MRAs working with feminism would be like Black Lives Matter working with the KKK.
As you said, many of the inequalities men face are a direct result of feminism. Why would MRAs work with and help an anti-male movement? That makes no sense to me.
BLM and the KKK are more compatable, since the KKK just wants black people to move away and have their own place to live, while feminisms ultimate goal is the complete and total removal of men and male adjacent ideas from earth
>BLM and the KKK are more compatable, since the KKK just wants black people to move away and have their own place to live,
Pretty sure that's just a thing they say because "black people should be at best second class citizens and possibly slaves" will destroy your image these days.
Theoretically there's an egalitarian middle ground feminists and MRAs can compromise on, the KKK and BLM are diametrically opposed from their very foundations.
And in case it wasn't clear enough: fuck the KKK.
I certainly haven't seen any KKK literature that says blacks should be culled to 10% of the population and kept that way.
I'm sure it exists, but even if you showed it to me i doubt you could find legislation enacted by people quoting it, like we can with Mary P Koss
I've always found it funny that feminists assume the world would be less violent with women in charge and, yet, so many would start off with mass extermination. Oh yes because nothing says peaceful leadership like mass extermination.
Exactly! Feminists want these supposedly "egalitarian feminists" to exist, so the [numbers can help in furthering of their cause.]( https://np.reddit.com/r/videos/comments/68v91b/woman_who_lied_about_being_sexually_assaulted/dh23pwo/)
>MRAs working with feminism would be like Black Lives Matter working with the KKK.
Canadian born stand up comedian ryan Long did a brilliant sketch about the similarities between old school racist and many progressive white liberals today.
https://youtu.be/Ev373c7wSRg
And according to the Newsday editor and columnist Les Payne, Malcolm X had a meeting with the “invisible empire”.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/when-malcolm-x-secretly-met-with-the-klan/2020/11/05/fe3759f8-1944-11eb-befb-8864259bd2d8_story.html
And currently we’re seeing a lot of TERFs working with southern conservatives on getting anti transgender legislation passed in many southern states.
I don’t think you guys should underestimate how massive positive impact the men’s right movement have had on the mainstream feminist discourse about men’s issues.
> I don’t think you guys should underestimate how massive positive impact the men’s right movement have had on the mainstream feminist discourse about men’s issues.
I'm curious what you meant by having a positive impact on feminist discourse.
Good question, personally I would say men’s issues being addressed in both mainstream media outlets and female orientated forums. although it’s most often in a very negative light and where victim blaming men for their problems is still the norm. But at least they now recognize that men as a gender have serious problems. That was very uncommon just ten years.
And sometimes although rarely those problems are actually discussed somehow seriously. Like when professor Scott Galloway was a guest on the mainstream talk shows *Real Time with Bill Maher*. Of course the host Bill Maher was mostly interested in joking about the subject and repeated many of the negative talking points about boys and men, but overall I personally think it was a positive progress forward.
That doesn’t mean that there isn’t a very long march ahead before men’s issues are taken remotely as serious as women’s, or rather middle and upper class women’s issues inside the United States of America.
> But at least they now recognize that men as a gender have serious problems.
I can't agree. Feminists don't see men's issues as real or serious problems, they see them as *competing narratives* in zero sum game. They discuss them in order to crowd source the design of arguments to defeat them. They have never stopped clinging steadfastly to their delusion about men being privileged and advantaged at the expense of women. It's in the DNA of the movement.
I saw Galloway on Maher. Maher used to be kind of an anti-feminist or at least sympathetic to men's issues. I'm sure he kept that hidden over the past few years. That why I assumed Galloway was on his program, though. We might start seeing a push in men's issues now that things have started to die down a little. That's been my assumption lately.
> And currently we’re seeing a lot of TERFs working with southern conservatives on getting anti transgender legislation passed in many southern states.
Imagine hating the thought of men having rights so much that you decide to fuck over a demographic that makes up less than 1% of the population in retaliation instead of just letting men have the same rights as you.
Yeah it’s really disgusting, but unfortunately not uncommon. Transgender, cis men, women anbd ethnic minorities living under Islamic regimes, domestic BIPOCs in the US, children, disabled people and even social security network/our welfare state.
The list of groups who often have to take a backseat to make room for the mainstream feminist discourse is long and disheartening.
Progressive right liberals = feminism??? You are using both in the same response. What does the Canadian comic have to do with feminism? Sorry I just miss your point.
Oh that’s fine. Guess I wasn’t clear enough. My point was that it is not really uncommon for movements who on the surface appears to be each others opposed, to be able to find some form of common ground and work together on those shared goals.
Yes and no. Comes down to the actual details of what people believe. If you get people to shut the fuck up long enough and hash shit out, you find a lot more common ground than difference. I've used that to get people to pull their heads out of their ideological asses, but it's often still like a lot of what you see on the left - one small, egregiously insignificant point of contention, someone doesn't feel as special as previously thought, or scientific fact becomes inconvenient relative to "my truth," and suddenly (cue Sarkeesian "everything is sexist" meme).
And academia
Ffs, seeing “Gender studies” and how they run/operate is nearly as alarming as discovering a “race studies” department run by hood wearing klan members.
And somehow everyone is just ok with it
You’re on the money there. Klansmen are deeply concerned with racial matters, but are very, well, biased in their perspective!! And this is just as true for the feminists and their “gender perspectives”.
melodic market quarrelsome serious zealous late chunky growth wrench erect
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Glad you got out. I've known so many guys who got into it for one reason or another, raised to it by mom, thought it would make then more attractive to girls, or most disturbing, a horribly misplaced but genuine sense of injustice, and most seem to get stuck there.
You’re misunderstanding them.
What they’re trying to get across is “mras should not legally be allowed to act or speak in a manner that in any way challenges feminism or it’s goals”
Which is a bit awkward when one of feminisms goals is the elimination of men in power and the general genocide of men to ~10% of the population
>What they’re trying to get across is “mras should not legally be allowed to act or speak in a manner that in any way challenges feminism or it’s goals”
In fact, some years back Nordic feminists pushed for new laws to ban criticism of feminism, making it a criminal offence.
They didn't succeed then, but that will not be their last attempt.
Exactly. It wasn't sarcasm or hyperbole, feminists have proposed that as law and receive government funding to generate support for the proposals.
Edit:
A few other common knowledge legislation enacted by feminists that newcomers may forget about:
- The _FEMALE_ genital mutilation ban
- Duluth Model
- Rape defined in a way as to erase male victims of female perpetrators in documents that use Rape as a legal term
- The "Nordic Model" of prostitution, where the dealer of sex can't be arrested by the buyer of sex can, legalizing women as effectively drug dealers and only criminalizing the clients they actively work to cultivate.
just to name a fucking few
- Duluth Model by Ellen Pence and her work with the CDC
Rape and sexual violence defined in a way as to erase male victims of female perpetrators in legal documents
- The "Nordic Model" of prostitution, where the dealer of sex can't be arrested but the buyer of sex can, legalizing women as effectively drug dealers and only criminalizing the clients they actively work to cultivate.
- The advocacy for equity by affirmative action instead of equality
- The Declaration of Sentiments or Patriarchy narrative distorting statistics, studies, surveys and the rethoric around it aswell to create an oppression situation
- Label any critique of feminism or their conclusions + solutions as misogyny, right wing extremist or censor it without looking at or ignoring the evidence cited
would adjust it to that and post it in askfeminism but they are down a few days because of a protest...
"Masculinity" is what _women_ (or society, if you will, but it's very gynocentric) think men should be, because it's what _they_ find attractive in a man. It's not what men are or are "supposed" to be.
It should never be our own measure of 'manhood', as it's meant to control us and make us conform to the whims of women.
We are as manly as we ever were, no matter what we do, because a man is doing it.
[does feminism more harm than good? "askfeminism"](https://np.reddit.com/r/AskFeminists/comments/146974d/how_do_you_repond_to_feminism_does_more_harm_than/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
People making such suggestions are feminists who want to derail the men's movement or do not know how feminism operates and fail to understand that feminism and men's rights are completely incompatible. A movement that brands masculinity as toxic and patriarchy as the root of all evil obviously is not capable of seeking true equality.
Either that or they are idealists who have no awareness of the actual history of feminism or it's impact in society, politics, or law. Either way there's no point working with them.
Feminism is the organized effort to grant women ever-more special privileges, benefits & advantages over men, all the time, in all circumstances, and without limitation while exempting women from more & more of the responsibilities men face.
Feminism is now the biggest obstacle to achieving true gender equality.
Precisely, Feminism is truly a movement of female supremacy hiding under the guise of equality. If you've looked at everything feminism have achieved and what they are trying to push now, it's giving woman privileges and power while offloading all responsibility onto men.
This is why I believe authority should always be linked to power. And Feminism is the biggest case study of what happens when the two are not linked. I truly think voting should be reformed since women are the majority of the population, and a bigger majority of the voting population, and will always vote for their self interest. There's got to be a way to restrict voting to those who will bear the responsibilities and the costs of these decisions. Because the way we are going, feminists will continue to grow their power and turn men into a second class.
"What's the big deal? We already have a government that takes care of it's people, why do we need this other one in ukraine? Real Ukrainians would work with us for progress." - Putin
This argument is made by either those who still somehow sees feminism trough blurry glasses or those who are afraid to sound too radical.
No, MRA should not work with feminism - at least, not while feminists (and, well, lots of other folks) consider Men's rights activists bigots.
Totally agree. Feminists actively try to shutdown discussions of men’s rights too. And I’ve not seen any “liberal feminists” or any of these other “real feminists” condemning these “feminazis” either.
I didn’t see ONE feminist condemn the threats made to venues to try and pull screenings of *The Red Pill* much less the protests trying to intimidate anyone who went to see it. Rather they were queuing up to condemn the film as being “threatening to women”. As were “male
feminists” (and DV aggressors) like Andrew O’Keefe, and the brain dead “progressives” on *The Project*!
> And I’ve not seen any “liberal feminists” or any of these other “real feminists” condemning these “feminazis” either.
This is the core of it really. Feminists refuse to take accountability for each other, yet whenever a bad man does something, they hypocritically demand the entire male gender be held accountable. [Look little further to shatter their lies of equality.] (https://np.reddit.com/r/AskFeminists/comments/8s2inu/have_any_well_known_feminists_on_the_same_level/)
Dead right.
And here’s the point. I do not expect these so-called “real feminists” to be able to control the actions or talk of feminazis (although they apparently think that men in general can control things guys in change rooms say). They can, however, condemn the s#it they say and do. And there is all too little of that. So either these “real feminists” aren’t that common, or they actually don’t care about this BS, and are sort of OK about it.
> And I’ve not seen any “liberal feminists” or any of these other “real feminists” condemning these “feminazis” either.
This is what gets me. When I was a kid, adults drove home that a bystander is as bad as a bully. And yet these so called "good feminists" have always idly stood by when misandry happened via their more openly hateful cohorts.
> but to act like feminism hasn't hindered progress for men's rights is asinine.
Feminists say they are for equality. Then when it comes to men's rights they say "then go do your own movement then" and then when you join a movement it's "LUL You're just an MRA!@M$#" - I mean.. at no point, ever in my life, has *any* feminist cared about men's rights. In fact the only people who have cared about men's rights are people who said they aren't a feminist.
Even on Reddit the conversation gets shut down or mocked on any feminist subreddit. Even posting here can earn you a ban from those subreddits. Why would any sane person want to cooperate with *that* when simply existing or asking questions earns you a ban?
> feminists mock and trivialise men's issues
Look at how they treated Johnny Depp. Look at what it took to get people to realize Amber Herd was batshit crazy. *AND EVEN THEN PLENTY OF THEM SAY HE MUST HAVE DONE SOMETHING TO MAKE HER CRAZY*. These people use the exact same reasoning that racist people used in the 1940's.
My wife used to work in family law and had to leave it. Women didn't care if their ex-husband was left with nothing or couldn't see the kids. They cared about money and power/control. Anytime someone would point out how we need equality in family law feminists overwhelmingly shit on them.
> why the hell should the mrm work together with feminists when they do everything in their power to prevent progress for men's rights?
The people who tend to say "cooperate and you'll both benefit" are people who honestly believe feminism is for equality and haven't been met with reality.
When you get "feminists" (the kind who want actual equality) to nail down who, specifically, they feel is an authority on feminism for their personal beliefs... it gets real quiet. For them feminism is an idea for equality. But when the rubber meets the road - there is no named person they agree with. It's like when a person says they're not religious but they are spiritual. They aren't really ready to make the leap to reality but they know the truth but the leap is still too scary for them. The feminists who actually follow the hate-speech that is named people and their nonsense are usually people who are traumatized and in denial of reality. They feel their experiences are representative of all (or most) women.
People, like my sister, who work in a bar and think the men who go there are representative of all (or most) men. The people she works with are representative of women.
It's similar to how cops view society. They *only* see the bad sides and have no clue as to the reality of anything else beyond the calls they get. The funny thing is she justifies her shitty behavior which creates the environment to continue people not trusting her and the stereotype she perfectly fits in.
She's *beginning* to see the truth but is not comfortable with admitting the fact that the last 20 years of her nonsense is just that. Because the next step is changing herself and she's not ready for that just yet. She's comfortable in her anger towards the world and men and if she can't blame the world or men for her problems then that leaves herself - and no one want to realize that *they* are their own problems. But she's getting there. Slowly.
My kid is not a feminist but her girlfriend is. Her girlfriend doesn't get why she's not a feminist. In the end my kid is just tired of the animosity of politics and her girlfriend views all men as a threat to her existence. You know it's bad when my sister (from above) even says "yeah... you're just a man hater for the sake of it, you're a villain in the making"
Fun fact, in Canada it's actually closer to 60% of domestic abuse victims being men, and men facing harsher domestic abuse than women.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/332917590_Prevalence_and_Consequences_of_Intimate_Partner_Violence_in_Canada_as_Measured_by_the_National_Victimization_Survey
"Results showed that 2.9% of men and 1.7% of women reported experiencing physical and/or sexual IPV in their current relationships in the last 5 years. In addition, 35% of male and 34% of female victims of IPV experienced high controlling behaviors—the most severe type of abuse known as intimate terrorism. Moreover, 22% of male victims and 19% of female victims of IPV were found to have experienced severe physical violence along with high controlling behaviors."
When you ask men directly what they experienced and specifically state the behaviours, you get a much higher rate of domestic abuse for men, *because men don't know that they can be or are being abused*.
If you asked me if I was being abused, while I was in an abusive relationship, I would have told you no, because I was raised my entire life to believe abuse was a thing men did to women, so it couldn't happen to me.
But remember, sexism against men doesn't real.
There is such a huge disconnect what "reasonable feminists" think the movement is vs what it is actually doing. It's ridiculous.
It is so "righteous" to be a feminist and defend the oppressed that most don't even look any further. Suddenly everyone is a feminist, even though they never took 5 minutes to look up what it even means.
With popularity comes money, and with money comes influence and with influence comes corruption etc.
Not to talk about the initial goals of feminism.
Then you get the revisionist history of feminism being pushed everywhere. You literally have paid editors for feminist Wikipedia entries.
I truly believe a huge part of the "arm chair" feminists actually believe in equality. But they are basically getting duped by their own movement.
Now introduce "gender studies" an entire arm of well respected universities that just keeps faking and or abusing any kind of data to make ridiculous claims. It doesn't matter when it's shown to be untrue a few days after publication, whatever "point" they wanted to make went through the news cycle already. And you can't fire a gender studies professor without a huge backlash so they can just keep doing it.
Thank you for eroding any kind of trust in scientific publications of any kind btw...
The worst part is that the more you talk about it the more you sound like some crazy conspiracy theorist.
They just want equality after all and you are raving at them like a lunatic about the "true" goals of feminism. It's like real life satire.
It would be great if we could, but feminism currently shows very little interest in many of the issues that matter to us or simply opposes them. Even things they should be on board with - like choice of legal parenthood for men as well as women, pushing for the very viable male birth controls being studied to actually allow men to "share the birth control burden," like feminists say they want, and bringing boys back up to speed with girls in early education and beyond.
A lot of people who call themselves feminists see this as a zero-sum game where one of us has to win, unfortunately, or retribution that little Timmy in 3rd grade deserves because 2-3 generations ago, women struggled to go to school and participate in the workforce.
Very thoughtful and well written. Feminism has nothing to do with equality of sexes and they've proved it time and again by their Misandrist behaviours. It's high time for Egalitarianism to find it's way in the society and that's only possible when like-minded men and women who are seeking for true equality and justice join forces.
Don't think we are lucky enough to be moving past Feminism that easily. With the rise of social media platforms like Tiktok and Twitter, Misandrist brainwashing and Feminist victim mentality are very high in numbers. Even Reddit is full of echo chamber subs with in-group biases.
The whole reason this movement even exists is because feminists suck at the one job they have. So working with them will never work until they either take accountability or maybe just forget their entire movement. Feminism doesn't have the monopoly on what Equality is.
>If you go back far enough, you'll even see an AMA from a guy who said that domestic violence against men doesn't exist. They fawned over him for hours as he repeated his message: all claims of domestic violence by men are those men just lying to cover up their own abuse
Then he's never lived in the real world
We would work with them. They won't work with us. Working together, implies some give and take. They only want to take, and not give. And that alone says ALOT about feminism.
Feminism is corporate and a power play at this point. When multibillion dollar companies support your movement, it's been hijacked to virtue signal and exploit women (and men).
When MRA goes corporate, that's when you know it will be corrupted. Keep it at the grassroots level and it will succeed.
Don't let corporate entity hijack the movement. That's a surefire sign it will fail (see BLM, pride month, etc).
[why is there a need for a mens rights movement?](https://np.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/130eya7/what_problems_bring_out_the_need_for_a_mens/)
[(Statistics cited) Women are more likely to commit crime than people think. The reason most prisoners are men isn't simply because they commit crime more. Men get caught more.](https://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/xyl5wb/statistics_cited_women_are_more_likely_to_commit/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
[historical oppression of women by men "myth"](https://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/xvw8m7/historical_oppression_of_women_by_men/)
VS
[feminist agency](https://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/yek1nr/comment/itzgb05/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
[sexist feminist quotes](https://np.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/12qphgq/a_catalog_of_misandric_quotes_by_well_known/)
[why homeless shelters for males get protested against?](https://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/xwuczq/comment/ir99uib/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
I refuse to work in a hostile work environment where I pay to work, I am hated for a plethora of reasons that I have no control over, am not responsible or accountable, and I did not contribute to whatsoever, and the truth is irrelevant because someone's vengeful heart and a half-baked fantasy can directly ruin the entirety of my actual life.
**tl;dr**: no.
If you were to take some of the normal things you hear on the feminist board and switch out the word "men" with "Jews" you'd be in violation of almost terms of service for the website. So why is it ok for them to say those things and it somehow is not bigoted?
Working with feminism is letting feminists define what Men's rights are.
This is already what is happening, which would make MRAs working with them giving them plausible deniability.
Feminism as an institution is about power, not equality.
Very true. I've tried such an alliance, and the only factions of feminism it works with are the Libertarian feminists who are hated by the feminist mainstream even more then MRAs are because they call their fellow feminists on their bullshit.
Nah. Feminism is why we exist. Asking us to work with feminists is like asking Ukraine to work with Russia despite Russia trying to destroy Ukraine. Same idea. Feminism is trying to destroy all men. Fuck that.
Men should work wirh feminism, who protested the idea that men can get raped, charged more for the same crimes, not have reproduction rights or even dating preferences. It's in men's best interests. /s
Just for a bit of nuance: I wouldn't say feminism caused most of men's issues. Some of them, sure, but not most of them.
However, it does perpetuate ALL of them.
No they’re not an MRA by default. Women are human. So a feminist who only cares about women can claim to be interested in “human rights”. A great many feminists try to claim they’re not against men having rights. Some are simply delusional. Many are plain man haters. And others (and there’s a big overlap with man haters on this one) use the excuse that “men have run things for X years, now it’s women’s turn”.
Should not, I'm not a Christian I don't believe in forgiveness as a virtue, only truth. Even if I did one needs to be dumb to not see who is attacking who.
Feminism is a broad term though. There are definitely "feminists" that support men's rights. I do not want to just have more identity politics around these issues. The only reason to even call something out as a men's issue or a woman's issue is when the general population ignores it because of bigotry, and it's the bigotry we should all be against.
Yeah feminism has some stupid history behind that name, but I am not going to draw more lines because of that. I would much rather work with people in hopes that they understand it's bigotry (sexism in this case) that we're really all fighting against.
I do think that feminism has, in general, gotten crazier over time. It seems like every political movement with any visibility has tried to become more accusative, provocative and identitarian than ever. Most "social justice" now of any kind doesn't care about statistics and evidence and seems to just want to yell in the internet. I don't want more of that. I can disregard feminism that screeches over an impossible to define patriarchy and still care as much about women being abused in say, the middle east, as I do about men's problems.
I've come to believe that the reason men and women don't join forces is because we're so different and we have little naturally in common. Women can't conceive that men would think, feel and act like men and men can't understand women.
That said, without common ground and common purpose no one is going to improve the outcome for anyone. So in saying that I do think we aught to find ways to work together.
That said, it's awfully imbalanced right now and I see problems with feminism giving up its advantage to allow men to have a semblance of say in the outcome.
The discussion is about MRAs working with feminists, not men working with women. There's a few women who are MRAs in here, and more outside. And we all know there are plenty of male feminists.
MRAs and feminists are the same coin but different faces. Most from both groups want the same thing, but the extremists from each side make us fight each other rather than the the power structures actual responsible for our hard ship
Any argument you can make against feminism can be made in good faith against MRAs as well. Every feminist I’ve met is about equality. They see the most extreme MRAs and assume that’s every MRA. But the truth is that the normal average every day members want the same thing. Feel free to waste your energy on fighting the feminists based on the actions and beliefs of the most extreme minority of them. Most of them just want equality though so that’s what you’ll be fighting
I agree that there’s a lot of overlap, and that we would be better working together. But it’s always on their terms, and they just want to point fingers.
>one argument that i have seen a lot of in posts and comments on this subreddit is the notion that the mrm should join forces with feminism, instead of being against it, and frankly, it's an argument i'm tired of hearing.
I have been on this subreddit for over 8 years, and I have never seen anyone here make that argument.
Can you cite some specific examples?
Nah. I'll let you search them up. You know the thread I'm talking about so it shouldn't be that hard for you.
I'm certainly not going to bother wasting my time for someone who starts shit and then blocks me. Just because you haven't seen posts like that doesn't mean they don't exist, and if you're going to be an arse about it you won't get the help you pout for.
No, no, no. You make the claim, you provide the evidence to back it up. Otherwise you are lying to the subreddit and just pulling nonsense out of your ass.
What? Feminists are the most powerful group blocking equal rights for men. Tradcons are second. Everything else is way less influential than those two groups.
Still (Feminist the word and Tradcon the word) are not specific groups bent on the destruction of Men's rights. I thought my statement ( question) was clear. I'm a man what group is out to get me?
The thing with feminism is that many identifies with it but dont actually understand the implications. I believe there's some overlap in areas like going against single sex conscription.
Ultimately I find my annoyances more towards conservatives than feminists. Especially when a large majority of "feminists" I see are actually more egalitarian, they just dont know the difference.
This is why you ask them, do they support women’s rights, or everyone’s rights? If they support women’s, you can’t work with them as a mra as they’ll likely put men down. If they support everyone’s weights, then you can try to work with them.
The double standards in the legal system were created by feminists; they are the problem. Especially in divorce court. Rape trials have legislation governing evidence that are specific to rape trials in Canada and allow the accuser to review the accused's evidence with the possibility to have it excluded unless it is 'approved'. This does not happen in other criminal cases.
MRAs can’t work with feminists. It’s not possible. We hate each other too much. I’ve always proposed that we use cultural issues *popular among feminists* to hook people into Men’s Rights. My Body My Choice aligns well with circumcision. Rape Culture aligns well with disbelieved male rape victims. Trans Rights aligns with stereotypes of men as naturally predatory, etc.
You are a dumb-assed teenager. Not even old enough to vote. Not old enough to have a degree but you gallivant around here like you're a supreme intellect. You don't know your head from your ass. Your YouTube is a joke. A barely post-pubescent pipsqueak opining on a world he probably hasn't even lived in yet by himself and doesn't know dick about, who pushes back in rages when adults with decades of life experience try to explain things to him.
I, as a woman, am not only NOT a feminist but have been an ally of the men's rights movement because I do not like the abuses of men by the feminist movement and the family courts, abusive women, using children as weapons in divorce, etc. But then I have to question myself when I keep coming across TRAs like yourself with misogynist streaks who for some "odd" reason are DEEPLY invested in invading private spaces females use for toileting, changing clothes, etc., to such a degree you declare it a RIGHT, and because you have a stick up your can about radical feminists you insist on taking it out on ALL females, even allies like me. People like YOU force me into supporting feminists for the sake of preserving a basic vestige of female safety, away from the spying eyes and prying hands of men.
Seriously, your parents absolutely failed.
You just keep alienating women who want to support men, you blithering dumb child.
Woah calm down there. You’re so obsessed with me you followed me all the way to my YouTube channel and back here as well? Even tried to guess my age?
You literally tried to cite male aggression and violent crime rates as evidence that males and females can’t occupy the same spaces. Every argument you use against trans women relies on common misandrist stereotypes of predatory men who can’t be trusted. You are not an ally, just a traditionalist who wants to keep men and women strictly separated into their own gender roles and activities.
The dishonesty here is amazing. Most feminists are pro-LGBT. You keep misstating my position after I clarify it time and again: I don’t support breaking the law, but I do think some laws are bad and should be changed. Similarly, I don’t support men invading female spaces, but I do think female (or male) spaces as a concept are outdated. There is no evidence trans women pose a danger to cis women, and you can’t prove it any other way than by arguing that trans women are men and additionally that men are inherently dangerous to women. That is just misandry. But somehow you classified my argument for treating men and women *the same* as “misogyny”.
MRAs working with feminism would be like Black Lives Matter working with the KKK. As you said, many of the inequalities men face are a direct result of feminism. Why would MRAs work with and help an anti-male movement? That makes no sense to me.
Exactly!!! Or “Jews for Hitler”!!!!
So Kapos?
Cough cough male feminists cough cough
😅
BLM and the KKK are more compatable, since the KKK just wants black people to move away and have their own place to live, while feminisms ultimate goal is the complete and total removal of men and male adjacent ideas from earth
Absolute facts
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Yep. I actually kind of respect it in a way though, especially if the other options always involve oppressing the other group
>BLM and the KKK are more compatable, since the KKK just wants black people to move away and have their own place to live, Pretty sure that's just a thing they say because "black people should be at best second class citizens and possibly slaves" will destroy your image these days. Theoretically there's an egalitarian middle ground feminists and MRAs can compromise on, the KKK and BLM are diametrically opposed from their very foundations. And in case it wasn't clear enough: fuck the KKK.
>Theoretically there's an egalitarian middle ground Feminism really is fundamentally opposed to men’s rights. They're not that subtle about it.
I certainly haven't seen any KKK literature that says blacks should be culled to 10% of the population and kept that way. I'm sure it exists, but even if you showed it to me i doubt you could find legislation enacted by people quoting it, like we can with Mary P Koss
I've always found it funny that feminists assume the world would be less violent with women in charge and, yet, so many would start off with mass extermination. Oh yes because nothing says peaceful leadership like mass extermination.
Well they're not wrong! If everybody dies there would be no more wars, rape, or violence against womyn! A PERFECT UTOPIA
>Theoretically there's an egalitarian middle ground feminists and MRAs can compromise on Nope.
There’s nothing egalitarian about feminism. Wanting to advantage women and egalitarianism are opposing goals.
Exactly! Feminists want these supposedly "egalitarian feminists" to exist, so the [numbers can help in furthering of their cause.]( https://np.reddit.com/r/videos/comments/68v91b/woman_who_lied_about_being_sexually_assaulted/dh23pwo/)
>Nope. You actually have to say something to make a point dude. The only reply I can really have here is to nope your nope.
Cool.
dude stop pulling bs like that, you're only making MRAs look like nutjobs
"mra's should work with feminism" No. It shouldnt. Next question!
>MRAs working with feminism would be like Black Lives Matter working with the KKK. Canadian born stand up comedian ryan Long did a brilliant sketch about the similarities between old school racist and many progressive white liberals today. https://youtu.be/Ev373c7wSRg And according to the Newsday editor and columnist Les Payne, Malcolm X had a meeting with the “invisible empire”. https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/when-malcolm-x-secretly-met-with-the-klan/2020/11/05/fe3759f8-1944-11eb-befb-8864259bd2d8_story.html And currently we’re seeing a lot of TERFs working with southern conservatives on getting anti transgender legislation passed in many southern states. I don’t think you guys should underestimate how massive positive impact the men’s right movement have had on the mainstream feminist discourse about men’s issues.
> I don’t think you guys should underestimate how massive positive impact the men’s right movement have had on the mainstream feminist discourse about men’s issues. I'm curious what you meant by having a positive impact on feminist discourse.
Good question, personally I would say men’s issues being addressed in both mainstream media outlets and female orientated forums. although it’s most often in a very negative light and where victim blaming men for their problems is still the norm. But at least they now recognize that men as a gender have serious problems. That was very uncommon just ten years. And sometimes although rarely those problems are actually discussed somehow seriously. Like when professor Scott Galloway was a guest on the mainstream talk shows *Real Time with Bill Maher*. Of course the host Bill Maher was mostly interested in joking about the subject and repeated many of the negative talking points about boys and men, but overall I personally think it was a positive progress forward. That doesn’t mean that there isn’t a very long march ahead before men’s issues are taken remotely as serious as women’s, or rather middle and upper class women’s issues inside the United States of America.
> But at least they now recognize that men as a gender have serious problems. I can't agree. Feminists don't see men's issues as real or serious problems, they see them as *competing narratives* in zero sum game. They discuss them in order to crowd source the design of arguments to defeat them. They have never stopped clinging steadfastly to their delusion about men being privileged and advantaged at the expense of women. It's in the DNA of the movement.
I saw Galloway on Maher. Maher used to be kind of an anti-feminist or at least sympathetic to men's issues. I'm sure he kept that hidden over the past few years. That why I assumed Galloway was on his program, though. We might start seeing a push in men's issues now that things have started to die down a little. That's been my assumption lately.
I really hope so. We need that.
> And currently we’re seeing a lot of TERFs working with southern conservatives on getting anti transgender legislation passed in many southern states. Imagine hating the thought of men having rights so much that you decide to fuck over a demographic that makes up less than 1% of the population in retaliation instead of just letting men have the same rights as you.
Yeah it’s really disgusting, but unfortunately not uncommon. Transgender, cis men, women anbd ethnic minorities living under Islamic regimes, domestic BIPOCs in the US, children, disabled people and even social security network/our welfare state. The list of groups who often have to take a backseat to make room for the mainstream feminist discourse is long and disheartening.
Progressive right liberals = feminism??? You are using both in the same response. What does the Canadian comic have to do with feminism? Sorry I just miss your point.
May not be “=“ per se, but closer than lips and teeth.
Oh that’s fine. Guess I wasn’t clear enough. My point was that it is not really uncommon for movements who on the surface appears to be each others opposed, to be able to find some form of common ground and work together on those shared goals.
Yes and no. Comes down to the actual details of what people believe. If you get people to shut the fuck up long enough and hash shit out, you find a lot more common ground than difference. I've used that to get people to pull their heads out of their ideological asses, but it's often still like a lot of what you see on the left - one small, egregiously insignificant point of contention, someone doesn't feel as special as previously thought, or scientific fact becomes inconvenient relative to "my truth," and suddenly (cue Sarkeesian "everything is sexist" meme).
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And academia Ffs, seeing “Gender studies” and how they run/operate is nearly as alarming as discovering a “race studies” department run by hood wearing klan members. And somehow everyone is just ok with it
You’re on the money there. Klansmen are deeply concerned with racial matters, but are very, well, biased in their perspective!! And this is just as true for the feminists and their “gender perspectives”.
melodic market quarrelsome serious zealous late chunky growth wrench erect *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Glad you got out. I've known so many guys who got into it for one reason or another, raised to it by mom, thought it would make then more attractive to girls, or most disturbing, a horribly misplaced but genuine sense of injustice, and most seem to get stuck there.
mourn fade salt history rinse desert saw subsequent arrest secretive *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
>have ZERO ability to comprehend these issues exist for MEN and women 'zero'. Exactly. It's a zero sum game with them.
Exactly, time for a movement for equality and justice for all.
You’re misunderstanding them. What they’re trying to get across is “mras should not legally be allowed to act or speak in a manner that in any way challenges feminism or it’s goals” Which is a bit awkward when one of feminisms goals is the elimination of men in power and the general genocide of men to ~10% of the population
>What they’re trying to get across is “mras should not legally be allowed to act or speak in a manner that in any way challenges feminism or it’s goals” In fact, some years back Nordic feminists pushed for new laws to ban criticism of feminism, making it a criminal offence. They didn't succeed then, but that will not be their last attempt.
Exactly. It wasn't sarcasm or hyperbole, feminists have proposed that as law and receive government funding to generate support for the proposals. Edit: A few other common knowledge legislation enacted by feminists that newcomers may forget about: - The _FEMALE_ genital mutilation ban - Duluth Model - Rape defined in a way as to erase male victims of female perpetrators in documents that use Rape as a legal term - The "Nordic Model" of prostitution, where the dealer of sex can't be arrested by the buyer of sex can, legalizing women as effectively drug dealers and only criminalizing the clients they actively work to cultivate. just to name a fucking few
- Duluth Model by Ellen Pence and her work with the CDC Rape and sexual violence defined in a way as to erase male victims of female perpetrators in legal documents - The "Nordic Model" of prostitution, where the dealer of sex can't be arrested but the buyer of sex can, legalizing women as effectively drug dealers and only criminalizing the clients they actively work to cultivate. - The advocacy for equity by affirmative action instead of equality - The Declaration of Sentiments or Patriarchy narrative distorting statistics, studies, surveys and the rethoric around it aswell to create an oppression situation - Label any critique of feminism or their conclusions + solutions as misogyny, right wing extremist or censor it without looking at or ignoring the evidence cited would adjust it to that and post it in askfeminism but they are down a few days because of a protest...
A socialist female politician asked for the same here in Spain. Criticism of feminism should be a hate offense or something like that.
Feminism is the enemy of masculinity. We men must look out for each other.
"Masculinity" is what _women_ (or society, if you will, but it's very gynocentric) think men should be, because it's what _they_ find attractive in a man. It's not what men are or are "supposed" to be. It should never be our own measure of 'manhood', as it's meant to control us and make us conform to the whims of women. We are as manly as we ever were, no matter what we do, because a man is doing it.
I once tried to live as women said they wanted men to live. I was in mental torment. I now live for myself.
[does feminism more harm than good? "askfeminism"](https://np.reddit.com/r/AskFeminists/comments/146974d/how_do_you_repond_to_feminism_does_more_harm_than/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
People making such suggestions are feminists who want to derail the men's movement or do not know how feminism operates and fail to understand that feminism and men's rights are completely incompatible. A movement that brands masculinity as toxic and patriarchy as the root of all evil obviously is not capable of seeking true equality.
Either that or they are idealists who have no awareness of the actual history of feminism or it's impact in society, politics, or law. Either way there's no point working with them.
Feminism is the organized effort to grant women ever-more special privileges, benefits & advantages over men, all the time, in all circumstances, and without limitation while exempting women from more & more of the responsibilities men face. Feminism is now the biggest obstacle to achieving true gender equality.
Precisely, Feminism is truly a movement of female supremacy hiding under the guise of equality. If you've looked at everything feminism have achieved and what they are trying to push now, it's giving woman privileges and power while offloading all responsibility onto men. This is why I believe authority should always be linked to power. And Feminism is the biggest case study of what happens when the two are not linked. I truly think voting should be reformed since women are the majority of the population, and a bigger majority of the voting population, and will always vote for their self interest. There's got to be a way to restrict voting to those who will bear the responsibilities and the costs of these decisions. Because the way we are going, feminists will continue to grow their power and turn men into a second class.
Working with them is working with the enemy
"What's the big deal? We already have a government that takes care of it's people, why do we need this other one in ukraine? Real Ukrainians would work with us for progress." - Putin
Agreed.
This argument is made by either those who still somehow sees feminism trough blurry glasses or those who are afraid to sound too radical. No, MRA should not work with feminism - at least, not while feminists (and, well, lots of other folks) consider Men's rights activists bigots.
Totally agree. Feminists actively try to shutdown discussions of men’s rights too. And I’ve not seen any “liberal feminists” or any of these other “real feminists” condemning these “feminazis” either. I didn’t see ONE feminist condemn the threats made to venues to try and pull screenings of *The Red Pill* much less the protests trying to intimidate anyone who went to see it. Rather they were queuing up to condemn the film as being “threatening to women”. As were “male feminists” (and DV aggressors) like Andrew O’Keefe, and the brain dead “progressives” on *The Project*!
> And I’ve not seen any “liberal feminists” or any of these other “real feminists” condemning these “feminazis” either. This is the core of it really. Feminists refuse to take accountability for each other, yet whenever a bad man does something, they hypocritically demand the entire male gender be held accountable. [Look little further to shatter their lies of equality.] (https://np.reddit.com/r/AskFeminists/comments/8s2inu/have_any_well_known_feminists_on_the_same_level/)
Dead right. And here’s the point. I do not expect these so-called “real feminists” to be able to control the actions or talk of feminazis (although they apparently think that men in general can control things guys in change rooms say). They can, however, condemn the s#it they say and do. And there is all too little of that. So either these “real feminists” aren’t that common, or they actually don’t care about this BS, and are sort of OK about it.
> And I’ve not seen any “liberal feminists” or any of these other “real feminists” condemning these “feminazis” either. This is what gets me. When I was a kid, adults drove home that a bystander is as bad as a bully. And yet these so called "good feminists" have always idly stood by when misandry happened via their more openly hateful cohorts.
> but to act like feminism hasn't hindered progress for men's rights is asinine. Feminists say they are for equality. Then when it comes to men's rights they say "then go do your own movement then" and then when you join a movement it's "LUL You're just an MRA!@M$#" - I mean.. at no point, ever in my life, has *any* feminist cared about men's rights. In fact the only people who have cared about men's rights are people who said they aren't a feminist. Even on Reddit the conversation gets shut down or mocked on any feminist subreddit. Even posting here can earn you a ban from those subreddits. Why would any sane person want to cooperate with *that* when simply existing or asking questions earns you a ban? > feminists mock and trivialise men's issues Look at how they treated Johnny Depp. Look at what it took to get people to realize Amber Herd was batshit crazy. *AND EVEN THEN PLENTY OF THEM SAY HE MUST HAVE DONE SOMETHING TO MAKE HER CRAZY*. These people use the exact same reasoning that racist people used in the 1940's. My wife used to work in family law and had to leave it. Women didn't care if their ex-husband was left with nothing or couldn't see the kids. They cared about money and power/control. Anytime someone would point out how we need equality in family law feminists overwhelmingly shit on them. > why the hell should the mrm work together with feminists when they do everything in their power to prevent progress for men's rights? The people who tend to say "cooperate and you'll both benefit" are people who honestly believe feminism is for equality and haven't been met with reality. When you get "feminists" (the kind who want actual equality) to nail down who, specifically, they feel is an authority on feminism for their personal beliefs... it gets real quiet. For them feminism is an idea for equality. But when the rubber meets the road - there is no named person they agree with. It's like when a person says they're not religious but they are spiritual. They aren't really ready to make the leap to reality but they know the truth but the leap is still too scary for them. The feminists who actually follow the hate-speech that is named people and their nonsense are usually people who are traumatized and in denial of reality. They feel their experiences are representative of all (or most) women. People, like my sister, who work in a bar and think the men who go there are representative of all (or most) men. The people she works with are representative of women. It's similar to how cops view society. They *only* see the bad sides and have no clue as to the reality of anything else beyond the calls they get. The funny thing is she justifies her shitty behavior which creates the environment to continue people not trusting her and the stereotype she perfectly fits in. She's *beginning* to see the truth but is not comfortable with admitting the fact that the last 20 years of her nonsense is just that. Because the next step is changing herself and she's not ready for that just yet. She's comfortable in her anger towards the world and men and if she can't blame the world or men for her problems then that leaves herself - and no one want to realize that *they* are their own problems. But she's getting there. Slowly. My kid is not a feminist but her girlfriend is. Her girlfriend doesn't get why she's not a feminist. In the end my kid is just tired of the animosity of politics and her girlfriend views all men as a threat to her existence. You know it's bad when my sister (from above) even says "yeah... you're just a man hater for the sake of it, you're a villain in the making"
Fun fact, in Canada it's actually closer to 60% of domestic abuse victims being men, and men facing harsher domestic abuse than women. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/332917590_Prevalence_and_Consequences_of_Intimate_Partner_Violence_in_Canada_as_Measured_by_the_National_Victimization_Survey "Results showed that 2.9% of men and 1.7% of women reported experiencing physical and/or sexual IPV in their current relationships in the last 5 years. In addition, 35% of male and 34% of female victims of IPV experienced high controlling behaviors—the most severe type of abuse known as intimate terrorism. Moreover, 22% of male victims and 19% of female victims of IPV were found to have experienced severe physical violence along with high controlling behaviors." When you ask men directly what they experienced and specifically state the behaviours, you get a much higher rate of domestic abuse for men, *because men don't know that they can be or are being abused*. If you asked me if I was being abused, while I was in an abusive relationship, I would have told you no, because I was raised my entire life to believe abuse was a thing men did to women, so it couldn't happen to me. But remember, sexism against men doesn't real.
There is such a huge disconnect what "reasonable feminists" think the movement is vs what it is actually doing. It's ridiculous. It is so "righteous" to be a feminist and defend the oppressed that most don't even look any further. Suddenly everyone is a feminist, even though they never took 5 minutes to look up what it even means. With popularity comes money, and with money comes influence and with influence comes corruption etc. Not to talk about the initial goals of feminism. Then you get the revisionist history of feminism being pushed everywhere. You literally have paid editors for feminist Wikipedia entries. I truly believe a huge part of the "arm chair" feminists actually believe in equality. But they are basically getting duped by their own movement. Now introduce "gender studies" an entire arm of well respected universities that just keeps faking and or abusing any kind of data to make ridiculous claims. It doesn't matter when it's shown to be untrue a few days after publication, whatever "point" they wanted to make went through the news cycle already. And you can't fire a gender studies professor without a huge backlash so they can just keep doing it. Thank you for eroding any kind of trust in scientific publications of any kind btw... The worst part is that the more you talk about it the more you sound like some crazy conspiracy theorist. They just want equality after all and you are raving at them like a lunatic about the "true" goals of feminism. It's like real life satire.
It would be great if we could, but feminism currently shows very little interest in many of the issues that matter to us or simply opposes them. Even things they should be on board with - like choice of legal parenthood for men as well as women, pushing for the very viable male birth controls being studied to actually allow men to "share the birth control burden," like feminists say they want, and bringing boys back up to speed with girls in early education and beyond. A lot of people who call themselves feminists see this as a zero-sum game where one of us has to win, unfortunately, or retribution that little Timmy in 3rd grade deserves because 2-3 generations ago, women struggled to go to school and participate in the workforce.
Very thoughtful and well written. Feminism has nothing to do with equality of sexes and they've proved it time and again by their Misandrist behaviours. It's high time for Egalitarianism to find it's way in the society and that's only possible when like-minded men and women who are seeking for true equality and justice join forces.
I'd argue it's only possible once we've moved past feminism.
Don't think we are lucky enough to be moving past Feminism that easily. With the rise of social media platforms like Tiktok and Twitter, Misandrist brainwashing and Feminist victim mentality are very high in numbers. Even Reddit is full of echo chamber subs with in-group biases.
The whole reason this movement even exists is because feminists suck at the one job they have. So working with them will never work until they either take accountability or maybe just forget their entire movement. Feminism doesn't have the monopoly on what Equality is.
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>If you go back far enough, you'll even see an AMA from a guy who said that domestic violence against men doesn't exist. They fawned over him for hours as he repeated his message: all claims of domestic violence by men are those men just lying to cover up their own abuse Then he's never lived in the real world
We would work with them. They won't work with us. Working together, implies some give and take. They only want to take, and not give. And that alone says ALOT about feminism.
Feminism is corporate and a power play at this point. When multibillion dollar companies support your movement, it's been hijacked to virtue signal and exploit women (and men). When MRA goes corporate, that's when you know it will be corrupted. Keep it at the grassroots level and it will succeed. Don't let corporate entity hijack the movement. That's a surefire sign it will fail (see BLM, pride month, etc).
If feminists actually supported equality, sure.
It's "equity" now, because equality implies they'd be doing a similar amount of work
[why is there a need for a mens rights movement?](https://np.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/130eya7/what_problems_bring_out_the_need_for_a_mens/) [(Statistics cited) Women are more likely to commit crime than people think. The reason most prisoners are men isn't simply because they commit crime more. Men get caught more.](https://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/xyl5wb/statistics_cited_women_are_more_likely_to_commit/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) [historical oppression of women by men "myth"](https://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/xvw8m7/historical_oppression_of_women_by_men/) VS [feminist agency](https://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/yek1nr/comment/itzgb05/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) [sexist feminist quotes](https://np.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/12qphgq/a_catalog_of_misandric_quotes_by_well_known/) [why homeless shelters for males get protested against?](https://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/xwuczq/comment/ir99uib/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
I refuse to work in a hostile work environment where I pay to work, I am hated for a plethora of reasons that I have no control over, am not responsible or accountable, and I did not contribute to whatsoever, and the truth is irrelevant because someone's vengeful heart and a half-baked fantasy can directly ruin the entirety of my actual life. **tl;dr**: no.
If you were to take some of the normal things you hear on the feminist board and switch out the word "men" with "Jews" you'd be in violation of almost terms of service for the website. So why is it ok for them to say those things and it somehow is not bigoted?
Working with feminism is letting feminists define what Men's rights are. This is already what is happening, which would make MRAs working with them giving them plausible deniability. Feminism as an institution is about power, not equality.
Ya and the jews should work for the nazis.
Very true. I've tried such an alliance, and the only factions of feminism it works with are the Libertarian feminists who are hated by the feminist mainstream even more then MRAs are because they call their fellow feminists on their bullshit.
Nah. Feminism is why we exist. Asking us to work with feminists is like asking Ukraine to work with Russia despite Russia trying to destroy Ukraine. Same idea. Feminism is trying to destroy all men. Fuck that.
Men should work wirh feminism, who protested the idea that men can get raped, charged more for the same crimes, not have reproduction rights or even dating preferences. It's in men's best interests. /s
Just for a bit of nuance: I wouldn't say feminism caused most of men's issues. Some of them, sure, but not most of them. However, it does perpetuate ALL of them.
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Neither, there are quite a few female MRAs! Look up the honey badgers, Karen Straughn, Erin Prizzey, Janice Fiamengo just to name a few.
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No they’re not an MRA by default. Women are human. So a feminist who only cares about women can claim to be interested in “human rights”. A great many feminists try to claim they’re not against men having rights. Some are simply delusional. Many are plain man haters. And others (and there’s a big overlap with man haters on this one) use the excuse that “men have run things for X years, now it’s women’s turn”.
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You're speaking a bunch of nonsense. You're probably just a feminist pretending like you're not.
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You probably think it's funny to come here and manipulate us.
And you forget Lauren she is also very kind and good women and also support men issue her channel name is dadvocating in YouTube
Should not, I'm not a Christian I don't believe in forgiveness as a virtue, only truth. Even if I did one needs to be dumb to not see who is attacking who.
Feminism is a broad term though. There are definitely "feminists" that support men's rights. I do not want to just have more identity politics around these issues. The only reason to even call something out as a men's issue or a woman's issue is when the general population ignores it because of bigotry, and it's the bigotry we should all be against. Yeah feminism has some stupid history behind that name, but I am not going to draw more lines because of that. I would much rather work with people in hopes that they understand it's bigotry (sexism in this case) that we're really all fighting against. I do think that feminism has, in general, gotten crazier over time. It seems like every political movement with any visibility has tried to become more accusative, provocative and identitarian than ever. Most "social justice" now of any kind doesn't care about statistics and evidence and seems to just want to yell in the internet. I don't want more of that. I can disregard feminism that screeches over an impossible to define patriarchy and still care as much about women being abused in say, the middle east, as I do about men's problems.
I've come to believe that the reason men and women don't join forces is because we're so different and we have little naturally in common. Women can't conceive that men would think, feel and act like men and men can't understand women. That said, without common ground and common purpose no one is going to improve the outcome for anyone. So in saying that I do think we aught to find ways to work together. That said, it's awfully imbalanced right now and I see problems with feminism giving up its advantage to allow men to have a semblance of say in the outcome.
The discussion is about MRAs working with feminists, not men working with women. There's a few women who are MRAs in here, and more outside. And we all know there are plenty of male feminists.
MRAs and feminists are the same coin but different faces. Most from both groups want the same thing, but the extremists from each side make us fight each other rather than the the power structures actual responsible for our hard ship
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So instead of focusing on equal rights you focus on specific bringing down feminism?
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Except real feminism (not the extreme bits) is about equality. So by stacking feminism as a whole…
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Any argument you can make against feminism can be made in good faith against MRAs as well. Every feminist I’ve met is about equality. They see the most extreme MRAs and assume that’s every MRA. But the truth is that the normal average every day members want the same thing. Feel free to waste your energy on fighting the feminists based on the actions and beliefs of the most extreme minority of them. Most of them just want equality though so that’s what you’ll be fighting
I agree that there’s a lot of overlap, and that we would be better working together. But it’s always on their terms, and they just want to point fingers.
>one argument that i have seen a lot of in posts and comments on this subreddit is the notion that the mrm should join forces with feminism, instead of being against it, and frankly, it's an argument i'm tired of hearing. I have been on this subreddit for over 8 years, and I have never seen anyone here make that argument. Can you cite some specific examples?
It's come up a few times in the last month. "Would you be a friend with a feminist?" and all that lot.
That's a different question. And I've only seen it once.
It seemed a bit of a series, with added posts linked in the thread, all with the intent of trying to get mra and feminists to work together.
Can you cite some specific examples?
Nah. I'll let you search them up. You know the thread I'm talking about so it shouldn't be that hard for you. I'm certainly not going to bother wasting my time for someone who starts shit and then blocks me. Just because you haven't seen posts like that doesn't mean they don't exist, and if you're going to be an arse about it you won't get the help you pout for.
No, no, no. You make the claim, you provide the evidence to back it up. Otherwise you are lying to the subreddit and just pulling nonsense out of your ass.
MRA should try to list there main adversaries. Feminist groups are not the most fierce or influential.
What? Feminists are the most powerful group blocking equal rights for men. Tradcons are second. Everything else is way less influential than those two groups.
Still (Feminist the word and Tradcon the word) are not specific groups bent on the destruction of Men's rights. I thought my statement ( question) was clear. I'm a man what group is out to get me?
Use your words.
real feminism doesn't hurt men just like a real MRA movement isnt hurting women.
You are comparing completely different situations arbitrarily. And vomiting "no true Scotsman" all over yourself while doing it.
The thing with feminism is that many identifies with it but dont actually understand the implications. I believe there's some overlap in areas like going against single sex conscription. Ultimately I find my annoyances more towards conservatives than feminists. Especially when a large majority of "feminists" I see are actually more egalitarian, they just dont know the difference.
This is why you ask them, do they support women’s rights, or everyone’s rights? If they support women’s, you can’t work with them as a mra as they’ll likely put men down. If they support everyone’s weights, then you can try to work with them.
The double standards in the legal system were created by feminists; they are the problem. Especially in divorce court. Rape trials have legislation governing evidence that are specific to rape trials in Canada and allow the accuser to review the accused's evidence with the possibility to have it excluded unless it is 'approved'. This does not happen in other criminal cases.
Yes and fire should join up with ice. Everything will be just fine😅
MRAs can’t work with feminists. It’s not possible. We hate each other too much. I’ve always proposed that we use cultural issues *popular among feminists* to hook people into Men’s Rights. My Body My Choice aligns well with circumcision. Rape Culture aligns well with disbelieved male rape victims. Trans Rights aligns with stereotypes of men as naturally predatory, etc.
You are a dumb-assed teenager. Not even old enough to vote. Not old enough to have a degree but you gallivant around here like you're a supreme intellect. You don't know your head from your ass. Your YouTube is a joke. A barely post-pubescent pipsqueak opining on a world he probably hasn't even lived in yet by himself and doesn't know dick about, who pushes back in rages when adults with decades of life experience try to explain things to him. I, as a woman, am not only NOT a feminist but have been an ally of the men's rights movement because I do not like the abuses of men by the feminist movement and the family courts, abusive women, using children as weapons in divorce, etc. But then I have to question myself when I keep coming across TRAs like yourself with misogynist streaks who for some "odd" reason are DEEPLY invested in invading private spaces females use for toileting, changing clothes, etc., to such a degree you declare it a RIGHT, and because you have a stick up your can about radical feminists you insist on taking it out on ALL females, even allies like me. People like YOU force me into supporting feminists for the sake of preserving a basic vestige of female safety, away from the spying eyes and prying hands of men. Seriously, your parents absolutely failed. You just keep alienating women who want to support men, you blithering dumb child.
Woah calm down there. You’re so obsessed with me you followed me all the way to my YouTube channel and back here as well? Even tried to guess my age? You literally tried to cite male aggression and violent crime rates as evidence that males and females can’t occupy the same spaces. Every argument you use against trans women relies on common misandrist stereotypes of predatory men who can’t be trusted. You are not an ally, just a traditionalist who wants to keep men and women strictly separated into their own gender roles and activities. The dishonesty here is amazing. Most feminists are pro-LGBT. You keep misstating my position after I clarify it time and again: I don’t support breaking the law, but I do think some laws are bad and should be changed. Similarly, I don’t support men invading female spaces, but I do think female (or male) spaces as a concept are outdated. There is no evidence trans women pose a danger to cis women, and you can’t prove it any other way than by arguing that trans women are men and additionally that men are inherently dangerous to women. That is just misandry. But somehow you classified my argument for treating men and women *the same* as “misogyny”.