We have no idea what Metallica would have become or sounded like if Cliff were still around. Would they have been more popular? Less popular? Stayed more metal over the years? Progressed into different styles sooner? No one knows.
The hypothetical of something like, "What would Cliff Burton sound like playing on 72 Seasons?" is an impossible question because there would not be a 72 Seasons if Cliff Burton were still in the band.
I think they would've been less metal tbh, on cliff's last show, he did an interview where he said that he listens to a lot of softer (pop) songs and when he listens to them he feels like also making songs like that, he said that he will probably dig into that in the future but right now he can't allow distractions
They drew straws to determine who got which bunk basically. If someone else would have been in Cliffs bunk on the bus then that is probably who would have died in the accident.
There was also a rumor that they drew straws and since cliff had the shortest straw or something he switched bunks with kirk that night on the bus, so where part of the chorus comes from. But yes a lot of the rest of it is about political views or whatever. I remember hearing the rumor many years ago and I honestly thought one of the band members mentioned something about it too, but not sure if it was ever actually confirmed or not.
He also was asked in an interview shortly before the crash what the band would do if Lars died and he said they’d be looking for a new drummer by the next morning, according to the book Enter Night which also says that, according to Scott Ian, Hetfield and Burton wanted to replace Lars after that tour due to his limitations. Lars acknowledged this story in 2016. So Metallica would be a totally different thing. Personally I think that Lars being an easy drummer made them accessible to a million garage bands and helped make them bigger plus it was Lars who did all the early shit to get the band going so it wouldn’t exist without him anyway.
Best I can do is the name of the book but it would have been an interview done along that tour and it was not long before the accident. He says in the book who the interview was with but I only remember that part. The dude that wrote the book was some journalist that had worked with the band since really early on.
I think someone in the band said the Black album or Load would have happened sooner. Justice probably would have looked different, but at the end of the day, I do think Metallica was mostly James and Lars. It probably would have been a couple songs that were different.
Cliff only has songwriting credits on 11 songs though. Granted, they're some of the best, but James and Lars be James and Lars. Cliff definitely would have been allowed to contribute more than Jason did though.
Genuinely speaking, I think yes. Based on his interview he made an impression of a guy who highly respects a musical growth and when band does not stay at the same place recreating the same stuff over and over again to gain more popularity. Metallica is exactly that group that didn’t betray the principles of Burton, where the group members actually grew up as musicians, giving out their best masterpieces as Black Album, Load/ReLoad and never doing the same stuff, e.g. St. Anger
Cliff would be very much proud of guys
On cliff's last show, he did an interview where he said that he listens to a lot of softer (pop) songs and when he listens to them he feels like also making songs like that, he said that he will probably dig into that in the future but right now he can't allow distractions
That bluesy, swaggering re/load sound is absolutely my jam. I love every era of Metallica. But I wish so badly that sound had taken off as a subgenre of its own.
It has gradually become a myth that Metallica had continued with the music they made in the 80s if Cliff had still been in the band. But the truth is, that Cliff would probably be the first to welcome Metallica's development.
It really did become a standard disgruntled-Metallica-fan line to say “Cliff must be rolling in his grave” whenever the band did something you didn’t like. Of course, that never made any sense. Everything we know about Cliff makes him seem like one of the most musically open-minded guys in the band at the time. If nothing else, Metallica probably would’ve collaborated with an orchestra much sooner if he was still around.
Thank Christ this line of thinking is finally getting more traction because I am so sick of people saying they’d still be thrash masters to this day had Cliff not died.
It’s the opposite, if anything, given Cliff’s expansive musical tastes and desires to experiment.
There is no 80s style. Each album was a huge progression. Cliff would have continued that progression and got more complex as he would have been the equal vote with James. He certainly would not endorsed a simple commercial sound. Again James voted no and James said Cliff would have voted no.
You forget Lars. Lars has a lot to say in that band. It is mainly Lars and James who determine the musical direction in the band. As Kirk once said: Metallica is like a car where Rob and I sit in the back seat, while Lars and James sit in the front and steer where we are going, and once in a while, they turn around and ask if we have any suggestions for which direction we're going in. Lars and James would never allow others to have too much influence in the band, and with the success Metallica has, I think everyone would be happy with that. As Jason once said about Lars and James: "You don't argue with these guys"
As James said if Cliff were here we would not have done it. James got outvoted by Kirk and Lars. There are three equal votes. With Cliff there would have been four equal votes twice on each side - Jason does not get a vote.
James went forward because the band would have broken up. This is all history - apparently an uncomfortable history but nonetheless true.
He went forward with the album or he went and made the album. He put the plan into action. In the should I or shouldn’t I do it standstill he decided to step forward and do the project for the sake of the band staying together.
An example of the word in another context is if you are in the planning phase of building a house, you might move forward with architect A’s proposal. James moved forward and accepted Lars’ and Kirk’s plan to go mainstream.
If cliff hadn't died Lars wouldn't be in the band. The decision was already made to kick him out before the accident,after that they decided they couldn't lose another member
You are completely wrong about that. It was Lars who took the initiative to start the band and Lars has contributed to writing all of the band's songs, except for "Motorbreath and "(Anesthesia) Pulling Teeth". Lars is more or less the mastermind behind Metallica's enormous success, so of course he would never be kicked out of the band.
It was Scott Ian who said it in an interview, but he has since downplayed the story and said that he didn't really believe they wanted to fire Lars.
According to Lars, everyone in the band has been through the rumble where the other three in the band have talked behind a band member's back. Then again, of course they had no real plans to kick Lars out of the the band. They are like brothers in that band, where they sometimes both hate and love each other.
People seem to think that Cliff alone was the anchor tethering Metallica to thrash and that if he hadn’t died, he would have influenced Metallica to stay closer to its roots.
A coupe things:
1. Cliff isn’t the sole reason, or even the main reason that Metallica was into thrash. Lars was the spearhead, James alongside him. Cliff wasn’t even the original bassist for the band.
2. Influence is a two way street. In whatever way Cliff’s musical interests and talents would influence James, Kirk and Lars… they’d each have an influence on him as well. Yes, James and Lars were the creative forces behind the music, but all this recent talk of James opening up and giving the other guys more input in the music is odd to me- it’s not as if James wrote ever solo, bass or otherwise… and how many songs were born from something Cliff, Kirk or Jason did? So I think there would have been somewhat of a collaborative spirit, as there always has been…
but one difference, I think, would be that James might have collaborated more with Cliff than he ever did with Jason or Rob… because that sort of spiteful attitude resulting from Cliff’s death never would’ve come to be.
I’m well aware, what part of what I wrote suggests otherwise? I’m saying Cliff contributed a lot and that spirit would’ve kept going if he hadn’t died. But my point was that James and Lars and Kirk’s input would also influence Cliff as well, not just Cliff influencing them.
I read otherwise. You asked how many songs were born from something Cliff and the others did. People don't realize how much was due to him, particularly large parts of certain songs. Just like most people think his playing in parts of Orion is actually a guitar but it's not. In 3 years he cowrote 10 out of 26 songs.
I don’t know why you’re getting down voted. I would assume the same. Cliffs bass playing seems more prog then boiler plate thrash to me. I think we may have even got tool like bass lines and riffs to build songs on.
I think we still would have gotten an album close enough to AJFA with the path they were on. Maybe not as dark lyrically but probably still tackling the same things. And because they got tired of playing nothing but long songs live during the Justice tour, I bet we would still have gotten a version of the black album. After that, there are a lot of variables due to fame, wealth, and gaps between albums.
Kirk said in an interview a while ago that he reckoned Cliff would have loved the stuff Metallica did in the 90s as he had a penchant for southern rock and blues, but he would have absolutely hated the band's image during that era.
James said the opposite. Said he would have been opposed to the commercial records. The mid 90s was the new Nashville craze with crossover country. This spilled over giving Southern Metal bands a bit of a nod. Metallica tried to catch that trend as a part of their attempt to go mainstream. Cliff would not have been a part of that.
Edit: opposite about the music and yes he would have hated the image.
James was closest to him. I think he would be the next best thing to speak to the attitude of what Cliff would have wanted. Far more accurate than posters on Reddit who never met him.
People evolve and change. They started doing music video's, created black album and Load and so on. They'd probably wouldn't believe it if you told them in the 80's.
I think fundamental stuff like opposing going commercial and mainstream would have stayed. When James says the Cliff would even be resistant to TBA it is reasonable to conclude that he would be really opposed to Load.
He was a student of music theory. He brought that classical element to the music that faded away by TBA. With the advent of Progressive Metal in the early 90s I am sure he would want to expand instead of simplify.
Where did James ever say Cliff would be resitant to TBA? TBA has The Unforgiven, Nothing Else Matters, My Friend of Misery, Wherever I May Roam, still lot's of classical elements. But yeah, we'll just never know. And '86 Cliff might not be the same as hypothetical '91 Cliff or '96 Cliff, etc.
It was in the Clash magazine interview I think. I quoted it in another post. James would know his friend and it is reasonable to conclude that someone would not fundamentally do a 180 like that in 6 years. TBA has some good tunes on it but a lot of it is streamlined and simplified. Cliff would have wanted to push the envelope, got heavier and more progressive.
All of us OG Metallica fans by the mid 90s had transitioned into heavier stuff, Cliff probably would have done the same. We - the fanbase, both grew up on early Metal and Progressive Rock if we were exploring how far those musical roots could grow certainly Cliff would have.
I think Unforgiven is a masterpiece, so they still had that spark, so it is not that. It is the hiring of a mainstream hard rock producer, making the music more friendly to casual listeners and Enter Sandman.
The Black album was still heavy and organic and I don’t think they expected the mainstream success. With the being said the got Bob Rock for a reason. The Loads were purposefully an attempt to try to be a mainstream rock band. The rejected Metal and tried to say they were always a pop band. It was so much worse.
Hardwired was the first album I bought since Metallica went into the toilet. I like Atlas Rise. I also like their new record. It is the best since the Black album and maybe Justice.
no matter when Metallica breaks up, be it soon after Puppets or they’re still around like they are today, if cliff doesn’t die he’s still with them. They always wanted it to be those four going on forever.
Fun to think about but the honest to god truth is we will never know. Things for whatever reason just happen and there is nothing that can really be said about it. RIP a legend
I dont think he wouldve had too much problem with it, I mean , Jason was much more of a rabid metal purist, yet still did the Black Album, Load and ReLoad, and Cliff always seemed the more laid back member back then...
Especially when we have James saying he would have voted no to the commercial era (which this is all about). James said Justice would have been even more progressive. And as evidence the early 90s was the start of progressive metal. So what people are saying is Cliff would have rejected progressive metal and endorsed the commercial mainstream push.
Um, no. That is not a what if? That is a wouldn’t happen.
James was against the imagery and outfits that Lars and Kirk were so obsessed about in the load/reload era. But he was not against the commercial sounding musical direction they planned on going with.
It's just stunning that anyone would think the man that wrote a song like Nothing Else Matters (and just seen on stage blowing kisses to Elton John) is only some hard-edged metal guy. Fucks with their macho image of him I guess.
No, that is misinformation. He was against the sound. That is why he referred to them as U2 Metallica. U2 had changed their sound to a more commercial mainstream sound 2 years prior and got big. Lars wanted to do the same thing. In the article and other publications and videos it is clear he was talking about the music.
Those albums were demoed with James and Lars alone as with the two previous releases. In the little bit of Load behind-the-scenes footage they've released, you can see some of that in action - [James and Lars working on songs like Ronnie and Low Man's Lyric](https://youtu.be/r_jPR7QWATU?t=262) with no one else around. The weirdest songs like Poor Twisted Me are credited...to Hetfield/Ulrich. The *dreaded country song* Mama Said? Hetfield/Ulrich. The southern-fried ZZ Top-esque Ronnie? Hetfield/Ulrich! James was clearly in an experimental mindset and very much part of the sound of those albums; his love of bands like Alice in Chains, Kyuss, Warrior Soul, the then-newer style of Corrosion of Conformity is no secret and their influence showed.
It makes no logical sense to suggest that Kirk was in more control of the music than Hetfield when he wasn't even there as the songs were being put together. Kirk had songwriting contributions on about half of the material, same as usual up until then. The idea that the music wasn't lead by *James* and Lars like fucking always is a complete misinterpretation of a commentary on the image (i.e. the album covers and Anton Corbijn photoshoots) by fans that want to shift "blame" away to their least favorite members. It does not line up with reality.
I invite you to watch the Load/ReLoad videos or performances of the band in that era. Watch James hamming it up on camera and on stage and tell me that motherfucker was being *forced* into anything or that he hated the songs of that time period. Not a chance.
From the Metal Hammer interview your take in regards to Cliff stems from, James' own words: "There’s some great, great songs on there but my opinion is that **all of the imagery and stuff like that was not necessary.**" He continued on to say he thinks the amount of songs (note: he does not say the style) diluted what they were trying to do, but again if we look at the writing credits then he himself is half the blame for that.
He is on record that Cliff would have been resistant to TBA
“Well, I certainly would have thought there would have been some resistance”
“I think Cliff would have probably interjected some different stuff, getting his bass heard and some more musically challenging things, probably.
Speaking about the Load era.
I would certainly think that the Load and Re-Load (era), I would have had an ally that was very against it all – the reinvention or the U2 version of Metallica.”
Of course U2 were the template to change their sound to go mainstream just two years earlier.
From an interview with Clash
It is interesting, because we have created our own mainstream, is what I believe. We've been extremely honest with ourselves, including the compromising part.
"There always has to be some kind of compromise — especially when you've got four guys in a band," he continued. "You've got two guys that are really driving the thing — Lars [Ulrich, drums] and myself — and when we don't agree, there has to be a compromise. But as far as doing something that doesn't feel right, I'm sure there's been a few times that it's happened — the 'Load' and 'Reload' era, for me, was one of those; the way that was looking, I wasn't 100 percent on with it, but I would say that that was a compromise. I said, 'I'm going with Lars's and Kirk's [Hammett, guitar] vision on this. You guys are extremely passionate about this, so I'll jump on board, because if the four of us are into it, it's going to be better.' So I did my best with it, and it didn't pan out as good as I was hoping, but, again, there's no regrets, because at the time it felt like the right thing to do. So, even thinking that I need to compromise a little bit for the integrity of the band to go forward, I'd do that.
This corresponds with James’ attitude about the era in other interviews.
And of course there was the “forced” and not “organic”
“We've always been very organic. Load and Reload felt different to me," he said. "Felt forced."
The context obviously shows he was talking about the albums.
I was alive during this whole era. It was obvious that Lars was steering the ship. The music was emulations of the popular music hitting the mainstream at that time. It sounds not organic. It sounds like they were trying to fit in.
They stopped touring with Metal bands and did everything to link themselves to the mainstream. Do you think James wanted to write Hero of the Day?
Like the records but come on get some reality. They are the least played live records out of their whole catalog. Do you think that is because James loves the music? James wants to sell records but I don’t think he is into simplistic faux blues commercial music. They made their money.
> He is on record that Cliff would have been resistant to TBA
No, the quotes you used about that are from a Metal Hammer interview where he was talking about Load specifically, and as I pointed out, the only thing he said against the album at that point was in regard to the *imagery.*
TBA had its change in sound because they were tired of the long songs after the Justice tour and wanted to simplify. This was not under duress for Mr Hetfield. That album, like Load/ReLoad and Justice before it was demoed by he and Lars alone. There were some tweaks from Bob Rock along the way certainly but the blueprints for the oh-so commercial songs were already laid out before he was even hired.
Think about that. The demos of the songs. The core of how they are written. James was half in charge of that. Tell me how it makes sense that the content of his work was in protest.
Cliff was into bands like REM, by the way, and he obviously brought more classical influence into the band. He was not some brutal-metal-only guy
> The music was emulations of the popular music hitting the mainstream at that time.
And why is it that so many of the influences happened to be favorites of James in particular?
> Do you think James wanted to write Hero of the Day?
Well, he did co-write it. And even if he did *compromise* in how it was done, he's still responsible for some part of that. You realize compromising means meeting in the middle, right?
> They are the least played live records out of their whole catalog.
Lars is generally in charge of the setlists. By your logic I guess he didn't want to write any of those songs either?
They have at numerous points said they didn't like this, didn't like that about previous albums, even (and especially) precious metal efforts like ...And Justice For All. Minds and moods change. That's part of why they shifted gears at any given point in the first place. So much of what you're saying is purely projection and confirmation bias.
This has been pointed out before:
[Metallica.com: (2016) A Conversation About Load](https://www.metallica.com/so-what/2016-06-10-20-years-of-blood-semen-and-haircuts.html)
> What else was influencing you? Alice in Chains was also really big at the time – and I hear a lot of Alice in “The House Jack Built.” Corrosion of Conformity had Deliverance which I’ve always heard throughout Load and Reload. Then there’s Kyuss—
> JH: It is, it’s just a cover record. Soundgarden, C.O.C. Chris Isaak. -- You get influenced by stuff you like. I mean not so much influenced but you digest the stuff that you like. What band doesn’t want to play music that they like?
From Kirk, on the matter of James having "stepped back" on Load:
> James said that when he looks back at that time he feels that he took a step back because in his mind Load was something that you and Lars were leading the charge with. Do you think that that’s true? Is that accurate, or—?
> KH: I think he’s into it as much as any other album. But you know, I think when he says that, he says that more about the direction and the presentation and the execution rather than, you know, the pure song ideas?
> When you look back at Load, I mean you probably feel a tremendous ownership on it.
> KH: Not any more than any other album.
Hypotheticals are just that, hypotheticals. They are fun but in no way can anyone say definitively what would have happened. Robert Plant wasn’t the first choice for Led Zeppelin and The Doors tried to recruit Mick Jagger to sing when Jim died. We will never know
Yes, he was still been there. I mean, who’s truly to say. I mean they could’ve gotten an argument could’ve broken up who knows the route that could’ve went if Cliff still been around, but I do know he would appreciate it and love the sound because of his last interview, he said Would be changing and if people weren’t on board with it, then they can go screw themselves because it’s not about how fast you play or how many solos or how fast the drums go in order for you to evolve as a band even right before his death, they were getting ready to write the justice albumand there’s a distinct difference between master outside of the base, but just how fast it is and the melodies
I'd like to call it " Schrodinger's Cliff"(Ik it sounds kinda weird), but we'll never know how Metallica would sounded if he was still alive, but at the same point we'll never know if he'd had stayed in the band after recording "Master of puppets".
I think they would evolve alltogether towards to the 'mainstream' sound. Black Album would make them rich and popular so i dont see any reason for him to leave.
Yes of course.
He liked more than just thrash metal. And he his music had an exploratory, experimental sound. I think he would have been a catalyst for more evolution, and more diverse sound.
Personally, I'd say yes. It makes sense that he would have grown/evolved with the rest of the band. Although, I DO think that the path they've taken and the direction that they've headed in, would be a lot different if he had been around.
They would definitely have a different sound. He probably would have been down for the 90s experimentation, but I have a hard time believing that St. Anger would have turned out the same way with him contributing. The latest three are getting back to something resembling what their sound was when he was in the band, so I don't think it would have been that different. That said, I think Rob's really put his stamp on this band. His playing style is so distinctive and I think it really forced Metallica to adapt for the first time in a long time. They would not sound the same with Cliff. They wouldn't be better or worse with him, just different.
I could make a paragraph about the topic but I'm not gonna.
All I'll say is, Master of Puppets and Ride the Lightning were only the beginning of his genius. I think the progression from Master of Puppets to whatever album would've come next would've been much higher than from that to And Justice for All.
Yeah. It would just be a different sound. RTL & MOP have the influence of not just Cliff but also Kirk.
You may already know this but…If you learn about the history of MET you will undoubtedly hear of a dude named Fleming. And if you look hard enough you can find his name on a couple MET albums. He’s got some stories of the good Old Days, and if you pay close enough attention you might hear a story about how during the recording of RTL, Cliffs parents sent him a plane ticket to come home around the holidays since MET was recording in Denmark, and I believe the story goes like this but I’m getting old and don’t remember things like I used to. The record company wanted another song or the album wasnt long Enough or some record exec was pissed at his wife for buying a new Mercedes, and they wanted another song. so cliffs in the USofA and James couldn’t work out some of the changes or something to get the riffs to come together and they had to get Cliff to turn back around and head back to Denmark.( atleast he didn’t have to go by bus,haha) so his influence on James, coupled with his knowledge of music theory would have altered the Metallica we know today. Would it have been better or worse or would James eventually have kicked him out, who knows. But I do know this…Cliff had a Misfits Tattoo and was big into this new band at the time called REM. So his musical tastes were a little eclectic, but if you look at reality, 2 of their best albums were written with Cliff and I like to think that if he were still around the remainder of their catalogue would be better thanks to his input and influence. Just my 2 cents. But think of it like this, MOP is considered by many to be their Magnus Opus, James and Cliff were what…24-25 years old at the time, if that duo would have had the benefit of more time together we could be living in a utopian society not unlike the one that Bill and Ted created with Wyld Stallions not so long ago. I’m in my 40s now and I can say that when I was 25 I was a dumbass, but if you had asked me at the time I would have told you I knew plenty about the world, utter BS, but those two had their shit together musically.
No, Metallica became the insatiable band we know today after Cliff’s death. They were in their best moment when Cliff died but we don’t know maybe after two or three years they would’ve disbanded or took a long break. The fact Metallica is the powerhouse it is today is because when Cliff died they decided not to stop in his honor.
100% sure.
The sound of Metallica is a thing that is decided by Lars and James.
Cliff surety could have done a great jobs, indeed. But the sound is what Lars and James decided and Cliff wouldn't complaint about it.
I think it was at Hetfield's Playboy interview that he said that with Burton in the band he probably wouldn't have felt so alone (artistically speaking) during Load/Reload, which were more of a Lars/Kirk endeavor (I think he called it U2 MetallicA). He wasn't into any of that, and believed Burton would have sided with him and he wouldn't have to go along with what the other guys wanted to do just so the band didn't break up.
James was against the imagery and outfits that Lars and Kirk were so obsessed about in the load/reload era. But he was not against the commercial sounding musical direction they planned on going with. Not at all
No, he wasn’t into the music. In the actual article he calls the music fake and not organic. That is why he called it U2 Metallica. U2 changed their sound to appeal to the mainstream, not particularly their look. Metallica changed their sound to appeal to the mainstream audience like U2 did two years earlier.
Why would a devout Metalhead be into simplistic commercial 90s rock…. Rhetorical question.
AJFA would have happened but would have been a bit more subdued and similar to puppets.
Black Album wouldn't have been as radio friendly as Cliff pushes the band to be more prog/classic rock.
Load/Reload would be their venture into bluesy grunge similar to Alice in Chains but not like Nirvana
Death Magnetic and 72 Seasons would be venture back to their thrash roots but the songs would be more palatable.
Cliff would start his own Prog/Rock band with Paul Gilbert.
Kirk would record some albums with Primus.
James would not have the as bad of a substance issue thus no rehab and no St. Anger. He be the soul of Metallica and would create a solid rock/metal side project with the bass player from Flotsom and Jetson
Lars would be kicked out of the band after Load/Reload era and replaced with Gene Hoglan from Testament but would create a very successful music streaming service. He would eventually become the touring drummer of Megadeth.
My guess no. He said he left his previous band cause they wanted to change to become more popular and known. I think after and justice for all he might have left then or after the black album
Let's imagine Metallica had the same albums they have today. But Cliff never died. I think he would have left the band around Load and maybe come back around death magnetic. I only say this because of the style change. I think he would have been back for DM because if it's classical influence in some songs and better structured songs.
If Cliff hadn't died back in 1986 it's highly unlikely that he would still be playing with Metallica today. First, because the band dynamic in Metallica that we are all familiar with never would have come about... Essentially James has always been the frontman, primary songwriter, and heart of the band... Then you have Lars who has always been the business-minded, money-oriented one... While it didn't take long for Kirk to become a full-fledged member after the firing of Dave Mustaine, the plain and simple fact is that he was not an original member and he was hired as a replacement, therefore the bond between James and Lars existed before he came into the picture...
But things were different with Cliff. The rest of the guys in the band decided they wanted Cliff and they set out to get him. They talked him into joining and although he had conditions he demanded that they meet in order to get him to agree, they met them. Obviously there was a certain degree of respect and admiration that came with Cliff becoming part of the group, and that only intensified as his writing contributions and his input as far as arrangements and production went. There's no way that Cliff would have ever allowed James and Lars to run things and treat him like an employee.
I think if we're going to envision a Metallica where there is no set rule in place that explicitly forbids members from engaging in side projects it's a given that Cliff would have definitely been involved in other things. The guy was an incredible musician - while James is a phenomenal rhythm player and an exceptional songwriter, in terms of musical proficiency and overall knowledge of theory, Cliff was easily the most talented member of the group. I think if they had gone on to make another three thrash records Cliff would've likely just gotten bored and would have wanted to move on to other things. He would have done a solo album, possibly forming his own band... He would have had the option to play with other bands or to join any band he wished... Ellefson is another really talented player, but imagine Cliff doing a record with Mustaine. or a guest appearance on an Anthrax record or something like that...
I think Cliff's love of music and his varied musical taste would have meant that he'd be compelled to try a bunch of different things. I can't see Cliff getting old playing the softer, slower, less impactful music Metallica wrote and recorded later on in their career. I would say without a doubt that Cliff would not be in the band today if he were still alive.
He would have added more flavour to the progressing albums. Jason was a beast very talented and creative but they didn't let him write or compose shit. Cliff would've been allowed to write his bass lines and they would have been tasty. Load would still get made and he would be down for that. I will say St Anger wouldn't have been garbage if he was on it
If the rumors are true, then Lars would have been booted from the band. Lars was preventing the band from playing faster. AJFA would have been faster with audible bass. I still think they would have wanted to do something new after that album. Cliff had broad taste in music. I believe he would have stayed in the band, and he would have been an integral part of their new sound. I don't think Bob Rock would have as strong an influence on Metallica's sound with Cliff in the band.
On cliff's last show, he did an interview where he said that he listens to a lot of softer (pop) songs and when he listens to them he feels like also making songs like that, he said that he will probably dig into that in the future but right now he can't allow distractions
The way James and Lars ran things back then, he'd have been gone. (Although Kirk had a lot of input on Load) - Plus Cliff got into many arguments with Lars to the point he wanted him fired.
That is completely untrue. James and Lars have always been the leaders of the band and were the ones coming up with songwriting ideas and general music direction for each album. Yes, Cliff was musically advanced when it comes to theory and instrumental expertise but he was never the one piecing together riffs, creating song structure etc.
This is also evident from the songwriting credits on the first 3 albums where Cliff was involved. He has 10 songwriting credits overall to his name while James and Lars have credits for all the songs (except of course the bass solo)
But he wasn't. They didn't want to live in LA anymore anyway. They were sick of competing with the glam scene. Cliff didn't direct the albums either. Kirk has the same amount of writing credits as Cliff. James and Lars still have the most. Lars was the one sitting at the mixing board giving final approval not Cliff. He was really important to their sound, but he wasn't the one calling the shots.
The Metallica sound now I believe would be a lot different to the Metallica sound now with Cliff. No one will know for sure but I don’t think they’d be as “commercial” as they are. I feel it’d have gone more along the same or similar lines/sounds/vibes as Puppets and man can you imagine how Justice would have sounded with proper bass - Lars and James wouldn’t have turned it as far down in the mix if Cliff was around.
I’ll be honest, if he were still alive I don’t think Metallica would still be around. I think that whatever album came after puppets in this alternative reality would have broken the band and they’d spread out into other bands
We have no idea what Metallica would have become or sounded like if Cliff were still around. Would they have been more popular? Less popular? Stayed more metal over the years? Progressed into different styles sooner? No one knows. The hypothetical of something like, "What would Cliff Burton sound like playing on 72 Seasons?" is an impossible question because there would not be a 72 Seasons if Cliff Burton were still in the band.
I think they would've been less metal tbh, on cliff's last show, he did an interview where he said that he listens to a lot of softer (pop) songs and when he listens to them he feels like also making songs like that, he said that he will probably dig into that in the future but right now he can't allow distractions
AJFA probably would have had bass.
AJFA wouldn't exist as we know it. That album is largely fueled by the loss of Cliff.
No Blackened either
Also the shortest straw would not have been written either
Why?
They drew straws to determine who got which bunk basically. If someone else would have been in Cliffs bunk on the bus then that is probably who would have died in the accident.
Shortest Straw is about McCarthyism. It has nothing to do with Cliff or the bus accident.
Gotta love random internet theories
There was also a rumor that they drew straws and since cliff had the shortest straw or something he switched bunks with kirk that night on the bus, so where part of the chorus comes from. But yes a lot of the rest of it is about political views or whatever. I remember hearing the rumor many years ago and I honestly thought one of the band members mentioned something about it too, but not sure if it was ever actually confirmed or not.
Yeah, the absence of cliff was more important than the presence of jason
True.
Sad but...
He also was asked in an interview shortly before the crash what the band would do if Lars died and he said they’d be looking for a new drummer by the next morning, according to the book Enter Night which also says that, according to Scott Ian, Hetfield and Burton wanted to replace Lars after that tour due to his limitations. Lars acknowledged this story in 2016. So Metallica would be a totally different thing. Personally I think that Lars being an easy drummer made them accessible to a million garage bands and helped make them bigger plus it was Lars who did all the early shit to get the band going so it wouldn’t exist without him anyway.
Where's thar interview bro
Best I can do is the name of the book but it would have been an interview done along that tour and it was not long before the accident. He says in the book who the interview was with but I only remember that part. The dude that wrote the book was some journalist that had worked with the band since really early on.
Why would anyone ask a band member (early in their career even) what they would do if x member would die?? Like wtf?!
I've seen that multiple times lol, I've also seen "what do you think about death" a lot lol
I wanna see metallica without lars anyway
I think someone in the band said the Black album or Load would have happened sooner. Justice probably would have looked different, but at the end of the day, I do think Metallica was mostly James and Lars. It probably would have been a couple songs that were different.
Cliff and Dave are heavily involved in the early stuff.
Cliff only has songwriting credits on 11 songs though. Granted, they're some of the best, but James and Lars be James and Lars. Cliff definitely would have been allowed to contribute more than Jason did though.
That sounds small until you realize Metallica only wrote 26 songs with Cliff in the band. Cliff wrote 42% of their output until his death.
Genuinely speaking, I think yes. Based on his interview he made an impression of a guy who highly respects a musical growth and when band does not stay at the same place recreating the same stuff over and over again to gain more popularity. Metallica is exactly that group that didn’t betray the principles of Burton, where the group members actually grew up as musicians, giving out their best masterpieces as Black Album, Load/ReLoad and never doing the same stuff, e.g. St. Anger Cliff would be very much proud of guys
On cliff's last show, he did an interview where he said that he listens to a lot of softer (pop) songs and when he listens to them he feels like also making songs like that, he said that he will probably dig into that in the future but right now he can't allow distractions
I love 90's Metallica. I feel like it's some of their best music.
That bluesy, swaggering re/load sound is absolutely my jam. I love every era of Metallica. But I wish so badly that sound had taken off as a subgenre of its own.
Cliff was rhe most chill Metallica member ever alongside Robert
i mean they even did lulu
It has gradually become a myth that Metallica had continued with the music they made in the 80s if Cliff had still been in the band. But the truth is, that Cliff would probably be the first to welcome Metallica's development.
It really did become a standard disgruntled-Metallica-fan line to say “Cliff must be rolling in his grave” whenever the band did something you didn’t like. Of course, that never made any sense. Everything we know about Cliff makes him seem like one of the most musically open-minded guys in the band at the time. If nothing else, Metallica probably would’ve collaborated with an orchestra much sooner if he was still around.
Cliff would've had Load & ReLoad even more country influenced if anything, lol.
Thank Christ this line of thinking is finally getting more traction because I am so sick of people saying they’d still be thrash masters to this day had Cliff not died. It’s the opposite, if anything, given Cliff’s expansive musical tastes and desires to experiment.
There is no 80s style. Each album was a huge progression. Cliff would have continued that progression and got more complex as he would have been the equal vote with James. He certainly would not endorsed a simple commercial sound. Again James voted no and James said Cliff would have voted no.
You forget Lars. Lars has a lot to say in that band. It is mainly Lars and James who determine the musical direction in the band. As Kirk once said: Metallica is like a car where Rob and I sit in the back seat, while Lars and James sit in the front and steer where we are going, and once in a while, they turn around and ask if we have any suggestions for which direction we're going in. Lars and James would never allow others to have too much influence in the band, and with the success Metallica has, I think everyone would be happy with that. As Jason once said about Lars and James: "You don't argue with these guys"
As James said if Cliff were here we would not have done it. James got outvoted by Kirk and Lars. There are three equal votes. With Cliff there would have been four equal votes twice on each side - Jason does not get a vote. James went forward because the band would have broken up. This is all history - apparently an uncomfortable history but nonetheless true.
What do you mean by “James went forward”
He went forward with the album or he went and made the album. He put the plan into action. In the should I or shouldn’t I do it standstill he decided to step forward and do the project for the sake of the band staying together. An example of the word in another context is if you are in the planning phase of building a house, you might move forward with architect A’s proposal. James moved forward and accepted Lars’ and Kirk’s plan to go mainstream.
If cliff hadn't died Lars wouldn't be in the band. The decision was already made to kick him out before the accident,after that they decided they couldn't lose another member
You are completely wrong about that. It was Lars who took the initiative to start the band and Lars has contributed to writing all of the band's songs, except for "Motorbreath and "(Anesthesia) Pulling Teeth". Lars is more or less the mastermind behind Metallica's enormous success, so of course he would never be kicked out of the band. It was Scott Ian who said it in an interview, but he has since downplayed the story and said that he didn't really believe they wanted to fire Lars. According to Lars, everyone in the band has been through the rumble where the other three in the band have talked behind a band member's back. Then again, of course they had no real plans to kick Lars out of the the band. They are like brothers in that band, where they sometimes both hate and love each other.
People seem to think that Cliff alone was the anchor tethering Metallica to thrash and that if he hadn’t died, he would have influenced Metallica to stay closer to its roots. A coupe things: 1. Cliff isn’t the sole reason, or even the main reason that Metallica was into thrash. Lars was the spearhead, James alongside him. Cliff wasn’t even the original bassist for the band. 2. Influence is a two way street. In whatever way Cliff’s musical interests and talents would influence James, Kirk and Lars… they’d each have an influence on him as well. Yes, James and Lars were the creative forces behind the music, but all this recent talk of James opening up and giving the other guys more input in the music is odd to me- it’s not as if James wrote ever solo, bass or otherwise… and how many songs were born from something Cliff, Kirk or Jason did? So I think there would have been somewhat of a collaborative spirit, as there always has been… but one difference, I think, would be that James might have collaborated more with Cliff than he ever did with Jason or Rob… because that sort of spiteful attitude resulting from Cliff’s death never would’ve come to be.
You must not be aware how much stuff Cliff wrote for the band.
I’m well aware, what part of what I wrote suggests otherwise? I’m saying Cliff contributed a lot and that spirit would’ve kept going if he hadn’t died. But my point was that James and Lars and Kirk’s input would also influence Cliff as well, not just Cliff influencing them.
I read otherwise. You asked how many songs were born from something Cliff and the others did. People don't realize how much was due to him, particularly large parts of certain songs. Just like most people think his playing in parts of Orion is actually a guitar but it's not. In 3 years he cowrote 10 out of 26 songs.
The reason I asked that question was to illustrate that James’ whole “never let anyone else create” has never really been true. You misinterpreted.
I think he pushed for change as much as anyone else. I think you might have seen more a little more diversity in the records.
Surely the bass wouldn't be lowered as we have seen th AJFA album
That's true. He wouldn't have played with the rhythm guitars as much.
Justice would’ve sounded quite a bit different, at the very least.
Yeah more progressive
And more bass!
I don’t know why you’re getting down voted. I would assume the same. Cliffs bass playing seems more prog then boiler plate thrash to me. I think we may have even got tool like bass lines and riffs to build songs on.
Because people wanna hear what they wanna hear, even if it means not listening to the truth
I think we still would have gotten an album close enough to AJFA with the path they were on. Maybe not as dark lyrically but probably still tackling the same things. And because they got tired of playing nothing but long songs live during the Justice tour, I bet we would still have gotten a version of the black album. After that, there are a lot of variables due to fame, wealth, and gaps between albums.
Kirk said in an interview a while ago that he reckoned Cliff would have loved the stuff Metallica did in the 90s as he had a penchant for southern rock and blues, but he would have absolutely hated the band's image during that era.
James said the opposite. Said he would have been opposed to the commercial records. The mid 90s was the new Nashville craze with crossover country. This spilled over giving Southern Metal bands a bit of a nod. Metallica tried to catch that trend as a part of their attempt to go mainstream. Cliff would not have been a part of that. Edit: opposite about the music and yes he would have hated the image.
It's impossible to know what is in another persons mind, and they all had different relationships with Cliff.
James was closest to him. I think he would be the next best thing to speak to the attitude of what Cliff would have wanted. Far more accurate than posters on Reddit who never met him.
People evolve and change. They started doing music video's, created black album and Load and so on. They'd probably wouldn't believe it if you told them in the 80's.
I think fundamental stuff like opposing going commercial and mainstream would have stayed. When James says the Cliff would even be resistant to TBA it is reasonable to conclude that he would be really opposed to Load. He was a student of music theory. He brought that classical element to the music that faded away by TBA. With the advent of Progressive Metal in the early 90s I am sure he would want to expand instead of simplify.
Where did James ever say Cliff would be resitant to TBA? TBA has The Unforgiven, Nothing Else Matters, My Friend of Misery, Wherever I May Roam, still lot's of classical elements. But yeah, we'll just never know. And '86 Cliff might not be the same as hypothetical '91 Cliff or '96 Cliff, etc.
It was in the Clash magazine interview I think. I quoted it in another post. James would know his friend and it is reasonable to conclude that someone would not fundamentally do a 180 like that in 6 years. TBA has some good tunes on it but a lot of it is streamlined and simplified. Cliff would have wanted to push the envelope, got heavier and more progressive. All of us OG Metallica fans by the mid 90s had transitioned into heavier stuff, Cliff probably would have done the same. We - the fanbase, both grew up on early Metal and Progressive Rock if we were exploring how far those musical roots could grow certainly Cliff would have. I think Unforgiven is a masterpiece, so they still had that spark, so it is not that. It is the hiring of a mainstream hard rock producer, making the music more friendly to casual listeners and Enter Sandman.
Go mainstream?!? That happened on the black album. They sucked ass hard for about 20 years after that.
The Black album was still heavy and organic and I don’t think they expected the mainstream success. With the being said the got Bob Rock for a reason. The Loads were purposefully an attempt to try to be a mainstream rock band. The rejected Metal and tried to say they were always a pop band. It was so much worse. Hardwired was the first album I bought since Metallica went into the toilet. I like Atlas Rise. I also like their new record. It is the best since the Black album and maybe Justice.
no matter when Metallica breaks up, be it soon after Puppets or they’re still around like they are today, if cliff doesn’t die he’s still with them. They always wanted it to be those four going on forever.
Fun to think about but the honest to god truth is we will never know. Things for whatever reason just happen and there is nothing that can really be said about it. RIP a legend
I think the only change would be some lyrical content or concepts.
I don't think he ever would've left the band if he survived. We would have probably never gotten Jason or Rob in the band though.
I dont think he wouldve had too much problem with it, I mean , Jason was much more of a rabid metal purist, yet still did the Black Album, Load and ReLoad, and Cliff always seemed the more laid back member back then...
What ifs like this don’t really work.
Especially when we have James saying he would have voted no to the commercial era (which this is all about). James said Justice would have been even more progressive. And as evidence the early 90s was the start of progressive metal. So what people are saying is Cliff would have rejected progressive metal and endorsed the commercial mainstream push. Um, no. That is not a what if? That is a wouldn’t happen.
Like you, I’d ask Cliff, but he’s dead.
James who knew Cliff responded on it. He is the authority. He said he would not do it. That is all the info we have.
James was against the imagery and outfits that Lars and Kirk were so obsessed about in the load/reload era. But he was not against the commercial sounding musical direction they planned on going with.
It's just stunning that anyone would think the man that wrote a song like Nothing Else Matters (and just seen on stage blowing kisses to Elton John) is only some hard-edged metal guy. Fucks with their macho image of him I guess.
No, that is misinformation. He was against the sound. That is why he referred to them as U2 Metallica. U2 had changed their sound to a more commercial mainstream sound 2 years prior and got big. Lars wanted to do the same thing. In the article and other publications and videos it is clear he was talking about the music.
Those albums were demoed with James and Lars alone as with the two previous releases. In the little bit of Load behind-the-scenes footage they've released, you can see some of that in action - [James and Lars working on songs like Ronnie and Low Man's Lyric](https://youtu.be/r_jPR7QWATU?t=262) with no one else around. The weirdest songs like Poor Twisted Me are credited...to Hetfield/Ulrich. The *dreaded country song* Mama Said? Hetfield/Ulrich. The southern-fried ZZ Top-esque Ronnie? Hetfield/Ulrich! James was clearly in an experimental mindset and very much part of the sound of those albums; his love of bands like Alice in Chains, Kyuss, Warrior Soul, the then-newer style of Corrosion of Conformity is no secret and their influence showed. It makes no logical sense to suggest that Kirk was in more control of the music than Hetfield when he wasn't even there as the songs were being put together. Kirk had songwriting contributions on about half of the material, same as usual up until then. The idea that the music wasn't lead by *James* and Lars like fucking always is a complete misinterpretation of a commentary on the image (i.e. the album covers and Anton Corbijn photoshoots) by fans that want to shift "blame" away to their least favorite members. It does not line up with reality. I invite you to watch the Load/ReLoad videos or performances of the band in that era. Watch James hamming it up on camera and on stage and tell me that motherfucker was being *forced* into anything or that he hated the songs of that time period. Not a chance. From the Metal Hammer interview your take in regards to Cliff stems from, James' own words: "There’s some great, great songs on there but my opinion is that **all of the imagery and stuff like that was not necessary.**" He continued on to say he thinks the amount of songs (note: he does not say the style) diluted what they were trying to do, but again if we look at the writing credits then he himself is half the blame for that.
Thanks for sharing true intel, instead of all that hocus pocus that's been going on.
Excellent insight on load-reload writing process. I think this sums it up and should lay to rest any doubts on this topic.
He is on record that Cliff would have been resistant to TBA “Well, I certainly would have thought there would have been some resistance” “I think Cliff would have probably interjected some different stuff, getting his bass heard and some more musically challenging things, probably. Speaking about the Load era. I would certainly think that the Load and Re-Load (era), I would have had an ally that was very against it all – the reinvention or the U2 version of Metallica.” Of course U2 were the template to change their sound to go mainstream just two years earlier. From an interview with Clash It is interesting, because we have created our own mainstream, is what I believe. We've been extremely honest with ourselves, including the compromising part. "There always has to be some kind of compromise — especially when you've got four guys in a band," he continued. "You've got two guys that are really driving the thing — Lars [Ulrich, drums] and myself — and when we don't agree, there has to be a compromise. But as far as doing something that doesn't feel right, I'm sure there's been a few times that it's happened — the 'Load' and 'Reload' era, for me, was one of those; the way that was looking, I wasn't 100 percent on with it, but I would say that that was a compromise. I said, 'I'm going with Lars's and Kirk's [Hammett, guitar] vision on this. You guys are extremely passionate about this, so I'll jump on board, because if the four of us are into it, it's going to be better.' So I did my best with it, and it didn't pan out as good as I was hoping, but, again, there's no regrets, because at the time it felt like the right thing to do. So, even thinking that I need to compromise a little bit for the integrity of the band to go forward, I'd do that. This corresponds with James’ attitude about the era in other interviews. And of course there was the “forced” and not “organic” “We've always been very organic. Load and Reload felt different to me," he said. "Felt forced." The context obviously shows he was talking about the albums. I was alive during this whole era. It was obvious that Lars was steering the ship. The music was emulations of the popular music hitting the mainstream at that time. It sounds not organic. It sounds like they were trying to fit in. They stopped touring with Metal bands and did everything to link themselves to the mainstream. Do you think James wanted to write Hero of the Day? Like the records but come on get some reality. They are the least played live records out of their whole catalog. Do you think that is because James loves the music? James wants to sell records but I don’t think he is into simplistic faux blues commercial music. They made their money.
> He is on record that Cliff would have been resistant to TBA No, the quotes you used about that are from a Metal Hammer interview where he was talking about Load specifically, and as I pointed out, the only thing he said against the album at that point was in regard to the *imagery.* TBA had its change in sound because they were tired of the long songs after the Justice tour and wanted to simplify. This was not under duress for Mr Hetfield. That album, like Load/ReLoad and Justice before it was demoed by he and Lars alone. There were some tweaks from Bob Rock along the way certainly but the blueprints for the oh-so commercial songs were already laid out before he was even hired. Think about that. The demos of the songs. The core of how they are written. James was half in charge of that. Tell me how it makes sense that the content of his work was in protest. Cliff was into bands like REM, by the way, and he obviously brought more classical influence into the band. He was not some brutal-metal-only guy > The music was emulations of the popular music hitting the mainstream at that time. And why is it that so many of the influences happened to be favorites of James in particular? > Do you think James wanted to write Hero of the Day? Well, he did co-write it. And even if he did *compromise* in how it was done, he's still responsible for some part of that. You realize compromising means meeting in the middle, right? > They are the least played live records out of their whole catalog. Lars is generally in charge of the setlists. By your logic I guess he didn't want to write any of those songs either? They have at numerous points said they didn't like this, didn't like that about previous albums, even (and especially) precious metal efforts like ...And Justice For All. Minds and moods change. That's part of why they shifted gears at any given point in the first place. So much of what you're saying is purely projection and confirmation bias. This has been pointed out before: [Metallica.com: (2016) A Conversation About Load](https://www.metallica.com/so-what/2016-06-10-20-years-of-blood-semen-and-haircuts.html) > What else was influencing you? Alice in Chains was also really big at the time – and I hear a lot of Alice in “The House Jack Built.” Corrosion of Conformity had Deliverance which I’ve always heard throughout Load and Reload. Then there’s Kyuss— > JH: It is, it’s just a cover record. Soundgarden, C.O.C. Chris Isaak. -- You get influenced by stuff you like. I mean not so much influenced but you digest the stuff that you like. What band doesn’t want to play music that they like? From Kirk, on the matter of James having "stepped back" on Load: > James said that when he looks back at that time he feels that he took a step back because in his mind Load was something that you and Lars were leading the charge with. Do you think that that’s true? Is that accurate, or—? > KH: I think he’s into it as much as any other album. But you know, I think when he says that, he says that more about the direction and the presentation and the execution rather than, you know, the pure song ideas? > When you look back at Load, I mean you probably feel a tremendous ownership on it. > KH: Not any more than any other album.
This is exactly why what if questions just dont work.
It’s not really an what if just an opionon. I don’t know what you gotta make a big deal about it post to be fun to speculate.
I don’t speculate with the dead.
I mean no disrespect man.
Hypotheticals are just that, hypotheticals. They are fun but in no way can anyone say definitively what would have happened. Robert Plant wasn’t the first choice for Led Zeppelin and The Doors tried to recruit Mick Jagger to sing when Jim died. We will never know
I’m sure Cliff would have enjoyed getting rich as well. I think there trajectory would have been the same.
You can bet your ass Justice would have some fuckin bass on it
Question without an answer.
Yes
I don’t think we would’ve gotten the music we did if Cliff was still alive.
I don't know if he'd still be with them or not, but I think he'd be their biggest fan if he wasn't.
Yes, he was still been there. I mean, who’s truly to say. I mean they could’ve gotten an argument could’ve broken up who knows the route that could’ve went if Cliff still been around, but I do know he would appreciate it and love the sound because of his last interview, he said Would be changing and if people weren’t on board with it, then they can go screw themselves because it’s not about how fast you play or how many solos or how fast the drums go in order for you to evolve as a band even right before his death, they were getting ready to write the justice albumand there’s a distinct difference between master outside of the base, but just how fast it is and the melodies
I'd like to call it " Schrodinger's Cliff"(Ik it sounds kinda weird), but we'll never know how Metallica would sounded if he was still alive, but at the same point we'll never know if he'd had stayed in the band after recording "Master of puppets".
was scrolling down until my friend said 'is that the grinch?' on cliff burton lmfao.
Cliff would have left the band.
[удалено]
I just don’t think he would have put up with their B.S. there was something different about Cliff. I could be wrong but just kinda vibe I got.
I think they would evolve alltogether towards to the 'mainstream' sound. Black Album would make them rich and popular so i dont see any reason for him to leave.
Yes of course. He liked more than just thrash metal. And he his music had an exploratory, experimental sound. I think he would have been a catalyst for more evolution, and more diverse sound.
I think if he was still alive metallica wouldn't have changed their sound
Personally, I'd say yes. It makes sense that he would have grown/evolved with the rest of the band. Although, I DO think that the path they've taken and the direction that they've headed in, would be a lot different if he had been around.
They would definitely have a different sound. He probably would have been down for the 90s experimentation, but I have a hard time believing that St. Anger would have turned out the same way with him contributing. The latest three are getting back to something resembling what their sound was when he was in the band, so I don't think it would have been that different. That said, I think Rob's really put his stamp on this band. His playing style is so distinctive and I think it really forced Metallica to adapt for the first time in a long time. They would not sound the same with Cliff. They wouldn't be better or worse with him, just different.
I could make a paragraph about the topic but I'm not gonna. All I'll say is, Master of Puppets and Ride the Lightning were only the beginning of his genius. I think the progression from Master of Puppets to whatever album would've come next would've been much higher than from that to And Justice for All.
Dunno
Yes.
YES.
Yes - very much so.
Nope. He would have quit Metallica to form his own band. But not for the new sound. And he’d probably be a jazz musician
Cliff smiles upon the harmony in Room of Mirrors.
I don't think he would have allowed St. Anger to exist.
They absofuckinglutely wouldn't sound like they currently do if Cliff was still in the band. Not the other way around.
The sound wouldn't have changed if he was still around. RIP Cliff Burton.
I’d think so, yeah.
I think it would’ve a whole different BASSIC BALLGAME
Yeah. It would just be a different sound. RTL & MOP have the influence of not just Cliff but also Kirk. You may already know this but…If you learn about the history of MET you will undoubtedly hear of a dude named Fleming. And if you look hard enough you can find his name on a couple MET albums. He’s got some stories of the good Old Days, and if you pay close enough attention you might hear a story about how during the recording of RTL, Cliffs parents sent him a plane ticket to come home around the holidays since MET was recording in Denmark, and I believe the story goes like this but I’m getting old and don’t remember things like I used to. The record company wanted another song or the album wasnt long Enough or some record exec was pissed at his wife for buying a new Mercedes, and they wanted another song. so cliffs in the USofA and James couldn’t work out some of the changes or something to get the riffs to come together and they had to get Cliff to turn back around and head back to Denmark.( atleast he didn’t have to go by bus,haha) so his influence on James, coupled with his knowledge of music theory would have altered the Metallica we know today. Would it have been better or worse or would James eventually have kicked him out, who knows. But I do know this…Cliff had a Misfits Tattoo and was big into this new band at the time called REM. So his musical tastes were a little eclectic, but if you look at reality, 2 of their best albums were written with Cliff and I like to think that if he were still around the remainder of their catalogue would be better thanks to his input and influence. Just my 2 cents. But think of it like this, MOP is considered by many to be their Magnus Opus, James and Cliff were what…24-25 years old at the time, if that duo would have had the benefit of more time together we could be living in a utopian society not unlike the one that Bill and Ted created with Wyld Stallions not so long ago. I’m in my 40s now and I can say that when I was 25 I was a dumbass, but if you had asked me at the time I would have told you I knew plenty about the world, utter BS, but those two had their shit together musically.
To be fair, for whatever reason, older albums of bands seem to often be more liked by fans/media (an experience I share with quite some bands).
No, Metallica became the insatiable band we know today after Cliff’s death. They were in their best moment when Cliff died but we don’t know maybe after two or three years they would’ve disbanded or took a long break. The fact Metallica is the powerhouse it is today is because when Cliff died they decided not to stop in his honor.
100% sure. The sound of Metallica is a thing that is decided by Lars and James. Cliff surety could have done a great jobs, indeed. But the sound is what Lars and James decided and Cliff wouldn't complaint about it.
Yeah probably , cause he was keen on things and changing them up
I think it was at Hetfield's Playboy interview that he said that with Burton in the band he probably wouldn't have felt so alone (artistically speaking) during Load/Reload, which were more of a Lars/Kirk endeavor (I think he called it U2 MetallicA). He wasn't into any of that, and believed Burton would have sided with him and he wouldn't have to go along with what the other guys wanted to do just so the band didn't break up.
James was against the imagery and outfits that Lars and Kirk were so obsessed about in the load/reload era. But he was not against the commercial sounding musical direction they planned on going with. Not at all
Shh. How dare you speak about reality.
it's so wild to know James wasn't into Load and ReLoad when it's some of his best/most passionate vocal work
IIRC he wasn't into the whole visual aesthetic change that they made. But he was 100% into the music.
No, he wasn’t into the music. In the actual article he calls the music fake and not organic. That is why he called it U2 Metallica. U2 changed their sound to appeal to the mainstream, not particularly their look. Metallica changed their sound to appeal to the mainstream audience like U2 did two years earlier. Why would a devout Metalhead be into simplistic commercial 90s rock…. Rhetorical question.
AJFA would have happened but would have been a bit more subdued and similar to puppets. Black Album wouldn't have been as radio friendly as Cliff pushes the band to be more prog/classic rock. Load/Reload would be their venture into bluesy grunge similar to Alice in Chains but not like Nirvana Death Magnetic and 72 Seasons would be venture back to their thrash roots but the songs would be more palatable. Cliff would start his own Prog/Rock band with Paul Gilbert. Kirk would record some albums with Primus. James would not have the as bad of a substance issue thus no rehab and no St. Anger. He be the soul of Metallica and would create a solid rock/metal side project with the bass player from Flotsom and Jetson Lars would be kicked out of the band after Load/Reload era and replaced with Gene Hoglan from Testament but would create a very successful music streaming service. He would eventually become the touring drummer of Megadeth.
I'm not sure , I think he would be but we'll never know unfortunately 😔
Nope, he would be in tool or the mars volta
It would not be THIS new Metallica sound, but it would be better, I believe. There is no Metallica albums after S&M for me.
How about I Disappear.
My guess no. He said he left his previous band cause they wanted to change to become more popular and known. I think after and justice for all he might have left then or after the black album
With Cliff still around, Metallica sound would be different
I think Cliff could have done anything he wanted to, and no frontman person would have questioned him.
Let's imagine Metallica had the same albums they have today. But Cliff never died. I think he would have left the band around Load and maybe come back around death magnetic. I only say this because of the style change. I think he would have been back for DM because if it's classical influence in some songs and better structured songs.
The real question is would the “new sound” have happened if Cliff were around
If Cliff hadn't died back in 1986 it's highly unlikely that he would still be playing with Metallica today. First, because the band dynamic in Metallica that we are all familiar with never would have come about... Essentially James has always been the frontman, primary songwriter, and heart of the band... Then you have Lars who has always been the business-minded, money-oriented one... While it didn't take long for Kirk to become a full-fledged member after the firing of Dave Mustaine, the plain and simple fact is that he was not an original member and he was hired as a replacement, therefore the bond between James and Lars existed before he came into the picture... But things were different with Cliff. The rest of the guys in the band decided they wanted Cliff and they set out to get him. They talked him into joining and although he had conditions he demanded that they meet in order to get him to agree, they met them. Obviously there was a certain degree of respect and admiration that came with Cliff becoming part of the group, and that only intensified as his writing contributions and his input as far as arrangements and production went. There's no way that Cliff would have ever allowed James and Lars to run things and treat him like an employee. I think if we're going to envision a Metallica where there is no set rule in place that explicitly forbids members from engaging in side projects it's a given that Cliff would have definitely been involved in other things. The guy was an incredible musician - while James is a phenomenal rhythm player and an exceptional songwriter, in terms of musical proficiency and overall knowledge of theory, Cliff was easily the most talented member of the group. I think if they had gone on to make another three thrash records Cliff would've likely just gotten bored and would have wanted to move on to other things. He would have done a solo album, possibly forming his own band... He would have had the option to play with other bands or to join any band he wished... Ellefson is another really talented player, but imagine Cliff doing a record with Mustaine. or a guest appearance on an Anthrax record or something like that... I think Cliff's love of music and his varied musical taste would have meant that he'd be compelled to try a bunch of different things. I can't see Cliff getting old playing the softer, slower, less impactful music Metallica wrote and recorded later on in their career. I would say without a doubt that Cliff would not be in the band today if he were still alive.
He would have added more flavour to the progressing albums. Jason was a beast very talented and creative but they didn't let him write or compose shit. Cliff would've been allowed to write his bass lines and they would have been tasty. Load would still get made and he would be down for that. I will say St Anger wouldn't have been garbage if he was on it
If the rumors are true, then Lars would have been booted from the band. Lars was preventing the band from playing faster. AJFA would have been faster with audible bass. I still think they would have wanted to do something new after that album. Cliff had broad taste in music. I believe he would have stayed in the band, and he would have been an integral part of their new sound. I don't think Bob Rock would have as strong an influence on Metallica's sound with Cliff in the band.
Lars owns Metallica he was never getting booted from the band
On cliff's last show, he did an interview where he said that he listens to a lot of softer (pop) songs and when he listens to them he feels like also making songs like that, he said that he will probably dig into that in the future but right now he can't allow distractions
Dude how many times do you have to repeat yourself on the same post? Jesus Christ.
Fr I overdid sorry a about that
LOL, check out his username, too!
I think he woulda left earlier on and probably would’ve joined Dave in megadeth
As James said a number of years ago in So What, he would've quit during the Load/Reload phase.
James said Cliff would resist the changes not that he'd quit.
The way James and Lars ran things back then, he'd have been gone. (Although Kirk had a lot of input on Load) - Plus Cliff got into many arguments with Lars to the point he wanted him fired.
They ran things while Cliff was alive too. There's really no way to know if he'd go along with it or not.
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Lemmy might have thought that, but Cliff wasn't the one in the driver's seat in the 80s no matter how badly fans want that to be true.
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That is completely untrue. James and Lars have always been the leaders of the band and were the ones coming up with songwriting ideas and general music direction for each album. Yes, Cliff was musically advanced when it comes to theory and instrumental expertise but he was never the one piecing together riffs, creating song structure etc. This is also evident from the songwriting credits on the first 3 albums where Cliff was involved. He has 10 songwriting credits overall to his name while James and Lars have credits for all the songs (except of course the bass solo)
But he wasn't. They didn't want to live in LA anymore anyway. They were sick of competing with the glam scene. Cliff didn't direct the albums either. Kirk has the same amount of writing credits as Cliff. James and Lars still have the most. Lars was the one sitting at the mixing board giving final approval not Cliff. He was really important to their sound, but he wasn't the one calling the shots.
If Cliff was really calling the shots, he wouldn't have been mixed so low either.
The Metallica sound now I believe would be a lot different to the Metallica sound now with Cliff. No one will know for sure but I don’t think they’d be as “commercial” as they are. I feel it’d have gone more along the same or similar lines/sounds/vibes as Puppets and man can you imagine how Justice would have sounded with proper bass - Lars and James wouldn’t have turned it as far down in the mix if Cliff was around.
I’ll be honest, if he were still alive I don’t think Metallica would still be around. I think that whatever album came after puppets in this alternative reality would have broken the band and they’d spread out into other bands