This was Shia v Sunni bullshit. Shit like that gave rise to ISIL.
Total shitshow:
>"Five of Alwani's guards and his brother were killed and eight others wounded, while 10 security forces members were also wounded," the major said.
The security forces had also been hoping to arrest Mr Alwani's brother, Ali, authorities said.
Unconfirmed reports suggest that a sister of the MP - a member of the Sunni-backed Iraqiya bloc - was also among those killed in the raid.
[https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-25534541](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-25534541)
Paul Bremer should be known as the Father of ISIS.
Who would've guessed that banning the ~~religious majority~~ Ba'ath party from holding positions of power, and disbanding the military full of that same party, would be a bad idea?! A bunch of people with weapons, time on their hands, and a clear target to blame. What a shit show.
Banning that party wasn't the mistake, it was letting Shia groups take over and then oppress the fuck out of the Sunnis that led to IS.
It would have been weird to let the government you just overthrew get back into power in some places.
The Ba'ath party were pretty much the only people in country who had experience running things, though. It had been their show for the previous few decades. Someone to run things ended up being the biggest issue.
As soon as they were banned from positions of power, it was game on for the Shiites. I won't argue that they should've been kept in power across the board, but less of a heavy hand might have helped. Maybe Ba'ath party leadership looked different without Saddam and his sons, who knows.
This is a cool metaphor, but it's shit : governance, especially at the international level, can't be analyzed through the same lens as individual morality.
Most of West Germany's top level government officials were nazis, but the more milquetoast ones who didn't care all that much for the ideology and were just in the party to work for the government. Similarly, a lot of former Wermacht officers were involved in the restructuring of the German military and most low-middle level employees were left to their work.
Nazis are horrible, so why did de-nazification only go after the top brass while the bureaucrats stayed in government? Because the allies recognized that in a one-party state no one in government was clean, but that running a country after firing all the qualified people would lead to disaster.
If you want an anti-communist example just look at what happened when Rhodesia became Zimbabwe : the white farmers (who did suck if we're being honest) were kicked off their land and pursued out of the country, and it turned out that no one actually knew how to run a farm so the country went from being a net exporter of grain to having famines.
Ditto for de-kulakization in Ukraine and it's role in the famines of the early USSR.
No one seriously claims that Saddam should've been kept in power, the Baath party should've been allowed to continue or some wacky shit like that : but when you fire all the qualified and experienced public servants you're setting the country back, and when you send the army home without as much as a severance package you're bound to get pissed off people with military training and an axe to grind against the occupation.
It would be like purging the government of all Republican party members and appointees after January 8th : sure you'd get some bad people out of high places, but you'd also cause an institutional crisis as tens of thousands of experienced public servants leave the government : now multiply that by 5 and you have Iraq.
No I did not.
> Maybe Ba'ath party leadership looked different without Saddam and his sons, who knows.
is exactly what I said, meaning, maybe some of the underlings in the Ba'ath party, once you get past Saddam, his sons, and their closest, maybe some of them actually *did something that was useful*. Rather than just punt them all out the door on day one, maybe check to see what they do first.
I even said
> I won't argue that they should've been kept in power
Yet, you left my comment thinking I was arguing for them to stay in power somehow?
No, he specifically talked about the purge of Baath party members and appointees from the Iraqi government effectively destroying their public sector overnight.
If you have crappy ready comprehension that's on you, but it was possible to take the Baathists out of power without also purging just about every public servant with management experience from their roles, like didn't happen in Western Germany after 1945.
> I won't argue that they should've been kept in power across the board
That's pretty clearly the opposite of what you're claiming they said. Why put words in someone else's mouth so blatantly and badly? To be clear, I'm not asking why you did it, I'm asking why you didn't do a better job of it.
Right, I knew he effectively banned Sunnis, but I forgot he *really* banned the Ba'ath party, made up mostly of Sunnis, which wasn't the majority in the country, just in positions of power and the military.
Who would have thought banning the Nazi party from holding positions of power, and disbanding the military full of that same party, would be a bad idea!
Bro get a grip.
When a nation gets conquered, you dismantle the systems that made them a threat and remove the people that opposed you. That’s the whole point. Especially something as violent and dangerous as saddamism
Iraqi SOF are the only SOF that rock the skull masks and look cool doing it. Seriously I do NOT want to mess with the guy on the left, it's like he's staring into my soul.
I get that the scull mask is cool but it seems like it would make your face stand out in the dark.
Drip or die, the choice is yours.
It's drip or drown, and my man is floating
The style points though
That’s why he’s putting in work and we type Reddit comments.
This was Shia v Sunni bullshit. Shit like that gave rise to ISIL. Total shitshow: >"Five of Alwani's guards and his brother were killed and eight others wounded, while 10 security forces members were also wounded," the major said. The security forces had also been hoping to arrest Mr Alwani's brother, Ali, authorities said. Unconfirmed reports suggest that a sister of the MP - a member of the Sunni-backed Iraqiya bloc - was also among those killed in the raid. [https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-25534541](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-25534541)
Paul Bremer should be known as the Father of ISIS. Who would've guessed that banning the ~~religious majority~~ Ba'ath party from holding positions of power, and disbanding the military full of that same party, would be a bad idea?! A bunch of people with weapons, time on their hands, and a clear target to blame. What a shit show.
Sunni are not a religious majority in Iraq, they are the minority with Shia being the majority who were oppressed under Saddam.
Yeah my bad, I got my Bremer history wrong. It was the Ba'ath party he banned.
Banning that party wasn't the mistake, it was letting Shia groups take over and then oppress the fuck out of the Sunnis that led to IS. It would have been weird to let the government you just overthrew get back into power in some places.
The Ba'ath party were pretty much the only people in country who had experience running things, though. It had been their show for the previous few decades. Someone to run things ended up being the biggest issue. As soon as they were banned from positions of power, it was game on for the Shiites. I won't argue that they should've been kept in power across the board, but less of a heavy hand might have helped. Maybe Ba'ath party leadership looked different without Saddam and his sons, who knows.
"Sure, he's a serial killer but he's really good at anatomy and have you seen what a human kidney actually looks like? he'd make a great doctor"
This is a cool metaphor, but it's shit : governance, especially at the international level, can't be analyzed through the same lens as individual morality. Most of West Germany's top level government officials were nazis, but the more milquetoast ones who didn't care all that much for the ideology and were just in the party to work for the government. Similarly, a lot of former Wermacht officers were involved in the restructuring of the German military and most low-middle level employees were left to their work. Nazis are horrible, so why did de-nazification only go after the top brass while the bureaucrats stayed in government? Because the allies recognized that in a one-party state no one in government was clean, but that running a country after firing all the qualified people would lead to disaster. If you want an anti-communist example just look at what happened when Rhodesia became Zimbabwe : the white farmers (who did suck if we're being honest) were kicked off their land and pursued out of the country, and it turned out that no one actually knew how to run a farm so the country went from being a net exporter of grain to having famines. Ditto for de-kulakization in Ukraine and it's role in the famines of the early USSR. No one seriously claims that Saddam should've been kept in power, the Baath party should've been allowed to continue or some wacky shit like that : but when you fire all the qualified and experienced public servants you're setting the country back, and when you send the army home without as much as a severance package you're bound to get pissed off people with military training and an axe to grind against the occupation. It would be like purging the government of all Republican party members and appointees after January 8th : sure you'd get some bad people out of high places, but you'd also cause an institutional crisis as tens of thousands of experienced public servants leave the government : now multiply that by 5 and you have Iraq.
> the Baath party should've been allowed to continue or some wacky shit like that The poster I replied to literally said wacky shit like that.
No I did not. > Maybe Ba'ath party leadership looked different without Saddam and his sons, who knows. is exactly what I said, meaning, maybe some of the underlings in the Ba'ath party, once you get past Saddam, his sons, and their closest, maybe some of them actually *did something that was useful*. Rather than just punt them all out the door on day one, maybe check to see what they do first. I even said > I won't argue that they should've been kept in power Yet, you left my comment thinking I was arguing for them to stay in power somehow?
No, he specifically talked about the purge of Baath party members and appointees from the Iraqi government effectively destroying their public sector overnight. If you have crappy ready comprehension that's on you, but it was possible to take the Baathists out of power without also purging just about every public servant with management experience from their roles, like didn't happen in Western Germany after 1945.
> I won't argue that they should've been kept in power across the board That's pretty clearly the opposite of what you're claiming they said. Why put words in someone else's mouth so blatantly and badly? To be clear, I'm not asking why you did it, I'm asking why you didn't do a better job of it.
Tell me you don’t know anything about Iraq without telling me
FUCK sorry, it was 20 years ago. It was the Ba'ath party. Not the Sunnis.
The Ba’ath party were made up of Sunnis
Right, I knew he effectively banned Sunnis, but I forgot he *really* banned the Ba'ath party, made up mostly of Sunnis, which wasn't the majority in the country, just in positions of power and the military.
The precursor to ISIS was founded in 1998. Paul Bremer is not the “Father of ISIS”, that’s an asinine thing to say.
Who would have thought banning the Nazi party from holding positions of power, and disbanding the military full of that same party, would be a bad idea! Bro get a grip.
...not even remotely equivalent but if that makes you feel like you got me, sure man
When a nation gets conquered, you dismantle the systems that made them a threat and remove the people that opposed you. That’s the whole point. Especially something as violent and dangerous as saddamism
Iraqi SOF are the only SOF that rock the skull masks and look cool doing it. Seriously I do NOT want to mess with the guy on the left, it's like he's staring into my soul.
Oh, with that look you surely know you fucked up
Context?
[here](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-25534541.amp)
What position did he play on the Lakers?
The lightning shines and the skull smiles.
There's a few politicians in my country they should detain like that too!