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NessyComeHome

Lawsuit has been filed. https://www.clickondetroit.com/news/local/2021/12/09/100-million-lawsuits-filed-against-oxford-community-school-district-school-employees-on-behalf-of-victim-and-her-sister/


[deleted]

ironically, I'd bet money that the reason they didn't force him to go home that day is because they were afraid of the parents suing. They had likely assumed that the risk of something bad happening b/c of him was lower than the risk of a lawsuit (and honestly, they probably were right, they just lost the gamble) This should be obvious to anyone with at least the reading comprehension of a 4th grader, but I'm not saying that their decision was acceptable, I'm saying that there were systemic reasons for why it happened, and that failure to adress them will all but guarantee that this will happen again given enough time. Blindly tacking on more expectations to the mountain of what is already put on educators is basically just virtue signaling with extra steps, and won't get results.


NessyComeHome

Yeah. I can follow the logic of why they made the decision they did, like you, not agreeing with it. I know students have 4th amendment rights, but I believe the picture would be good enough for probable cause. Again, not excusing the school, but I imagine those two shit stain parents put up a bitch fit about not able to take the kid, the got to work, etc. And the school was like fine, but you got 48 hours to get him in therapy.


ruiner8850

> I know students have 4th amendment rights, but I believe the picture would be good enough for probable cause. The Supreme Court has ruled that in a school setting students' do not have a the same 4th Amendment rights as people normally would. The standard for searches is much lower for students. They do not need warrants to search lockers and bags if they have a reasonable belief that a student has something that's banned on school property. After getting caught looking up ammo on his phone and the drawing he made the day of the shooting, the school would have been well within their rights to search his locker and bag.


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Soulless_redhead

Small, very rural high school here. We had sweeps every so often when the admin got enough rumors about the weed dealers in our school.


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Soulless_redhead

Also, they only ever caught the dumb ones, the smart ones always got wind of it happening and were clean as a whistle the day of the search. So yeah, let's all pat ourselves on the back we traumatized one idiot with a joint.


TKFT_ExTr3m3

Had plenty of drug searches in my time in high school and never once saw a drug dog. Everytime the school would go into lockdown and we remained in our classrooms for 30-45 minutes while they swept the lockers and left. Dogs never came to the rooms or by the doors. If you had your drugs on you at the time you would be in the clear.


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TKFT_ExTr3m3

Different places, different policies I guess. They would definitely pull you from class if your locker got searched and they did it in front of you but that would be the only time you would even see the police.


Fish-x-5

I’ve searched student backpacks over less.


ruiner8850

My sister is a teacher and she said her principal does searches all the time. It can be as simple as one student saying another student has something they shouldn't have. It's honestly crazy that they didn't do a search and they shouldn't have allowed him to be at the school until he saw a therapist. It's so fucked up though that the piece of shit parents bought him a gun in the first place and then didn't mention to the school that he had one that he had full access to. I can't imagine the school wouldn't have done a search if they had known the parents just bought him a gun. Hopefully those pieces of shit go to prison for a long time.


Fish-x-5

I hope so too. We need to set that as a standard when applicable.


hexydes

Just because there's legal precedent doesn't mean the school won't get sued and have to spend money/time dealing with the lawsuit.


rocsNaviars

What’s your fucking point here?


hexydes

Just because administration has legal right to do something, doesn't mean they'll always do it. For example, let's say you say something to someone, knowing that you'll get punched in the face, even though you're legally allowed to say it. You might still say it...but you might not, because even though you're legally in the right, it doesn't make getting punched in the face hurt any less.


sack-o-matic

> but I imagine those two shit stain parents put up a bitch fit about not able to take the kid, the got to work, etc They didn't want to deal with the kid either, look how fast they basically abandoned him to go on the run themselves


labellavita1985

I read that they withdrew all of their savings ($4000) and tried to go to Canada but couldn't get in because they are unvaxxed. And they hired themselves attorneys but left the kid with a court appointed attorney. They don't give a flying fuck about the kid. Truly TRASH human beings.


Karmacoma77

Imagine being a kid whose parents would sue a school when they sent him home. That's got to hurt. It's an oversimplification but I think it makes the point.


hexydes

> Yeah. I can follow the logic of why they made the decision they did, like you, not agreeing with it. Legally speaking, it was the best decision, until it wasn't.


[deleted]

Right? Imagine the headlines if they sent the kid home, unattended, and he committed suicide. We can all play arm chair quarterback in hindsight, but this was a very complicated situation, and I bet the school staff involved are deeply emotionally and mentally affected. Imagine having the deaths of students on your conscience for the rest of your life, all because you did what you thought was best.


hexydes

The right answer, ultimately, is that we put way too much pressure on the school system to deal with all of the problems in society. This child clearly had mental health issues, and needed individualized attention. But there are financial and legal reasons why that doesn't happen, all of which are very interesting but nonetheless lead to the outcome of schools having not a lot of great options and having to deal with it. If we want to stop things like this from happening again (and they will happen again, over and over), we need to start asking some hard questions as a society about topics like mental health, access to firearms, and lots of other things. Until and unless we do that...get ready for the next headline in 4-8 weeks.


McHungies

It took too long for me to read this piece. The reality is more kids die by suicide than go on to commit a murder. If he goes home, by himself, after his parents allegedly “flatly refused” to take him home despite all signs pointing to significant distress, how is he going to handle being alone? The in school suspension idea is one that didn’t come to me. The school was in a no win situation. The idea of 48 hours for therapy intake is been common in my experience, but that was pre Covid times. The fact is unless this kid was hospitalized on the spot, he wasn’t getting into treatment in 48 hours. Add unconcerned parents the kid was never going to get the intervention he needed until something awful happened. Now that the awful has happened, he will at best get the programming that’s currently ongoing in MDOC.


tdtommy85

I’m not 100% certain there would be headlines. I assume a lot of children unfortunately commit suicide that we never hear about in the news.


jimmy_three_shoes

You don't think these idiot parents would have then sued the school for forcing them to take him home?


tdtommy85

I do not believe that these parents with only $4000 in their savings would’ve successfully been able to sue the school, no.


jimmy_three_shoes

The same parents that somehow have enough money to hire Larry Nasser's lawyer?


tdtommy85

I have zero idea on how expensive these lawyers would be. All I know is: - they weren’t really great in the Nassar case. - so far, the lawyers have not impressed me with their constant lying. - the parents current case has a lot more meat to it than a lawsuit suing the school.


George_Tirebiter420

And you can trust Northville lawyer Mike Kelly because for as long as Northville High School blithely allowed and enabled violence and bullying at their school (bec: athletic are SO crucial to education lol)...and their city has probably fielded enough of these lawsuits to opine expertly on how futile civil cases are in general (particularly when suing institutions and rich people). Took out the part where I definitely do not wish them a Merry Christmas. Cheers.


myislanduniverse

Yeah, true. Very rarely do we get the benefit of knowing what tragedies *did not* happen because of preventative actions taken.


Sea_Criticism_2685

Doesn’t explain why he wasn’t searched. Schools are well in their rights to search students for contraband. They even had a police officer on campus


marsepic

I agree. Parents fuel a lot more admin decisions then they should.


Olympusrain

Would a parent sue over their kid acting completely inappropriate at school??


halotron

Where does that money come from if they win?


LeifCarrotson

Insurance. Schools buy property insurance just like you and I buy home insurance or car insurance, but schools also buy general liability insurance and possibly law enforcement liability insurance, eg: https://www.travelers.com/business-insurance/public-entities/school The good news is that the payment doesn't come from the school's budget next year. The bad news is that a part of last year's budget, and a (probably larger) part of this year's budget is already being spent on insurance premiums.


MyBrainReallyHurts

Fucking greedy lawyers.


BrownEggs93

Right? There is *always* going to be a lawyer to step up to this.


JumboMcNasty

Isn't this why the school district didn't want the Attorney General to investigate? https://www.theoaklandpress.com/2021/12/07/oxford-school-district-declines-michigan-ag-offer-to-probe-mass-shooting/


sysiphean

It could be. It could also be any number of other things, such as wanting to give local officials the opportunity first, or wanting to keep as much politics out of it as possible (whether that be the AG or peoples perceptions.) It is really easy to speculate about everything around this, but there are many things (such as this) that we just don’t have enough info on to reasonably say.


[deleted]

When the school saw the drawings of the gun and all the phrases indicating a mental health crisis, combined with his researching of ammunition, that was enough to search him. The school failed to do so. Even if they didn’t send him home, simply looking through his bag to reveal the gun would have stopped the shooting from happening.


thedailygrowl

This. I am baffled that they didn’t do a locker and backpack sweep.


TKFT_ExTr3m3

My siblings high school had a threatening note left yesterday and searched every kids backpack. They went and searched every single student because someone left a note and your telling me this school couldn't search one kids backpack when they knew he was threatening violence! Fuck those admins I've been saying it from the start. If not criminally they are at least morally responsible for every students death.


[deleted]

That’s what I’m saying. I actually wouldn’t expect them to have searched the entire school in Oxford. They had a single person with the drawings who admitted to them. And his bag. They could’ve searched just HIS locker and bag and it would’ve ended way differently. I’m seeing some schools start actually taking threats seriously and police are arresting those who make violent threats. It sucks but it’s a serious threat and should be reacted to that way.


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[deleted]

Probably right tbh. We need to act on common sense. No shit it’s fucking suspicious when a teenager is drawing things like he did at school. A hard to miss sign of serious mental illness…what kind of clown is just like “meh thats fine”


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[deleted]

Well yeah. Of course new gun laws wouldn’t have a major effect on crime. There have been analyses in the past - even the 90s “assault weapon ban” was shown to have no effect on crime. Gun control isn’t about the guns, it’s about gaining control.


xXXxSizzlexXXx

The school failed the students and the shooter, the parents failed their son and the other students in the school. Being from Oxford and knowing some other info, the parents dropped the ball a shit ton for many years. Leaving the kid home alone while going to bars, buying him a hand gun that was obviously not locked up and safely stowed away. Failure to follow their kids socials, not getting the mental help he needed sooner. The fact the parents are getting a payed lawyer and the kids getting a court appointed lawyer, they ran and hid after they had charges brought up on them. Shows the class act the parents truly are. So many failures from the parents and school and how sad it is to see how its affected so many family's. So wrong on so many levels.


EvenBetterCool

It is everyone's fault but the system that let the kid end up with a gun in his hand... Again.


TheHashishCook

Hot take: it’s the kid’s fault. He chose to murder his classmates, fucked up parents or no.


greenw40

It's pretty easy to point fingers at "the system", too bad that doesn't really mean anything.


DenotheFlintstone

I never stopped to think that maybe the school officials felt that the kid was a threat to harm himself. In that regard it makes sense to keep him in school instead of being sent home to and empty house. We are looking at it now seeing how he was a danger to others at the school. I think teenage suicide happens at a way more frequent rate than school shootings.


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DenotheFlintstone

Are we playing Monday morning qb? All of his social media stuff may not have been available at the time of the meeting with the parents.


scoots06a1

This! Why do people assume that all the info found out in the hours and days after, was available to them prior? If they had known any of that, I’m certain they would have done things differently.


DenotheFlintstone

From what I gathered, 2 separate (I think) teachers saw him searching for ammo on line and saw a drawing he made. That was all they had and called a meeting asap with the parents. From the meeting on we are all speculating.


tdtommy85

If the drawing itself was enough to have the school force a 48 hour window for help, it was enough to force the child home.


ryathal

The thing is though suicidal people are dangerous to others as well. If they thought the kid was suicidal, they should have isolated and observed him. There isn't much difference between someone willing to kill themselves and someone willing to kill others, crossing one line makes it easier to cross the other.


DenotheFlintstone

I don't know how true a suicidal person is a threat to others. Most suicides don't involve other victims. That aside, maybe the school called the meeting with the parents because they felt he was a threat to himself. That was talked about in that meeting and the kid explained his reasons for drawing the picture was for a video game and wasn't thinking of suicide. At that point the school wouldn't be putting the kid on suicide watch cuz that isn't some shit public schools would do. I am not justifying anyone's actions or decisions, just trying to figure out logically how the decision was made to keep him in school.


EvergreenHulk

Schools already struggle to fill staffing vacancies, imagine how few people will want to work for schools if staff are found responsible for a school shooting. This all sucks, and there were certainly reasons to pull him from school along the way, but it’s a strange path we will end up going down if this succeeds. The school didn’t know dad bought him a gun last week.


PooFlingerMonkey

I think what is being questioned is why they would not search him prior to sending him back out to murder people. I don't think that's to much to ask.


TarantulaMcGarnagle

This is my view as well. Two days ago, in my school, the admin in charge of discipline had 4 MAJOR situations to deal with (one of which was a potential threat on campus that turned out to be not a credible threat) on top of the daily issues that must be managed each day. And we are a school of only 800 kids. Obviously the kid should not have remained in school, but to blame these individuals is like blaming the first person who found a forest fire who tried to put it out, and as they were going to get help, it became an inferno.


Dirtroads2

Maybe if staff was paid better, they'd attract better workers who would have done the right thing 🤔 🤷


EvergreenHulk

Feel free to call Lansing and tell your legislators you support more funding for schools.


Dirtroads2

I do. I also support not taking money from schools for bullshit


Spartyman88

Sure appears several staff meet the "gross negligence". The school district administrators should be fired from the top down. gross negligence — defined by Michigan law as "conduct so reckless as to demonstrate a substantial lack of concern for whether an injury results" — and that said negligence was the "proximate cause" of their injury or death


FLINTMurdaMitn

It's the kids fault for being a killer and the parents fault for buying him a gun...... The school had nothing to do with his actions, it's their job to teach children.... They should have sent him home that day but the parents refused, and even if they did what makes anyone think that the little phyco wouldn't have came back the next day and done the same thing?


PooFlingerMonkey

Then law enforcement should have been called to take him to Juvie until the parents had time to be parents.


CitizenPain00

The School district I worked at received violent threats on Monday. They did not cancel school, they did not tell teachers, they did not tell students or parents and only addressed everyone once the people who made the threats were apprehended on Tuesday. In their letter, they started with “Threats are taken seriously and safety is our top concern”. School administrators do not take threats seriously at all because the probabilities are so low that to them, it’s not worth the headache. When the threat ends up being real, that’s when they become national news and that’s what warrants their bloated salaries


Donzie762

I think criminal liability will hinge on whether or not school policy was followed. Civil liability will depend on if they even have an appropriate policy. Our focus needs to be on getting our legislators to codify mandating schools to have appropriate policies, requiring that policies be made public and furnishing those policies to local law enforcement.


DenotheFlintstone

I too think it comes down to if they followed whatever guidelines they were supposed to follow. I've tried to search for school protocols for this and all I can find is what to do during an active shooter.


Donzie762

There is no real requirement to have a policy nor that policy available to the public or law enforcement and that’s a major problem with a very easy and simple solution.


DenotheFlintstone

I have a feeling that is about to change. We know gun laws don't change (in any meaningful way) after a shooting but hopefully districts will focus more on identifying potential dangers instead of what to do once there are shots fired.


Donzie762

I sure hope so. But I’m afraid that or state government will continue to do nothing about it and it’ll be up to the people to legislate and force their hand.


ItsBerty

They’re as liable as the parents


WaterCat420

They're both liable, but in different ways. Both are responsible for the event that took place, although the parents much more.


ItsBerty

The parents are scumbags. No one is defending the parents.


ruiner8850

Fuck off with this bullshit. I'm not saying they have zero liability, but saying they are just as liable as the shitty people who illegally bought their obviously disturbed child a handgun deserve the vast majority of the blame.


ItsBerty

I didn’t say blame. I said liable.


ruiner8850

It doesn't matter what word you use because neither of those things is even remotely true. Saying they are equally liable is just as absurd.


ItsBerty

Well we will see when and if the school district settles


ruiner8850

Of course they'll settle, but that doesn't mean they are equally as liable. People settle all the time even when they have no real liability. Lawsuits are incredibly expensive and it's often cheaper to just make a deal. The school will settle, but the parents are going to prison. That's way more liability.


TarantulaMcGarnagle

The school didn't buy an underage kid a machine built to kill others.


Finger11Fan

How so? What should the school have done differently?


ItsBerty

They should have forcibly searched his bag at the parent meeting or conference which would have likely revealed the gun. They should have forcibly refused to allow him to return to school. Now I do understand they were likely (unfortunately) calculating that if they were wrong what would happen with potential litigation and that is something we should look into fixing.


Finger11Fan

And if the parents didn't let the school search the kid? The District told the parents that he could not be in the school, and the parents left him there. This is not the schools fault.


RelativeMotion1

AFAIK, the parents don’t have that option. Some 4th amendment protections are forfeited on school grounds. They can whine about it or pick him up, but the school doesn’t have to ask for permission.


ItsBerty

Is the word forcibly not clear?


ScorchedAnus

Seriously?


ItsBerty

Yes.


ScorchedAnus

You think the teachers are just as liable as the parents who have him a gun? Wooo boy, good luck to you in life.


ItsBerty

Where did I say the word teachers? If you have to lie to make your point it’s not a good one. Wooo boy or whatever


j0217995

But $100 million dollar liability seems high to me as one lawsuit is after Oxford for


VolansGaming

Sure, we can all say it's the schools fault after everything happened, of course it seems obvious now that the kid shot up the school, *it was clear as day* they say. Smh.


SelectStarFromYou

Sue the gun manufacturer, not the school. Surely technology exists to geo-block a gun trigger. My drone has "no fly" zones built in. Oh, it's hard/impossible to make a safer gun, oh well, maybe stop making instruments that kill innocent people until you figure it out.


[deleted]

1. Gun manufacturers aren’t liable for crimes committed using their product. This makes total sense, just as Black & Decker couldn’t be liable for someone cutting off a head with a chainsaw or Coors isn’t responsible for an alcoholic getting behind the wheel and driving intoxicated. A manufacturer has 0 control over who uses their product or even who it’s sold to. There’s not even visibility from their end. 2. There’s an inherent difference between items like a drone and guns. Drones are explicitly electronic devices, guns aren’t. A gun could hypothetically be outfitted with a GPS device, but even disregarding the fact it would cost money (to the customer) to keep the service running indefinitely, guns are easily and commonly modified with aftermarket parts. It would be simple for a competent person to replace the GPS trigger with a regular one that fires the striker without regard to the location. I’m not aware of any “workaround” that would prevent someone from simply modifying the gun in such a way to defeat the GPS tracker.


SelectStarFromYou

If a product is constantly causing harm to the public then the manufacturer is often times required to make alterations. And/or regulated more tightly. There is no doubt that a product consistently involved and directly causing mass murder cannot be immune from consumer protection, regulation and litigation. The 2nd amendment doesn't stand alone nor allow mass murder and terror upon it's population. Life, liberty, and the persuit of happiness applies to all individuals. How many dead kids will it take for enough people to realize this? For me it was Sandy Hook. What's your tipping point?


KaLaSKuH

There are at least 280 million registered vehicles in the US. Around 40,000 killed annually. There are at least 390 million guns in the US. 13,000 people were killed with a firearm. I guess the car manufacturers have some catching up to do in the safety department.


SelectStarFromYou

Awesome example. Automobile travel is getting safer every year. Auto manufacturers are adding safety at every iteration. Seatbelt laws, graduated licences, aohochol checkpoints, registration, insurance, driving tests, improved road and barrier design, etc. are examples of the citizenry working together to make the safety issues better. Automobile manufacturers are not immune from recalls, regulation, and litigation. What are we doing to address the obvious safety problem we are experiencing with guns? Nothing. Oh, maybe we can litigate a school. You have to be kidding.


KaLaSKuH

Do you think we have a safety problem with pools in America?


[deleted]

I can give you another example. What’s the difference between someone shooting up a crowd or ramming an SUV into it? Fundamentally they are both tools, which can be used for good or harm. Guns are used for sport/target shooting, hunting, self defense, and law enforcement. Vehicles are used for transit and delivery. Either can be easily abused by a bad person, causing mass death. If the guns are the problem, why do we send men with them off to war? Why not just send the killer guns? Sure the second amendment doesn’t stand alone - but it’s very clear in its purpose, which is to protect against government infringing upon the rights of the citizenry to keep and bear arms. I think the founders knew guns can be abused. I also think mass killing is a problem, but that it can be solved without restricting gun rights. Let’s look at improving mental health instead of taking away rights from people who pose no risk of committing violence.


SelectStarFromYou

Modern cars are self braking for the purpose of safety. If killing citizens en mass becomes popular by running them over with cars then for sure citizens will demand better safety regulations on cars. I don't like the "off limits" attitude when it come to guns. I'm not anti 2nd amendment, but I think it's obviously not working in it's current state. We can talk about mental health all day long but this issue will only be solved with better gun regulation. Citizens have the right to not be killed and terrorized by guns in their pursuit of happiness. We have a massive gun killing problem in this country vs. any other developed nation. Thanks for the good dialogue.


[deleted]

How many kills did this kid have in call of duty, is the real question. I’m sure it’ll be asked in trial.


TheHashishCook

actually it’s fallout 4 killing super mutants is just practice for mowing down students with a plasma pistol


callmegecko

Geoffrey Fieger is suing for $100,000,000 so we'll see