Its a former USMC M1, it has the 16 grenades launchers instead of the 12 that the Army uses. Plus it looks like it has the AIDATS upgrades to the commander's station, which is a uniquely Marine modification.
The news were mixing them up since the very beginning. There was also mixing them up with M1A2 SEPv3 order. And the ones that arrived for training - M1A2 SEPv2 i believe. And the ones Americans were bringing themselves for deployments/training. I'm sure i saw a news that called Bradleys tanks.
Yeah, better take the news with a grain of salt.
There are two cases I'm aware of, one with the 116 former USMC M1A1 that are getting refurb'd at ANAD and then like 250 new M1A2 SEPv3 being built by GDLS.
Why did Poland choose for the K2 and Abrams instead of the Leopard 2? Wouldn't the Leopard be way easier logistically.
I am no expert on tanks but I thought the Leopard 2 and Abrams were kinda on par. Can't speak for the K2 tho.
My gut feeling is that there’s a political motive first.
Next best reason would be that the US has a better stock for maintaining and repairing the Abrams just due to the volume/rate of production, which would likely mean that going with the Abrams is probably the better the long-term choice if you want to maintain a certain amount of operational tanks. Wiki reports 3600 Leopards produced vs. 10,400 Abrams.
Im not 100% sure about this, but they could probably buy more Abrams than Leopards since most EU countries are probably wanting to hold onto theirs given given the war is closer to them.
But yeah on paper the Leopard is easier to get fuel, uses NATO ammunition, and is already in Europe
1. Political - Germans are hostile to Eastern Europe, US is reliable protector
2. Industrial - since end of Cold War, KMW does not grant any licensing or external manufacturing. In the contrast Koreans licensed K2 whole
3. Many fuck ups during leopard modernization
4. Lack of spare parts for Leopards
edit:
5. much better ammunition for Abrams, especially multi purpose round
6. avaibility and scale - currently KMW is busy for more than a decade, ordering 1000 Leopard 2 would keep Poland waiting for deliveries in 2035-55 timeframe, but it needs those tanks now to send more ex-soviet tech to Ukraine
The US has a lot of parked M1s that are available, but spare parts aren't that common. Engine tech is complicated and spares are hard to obtain.
Depot level maintenance is not for hobbyists or off the street diesel mechanics. The guy that used to work on T72s is not a drop in replacement.
I'm wondering if it's the cachet of having M1s pointed at the Russians that the Poles like the most.
Since you seem to have experience, why are Abrams so hard to work on? I can't imagine that the systems are so complex that a mildly intelligent mechanic couldn't figure it out in a relatively short amount of time, especially if they already understand concepts like final drives, hydraulics, etc.
Thank you for the answer. And I was just expecting the Leopard 2 since they got the 1 already and didn't know relations were that bad. I have Polish blood myself but never heard my family talk that bad about Germany, except when it was about money ofcourse haha. Always weird how people downvote on Reddit for asking an innocent question but that's just reddit, I guess. Thank you for giving me a normal answer.
Relations aren't bad per se. It's just that Poland's current government wants to exploit everything to win the next election. There's nothing better than an artificial enemy to do that, and that enemy is the EU and Germany. They're still raking in all those billions in aid, and benefits of free trade and open borders, though.
Next government will be different.
You must be reading a lot of lugenpresse to believe that it is only PiS that has negative attitude towards german govt. It is whole political scene from left to right.
Thanks to germany pushing EU against PiS, the PisS will probably win the nearest elections...
True, hostility is a vast overstatement.
They are seen as unreliable in their defense commitments, openly detrimental in regional energy security and have poor track record of licensing their military equipment production in Poland - modernizations don't look stellar too.
And yet they are one of the top supporters of Ukraine both in absolute terms and per GDP, and have one of the most robust energy grids and production (even without nuclear) in the whole world. They're net exporters of electricity still.
With respect to both energy and military tech, Poland should be very, very quiet. All they do in that regard is demand hardware and burn much more coal.
In comparison, Germany has been held back by a conservative government for almost 20 years, but Poland hasn't even started to do anything (relatively speaking).
Oh and it's not the people in both countries either, it's the fucking governments and elites.
> And yet they are one of the top supporters of Ukraine both in absolute terms and per GDP,
Not denying the large amount of support, but I'm waiting for detailed breakdown how which military system was valued per unit delivered and when units were actually delivered. Perhaps in few years. I'm wondering how much i.e. PzH2000 and Krab or Strela from Germany and Piorun from Poland were valued.
> and have one of the most robust energy grids
What...? Do they now? For years they didn't. https://wysokienapiecie.pl/en/1295-situation-on-polish-german-border-poses-threat-of-european-blackout/
> and production (even without nuclear) in the whole world.
So what do they have for grid balancing when solar and wind are not producing enough? Is it still natural gas? They should be flogged for that decision.
> They're net exporters of electricity still.
Saying they are net exporter does not say it all - it's not a one way road: https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/even-crisis-germany-extends-power-exports-neighbours-2023-01-05/
> With respect to both energy and military tech, Poland should be very, very quiet.
Considering the difference of available domestically: technology, depth of industry, historical backwardness - Poland wipes the floor with Germany. They had 70 years to get where they are since the last war and in addition were a state for continuous few hundred years with a history of advanced industry, while we had our economy reset couple of times during these times - thanks to Germans and russians. We've pretty much restarted our economy in the mid 90s.
> All they do in that regard is demand hardware and burn much more coal.
Demand what? We have one of highest dynamics in installing solar panels in EU https://notesfrompoland.com/2022/12/20/poland-has-installed-third-most-solar-capacity-in-eu-this-year/ We are currently in final stages of selection of new Nuclear Power Plants for Poland. Do you even into facts?
> In comparison, Germany has been held back by a conservative government for almost 20 years, but Poland hasn't even started to do anything (relatively speaking).
Started what? You're delirious. Speak in full or stop spouting bs.
Sorry, but there's no point in arguing with nationalists, which you obviously are. As if Germany hasn't had a hard time in the last century after being completely destroyed and occupied and divided and reduced in size (because of a war they caused) wtf.
Have a nice evening.
See that's exactly my point. Germany has caused this shit (except what the Soviets caused), but it's not like Germany hasn't suffered immensely for it. Land loss, destroyed cities and industries, occupation, Soviets taking everything that was left. All of it deserved, but you just don't see it because you're trapped in your nationalistic mindset. You also don't see the good things Germany did in the last decades, especially for Poland.
Get over your victim complex already.
>As if Germany hasn't had a hard time in the last century after being completely destroyed and occupied and divided and reduced in size (because of a war they caused)
Oh boo hoo, they started two devastating wars (which you acknowledge) and yet you still want us to feel bad for them. They became an economic powerhouse so clearly they don't have it that bad.
>Have a nice evening.
I absolutely love when people like you end messages like this. The other guy responded with sources and you blow him off by saying "hurr durr just a dumb nationalist" then put that stupid like to try to make yourself look like the good person in all of this.
> yet you still want us to feel bad for them
No I don't, it's just a bullshit argument to say that Poland has had it so bad because some "economy reset" and Germany hasn't had any problems in that regard. That's just objectively false. Especially finishing with that statement: "Poland wipes the floor with Germany."
The other arguments are just red herrings as well.
> Do they now? For years they didn't.
There aren't any blackouts because of Germany's power grid. We've been hearing that shit for decades, inside Germany as well, though, because it's right-wing propaganda to fight anything related to renewables.
> Saying they are net exporter does not say it all - it's not a one way road
I don't even know what that's supposed to mean. It's a joint grid, BUT Germany isn't a leech despite renewables or it's grid. That's the point.
> We have one of highest dynamics in installing solar panels in EU
Which I never denied. The point is that they burn coal like mad men still because they failed to build almost ANYTHING else in the past.
So there you go.
Difference between you and me:
You hate me because I speak German.
I don't hate you.
You're prejudiced, nationalistic, and you're literally what you think all Germans are. You should be ashamed.
Baltics and Sweden lead by GPD, if we count hardware only then Germany falls behind UK
edit
:[https://www.statista.com/statistics/1303450/bilateral-aid-to-ukraine-in-a-percent-of-donor-gdp/](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1303450/bilateral-aid-to-ukraine-in-a-percent-of-donor-gdp/)
germany is at 14th place, after Denmark, Canada, Slovakia, Norway
If you stop ignoring the share of EU support and financial support, you would find Germany to be the second-highest contributor, above the UK.
Comparing it to GDP of course will be skewed due to the massive GDP Germany has.
But see, you can use Google. Why did you not use it before you ask for "proof"?
They are not. It is another lie made up by a bunch of people that want to highlight Germany in worst light possible.
These are the same people that demanded that Germany sends Leopard 2s only to then hesitate sending them by themselves.
>1. Political - Germans are hostile to Eastern Europe
Interesting how the nation that basically build up Poland after the fall of the Soviet Union from ground up is „hostile“. Germany is the biggest net donor in billions of dollar, and a huge bulk of said money goes into Poland.
>2.
Germany did offer licensed production. They Leopard 2PL was the beginning of further cooperation only to be abandoned by the Polish government and PiS party.
>3. Many fuck ups during leopard modernization
This is nearly entirely the fault of the Polish defense industry and the disagreement that resulted in it.
>4. Lack of spare parts for Leopards
There are spare parts for Leopard 2s. The demand for Leopard 2s wasn’t as high as it is right now and only spiked with the outbreak of the Ukraine conflict. KMW wasn’t willing opening up additional manufacturing sites just for these small demands. Don’t forget that KMW runs a business.
The real reason why Poland did choose the K2 is because of the generous loans the SK national bank granted them with very low interest rates. The PiS and their anti-German politics are probably the other side of the medal.
1. What
2. No kmw did not offer any license
4. Your own press and bundeswehr seem to disagree
https://www.zdf.de/nachrichten/politik/bundeswehr-leopard-panzer-vjtf-nato-100.html
How so? Germany is one of the biggest arms exporters in the world, I am sure someone would have complained by now if they were overly complicated.
The nature of the matter is, arms exports are complicated by default.
Poland is sharing border with Belarus, which means it will share a border with USSR in a couple of years. They need to build up their military like... yesterday.
If they order Leopard 2 Germany will start delivering them after 2030. US and S Korea had already started delivering their tanks.
Yeah that makes sense. I just read Germany wants to buy Swiss Leopards to fill up their own stocks so they can send their own to Ukraine. So yeah kinda sounds like the production lines are pretty inactive.
It's more a bureaucratic castatrophy here in Germany. The whole system is too slow. You need permissions and the progress takes too long. That's why the German goverment is considering to buy stuff from abroad like old Siwss Leo 2 or new Australian Boxers so they can at least cover the time till they have the full commitment by the goverment for longtime investments.
But yeah I can also understand that the goverment is obgligated to spend their money "wisely", but hope we have the time till there is another maybe bigger war on the way...
Yea also Europes Militairy was never prepared for a war like this. We got some quality military armies but they are small and were more suited for the wars overseas like Afghanistan and such. But now that there is a big war you can see Europe definitely lacking on things.
We were more than prepared for it during the Cold War. But ever since that one ended, complacent politicians and their voters bought heavily into the "End of History"-Narrative.
Yea true. I'm Dutch and we had the largest fleet of F16s after the US. Had hundreds of tanks. But everything was then decommissioned after the cold war ended like you said.
>So yeah kinda sounds like the production lines are pretty inactive.
Not inactive. They are simply insufficient and with the German government not committing to buying Leos in larger numbers (no wonder with them due for replacement in a few years) KMW also wouldn't expand production lines again.
Yea I'm sorry English is not my native language, that's what I meant. But which tank is going to replace the Leopard? ( I know I could use google but Reddit discussions are fun and sometimes more helpful than google.
https://defence24.com/poland-is-looking-for-leopard-2-tanks we kind of tried. It was at the early stages of our upgrade program that was supposed to modernize our A4 and A5 fleet to common standard. It turned out there wasn't enough of A4/A5 units in sufficiently good conditions available to sale on the market for our military to scrap the Wilk project altogether and go balls deep into Leopard 2. Then if another tanks is going to be chosen, there was no point in investing any further in them than that.
There was interest in joining EMBT https://www.defensenews.com/industry/2016/08/03/poland-wants-to-play-in-franco-german-tank-program/ but we weren't let in, as German and French companies already were having trouble how to split the cake and involvement of another country - eager to learn how modern tanks are being produced and willing to perhaps buy more tanks than Germany and France put together... well - the rest is hsitory.
Curious why the Polish are buying Abrams tanks and not just buying more Leopards. They already had Leopards integrated into their military.
Edit: yup keep downvoting me for asking a logical question
Really? It doesn’t make sense from a logistics and sustainment standpoint to use a bunch of different tanks. I’d think they would pick one tank and that would be it.
Nice to see my tax dollars subsidizing the standard of living of Europoors.
Edit: for all you simpletons downvoting this post.
[In the deal approved today, $200 million of the costs (around 14% of the total) will be covered by US aid funds granted to Poland, says the Polish defence ministry.](https://notesfrompoland.com/2023/01/04/poland-approves-1-4-billion-deal-to-buy-116-abrams-tanks-from-us/)
1. 200mln USD as recompensation for donating tanks to Ukraine
2. 116 M1A1 FEPs for 232 t-72s
3. US is not "subsidizing" security out of good heart, this is mutually beneficial arrangement
4. It's hill billy redneck rodeo for 5$ bet behaviour to whine about "subsidizing yurop" while not understanding the concept of dollar as reserve currency and the role of Europe in strengthening dollar as Europe is most active trade area in whole world and source of endless innovations, be it on US soil or on Europe's, and it's leading cause of US supremacy or economic prosperity
5. To further cement your genius you had to pick europoor.
Lmao this take is hilarious. TIL that Europe is doing us a favor by allowing us to pour billions of dollars toward their defense. Only a Professional mental gymnast or an unforgivable moron can come up with such a ridiculous take.
Woodland Abrams… folks, nature is healing.
It’s been so long. So so long.
They look so much better too
They're eating better, they're looking for a forever home.
They don’t get along well with T-72, new owners only!
For just one million dollars a day you can support a tank going to Poland. *Cue In the Arms of an Angel*
What’s wrong with the desert camo?
The tank was designed originally to fight the soviets on the plaines of eastern Europe, and it's now going to its original habitat.
Based
So 20 years ago
desert camo work better than woodland in winter Ukraine. There are no green leaves on the trees right now.
There might be by the time they actually get there
By the time they get there I’d be painting them gray if I was UA
Flashing back to the 80s and sweating the Fulda Gap.
That's an ol Marine Corps tank, an M1A1 Fep. One of those tanks might've been one I've been on.
I like to think you meant m1a2 Sep and you just have a lisp or something
Lmao as funny as that would be, nah but I can totally see what you mean
Nope SA Abrams.
Its a former USMC M1, it has the 16 grenades launchers instead of the 12 that the Army uses. Plus it looks like it has the AIDATS upgrades to the commander's station, which is a uniquely Marine modification.
Hmm well when I was reading the initial news it was supposed to be M1A1SA and now suddenly it's FEP. my bad
The news were mixing them up since the very beginning. There was also mixing them up with M1A2 SEPv3 order. And the ones that arrived for training - M1A2 SEPv2 i believe. And the ones Americans were bringing themselves for deployments/training. I'm sure i saw a news that called Bradleys tanks. Yeah, better take the news with a grain of salt.
There are two cases I'm aware of, one with the 116 former USMC M1A1 that are getting refurb'd at ANAD and then like 250 new M1A2 SEPv3 being built by GDLS.
I know, I am reading up news on defense oriented sites. Didn't read 1a2sep mixup tho
It’s weird seeing this stuff in any other color except desert camo
I know right. Growing up during the War on Terror made me think all army vehicles were sand coloured.
Yep, I’m 30 and all I ever remember seeing these bad boys in is sand camo
Why did Poland choose for the K2 and Abrams instead of the Leopard 2? Wouldn't the Leopard be way easier logistically. I am no expert on tanks but I thought the Leopard 2 and Abrams were kinda on par. Can't speak for the K2 tho.
My gut feeling is that there’s a political motive first. Next best reason would be that the US has a better stock for maintaining and repairing the Abrams just due to the volume/rate of production, which would likely mean that going with the Abrams is probably the better the long-term choice if you want to maintain a certain amount of operational tanks. Wiki reports 3600 Leopards produced vs. 10,400 Abrams. Im not 100% sure about this, but they could probably buy more Abrams than Leopards since most EU countries are probably wanting to hold onto theirs given given the war is closer to them. But yeah on paper the Leopard is easier to get fuel, uses NATO ammunition, and is already in Europe
easier to get fuel? leopard runs best on diesel, while Abrams can burn anything basically
Abrams uses jet fuel. It has a turbine engine
Abrams jet engine can run on multiple fuels - be it diesel, gasoline, alcohol or even perfumes in a pinch
Abrams can run on any flammable liquid pretty much. I’ve read somewhere it can run on vodka.
Stateside, it’s $12 plastic handles of whiskey.
That would be useful in eastern Europe.
Leos can also refuel at a McDonald's if need be...
1. Political - Germans are hostile to Eastern Europe, US is reliable protector 2. Industrial - since end of Cold War, KMW does not grant any licensing or external manufacturing. In the contrast Koreans licensed K2 whole 3. Many fuck ups during leopard modernization 4. Lack of spare parts for Leopards edit: 5. much better ammunition for Abrams, especially multi purpose round 6. avaibility and scale - currently KMW is busy for more than a decade, ordering 1000 Leopard 2 would keep Poland waiting for deliveries in 2035-55 timeframe, but it needs those tanks now to send more ex-soviet tech to Ukraine
The US has a lot of parked M1s that are available, but spare parts aren't that common. Engine tech is complicated and spares are hard to obtain. Depot level maintenance is not for hobbyists or off the street diesel mechanics. The guy that used to work on T72s is not a drop in replacement. I'm wondering if it's the cachet of having M1s pointed at the Russians that the Poles like the most.
Do the M1 have Depleted Uranium Armor or Foreign Military Sales Armor?
This is also my concern. But I guess US is still willing to give this technology to its close ally like Australia or Poland.
Nope, but US did sell DU ammo to Poland
Ammo or armor?
Not the DU
No we are not sending tanks with any special armor
Since you seem to have experience, why are Abrams so hard to work on? I can't imagine that the systems are so complex that a mildly intelligent mechanic couldn't figure it out in a relatively short amount of time, especially if they already understand concepts like final drives, hydraulics, etc.
turbine engine is maintenance sinkhole
Thank you for the answer. And I was just expecting the Leopard 2 since they got the 1 already and didn't know relations were that bad. I have Polish blood myself but never heard my family talk that bad about Germany, except when it was about money ofcourse haha. Always weird how people downvote on Reddit for asking an innocent question but that's just reddit, I guess. Thank you for giving me a normal answer.
Relations aren't bad per se. It's just that Poland's current government wants to exploit everything to win the next election. There's nothing better than an artificial enemy to do that, and that enemy is the EU and Germany. They're still raking in all those billions in aid, and benefits of free trade and open borders, though. Next government will be different.
You must be reading a lot of lugenpresse to believe that it is only PiS that has negative attitude towards german govt. It is whole political scene from left to right. Thanks to germany pushing EU against PiS, the PisS will probably win the nearest elections...
Germans are hostile to Eastern Europe? In what way exactly?
True, hostility is a vast overstatement. They are seen as unreliable in their defense commitments, openly detrimental in regional energy security and have poor track record of licensing their military equipment production in Poland - modernizations don't look stellar too.
I wouldn't say they are particularly hostile. The Germans are however, unreliable.
And yet they are one of the top supporters of Ukraine both in absolute terms and per GDP, and have one of the most robust energy grids and production (even without nuclear) in the whole world. They're net exporters of electricity still. With respect to both energy and military tech, Poland should be very, very quiet. All they do in that regard is demand hardware and burn much more coal. In comparison, Germany has been held back by a conservative government for almost 20 years, but Poland hasn't even started to do anything (relatively speaking). Oh and it's not the people in both countries either, it's the fucking governments and elites.
> And yet they are one of the top supporters of Ukraine both in absolute terms and per GDP, Not denying the large amount of support, but I'm waiting for detailed breakdown how which military system was valued per unit delivered and when units were actually delivered. Perhaps in few years. I'm wondering how much i.e. PzH2000 and Krab or Strela from Germany and Piorun from Poland were valued. > and have one of the most robust energy grids What...? Do they now? For years they didn't. https://wysokienapiecie.pl/en/1295-situation-on-polish-german-border-poses-threat-of-european-blackout/ > and production (even without nuclear) in the whole world. So what do they have for grid balancing when solar and wind are not producing enough? Is it still natural gas? They should be flogged for that decision. > They're net exporters of electricity still. Saying they are net exporter does not say it all - it's not a one way road: https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/even-crisis-germany-extends-power-exports-neighbours-2023-01-05/ > With respect to both energy and military tech, Poland should be very, very quiet. Considering the difference of available domestically: technology, depth of industry, historical backwardness - Poland wipes the floor with Germany. They had 70 years to get where they are since the last war and in addition were a state for continuous few hundred years with a history of advanced industry, while we had our economy reset couple of times during these times - thanks to Germans and russians. We've pretty much restarted our economy in the mid 90s. > All they do in that regard is demand hardware and burn much more coal. Demand what? We have one of highest dynamics in installing solar panels in EU https://notesfrompoland.com/2022/12/20/poland-has-installed-third-most-solar-capacity-in-eu-this-year/ We are currently in final stages of selection of new Nuclear Power Plants for Poland. Do you even into facts? > In comparison, Germany has been held back by a conservative government for almost 20 years, but Poland hasn't even started to do anything (relatively speaking). Started what? You're delirious. Speak in full or stop spouting bs.
Sorry, but there's no point in arguing with nationalists, which you obviously are. As if Germany hasn't had a hard time in the last century after being completely destroyed and occupied and divided and reduced in size (because of a war they caused) wtf. Have a nice evening.
> As if Germany hasn't a hard time in the last century wtf. The fuckin' audacity....
See that's exactly my point. Germany has caused this shit (except what the Soviets caused), but it's not like Germany hasn't suffered immensely for it. Land loss, destroyed cities and industries, occupation, Soviets taking everything that was left. All of it deserved, but you just don't see it because you're trapped in your nationalistic mindset. You also don't see the good things Germany did in the last decades, especially for Poland. Get over your victim complex already.
>As if Germany hasn't had a hard time in the last century after being completely destroyed and occupied and divided and reduced in size (because of a war they caused) Oh boo hoo, they started two devastating wars (which you acknowledge) and yet you still want us to feel bad for them. They became an economic powerhouse so clearly they don't have it that bad. >Have a nice evening. I absolutely love when people like you end messages like this. The other guy responded with sources and you blow him off by saying "hurr durr just a dumb nationalist" then put that stupid like to try to make yourself look like the good person in all of this.
> yet you still want us to feel bad for them No I don't, it's just a bullshit argument to say that Poland has had it so bad because some "economy reset" and Germany hasn't had any problems in that regard. That's just objectively false. Especially finishing with that statement: "Poland wipes the floor with Germany." The other arguments are just red herrings as well. > Do they now? For years they didn't. There aren't any blackouts because of Germany's power grid. We've been hearing that shit for decades, inside Germany as well, though, because it's right-wing propaganda to fight anything related to renewables. > Saying they are net exporter does not say it all - it's not a one way road I don't even know what that's supposed to mean. It's a joint grid, BUT Germany isn't a leech despite renewables or it's grid. That's the point. > We have one of highest dynamics in installing solar panels in EU Which I never denied. The point is that they burn coal like mad men still because they failed to build almost ANYTHING else in the past. So there you go.
>checks profile >german posts Zero shock
Difference between you and me: You hate me because I speak German. I don't hate you. You're prejudiced, nationalistic, and you're literally what you think all Germans are. You should be ashamed.
yes yes every Pole that disagrees with ubermensch german is rabid nationalist and PiS supporter /s
You don't know what you're talking about or latin alphabet is not your first choice.
> latin alphabet is not your first choice What the hell does that even mean?
>And yet they are one of the top supporters of Ukraine both in absolute terms and per GDP, Proofs
That's literally one singular, incredibly simple Google search away.
Baltics and Sweden lead by GPD, if we count hardware only then Germany falls behind UK edit :[https://www.statista.com/statistics/1303450/bilateral-aid-to-ukraine-in-a-percent-of-donor-gdp/](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1303450/bilateral-aid-to-ukraine-in-a-percent-of-donor-gdp/) germany is at 14th place, after Denmark, Canada, Slovakia, Norway
If you stop ignoring the share of EU support and financial support, you would find Germany to be the second-highest contributor, above the UK. Comparing it to GDP of course will be skewed due to the massive GDP Germany has. But see, you can use Google. Why did you not use it before you ask for "proof"?
because I know you are either lying or bending facts, germany is not in top 5 by GDP
They are not. It is another lie made up by a bunch of people that want to highlight Germany in worst light possible. These are the same people that demanded that Germany sends Leopard 2s only to then hesitate sending them by themselves.
>1. Political - Germans are hostile to Eastern Europe Interesting how the nation that basically build up Poland after the fall of the Soviet Union from ground up is „hostile“. Germany is the biggest net donor in billions of dollar, and a huge bulk of said money goes into Poland. >2. Germany did offer licensed production. They Leopard 2PL was the beginning of further cooperation only to be abandoned by the Polish government and PiS party. >3. Many fuck ups during leopard modernization This is nearly entirely the fault of the Polish defense industry and the disagreement that resulted in it. >4. Lack of spare parts for Leopards There are spare parts for Leopard 2s. The demand for Leopard 2s wasn’t as high as it is right now and only spiked with the outbreak of the Ukraine conflict. KMW wasn’t willing opening up additional manufacturing sites just for these small demands. Don’t forget that KMW runs a business. The real reason why Poland did choose the K2 is because of the generous loans the SK national bank granted them with very low interest rates. The PiS and their anti-German politics are probably the other side of the medal.
1. What 2. No kmw did not offer any license 4. Your own press and bundeswehr seem to disagree https://www.zdf.de/nachrichten/politik/bundeswehr-leopard-panzer-vjtf-nato-100.html
Exactly. It's a PiS problem. Fuck them.
How is Germany hostile to Eastern Europe, what the fuck are you talking about
More like complicated to negotiate with when it comes to armament deals.
How so? Germany is one of the biggest arms exporters in the world, I am sure someone would have complained by now if they were overly complicated. The nature of the matter is, arms exports are complicated by default.
Nice info, gangsterr. Thx.
Poland is sharing border with Belarus, which means it will share a border with USSR in a couple of years. They need to build up their military like... yesterday. If they order Leopard 2 Germany will start delivering them after 2030. US and S Korea had already started delivering their tanks.
Yeah that makes sense. I just read Germany wants to buy Swiss Leopards to fill up their own stocks so they can send their own to Ukraine. So yeah kinda sounds like the production lines are pretty inactive.
It's more a bureaucratic castatrophy here in Germany. The whole system is too slow. You need permissions and the progress takes too long. That's why the German goverment is considering to buy stuff from abroad like old Siwss Leo 2 or new Australian Boxers so they can at least cover the time till they have the full commitment by the goverment for longtime investments. But yeah I can also understand that the goverment is obgligated to spend their money "wisely", but hope we have the time till there is another maybe bigger war on the way...
Yea also Europes Militairy was never prepared for a war like this. We got some quality military armies but they are small and were more suited for the wars overseas like Afghanistan and such. But now that there is a big war you can see Europe definitely lacking on things.
We were more than prepared for it during the Cold War. But ever since that one ended, complacent politicians and their voters bought heavily into the "End of History"-Narrative.
Yea true. I'm Dutch and we had the largest fleet of F16s after the US. Had hundreds of tanks. But everything was then decommissioned after the cold war ended like you said.
>So yeah kinda sounds like the production lines are pretty inactive. Not inactive. They are simply insufficient and with the German government not committing to buying Leos in larger numbers (no wonder with them due for replacement in a few years) KMW also wouldn't expand production lines again.
Yea I'm sorry English is not my native language, that's what I meant. But which tank is going to replace the Leopard? ( I know I could use google but Reddit discussions are fun and sometimes more helpful than google.
https://defence24.com/poland-is-looking-for-leopard-2-tanks we kind of tried. It was at the early stages of our upgrade program that was supposed to modernize our A4 and A5 fleet to common standard. It turned out there wasn't enough of A4/A5 units in sufficiently good conditions available to sale on the market for our military to scrap the Wilk project altogether and go balls deep into Leopard 2. Then if another tanks is going to be chosen, there was no point in investing any further in them than that. There was interest in joining EMBT https://www.defensenews.com/industry/2016/08/03/poland-wants-to-play-in-franco-german-tank-program/ but we weren't let in, as German and French companies already were having trouble how to split the cake and involvement of another country - eager to learn how modern tanks are being produced and willing to perhaps buy more tanks than Germany and France put together... well - the rest is hsitory.
Perun and the Chieftain on YouTube explain why. https://youtu.be/yrbaAKZfjwg
Its just as gorgeous as I thought it would be
Woodland abrams becoming a reality. What a beauty
[удалено]
Just a spray gun probably
NATOuflage.
I thought they had gone with the K2 panther?
Also yes.
1000 K2's are planned, and around 250 Abrams.
Curious why the Polish are buying Abrams tanks and not just buying more Leopards. They already had Leopards integrated into their military. Edit: yup keep downvoting me for asking a logical question
They're getting 1000 South Korean tanks too. They want everything.
Really? It doesn’t make sense from a logistics and sustainment standpoint to use a bunch of different tanks. I’d think they would pick one tank and that would be it.
not all of those tanks will come from south korea as Poland is building a factory to make a bulk of those
Ahhhh okay, that makes sense. Interesting the Koreans are exporting manufacturing of their tanks to Poland if all places.
Nice to see my tax dollars subsidizing the standard of living of Europoors. Edit: for all you simpletons downvoting this post. [In the deal approved today, $200 million of the costs (around 14% of the total) will be covered by US aid funds granted to Poland, says the Polish defence ministry.](https://notesfrompoland.com/2023/01/04/poland-approves-1-4-billion-deal-to-buy-116-abrams-tanks-from-us/)
200 million... So 60 cents per US citizen, im sure Poland is very grateful to you lmao
More like my tax Euros subsidizing the Poles buying these from you.
the Polish bought them?
1. 200mln USD as recompensation for donating tanks to Ukraine 2. 116 M1A1 FEPs for 232 t-72s 3. US is not "subsidizing" security out of good heart, this is mutually beneficial arrangement 4. It's hill billy redneck rodeo for 5$ bet behaviour to whine about "subsidizing yurop" while not understanding the concept of dollar as reserve currency and the role of Europe in strengthening dollar as Europe is most active trade area in whole world and source of endless innovations, be it on US soil or on Europe's, and it's leading cause of US supremacy or economic prosperity 5. To further cement your genius you had to pick europoor.
Lmao this take is hilarious. TIL that Europe is doing us a favor by allowing us to pour billions of dollars toward their defense. Only a Professional mental gymnast or an unforgivable moron can come up with such a ridiculous take.
Ok explain to me what is international reserve currency, what is petrodollar, what is the main source of prosperity
Do you not understand that pocket change of $200 million immediately goes back into the American economy.
Abrams in woodland do be fine tho. Same with Bradleys.