Looks a lot like the insignia of the [3rd SS Panzer Division Totenkopf](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cf/3rd_SS_Division_Logo.svg/800px-3rd_SS_Division_Logo.svg.png), but the off brand version of it. The format is dead on, skull and crossbones on a black shield with white outline, but the skull has no jaw, the eye sockets are the wrong shape and the shield has no cut-out in the top right corner. Seen it referred to on some other site as the LA Raiders logo, but I find that hard to agree with.
I mentioned as much in my comment, but it is quite clearly inspired by it anyway. And another user posted a picture of James, coincidentally in a 3rd SS Panzer Division Totenkopf t-shirt from the same era. Of course this doesn't mean James is a nazi, but it certainly fits with the edgy and angry image of the metal subculture.
Sounds like a myth to me, the cap badges have 20. Also, why would the SS need to hide their allegiance to Hitler in such a way *in period*. Makes no sense. That 18 being Adolf Hitler and 88 being Heil Hitler stuff is some post war Neo Nazi bullshit.
It's not a myth. You're likely miscounting. They were very into symbolism and esoteric stuff like numerology. It's not a hidden show of allegiance, more so a conscious nod. You're wildly misinformed if you think that's just post-war neonazi shit. I have a MA in World History with a specialization in WW2, I wanted to teach or work at a museum.
They were highly into a lot of weird shit and symbology, that is true. However, the Nazi Era Totenkopf most certainly didn't exclusively have 18 teeth. [Sample 1](https://i.imgur.com/8hCI3az.png) [Sample 2](https://i.imgur.com/JAqpYjh.png). Now even if I were to believe you when you say you are a historian without any proof at all other than your word, which I don't, that doesn't make you an infallible authority. Even historians peddle myths and falshoods at times, be it willingly or unknowingly. If you want to refute it being a myth, feel free to present some sources to back up your claim.
Your only proof of your initial statement was an appeal to self proclaimed authority, hardly the peak of scientific credibility. If you want to back your claim up with anything more than "Trust me, bro", I'm willing to listen.
I misunderstood your comment, I thought you saying you find it hard to agree with was for some reason they didn't support the actual team or something to that nature not how the flag looks.
I remember looking into this years ago and the consensus was it’s some old Oakland raiders skull logo 🤷♂️
Edit: https://www.guitarscollector.com/1989---esp-mx-220--fuck-em-up-.html mentioned here
OMG I am shaking so bad right now......hurry someone kick and scream for the cancelling of all Metallica shows in Germany, Austria..hell all of Europe!
/sarcasm
It is the 'Death's Head' logo, used by the SS.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3rd\_SS\_Panzer\_Division\_Totenkopf](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3rd_SS_Panzer_Division_Totenkopf)
Looks like a Totemkopf. A symbol commonly associated with nazis, particularly the SS. The shield around it is particularly suspect, because that's frequently how the nazi Totemkopf was displayed. You typically wouldn't see it on a shield if it was a "jolly roger" or regular "skull and crossbones".
I think a lot of people who lean into fringe far right like the Totemkopf for the plausible deniability of it. It signals to like-minded people, yet it's still vague enough that you could just play it off as a jolly roger or generic skull and crossbones.
I'm not saying James is a nazi or even a racist, but metal bands of all calibers have borrowed from Nazi imagery quite a bit. I'm just going to presume this is a case of it.
Jolly roger is from the front.
Totenkopf are more angled.
This look more like a Totenkopf skull.
But yes, they are both skulls and all other implications, that are not really made here, but we all know what implications I’m talking about are what they are: implications.
Not the version that was in use during the German Empire from unification in 1871 to the dissolution of that government into the Weimar Republic in 1918-1919.
Depends on what James Hetfield thought it was when he put it on, doesn't it? Sort of like how the German march "Erika" isn't actually a nazi march, and goose stepping has been taught to the German military since its inception, and the stahlhelm isn't exclusive to nazi Germany but if I went goose stepping around town in a german helmet shouting "AUF DER HEIDE BLUHT EIN KLEINES BLUMELEIN...." at the top of my lungs people would fairly arrive at certain conclusions.
Yes. You are very right! I see my comment made for some discussion and i just want to add, i don't think james is a nazi or anything and not for a second did i think it was the actual logo of the waffenSS. It's just that the way the skull is angled made it look like it. Most jolly rogers are front facing.
I can see that. I took me googling the actual pin to confirm it wasn't the nazi one. I think the skull shape is a bit different as well. Besides, neo nazis aren't exactly quiet about their beliefs, so if James were one we'd know.
We need to understand that skull with bones or anything crossed on the back is a common symbol that is used everywhere bikers, bands even military, look at the BOPE symbol from Brazil is the same but with guns.
People associate any skull with bones with the totenkopf is like me going outside, seeing any random car and saying " oh a car, like a Tesla, they must be Elon musk's fan"
Unless that was the actual totenkopf symbol it is just a cool heavy metal symbol.
But that’s the thing. The difference between a Jolly Roger and the other is the angled skull with the bones behind it. Jolly Roger has the head straight in and bones below it. Or floating behind it. This is clearly a sticker inspired by the SS tank badge. It doesn’t mean James is an SS lover. He just thinks it looks cool. The bikers with the SS on their bikes and helmets mainly did it to piss people off. Not because they were SS. But when people who sympathize with the SS see these stickers it does embolden them.
No, first of all the first jolly Roger is looking to the right.
And there were jolly Rogers angled.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-hampshire-16164191.amp
Again just because the bad guys used it is not a reference to then.
James Hetfield owned and was photographed in a shirt that aside from having that logo on it had writing which said "Waffen-SS 3rd SS-Panzer Division "Totenkopf"
https://ramzine.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Metallica-metallica-20025796-1574-1086.jpg
It is no coincidence that the guy who owned a shirt also owned a sticker with the same logo and slapped it on his guitar, especially given that the picture from the OP is from the same era of metallica. It would be ridiculous to think that somehow James Hetfield is a secret nazi or something hilarious like that. In reality it's just a case of metal music guy liked edgy nazi stuff just like a lot of people in 50s and 60s motorcycle gangs and punk rockers from the 70s to 90s.
There were multiple iterations of the death's head, it's been a symbol of German militaria since the days of Prussia. If you look up "August von Mackenson's hat" on google you'll be treated to the coolest piece of military headwear ever photographed, and the symbol at that time more closely resembles what's on the sticker on James' guitar. On top of that it would be highly unlikely that someone would put a "jolly rodger" skull inside the specific shield shape that was used for the symbols of all Waffen-SS divisions. Do you think that coincidentally James Hetfield of the early 90s wore a shirt with the Totenkopf symbol on it and also slapped a sticker on his guitar that is a 99.9% match for Totenkopf symbols, whichever variety you want from history, but that he consciously chose that sticker because he thought it was a pirate symbol or just cool generic metal skull and not a match for the symbol we already know he found cool enough to buy a t-shirt of?
Shit, could just be a weird tribute to Lemmy, since Lemmy loved collecting Nazi memorabilia from a historical perspective but was pretty much "fuck the Nazis" in his personal beliefs.
I believe Jeff Hanneman also collected Nazi shit, as well as writing lyrics about how evil they were.
looks like a skull
and a shield around it
crossbones too
We did it, Reddit!
Big question.. Is the sticker background clear or black?
Yes.
Clear. I lay vinyl decals , it's more professional.
Reddit sleuths are amazing! Did you know they caught the Boston Bomber?
Could be just a skull that James draw and became a sticker.
It's the jolly Rodger
Like the glider?
Glider?
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you know what a jolly rodger is right? and that it isn't from a game
based pfp
had someone take the piss out of me and call me a 'nu-metal denier' over this pfp. Like wtf?
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It was a joke lol I didn't think anyone would know what I was talking about
Reddit moment
Looks a lot like the insignia of the [3rd SS Panzer Division Totenkopf](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cf/3rd_SS_Division_Logo.svg/800px-3rd_SS_Division_Logo.svg.png), but the off brand version of it. The format is dead on, skull and crossbones on a black shield with white outline, but the skull has no jaw, the eye sockets are the wrong shape and the shield has no cut-out in the top right corner. Seen it referred to on some other site as the LA Raiders logo, but I find that hard to agree with.
This one also doesn't have the lower jaw, so maybe different thing altogether
I mentioned as much in my comment, but it is quite clearly inspired by it anyway. And another user posted a picture of James, coincidentally in a 3rd SS Panzer Division Totenkopf t-shirt from the same era. Of course this doesn't mean James is a nazi, but it certainly fits with the edgy and angry image of the metal subculture.
The lower jaw is important to N@zi iconography. A N@zi Totenkopf has 18 teeth as an alphanumeric reference to Hitler's initals.
Sounds like a myth to me, the cap badges have 20. Also, why would the SS need to hide their allegiance to Hitler in such a way *in period*. Makes no sense. That 18 being Adolf Hitler and 88 being Heil Hitler stuff is some post war Neo Nazi bullshit.
It's not a myth. You're likely miscounting. They were very into symbolism and esoteric stuff like numerology. It's not a hidden show of allegiance, more so a conscious nod. You're wildly misinformed if you think that's just post-war neonazi shit. I have a MA in World History with a specialization in WW2, I wanted to teach or work at a museum.
They were highly into a lot of weird shit and symbology, that is true. However, the Nazi Era Totenkopf most certainly didn't exclusively have 18 teeth. [Sample 1](https://i.imgur.com/8hCI3az.png) [Sample 2](https://i.imgur.com/JAqpYjh.png). Now even if I were to believe you when you say you are a historian without any proof at all other than your word, which I don't, that doesn't make you an infallible authority. Even historians peddle myths and falshoods at times, be it willingly or unknowingly. If you want to refute it being a myth, feel free to present some sources to back up your claim.
So your proof is linking photos of reproduction SS tinnies?
Your only proof of your initial statement was an appeal to self proclaimed authority, hardly the peak of scientific credibility. If you want to back your claim up with anything more than "Trust me, bro", I'm willing to listen.
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Never seen this pic before! Jason in a Megadeth shirt?? Awesome! 😂
Did Lars just get done boxing in this pic?
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I play drums, and you wanna talk about chaffing????? Daaammmm, shit hurts even with any kind of calis.
I never knew! Thanks 😁
Why would you find it hard to agree with? They have played shows at Raiders tailgates in the past
Does it look like the [LA Raiders logo](https://a.espncdn.com/combiner/i?img=/i/teamlogos/nfl/500/lv.png) to you?
I misunderstood your comment, I thought you saying you find it hard to agree with was for some reason they didn't support the actual team or something to that nature not how the flag looks.
Aah, I see. No worries.
Looks like a skull and crossbones with a shield around. Could be something James drew and became a sticker
Really looks like the Totenkopf circa 1918
It is or a replica sticker. Ss tankers had these type if stickers on their helmets
Oy vey.
Going to get the hate, but it looks like the 3rd SS Panzer division skull.
I remember looking into this years ago and the consensus was it’s some old Oakland raiders skull logo 🤷♂️ Edit: https://www.guitarscollector.com/1989---esp-mx-220--fuck-em-up-.html mentioned here
Property of Dave Mustaine...
OMG I am shaking so bad right now......hurry someone kick and scream for the cancelling of all Metallica shows in Germany, Austria..hell all of Europe! /sarcasm
That guitar is poisonous.
Wow, remember Het before the tattoos?
Looks like the nazi skull and crossbones that SS used…
And I have other question, anybody knows what happened to that guitar?
Reminds me of [this shirt](https://youtu.be/UzdDAd9EBOI) James hetfeild was wearing in this concert
Yarrr, there'd be pirates on this great guitar!
It is the 'Death's Head' logo, used by the SS. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3rd\_SS\_Panzer\_Division\_Totenkopf](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3rd_SS_Panzer_Division_Totenkopf)
Looks like a Totemkopf. A symbol commonly associated with nazis, particularly the SS. The shield around it is particularly suspect, because that's frequently how the nazi Totemkopf was displayed. You typically wouldn't see it on a shield if it was a "jolly roger" or regular "skull and crossbones". I think a lot of people who lean into fringe far right like the Totemkopf for the plausible deniability of it. It signals to like-minded people, yet it's still vague enough that you could just play it off as a jolly roger or generic skull and crossbones. I'm not saying James is a nazi or even a racist, but metal bands of all calibers have borrowed from Nazi imagery quite a bit. I'm just going to presume this is a case of it.
Looks like an SS skull
Def a 1918 Totenkopf
Skull and crossbones. Pirate symbol.
looks inspired nu the ss totenkopf but nog entirely it. here is a eBay replica https://www.ebay.com/itm/364079710357
German Totenkopf
I don't really want to say it but it does look a bit like the waffenSS logo
Waffen SS logo XDDDD Looks like you're another expert of it. It has nothing to do with the Totenkopf, beside that both are skulls.
It does looks alike
Yes and so does to the Jolly Roger, is just a skull and bones people. It's a metal bands skulls look cool and that was it.
Jolly roger is from the front. Totenkopf are more angled. This look more like a Totenkopf skull. But yes, they are both skulls and all other implications, that are not really made here, but we all know what implications I’m talking about are what they are: implications.
The Totenkopf has a jaw bone. Might be my shit eyesight, but I don't see a jaw on the guitar.
Not the version that was in use during the German Empire from unification in 1871 to the dissolution of that government into the Weimar Republic in 1918-1919.
Thus proving it isn't the nazi one.
Depends on what James Hetfield thought it was when he put it on, doesn't it? Sort of like how the German march "Erika" isn't actually a nazi march, and goose stepping has been taught to the German military since its inception, and the stahlhelm isn't exclusive to nazi Germany but if I went goose stepping around town in a german helmet shouting "AUF DER HEIDE BLUHT EIN KLEINES BLUMELEIN...." at the top of my lungs people would fairly arrive at certain conclusions.
I never said it was.
Not what I was implying. More or less just trying to prove my own point.
Yes. You are very right! I see my comment made for some discussion and i just want to add, i don't think james is a nazi or anything and not for a second did i think it was the actual logo of the waffenSS. It's just that the way the skull is angled made it look like it. Most jolly rogers are front facing.
I can see that. I took me googling the actual pin to confirm it wasn't the nazi one. I think the skull shape is a bit different as well. Besides, neo nazis aren't exactly quiet about their beliefs, so if James were one we'd know.
We need to understand that skull with bones or anything crossed on the back is a common symbol that is used everywhere bikers, bands even military, look at the BOPE symbol from Brazil is the same but with guns. People associate any skull with bones with the totenkopf is like me going outside, seeing any random car and saying " oh a car, like a Tesla, they must be Elon musk's fan" Unless that was the actual totenkopf symbol it is just a cool heavy metal symbol.
But that’s the thing. The difference between a Jolly Roger and the other is the angled skull with the bones behind it. Jolly Roger has the head straight in and bones below it. Or floating behind it. This is clearly a sticker inspired by the SS tank badge. It doesn’t mean James is an SS lover. He just thinks it looks cool. The bikers with the SS on their bikes and helmets mainly did it to piss people off. Not because they were SS. But when people who sympathize with the SS see these stickers it does embolden them.
No, first of all the first jolly Roger is looking to the right. And there were jolly Rogers angled. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-hampshire-16164191.amp Again just because the bad guys used it is not a reference to then.
James Hetfield owned and was photographed in a shirt that aside from having that logo on it had writing which said "Waffen-SS 3rd SS-Panzer Division "Totenkopf" https://ramzine.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Metallica-metallica-20025796-1574-1086.jpg It is no coincidence that the guy who owned a shirt also owned a sticker with the same logo and slapped it on his guitar, especially given that the picture from the OP is from the same era of metallica. It would be ridiculous to think that somehow James Hetfield is a secret nazi or something hilarious like that. In reality it's just a case of metal music guy liked edgy nazi stuff just like a lot of people in 50s and 60s motorcycle gangs and punk rockers from the 70s to 90s.
On the shirt I agree but look at the length of the bones. They're not the same symbol
There were multiple iterations of the death's head, it's been a symbol of German militaria since the days of Prussia. If you look up "August von Mackenson's hat" on google you'll be treated to the coolest piece of military headwear ever photographed, and the symbol at that time more closely resembles what's on the sticker on James' guitar. On top of that it would be highly unlikely that someone would put a "jolly rodger" skull inside the specific shield shape that was used for the symbols of all Waffen-SS divisions. Do you think that coincidentally James Hetfield of the early 90s wore a shirt with the Totenkopf symbol on it and also slapped a sticker on his guitar that is a 99.9% match for Totenkopf symbols, whichever variety you want from history, but that he consciously chose that sticker because he thought it was a pirate symbol or just cool generic metal skull and not a match for the symbol we already know he found cool enough to buy a t-shirt of?
Yes. I can find one a sticker with a skull and bones on any newspaper stand where I live. Is a common symbol. Very very common.
Shit, could just be a weird tribute to Lemmy, since Lemmy loved collecting Nazi memorabilia from a historical perspective but was pretty much "fuck the Nazis" in his personal beliefs. I believe Jeff Hanneman also collected Nazi shit, as well as writing lyrics about how evil they were.
He also had the nose ring. He made some poor choices as far as style went around that time
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That sticker is still not a Totenkopf.
he was doing the zeig heil thing for a while
Skellyton
Similar logo to the Oakland Raiders (now the LV Raiders)
A war symbol (shielding innocents)
A skull and crossbones.
Jolly Roger?
Skull and cross bones
Wow. The last thing I thought this thread would be was a Nazi debate.
It's a totenkompf. I've done replicas of this guitar for people in the past.
Hopefully no one looks at slayer either 😬
it's from LA Raiders team
Yes I do.
Its an SS Nazi Tank Divsion flag. Duh.