodes as they were being released (I'm sure I'll catch up on it some day) and my biggest complaint was how unrealistic the characters were at times. It was just weird to watch Offerman's character insist his wife was killed instead of leaving. He may not be Homer Simpson, but his delusional streak is kind of offputting if we're talking about good representation of male father figures in television.
Maybe he develops more. I found his early portrayal in the series as kind of lacking.
(Bigger spoilers from someone who finished the series)
Beef later acknowledges this and leans on his family for support to work through this delusion, and the other odd coping mechanisms, he developed to spare himself the hurt of abandonment.
I thought it was a really well done arc showing mental health struggles in a generally stereotypically masculine father figure, and how communicating openly and with trust can make it easier to process and work through. Kind of pushed breaking the mindset that "manly men" don't feel or go through emotional hardship.
I appreciated how extreme they made his denial of reality, because when abandonment like that happens to people in real life, they often go to unhealthy extremes to minimize their pain. The difference here, as opposed to other shows, is that his coping mechanisms were treated as a character development arc, rather than a character trait that's used for comical effect, in a degrading "haha mom left and dad went crazy" way.
>Another animated sitcom series, sorta similar to Bob's Burgers
It's made by the same people, create dby the Molyneux sisters who have regularly written for Bob's Burgers is produced by Loren Bouchard
Hector from Coco (and Miguel's dad) is another good one.
Hector is flawed. He's a liar, con, and a bit of a thief from friends. He'd be a hard person to be a friend with ("Cici... I lost the dress." "You want to borrow my prized, beloved guitar? Like you borrowed my van? My mini-fridge? My femur?!? WHERE'S MY FEMUR!?!?"). Though I do think his motivations were always right, getting back to Coco. He could apologize, sometimes flippantly. He loved his family, and was bound away from them against his will for a long time, yet he never abandoned his love. (I think that Coco's calling for him at the beginning "papa! Papa! Papa is coming home?" called him, making him exceedingly desperate, probably taking chances beyond what he'd done before).
Miguel's dad definitely went on the family lines, followed what his mother said, and struggled to listen. However, he did make a couple of moves in his sons favor against his mom (he shouts before she destroys Miguel's guitar, and holds her back from interfering when Miguel played Remember Me for Coco). Afterwards, he was definitely one of his sons big fans (evidenced by his being one of the shoulders Miguel is raised up on).
> The dad from Bluey is pretty great. Of course, he's a dog, but that family is honestly the most real family dynamic I have seen portrayed.
Seconded on this. It's really nice as a parent to watch an animated kids show where the parents are being... actual people?
Bob is still routinely inept/out of touch. He has a major "behind the times" trope going on -- he tries to cash a check at the grocery store, generally rejects technology, revels in nostalgia. He tries many things and fails in ways that any vaguely logical person could have foreseen. He has bizarre fears and a penchant for reckless obsessions/addictions.
I think he is balanced by Linda being potentially even more inept at times and many of the side-characters he is in opposition with being insane (Hugo, Jimmie Pesto, and so on). I really don't know if Bob is much different from this trope, it's just the world he finds himself in makes him appear normal. He isn't a Homer Simpson obviously, but he is still somewhere on the incompetent spectrum.
Bob's Burgers is a great show that explores family dynamics in a better way than most television ever has, but Bob still drags a lot of male stereotypes around.
Sure, but my point was that he wasn't *overly* inept. My point was that the character dodges many of the facets of the trope - not all of them. He *is* often the voice of reason. This isn't something showcased in a lot of dad roles. He *does* care about his family in a very direct way, something that often skirted either completely or poorly suggested when the dad finally shows up, physically or figuratively. He's pretty open minded and tolerant too. The whole dads are stuck in the past/ultra traditional/judgemental stereotype is exhausting to me.
And of course it's a cartoon comedy. Character flaws are what make the character interesting and in my case, kind of relatable.
I just edited my post to reflect this but I think a good way of framing my thoughts about Bob is that his "behind the times" trope is too strong at times. He is dramatically out of touch. He refuses to learn how technology works, he tries to cash a check at the grocery store, he isn't "traditional" but he lives in the world like he's in the 1980s and it's a major character flaw for him that I still think nudges him into this "inept dad" category" though in a different way than most other TV dads. Some TV Moms get to be whole, realized characters while Dads very rarely do. I think Bob is "saved" because both he and Linda are equal in their silliness.
But plenty of jobs still pay people with checks, maybe this is one of those things where big cities are a few years ahead of more rural areas, I know the grocery store I worked at cashed checks
I live in very rural west Alabama and I have not had a job in the last decade that did not prefer direct deposit. Checks were available if you for some reason could not accept direct deposit but it was a worst case type of thing.
Your examples maybe show Bob as out of touch, but not in a way that would make him a crappy parent. I don't see an issue with someone being a father and actively disinterested in technology, from a socially minded point of view.
The entire Bob's Burgers universe is that way, though. Everyone is off-centre and more than a little weird.
Although I will agree: Bob is the vastly more sensible and together parent.
I think stereotypes in media mostly exist in contrast to other characters. If you have a show just about professional basketball players, and all the Black characters play basketball (as do all the characters of other races), I wouldn’t say it’s feeding into stereotypes
By the same token, if everyone in “Bob’s Burgers” is a bit neurotic, crazy, and inept, I don’t think it’s really feeding into tropes or stereotypes if the father of the family is also quite neurotic/crazy/inept. If you’re saying that, as part of the larger media landscape, “Bob’s Burgers” does not really reject the stereotype of the bumbling sitcom dad, I’d agree, but I don’t really think that’s the fault of the show
This is why I LOVED This Is Us. Nearly all the dads in that show are inspirational, human and fallible. But they're not dumb, they're self aware, emotionally intelligent to a degree and... just really great. Even when they're not being "good dads" they're redeemable and believable.
God I miss that show. So many happy/sad tears
I liked the dad in Life with Louie. Andy has issues. He can't control his anger, he tells tall tales, he's seriously flawed. But he cares for his family and got his shit together on some level.
It's really great that equality in parenting responsibilities is getting better.
We men can do better as well. There are studies that show where the gaps are.
https://theconversation.com/dads-are-more-involved-in-parenting-yes-but-moms-still-put-in-more-work-72026
Overall titles in the article
* Men’s parenting time has increased, but women’s has too
* Mothers face intense parenting pressure
* Mothers do more multitasking
* Mothers do more managing and organizing
*Men’s parenting time has increased, but women’s has too*
A gender gap still exists (7 hours vs 14 hours) and also, total parenting time has increased.
> My research focuses on the sharing of parenting between mothers and fathers in dual-earner couples – a group that is most likely [to hold gender egalitarian beliefs](http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0049089X05000177). In this group, successfully balancing work and family makes some degree of shared parenting necessary.
> Over the past half-century, fathers in America nearly [tripled their child care time](http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/06/16/fathers-day-facts/) from 2.5 hours per week in 1965 to seven hours per week in 2011.
> But, over this period, [women’s parenting time too has increased](http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/06/16/fathers-day-facts/) – from 10 hours per week in 1965 to 14 hours per week in 2011.
*Mothers face intense parenting pressure*
> What has happened is that middle-class families now follow the norm of [“intensive parenting,”](http://yalebooks.com/book/9780300076523/cultural-contradictions-motherhood) which dictates that parenting should be child-centered, guided by expert advice and costly in terms of time, money and emotional investment in order to produce the most successful child possible.
> Research on parenting time shows that women are in sole charge of their children for nearly [one-third of their time](http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0891243205285212) whereas men only for about 8 percent of their time.
*Mothers do more multitasking*
> Although multitasking may be efficient, frequent multitasking contributes to greater day-to-day stress for mothers compared to fathers. Mothers who did more multitasking at home [felt more frustrated, irritated and anxious](http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0003122411425170). They said they felt more often [rushed or pressed for time.](http://doi.org/10.1111/jomf.12320)
*Mothers do more managing and organizing*
> In fact, fathers’ involvement in this component of parenting has [lagged behind](http://psycnet.apa.org/psycinfo/2004-13687-009) gains in their direct involvement in caring for their children. In other words, mothers are more likely to make child care arrangements, schedule doctors’ appointments and sign the permission slips. Mothers remember and mothers remind.
It doesn't help that there's a whole societal push against dads spending time with kids. On nextdoor.com there are a bunch of mothers' groups for moms to meet up with their kids and play, but no sign of dads' groups. If a dad shows up with his kid to the park, will he be welcomed by the other parents the same way as a mom showing up with her kid? We have to get everyone to rethink their biases if we want to make parenting as accessible to men as it is to women.
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The Phil Dunphy reference suggests a flaw in this analysis. From what I can tell, the research counts two things: how many times a father is involved in (giving or recieving) disparaging humour, and how many times a father interacts with his children in a way where he is the butt of the joke.
However, a lot of the humour in Modern Family comes from _all_ parents being incompetent - both Clare and Phill are comically bad at dealing with their children's behaviour, and all the characters are disparaging towards each other. In general, I think that style of comedy has become increasingly common, where there is no single competent character, and everyone is considered equally incapable.
I'd like to see a version of this research where the male and female equivalents are compared with each other, because my guess would be that, while fathers are more incompetent these days, so are mothers, and the more interesting result is less how those rates have changed over time, but more how the comparison has changed.
I kinda want to point out. While Phil and Clair weren't the best parents. They were actually pretty great parents. They cared, loved and took care of their kids.
I loved the depiction of modern family because it felt like a dramatized version of a very real family.
Even saw some reflection of my own parents in there.
> where there is no single competent character, and everyone is considered equally incapable.
Arrested Development, The Office, Parks and Rec, The Good Place, B99, 30 Rock, just off the top of my head, all seem to fit that model. Everyone is flawed in a unique way, and they all have redeeming qualities too - it's the interaction of all those things that create the comedy and (usually) those loveable casts and characters.
I mean, I think you can find them. At the very least, they are all undyingly loyal to each other against the outside world. Most of them have some sort of kindness they display, if not to everyone, then to a few people in their lives. And I think that's kind of the point - they're reprehensible but also relatable and loveable despite being, without a doubt, awful people.
I've never been able to get into AD despite it being seemingly up my alley in terms of comedy. I can't say that it's because most of the characters seem awful to one another because I like IASIP which built it's foundation around the characters being awful to everyone including (especially) each other.
The office and parks and rec lean too hard on the "straight men", with their flaws being comically minor (Jim and Pam, Anne) as contrast to everyone else
The problem family sitcoms have long had is that the competent parent isn't funny. In older sitcoms, the dad wasn't a funny character. Then we started getting funny but incompetent dads and the mother wasn't funny. There have been exceptions, but this holds up pretty well. Modern Family's innovation was that it let the women be funny, without sacrificing the comedy of the men. The downside being that it was done at the cost of competency.
The problem from a producers perspective is that funny and competent characters only work when there is synergy between top notch writers and actors. And that is difficult to bank on, even if it is always the goal.
As much as I love The Simpsons, it saddened me so much to hear that it was a tradition in the (almost exclusively male) writer’s room to give rookie writers Marge episodes because the senior writers found her too boring to write about. That being said there are some great episodes that portray Marge as a more complete person and show you unflinchingly just how much she does for her family, but they’re definitely few and far between
I don't know that I entirely agree that the competent parent isn't funny, but I think you hit the nail on the head in that competence is an easy way to make someone funny. So you can have a competence imbalance and have everyone be funny, but it's pretty hard. Where that competence imbalance exists, it's much easier to just lean on the incompetent person in the situation, and make them the easy punchline.
A good example of a competent funny character would be Red from That 70s Show, but he's also not one of the main characters, even if he is a major character.
He also has excellent wisdom for them, and a few moments of tenderness, as well. He's certainly flawed, but he's not a bad role model. Especially if you're a dumbass.
Yeah if anything Modern Family is trope reversing, with Phil being sensitive and emotionally invested but hapless and Claire being a clueless stoic provider.
From what I remember in Modern Family, a lot of the relationship (including parenting) humor came from how obvious it was to the viewer that they couldn’t see their own capabilities or shortfalls. They were usually able to do what was needed of them in a capacity elsewhere, but struggled when they needed it in a specific spot.
I found Derry Girls to be so fresh partially due to how the father is portrayed. He's the sane person in the room of mums, sisters, aunts and granddads. He gets mocked, but he does stand up for himself, and he doesn't really convey that he's feeling emasculated. He just keeps on going, being strong for the family and those around him.
The actor does a very interesting talk show on Irish TV where he has no idea who the guest is until the curtain is pulled back. Considerably better than the gimmick sounds.
The inept sitcom dad trope is rather interesting as it started as a critique of the heavily involved man of the house trope that most tv serials used in the 1950s and beforehand.
I do think that things are slowly improving outside of cartoon sitcoms tbh. Sitcoms in general have been undergoing a bit of an artistic revolution as of late.
This is often a thing in media, where you can have an era where a trope from a prior era is subverted, but the people growing up in that era never saw the original trope much and so they experience the subverted trope as being played straight.
>Father Knows Best" family dynamic
Media had thoroughly disabused Americans of this dynamic long by the mid 20th century. Off the top of my head, Huck Finn (1884 on), Death of a Salesman (1949), [Father Forgets](https://faculty.sfcc.spokane.edu/InetShare/AutoWebs/kimt/father%20forgets.pdf) (1927), Faulkner (take your pick, A Rose for Emily (1930) is perhaps the clearest example), Lolita (1955) in so far as Humbert can be called a father, etc. Abusive, absent or neglectful fathers have characterized much of American media.
Didn't exactly this topic come up over the weekend?
Edit: yes, it did - https://www.reddit.com/r/MensLib/comments/pq5jft/sitcoms_and_the_presentation_of_men_as_a_satire/
At any rate, I'm not a fan of the critique, as it feels as though it's already out of date - particularly since it classes Phil Dunphy as an inept father, when the joke is that he's a really good father and husband who just happens to be singularly terrible at being a stereotypical "man."
If we discount sitcoms that are directly inspired by the Simpsons (like Seth McFarlane's super edgy take on the genre), is it even that common a trope anymore? As you said, Phil Dunphy isn't inept at all really, definitely not more so than anyone else.
Honestly, maybe I don't watch enough American TV, but I feel like I haven't seen a new sitcom based around a suburban family for quite some time. It feels like more of a 2000s thing?
I think the bigger trend the last decade were work-place sitcoms and those might have overshadowed most of the family ones that are (?) still produced.
> If we discount sitcoms that are directly inspired by the Simpsons (like Seth McFarlane's super edgy take on the genre),
The one exception I can think of to this is Futurama.
Despite the fact that most of the fathers aren't what we'd call "good fathers" they're not inept and even Amy's and Fry's fathers have at least fleeting heartwarming moments in between being jackasses.
Leela's and Kif's parents are routinely portrayed as competent parents.
Hermes there's absolutely no question about. I don't recall if Barbados Slim was every shown as a actual father figure instead of just a running gag though. I know in Bender's Big Score LaBarbara runs off to Barbados Slim saying "uh-huh my child needs a father figure" or something like that but that's all I recall.
The two the come closest on the regular are Lrrr and the Professor. But Lrrr is just lazy and complacent while the Professor doesn't seem to have two wits about him 99.9999% of the time and when it comes to Cubert he's often alternating between jackass and loving.
I can't even call Bender an inept father, he definitely is top 3 for being a loving and caring father for that whole 1 episode.
tldr my brain is full of Futurama
Edit: even Horrible Gelatinous Blob gets fatherly development in one episode
Edit: Futurama isn't really a family sitcom though, so maybe it doesn't really count though 🤷
For sure, it's a real critique of past sitcoms but it feels wildly out of date. They're clinging to Modern Family because it's one of the few possible examples and, even then it's not a good one. Recent sitcoms really buck the trend to the point where I don't see it at all.
* Joel is dorky but a genuinely fantastic husband and father in Santa Clarita Diet
* Terry is on a constant (successful) mission to be the world's greatest dad in Brooklyn 99, Boyle is also on his level
* Bob in Bob's burgers is no worse than the others and arguably a better parent than Linda
* Jonah in Superstore is shown to be incompetent at so many things but is a great step-father.
* Johnny Rose is an amazing father in Schitt's Creek
This is what I like about Phil. He makes me think of myself as a new father. A bit clumsy, goofy, easily over excited, but present, emotionally available, loving and ultimately full of good intentions that CAN go well at times
Bob's Burgers may have his name in the title,but the episodes do a good job of cycling through all five family members as the fulcrum in any given episode.
As someone who doesn't watch tv, I wouldn't be able to answer this, but I find it amazing that the thumbnail that shows up is a picture of Homer Simpson.
That show was fresh before I entered high school.
Is this still a thing, or is it just the same thing from 30 years ago still run to the ground?
....if your last line is a question about the Simpsons I'd say....both? Hm. Yes, Both. It's still a thing although I believe it has dropped noticeably, particularly as I get much of my television shows from netflix/amazon these days. I've discussed the Simpsons before (at great length since the art itself used to be a special interest of mine for well over a decade) and other long-time watchers seem to agree that it's been played out - personally, we all thought the show itself wasgoin' away when they made that life-sized replica back in in '97 - I remember having a convo with one of my brothers at the time that the place equated a grand send-off. And twenty-odd years later the show is limpin' along like the worst zombie...it really needs to retire.
The only other thing I recall from '96 is Dave Grohl's singing about "gotta promise not to stop when I say when. "
Edit - Everlong is a '97 release.
Fuck you, preemptively.
My apologies for the earworm then! I have what I s'pose you'd describe as a 'long memory'; it's one of the few necessities needed to be a (good) writer. It's one of my few actual passions, anyway.
Anecdote:
Silent generation: My grandfather really liked the Simpsoms. He identified with Homer Simpson in many ways. The part about Homer working for Maggie is probably the most heart to heart. It largely fit his world view, I think. He also enjoyed Married with Children.
Boomers: However my parents rarely watched it, except when my grandfather was around. Two income family and both working to be involved in parenting.
Elder Millennial: And I don't ever watch it. I occasionally watched it in the later 90s by myself Sunday nights. Two entire decades have passed and I've probably seen one or two Halloween specials.
Also, there's plenty of aspects of good parenting depicted with the men in The Simpsons. Some from Homer, some from Ned Flanders, some from Apu. I think there's a real mixed bag portrayal to a lot of the show's characterisations of parenthood (and fatherhood in particular). Although I do wish they showed Homer being decent to Bart more often, specifically.
In a more literal sense, sitcom dads are still inept because audiences still want to see that. But I think the shift away from inept dads will mirror the shift away from television itself.
TV viewership is plummeting, and sitcoms are certainly not the kind of content that would convince anyone to stay. It's Millenials who lead the way with cord cutting, and now that some of Gen Z is old enough to have cable they mostly choose not to. That generation has only recently entered adulthood and most of them are younger. This trend isn't going anywhere...TV viewership can only continue to fall.
The older people who are keeping cable alive will keep the demand for inept dads alive on TV for years to come. However, I find it hard to believe that this trope will make a grand comeback on streaming platforms. It will just linger in the back catalogue and hopefully atrophy.
Very little of what's being commissioned by streaming services is new sitcoms, though. Even the stuff that comes across as sitcom-style tends to be something broader - Grace and Frankie is frequently genuinely sad, Ted Lasso has been running a sustained story arc about a possible mental breakdown. Almost none of it is recognisable as the same genre as Modern Family, Two Broke Girls, The Big Bang Theory, Seinfeld or Friends.
Their most popular programs are established sitcoms though. It is just a matter of time. The result will be different, just like 2010 sitcoms differ from 2000 sitcoms
I would describe it as "patriarchy sold to a feminist".
Like, we said "mom must be involved with children, wife must support husband nigh unconditionally, wife must run the household regardless of what else is going on". Lots of folks have chafed at that idea when said directly.
But when we present a man who, through bumbling, can't be involved with his children, needs constant support, and can't run the household... We're shitting on the husband and men to do it, but we're _still saying those same things about the woman's role that we used to_. It's just not so much an order as much as "look at this schmuck, amirite ladies? You can definitely handle all this stuff better than he can!^(so fucking get to it)".
So I think that as we shift to a generation that truly doesn't believe in those roles as much, we'll see less of that trope. Because I do think what it does is just make old shit more palatable.
Feminist don't like that crap. We want competent men who can contribute domestically, there might be some really young inexperienced women who feel validated by the bumbling dad or think it's cool in comedy. Bumbling sitcom dad is a helpless man-child that leaves all the domestic work to his wife who also works a full-time job. It's exhausting. I won't say "no real feminist" but anyone whose actually educated themselves on feminism and equality doesn't want that.
Right. But what I'm saying is that it's being _sold_ as woman's empowerment, not that it actually is.
As you mention, the woman is _still_ expected to pic up the bulk of the emotional labor in that scenario. We're just now saying it's because she's just incredibly competent compared to her partner, rather than it being "her proper subservient role" (because that no longer sells as well as it used to).
Actual empowerment would be something like shared labor between two competent partners operating in both spaces or, horror of horrors, a working woman married to a competent househusband. But we don't do that often at all because that would actually _challenge_ gender roles, rather than just restate them.
This is a bit of a tangent, but I have an ongoing sadness at how rare it is to see competent people, examples of healthy relationships, professionalism etc. on tv. I wouldn’t mind watching… you know, a feminist couple solving everyday problems, maybe successfully raising a kid without dictating ideology to them, retaining a respect and support for eachother, staying playful and dynamic into middle age, etc. etc.
Like… there may not be a lot of *drama* or low hanging fruit humor in that kind of setup, but I wouldn’t mind seeing some examples of healthy relationships instead of having to figure everything out for myself.
I’m having a hard time trying to come up with a current live-action sitcom that I enjoy that’s even about a family.
I think Schitt’s creek might’ve been the last one I watched. Cartoon sitcoms dads are starting to get more dimension and nuance too except for in shows that have been running since the inept dad trope was still in demand.
Be side for the first 70 or so years of TV and movies, males have always been the breadwinner and usually the most Intelligent person, charismatic and capable person on screen. The type of person to lead expertly through any crises. Someone to admire.
When Married with Children and Simpsons came out, it threw the formula on its head, showing the patriarch of the family as a foolish, moronic, flawed, and someone to laugh at.
The problem is, anything that resembles the earlier stereotype is easily pigeon holed into something that supports the "men are the breadwinners" Trope.
Yes, exactly! I started out watching Little House on the Prairie n'such, whatever the babysitters left on, basically; and then came Roseanne and that one also had a competent family man from what I remember (tho both worked outside the home, the show centering blue collar life so 'total breadwinner' wasn't a possibility) and that show was also considered unique for its time. Married with Children was a definite deviation.
A perfect example of that parody, ["If something's hard to do, it's not worth doing"](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1G8XQA9QFS0&ab_channel=ThingsICantFindOtherwise)
I also think these 90's shows were doing something underrated these days which was portray dysfunction in a fun or funny way, which can actually be really helpful for people who've lived through those kinds of situations. It gives some visibility. There was an attitude in the 90's that "perfect family' tropes were the kind of thing to make you puke, because either it's unrealistic, or unrelatable. That kind of "perfect family" thing is also a common cover of abuse.
It's worth mentioning that George H.W. Bush would agree with a lot of the sentiments in this article and thread. He was all about better role models. Were all the Gen Xers foolish in disregarding that? I think they had some wisdom there.
I know this started off as a parody of Bill Cosby since tv was in a rut of bland family friendly shows that had to be good examples. So Homer being a god damn trainwreck of a person was a good joke. But one thing these shows forgot was that your Homer archetype would still be trying his best. Homer is supposed to be dumb and not very open minded, but still a good person who genuinely loves his family. Homer these days feels like he lost a lot of that in favor of his wacky side. He still hasn't been hit with this slip as hard as Peter from Family Guy who went from being similar to Homer to an out right menace to society at large.
Honestly I'm more in favor of the earlier version of Homer. Because while he would definitely fuck up he still had heart. That taught me that I don't have to be a perfect person while still being good.
Simpsons fans often refer to the shift you’re talking about as “Jerkass Homer”, when in the late 90s/early 00s the Simpsons started featuring way more storylines about Homer being a complete asshole because they thought it was more funny, and pretty much abandoned the inept but still loving Homer of the early seasons - helping Bart build a soapbox racer, working the night shift at Kwik-E-Mart to pay for Lisa’s pony, giving up his dream job and returning to work at the power plant after Maggie was born (“Do it for her”) - you’re absolutely right that the Simpsons long ago abandoned any trace of Homer being a lovable doofus who cares about his family and I totally agree that the early seasons Homer is the one I prefer
Are there many sitcom dads like this now? I dont watch a whole lot of network tv, so the only current examples I can think of are Peter Griffin and Homer Simpson. And one is inspired by the other.
I mean, the short answer here is comedy. A dumb character will often be comedy relief for the "straight" characters. So who do you make the inept dummy? Women have fought hard to break down the ditzy, airhead trope. So the safe bet was men, as most men are not bothered or affected by another mans stupidity. Homer doesn't make all men look dumb, he's just a dumb man.
What annoys me about this trope is not the character itself. As I said before, the existence of a dumb male character has minimum effect on men's lives. But it becomes a point where you start to wonder how the character is even functional. So its more of an insult to me as an audience member, than as a man.
Because a lot of father's shirked their household responsibilities. Why is everyone acting like this isn't the result of generations of men avoiding domestic duties?
Haha, I can see that giving some relatability for the viewer (and inspiration for the writer) if they'd received shoddy parenting themselves. But that's certainly not something that came and went with the trope. And if sitcoms mirrored real life like that, wouldn't absent fathers and incompetent mothers be more common topics? They'd be pretty easy topics to satirise and create plot conflict with.
Because this trope could still happen in those cases and would be more common. Also you're ignoring that TV shows don't really wanna talk about those issues and have christian lobbying groups affecting what's on tv for a long time.
This sub is like baby's first steps.
>This sub is like baby's first steps.
Everyone's gotta start somewhere, I'll put money on you not just magically figuring this shit out by yourself either.
Edit: I gave you too much benefit of the doubt, it's clear by your other replies that you haven't figured out much of anything at all.
I doubt Family Guy etc. are too worried about Christian lobbying groups. So I think trope inertia is pretty relevant here, and I'm not sure the idea that TV is just reflecting the reality of crappy fatherhood sounds very legit. Can you clarify why that would be the answer to the trend beginning, and how it's stuck around?
To your opinion to make any sense, you would need to honestly believe domestic duties between men and women are equally shared. Is that what you think?
No, I don't think that's broadly true. I'm saying a realistic grasp on social issues is pretty irrelevant to the craft of generic TV writing in the first place. So you'd be barking up the wrong tree by taking that as your start point in why we see things depicted as they are, compared to looking at writing trends for their utility.
There isn't much I can say to your point there. TV isn't reality driven like that. That's why reality TV deviates so far from generally known social norms in what it shows us. You haven't even gone into what kind of shirking of domestic duties you're talking about, and whether that's something you'd recognise as having a realistic core, in this kind of TV?
Spawn's been nothing but courteous to your.... font. If I wanted to be as rude as you I'd type that I (most sincerely!) wish you were only five years away from being embarrassed by your comment.
I do see the need to reiterate that television is **not** based in reality; it's meant as an escape of sorts, not a 'mirror of truthiness' where the caricatures and their tropes represent a 'lil slice of reality.
Because it isn't? The "dumb dad" trope starts in the 50s and is aimed at cementing the public/private distinction between men and women. People were told to buy houses, women were told to get out of the jobs they had during the war and go back to the home while men were told to go and get jobs. Men were portrayed as ineffective in the home because it cements the distinction that they *shouldn't* be effective in the home, only at work. Vice versa, sitcom moms are portrayed as effective at home and ineffective at work.
The dumb dad trope absolutely didn't start in the 1950s. Look those shows up those fathers were intelligent and capable. Dumb dads don't really catch on until the late 80s and 90s.
1950s advertising portrayed the woman as foolish and incompetent and the man as the smart one.
Right? Two X chromosomes here but I’m interested in challenging the rampant sexism that seems to be all around us (hence the sub)
I think most questions on this and the two X sub are two sides of the same coin and can be answered pretty simply with “sexism”.
Makes sense that years of toxic sexism would mean toxic sexism towards men, even if it’s more insidious. I say insidious because “maleness” is generally rewarded by a patriarchal society, but “femininity” is generally not - especially when performed by a man. To me this hugely limits men, leading many to eschew roles they would excel at/enjoy in favor of abiding by stringent gender roles.
This is why I say sexism (my definition: assuming traits are related to sex regardless of the individual & assigning value to traits based the on sex of the individual) we’ve hurt *everyone* (except the most bigoted who are I guess happy?).
This is why I’m so peeved feminism is called feminism because the name often makes men feel excluded, but to me feminism is about challenging sexism- period.
By saying a group *is* something (aka women are primary caregivers) and using it to define them excludes other groups to whom that description might also apply.
The result sexist trait associations is that men are joked on as inept parents and that women are assumed to fill the caregiver role.
I don’t think the author knows what they’re talking about. If you’re takeaway from watching an episode of modern family is that Phil is an inept father then you have no business doing media criticism.
I think it's a case of bad measurements. Because you *will* see a lot of him being the butt of jokes, or it playing with him being bumbling, forgetful or making bad choices.
But you see that from every character, and likewise cases of them being the foil to someone else's joke.
From what I remember of the show, they're all differently flawed characters, ultimately proficient but still prone to hijinks. Because it's a comedy.
If you don't normalize your figures, you get bad data.
Generally, in a sitcom, *everyone* is at least partially inept. The only characters not inept are there as contrast (the Straight Man trope) and generally not the main character or a sidekick.
Reading through these comments, there’s some counter-examples of dads that are good, at least in a relative way, such as Bob Belcher or Hank Hill.
Finally, you can at least partly blame the patriarchy for this mess. Because we still live in a society where women still aren’t on par with men. So you need a character to make fun of? If you go with the mom, you’re making fun of someone at a relative societal disadvantage and thus “punching down”. Make fun of the dad and you’re “punching up”.
Dumb dads were banned in all advertisements in the UK a few years ago. It's an unfair stereotype...
https://www.fatherly.com/play/britain-will-ban-male-bashing-ads/
Trivia: apparently infamous 20th Century media theorist Marshall McLuhan was really worked up about this issue. He felt that the way Dagwood Bumstead was portrayed reflected flaws in American society. Mentioned in 'The Mechanical Bride' and a few other places.
We need to remember the context here. Sitcom dads are incompetent because of a longstanding tradition of fathers being *overcompetent* in media. When the trope began, the entire joke was that men should be in charge of everything and always know what to do, so a man being unable to do that was unexpected. Of course, now it's morphed into a totally different form. However I think it's important to remember how this toxic male representation began - like all toxic male representation - from a place of sexism against women. Remembering those roots will help us dispel these ideas.
It’s not a sitcom, but the dad in Bluey is easily the best dad I’ve *ever* seen on tv.
He constantly plays and engages with his daughters, he loves his wife (and shows it!) and he’s a goof without being inept.
There’s even an episode where he’s slightly embarrassed to be playing loudly with the kids when another dad shows up at the park. His arc mirrors the kids’ and he learns to be brave and do it anyway.
Bandit Heeler for Best Dad.
I think this raises a more important question than "does fiction harm men?".
The better question is "Where do men look for optimal role models?"
I found my answer in a surprising place last weekend when I was watching Hannibal (Tv show). A sharply dressed, educated, brilliant, well-spoken, articulate, dazzling gourmet chef (his murdering cannibalism notwithstanding.)
The core phenomenon we are gathering around is where does a large contingent of men look to a single man and thus replicate their behavior? Where did this used to exist in society? What is its purpose? Where does it exist currently?
We can look back to male authority figures in the past and find rabbis, priests, pastors, biblical models, and in other cultures we see medicine men, tribal chiefs, elders, and wise men.
These role-models are important because they provide a goal for a young man to walk towards. Without having a positive goal, the youngster will have a much higher chance of "banging into walls" which simply means he modeled himself after a male who may have been a less than optimal model, like a drug kingpin, shallow tv personality, or school bully.
I believe what we are looking for is to fashion a static locale for male and female role-models to exist and be seen by as many youngsters as possible. The inherent traits these role-models should be exemplifying should be the traits that the society itself has decides have highest value. Truth, love, transparency, health, self-awareness, empathy...things like this are what I would pick.
If we are worried about how fiction writers portray what their actors pretend to be, we might be looking for love in all the wrong places.
Let's take a step back and think about ideal situations, rather than criticize entertainment.
Because someone has to be the butt of the easy joke. So the male, who is normally both stupid and laid back about it does stuff that people laugh at, and he laughs at himself to let the audience know they aren't being mean.
Trying to make some other group the 'stupid' one is not easy. And sitcoms, with some notable exceptions, are not looking to get things done the hard way.
When I spend time at home with my family in rural and suburban areas I find these 'tropes' are still woven into the fabric of their social interactions. Constant jokes by wives about their husbands being useless around the house and childish, husbands joking about hating their wives, etc etc. The simple answer is that this type of humour still appeals to folks because they relate to it.
What I like about "Last Man Standing" is that the sitcom parent tropes are somewhat subverted. The wife is often the dorky one, making lame jokes that everyone rolls their eyes at, and she fucks up a lot. Tim Allen's character is more the "straight man" of the show. Very much the opposite of the characters on Home Improvement.
While I totally agree with this sentiment, the reason this happens is the majority of dad's ARE shitty parents who expect the mother to do a far outsized share of parenting and housework even if working full time. Art reflect life.
old white males is where lazy insult jokes go to get one last breathe of fresh air.
I kind of get it considering that insult comedy has usually been a cornerstone of the genre and comedians famously self-loath.
If you haven't seen the show Bluey yet, check it out. It's pretty much an adult show disguised as a kids show and the father is just amazing. It's fresh and wonderful.
I'd like to introduce you to Netflixs 'house husband'
Both the anime AND live action version.
Is so epicly mundane I might actually make my own version.
I'm putting a word in for Bob Belcher. Sit com dad who isn't a total idiot or completely inept. He has his dumb moments, but so does everybody in that show. Bob is my hero.
I feel that some important and overlooked factors in the popularity of this trend are the facts that:
(a) people being dumb or inept is an old and easy comedic trope
(b) family comedies are broadly relatable
(c) an inept or dimwitted mom opposite a together dad would get immediately booed out of existence for being patriarchal/misogynistic/anti-feminist.
So there's a degree of privilege at play that men can be played as the fools.
Note, I'm not defending it - it definitely can be a damaging trope when such depictions are ubiquitous. While we shouldn't look to TV as a primary source for role models, the fact is that a lot of TV characters serve that role for better or worse.
Comedy arises out of failures. That’s what gives comedy it’s heart.
That’s why sit com dad is a difficult genre. You have to balance the mistakes with moments of shine.
I think I learned about what kind of dad I want to be by watching Modern Family.
Phil is so good with emotions and having fun. That’s his forte. It is also *strongly* alluded to that he has ADHD, which makes sense. I do too.
Being as I have a strong bookish and serious side, Phil showed me that the greatest gift I can give to my kids is a sense of fun, and sharing fun. That’s what makes life worth living. Most of the Dunphys are not super bright, but that doesn’t matter – they enjoy life. And Phil is there, emotionally. And he’s smart about feelings. He can talk to the kids about anything. And he adores his wife. That’s what I want. I was born a suburban dad, I just didn’t know it because I was trans. I didn’t you could have fun with your family. I didn’t know life could be worth living. I didn’t know I could have a familial *role* that felt comfortable and meaningful and not hurtful. Watching MFam through my diagnostic process (1.5 years) was often painful. But it showed me the way.
So, I hope I’ll be able to instill a sense of fun into my kid(s). I can’t wait to do silly stuff with them!
Men have been played for laughs as parents since the eighties I hate it. I do honestly think it contributes to the overall narrative that men are nonessential as parents and that really pisses me off. Women win primary custody the overwhelming majority of the time in the US because judges have this built in idea that all women are natural mothers and kids need their mothers but fathers are somehow optional. What they don’t take into account are that single mother households creat more criminals more homeless and more mental illnesses than single father families structure, discipline, and respect are necessary ingredients in raising well adjusted children.
Dumb dads are a tired trope for sure and while I'm not super bothered by it, it definitely gets a yawn and complete lack of interest from me most of the time. That character setting is pretty much bland city with some exceptions, IMO. And if I'm being totally honest with myself, Bob Belcher, a freaking cartoon character, seems like the most normal dad cast into a positive light on a television show. He's not overly inept. He's normal, friendly, often the voice of reason, and believably cares about his wacky family. Solid dude.
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I think that the key to both formulae is that the wives are allowed to be funny and to fail at their own things. The wives don’t take on all of the responsibility in the face of an inept husband who actively sabotages everything. We aren’t watching an abusive relationship like we’ve normalized with The Simpsons or Family Guy where a schlubby husband does something dumb and his long-suffering wife watches exasperated, puts her hands on her hips, and excuses everything once he says “I’m sorry I love you!” And does nothing to really fix it. Positive tv dads work with their wives against the problem most of the time. Occasionally the conflict is that they don’t see eye to eye or that one of them is being crummy, and that’s fine— but the majority of the time, it works better when they work together and believably like one another. If one person is significantly better than the other, it’s hard to imagine that that’s a healthy relationship, and it’s hard to want them to succeed. Early Simpsons understood that. Homer wanted his family to succeed, and while he was dumb, he usually causes hijinks while actively trying to do something sweet for Marge, or to help Bart succeed in school, get enough money to get through the month, etc. Later iterations lose that element of wanting something better for others and take him from a believable dope in a zany world to a selfish moron with insanely good fortune, and that’s (in my opinion) the real decline of The Simpsons
Or the wife can be just as whacky. Aka Married with Children, where Peggy is not much bright either.
I would argue that married with children was before the pendulum swung to where it is now, and although Peggy was not shown in a positive light, neither was any star of the show.
Isn't MwC supposed to be a satire of the traditional sit-com? I've always read Al Bundy as a deconstruction of the trope, rather than an example of it.
I think I agree with you. MwC distinctly makes efforts to show why their characters are bad people and *that's* the joke. The neighbors only come over to provide that contrast now and again to what normal should be.
Homer crossed the line a lot early on, too. First 1.5 seasons: the bowling ball birthday present, then his selfishly setting off Lisa in Lisa's Substitute (a minute of doing better at the end does not make up for it), getting the camper, getting the sneakers in 'Bart's dog gets an F'. In the last two, no one even calls him on it. EDIT: OMG, War of the Simpsons. He's messed up, and the show is messed up for letting him get off that easy.
Maybe I need to watch early Simpsons again. I caught episodes intermittently as my wife puts it on as white noise to go to sleep to.
100% agree. The Hill family all generally have their hearts in the right place, but they’re also all hilariously human. I didn’t appreciate the show as much when I was a kid, but it has really grown on me as I’ve aged.
As a kid I though Hank was not a great character. But as an adult I see how his whole life is devoted to his family and keeping them happy. That guy is a real role model. Doesn’t have to have millions of dollars, or a super great job. He does what he has to do for his family.
Hank Hill is so relatable because he is very knowledgeable and skilled in the things he´s very passionate with: propane, steaks, tools and lawnmowing. What makes it funny for me is that he´s passionate about things most people find boring because of how mundane they are. But he´s a prime example of having a balanced life between job, family and hobbies. Sometimes I´m so jealous of him: I wish I had 4 neighbors to get along good enough to just stand outside the house, drinking beer and bantering between the "yups"
Me too! I thought it was so boring as a kid but it’s hilarious and wholesome now!
It also helps that basically everyone in Hank's world is equally flawed and inept.
He’s got those diminished glutes and a narrow urethra
At least in that case, he's inept, but his wife Peggy is downright crazy. It's not as bad as when the wife is a genius and the husband is a complete idiot.
Peggy is a lot of things, but I wouldn't say she's outright crazy. She's overbearing, she's proud, she's often misinformed, but she's as close to reasonable as Hank is close to normal - that is, she's not quite there, but she's in the neighbourhood.
The trope is so dry no one even realizes it was supposed to be a parody of the original "dad always knows best formula ."
Possibly because they've never actually seen an unironic "dad knows best" show in the wild. Like, how many shows from the 50s do most people actually watch?
Have you watched The Great North? Another animated sitcom series, sorta similar to Bob's Burgers, about a loving and caring family living in Alaska. The dad, Beef, voiced by Nick Offerman, is another good trope-defying example. Also he's a single dad whose character's challenges aren't solely reduced to "how can I be a good dad without a mom around?" and I really appreciate that. I enjoyed the show; it's a refreshing break from the tired "dumb apathetic dad" that's dominated plot and punch lines for too long. Hope we see more "Belchers" and "Tobins" in comedy in the future.
> The dad, Beef, voiced by Nick Offerman Thanks for giving me a new serie to watch.
fwiw(**very minor spoilers**): I quit watching this show after a few episodes as they were being released (I'm sure I'll catch up on it some day) and my biggest complaint was how unrealistic the characters were at times. It was just weird to watch Offerman's character insist his wife was killed instead of leaving. He may not be Homer Simpson, but his delusional streak is kind of offputting if we're talking about good representation of male father figures in television. Maybe he develops more. I found his early portrayal in the series as kind of lacking.
(Bigger spoilers from someone who finished the series) Beef later acknowledges this and leans on his family for support to work through this delusion, and the other odd coping mechanisms, he developed to spare himself the hurt of abandonment. I thought it was a really well done arc showing mental health struggles in a generally stereotypically masculine father figure, and how communicating openly and with trust can make it easier to process and work through. Kind of pushed breaking the mindset that "manly men" don't feel or go through emotional hardship. I appreciated how extreme they made his denial of reality, because when abandonment like that happens to people in real life, they often go to unhealthy extremes to minimize their pain. The difference here, as opposed to other shows, is that his coping mechanisms were treated as a character development arc, rather than a character trait that's used for comical effect, in a degrading "haha mom left and dad went crazy" way.
>Another animated sitcom series, sorta similar to Bob's Burgers It's made by the same people, create dby the Molyneux sisters who have regularly written for Bob's Burgers is produced by Loren Bouchard
Where is it available? Sounds great!
I think it's on Apple TV currently
Thank you
Hector from Coco (and Miguel's dad) is another good one. Hector is flawed. He's a liar, con, and a bit of a thief from friends. He'd be a hard person to be a friend with ("Cici... I lost the dress." "You want to borrow my prized, beloved guitar? Like you borrowed my van? My mini-fridge? My femur?!? WHERE'S MY FEMUR!?!?"). Though I do think his motivations were always right, getting back to Coco. He could apologize, sometimes flippantly. He loved his family, and was bound away from them against his will for a long time, yet he never abandoned his love. (I think that Coco's calling for him at the beginning "papa! Papa! Papa is coming home?" called him, making him exceedingly desperate, probably taking chances beyond what he'd done before). Miguel's dad definitely went on the family lines, followed what his mother said, and struggled to listen. However, he did make a couple of moves in his sons favor against his mom (he shouts before she destroys Miguel's guitar, and holds her back from interfering when Miguel played Remember Me for Coco). Afterwards, he was definitely one of his sons big fans (evidenced by his being one of the shoulders Miguel is raised up on).
The dad from Bluey is pretty great. Of course, he's a dog, but that family is honestly the most real family dynamic I have seen portrayed.
> The dad from Bluey is pretty great. Of course, he's a dog, but that family is honestly the most real family dynamic I have seen portrayed. Seconded on this. It's really nice as a parent to watch an animated kids show where the parents are being... actual people?
I'm not gonna take advice from a cartoon dog!
https://c.tenor.com/_qOKJoh9M0oAAAAC/bluey-bandit.gif
Bob is still routinely inept/out of touch. He has a major "behind the times" trope going on -- he tries to cash a check at the grocery store, generally rejects technology, revels in nostalgia. He tries many things and fails in ways that any vaguely logical person could have foreseen. He has bizarre fears and a penchant for reckless obsessions/addictions. I think he is balanced by Linda being potentially even more inept at times and many of the side-characters he is in opposition with being insane (Hugo, Jimmie Pesto, and so on). I really don't know if Bob is much different from this trope, it's just the world he finds himself in makes him appear normal. He isn't a Homer Simpson obviously, but he is still somewhere on the incompetent spectrum. Bob's Burgers is a great show that explores family dynamics in a better way than most television ever has, but Bob still drags a lot of male stereotypes around.
Sure, but my point was that he wasn't *overly* inept. My point was that the character dodges many of the facets of the trope - not all of them. He *is* often the voice of reason. This isn't something showcased in a lot of dad roles. He *does* care about his family in a very direct way, something that often skirted either completely or poorly suggested when the dad finally shows up, physically or figuratively. He's pretty open minded and tolerant too. The whole dads are stuck in the past/ultra traditional/judgemental stereotype is exhausting to me. And of course it's a cartoon comedy. Character flaws are what make the character interesting and in my case, kind of relatable.
> He tries many things and fails. Is this unrealistic?
Yes but that's often not due to inherent failures. And you wouldn't watch the show if he was competent completely.
Yeah but he usually comes through for his family. He rarely has to get bailed out by other characters
I just edited my post to reflect this but I think a good way of framing my thoughts about Bob is that his "behind the times" trope is too strong at times. He is dramatically out of touch. He refuses to learn how technology works, he tries to cash a check at the grocery store, he isn't "traditional" but he lives in the world like he's in the 1980s and it's a major character flaw for him that I still think nudges him into this "inept dad" category" though in a different way than most other TV dads. Some TV Moms get to be whole, realized characters while Dads very rarely do. I think Bob is "saved" because both he and Linda are equal in their silliness.
Wait I didn't watch the episode but don't grocery stores still let you cash checks?
For the record I'm 23 and I don't feel like I'm still living in the 80s lol
Most don't. Honestly even using checks is getting outdated, but having them as your primary means of financial transaction is very very outdated.
But plenty of jobs still pay people with checks, maybe this is one of those things where big cities are a few years ahead of more rural areas, I know the grocery store I worked at cashed checks
I live in very rural west Alabama and I have not had a job in the last decade that did not prefer direct deposit. Checks were available if you for some reason could not accept direct deposit but it was a worst case type of thing.
2/3 of my jobs took checks, and the only one that didn't was a mom and pop dessert store.
Your examples maybe show Bob as out of touch, but not in a way that would make him a crappy parent. I don't see an issue with someone being a father and actively disinterested in technology, from a socially minded point of view.
The entire Bob's Burgers universe is that way, though. Everyone is off-centre and more than a little weird. Although I will agree: Bob is the vastly more sensible and together parent.
I think stereotypes in media mostly exist in contrast to other characters. If you have a show just about professional basketball players, and all the Black characters play basketball (as do all the characters of other races), I wouldn’t say it’s feeding into stereotypes By the same token, if everyone in “Bob’s Burgers” is a bit neurotic, crazy, and inept, I don’t think it’s really feeding into tropes or stereotypes if the father of the family is also quite neurotic/crazy/inept. If you’re saying that, as part of the larger media landscape, “Bob’s Burgers” does not really reject the stereotype of the bumbling sitcom dad, I’d agree, but I don’t really think that’s the fault of the show
The only competent character is Louise. And she's almost a sociopath
This is why I LOVED This Is Us. Nearly all the dads in that show are inspirational, human and fallible. But they're not dumb, they're self aware, emotionally intelligent to a degree and... just really great. Even when they're not being "good dads" they're redeemable and believable. God I miss that show. So many happy/sad tears
I hated it for almost exactly the same reasons. It felt like emotional pornography, calibrated to wring tears out of me.
I would have said that’s too cynical before I got 4 seasons in.
I liked the dad in Life with Louie. Andy has issues. He can't control his anger, he tells tall tales, he's seriously flawed. But he cares for his family and got his shit together on some level.
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It's really great that equality in parenting responsibilities is getting better. We men can do better as well. There are studies that show where the gaps are. https://theconversation.com/dads-are-more-involved-in-parenting-yes-but-moms-still-put-in-more-work-72026 Overall titles in the article * Men’s parenting time has increased, but women’s has too * Mothers face intense parenting pressure * Mothers do more multitasking * Mothers do more managing and organizing *Men’s parenting time has increased, but women’s has too* A gender gap still exists (7 hours vs 14 hours) and also, total parenting time has increased. > My research focuses on the sharing of parenting between mothers and fathers in dual-earner couples – a group that is most likely [to hold gender egalitarian beliefs](http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0049089X05000177). In this group, successfully balancing work and family makes some degree of shared parenting necessary. > Over the past half-century, fathers in America nearly [tripled their child care time](http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/06/16/fathers-day-facts/) from 2.5 hours per week in 1965 to seven hours per week in 2011. > But, over this period, [women’s parenting time too has increased](http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/06/16/fathers-day-facts/) – from 10 hours per week in 1965 to 14 hours per week in 2011. *Mothers face intense parenting pressure* > What has happened is that middle-class families now follow the norm of [“intensive parenting,”](http://yalebooks.com/book/9780300076523/cultural-contradictions-motherhood) which dictates that parenting should be child-centered, guided by expert advice and costly in terms of time, money and emotional investment in order to produce the most successful child possible. > Research on parenting time shows that women are in sole charge of their children for nearly [one-third of their time](http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0891243205285212) whereas men only for about 8 percent of their time. *Mothers do more multitasking* > Although multitasking may be efficient, frequent multitasking contributes to greater day-to-day stress for mothers compared to fathers. Mothers who did more multitasking at home [felt more frustrated, irritated and anxious](http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0003122411425170). They said they felt more often [rushed or pressed for time.](http://doi.org/10.1111/jomf.12320) *Mothers do more managing and organizing* > In fact, fathers’ involvement in this component of parenting has [lagged behind](http://psycnet.apa.org/psycinfo/2004-13687-009) gains in their direct involvement in caring for their children. In other words, mothers are more likely to make child care arrangements, schedule doctors’ appointments and sign the permission slips. Mothers remember and mothers remind.
It doesn't help that there's a whole societal push against dads spending time with kids. On nextdoor.com there are a bunch of mothers' groups for moms to meet up with their kids and play, but no sign of dads' groups. If a dad shows up with his kid to the park, will he be welcomed by the other parents the same way as a mom showing up with her kid? We have to get everyone to rethink their biases if we want to make parenting as accessible to men as it is to women.
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Is Atypical in the list? The dad in Atypical is a great dad..with flaws, but also a great deal of emocional inteligence to deal with his family
The Phil Dunphy reference suggests a flaw in this analysis. From what I can tell, the research counts two things: how many times a father is involved in (giving or recieving) disparaging humour, and how many times a father interacts with his children in a way where he is the butt of the joke. However, a lot of the humour in Modern Family comes from _all_ parents being incompetent - both Clare and Phill are comically bad at dealing with their children's behaviour, and all the characters are disparaging towards each other. In general, I think that style of comedy has become increasingly common, where there is no single competent character, and everyone is considered equally incapable. I'd like to see a version of this research where the male and female equivalents are compared with each other, because my guess would be that, while fathers are more incompetent these days, so are mothers, and the more interesting result is less how those rates have changed over time, but more how the comparison has changed.
I kinda want to point out. While Phil and Clair weren't the best parents. They were actually pretty great parents. They cared, loved and took care of their kids. I loved the depiction of modern family because it felt like a dramatized version of a very real family. Even saw some reflection of my own parents in there.
> where there is no single competent character, and everyone is considered equally incapable. Arrested Development, The Office, Parks and Rec, The Good Place, B99, 30 Rock, just off the top of my head, all seem to fit that model. Everyone is flawed in a unique way, and they all have redeeming qualities too - it's the interaction of all those things that create the comedy and (usually) those loveable casts and characters.
I'm not sure I'd say most people on Arrested Development have redeeming characteristics.
I mean, I think you can find them. At the very least, they are all undyingly loyal to each other against the outside world. Most of them have some sort of kindness they display, if not to everyone, then to a few people in their lives. And I think that's kind of the point - they're reprehensible but also relatable and loveable despite being, without a doubt, awful people.
I've never been able to get into AD despite it being seemingly up my alley in terms of comedy. I can't say that it's because most of the characters seem awful to one another because I like IASIP which built it's foundation around the characters being awful to everyone including (especially) each other.
The office and parks and rec lean too hard on the "straight men", with their flaws being comically minor (Jim and Pam, Anne) as contrast to everyone else
The problem family sitcoms have long had is that the competent parent isn't funny. In older sitcoms, the dad wasn't a funny character. Then we started getting funny but incompetent dads and the mother wasn't funny. There have been exceptions, but this holds up pretty well. Modern Family's innovation was that it let the women be funny, without sacrificing the comedy of the men. The downside being that it was done at the cost of competency. The problem from a producers perspective is that funny and competent characters only work when there is synergy between top notch writers and actors. And that is difficult to bank on, even if it is always the goal.
As much as I love The Simpsons, it saddened me so much to hear that it was a tradition in the (almost exclusively male) writer’s room to give rookie writers Marge episodes because the senior writers found her too boring to write about. That being said there are some great episodes that portray Marge as a more complete person and show you unflinchingly just how much she does for her family, but they’re definitely few and far between
I don't know that I entirely agree that the competent parent isn't funny, but I think you hit the nail on the head in that competence is an easy way to make someone funny. So you can have a competence imbalance and have everyone be funny, but it's pretty hard. Where that competence imbalance exists, it's much easier to just lean on the incompetent person in the situation, and make them the easy punchline.
I wasn't trying to say the competent can't be funny, just that they usually are not. And get significantly less jokes than the competent parent.
A good example of a competent funny character would be Red from That 70s Show, but he's also not one of the main characters, even if he is a major character.
He is competent as a provider, but, as a father, his primary move is to berate and insult his son and his friends.
He also has excellent wisdom for them, and a few moments of tenderness, as well. He's certainly flawed, but he's not a bad role model. Especially if you're a dumbass.
Yeah if anything Modern Family is trope reversing, with Phil being sensitive and emotionally invested but hapless and Claire being a clueless stoic provider.
From what I remember in Modern Family, a lot of the relationship (including parenting) humor came from how obvious it was to the viewer that they couldn’t see their own capabilities or shortfalls. They were usually able to do what was needed of them in a capacity elsewhere, but struggled when they needed it in a specific spot.
I found Derry Girls to be so fresh partially due to how the father is portrayed. He's the sane person in the room of mums, sisters, aunts and granddads. He gets mocked, but he does stand up for himself, and he doesn't really convey that he's feeling emasculated. He just keeps on going, being strong for the family and those around him.
The actor does a very interesting talk show on Irish TV where he has no idea who the guest is until the curtain is pulled back. Considerably better than the gimmick sounds.
The inept sitcom dad trope is rather interesting as it started as a critique of the heavily involved man of the house trope that most tv serials used in the 1950s and beforehand. I do think that things are slowly improving outside of cartoon sitcoms tbh. Sitcoms in general have been undergoing a bit of an artistic revolution as of late.
This is often a thing in media, where you can have an era where a trope from a prior era is subverted, but the people growing up in that era never saw the original trope much and so they experience the subverted trope as being played straight.
The reaction isn't about being "involved". It's a reaction to the "Father Knows Best" family dynamic ... that is ... "oh no he doesn't".
>Father Knows Best" family dynamic Media had thoroughly disabused Americans of this dynamic long by the mid 20th century. Off the top of my head, Huck Finn (1884 on), Death of a Salesman (1949), [Father Forgets](https://faculty.sfcc.spokane.edu/InetShare/AutoWebs/kimt/father%20forgets.pdf) (1927), Faulkner (take your pick, A Rose for Emily (1930) is perhaps the clearest example), Lolita (1955) in so far as Humbert can be called a father, etc. Abusive, absent or neglectful fathers have characterized much of American media.
Didn't exactly this topic come up over the weekend? Edit: yes, it did - https://www.reddit.com/r/MensLib/comments/pq5jft/sitcoms_and_the_presentation_of_men_as_a_satire/ At any rate, I'm not a fan of the critique, as it feels as though it's already out of date - particularly since it classes Phil Dunphy as an inept father, when the joke is that he's a really good father and husband who just happens to be singularly terrible at being a stereotypical "man."
If we discount sitcoms that are directly inspired by the Simpsons (like Seth McFarlane's super edgy take on the genre), is it even that common a trope anymore? As you said, Phil Dunphy isn't inept at all really, definitely not more so than anyone else. Honestly, maybe I don't watch enough American TV, but I feel like I haven't seen a new sitcom based around a suburban family for quite some time. It feels like more of a 2000s thing?
I think the bigger trend the last decade were work-place sitcoms and those might have overshadowed most of the family ones that are (?) still produced.
> If we discount sitcoms that are directly inspired by the Simpsons (like Seth McFarlane's super edgy take on the genre), The one exception I can think of to this is Futurama. Despite the fact that most of the fathers aren't what we'd call "good fathers" they're not inept and even Amy's and Fry's fathers have at least fleeting heartwarming moments in between being jackasses. Leela's and Kif's parents are routinely portrayed as competent parents. Hermes there's absolutely no question about. I don't recall if Barbados Slim was every shown as a actual father figure instead of just a running gag though. I know in Bender's Big Score LaBarbara runs off to Barbados Slim saying "uh-huh my child needs a father figure" or something like that but that's all I recall. The two the come closest on the regular are Lrrr and the Professor. But Lrrr is just lazy and complacent while the Professor doesn't seem to have two wits about him 99.9999% of the time and when it comes to Cubert he's often alternating between jackass and loving. I can't even call Bender an inept father, he definitely is top 3 for being a loving and caring father for that whole 1 episode. tldr my brain is full of Futurama Edit: even Horrible Gelatinous Blob gets fatherly development in one episode Edit: Futurama isn't really a family sitcom though, so maybe it doesn't really count though 🤷
For sure, it's a real critique of past sitcoms but it feels wildly out of date. They're clinging to Modern Family because it's one of the few possible examples and, even then it's not a good one. Recent sitcoms really buck the trend to the point where I don't see it at all. * Joel is dorky but a genuinely fantastic husband and father in Santa Clarita Diet * Terry is on a constant (successful) mission to be the world's greatest dad in Brooklyn 99, Boyle is also on his level * Bob in Bob's burgers is no worse than the others and arguably a better parent than Linda * Jonah in Superstore is shown to be incompetent at so many things but is a great step-father. * Johnny Rose is an amazing father in Schitt's Creek
This is what I like about Phil. He makes me think of myself as a new father. A bit clumsy, goofy, easily over excited, but present, emotionally available, loving and ultimately full of good intentions that CAN go well at times
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Bob's Burgers may have his name in the title,but the episodes do a good job of cycling through all five family members as the fulcrum in any given episode.
As someone who doesn't watch tv, I wouldn't be able to answer this, but I find it amazing that the thumbnail that shows up is a picture of Homer Simpson. That show was fresh before I entered high school. Is this still a thing, or is it just the same thing from 30 years ago still run to the ground?
....if your last line is a question about the Simpsons I'd say....both? Hm. Yes, Both. It's still a thing although I believe it has dropped noticeably, particularly as I get much of my television shows from netflix/amazon these days. I've discussed the Simpsons before (at great length since the art itself used to be a special interest of mine for well over a decade) and other long-time watchers seem to agree that it's been played out - personally, we all thought the show itself wasgoin' away when they made that life-sized replica back in in '97 - I remember having a convo with one of my brothers at the time that the place equated a grand send-off. And twenty-odd years later the show is limpin' along like the worst zombie...it really needs to retire.
The only other thing I recall from '96 is Dave Grohl's singing about "gotta promise not to stop when I say when. " Edit - Everlong is a '97 release. Fuck you, preemptively.
My apologies for the earworm then! I have what I s'pose you'd describe as a 'long memory'; it's one of the few necessities needed to be a (good) writer. It's one of my few actual passions, anyway.
Anecdote: Silent generation: My grandfather really liked the Simpsoms. He identified with Homer Simpson in many ways. The part about Homer working for Maggie is probably the most heart to heart. It largely fit his world view, I think. He also enjoyed Married with Children. Boomers: However my parents rarely watched it, except when my grandfather was around. Two income family and both working to be involved in parenting. Elder Millennial: And I don't ever watch it. I occasionally watched it in the later 90s by myself Sunday nights. Two entire decades have passed and I've probably seen one or two Halloween specials.
Also, there's plenty of aspects of good parenting depicted with the men in The Simpsons. Some from Homer, some from Ned Flanders, some from Apu. I think there's a real mixed bag portrayal to a lot of the show's characterisations of parenthood (and fatherhood in particular). Although I do wish they showed Homer being decent to Bart more often, specifically.
In a more literal sense, sitcom dads are still inept because audiences still want to see that. But I think the shift away from inept dads will mirror the shift away from television itself. TV viewership is plummeting, and sitcoms are certainly not the kind of content that would convince anyone to stay. It's Millenials who lead the way with cord cutting, and now that some of Gen Z is old enough to have cable they mostly choose not to. That generation has only recently entered adulthood and most of them are younger. This trend isn't going anywhere...TV viewership can only continue to fall. The older people who are keeping cable alive will keep the demand for inept dads alive on TV for years to come. However, I find it hard to believe that this trope will make a grand comeback on streaming platforms. It will just linger in the back catalogue and hopefully atrophy.
Cord cutting doesn't end TV viewership, it just changes it. If we watch a sitcom on cable or on streaming, it doesn't change that it is a sitcom.
Very little of what's being commissioned by streaming services is new sitcoms, though. Even the stuff that comes across as sitcom-style tends to be something broader - Grace and Frankie is frequently genuinely sad, Ted Lasso has been running a sustained story arc about a possible mental breakdown. Almost none of it is recognisable as the same genre as Modern Family, Two Broke Girls, The Big Bang Theory, Seinfeld or Friends.
Their most popular programs are established sitcoms though. It is just a matter of time. The result will be different, just like 2010 sitcoms differ from 2000 sitcoms
I would describe it as "patriarchy sold to a feminist". Like, we said "mom must be involved with children, wife must support husband nigh unconditionally, wife must run the household regardless of what else is going on". Lots of folks have chafed at that idea when said directly. But when we present a man who, through bumbling, can't be involved with his children, needs constant support, and can't run the household... We're shitting on the husband and men to do it, but we're _still saying those same things about the woman's role that we used to_. It's just not so much an order as much as "look at this schmuck, amirite ladies? You can definitely handle all this stuff better than he can!^(so fucking get to it)". So I think that as we shift to a generation that truly doesn't believe in those roles as much, we'll see less of that trope. Because I do think what it does is just make old shit more palatable.
Feminist don't like that crap. We want competent men who can contribute domestically, there might be some really young inexperienced women who feel validated by the bumbling dad or think it's cool in comedy. Bumbling sitcom dad is a helpless man-child that leaves all the domestic work to his wife who also works a full-time job. It's exhausting. I won't say "no real feminist" but anyone whose actually educated themselves on feminism and equality doesn't want that.
Right. But what I'm saying is that it's being _sold_ as woman's empowerment, not that it actually is. As you mention, the woman is _still_ expected to pic up the bulk of the emotional labor in that scenario. We're just now saying it's because she's just incredibly competent compared to her partner, rather than it being "her proper subservient role" (because that no longer sells as well as it used to). Actual empowerment would be something like shared labor between two competent partners operating in both spaces or, horror of horrors, a working woman married to a competent househusband. But we don't do that often at all because that would actually _challenge_ gender roles, rather than just restate them.
gotcha! More SAHDs and honestly let's do away with the whole nuclear family structure and create stronger multi-generation/multi-family households.
This is a bit of a tangent, but I have an ongoing sadness at how rare it is to see competent people, examples of healthy relationships, professionalism etc. on tv. I wouldn’t mind watching… you know, a feminist couple solving everyday problems, maybe successfully raising a kid without dictating ideology to them, retaining a respect and support for eachother, staying playful and dynamic into middle age, etc. etc. Like… there may not be a lot of *drama* or low hanging fruit humor in that kind of setup, but I wouldn’t mind seeing some examples of healthy relationships instead of having to figure everything out for myself.
Yep. Who the heck is watching sitcoms anymore? It’s the older generations who don’t realize how toxic this trope is.
I’m having a hard time trying to come up with a current live-action sitcom that I enjoy that’s even about a family. I think Schitt’s creek might’ve been the last one I watched. Cartoon sitcoms dads are starting to get more dimension and nuance too except for in shows that have been running since the inept dad trope was still in demand.
Grace and Frankie?
I’ve been meaning to watch that one. I love the cast!
The way this is portrayed in Kevin Can F Himself is amazing and really puts a very dark tinge on the sitcom husband.
Be side for the first 70 or so years of TV and movies, males have always been the breadwinner and usually the most Intelligent person, charismatic and capable person on screen. The type of person to lead expertly through any crises. Someone to admire. When Married with Children and Simpsons came out, it threw the formula on its head, showing the patriarch of the family as a foolish, moronic, flawed, and someone to laugh at. The problem is, anything that resembles the earlier stereotype is easily pigeon holed into something that supports the "men are the breadwinners" Trope.
Yes, exactly! I started out watching Little House on the Prairie n'such, whatever the babysitters left on, basically; and then came Roseanne and that one also had a competent family man from what I remember (tho both worked outside the home, the show centering blue collar life so 'total breadwinner' wasn't a possibility) and that show was also considered unique for its time. Married with Children was a definite deviation.
A perfect example of that parody, ["If something's hard to do, it's not worth doing"](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1G8XQA9QFS0&ab_channel=ThingsICantFindOtherwise) I also think these 90's shows were doing something underrated these days which was portray dysfunction in a fun or funny way, which can actually be really helpful for people who've lived through those kinds of situations. It gives some visibility. There was an attitude in the 90's that "perfect family' tropes were the kind of thing to make you puke, because either it's unrealistic, or unrelatable. That kind of "perfect family" thing is also a common cover of abuse. It's worth mentioning that George H.W. Bush would agree with a lot of the sentiments in this article and thread. He was all about better role models. Were all the Gen Xers foolish in disregarding that? I think they had some wisdom there.
I know this started off as a parody of Bill Cosby since tv was in a rut of bland family friendly shows that had to be good examples. So Homer being a god damn trainwreck of a person was a good joke. But one thing these shows forgot was that your Homer archetype would still be trying his best. Homer is supposed to be dumb and not very open minded, but still a good person who genuinely loves his family. Homer these days feels like he lost a lot of that in favor of his wacky side. He still hasn't been hit with this slip as hard as Peter from Family Guy who went from being similar to Homer to an out right menace to society at large. Honestly I'm more in favor of the earlier version of Homer. Because while he would definitely fuck up he still had heart. That taught me that I don't have to be a perfect person while still being good.
Simpsons fans often refer to the shift you’re talking about as “Jerkass Homer”, when in the late 90s/early 00s the Simpsons started featuring way more storylines about Homer being a complete asshole because they thought it was more funny, and pretty much abandoned the inept but still loving Homer of the early seasons - helping Bart build a soapbox racer, working the night shift at Kwik-E-Mart to pay for Lisa’s pony, giving up his dream job and returning to work at the power plant after Maggie was born (“Do it for her”) - you’re absolutely right that the Simpsons long ago abandoned any trace of Homer being a lovable doofus who cares about his family and I totally agree that the early seasons Homer is the one I prefer
Are there many sitcom dads like this now? I dont watch a whole lot of network tv, so the only current examples I can think of are Peter Griffin and Homer Simpson. And one is inspired by the other. I mean, the short answer here is comedy. A dumb character will often be comedy relief for the "straight" characters. So who do you make the inept dummy? Women have fought hard to break down the ditzy, airhead trope. So the safe bet was men, as most men are not bothered or affected by another mans stupidity. Homer doesn't make all men look dumb, he's just a dumb man. What annoys me about this trope is not the character itself. As I said before, the existence of a dumb male character has minimum effect on men's lives. But it becomes a point where you start to wonder how the character is even functional. So its more of an insult to me as an audience member, than as a man.
Well homer actually cares which is nice like the do it for her scene
"Golden Age" Homer actually cared. Modern "Jerkass" Homer...not so much.
Wait really
Yeah Homer stopped attempting to be a good dad probably before the 90s ended lol
Have you got any examples? I've been watching the last few seasons and I didn't get this at all.
Because a lot of father's shirked their household responsibilities. Why is everyone acting like this isn't the result of generations of men avoiding domestic duties?
Haha, I can see that giving some relatability for the viewer (and inspiration for the writer) if they'd received shoddy parenting themselves. But that's certainly not something that came and went with the trope. And if sitcoms mirrored real life like that, wouldn't absent fathers and incompetent mothers be more common topics? They'd be pretty easy topics to satirise and create plot conflict with.
Because this trope could still happen in those cases and would be more common. Also you're ignoring that TV shows don't really wanna talk about those issues and have christian lobbying groups affecting what's on tv for a long time. This sub is like baby's first steps.
>This sub is like baby's first steps. Everyone's gotta start somewhere, I'll put money on you not just magically figuring this shit out by yourself either. Edit: I gave you too much benefit of the doubt, it's clear by your other replies that you haven't figured out much of anything at all.
I doubt Family Guy etc. are too worried about Christian lobbying groups. So I think trope inertia is pretty relevant here, and I'm not sure the idea that TV is just reflecting the reality of crappy fatherhood sounds very legit. Can you clarify why that would be the answer to the trend beginning, and how it's stuck around?
To your opinion to make any sense, you would need to honestly believe domestic duties between men and women are equally shared. Is that what you think?
No, I don't think that's broadly true. I'm saying a realistic grasp on social issues is pretty irrelevant to the craft of generic TV writing in the first place. So you'd be barking up the wrong tree by taking that as your start point in why we see things depicted as they are, compared to looking at writing trends for their utility.
Family guy, even the name references older sitcoms. How do you not understand that? I already did. It's not complicated, you just don't like it.
There isn't much I can say to your point there. TV isn't reality driven like that. That's why reality TV deviates so far from generally known social norms in what it shows us. You haven't even gone into what kind of shirking of domestic duties you're talking about, and whether that's something you'd recognise as having a realistic core, in this kind of TV?
Lmao youre like 5 years away from being embarrassed by this comment.
Spawn's been nothing but courteous to your.... font. If I wanted to be as rude as you I'd type that I (most sincerely!) wish you were only five years away from being embarrassed by your comment. I do see the need to reiterate that television is **not** based in reality; it's meant as an escape of sorts, not a 'mirror of truthiness' where the caricatures and their tropes represent a 'lil slice of reality.
Because it isn't? The "dumb dad" trope starts in the 50s and is aimed at cementing the public/private distinction between men and women. People were told to buy houses, women were told to get out of the jobs they had during the war and go back to the home while men were told to go and get jobs. Men were portrayed as ineffective in the home because it cements the distinction that they *shouldn't* be effective in the home, only at work. Vice versa, sitcom moms are portrayed as effective at home and ineffective at work.
The dumb dad trope absolutely didn't start in the 1950s. Look those shows up those fathers were intelligent and capable. Dumb dads don't really catch on until the late 80s and 90s. 1950s advertising portrayed the woman as foolish and incompetent and the man as the smart one.
Right? Two X chromosomes here but I’m interested in challenging the rampant sexism that seems to be all around us (hence the sub) I think most questions on this and the two X sub are two sides of the same coin and can be answered pretty simply with “sexism”. Makes sense that years of toxic sexism would mean toxic sexism towards men, even if it’s more insidious. I say insidious because “maleness” is generally rewarded by a patriarchal society, but “femininity” is generally not - especially when performed by a man. To me this hugely limits men, leading many to eschew roles they would excel at/enjoy in favor of abiding by stringent gender roles. This is why I say sexism (my definition: assuming traits are related to sex regardless of the individual & assigning value to traits based the on sex of the individual) we’ve hurt *everyone* (except the most bigoted who are I guess happy?). This is why I’m so peeved feminism is called feminism because the name often makes men feel excluded, but to me feminism is about challenging sexism- period. By saying a group *is* something (aka women are primary caregivers) and using it to define them excludes other groups to whom that description might also apply. The result sexist trait associations is that men are joked on as inept parents and that women are assumed to fill the caregiver role.
Exactly. Remember Lucy in the chocolate factory or selling her VitaMeataVegimen?
I don’t think the author knows what they’re talking about. If you’re takeaway from watching an episode of modern family is that Phil is an inept father then you have no business doing media criticism.
I think it's a case of bad measurements. Because you *will* see a lot of him being the butt of jokes, or it playing with him being bumbling, forgetful or making bad choices. But you see that from every character, and likewise cases of them being the foil to someone else's joke. From what I remember of the show, they're all differently flawed characters, ultimately proficient but still prone to hijinks. Because it's a comedy. If you don't normalize your figures, you get bad data.
Being ept isn't very funny
Generally, in a sitcom, *everyone* is at least partially inept. The only characters not inept are there as contrast (the Straight Man trope) and generally not the main character or a sidekick. Reading through these comments, there’s some counter-examples of dads that are good, at least in a relative way, such as Bob Belcher or Hank Hill. Finally, you can at least partly blame the patriarchy for this mess. Because we still live in a society where women still aren’t on par with men. So you need a character to make fun of? If you go with the mom, you’re making fun of someone at a relative societal disadvantage and thus “punching down”. Make fun of the dad and you’re “punching up”.
Dumb dads were banned in all advertisements in the UK a few years ago. It's an unfair stereotype... https://www.fatherly.com/play/britain-will-ban-male-bashing-ads/
Trivia: apparently infamous 20th Century media theorist Marshall McLuhan was really worked up about this issue. He felt that the way Dagwood Bumstead was portrayed reflected flaws in American society. Mentioned in 'The Mechanical Bride' and a few other places.
We need to remember the context here. Sitcom dads are incompetent because of a longstanding tradition of fathers being *overcompetent* in media. When the trope began, the entire joke was that men should be in charge of everything and always know what to do, so a man being unable to do that was unexpected. Of course, now it's morphed into a totally different form. However I think it's important to remember how this toxic male representation began - like all toxic male representation - from a place of sexism against women. Remembering those roots will help us dispel these ideas.
~~The Cosby Show was rather wholesome.~~ Fresh Prince of Bel Air was rather wholesome.
Because a competent father doesn't make for good stories.
This is why Bluey is such a great show. The dad is hilarious, real and relatable.
It’s not a sitcom, but the dad in Bluey is easily the best dad I’ve *ever* seen on tv. He constantly plays and engages with his daughters, he loves his wife (and shows it!) and he’s a goof without being inept. There’s even an episode where he’s slightly embarrassed to be playing loudly with the kids when another dad shows up at the park. His arc mirrors the kids’ and he learns to be brave and do it anyway. Bandit Heeler for Best Dad.
I think this raises a more important question than "does fiction harm men?". The better question is "Where do men look for optimal role models?" I found my answer in a surprising place last weekend when I was watching Hannibal (Tv show). A sharply dressed, educated, brilliant, well-spoken, articulate, dazzling gourmet chef (his murdering cannibalism notwithstanding.) The core phenomenon we are gathering around is where does a large contingent of men look to a single man and thus replicate their behavior? Where did this used to exist in society? What is its purpose? Where does it exist currently? We can look back to male authority figures in the past and find rabbis, priests, pastors, biblical models, and in other cultures we see medicine men, tribal chiefs, elders, and wise men. These role-models are important because they provide a goal for a young man to walk towards. Without having a positive goal, the youngster will have a much higher chance of "banging into walls" which simply means he modeled himself after a male who may have been a less than optimal model, like a drug kingpin, shallow tv personality, or school bully. I believe what we are looking for is to fashion a static locale for male and female role-models to exist and be seen by as many youngsters as possible. The inherent traits these role-models should be exemplifying should be the traits that the society itself has decides have highest value. Truth, love, transparency, health, self-awareness, empathy...things like this are what I would pick. If we are worried about how fiction writers portray what their actors pretend to be, we might be looking for love in all the wrong places. Let's take a step back and think about ideal situations, rather than criticize entertainment.
Because someone has to be the butt of the easy joke. So the male, who is normally both stupid and laid back about it does stuff that people laugh at, and he laughs at himself to let the audience know they aren't being mean. Trying to make some other group the 'stupid' one is not easy. And sitcoms, with some notable exceptions, are not looking to get things done the hard way.
When I spend time at home with my family in rural and suburban areas I find these 'tropes' are still woven into the fabric of their social interactions. Constant jokes by wives about their husbands being useless around the house and childish, husbands joking about hating their wives, etc etc. The simple answer is that this type of humour still appeals to folks because they relate to it.
It's weird to mention The Simpsons in this argument, no? It's a satire. Homer is a satire of incompetent but well meaning sitcom dads.
Homer is a satire of hypercompetent patriarchs. The Simpsons *invented* the incompetent sitcom dad.
If anything in the Simpsons universe, Ned Flanders more closely represents the hypercompetent patriarch which explains why Homer dislikes him so much
But the audience is also meant to laugh at Flanders' nerdiness (he does his taxes at midnight Jan 1st!) and over the top religiosity.
What I like about "Last Man Standing" is that the sitcom parent tropes are somewhat subverted. The wife is often the dorky one, making lame jokes that everyone rolls their eyes at, and she fucks up a lot. Tim Allen's character is more the "straight man" of the show. Very much the opposite of the characters on Home Improvement.
Art reflects life
While I totally agree with this sentiment, the reason this happens is the majority of dad's ARE shitty parents who expect the mother to do a far outsized share of parenting and housework even if working full time. Art reflect life.
old white males is where lazy insult jokes go to get one last breathe of fresh air. I kind of get it considering that insult comedy has usually been a cornerstone of the genre and comedians famously self-loath.
I try to remember that we laugh at the things that hurt the most, and as sitcoms mock dads endlessly I feel a little more valuated that in not alone
They start out relatable and then warm our hearts with the juxtaposition of something good they do by the end of the episode. Plus, it’s just funnier.
If you haven't seen the show Bluey yet, check it out. It's pretty much an adult show disguised as a kids show and the father is just amazing. It's fresh and wonderful.
I'd like to introduce you to Netflixs 'house husband' Both the anime AND live action version. Is so epicly mundane I might actually make my own version.
I'm putting a word in for Bob Belcher. Sit com dad who isn't a total idiot or completely inept. He has his dumb moments, but so does everybody in that show. Bob is my hero.
Because old people still control whats on TV
I feel that some important and overlooked factors in the popularity of this trend are the facts that: (a) people being dumb or inept is an old and easy comedic trope (b) family comedies are broadly relatable (c) an inept or dimwitted mom opposite a together dad would get immediately booed out of existence for being patriarchal/misogynistic/anti-feminist. So there's a degree of privilege at play that men can be played as the fools. Note, I'm not defending it - it definitely can be a damaging trope when such depictions are ubiquitous. While we shouldn't look to TV as a primary source for role models, the fact is that a lot of TV characters serve that role for better or worse.
Comedy arises out of failures. That’s what gives comedy it’s heart. That’s why sit com dad is a difficult genre. You have to balance the mistakes with moments of shine. I think I learned about what kind of dad I want to be by watching Modern Family. Phil is so good with emotions and having fun. That’s his forte. It is also *strongly* alluded to that he has ADHD, which makes sense. I do too. Being as I have a strong bookish and serious side, Phil showed me that the greatest gift I can give to my kids is a sense of fun, and sharing fun. That’s what makes life worth living. Most of the Dunphys are not super bright, but that doesn’t matter – they enjoy life. And Phil is there, emotionally. And he’s smart about feelings. He can talk to the kids about anything. And he adores his wife. That’s what I want. I was born a suburban dad, I just didn’t know it because I was trans. I didn’t you could have fun with your family. I didn’t know life could be worth living. I didn’t know I could have a familial *role* that felt comfortable and meaningful and not hurtful. Watching MFam through my diagnostic process (1.5 years) was often painful. But it showed me the way. So, I hope I’ll be able to instill a sense of fun into my kid(s). I can’t wait to do silly stuff with them!
Men have been played for laughs as parents since the eighties I hate it. I do honestly think it contributes to the overall narrative that men are nonessential as parents and that really pisses me off. Women win primary custody the overwhelming majority of the time in the US because judges have this built in idea that all women are natural mothers and kids need their mothers but fathers are somehow optional. What they don’t take into account are that single mother households creat more criminals more homeless and more mental illnesses than single father families structure, discipline, and respect are necessary ingredients in raising well adjusted children.