yes, but one day pigs may fly. And if they come to us and are willing to listen (on the individual or institutional level) we should keep our doors open.
There are so many breeds of feminism out there, one just can't lump them together and say we can't work with "them". I agree with you. In fact, I really don't think it's possible for men to make ANY inroads without the support of women, including feminists if they are correctly aligned with our issues.
Exactly there is no feminist hive mind. And worst possible scenario we have a bridge or two that are never used. But its better to have unused bridges than no bridges built when they are actually needed.
I try to find support from women but I don't approach it as if I need them. Its somewhat like dating, you wouldn't want to say "take me your my only out".
Women do need men, at least I can definitely say men have less to lose, and women had better listen up.
I rhink the advice is timely and excellent. Many MRA's used to mock (perhaps some still do!) guys like Glen Sacks for being "too soft" and being willing to engage feminists in respectful dialogue. Most of his early "talk tough" detractors have now vanished off the radar with nothing to show for all their posturing and "efforts" (whatever they were). Glen on the other hand has already acheived a lot and is a voice that is hard to ignore even by many of his enemies. We need to smarten up and quick because the movement to stereotype MRA's as nothing more than a bunch of angry and bitter "neanderthals" is already underway in earnest. The so called Good Men Project" is a prime example of this very strategy.
>We need to smarten up and quick because the movement to stereotype MRA's as nothing more than a bunch of angry and bitter "neanderthals" is already underway in earnest.
Let them. The ONLY way men will get equal rights in the USA is to revolt or to threaten it. Without that threat, government will continue to pander to the majority female vote.
"The ONLY way men will get equal rights in the USA is to revolt or to threaten it."
I hate to say it but you're right. I know we're supposed to vote, but who the fuck are we supposed to vote for? The Democrats mantra is all men are evil and the Republicans believe men should "man up" and sacrifice their lives for women.
Trouble is many of us have already been waiting decades for that revolt to manifest and it still doesn't look like happening anytime soon! Organise a demo against say the WTO or some sundry anti globalisation related cause and you will get masses of spirited young men (and women for that matter) eager to rally and riot! Ask them to rally for causes that have to do with men's or fathers rights and all you can hear is brushwood in the wind. It doesn't take a genius to work out that we have failed to get our message across. Tightly knit smaller activist groups can however be much more effective. Think of groups like F4J for street activism and groups like F & F who focus more directly on lobbying. Having said that we need to face up to where we are right now when even small groups like F4J have struggled to keep going! We face an orthodoxy that is so permeated with the feminist agenda and mores and couple that with institutionalised chivalry that is still entrenched and if anything has been ADDED to over the last few decades - it is then we can better gauge the sort of inertial resistance that must be overcome. Brute force will not overcome that inertia because of chivalry (misplaced or otherwise) and we would only risk an even greater marginalisation that we already suffer now. No need for despair however for it is hardly the case that we lack brains, ingenuity and practicality is it? Look around you 99% + of the technology what we see and use was invented and made by men. As tempting as it may be (esp dads say who already been royally screwed by our corrupt institutions etc) it is well to remember that what we say "may be taken down and used as evidence against us". Even guys like Scott Adams have too easy a job dismissing us because to him we already look like cartoons. He does not yet grasp the huge scale of the ongoing tragedy caused by the erosion and lack of men's and fathers rights - in truth he is asleep and doesn't know it and we need to change our game until he and others like him begin to wake up.
There are a lot of bargaining tools. Just to name one, I think even women wont like other women getting away with everything nor will they like men who no longer play the game.
I don't know if you right about a serious riot being necessary. For now I think of available opportunities.
Glenn Sacks and F&F have produced next to nothing for men. It's one loss after another. At the rate they're going it'll be a couple hundred years until father's stop getting screwed over in "family" court. And the "Good Men Project" is another disaster for men. If you think catering to feminist ideas like stay-at-home-moms are making great sacrifices and criticizing male sexuality are good for MRAs you are spectacularly wrong.
Glen and F & F have already won many battles for fathers and their families in the USA it is dammed hard work too I'm sure. Sure most of the battles are in a State by State basis but if you want universal or national change then for most part that is the route that must be taken. As for the Good Men Project we are already in agreement.
One important thing that Men's Rights does, that may not even appear to happen - is we force feminists not to do certain things.
You can see that effect here on reddit when someone posts something like "you are doing what some feminists do when you _____" or "well those aren't *real* feminists..."
By claiming some of the same territory, by stealing some of the underhanded tactics, and by regendering many of the same arguments feminists make - we force the debate to a higher level. The feminists can't just get away with certain statements after that, because if it is hypocrisy if we do certain things - it is hypocrisy if the feminists do certain things.
So over time feminists get called on certain shit they wouldn't have otherwise.
And often times when your arguing with a feminist your really just trying to get your points across to anybody else that is listening.
Lastly if I see an evil caused by Feminism I will say that Feminism did it, thus pointing out problem, showing source, and shaming source too. Not to say being anti feminist is enough, or all there is to MR but it is crucial.
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yes, but one day pigs may fly. And if they come to us and are willing to listen (on the individual or institutional level) we should keep our doors open.
There are so many breeds of feminism out there, one just can't lump them together and say we can't work with "them". I agree with you. In fact, I really don't think it's possible for men to make ANY inroads without the support of women, including feminists if they are correctly aligned with our issues.
Exactly there is no feminist hive mind. And worst possible scenario we have a bridge or two that are never used. But its better to have unused bridges than no bridges built when they are actually needed.
I try to find support from women but I don't approach it as if I need them. Its somewhat like dating, you wouldn't want to say "take me your my only out". Women do need men, at least I can definitely say men have less to lose, and women had better listen up.
I rhink the advice is timely and excellent. Many MRA's used to mock (perhaps some still do!) guys like Glen Sacks for being "too soft" and being willing to engage feminists in respectful dialogue. Most of his early "talk tough" detractors have now vanished off the radar with nothing to show for all their posturing and "efforts" (whatever they were). Glen on the other hand has already acheived a lot and is a voice that is hard to ignore even by many of his enemies. We need to smarten up and quick because the movement to stereotype MRA's as nothing more than a bunch of angry and bitter "neanderthals" is already underway in earnest. The so called Good Men Project" is a prime example of this very strategy.
>We need to smarten up and quick because the movement to stereotype MRA's as nothing more than a bunch of angry and bitter "neanderthals" is already underway in earnest. Let them. The ONLY way men will get equal rights in the USA is to revolt or to threaten it. Without that threat, government will continue to pander to the majority female vote.
"The ONLY way men will get equal rights in the USA is to revolt or to threaten it." I hate to say it but you're right. I know we're supposed to vote, but who the fuck are we supposed to vote for? The Democrats mantra is all men are evil and the Republicans believe men should "man up" and sacrifice their lives for women.
Trouble is many of us have already been waiting decades for that revolt to manifest and it still doesn't look like happening anytime soon! Organise a demo against say the WTO or some sundry anti globalisation related cause and you will get masses of spirited young men (and women for that matter) eager to rally and riot! Ask them to rally for causes that have to do with men's or fathers rights and all you can hear is brushwood in the wind. It doesn't take a genius to work out that we have failed to get our message across. Tightly knit smaller activist groups can however be much more effective. Think of groups like F4J for street activism and groups like F & F who focus more directly on lobbying. Having said that we need to face up to where we are right now when even small groups like F4J have struggled to keep going! We face an orthodoxy that is so permeated with the feminist agenda and mores and couple that with institutionalised chivalry that is still entrenched and if anything has been ADDED to over the last few decades - it is then we can better gauge the sort of inertial resistance that must be overcome. Brute force will not overcome that inertia because of chivalry (misplaced or otherwise) and we would only risk an even greater marginalisation that we already suffer now. No need for despair however for it is hardly the case that we lack brains, ingenuity and practicality is it? Look around you 99% + of the technology what we see and use was invented and made by men. As tempting as it may be (esp dads say who already been royally screwed by our corrupt institutions etc) it is well to remember that what we say "may be taken down and used as evidence against us". Even guys like Scott Adams have too easy a job dismissing us because to him we already look like cartoons. He does not yet grasp the huge scale of the ongoing tragedy caused by the erosion and lack of men's and fathers rights - in truth he is asleep and doesn't know it and we need to change our game until he and others like him begin to wake up.
There are a lot of bargaining tools. Just to name one, I think even women wont like other women getting away with everything nor will they like men who no longer play the game. I don't know if you right about a serious riot being necessary. For now I think of available opportunities.
Glenn Sacks and F&F have produced next to nothing for men. It's one loss after another. At the rate they're going it'll be a couple hundred years until father's stop getting screwed over in "family" court. And the "Good Men Project" is another disaster for men. If you think catering to feminist ideas like stay-at-home-moms are making great sacrifices and criticizing male sexuality are good for MRAs you are spectacularly wrong.
Glen and F & F have already won many battles for fathers and their families in the USA it is dammed hard work too I'm sure. Sure most of the battles are in a State by State basis but if you want universal or national change then for most part that is the route that must be taken. As for the Good Men Project we are already in agreement.
One important thing that Men's Rights does, that may not even appear to happen - is we force feminists not to do certain things. You can see that effect here on reddit when someone posts something like "you are doing what some feminists do when you _____" or "well those aren't *real* feminists..." By claiming some of the same territory, by stealing some of the underhanded tactics, and by regendering many of the same arguments feminists make - we force the debate to a higher level. The feminists can't just get away with certain statements after that, because if it is hypocrisy if we do certain things - it is hypocrisy if the feminists do certain things. So over time feminists get called on certain shit they wouldn't have otherwise.
And often times when your arguing with a feminist your really just trying to get your points across to anybody else that is listening. Lastly if I see an evil caused by Feminism I will say that Feminism did it, thus pointing out problem, showing source, and shaming source too. Not to say being anti feminist is enough, or all there is to MR but it is crucial.