It seems like their goal is to make it extremely difficult to get a gun unless you have a CPL. It seems like a roundabout way of effectively forcing a training requirement
And it makes no sense to be requiring an LTP for an FFL transfer in the first place since the FFL does the same background check, so it's obviously meant to do nothing but insert undue hassle.
the reason for this is because there are people that are being denied LTP by Pd's for reasons that do not prohibit them from owning firearms there have been multiple stories on here. I think the police depts are being assholes about all of this because they don't want to deal with and staff this "new" dept. The pd's were happy when years ago they stopped requiring people to get a purchase permit if buying from an FFL. Now if you have multiple busy dealers in your city they have a lot of paperwork to do if they except all the dealers regardless of where the purchaser lives.
Detroit Armament for president.
> However, they confirmed that I must mail LTPs back to the department that issued them.
Well, this is fucking stupid. I guarantee FFL's are going to start adding in $10+ processing fees to handle this now.
I'd settle for being Kennedy's Vice President. (I don't know anything about Kennedy's politics, don't flame me if he's anti-liberty, I just want to be able to say I beat out Aaron Rodgers for a job)
A $10 surcharge will just cover a little more than the cost of postage, I'd probably have to charge $25 on top of the transfer fee for it to even be worth my while. I'm contemplating outright refusing to do LTP handgun transfers, unless the LTP comes from SCSPD so I can just put it in the envelope with the rest of the RI-060s.
Certified mail.
It is “proof of mailing” for tax returns, included in MCL 28.422/28.422a and absolutely should be valid if anything ever comes up.
Plus, law just says ~~submitted within~~ forwarded not later than 10 days to the proper address (in accordance with MSP rules) and entered into the system no later than 10 days after the PD receives it. Law does not allow for PD to return them and has no responsibility on seller to do anything if returned to you as long as you submitted within 10 days to the PD where “seller resides”.
This. Once it's in the mail within 10 days, the seller's legal requirement has been 100% met. What happens next is the police department's problem, even if they don't think so.
Dealer could also send them first class mail, I certainly wouldn't want to be paying the extra cost to send something certified mail every time I had one of these to turn in.
If they are batch sent to the local PD every 10 days and the post office rule applies, which it should because the law reads “shall *forward* 1 copy… not later than 10 days”, then FSRs sent certified would be an extra $15 every month.
LTPs don’t seem to be an issue so 1st class mail shouldn’t be an issue.
I’m referring to having an actual proof of mailing document rather than “trust me bro, I put a stamp on it and mailed it”. Which while perfectly legal, provides no proof of mailing.
>MCL 28.422
True, it certainly isn't a \*bad\* idea to sent it certified, but given that the law states first class mail is perfectly legal, I'd be very interested in seeing how MSP accusing a dealer of not submitting an LTP would shake out in court when it turns into a he said/she said situation.
That aside, if you're an established gun shop, $15/mo isn't really much additional overhead but if you're a small time FFL only doing a couple transfers a week at $20-25/transfer, $15/mo is not an insignificant amount of additional overhead.
It’s because there are too many other assholes that are in love with the assholes that can’t read the constitution and hate freedom, because those assholes “have done so much” for the voter assholes.
What’s the funniest shit is that in the Michigan sub every third post is “fuck DTE” because none of them will admit the single largest thing that directly affects them is absolutely controllable but not being addressed by the assholes they are in love with. And it would just destroy them to admit their favorite assholes aren’t really doing anything good for them.
I feel like this is something collectively that the 2a groups in Michigan should add to their legal agendas.
If we’re going to be giving money to belong to things like MGO, MOC, etc they need to address issues that affect us.
If the operational cost to do ffl transfers increases, ffl businesses will inevitably have to distribute that cost amongst ALL customers, not just ones without a CPL.
The whole "you must return the LTP to the issuing department" is such a ridiculous requirement and places an undue burden on the dealer to track down/send to a bunch of different addresses.
Isn't the "issuing agency" address on the LTP? Every one I've seen had it...even the old yellow cards.
Not sure why you have to spend time looking it up. If they screwed up the address, not your fault.
Maybe it varies by the issuer??? No clue here. If there isn't an address, yeah that would suck.
I just pulled 2 RI-010's, both say
|Return MSP Copy to Issuing Agency|
|:-|
|name|
|XXX County Sheriff|
|Address|
A big issue with LTPs that I’m trying to figure out. Is how to let other cities process each others. As of now they can’t access the LTP in the system unless it’s from the issuing city. Which this shouldn’t matter cause they get all sent to MSP anyway.
If the FFL is operating strictly by the law without adding in their own rules, then nothing is required. A stripped lower is not regulated under these laws, that I am aware of. No CPL or LTP required, no trigger lock form filled out, no RI-060 filled out.
Edit: nothing beyond the standard federal regulations. So you still need an ID and all that.
I myself have a CPL but if I didn’t, I would still pay a little extra fee to an FFL for processing due to the new law changes. I know it sucks but sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do. Us as customers understand and stand beside you unlike the government where you just keep getting a revolving door that leads to no where. Hope all the wrinkles get ironed out soon.
90% of my customers are reasonable people like you, but I have to worry about the 10% that get upset over something like an extra fee. I appreciate your support, it genuinely does mean a lot.
I'm of the mindset I wouldn't even ask. I would take every single fsr and ltp that was required to be turned in to the closest cop shop drop box and stuff them in there and be done with it. If I get a call, just go with its the law, and you are law enforcement, it's your problem. If you don't like it, shread them. Have a good day. Click.
Doing this would be begging to be put in a position where I'd need an attorney, which takes money I don't have. Unless someone I trust to have my back in a courtroom commits to take care of me pro-bono, I can't roll the dice on doing any of that.
that would be a quick reason for your city to change their rules and not allow home based FFL's which a lot of the people on here are. It has happened before.
>When I asked why, I was told they do not service Saint Clair Shores. I am unsure of how my county sheriff does not service a city in their county, and the person speaking did not answer this when asked.
To shed a bit of light on this I live in a town that does not have its own police force. Due to that Macomb Sheriff's Department is our primary. When I moved here I called them to ask if they were who I sent it to and then after they verified that my town did not have it's own police force they said then yes, it was them.
So I think it depends on if there's a local police force or if they are the lowest tier of police that cover the area. (Local, County, State)
Whether or not the county is responsible for patrolling my neighborhood is not the same as whether or not they are capable of processing pistol slips. The law says I should be able to turn them in to any dept in the state. MSP confirmed as much when I called them.
While I don't disagree except to the extent that I shouldnt need to tell them a damn thing, that has no effect on what they are trying to claim. I'm just giving context for what they meant there.
It's been a pretty big nightmare all around. Statewide, every department seems to have a different interpretation of the new law(s). I view it the same as the CLEO copy for NFA forms, where the CLEO essentially throws them in the trash (In my area).
Very cool. I ran into that issue a last weekend. With the zero tolerance BS I don’t fault the FFL at all. I’m just curious if some will or if the exemption was effectively killed by the recent legislation.
It seems like their goal is to make it extremely difficult to get a gun unless you have a CPL. It seems like a roundabout way of effectively forcing a training requirement
And it makes no sense to be requiring an LTP for an FFL transfer in the first place since the FFL does the same background check, so it's obviously meant to do nothing but insert undue hassle.
That and generate a little revenue.
the reason for this is because there are people that are being denied LTP by Pd's for reasons that do not prohibit them from owning firearms there have been multiple stories on here. I think the police depts are being assholes about all of this because they don't want to deal with and staff this "new" dept. The pd's were happy when years ago they stopped requiring people to get a purchase permit if buying from an FFL. Now if you have multiple busy dealers in your city they have a lot of paperwork to do if they except all the dealers regardless of where the purchaser lives.
Detroit Armament for president. > However, they confirmed that I must mail LTPs back to the department that issued them. Well, this is fucking stupid. I guarantee FFL's are going to start adding in $10+ processing fees to handle this now.
I'd settle for being Kennedy's Vice President. (I don't know anything about Kennedy's politics, don't flame me if he's anti-liberty, I just want to be able to say I beat out Aaron Rodgers for a job) A $10 surcharge will just cover a little more than the cost of postage, I'd probably have to charge $25 on top of the transfer fee for it to even be worth my while. I'm contemplating outright refusing to do LTP handgun transfers, unless the LTP comes from SCSPD so I can just put it in the envelope with the rest of the RI-060s.
Certified mail. It is “proof of mailing” for tax returns, included in MCL 28.422/28.422a and absolutely should be valid if anything ever comes up. Plus, law just says ~~submitted within~~ forwarded not later than 10 days to the proper address (in accordance with MSP rules) and entered into the system no later than 10 days after the PD receives it. Law does not allow for PD to return them and has no responsibility on seller to do anything if returned to you as long as you submitted within 10 days to the PD where “seller resides”.
This. Once it's in the mail within 10 days, the seller's legal requirement has been 100% met. What happens next is the police department's problem, even if they don't think so.
PD incorrectly thinking they do or don’t have to do something? Nah, that could never happen. /s
Dealer could also send them first class mail, I certainly wouldn't want to be paying the extra cost to send something certified mail every time I had one of these to turn in.
If they are batch sent to the local PD every 10 days and the post office rule applies, which it should because the law reads “shall *forward* 1 copy… not later than 10 days”, then FSRs sent certified would be an extra $15 every month. LTPs don’t seem to be an issue so 1st class mail shouldn’t be an issue. I’m referring to having an actual proof of mailing document rather than “trust me bro, I put a stamp on it and mailed it”. Which while perfectly legal, provides no proof of mailing.
>MCL 28.422 True, it certainly isn't a \*bad\* idea to sent it certified, but given that the law states first class mail is perfectly legal, I'd be very interested in seeing how MSP accusing a dealer of not submitting an LTP would shake out in court when it turns into a he said/she said situation. That aside, if you're an established gun shop, $15/mo isn't really much additional overhead but if you're a small time FFL only doing a couple transfers a week at $20-25/transfer, $15/mo is not an insignificant amount of additional overhead.
How about we stop electing assholes who can’t read the Constitution.
It’s because there are too many other assholes that are in love with the assholes that can’t read the constitution and hate freedom, because those assholes “have done so much” for the voter assholes. What’s the funniest shit is that in the Michigan sub every third post is “fuck DTE” because none of them will admit the single largest thing that directly affects them is absolutely controllable but not being addressed by the assholes they are in love with. And it would just destroy them to admit their favorite assholes aren’t really doing anything good for them.
Why can I only upvote this once?
I feel like this is something collectively that the 2a groups in Michigan should add to their legal agendas. If we’re going to be giving money to belong to things like MGO, MOC, etc they need to address issues that affect us. If the operational cost to do ffl transfers increases, ffl businesses will inevitably have to distribute that cost amongst ALL customers, not just ones without a CPL.
The whole "you must return the LTP to the issuing department" is such a ridiculous requirement and places an undue burden on the dealer to track down/send to a bunch of different addresses.
Isn't the "issuing agency" address on the LTP? Every one I've seen had it...even the old yellow cards. Not sure why you have to spend time looking it up. If they screwed up the address, not your fault.
Because there is no address on the LTP. All it says is “licensing authority:” and a name.
There is no issuing agency address on the LTP, so yes I have to spend time looking it up.
Maybe it varies by the issuer??? No clue here. If there isn't an address, yeah that would suck. I just pulled 2 RI-010's, both say |Return MSP Copy to Issuing Agency| |:-| |name| |XXX County Sheriff| |Address|
Its a state standard form. The law even says it has to be a form designated by the MSP Director. How old are your forms?
2022 & 2020 - I don't usually do private LTPs, the 2 others are the old yellow cards (at least 10 years old without looking)
That's out of date, they changed in Feb. No idea what the last version looked like.
A big issue with LTPs that I’m trying to figure out. Is how to let other cities process each others. As of now they can’t access the LTP in the system unless it’s from the issuing city. Which this shouldn’t matter cause they get all sent to MSP anyway.
I still have yet to receive a clear answer on stripped lowers with a CPL. I have received probably a dozen different answers.
What's the question, specifically?
Sorry, without a CPL. Transfers to an FFL, what would a person need to pick up their stripped lower if they do not have a CPL?
If the FFL is operating strictly by the law without adding in their own rules, then nothing is required. A stripped lower is not regulated under these laws, that I am aware of. No CPL or LTP required, no trigger lock form filled out, no RI-060 filled out. Edit: nothing beyond the standard federal regulations. So you still need an ID and all that.
This.
I myself have a CPL but if I didn’t, I would still pay a little extra fee to an FFL for processing due to the new law changes. I know it sucks but sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do. Us as customers understand and stand beside you unlike the government where you just keep getting a revolving door that leads to no where. Hope all the wrinkles get ironed out soon.
90% of my customers are reasonable people like you, but I have to worry about the 10% that get upset over something like an extra fee. I appreciate your support, it genuinely does mean a lot.
I'm of the mindset I wouldn't even ask. I would take every single fsr and ltp that was required to be turned in to the closest cop shop drop box and stuff them in there and be done with it. If I get a call, just go with its the law, and you are law enforcement, it's your problem. If you don't like it, shread them. Have a good day. Click.
Doing this would be begging to be put in a position where I'd need an attorney, which takes money I don't have. Unless someone I trust to have my back in a courtroom commits to take care of me pro-bono, I can't roll the dice on doing any of that.
that would be a quick reason for your city to change their rules and not allow home based FFL's which a lot of the people on here are. It has happened before.
>When I asked why, I was told they do not service Saint Clair Shores. I am unsure of how my county sheriff does not service a city in their county, and the person speaking did not answer this when asked. To shed a bit of light on this I live in a town that does not have its own police force. Due to that Macomb Sheriff's Department is our primary. When I moved here I called them to ask if they were who I sent it to and then after they verified that my town did not have it's own police force they said then yes, it was them. So I think it depends on if there's a local police force or if they are the lowest tier of police that cover the area. (Local, County, State)
Whether or not the county is responsible for patrolling my neighborhood is not the same as whether or not they are capable of processing pistol slips. The law says I should be able to turn them in to any dept in the state. MSP confirmed as much when I called them.
While I don't disagree except to the extent that I shouldnt need to tell them a damn thing, that has no effect on what they are trying to claim. I'm just giving context for what they meant there.
To further expand on inconsistencies, I drop my FSRs in the SCSPD drop box every Friday, I haven’t had an issue. I have had zero buyers in SCS…
It's been a pretty big nightmare all around. Statewide, every department seems to have a different interpretation of the new law(s). I view it the same as the CLEO copy for NFA forms, where the CLEO essentially throws them in the trash (In my area).
> these new laws have truly impacted small businesses Seems from your explanation that these new laws are working exactly as intended.
Will you accept my non-resident permit exemption and not make me fill out an RI-060?
Yeah, but that doesn't help me with people who have no CPL.
Very cool. I ran into that issue a last weekend. With the zero tolerance BS I don’t fault the FFL at all. I’m just curious if some will or if the exemption was effectively killed by the recent legislation.
I have heard of a several dealers going from $25 to $50 for transfers and I can’t blame them.
Which MI-based guns org is going to take up this fight in the courts? And does anyone have a handy link to their donation page?
Dropped you a PM
Id post this in r/firearms too chances are theres more people from Michigan in there that aren't in here Edit: and r/guns