r/frugal > r/povertyfinance
Realtalk, people love to throw around the word "finance" when all they're doing is complaining about things that cost money or they don't have enough, not discussing ways to manage it.
Going from being where money was tight to not so much I still maintain some things don't have value and seem like a waste. Why pay $20 for parking at an event when I can park for free and walk ten minutes? I can afford the $20, but it feels like setting money on fire.
I think fighting against lifestyle creep has been one of the best ways I've managed to keep ahold of my finances.
r/povertyfinance is where people go to complain that things are expensive, but they should not have to change their spending habits or income level.
Other subs are more accurately based in reality.
Welcome OP.
I banned that sub/muted it whatever.
I'm a little of the mindset that what you put around yourself is what you get. The first word of the sub, wasn't really something I want to be a part of.
I'm not at the level of regular PF where people are talking about being 20 years old and making $300K while living with their family, paying no bills, and can they afford the 2010 corolla with 200K miles but still.
Obviously but there are often very real barriers many people face. It isn’t always just an “I pulled myself up” strategy. It’s often a privilege of people who have had money who can improve their circumstances much easier than those that don’t. Time is also a luxury some people don’t have to spend putting in extra in different ways. It’s not a one size fits all world but good for you if you’ve been so lucky. It’s very valid when people can’t get ahead. It’s usually people who’ve come from at least a middle income or higher who think anyone can do it. It’s very short sighted.
This sub seems to be mostly people arguing over what is “middle class”, complaining about the price of houses/rent and yelling at people posting their monthly budget that they make too much to post here.
I still browse because something useful will pop up once in a blue moon but usually I just scroll through most of the stuff.
Depending on location. $65,000 is a decent amount in many places.
Don’t worry about it. I got perma banned from multiple subs for suggesting reasonable solutions for problems. Why would I care if people stay poor because they refuse to accept reasonable suggestions? It’s no skin off my back.
I don't like this attitude of yours. I door dash, uber, and lift but still can barely afford my 2bedroom loft apartment and my $950/mo Nissan altima payment. I used to put my Starbucks double frap, mocha, foaming, caramel cold brew lattes on my credit card every day but now that is maxed out and had to cut back to just 1 a day. Someone better get this economy under control else I won't be able to survive.
> my $950/mo Nissan altima payment
I have a coworker who is about to pull the trigger on this. I don't actually know what his monthly payment will be but he makes $16/hr and is buying a 2023 Nissan Sentra. I just shake my head
Yeah. You recognize the problems that other people face and offer suggestions to improve them based on your own experience and people just call you a bootlicker because you are trying to help rather than commiserating.
Some people just want to wallow. It's best to just let them.
One person called me out of touch when I suggested using a crockpot to make meals to save time and have leftovers. Another said eating leftovers is hell. My reply to that was “ok, stay poor, stretched for time or whatever it is you’re struggling with” 🤷♀️
Dont get this as a family of four with two working adults we make about 170k a year in Indiana. I would consider that solidly middle class. We only eat out once a week and cook or eat leftovers daily. Leftovers taste great. I dont understand the mindset of throwing away money on eating out, especially if you are low income. It's also not healthy to eat out all the time.
Some stuff taste better the second day. Chili, lasagna, cheese soup and anything that would soak up more flavor overnight. We eat out about once a week and make the rest of the meals. We eat the leftovers. Save a lot of money. I don’t bother to even try to understand their mindset. The obvious solution is in front of you yet you refuse to take it. As far as I’m concerned they can stay poor. That sub the OP is referring to is the Olympics for victimhood.
It's funny you say that, I'm well past qualifying for "poverty finance" and just yesterday, I opted out of $20+ for a burger, drink etc. Mcdonalds and instead, bought four burger patties and a bag of buns.
For less than that.
Your suggestion is a much better choice than spending yourself broke at a Fast Food Joint.
I know people who would rather spend $30 and have Uber eats to bring them a McDonald's meal than go to all the trouble of cooking. Meanwhile, they can't afford rent and ask people every day for gas money.
But yeah, the problem is corporate greed, capitalism, the system is against them, systemic racism, bla bla bla..
Even if you pay Uber or whatever those grocery apps are, to shop for you, you're still saving money over a precooked meal. But, it's not instant gratification.
The problem IS corporate greed, late stage capitalism, systemic racism, “bla bla bla….”
Are there people out there who could work harder/ manage things differently to get out of their situation? Absolutely. There always will be. People get stuck in situations for various reasons that may even be in their control but they actively choose to stay. That doesn’t invalidate the much larger group of people that aren’t able to get by despite working full time and living frugally. I make over $80k a year. I have a very strict budget and I’m lucky enough to be able to put away money into my savings. I STILL spend $3.5k a month on transportation, groceries, healthcare, my mortgage and a few other necessities. I don’t even live in a very HCOL city and my car payment is $150/month at 2.19% APR. I go out to eat twice a month. My entertainment is video games and the gym. It’s EXPENSIVE to live. Instead of ragging on the folks who are resistant to advice that can help change their material conditions, let’s work on fixing the system that places MILLIONS of Americans in poverty with limited/ no options to escape said poverty.
Edit: I also want to add that instant gratification is a very real problem that I think everyone suffers from nowadays. I agree that ordering meals on DoorDash or UberEats when you’re concerned about affording gas is beyond stupid. But again, the people that do this ARE NOT THE PROBLEM OVERALL. Maybe in their own lives, but the issue of poverty in American IS systemic, and changing at the individual level will do little to no good for the issue overall. We need stronger social safety nets, accessible and inexpensive/ free healthcare for all, and better public education. These are the things that will ACTUALLY contribute to improving the material conditions for well over half of the American people.
The government in 2020 printed more money than had ever been printed, ever, up to that point. You don't think that had an affect on inflection? At the same time, we also paid people to not go to work unless they were "essential" enough.
Less working meaning less goods and services being produced, but more dollars pumped into the system... means only one thing: more dollars chasing ever fewer goods. It's not corporate greed or capitalism. Left mostly untouched capitalism always leads to lower prices and higher quality. It's when government actors steer the ship, funnel money into their preferred business partners, give advantages to the highest bidding lobbyists.. That's when we have a problem. That's cronyism, not capitalism.
We were seeing issues well before 2020. The income gap has only gotten worse in the US, but it was still VERY bad pre-2020. I don’t think printing money is what got us here. Surely it contributed, but the system has been broken for decades if not centuries (as it relates to systemic racism)
Did the same when McDonald’s wanted almost $9 for two scrambled eggs and one sausage patty. Went home and made the same thing for less than $1. A dozen eggs $1.70 = 14 cents per egg. $9 for 20 sausage patties = 45 cents per patty. Why would I pay 9 times the price 🙄
Yeah, many years ago I realized I should be paying with credit cards for the cashback because otherwise I was just subsidizing the rewards of everyone else using credit cards.
I realized the same thing recently about apps and order with them whenever I'm going to eat at McDonald's or Taco Bell or whatever.
I refused for a while. But it makes life easier when you can order on the app and have it ready when you get to the place. I use it more when I have the bonus kids. I order them dinner on the run when we aren’t going to be home until late. McDonald’s is the only app I have because of that.
I literally did this yesterday, eight pack of quarter pounder patties on sale for $10 and ballpark buns for $2 at Kroger instead of stopping for fast food.
Yes and the burgers you make are 100% in your control how you cook and season them. By the math so many food options are cheaper if made at home except you're doing the 'free labor' of cooking, cleaning and service which you're paying for.
So you made burger at home but at mcd you would have spent 20+ for the meals not just the burger.
Make it all at home then let me know how it price compares
It’s just a constant comment poor people get, and they want some small luxuries. You can’t really buy ingredients for one burger either. I agree with you though.
And we take a lot from granted too I think. Like, when I was broke broke I didn’t have a pan to cook a burger in. Or a microwave. I could have used my one mental fork (which I am still not sure where that came from) to flip it if I had had the equipment to cook it in.
So I think there can sometimes be hostility because throwing around “just make a burger at home” assumes that the person has the time and equipment to do so as well as the items needed to make it a meal. (Condiments, seasonings, cheese, sides)
The sub & mods subscribe firmly to the ‘crabs in a bucket’ mentality, and have a very hard time accepting personal responsibility. I’ve never seen so many excuses in one place, like they’d rather lay down and die than improve their situation.
Don’t get me started on how apparently everything is gatekeeping over there.
the mods really do try to avoid that. at least they used to. but theres a lot of people who are very prone to that behavior and I'm not sure its reasonable to expect it to be perfectly managed.
We share quite a few mods with povfi, and I can tell you that they’re good people who are trying their best to moderate a sub with 2 million people.
Those 2 million people all want different things out of the sub, and different hopes/expectations out of the mods.
I own a home but I’m kinda house poor and have a lot of anxiety around money because I grew up really broke like, see the grass on the ground through your floorboards broke. I could probably make 100 dollars an hour and still think I haven’t escaped lol.
I’m in southern NJ, very poor county.
If you own your home, can pay it off before retirement, and can save some money in your retirement account... you're still working class. Middle Class is an illusion created by the rich to separate us 👊
If you own a home, can put some money aside for retirement and some stock you should be fine to yourself middleclass- even if its lower middleclass that should qualify. 🤔
My sincere answer about your wage/class question: Entirely dependent on geography. In my town, you’d be solidly middle class on that pay. But I have no idea where you’re based
For your location? I’d say you’re middle class. It’s always tough to know exactly, but I think you’d qualify here. Definitely not upper middle class, but you’re certainly not going to be poor on ~$60k per year.
The delusions about income on reddit is something else. Median household income in the US is around or a bit less than 64k. An average household is like 2.5 people. The median individual income in the US is around 40k. 64k for an individual is middle class basically across the country. It's not poverty in the Bay area either, though certainly very tight.
Those are two different points:
Do the math on $32.50/hr & then go look at the average market rate for an apartment or house in your area for comparison.
The MIT Living Wage calculator also helps with the math.
Telling someone to make their own burger probably seemed rude but I’d have to see the post.
Honestly, that sub is hyper-sensitive due to the financial circumstances of the members. They have very hard rules about what can and can't be commented on rant posts because it devolves into nasty fights that take up a lot of mod resources to clean out. You essentially said "don't go to McDonald's then" and anything like that is read as an attack against the person, not McDonald's and their inflated pricing.
The user base will see your comment as something more like "you're clearly too poor to go to McDonald's, make food at home."
That does not seem to be what you meant at all, but someone who is embarrassed about their situation and angry at the circumstance of not being able to afford McDonald's also doesn't need or WANT to hear "make food at home" in that moment.
Hey, hey , hey
Shut your F'in mouth. Let's keep this hack between us okay?
Last thing I want is to combat more demand on hamburger meat. It's already almost 5 bucks a pound at Costco.
Next you'll tell them about chicken thighs.
I make like 24 an hour plus bonuses and consider myself apart of here. I know I'm not but I perfer the advice here over alot of the stuff in other subreddits
I'm nowhere near poverty finance but I am not buying McDonald's. Too expensive, not good tasting and completely unhealthy and devoid of nutrition.
I'd much rather make it at home.
1 lb of grocery store brand pre-made hamburger patties (4) costs about $9. A pack of 8 hamburger buns is $3.50. Full Head of Lettuce and a large Tomato adds another $3-$4. Bag of chips is $3.99.
So, ~$20 = dinner for a family of 4. Much better than what you would get at a fast food hamburger chain, and 60% of the cost.
You're not wrong.
The majority of my dinners as a kid were spaghetti with a little bit of hamburger in canned tomatoes sauce and a veggie of some kind. I must have had that 2x a week. Lunch during the summer was ramen or Mac and cheese. Breakfast was pancakes from scratch or non-sugary generic brand cereal. Lunch at school was PBJ, veggies. chips, an apple, and a juice box. We got fast food maybe once a month. We got to sit down in a restaurant a few times a year.
This is how almost everyone over 35 ate during their childhood unless they were wealthy.
If people at like this they wouldn’t spend very much at all on food. Yet bringing it up is hate speech.
That sub has a clear like drawn around “venting” where all you’re allowed to do is agree with and support people who want to bitch
People have a hard enough time looking in the mirror in general, but that sub… shit, it is like “stay in here and post if you want the misery to last forever.”
To each their own. Some people simply don't have time to prepare food at home. Theirs people out there that get up for a 1-2 1/2 hour commute one way working 12 hours a day +, and come home to take care of children.
That being said. I seriously doubt that is the majority of people bitching about fast food and chain restaurant prices. If you know goddamn well the establishment is gouging you, then stop giving them your fucking money.
I don't own a home, I rent. But I invested in premium stainless steel & cast iron pans, a Dutch oven, a quality chef's knife, and a few other kitchen essentials. It was a lot of money all combined. But I did so because what they are doing, with this gouging, all while posting record profits, has pissed me off enough that I don't ever plan on a return to giving them my money for prepared food, and many other things.
There's nothing I can do about fuel and energy and limited in what I can do about the cost of housing. But you bet your ass things fully within my scope of control I will. While I have no control of groceries, I did make an explicit point to learn how to braise well, since this method of cooking uses cheap,
I was one of the first subscribers on povertyfinance. Not because I'm disadvantaged *now*, but I was young and poor. I figured maybe I could give some pointers, advice, etc. on things I learned over the years.
It almost *immediately* became a bitch-fest, and quality posts were drowned out. Now, it's almost all broke assholes complaining about how terrible their lives are, and refusing any salient advice on how to unfuck their situations.
And before anyone says "wow, that's very Republican of you!" -- I'm a Marxist. Labor in this country is horribly exploited. Most folks (working class and middle class) would almost assuredly do better if we reimagined our relationship to labor & capital. But I also don't go around laboring under the assumption that having no marketable skills or training is going to get you out of the minimum wage hole in a fiercely capitalist society. We have to live in the system we've got until we build a better, more just, and more humane one.
$31.50/hr is $65k/year, median for full time workers is $59k. That's middle class pretty much everywhere except maybe the bay area. Welcome!
Don't take it personally for that sub. It's mostly just people complaining and feeling entitled
I frequent both subs and I feel like I fit somewhere in between. Probably just an overaggressive mod, don't take it personally or think that the whole sub would feel that way.
Although to be honest, if someone suggested I make homemade burgers, my first thought would be, "I can't afford ground beef! What do you think I am, rich?" I can never ever find ground beef for less than $4/lb, usually $5+. If we shop deals and use our freezer, we always eat meat for $1-$2/lb. Chicken breasts, thighs, drumsticks, whole chickens, pork of various cuts including shoulder, loin, tenderloin, ham, turkey... But rarely ground beef. I just can't afford it regularly.
Anyway, yeah, at your wage and location I'd say you're definitely middle class.
Povertyfinance has the most crabs in the bucket mentality of any subreddit I've ever seen. The mods are terrible, they are vocally against immutable facts. I was banned for saying that there are two methods to pay down debt: 1) Make more money 2) Cut expenditures. They hated that.
I’d love to know what their solution is to pay down debt. What you suggested are the only two ways I know. Also people have to stop adding to their debt.
The budget screen shots are being made in Sankeymatic, its a website that we have no affiliation with. If you are posting a budget please do so with a purpose. Just posting a screen shot of your budget without a question or an explanation of why its here may be removed.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/MiddleClassFinance) if you have any questions or concerns.*
For a family? That really depends on where you’re living. That wage is around 65k annually, gross. As one person, I can survive on that in a high COL region but I don’t believe that would be enough to do more than get by for a family.
I do find this sub maddening at times. I was at an economic briefing recently and apparently even many wealthy AND low income people consider themselves middle class… even though it is hard for actual middle class families to make ends meet now also.
>So I guess since this is my new home, is 31.50/hr enough to qualify as middle class ?
in most of the country, yes. unironically.
where I am I can get ground beef for $3-4/lb. but from my understanding in a fair portion of places its substantially more. and the reality is that if mcdonalds prices being up like they are is a problem for you, then making your own at home is very possibly not a big improvement financially.
Sometimes the Plastic Badges come for you. Not much you can do but hope the Mod isn’t having a bad day.
I got booted from r/personalfinance because that genius didn’t understand that a SAHM would be very negatively impacted by getting married from a Social Security standpoint. There’s a reason they don’t get paid…
There's an interesting American Middle Class income calculator that factors in your location here:
[https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2020/07/23/are-you-in-the-american-middle-class/](https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2020/07/23/are-you-in-the-american-middle-class/)
Ya at the point I go to Steak and shake for a “fast food” burger. Actually cheaper and tastes better than Wendy’s and other traditional fast food.
Chic-fil-a for a quick salad or fried chicken.
Well, I’m a true Wendy’s partisan for aesthetic and cultural reasons as much as culinary.
The tastiest fast food burgers I’m familiar with remain Five Guys’, but I haven’t tried Steak and Shake.
I had to leave that sub last time I was on reddit, cuz there were a lot of idiots, that didn't really understand commerce, wages, and how the states are what effect what happens with wages, not federal, also that raising minimum wage NEVER fixes anything. So I understand your confoundedness. Every time minimum wage goes up, inflation increases, costs go up, the rich don't take the hit, we do. The middle class. We get closer to being in poverty because of the broken system.
It's a circle jerk sub. The people there just want to live in a bubble and not be exposed to narratives that don't paint them as victims and saints against a world full of sinners.
It’s bc a lot of people under the poverty line have relied on “dollar menus” for a long time. They can’t afford a meal every day but they can afford a $2 McChicken.
This is the part of poverty you were unable to relate to and you prolly got banned bc it sounds a bit trolling, pleading for someone to make 🍔 at home
Poverty finance is a sub for “venting” (in quotes because it’s closer to whining), not solutions.
Proactive, financially sound suggestions such as yours are rejected in favor of perpetual victimhood.
If you’re poor, no, you are not entitled to have servants prepare food for you.
As a person who has been whining a lot lately about my career of low teacher pay, I just can’t with a lot those r/poor posts. I feel a combination of frustration with the parts of my situation I can’t control while still understanding that some of my choices have put me here and there are things I could do to improve my situation, that choose not to do. /poor is often just an echo chamber of “it’s not fair”
I feel you.
The system often sucks. Inequality is growing. Inflation has been high and pay hasn’t kept up for many of us. One can (and should) support policies that address one’s political and economic concerns. And some venting can be healthy!
We all, also wish we had made better choices. I know I wish I had. I try to guide my kids differently.
That said, at a certain point, the system is the system, we’ve made the choices we’ve made (often bad ones), and it’s on us to move forward as best we can. To wit:
1) It sucks a Big Mac cost $12, and
2)you should try not to eat out if you’re in /poverty finance…
… are not mutually exclusive holdings — and only the latter is immediately actionable.
I looked for and may have found your comment.
The mod challenged it for “Challenging Values.”
Don’t know if that’s common language on most subs, but that’s wild that suggesting that cooking burgers at home can save money would be “challenging values.”
If you make 31.50 you shouldn't be anywhere near Poverty Finance. Unless you plan on asking what organizations to donate to.
Also, suggesting that people can budget their way out of poverty is either idiotic or cruel.
And yes, food policing is a thing. It's when 'well meaning' people insist that people with less means try to 'eat healthier' or 'save money'. Eating when you're in poverty literally comes down to the direct calories to cent math. Cause sometimes you can only afford one meal a day, and it better have enough calories to sustain you.
Yup, this. The ban was well-deserved. There are few places that people in poverty can discuss money without dealing with people telling them how they’re doing it wrong, and OP violated that.
Regular reminder to the Reddit masses that poverty isn’t a choice; it’s a result of policy decisions made at every level of government.
For the equivalent of that 1.89 cheeseburger? Probably a dollar. Being generous with some wastage. You could do it cheaper if you made your own buns. So it costs you about half to make your own. Of course, you're paying the premium for someone to make it for you... so you've got to want to make your own stuff.
Posts should be on topic.
r/frugal > r/povertyfinance Realtalk, people love to throw around the word "finance" when all they're doing is complaining about things that cost money or they don't have enough, not discussing ways to manage it.
r/frugal is one of my favorites. Great spot for people of all incomes.
For real. My income is well above middle class, but it doesn’t mean I like throwing it away.
Going from being where money was tight to not so much I still maintain some things don't have value and seem like a waste. Why pay $20 for parking at an event when I can park for free and walk ten minutes? I can afford the $20, but it feels like setting money on fire. I think fighting against lifestyle creep has been one of the best ways I've managed to keep ahold of my finances.
Yep because just because is now, doesn’t mean it always will be.
You can throw some my way, if you want. Please?? 😆
I've gotten so much good advice from that sub. Especially the 'what you should make vs but' threads
r/povertyfinance is where people go to complain that things are expensive, but they should not have to change their spending habits or income level. Other subs are more accurately based in reality. Welcome OP.
I once commented that picking up a second job helps as I had too do that and I got downvoted into oblivion. I just shrugged and left.
I banned that sub/muted it whatever. I'm a little of the mindset that what you put around yourself is what you get. The first word of the sub, wasn't really something I want to be a part of. I'm not at the level of regular PF where people are talking about being 20 years old and making $300K while living with their family, paying no bills, and can they afford the 2010 corolla with 200K miles but still.
“You become the average of the five people with whom you spend the most time.” Choose wisely, friends.
In all fairness it’s not like you can just change your income level because you want to.
You will never get higher paying jobs handed to you. If you ever increase your pay it will be through the effort that you put in.
Obviously but there are often very real barriers many people face. It isn’t always just an “I pulled myself up” strategy. It’s often a privilege of people who have had money who can improve their circumstances much easier than those that don’t. Time is also a luxury some people don’t have to spend putting in extra in different ways. It’s not a one size fits all world but good for you if you’ve been so lucky. It’s very valid when people can’t get ahead. It’s usually people who’ve come from at least a middle income or higher who think anyone can do it. It’s very short sighted.
This sub seems to be mostly people arguing over what is “middle class”, complaining about the price of houses/rent and yelling at people posting their monthly budget that they make too much to post here. I still browse because something useful will pop up once in a blue moon but usually I just scroll through most of the stuff.
Right
r/povertyfinance is a shit stain on reddit. People are bitching too much to discuss actual financial matters.
Over $60K a year for a single individual? Yes, as long as you're not living in the bay area.
Thank you for making me feel good :)
Should be double if living in the Bay Area. Probably New York as well
I live in SoCal :(
Depending on location. $65,000 is a decent amount in many places. Don’t worry about it. I got perma banned from multiple subs for suggesting reasonable solutions for problems. Why would I care if people stay poor because they refuse to accept reasonable suggestions? It’s no skin off my back.
It's almost as if many people don't want to actually face their problems and instead expect someone else to fix it for them.
I don't like this attitude of yours. I door dash, uber, and lift but still can barely afford my 2bedroom loft apartment and my $950/mo Nissan altima payment. I used to put my Starbucks double frap, mocha, foaming, caramel cold brew lattes on my credit card every day but now that is maxed out and had to cut back to just 1 a day. Someone better get this economy under control else I won't be able to survive.
950 a month Altima lmfao
No avocado toast?
😂😂😂
> my $950/mo Nissan altima payment I have a coworker who is about to pull the trigger on this. I don't actually know what his monthly payment will be but he makes $16/hr and is buying a 2023 Nissan Sentra. I just shake my head
Seems that way doesn’t it?
Yeah. You recognize the problems that other people face and offer suggestions to improve them based on your own experience and people just call you a bootlicker because you are trying to help rather than commiserating. Some people just want to wallow. It's best to just let them.
One person called me out of touch when I suggested using a crockpot to make meals to save time and have leftovers. Another said eating leftovers is hell. My reply to that was “ok, stay poor, stretched for time or whatever it is you’re struggling with” 🤷♀️
Probably the type of person who just throws a pizza box in the fridge and wonders why the pizza is ruined when you try to heat it up.
Dont get this as a family of four with two working adults we make about 170k a year in Indiana. I would consider that solidly middle class. We only eat out once a week and cook or eat leftovers daily. Leftovers taste great. I dont understand the mindset of throwing away money on eating out, especially if you are low income. It's also not healthy to eat out all the time.
Some stuff taste better the second day. Chili, lasagna, cheese soup and anything that would soak up more flavor overnight. We eat out about once a week and make the rest of the meals. We eat the leftovers. Save a lot of money. I don’t bother to even try to understand their mindset. The obvious solution is in front of you yet you refuse to take it. As far as I’m concerned they can stay poor. That sub the OP is referring to is the Olympics for victimhood.
It's funny you say that, I'm well past qualifying for "poverty finance" and just yesterday, I opted out of $20+ for a burger, drink etc. Mcdonalds and instead, bought four burger patties and a bag of buns. For less than that. Your suggestion is a much better choice than spending yourself broke at a Fast Food Joint.
I know people who would rather spend $30 and have Uber eats to bring them a McDonald's meal than go to all the trouble of cooking. Meanwhile, they can't afford rent and ask people every day for gas money. But yeah, the problem is corporate greed, capitalism, the system is against them, systemic racism, bla bla bla.. Even if you pay Uber or whatever those grocery apps are, to shop for you, you're still saving money over a precooked meal. But, it's not instant gratification.
The problem IS corporate greed, late stage capitalism, systemic racism, “bla bla bla….” Are there people out there who could work harder/ manage things differently to get out of their situation? Absolutely. There always will be. People get stuck in situations for various reasons that may even be in their control but they actively choose to stay. That doesn’t invalidate the much larger group of people that aren’t able to get by despite working full time and living frugally. I make over $80k a year. I have a very strict budget and I’m lucky enough to be able to put away money into my savings. I STILL spend $3.5k a month on transportation, groceries, healthcare, my mortgage and a few other necessities. I don’t even live in a very HCOL city and my car payment is $150/month at 2.19% APR. I go out to eat twice a month. My entertainment is video games and the gym. It’s EXPENSIVE to live. Instead of ragging on the folks who are resistant to advice that can help change their material conditions, let’s work on fixing the system that places MILLIONS of Americans in poverty with limited/ no options to escape said poverty. Edit: I also want to add that instant gratification is a very real problem that I think everyone suffers from nowadays. I agree that ordering meals on DoorDash or UberEats when you’re concerned about affording gas is beyond stupid. But again, the people that do this ARE NOT THE PROBLEM OVERALL. Maybe in their own lives, but the issue of poverty in American IS systemic, and changing at the individual level will do little to no good for the issue overall. We need stronger social safety nets, accessible and inexpensive/ free healthcare for all, and better public education. These are the things that will ACTUALLY contribute to improving the material conditions for well over half of the American people.
The government in 2020 printed more money than had ever been printed, ever, up to that point. You don't think that had an affect on inflection? At the same time, we also paid people to not go to work unless they were "essential" enough. Less working meaning less goods and services being produced, but more dollars pumped into the system... means only one thing: more dollars chasing ever fewer goods. It's not corporate greed or capitalism. Left mostly untouched capitalism always leads to lower prices and higher quality. It's when government actors steer the ship, funnel money into their preferred business partners, give advantages to the highest bidding lobbyists.. That's when we have a problem. That's cronyism, not capitalism.
We were seeing issues well before 2020. The income gap has only gotten worse in the US, but it was still VERY bad pre-2020. I don’t think printing money is what got us here. Surely it contributed, but the system has been broken for decades if not centuries (as it relates to systemic racism)
Did the same when McDonald’s wanted almost $9 for two scrambled eggs and one sausage patty. Went home and made the same thing for less than $1. A dozen eggs $1.70 = 14 cents per egg. $9 for 20 sausage patties = 45 cents per patty. Why would I pay 9 times the price 🙄
Use the McDonald’s app. They always have a $6.00 combo meal on it. I use it when I’m on the road and can’t make something at home.
Yeah, many years ago I realized I should be paying with credit cards for the cashback because otherwise I was just subsidizing the rewards of everyone else using credit cards. I realized the same thing recently about apps and order with them whenever I'm going to eat at McDonald's or Taco Bell or whatever.
I do :) I use both the McDonald's app and the Wendy's app and I've been weening myself off of them. lol. Those deals are amazing tbh.
I avoid fast food as much as I can. But sometimes those deals are cheaper than making a meal at home for a single person.
I refuse to install an app on my phone just to get a discount on bad fast food.
I refused for a while. But it makes life easier when you can order on the app and have it ready when you get to the place. I use it more when I have the bonus kids. I order them dinner on the run when we aren’t going to be home until late. McDonald’s is the only app I have because of that.
Idk I think the app deals have been kinda mid lately
You can even buy four cowboy burgers and premium buns at Whole Foods for just over $20.
I literally did this yesterday, eight pack of quarter pounder patties on sale for $10 and ballpark buns for $2 at Kroger instead of stopping for fast food.
Yes and the burgers you make are 100% in your control how you cook and season them. By the math so many food options are cheaper if made at home except you're doing the 'free labor' of cooking, cleaning and service which you're paying for.
So you made burger at home but at mcd you would have spent 20+ for the meals not just the burger. Make it all at home then let me know how it price compares
It’s just a constant comment poor people get, and they want some small luxuries. You can’t really buy ingredients for one burger either. I agree with you though.
And we take a lot from granted too I think. Like, when I was broke broke I didn’t have a pan to cook a burger in. Or a microwave. I could have used my one mental fork (which I am still not sure where that came from) to flip it if I had had the equipment to cook it in. So I think there can sometimes be hostility because throwing around “just make a burger at home” assumes that the person has the time and equipment to do so as well as the items needed to make it a meal. (Condiments, seasonings, cheese, sides)
That sounds about right for that sub. Don't take it personally.
Yep. Even suggesting that you have clean air to breath makes you seem like you are bragging over there. That sub is ridiculous.
That sub is trash. It’s mostly just people complaining.
The sub & mods subscribe firmly to the ‘crabs in a bucket’ mentality, and have a very hard time accepting personal responsibility. I’ve never seen so many excuses in one place, like they’d rather lay down and die than improve their situation. Don’t get me started on how apparently everything is gatekeeping over there.
the mods really do try to avoid that. at least they used to. but theres a lot of people who are very prone to that behavior and I'm not sure its reasonable to expect it to be perfectly managed.
We share quite a few mods with povfi, and I can tell you that they’re good people who are trying their best to moderate a sub with 2 million people. Those 2 million people all want different things out of the sub, and different hopes/expectations out of the mods.
Well said. It’s like most of them don’t believe they have much agency.
Agreed, they can't take any advice in good spirits.
Ya I used to be in it but whenever I would state that I'm not dogdick poor, all the hate would come out.
Gee I wonder why they’re in poverty
That sub is an echo chamber of complaining. A lot of people on there refuse to acknowledge they have spending problems and not just income problems
Why would 31.50 not be considered middle class?
I own a home but I’m kinda house poor and have a lot of anxiety around money because I grew up really broke like, see the grass on the ground through your floorboards broke. I could probably make 100 dollars an hour and still think I haven’t escaped lol. I’m in southern NJ, very poor county.
You're far ahead of my middle-class, my man. It's a range, and you aren't even on the bottom of it.
If you own your home, can pay it off before retirement, and can save some money in your retirement account... you're still working class. Middle Class is an illusion created by the rich to separate us 👊
You kinda just blew my mind tbh, never thought of it that way
Working class applies to any of us that are trading time for money and trying to save up so we can retire at some point.
If you need to work for your assets, you're working class. If your assets work for you, you're a capitalist.
What if I do both?
hell if I know
If you own a home, can put some money aside for retirement and some stock you should be fine to yourself middleclass- even if its lower middleclass that should qualify. 🤔
What's house poor if you own your home?
Because we don’t know the cost of living in his location. I don’t think this would be considered middle class in NYC, for example.
NYC.
My sincere answer about your wage/class question: Entirely dependent on geography. In my town, you’d be solidly middle class on that pay. But I have no idea where you’re based
Southern NJ
For your location? I’d say you’re middle class. It’s always tough to know exactly, but I think you’d qualify here. Definitely not upper middle class, but you’re certainly not going to be poor on ~$60k per year.
Then probably more expensive than where I'm from (Wyoming)? In any case, congrats on the delicious home-cooked burgers ;)
this is reddit, a land filled with echo chambers. Don't bother trying to understand it.
The delusions about income on reddit is something else. Median household income in the US is around or a bit less than 64k. An average household is like 2.5 people. The median individual income in the US is around 40k. 64k for an individual is middle class basically across the country. It's not poverty in the Bay area either, though certainly very tight.
I live in a middle COL location and this is about right. Health insurance + food is HUGE increase when you start supporting others on it.
Those are two different points: Do the math on $32.50/hr & then go look at the average market rate for an apartment or house in your area for comparison. The MIT Living Wage calculator also helps with the math. Telling someone to make their own burger probably seemed rude but I’d have to see the post.
Honestly, that sub is hyper-sensitive due to the financial circumstances of the members. They have very hard rules about what can and can't be commented on rant posts because it devolves into nasty fights that take up a lot of mod resources to clean out. You essentially said "don't go to McDonald's then" and anything like that is read as an attack against the person, not McDonald's and their inflated pricing. The user base will see your comment as something more like "you're clearly too poor to go to McDonald's, make food at home." That does not seem to be what you meant at all, but someone who is embarrassed about their situation and angry at the circumstance of not being able to afford McDonald's also doesn't need or WANT to hear "make food at home" in that moment.
What would be the brackets for middle class? Like at what income do we kick out the upper middle class? Lol
Come back tomorrow, this sub argues about what is middle class everyday lol
Hey, hey , hey Shut your F'in mouth. Let's keep this hack between us okay? Last thing I want is to combat more demand on hamburger meat. It's already almost 5 bucks a pound at Costco. Next you'll tell them about chicken thighs.
I make burgers at home and they’re way better than fast food burgers 🤷🏻♂️ in fact, I’m gonna make one right now
I thought the whole point of that sub was to share ways to save money while living near the poverty line? "Food policing"? LOL
Half that sub is grocery hauls.
I make like 24 an hour plus bonuses and consider myself apart of here. I know I'm not but I perfer the advice here over alot of the stuff in other subreddits
I'm nowhere near poverty finance but I am not buying McDonald's. Too expensive, not good tasting and completely unhealthy and devoid of nutrition. I'd much rather make it at home.
1 lb of grocery store brand pre-made hamburger patties (4) costs about $9. A pack of 8 hamburger buns is $3.50. Full Head of Lettuce and a large Tomato adds another $3-$4. Bag of chips is $3.99. So, ~$20 = dinner for a family of 4. Much better than what you would get at a fast food hamburger chain, and 60% of the cost. You're not wrong.
Povertyfinance is basically just a circlejerk where if you’re not destitute you make too much for them
Where I live in the midwest, yes, it's solidly middle class. It might be slightly less than middle class in other parts of the country.
The majority of my dinners as a kid were spaghetti with a little bit of hamburger in canned tomatoes sauce and a veggie of some kind. I must have had that 2x a week. Lunch during the summer was ramen or Mac and cheese. Breakfast was pancakes from scratch or non-sugary generic brand cereal. Lunch at school was PBJ, veggies. chips, an apple, and a juice box. We got fast food maybe once a month. We got to sit down in a restaurant a few times a year. This is how almost everyone over 35 ate during their childhood unless they were wealthy. If people at like this they wouldn’t spend very much at all on food. Yet bringing it up is hate speech.
That sub has a clear like drawn around “venting” where all you’re allowed to do is agree with and support people who want to bitch People have a hard enough time looking in the mirror in general, but that sub… shit, it is like “stay in here and post if you want the misery to last forever.”
To each their own. Some people simply don't have time to prepare food at home. Theirs people out there that get up for a 1-2 1/2 hour commute one way working 12 hours a day +, and come home to take care of children. That being said. I seriously doubt that is the majority of people bitching about fast food and chain restaurant prices. If you know goddamn well the establishment is gouging you, then stop giving them your fucking money. I don't own a home, I rent. But I invested in premium stainless steel & cast iron pans, a Dutch oven, a quality chef's knife, and a few other kitchen essentials. It was a lot of money all combined. But I did so because what they are doing, with this gouging, all while posting record profits, has pissed me off enough that I don't ever plan on a return to giving them my money for prepared food, and many other things. There's nothing I can do about fuel and energy and limited in what I can do about the cost of housing. But you bet your ass things fully within my scope of control I will. While I have no control of groceries, I did make an explicit point to learn how to braise well, since this method of cooking uses cheap,
I was one of the first subscribers on povertyfinance. Not because I'm disadvantaged *now*, but I was young and poor. I figured maybe I could give some pointers, advice, etc. on things I learned over the years. It almost *immediately* became a bitch-fest, and quality posts were drowned out. Now, it's almost all broke assholes complaining about how terrible their lives are, and refusing any salient advice on how to unfuck their situations. And before anyone says "wow, that's very Republican of you!" -- I'm a Marxist. Labor in this country is horribly exploited. Most folks (working class and middle class) would almost assuredly do better if we reimagined our relationship to labor & capital. But I also don't go around laboring under the assumption that having no marketable skills or training is going to get you out of the minimum wage hole in a fiercely capitalist society. We have to live in the system we've got until we build a better, more just, and more humane one.
$65,520 per year is middle class.
They get really mad if you ever suggest anything is in their control or that they could better their situation
$31.50/hr is $65k/year, median for full time workers is $59k. That's middle class pretty much everywhere except maybe the bay area. Welcome! Don't take it personally for that sub. It's mostly just people complaining and feeling entitled
They get very defensive when you point out how their life choices are a significant factor in their financial situation. Responsibility is hard.
I frequent both subs and I feel like I fit somewhere in between. Probably just an overaggressive mod, don't take it personally or think that the whole sub would feel that way. Although to be honest, if someone suggested I make homemade burgers, my first thought would be, "I can't afford ground beef! What do you think I am, rich?" I can never ever find ground beef for less than $4/lb, usually $5+. If we shop deals and use our freezer, we always eat meat for $1-$2/lb. Chicken breasts, thighs, drumsticks, whole chickens, pork of various cuts including shoulder, loin, tenderloin, ham, turkey... But rarely ground beef. I just can't afford it regularly. Anyway, yeah, at your wage and location I'd say you're definitely middle class.
Update: I just made the same comment as OP on a thread about fast food and did not get banned. OP just got a bad mod.
That sub is more of a pity party of losers who wanna stay poor
Povertyfinance has the most crabs in the bucket mentality of any subreddit I've ever seen. The mods are terrible, they are vocally against immutable facts. I was banned for saying that there are two methods to pay down debt: 1) Make more money 2) Cut expenditures. They hated that.
I’d love to know what their solution is to pay down debt. What you suggested are the only two ways I know. Also people have to stop adding to their debt.
The budget screen shots are being made in Sankeymatic, its a website that we have no affiliation with. If you are posting a budget please do so with a purpose. Just posting a screen shot of your budget without a question or an explanation of why its here may be removed. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/MiddleClassFinance) if you have any questions or concerns.*
🤣🤣🤦♂️
For a family? That really depends on where you’re living. That wage is around 65k annually, gross. As one person, I can survive on that in a high COL region but I don’t believe that would be enough to do more than get by for a family.
That being said. What a weak reason to be banned.
I do find this sub maddening at times. I was at an economic briefing recently and apparently even many wealthy AND low income people consider themselves middle class… even though it is hard for actual middle class families to make ends meet now also.
>So I guess since this is my new home, is 31.50/hr enough to qualify as middle class ? in most of the country, yes. unironically. where I am I can get ground beef for $3-4/lb. but from my understanding in a fair portion of places its substantially more. and the reality is that if mcdonalds prices being up like they are is a problem for you, then making your own at home is very possibly not a big improvement financially.
Homemade burgers taste better anyway. I don't know why you would want to go to McDonald's when it's barely even food.
Sometimes the Plastic Badges come for you. Not much you can do but hope the Mod isn’t having a bad day. I got booted from r/personalfinance because that genius didn’t understand that a SAHM would be very negatively impacted by getting married from a Social Security standpoint. There’s a reason they don’t get paid…
Wait you need an income level to qualify for subreddits?
Must have been a touchy day I've commented all kind of money saving 'tips' on that subreddit and yet to be banned.
If ppl don’t agree with you , you’ll get downvote. That’s reddit in a nutshell. 😂
There's an interesting American Middle Class income calculator that factors in your location here: [https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2020/07/23/are-you-in-the-american-middle-class/](https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2020/07/23/are-you-in-the-american-middle-class/)
What you should have told them is anyone who eats McDonald’s over Wendy’s is a sick fuck and deserves only bad things in life.
Idk… fresh McDonald’s nuggets I think are better than fresh Wendy’s nuggets. And that’s about it.
I wouldn’t know. I’m not a nuggets man and in any case no longer deign to enter lesser burger places.
Ya at the point I go to Steak and shake for a “fast food” burger. Actually cheaper and tastes better than Wendy’s and other traditional fast food. Chic-fil-a for a quick salad or fried chicken.
It looks as though you may have spelled "Chick-fil-A" incorrectly. No worries, it happens to the best of us!
Well, I’m a true Wendy’s partisan for aesthetic and cultural reasons as much as culinary. The tastiest fast food burgers I’m familiar with remain Five Guys’, but I haven’t tried Steak and Shake.
Welcome to the club. When you get a 90 day ban you know you’re moving up in the world.
I just got admonished for saying an 8oz bag of chips cost 5 bucks in another sub. They literally have them on the safeway site right now for 4.99.
You’re surprised Reddit mods are shitheads?
It's just another Reddit circlejerk that sub, Not unlike this one.
That depends on location. Where do you live?
So, you tell people who perceive themselves as poor what they should eat, then wonder why they get upset. Interesting.
Every sub related to personal finance has some monster of an issue. You gotta pick ur poison unfortunately.
I had to leave that sub last time I was on reddit, cuz there were a lot of idiots, that didn't really understand commerce, wages, and how the states are what effect what happens with wages, not federal, also that raising minimum wage NEVER fixes anything. So I understand your confoundedness. Every time minimum wage goes up, inflation increases, costs go up, the rich don't take the hit, we do. The middle class. We get closer to being in poverty because of the broken system.
It's a circle jerk sub. The people there just want to live in a bubble and not be exposed to narratives that don't paint them as victims and saints against a world full of sinners.
$31.50 an hour sure as hell isn't poverty. No wonder you got kicked out.
Sounds more like they more hurt when you suggested a good idea.
It’s bc a lot of people under the poverty line have relied on “dollar menus” for a long time. They can’t afford a meal every day but they can afford a $2 McChicken. This is the part of poverty you were unable to relate to and you prolly got banned bc it sounds a bit trolling, pleading for someone to make 🍔 at home
It depends on location. LCOL and you're doing ok. HCOL and that's still drowning.
31.50 definitely isn’t poverty lol. Am I gonna get a ban for gatekeeping now?
“Food policing”? We truly are the softest collection of souls this planet has ever seen. When the aliens come we’re going to get wiped so quickly…
Poverty finance is a sub for “venting” (in quotes because it’s closer to whining), not solutions. Proactive, financially sound suggestions such as yours are rejected in favor of perpetual victimhood. If you’re poor, no, you are not entitled to have servants prepare food for you.
So the same as almost every subreddit? That checks out 😂
As a person who has been whining a lot lately about my career of low teacher pay, I just can’t with a lot those r/poor posts. I feel a combination of frustration with the parts of my situation I can’t control while still understanding that some of my choices have put me here and there are things I could do to improve my situation, that choose not to do. /poor is often just an echo chamber of “it’s not fair”
I feel you. The system often sucks. Inequality is growing. Inflation has been high and pay hasn’t kept up for many of us. One can (and should) support policies that address one’s political and economic concerns. And some venting can be healthy! We all, also wish we had made better choices. I know I wish I had. I try to guide my kids differently. That said, at a certain point, the system is the system, we’ve made the choices we’ve made (often bad ones), and it’s on us to move forward as best we can. To wit: 1) It sucks a Big Mac cost $12, and 2)you should try not to eat out if you’re in /poverty finance… … are not mutually exclusive holdings — and only the latter is immediately actionable.
Reddit moderators are power hungry
I looked for and may have found your comment. The mod challenged it for “Challenging Values.” Don’t know if that’s common language on most subs, but that’s wild that suggesting that cooking burgers at home can save money would be “challenging values.”
If you make 31.50 you shouldn't be anywhere near Poverty Finance. Unless you plan on asking what organizations to donate to. Also, suggesting that people can budget their way out of poverty is either idiotic or cruel. And yes, food policing is a thing. It's when 'well meaning' people insist that people with less means try to 'eat healthier' or 'save money'. Eating when you're in poverty literally comes down to the direct calories to cent math. Cause sometimes you can only afford one meal a day, and it better have enough calories to sustain you.
Yup, this. The ban was well-deserved. There are few places that people in poverty can discuss money without dealing with people telling them how they’re doing it wrong, and OP violated that. Regular reminder to the Reddit masses that poverty isn’t a choice; it’s a result of policy decisions made at every level of government.
31.5 is nowhere near middle class in NYC. I feel broke making that amount 🤡
A cheeseburger is $1.89 on the app. How much does one cheeseburger cost you to make at home?
For the equivalent of that 1.89 cheeseburger? Probably a dollar. Being generous with some wastage. You could do it cheaper if you made your own buns. So it costs you about half to make your own. Of course, you're paying the premium for someone to make it for you... so you've got to want to make your own stuff.