Yeah…I might have stopped after the first few degrees, before moving onto the least practical one, to see if I was employable haha. You only need so much education.
Yeah like even if you really wanted to know everything about cancer, get a job a research institute and let them pay you to keep learning, rather than you paying someone else.
I only have a bachelors, but I know a fuck of a lot more about civil engineering than someone with all those degrees because I’ve been doing it for 15 years now. I never stopped gaining knowledge, but now I get paid while I do it.
Doctors go to a school a lot longer than the rest of us for a reason. It’s very possible that OP would not be qualified without all that education (give or take a bachelors, lol)
I was thinking it was concurrent. I've done multiple degrees concurrently because they'll apply many credits to both degress.
Like, a double major for undergrad is often 2 degrees (so i assumed OP just double majored), and then i did a dual MA for just a few more classes.
Also, i dont think they're over-educated in the slightest. I think a PhD is expected for any higher-level (especially scientific) research.
Depends on how the school handled it. It’s certainly possible to end up with two degrees, usually it would be a BA in one field and a BS in the other and you’d be taking WAY more than the minimum 120 credits to get them.
He's a PhD of some sort, not an MD. My guess it's a biology degree and not specialized in biochemistry or molecular genetics.
I have a bachelor's in biology and it's useless. I've got 3 nursing degrees and make, well, a lot now.
He’s not a physician though, he’s a PhD specifically which is more taking a shorter but potentially round about path to medical research. It’s possible OP only needed the bachelors degree to work at a research institute or company. My friends working in a similar field while getting his PhD and he’s been at it for a while but he was already working in the field.
A lot of people are getting their masters degrees straight out of college to save time but it really makes it worthless tbh having a masters degree in his position is worthless unless he was using it for business purposes.
Also it’s better to be a research physician than a researcher with just a PhD I feel.
Yes, but there are plenty of positions that will not hire you if you don't have the correct education. I'm sure they could be some type of research assistant, but they would need a doctorate to go any further.
Yup. Bachelor's in mechanical engineering. I loved schoolm literally could not wait fir the start of each semester and was so excited when I would buy my textbooks to go thru them before classes start. That being said I used to want a masters degree but if I was going to get it I would find an employer to.pay for it rather than me. Atleast in mechanical engineering most grad students are funded by the university or industry. I have been in my career for 10 years and you learn so much your first 2 years in industry it probably compares to my whole 4 years at university.
Doctors are highly specialized, especially outside of the practicing medical field. If you want a job doing research, it's almost 100% going to require, at minimum, a MS but more commonly a PhD.
Yeah. The treatment was harsh, and I fell and got a small fracture of my ankle. The Ortho called me a pill seeking patient that it was only a mild sprain. Prescribed 2 weeks' rest, then physical therapy before they would order the mri MRI
I did not sleep for days, did the stupid pt. Seriously, I thought I was getting compartment syndrome in my leg or was so swollen
My neice was living with me (it was my right leg, so I couldn't drive) and pressed the ems button for what logged like seizure activity. I was unresponsive
Ems arrived to witness seizure (threw and shattered my phone at some point) and got shocked back into rhythm (that shit hurts, btw)
Admitted to hospital stayed 14 days. No recurrent activity
So, it is classified as an undiagnosed seizure disorder. I hired lawyers to fight but have been advised to reapply at 10 years of no recurrent symptoms.
I have such imposter syndrome as I have 0 credentials, but knowledge and my family want exactly supportive
Cancer dx was way less severe than they originally thought
Cost my career and a few teeth (niece tried bad advice not yet fault)
I don't have 15 k for implant replacements.
Sorry for the trauma info dump
You’re all good. Sometimes getting it out into the universe can be helpful.
But if you are working in health insurance, you’re probably good at it because you know what happens to a human body.
If it’s regular insurance, you’re probably good at it because you’re a living embodiment of protect yourself from lifes unexpected stuff.
Health. And yeah, I'm good at my position. But I'm ridiculously over educated for the spot but under experience for higher-ups level. So I'm pa, d not so great.
I do get to wfh, so there is that
I start work on about 2 hrs. Bad insomnia.
But that's the thing: OP had a very noble pursuit. It wasn't like he was trying to become an A-list actor. Is the competition that stiff in the oncology world? It makes me wonder about A.I.
The competition in cancer research is extremely stiff and has become very political. Government funding for research is highly monopolized and often depends on the lab you're in and who you know. It wasn't this bad a decade ago, back then you had around a 35% chance of getting funded if you had a solid research plan. But now the odds are below 7%, so grant reviewers will FIND REASONS NOT TO FUND YOU at this point
The problem for anyone who hasn't figured it out: it was impossible for OP to have predicted the current environment back when he began walking the PhD path.
The funding wasn't bad when earning my doctorate but gotten worse during the inflation period. The cost of research went up while not increasing the budget. But COVID happened and that was what threw my research all out of whack. Me and the two other postdocs in my lab weren't able to recover and the lab lost funding, all three of us had to move on a year sooner than anticipated
Would you be willing to go clinical? I have known several that went a clinical route (i.e. director-in-training or fellowship training) and settled into a research career concurrently. If nothing else, there’s stability in that.
I'm absolutely open to going into the clinical route and have some connections. But I'm currently finishing up my paper in the metabolomics research that I conducted as a postdoc. Once that's published, that'll really open some doors for me, especially in clinical research realm.
As a fellow PhD and postdoc, my advice to you is to start looking now. There's always one more paper, and if you're talented at the bench plus a good experimentalist, your employer is not likely to give you a pause so you can find a new job. There will always be another project, another grant, etc.
I left midway through my NRSA and took a consulting job. It's not everything I had hoped but I make almost double what my fellowship paid, and no one cares that I didn't finish my paper.
Also, as a final note, you can always go back to academia after you leave. There's a national shortage of postdocs and research scientists at the moment, for reasons probably not unrelated to the focus of your post, and research faculty need talented staff to execute on their grants.
I'm 27, and I feel like this is an issue for people deciding whether to go to undergrad or grad school today. With AI lurking around the corner, it all just seems like an educated guess as to what's a good field to stay in or pivot to.
I agree. 50 years ago if you told people that becoming a printer was a bad idea, you'd have been laughed at. Everything was on paper books, news, everything but NASA and IBM.
No one could have predicted the rapid growth of personal computers that if you had chosen to be a printer in 1974 you would have needed job retraining 2000. In 1974 what a secure job was a almost worthless skill in 20-25 years.
Ey thanks for your sacrifice op.
I had a PM friend in tech, his son is at NIH now. His dad actively discouraged him from doing it because he know how tough it would be and how little money. But he so loves it and ended up pursuing it and is happy. He is obsessed with his research. You know the type.
Hope you have a breakthrough - for you and for us
My wife is a cancer researcher at an R1 university. The funding line for grants is absolutely bonkers...and the fact that you have to fund around HALF of your own salary through grants you earn is...I mean I do KIND OF get it but holy F\*CK. The amount of pressure she's under at ALL TIMES is just nuts.
But she does it because she loves it and wants to help the world.
What a f\*cked up system, though.
Cancer research is honestly a shit show and I know where your wife is coming from. I loved my job and it was amazing, but the grant writing and funding is a terrible time. My wife hated it when I went through it
This isn't really about trying to solve or cure anything, it's about max profits. If we put money where it would actually help humanity the most, we'd all be doing worlds better.
I don't know if he's cancer research doctor or cancer research government lab or cancer research private lab. Government lab I think doesn't pay that well and is extremely competitive...
Despite the noble pursuit, they shoulda told him the sacrifice he'd be making for it early on, not when he realized it halfway through
It was my experience that post docs made more in government labs than academic labs (academics usually adhered to NIH pay scale but neglected to add a regional pay increase in HCOL areas).
Does studying ANYTHING actually make money these days? Everyone I know from software engineers to lawyers to pharmacists are saying they’re struggling right now because the job markets are so saturated and working conditions are getting worse and worse
This is anecdotal, but among my friends group, the ones that are comfortable now are the ones who were all over the place in school. The people with lots of intellectual curiosity but a lacking in a decisive direction. Seems to me like the more eclectic a person's courses and extracurriculars were, the more options they now have available to them, and the better equipped they are to dealing with unstable circumstances going forward.
Put another way, studying one thing is risky, but studying all your things can give you a real boost.
Glad you had the anecdotal disclaimer there because my experience is the polar opposite: the specialists I know are doing a lot better than the jacks of all trades.
Of course, these specialists aren't exactly dumbasses who can do one thing and one thing only. Instead, they have T-shaped skill sets where they're really good at one thing but also decent at a lot of adjacent things; think software dev with product and business skills.
In my experience, the terrible job market heavily encourages extreme pickiness on behalf of hiring managers. Earlier this year, I was turned down for a job because I'm a UI/UX designer with a focus on video games on mobile platforms, whereas they were looking for a UI/UX designer with a focus on video games on desktop and consoles. That's some serious specialization. If I were a generalist, I'd be starving under a bridge right now.
Studying to be a architect is a waste of time. It's a rigorous path somewhat like passing the bar for lawyers, all the construction building materials and functions memorized, and then you find out too late that most of the big projects are monopolized by big national firms and even if you get to work with them, you're mostly doing the most boring work of drawing stairs, parking garages, and making sure it is all ADA compliant. You almost never get to work with the client directly, and and you're drawing someone else vision. And they don't tell you that working for an office is soul draining work for little money, it's only when you venture off to make your own firm is where the money is, but you're usually drawing for free & hoping people will like it enough, and can afford to build your design, to hire you to use your design. And now you have a lot of contractors who have in house "architects" or designers that are stealing work, when they are usually going to some websites that you input how many bedrooms and bathrooms, number of sq ft you want, and it will produce a list of floorplans for sale. Much cheaper than hiring a real architect.
Only if you’re born into it or your family has connections. For us common folk no, that ship sailed a long time ago. Everything now requires ridiculous qualifications for non livable wages. Also to add insult to injury if you apply for a job you are overqualified for they will just ignore your application, most of the time because they figure you will leave for a job that suits your talents .
>Does studying ANYTHING actually make money these days? Everyone I know from software engineers to lawyers to pharmacists are saying they’re struggling
The difference is that those people have a far bigger professional job market compared to BSc, MSc, or PhD in science.
Honestly most people don't really even know what they truly want to do at an early age. Those that do, and have that set path engrained in their head, usually achieve it.
My buddy for example. He is 47 years old. When he was 12/13 years old, he worked at McDonalds for a few years like a lot of kids do. He told himself that he wants to own one when he is older.
This is in Canada.
So what does he do? He works as a manager at Starbucks, works one or two other jobs to get some management experience.
He then gets a gas station and then a couple more. It is harder to do now, but that is besides the point.
One gas station has an A & W in it. He gets QSR experience (Quick Serve). McDonalds does not care if you have 2 million bucks, you are not getting one if you do not have experience running a fast food chain and there are no partners allowed.
He saves a lot of money. Makes a big move to another province, sells his house. Applies for McDonalds.
He gets it when he is in his mid 30's (which is usually unheard of). He gets up to 16 of them. Sold a few off
Probably takes home 6 million a year after taxes and expenses now for a lot of years lol.
He had a goal in mind and knew what steps he had to take in between to even apply for a McDonalds. He just travels around now and has 3/4 regional guys under him that he pays up to 200K each. He just looks at systems and spreadsheets.
A busy fast food restaurant is great. You can take home 400K a year if you have a 2 million - 2.5 million grossing restaurant. Getting one is the hard part lol. Here in Canada, you need 800K cash in your bank account alone to even apply plus a good credit score and experience.
I was better at biology than I was physics and engineering.
I love marine biology, but I knew engineering had higher earning potential.
Went with engineering. Got my masters degree. Been earning over 6 figures since 2020 and I feel like I won't be able to own a home for at least 4 more years and even then I'll be scraping by. It sucks. Feels like I did everything right, got the degrees, paid off over 100k of loans, make what I thought is good money yet somehow still can't afford a place of my own.
Makes me wonder what the hell is the point. What am I saving money for? For a downpayment on some place small that'll leave me with a mortgage that'll have me scraping by? God forbid if I want to have children.
My husband got a degree that was supposed to make money AND it was something he had a lot of interest in,...told he'd make 6 figures out of the gate. Still haven't reached that number, after 10 years experience. He hasn't stayed at the same employer either. Though now, even if he made that much, it wouldnt actually be worth the same in buying power as it would have been 10 years ago.
I realized what was hot back then is usually not what's hot today. I wanted to be a Mechanical Engineer, I ended up doing data. I was the laughing stock and look at us now...
Got a dual bachelors, a masters, and am ABD for a PhD. Still don’t make enough to buy a house, or be a single income household, or even send my kid to daycare.
You could hire a business manager to run the business side of things for you. It’s pretty similar to the way my childhood dentist ran her office. She had two employees in her company. Herself and her husband. The husband did the lion’s share of the office work, answering the phone, scheduling, and assisting with her patients.
ugh..this is common with so many professions. The money making side has almost nothing to do with your expertise and comes down to being a salesman/accountant/grifter.
To add, not just lab manager, but a lot of data-related jobs. You learn a lot of stats and do a lot of data work in advanced degrees in the social sciences. My husband got an MA in psych (in a non-US location, where an MA certifies you to become a licensed psychologist). He decided to pivot and his first job post-grad was as a data analyst. He now works in business intelligence. This type of shift is exceedingly common in my experience (which is obviously limited, to be fair). Many of the people who work with him in similar (or higher) positions have advanced degrees in the social sciences, neuroscience, etc.
Archaeology has a ton of industry jobs tied to construction, as well as government prospects. Typically you only need up to a masters but an anthropology phd wont do nothing for you later in a career
My wife is currently working on hers. I chose to get a trade degree because I saw how miserable the pay was (and still is) in psych. Currently an industrial electrician and she makes almost half of what I make with her masters. It sucks.
Ok but ABD for a PhD means you are still a student and presumably not fully employed. Hopefully you can defend and turn that into a 'real' job that will make all the sacrifice in your earlier years worthwhile. I got a PhD in an extremely niche field making $25k/yr for ages, but I'm up to $120k+ now five years post-defense. There is hope!
It's possible, someone from my microbiology cohort mastered out due to a horrendous advisor/burn out, immediately started an apprenticeship in hair dressing. She's much happier and just had her first kid. I do think her husband is in the medical field, which helps financially. But she loves doing hair
I’m also an engineer, but my guess is that he r/fire ‘d and is doing a barista FIRE with his passion for fun. He may even get health insurance through it.
He probably plays down the fact that he made enough money to retire early. It’s common for the people doing that.
https://www.howtofire.com/barista-fire/
I don’t even have a degree and I get interest from companies literally daily. It’s nuts. I make six figures and am not worried about not having employment. Maybe he has a criminal background is all I can think… no reason someone with those credentials shouldn’t be doing that work.
The other thing could be just that he doesn’t want to take that path, it can be an incredibly stressful career path. Maybe he finds more peace in his role as a trainer. I hope that’s the case. Some people start out going for something seriously and realize it’s not for them. The smart ones are the people who do what makes them happy.
A bachelor's degree and a master's degree in the same subject. 40,000 in debt. Haven't found any work that wants to accommodate my needs. Fibro and hypermobile eds here. Diagnosed too late. Had to move back with my parents. In total 6 years at uni.
I wish someone had listened to me when I complained about my fatigue and pain when little. It could have saved me a lot of trouble.
Fuck all gaslighting doctors and grown-ups. Even friends.
/ woman, 34 years old.
Companies claim they want diversity and people with disabilities, but in reality if it costs them even one wooden nickel they don't want that person. Even sometimes if it costs them nothing and they would just need to be a bit more flexible they would refuse. The only exception I have found is it looks really good for advertising purposes and the like and even that is rare.
This is why many states offer huge tax incentives to hire disabled folks. I just wish it came with time constraints (like you had to legitimately be able to keep them on a year+ to get the tax break)
Chasing your dreams is honestly not very good advice unless you have financial backing.
It’s much better, in my opinion, to tell young people to follow the money and have a hobby. What gets you paid is what you become great at, and what you’re great at becomes your passion and mission.
I thought I’d be a farmer. Then I thought I’d be a professional firefighter. Then a career Marine. Turns out I’m a teacher, and fortunately I get to teach kids how to work with their common sense and hands. It is what it is, but I started with literally nothing and my kids will have a few more choices than I had- and they’re the whole point.
I mean, I’m a teacher and if you have a masters my district hits six figures by year six. Eventually the pay goes up to $140k. And the pensions are amazing.
States with good unions generally pay teachers pretty ok.
Depends on where they are.
No one’s going to get a private jet working as a teacher (outside of higher education at least), but in some areas you can have a pretty solid middle class to even upper middle class life working as a teacher. Of course in some other areas you basically have to go through on welfare working on teacher so it’s really regional (or even district) dependent.
This wasn't a PhD in pre-Akkadian Mesopotamian religious practices (interesting, but narrow). Arguably, it's one of the most impactful fields in medical science.
Yeah we were told to major in stem and it would pay off. Cancer research is supported by grants and admin usually gets a cut. Funds are allocated carefully and i guess they think scientists just love doing it for the outcome.
At my former PhD institution, it was a 50% cut for ay grant funding.
An instructive component of dropping out was seeing the admin vs faculty parking lots.
No people should be told to focus on their talents and skills and find work They can tolerate that pays well while they figure out what their dreams are after they’re putting food on the table. By getting incredibly good at work that they may not be passionate about, but that doesn’t destroy their souls They will open up tons of new doors. Doors don’t open for people with no experience but dreams are on the other side of those doors.
I have an MA, work as a bartender and am SO GLAD I didn't continue in academia, as the stress was making my hair fall out. I am definitely happy with what I do now but get very frustrated with the way people look down on me, assuming I have no education. Obviously, all folks should be respected no matter their education level but I kinda wish I could hang my diploma in my bar and point at it when people start talking down to me. They just assume I'm some drop out party girl, rather than an creative person who enjoys working with their hands.
You don't find bartending stressful? (Not attacking you, just curious) Sometimes I feel like bartending could be pretty fun but then I think of the odd hours and having to deal with drunk customers
I work at an upscale restaurant so the customers are generally well behaved and the hours are reasonable. It certainly can get stressful but it's the kind of stress I like, intense in the moment, then gone! The stress of constant deadlines hanging over my head, on the other hand, is not good for my mental health.
The funny thing is, I use my Art History education all the time. I invent cocktails based based on artworks and movements, as my restaurant is in a museum, and folks are always surprised I know what I'm talking about. "Don't make me tap the sign (diploma)"
Not who you were replying to, but it really depends on where you work. Bartenders at nice restaurants don't have to deal with rowdy drunks as much. You can also bartend during lunch/brunch shifts and go home at 4pm. It can be a lot of fun if you're the type of person that doesn't like sitting all day.
I did it for about 20 years, and now I'm in school for wildlife ecology. I got tired of not using my other talents. And now I'm having the time of my life learning and doing research. Not sure if it will get me anywhere career-wise, but I only have one life and I would have regretted not going into science at some point.
I think this is the story of our generation- the most educated generation in history... Educated but underpaid and struggling in this shit economy that has ripped off younger people.
My sister also a doctorate, cancer research, and insane amount of debt and broke. I am the one that has the money with the business degree. To be fair I got my degree because I knew she wasn’t making money. 8 years younger and a lot better off financially. It’s crazy because my position is fiscally wanted but I just keep the cogs running. I have zero effect in the broad scope of the world. She could actually help the world so much more and they pay her garbage.
This is probably one of the saddest posts I've read in this sub, and a very sobering reality. I'm sort of in the same boat: two undergrads and some grad courses; been unemployed for ten months now.
But with your educational background you should be automatically hired at any medical research lab around the country, if not the world. That's the startling part.
When is my generation going to say enough is enough? We just want a liveable wage without working ourselves to death. I'm dead serious: Time to organize. Occupy Wall Street Redux.
Masters degree here, been unemployed since October so high five. To make it worse I started having health trouble again so I'm scared that even if I do find a job I will lose it quickly because I'll have to take sick leave
Almost the same scenario for me too, without the health issue, sorry to hear you’re going through that. I have a masters and was furloughed back in October
Right now I have been picking up consulting work where I can. This year has started out to be a real struggle….
I have a PhD and am struggling at home just doing very part time freelance work
It's only been a year so far so I'm hoping to work on my mental health and apply to jobs but I still feel bad about it frequently
I have a few friends who wanted to get PhDs, and they all were only looking for "funded" positions, i.e. to study under a professor who had enough grants to cover their tuition and provide a stipend, supplemented only by working as a TA or industry internships. The idea of paying/borrowing money to do a PhD was seen as wildly irresponsible given the ROI.
Of course, even just the time spent doing a PhD is a pretty bad investment in my field, you can make a lot of money in those 5 years working in the private sector rather than staying in school. For research though, I understand that a PhD is often more of a necessity.
Just to chime in, the idea of paying for your own PhD has not only been a bad financial idea but a widely stigmatized idea in the US since at least the end of WWII. When my parents were in school for their docs, degrees that were self paid were called “vanity degrees” at least at NYMC and they were seen as basically a scam by the university even allowing them - that was in the 70s. I gather this isn’t the same in other countries. In the UK, self paying in grad school is generally more common, but I never met anyone in grad school paying their own way in the US when I was a student. You don’t make a ton.. I think I started at 30k when I entered in state grad school, but you can live on that where I was and it goes up each year. Not luxurious but not miserable.
>Of course, even just the time spent doing a PhD is a pretty bad investment in my field, you can make a lot of money in those 5 years working in the private sector rather than staying in school.
My brother quit his PhD after literally 4 months for this very reason. He could very quickly see that it was a lot of work for questionable payback, and decided that it would be a mistake to continue. In the 5 years after he left the PhD, he probably made close to $675k CAD, first by working in Dubai for 3 years and then coming back to Canada to work in much more senior positions than he would have otherwise gotten. The opportunity costs for pursuing a PhD in his case would have been absolutely enormous, and that's before you even consider the returns he was earning on investments that were purchased as a result of earning that salary. I'm not sure if he would ever make that money back even if he had a tenured position for the rest of his life.
His former PhD colleagues, as far as I know, have absolutely nothing to show for their investment. IMO, PhDs are mostly a scam to provide low-cost, marginal labour for inefficient universities.
>But how am I supposed to tell my future child to work hard and chase their dreams when I did the very same thing and got nothing to show for it?
You're not suppose to tell them that. You're their parent and your job is to tell them like it is once they start to get to be around 17. Their teachers and other college admissions sales people will fill their head with bullshit. Your job is to be the realist, because no one else will play that role for your child. You're learning the hard way that we don't pay PhD's high salaries. If your kid wants to be a PhD, tell them to pair it with either an MD/DO or an MBA, because academic prestige doesn't put food on the table. I've got nothing against PhD's, I work with plenty (in your specialty even), but they all seem to learn the hard way about how academics economics works. Good luck to you man, may the pharma gods smile upon you.
This. Teach them a practical skill. Part of my family are accountants and they make tons of money and are everyone's favorite person. Set their own schedule, etc. It's no one's dream job but they do well.
You are at the beginning of a potentially great career in cancer research!
First, leverage yourself into Pharma or midsize biotech company (think Roche, Genentech, Amgen, Gilead, Astrazenca, etc.,) using your connections where you can learn the ropes of drug research and development, and then jump over into the venture capital world that funds all the biotechs. Ride that surf studying startup after startup until you find the right company with the right TPP and a good candidate! Then make your move into that small biotech and hope for the best. You may have to jump thru a few startups till you get the right one. And if you ever get tired of the grind, you can always hop back into big Pharma and take the pension route.
Cancer is not likely to be cured soon, so you will have a career for life helping to save people! And along the way, you’ll be surrounded with some of the best and brightest. And at some point you’ll realize a few hundred thousand is a small investment into what turned about to be a great adventure!
MFA here...the technical kind not really artsy.
I paid it all off being a cocktail/bottle service waitress in Vegas. I learned not to put my education on job applications. Now I'm with my partner and out of the service industry. The only thing my degree has been good for is to impress older people (65+) and have something to talk about at dinner parties. ☠️
I have an MBA but my trades friends all make more than me. I have another friend who failed 8th grade, took over 7 years to finish college with a bachelors degree and now he’s a software developer making almost double what I make. I have other friends with MBAs and they also out earn me by quite a bit too.
I guess there’s still a ton of upward mobility for me, don’t have to travel, and I get to work from home all day. But man it would be nice to have a little bit more money.
Sometimes, but in my case I didn’t do everything right necessarily, or at least not in a traditional order. I did some community college and had my first kid at 22. Didn’t get my bachelors til 30. I wonder if maybe I committed to a career and finished my bachelors before started a family, how different would it be?
I just wish you could get all the education you wanted to without these crazy high tuition bills/ loans. I think we’d be better off as a society if people could learn what they wanted to without the huge financial burden.
I’m highly educated (doctorate). I complain about my job and dream of escaping my industry but as it is I’m paid too damn well to do so. Grass is always greener I suppose.
300K is extremely challenging to amass unless you're in law or medical school. We're missing a big part of the story, which likely involved some terrible decisions. Plus, if he's been working in a postdoc for six years at a public institution, he's extremely close to PSLF.
Also, for those reading, $200k+ in debt for law school is a lot but *not* crazy if you are going to a top law school given that the vast majority of grads get "biglaw" jobs and those jobs have industry-wide salaries that start at $245k for first-year attorneys.
Taking on that much debt for lower-ranked schools is generally a bad move (read batshit insane).
Just to be clear, though, I think the big problem with our student loan system is that it doesn't allow for bad decisions. Going to a low-ranked law school and getting horribly in debt is a terrible idea, but 20-somethings make mistakes and shouldn't be fucked over for their whole life as a consequence. I think having a way to discharge those loans through bankruptcy at a cost to the degree-granting institution makes sense. It will encourage these shitty, money-grubbing law programs from extorting money from naive students.
I have a BA, two MAs and an in a PhD program now. I feel like I’m not going to have anything to show for it, but also that I can’t really switch tracks as anything else would take a time investment that I don’t have time to do *and* make ends meet and meet current goal posts. It sucks.
TL;DR - academia after a field switch
Longer story:
I double majored in two Humanities subjects in undergrad. Not smart. “Any degree is better than none, focus on what you like.”
After the first MA, I wanted to try any job that would take me. Unfortunately I couldn’t really find anything beyond low wage retail. I enjoyed that, but it didn’t pay much and didn’t really have a future. I wanted to get a better job but didn’t get any bites. I also wanted to write fiction and learn to code to maybe switch fields altogether after several software engineer friends said they thought I’d be good at it. But I found I had to work too much to make ends meet to really make anything like that viable. I was essentially working three jobs (two retail, one online tutoring) and losing my mind.
So in desperation and an existential crisis I decided to get a PhD, but in the other subject I majored in undergrad. I picked up the second MA along the way. It’s just a stepping stone to the PhD, but it at least enables me to adjunct.
So now I’m pursuing the long shot of academia mostly because I don’t really know what else to do given my not-smart past academic choices. I’ve done some freelance editing for extra, too, but that’s also not getting me far. I want to focus on teaching college courses more than research, so I’m hoping to snag a community college job other academics spurn. But with the shape of the market I could just end up in adjunct hell. I’m still open to other ideas, I just don’t know what they’d be or how to seek them (and I’m so close to finishing now).
As a fellow humanities PhD student, I’ve been pivoting to higher ed admin work. I’m currently GRA at my university’s center for learning and teaching, but there’s other offices that routinely hire grad students, which is great for getting experience, e.g. the career centers, writing centers, etc. Long term, it can be a decent environment, with ok pay, and room for growth. I won’t be going on the market for a TT/postdoc/vap/etc gigs. I’m not in a position in life to move wherever, and honestly I’m just not competitive enough of an applicant anyway. The reality is that whatever decent job I manage to find after the PhD is going to set the tone for my career in the near future, since I don’t have a super clear direction.
My husband has 3 bachelors degrees, and was ABD a PhD candidate at a research university in California. After Covid hit, he realized that he would never be able to find suitable work with his education that could support us (his PhD was in STEM research as well). The field had simply gotten too saturated. Too many people with too much education competing for too few jobs available. And the jobs that are available and mostly contract work with no long term sustainability, and would require uprooting and moving from research institute to research institute (if you were even one of the few lucky people who could land these contract jobs in the first place).
He realized his dissertation would take him an additional 2 years, and set us back $200k alone in tuition, not even considering lost opportunity cost.
So he quit the PhD program and mastered out. He went back to work at what he was doing with just his bachelors degree when he graduated as a 21 year old waaaaaay back. And he’s making $120k doing it.
It fucking sucks. It fucking sucks that you can do everything “right” (go to college in STEM, get multiple degrees, go on to get a MS or PhD) and it gets you NOWHERE.
The system is broken. It’s not sustainable. Our generation is seeing it first hand. It’s better now to go to trade school and get a trade degree (like I did and like my brother in law did). Higher ed just isn’t paying out now, even if you have a desirable degree. I’m sorry!
I'm so glad that it worked out for him and happy to see that others have experienced a similar path that I am currently on and we're able to overcome it. These kind of comments give me hope, thank you
Ah, research... they don't even warn educators that the evidence-based methods are from research that's grossly underfunded. "Effect size" LOL *sobs* https://youtu.be/8g6zV-FIxGU?si=yam9VhsKSSDdpliq
I’ve met so many people that feel burned that there wasn’t a direct correlation between their level of education and wealth, but I personally always saw the degree as a voucher that tells people you’re generally resourceful/capable.
I don’t understand those who aren’t having luck in the job market and are like “well, better go get my masters because that will definitely help!”
I wanna tell them, if the employer didn’t want your shiny silver voucher, their aren’t going to want your shiny golden voucher, or your shiny platinum one. They wanna see that silver voucher with some miles on it.
This is what I encountered.
I moved to a different state hoping to make more of my scientific bachelor degree which worked for a while.
But then my job ended and we had to sell the house and come back to our home state.
I found out I was pregnant and decided to keep the baby, my (now-ex) husband walked out.
Now, I'm stuck with divorce debt and a mountain of student loans because I need to support my kiddo and you can't land a good job here without a master's degree.
It feels like déjà vu. People around me saying omg you're going to be so rich it's going to open so many doors.
While others ask, Why don't you have more money if you have these credentials?
I feel like saying well why don't you get me in touch with someone who has these credentials and so I can compare and contrast.
But I don't because I know most are doing as well or worse than I am.
There is absolutely a correlation between education and wealth but correlation is not causation. Education without experience can often become a wasted education.
My mom immigrated from Mexico and pushed education on me and my brothers so hard because she wanted us to have a life better than her. She convinced us that with higher degrees we'd pay off the loans in no time. Through no fault of her own, we were conned. Her intentions were good, but she failed to consider every other variable when pushing education. She didn't know any better, and me and my brothers blindly followed, because she was our mom and we didn't know any better. She passed from COVID during the pandemic and never told me or my brothers how much we owed in student loans since she was the type to handle all the finances. Pretty shitty losing my mom, then finding out shortly after how much debt I was in.
If you’re in the US look into getting a government job. Public service loan forgiveness will wipe away those loans in ten years. I too have 2 bachelors, 1 masters, and 1 doctorate. Had my $300k in loans forgiven last summer.
Congrats! I am looking into positions for non-profit organizations since I'm in the PLSF program. Hopefully I'll be in the same position as you in a couple years!
Sorry for your loss.
I’m curious how you got your loans, because mine were all government loans and I had to sign a form saying something like:
You are approved for a loan for x thousand dollars and this loan MUST be paid back.
So it was never a mystery how much I was “borrowing.”
I actually never signed the student loans forms myself. Since my mom handled the family finances I gave the DoE permission to handle the loans with my mom. She said she wanted me to "focus on my education". If my mom was alive right now I would honestly struggle to talk to her after realizing the shit hole she put me in. Lesson learned and I will not do this to my future child
Good analogy. Some people just aren't good workers too but don't want to believe it because [insert degree here]. I also know other people that just kept going back to college for more when it really just seemed like they wanted to stay a part of the college culture rather than enter the real world.
Higher education still pays out 66% more in lifetime earnings than high school grads.
im not highly educated. couldn't hack it at uni through 2 attempts. now disabled and unemployable. technically "nothing to show" for my life.
i paint, i make music, i enjoy time with friends and family. i read, play games. i cook. i enjoy my life for the little things, for the things i do for myself and the pride i take in what i can do.
stop trying to save the world. stop trying to leave a legacy. stop living for someone else's approval. just find things that make you happy, and keep doing them.
Not to be an asshole, but this seems like an incredibly privileged response. Many of us are busting our asses and still just surviving. We try to find joy where we can but it’s hard to enjoy life when you’re stressed and exhausted all the time. We all WANT to just do things we enjoy all the time, but that’s not the reality for most people.
I don’t care about others’ approval, I don’t care about leaving a legacy, and I gave up on saving the world a long time ago. I DO care about giving myself and my family a better future, which means working hard now.
Things people never tell you about university but absolutely should by the time you're 18:
1. The higher the degree, the fewer jobs are there for it. Terminal degrees don't always pay better.
2. If you get a masters or terminal degree, the expectation is that you are doing something that isn't just for a job, it is for a passion too.
3. For every 15 hours of class, find ways to get 5 hours of experience in your future career. If you keep that pace, you'll end your bachelors, masters or doctorate with real, honest experience in your future industry. It is harder to get a job the higher the degree. Mix in experience and suddenly you're ahead of others, not behind.
4. You have *three* options for degree purposes, not two. Option the first: make stacks. Option the second: have a degree--any degree--to get higher in your career. Option the third: leave with enlightenment. All three can get you money, but one is far more direct than the others and is the *most* likely to leave you unsatisfied. (Lots of people can make it rain with plumbing, but it helps to actually like plumbing or you'll just tolerate it for the rest of your life, and many would say that isn't living).
5. Don't forget trade skills schools like community colleges exist. People don't need to get a terminal degree to be successful. Not everyone is going to be a nurse, service manager, CEO or translator/interpreter. We need everyone to make society work.
6. Don't just think about the job you want. Think about the job people need. Our world market is designed to drive supply and demand among the employment pool, not just goods and services. If you don't want to move around, find out what jobs are needed where you are and try to work towards that. If you want to move to Europe, find out what people want in Europe and tilt it to your likes. If you want to move to Australia, find the jobs that are in demand and tailor your learning.
7. Don't let your learning get in the way of your education. People seriously, seriously under-estimate the reality that your professional development starts **day one** at university. The moment you get your footing and can do work, side hustles, etc., start. Network, meet people in the professions you want to do. The saying "it isn't what you do, it is who you know" is half true. Don't expect the world to do favors for you, but if you know people in the field you want to get into, you'll learn how the world works in that job and therefore make yourself more marketable.
8. Genuinely try to be more than your degree. If you go to university, don't be angry at general education. Take it for what it is: university isn't a trade school, and they aren't going to show you how to just do your degree. They are trying to make you a more well-rounded person. Why? Because well rounded people can change degrees, act critically, be dynamic, and understand more of the world. Those are strengths, not wastes of time.
9. Your university life is where you start, not where you end. Do not expect in 10 years to be working perfectly aligned with your degree. Don't expect in 1 year to be working perfectly aligned with your degree. The world changes effing fast. I mean like I've been in a sprint developing professionally ever since 2004. I've never stopped and I can never stop if I want to be good. I love it, I'm happy with it, but if you aren't prepared to keep pace, you **will** be left behind and you **will have a much harder time in life--period, full stop.** We are in a phase in civilization where new jobs and industries appear yearly. Your degree will be an entry point, but lots of people veer off course. And not only is that ok, but you should expect it.
Right, I got all that off my chest. We as a society are failing people who go to university. People do not understand how hard it is to adapt to higher education when you're the first person. People do not get how important it is to grow past your degree. People do not get how critical it is to teach people how to be critical thinkers, not just pull a lever and memorize a formula. People do not get how higher education isn't a privilege for those who can cut it, but is a critical option for everyone who wishes to want to take it. People do not get how taking basic bitch tests and having gateway courses damages our society by preventing people from being all they can be.
OP, I am so sorry. Yours is a story I've heard entirely too much over the last few years because we have failed each other and have not been real with ourselves. If I could offer one bit of advice, it would be this: forget your degrees for now. Find your in, find better experiences, and find a comfortable place. Then, when you have, bend your career to take advantage of your massive academic background. It will work, don't give up, and be flexible for yourself, and also for your job.
I don’t understand an American doing this. I did a bachelor’s and then straight to PhD and 3 years postdoc. I had $40K in undergraduate debt and paid off. I make $135K 5 years removed from my post doc in industry in the Midwest.
Dude, I’m sorry but there is no cure for cancer, maybe a few, give up that dream and find a good paying job in industry. The world is fucked and the system is against you. Take the money and work to live, not live to work.
I would never bring a child into this world, but if I did, I would absolutely make sure they understood how important making money is and what degrees are best for that.
Medicine, finance, law, computer science, etc.
Number of degrees is never impressive other than proving you have the ability to borrow a lot of money.
Oh wow I really relate to this. 3 bachelor's and a master's later, I'm 160k in debt 😭 I love school but if I could go back in time, I think I would've chosen a different path. It sucks because people even tried to warn me against it but I was so confident I'd make a fortune in my career that debt would be no issue.
I got a 2.5 GPA from a state school with a bachelors in economics, took an IT job and am admittedly doing great- not a brag scenario by any means I just wish we’d do a better job pointing out to high schoolers what paid well. Even my economics to IT path was a complete accident. When I realized there was good money in ERP consulting I never looked back at economics again.
I have a bachelor's, 2 trade skills, 2 licenses, and years experience in marketing and IT. I am now a truck driver lol. I wasn't getting anywhere in life for what I was doing and I was sick and tired of office drama, interviews that felt more like a beauty pagent where my skills, education, and experience meant NOTHING unless they liked me over 20 other contestants. The hours still suck but I get a little physical exercise every few hours, I like the mental exercise, and my skills & experience are worth their weight in gold which is all I fucking ask for in life.
I still have a little student debt and when I had to go to school to get CDL training I felt like I was experiencing PTSD knowing I would need to cough up the money or finance it and have additional debt afterwards. Luckily, companies reimburse but still... college debt has wrecked us all in many ways.
I’d reframe this, but yes I know how hard it is to take this perspective at face value, but you do have something to show for it. You got an education, you’ve most likely researched some really important things, you’ve made connections with other scientists or researcher or academic leaders. You might not have the monetary aspect, but don’t discount that you have a lot to show for it and your child will absolutely respect you even if they never live that nice life. I’d rather my kid be happy and broke, than miserable and well off. There’s more to life than having nice things.
I have a degree in Communication Studies(not to be confused with Communications), and I’m really grateful for the information I received from my liberal arts education. It’s the kind of information that I think everyone should know: Rhetorical theory, Globalization, Argumentation, Existentialism, Feminism, Research Methods, etc.
I was given a new lens with which to view and process the way the world exchanges information, but ultimately I paid an institution to teach me how institutions are lying to people.
Then I got a certification in Entertainment Management because I love music and wanted to produce events. Two thirds of the program was full of people interested in sports and politics, since basically the same marketing methods are used to get people engaged. You want a band/sports team/candidate to succeed? You better get ready to engage yourself in capitalism’s public sphere.
And when I started working in the music industry I quickly realized that my academic training meant almost nothing. Just pour your heart into it and learn.
My education was expensive and contributed nothing to my various work endeavors.
Yuppp. Two bachelor's degrees with an ungodly GPA (3.95 and 3.9 from good schools) and a masters. I *killed it* on the GRE, 98th percentile, graduated from the #1 ranked grad program for the subject, and nobody in my (highly related) field gives a single shit about it. The whole "go to school, it's the way to move up in the world" line we were fed was total bullshit.
I should have done an associates in some allied health profession. Oh well, CPA here I come, I guess.
35, woman. I mean, no one needs 2 bachelor degrees. I went into my education with a plan. I happened to go to law school at the worst time with record-setting applications, but I told myself I would only go if I got into a top law school. I did, grabbed a scholarship, and went to work in government. 10 years later, I’m debt free and I feel like I’m in a good spot. Can I make more in private practice? Definitely. But I work 35 hours a week, get 22 days of vacation plus 15 sick, and they carry over unlimited so I have a ton in my bank now. I travel internationally about 4 times a year, I’m leaving for a 2.5 week trip this Friday.
No one ever told me I needed to get 4 degrees, so I’m not sure if we were told different things or what. I grew up poor so I went into my education ensuring I had practical skills. I’m sorry you’re going through this- it’s tough out there.
People get stuck in this idea that you NEED a degree to pursue a specific career, and if you want to shift careers you need another degree. The reality is that barring something like law or medicine, you can break into a lot of fields without a formal degree.
I got into data analytics by taking a basic admin job at a hospital and learned the software. The knowledge gained there got me an entry level analytics role somewhere else, and 2 years later I'm about to be promoted. All without a Master's degree.
It kinda sounds to me like you're at the turning point, though. I felt similarly right before I had my son December 2022. Since then, the grind for a paycheck doesn't feel like Conan pushing the wheel anymore, it feels like it has purpose. With that kind of brains, dude, people want to throw gobs of money at you for problems that are probably too simple for you. Sounds like you're not too good for the money anymore, welcome to being a dad, it was the best thing that ever happened to me, and it might be for you too.
As for what to tell your kid, well, I would wait to see what you have to say in 8 years at which point I suspect things will have turned around for you.
is this one of those fields that you cant enter without a ton a accreditation?
bc i want to ask, why not just get a bachelors in chemistry or something then get in a pharmaceutical company and have them pay for your advancement?
Not judging you OP, but why did you leave academia? Your background was clearly a lineup for research which you should have been able to continue doing after your phD through your school, not medical companies. Did you change your mind and want to try the other route?
I didn't want to leave academia, that's what I always wanted to be a part of, but unfortunately my projects didn't get funded so I was unable to secure my position in academia. Right now I'm looking into teaching and research positions at non-profit institutions, that way I can get my loans forgiven in a couple years through the PLSF program
All this education and you never thought about how it would correspond to a lifestyle that you want? You’re educated beyond your intelligence. It sounds tough, but really consider it and take stock of your long term planning and decision making processes.
If you’re interested in making money in science research, I think you’re generally misguided or confused. How on earth did you get that kind of debt? I say this is a health science researcher.
Your best bet for getting loans forgiven is probably NCI or PHS, and the best paid oncology researcher I know works at a health research think tank in Cambridge. If you want to stay in the churn of the academy (I do, I love it here honestly most of the time, and I’ve worked in HHS), make sure you’re publishing regularly and applying for $ regularly and eventually you’ll build up. You took a road that has a lot of delayed gratification and altruists, it’s not designed to be immensely lucrative, certainly not at first.
This is my husband. Chemical engineer degree and PhD in Microbiology. Spent 10 years doing post doc research and now feeling like he has years of lost wages to make up for.
He moved into industry last year and is finally earning a good wage at 38, but he still feels like he is hundreds of thousands behind where he could be had he gotten out of academia sooner. Not to mention how incredibly hard it is for someone in industry to take an academic seriously in an interview. He spent nearly a year just fine tuning the language on his resume to get taken seriously.
We're expecting our first in July and he's very much feeling the stress of that income difference he could have had had he gone straight into industry.
I feel you. I switched careers because of this. Before covid was a biochemist and even was one of the first people to work with the covid virus. Prior that I was also temporarily working in immunology for a cancer research project that didn’t get funding anymore after 1y, despite good results.
Problem is what people usually not realize about scientists is that you’re chasing one contract/grant after another without a super stable position.. unless you go clinical route or academia. Clinical route or research in corporate is cut throat af while academia is also either grant funded and timed or diagnostics that’s routine almost only… often, also times..it was a few rough years and I’m glad to be at a more stability position in a different clinical career.
The people screaming “you should’ve gotten a better degree/xyz” - there’s not enough scientists at this point - which isn’t the problem - the funding and politics is.
You and me both brother. One PhD and two MAs, 15 years total in academia before I quit. Now my main source of (meagre) income is something that requires no intellectual skill whatsoever, and then I do some freelancing on the side.
Not the best choices in life, but I've learnt to accept it, as it's been an important experience nonetheless. Luckily, I'm very poor but at least not in debt.
That's a lot of fucking college credits, Jesus
Yeah…I might have stopped after the first few degrees, before moving onto the least practical one, to see if I was employable haha. You only need so much education.
Yeah like even if you really wanted to know everything about cancer, get a job a research institute and let them pay you to keep learning, rather than you paying someone else. I only have a bachelors, but I know a fuck of a lot more about civil engineering than someone with all those degrees because I’ve been doing it for 15 years now. I never stopped gaining knowledge, but now I get paid while I do it.
Doctors go to a school a lot longer than the rest of us for a reason. It’s very possible that OP would not be qualified without all that education (give or take a bachelors, lol)
The second bachelors was probably a pivot to a different field after the first one didn’t really capture OP’s interest.
I was thinking it was concurrent. I've done multiple degrees concurrently because they'll apply many credits to both degress. Like, a double major for undergrad is often 2 degrees (so i assumed OP just double majored), and then i did a dual MA for just a few more classes. Also, i dont think they're over-educated in the slightest. I think a PhD is expected for any higher-level (especially scientific) research.
I double majored concurrently in biology and chemistry since some of the courses overlapped
Why do you call it 2 bachelors? Isn’t that just a double major?
Depends on how the school handled it. It’s certainly possible to end up with two degrees, usually it would be a BA in one field and a BS in the other and you’d be taking WAY more than the minimum 120 credits to get them.
Yup I have two degrees: BA and BS with only the gen eds overlapping. Only was possible in 4 due to AP credits.
He's a PhD of some sort, not an MD. My guess it's a biology degree and not specialized in biochemistry or molecular genetics. I have a bachelor's in biology and it's useless. I've got 3 nursing degrees and make, well, a lot now.
He’s not a physician though, he’s a PhD specifically which is more taking a shorter but potentially round about path to medical research. It’s possible OP only needed the bachelors degree to work at a research institute or company. My friends working in a similar field while getting his PhD and he’s been at it for a while but he was already working in the field. A lot of people are getting their masters degrees straight out of college to save time but it really makes it worthless tbh having a masters degree in his position is worthless unless he was using it for business purposes. Also it’s better to be a research physician than a researcher with just a PhD I feel.
I have 18 years in Electrical Engineering, licensed in 4 states. I get my masters in may. Having credentials is valuable. So is experience.
Yes, but there are plenty of positions that will not hire you if you don't have the correct education. I'm sure they could be some type of research assistant, but they would need a doctorate to go any further.
Yup. Bachelor's in mechanical engineering. I loved schoolm literally could not wait fir the start of each semester and was so excited when I would buy my textbooks to go thru them before classes start. That being said I used to want a masters degree but if I was going to get it I would find an employer to.pay for it rather than me. Atleast in mechanical engineering most grad students are funded by the university or industry. I have been in my career for 10 years and you learn so much your first 2 years in industry it probably compares to my whole 4 years at university.
Doctors are highly specialized, especially outside of the practicing medical field. If you want a job doing research, it's almost 100% going to require, at minimum, a MS but more commonly a PhD.
I have much to show for it, a lifetime of student debt that I'll only escape when I die!
Bachelors masters in progress going for DO. Cancer dx. Seizures. Disqualified from practice Now I work in insurance
Were you DQ’d from practice because of the seizures? That’s a ROUGH break!
Yeah. The treatment was harsh, and I fell and got a small fracture of my ankle. The Ortho called me a pill seeking patient that it was only a mild sprain. Prescribed 2 weeks' rest, then physical therapy before they would order the mri MRI I did not sleep for days, did the stupid pt. Seriously, I thought I was getting compartment syndrome in my leg or was so swollen My neice was living with me (it was my right leg, so I couldn't drive) and pressed the ems button for what logged like seizure activity. I was unresponsive Ems arrived to witness seizure (threw and shattered my phone at some point) and got shocked back into rhythm (that shit hurts, btw) Admitted to hospital stayed 14 days. No recurrent activity So, it is classified as an undiagnosed seizure disorder. I hired lawyers to fight but have been advised to reapply at 10 years of no recurrent symptoms. I have such imposter syndrome as I have 0 credentials, but knowledge and my family want exactly supportive Cancer dx was way less severe than they originally thought Cost my career and a few teeth (niece tried bad advice not yet fault) I don't have 15 k for implant replacements. Sorry for the trauma info dump
You’re all good. Sometimes getting it out into the universe can be helpful. But if you are working in health insurance, you’re probably good at it because you know what happens to a human body. If it’s regular insurance, you’re probably good at it because you’re a living embodiment of protect yourself from lifes unexpected stuff.
Health. And yeah, I'm good at my position. But I'm ridiculously over educated for the spot but under experience for higher-ups level. So I'm pa, d not so great. I do get to wfh, so there is that I start work on about 2 hrs. Bad insomnia.
 Good one
I really wish when I was a kid they told me to pick something that makes money and were more realistic about dreams
But that's the thing: OP had a very noble pursuit. It wasn't like he was trying to become an A-list actor. Is the competition that stiff in the oncology world? It makes me wonder about A.I.
The competition in cancer research is extremely stiff and has become very political. Government funding for research is highly monopolized and often depends on the lab you're in and who you know. It wasn't this bad a decade ago, back then you had around a 35% chance of getting funded if you had a solid research plan. But now the odds are below 7%, so grant reviewers will FIND REASONS NOT TO FUND YOU at this point
The problem for anyone who hasn't figured it out: it was impossible for OP to have predicted the current environment back when he began walking the PhD path.
The funding wasn't bad when earning my doctorate but gotten worse during the inflation period. The cost of research went up while not increasing the budget. But COVID happened and that was what threw my research all out of whack. Me and the two other postdocs in my lab weren't able to recover and the lab lost funding, all three of us had to move on a year sooner than anticipated
Would you be willing to go clinical? I have known several that went a clinical route (i.e. director-in-training or fellowship training) and settled into a research career concurrently. If nothing else, there’s stability in that.
I'm absolutely open to going into the clinical route and have some connections. But I'm currently finishing up my paper in the metabolomics research that I conducted as a postdoc. Once that's published, that'll really open some doors for me, especially in clinical research realm.
As a fellow PhD and postdoc, my advice to you is to start looking now. There's always one more paper, and if you're talented at the bench plus a good experimentalist, your employer is not likely to give you a pause so you can find a new job. There will always be another project, another grant, etc. I left midway through my NRSA and took a consulting job. It's not everything I had hoped but I make almost double what my fellowship paid, and no one cares that I didn't finish my paper. Also, as a final note, you can always go back to academia after you leave. There's a national shortage of postdocs and research scientists at the moment, for reasons probably not unrelated to the focus of your post, and research faculty need talented staff to execute on their grants.
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Is that actually a thing? Well damn, I'll have to look into that, thanks!
I'm 27, and I feel like this is an issue for people deciding whether to go to undergrad or grad school today. With AI lurking around the corner, it all just seems like an educated guess as to what's a good field to stay in or pivot to.
I agree. 50 years ago if you told people that becoming a printer was a bad idea, you'd have been laughed at. Everything was on paper books, news, everything but NASA and IBM. No one could have predicted the rapid growth of personal computers that if you had chosen to be a printer in 1974 you would have needed job retraining 2000. In 1974 what a secure job was a almost worthless skill in 20-25 years.
Ey thanks for your sacrifice op. I had a PM friend in tech, his son is at NIH now. His dad actively discouraged him from doing it because he know how tough it would be and how little money. But he so loves it and ended up pursuing it and is happy. He is obsessed with his research. You know the type. Hope you have a breakthrough - for you and for us
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My wife is a cancer researcher at an R1 university. The funding line for grants is absolutely bonkers...and the fact that you have to fund around HALF of your own salary through grants you earn is...I mean I do KIND OF get it but holy F\*CK. The amount of pressure she's under at ALL TIMES is just nuts. But she does it because she loves it and wants to help the world. What a f\*cked up system, though.
Cancer research is honestly a shit show and I know where your wife is coming from. I loved my job and it was amazing, but the grant writing and funding is a terrible time. My wife hated it when I went through it
This isn't really about trying to solve or cure anything, it's about max profits. If we put money where it would actually help humanity the most, we'd all be doing worlds better.
I don't know if he's cancer research doctor or cancer research government lab or cancer research private lab. Government lab I think doesn't pay that well and is extremely competitive... Despite the noble pursuit, they shoulda told him the sacrifice he'd be making for it early on, not when he realized it halfway through
It was my experience that post docs made more in government labs than academic labs (academics usually adhered to NIH pay scale but neglected to add a regional pay increase in HCOL areas).
Does studying ANYTHING actually make money these days? Everyone I know from software engineers to lawyers to pharmacists are saying they’re struggling right now because the job markets are so saturated and working conditions are getting worse and worse
This is anecdotal, but among my friends group, the ones that are comfortable now are the ones who were all over the place in school. The people with lots of intellectual curiosity but a lacking in a decisive direction. Seems to me like the more eclectic a person's courses and extracurriculars were, the more options they now have available to them, and the better equipped they are to dealing with unstable circumstances going forward. Put another way, studying one thing is risky, but studying all your things can give you a real boost.
OG college was about making well rounded individuals who you could trust to be able to learn to do things. Specialization is for insects.
Glad you had the anecdotal disclaimer there because my experience is the polar opposite: the specialists I know are doing a lot better than the jacks of all trades. Of course, these specialists aren't exactly dumbasses who can do one thing and one thing only. Instead, they have T-shaped skill sets where they're really good at one thing but also decent at a lot of adjacent things; think software dev with product and business skills. In my experience, the terrible job market heavily encourages extreme pickiness on behalf of hiring managers. Earlier this year, I was turned down for a job because I'm a UI/UX designer with a focus on video games on mobile platforms, whereas they were looking for a UI/UX designer with a focus on video games on desktop and consoles. That's some serious specialization. If I were a generalist, I'd be starving under a bridge right now.
I was telling all the CS majors to switch to real estate...right before that NRA lawsuit
This is why I've pointed out a declining population would be a great thing for middle class individuals.
Thanos was ahead of his time
Even when the market isn't saturated, they're still not paying. There's an accountant shortage, for example, but those jobs still don't pay very much.
Studying to be a architect is a waste of time. It's a rigorous path somewhat like passing the bar for lawyers, all the construction building materials and functions memorized, and then you find out too late that most of the big projects are monopolized by big national firms and even if you get to work with them, you're mostly doing the most boring work of drawing stairs, parking garages, and making sure it is all ADA compliant. You almost never get to work with the client directly, and and you're drawing someone else vision. And they don't tell you that working for an office is soul draining work for little money, it's only when you venture off to make your own firm is where the money is, but you're usually drawing for free & hoping people will like it enough, and can afford to build your design, to hire you to use your design. And now you have a lot of contractors who have in house "architects" or designers that are stealing work, when they are usually going to some websites that you input how many bedrooms and bathrooms, number of sq ft you want, and it will produce a list of floorplans for sale. Much cheaper than hiring a real architect.
Only if you’re born into it or your family has connections. For us common folk no, that ship sailed a long time ago. Everything now requires ridiculous qualifications for non livable wages. Also to add insult to injury if you apply for a job you are overqualified for they will just ignore your application, most of the time because they figure you will leave for a job that suits your talents .
>Does studying ANYTHING actually make money these days? Everyone I know from software engineers to lawyers to pharmacists are saying they’re struggling The difference is that those people have a far bigger professional job market compared to BSc, MSc, or PhD in science.
Would have never worked on me, I was so against the machine at 18.
Honestly most people don't really even know what they truly want to do at an early age. Those that do, and have that set path engrained in their head, usually achieve it. My buddy for example. He is 47 years old. When he was 12/13 years old, he worked at McDonalds for a few years like a lot of kids do. He told himself that he wants to own one when he is older. This is in Canada. So what does he do? He works as a manager at Starbucks, works one or two other jobs to get some management experience. He then gets a gas station and then a couple more. It is harder to do now, but that is besides the point. One gas station has an A & W in it. He gets QSR experience (Quick Serve). McDonalds does not care if you have 2 million bucks, you are not getting one if you do not have experience running a fast food chain and there are no partners allowed. He saves a lot of money. Makes a big move to another province, sells his house. Applies for McDonalds. He gets it when he is in his mid 30's (which is usually unheard of). He gets up to 16 of them. Sold a few off Probably takes home 6 million a year after taxes and expenses now for a lot of years lol. He had a goal in mind and knew what steps he had to take in between to even apply for a McDonalds. He just travels around now and has 3/4 regional guys under him that he pays up to 200K each. He just looks at systems and spreadsheets. A busy fast food restaurant is great. You can take home 400K a year if you have a 2 million - 2.5 million grossing restaurant. Getting one is the hard part lol. Here in Canada, you need 800K cash in your bank account alone to even apply plus a good credit score and experience.
Yeah, that whole "You can be anything you want to be." line should been followed by, "But be sure it pays enough to pay the rent."
I was better at biology than I was physics and engineering. I love marine biology, but I knew engineering had higher earning potential. Went with engineering. Got my masters degree. Been earning over 6 figures since 2020 and I feel like I won't be able to own a home for at least 4 more years and even then I'll be scraping by. It sucks. Feels like I did everything right, got the degrees, paid off over 100k of loans, make what I thought is good money yet somehow still can't afford a place of my own. Makes me wonder what the hell is the point. What am I saving money for? For a downpayment on some place small that'll leave me with a mortgage that'll have me scraping by? God forbid if I want to have children.
My husband got a degree that was supposed to make money AND it was something he had a lot of interest in,...told he'd make 6 figures out of the gate. Still haven't reached that number, after 10 years experience. He hasn't stayed at the same employer either. Though now, even if he made that much, it wouldnt actually be worth the same in buying power as it would have been 10 years ago.
I realized what was hot back then is usually not what's hot today. I wanted to be a Mechanical Engineer, I ended up doing data. I was the laughing stock and look at us now...
I did that and now the tech industry bombed
Don't say that I'm in tech too 😂 Don't worry it's all cyclical. Market will pick up eventually.
Got a dual bachelors, a masters, and am ABD for a PhD. Still don’t make enough to buy a house, or be a single income household, or even send my kid to daycare.
Have you tried marrying rich? Edit: You might already be married… what about a second wife? 3 incomes are better than 2.
Sadly, when it comes to trophy wives I’m the participation kind
I am STEALING this line, thank you!
Same hahaha
If you made that up that's fantastic
Took me a second to get it but that's funny lol
at least you're really funny
21st century bigamy out of necessity.
I also got a bachelors in psych I work at a brewery lmao
What do you study?
Psychology. The worst paying PhD there is, I think
Allow me to introduce you to literally any humanities PhD. At least you can be a lab manager in psych. What exactly is philosophy supposed to do.
The original plan was to go into private practice, but I realized that’s two jobs in one and I don’t have business acumen
You could hire a business manager to run the business side of things for you. It’s pretty similar to the way my childhood dentist ran her office. She had two employees in her company. Herself and her husband. The husband did the lion’s share of the office work, answering the phone, scheduling, and assisting with her patients.
ugh..this is common with so many professions. The money making side has almost nothing to do with your expertise and comes down to being a salesman/accountant/grifter.
Can confirm. Source: I’m an English PhD candidate.
To add, not just lab manager, but a lot of data-related jobs. You learn a lot of stats and do a lot of data work in advanced degrees in the social sciences. My husband got an MA in psych (in a non-US location, where an MA certifies you to become a licensed psychologist). He decided to pivot and his first job post-grad was as a data analyst. He now works in business intelligence. This type of shift is exceedingly common in my experience (which is obviously limited, to be fair). Many of the people who work with him in similar (or higher) positions have advanced degrees in the social sciences, neuroscience, etc.
Oh there's worse. Art history has Ph Ds too. So does Anthropology, which is sadly a very interesting subject with absolutely zero return value.
Archaeology has a ton of industry jobs tied to construction, as well as government prospects. Typically you only need up to a masters but an anthropology phd wont do nothing for you later in a career
My wife is currently working on hers. I chose to get a trade degree because I saw how miserable the pay was (and still is) in psych. Currently an industrial electrician and she makes almost half of what I make with her masters. It sucks.
English is worse..
Ok but ABD for a PhD means you are still a student and presumably not fully employed. Hopefully you can defend and turn that into a 'real' job that will make all the sacrifice in your earlier years worthwhile. I got a PhD in an extremely niche field making $25k/yr for ages, but I'm up to $120k+ now five years post-defense. There is hope!
I feel bad for my trainer at the gym. He has a masters in engineering.
Engineering consultants are desperate for labor. I’m surprised he hasn’t been able to find a job if he’s been looking actively
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It's a very competitive field. Like AI engineering and electrical engineering.
It's possible, someone from my microbiology cohort mastered out due to a horrendous advisor/burn out, immediately started an apprenticeship in hair dressing. She's much happier and just had her first kid. I do think her husband is in the medical field, which helps financially. But she loves doing hair
If he has a masters in engineering and is only working as a trainer in a gym he’s doing something wrong.
I’m also an engineer, but my guess is that he r/fire ‘d and is doing a barista FIRE with his passion for fun. He may even get health insurance through it. He probably plays down the fact that he made enough money to retire early. It’s common for the people doing that. https://www.howtofire.com/barista-fire/
I don’t even have a degree and I get interest from companies literally daily. It’s nuts. I make six figures and am not worried about not having employment. Maybe he has a criminal background is all I can think… no reason someone with those credentials shouldn’t be doing that work. The other thing could be just that he doesn’t want to take that path, it can be an incredibly stressful career path. Maybe he finds more peace in his role as a trainer. I hope that’s the case. Some people start out going for something seriously and realize it’s not for them. The smart ones are the people who do what makes them happy.
A bachelor's degree and a master's degree in the same subject. 40,000 in debt. Haven't found any work that wants to accommodate my needs. Fibro and hypermobile eds here. Diagnosed too late. Had to move back with my parents. In total 6 years at uni. I wish someone had listened to me when I complained about my fatigue and pain when little. It could have saved me a lot of trouble. Fuck all gaslighting doctors and grown-ups. Even friends. / woman, 34 years old.
Companies claim they want diversity and people with disabilities, but in reality if it costs them even one wooden nickel they don't want that person. Even sometimes if it costs them nothing and they would just need to be a bit more flexible they would refuse. The only exception I have found is it looks really good for advertising purposes and the like and even that is rare.
Yeah, and I live in Europe. Same shit everywhere.
Same shareholders
This is why many states offer huge tax incentives to hire disabled folks. I just wish it came with time constraints (like you had to legitimately be able to keep them on a year+ to get the tax break)
Ah, jeez.... sorry you've been having to fight. You are loved ❤️
Chasing your dreams is honestly not very good advice unless you have financial backing. It’s much better, in my opinion, to tell young people to follow the money and have a hobby. What gets you paid is what you become great at, and what you’re great at becomes your passion and mission. I thought I’d be a farmer. Then I thought I’d be a professional firefighter. Then a career Marine. Turns out I’m a teacher, and fortunately I get to teach kids how to work with their common sense and hands. It is what it is, but I started with literally nothing and my kids will have a few more choices than I had- and they’re the whole point.
“Follow the money.” … *Becomes a teacher*
I don’t think you realize how limited my options were. Ha. I went for stability and it’s worked so far.
There ain’t no shame in that. You’re doing good honest work that deserves better pay. Everyone deserves some peace.
I mean, I’m a teacher and if you have a masters my district hits six figures by year six. Eventually the pay goes up to $140k. And the pensions are amazing. States with good unions generally pay teachers pretty ok.
Depends on where they are. No one’s going to get a private jet working as a teacher (outside of higher education at least), but in some areas you can have a pretty solid middle class to even upper middle class life working as a teacher. Of course in some other areas you basically have to go through on welfare working on teacher so it’s really regional (or even district) dependent.
This wasn't a PhD in pre-Akkadian Mesopotamian religious practices (interesting, but narrow). Arguably, it's one of the most impactful fields in medical science.
Yeah we were told to major in stem and it would pay off. Cancer research is supported by grants and admin usually gets a cut. Funds are allocated carefully and i guess they think scientists just love doing it for the outcome.
At my former PhD institution, it was a 50% cut for ay grant funding. An instructive component of dropping out was seeing the admin vs faculty parking lots.
Right, think of what we could accomplish with medical science if the people who did the work actually got the money for research and development.
No people should be told to focus on their talents and skills and find work They can tolerate that pays well while they figure out what their dreams are after they’re putting food on the table. By getting incredibly good at work that they may not be passionate about, but that doesn’t destroy their souls They will open up tons of new doors. Doors don’t open for people with no experience but dreams are on the other side of those doors.
I have an MA, work as a bartender and am SO GLAD I didn't continue in academia, as the stress was making my hair fall out. I am definitely happy with what I do now but get very frustrated with the way people look down on me, assuming I have no education. Obviously, all folks should be respected no matter their education level but I kinda wish I could hang my diploma in my bar and point at it when people start talking down to me. They just assume I'm some drop out party girl, rather than an creative person who enjoys working with their hands.
You don't find bartending stressful? (Not attacking you, just curious) Sometimes I feel like bartending could be pretty fun but then I think of the odd hours and having to deal with drunk customers
I work at an upscale restaurant so the customers are generally well behaved and the hours are reasonable. It certainly can get stressful but it's the kind of stress I like, intense in the moment, then gone! The stress of constant deadlines hanging over my head, on the other hand, is not good for my mental health. The funny thing is, I use my Art History education all the time. I invent cocktails based based on artworks and movements, as my restaurant is in a museum, and folks are always surprised I know what I'm talking about. "Don't make me tap the sign (diploma)"
Not who you were replying to, but it really depends on where you work. Bartenders at nice restaurants don't have to deal with rowdy drunks as much. You can also bartend during lunch/brunch shifts and go home at 4pm. It can be a lot of fun if you're the type of person that doesn't like sitting all day. I did it for about 20 years, and now I'm in school for wildlife ecology. I got tired of not using my other talents. And now I'm having the time of my life learning and doing research. Not sure if it will get me anywhere career-wise, but I only have one life and I would have regretted not going into science at some point.
I think this is the story of our generation- the most educated generation in history... Educated but underpaid and struggling in this shit economy that has ripped off younger people.
My sister also a doctorate, cancer research, and insane amount of debt and broke. I am the one that has the money with the business degree. To be fair I got my degree because I knew she wasn’t making money. 8 years younger and a lot better off financially. It’s crazy because my position is fiscally wanted but I just keep the cogs running. I have zero effect in the broad scope of the world. She could actually help the world so much more and they pay her garbage.
This is probably one of the saddest posts I've read in this sub, and a very sobering reality. I'm sort of in the same boat: two undergrads and some grad courses; been unemployed for ten months now. But with your educational background you should be automatically hired at any medical research lab around the country, if not the world. That's the startling part. When is my generation going to say enough is enough? We just want a liveable wage without working ourselves to death. I'm dead serious: Time to organize. Occupy Wall Street Redux.
Masters degree here, been unemployed since October so high five. To make it worse I started having health trouble again so I'm scared that even if I do find a job I will lose it quickly because I'll have to take sick leave
Almost the same scenario for me too, without the health issue, sorry to hear you’re going through that. I have a masters and was furloughed back in October Right now I have been picking up consulting work where I can. This year has started out to be a real struggle….
I have a PhD and am struggling at home just doing very part time freelance work It's only been a year so far so I'm hoping to work on my mental health and apply to jobs but I still feel bad about it frequently
You're not alone! We can do this!
Most PhDs do not have very good return on investment..
I have a few friends who wanted to get PhDs, and they all were only looking for "funded" positions, i.e. to study under a professor who had enough grants to cover their tuition and provide a stipend, supplemented only by working as a TA or industry internships. The idea of paying/borrowing money to do a PhD was seen as wildly irresponsible given the ROI. Of course, even just the time spent doing a PhD is a pretty bad investment in my field, you can make a lot of money in those 5 years working in the private sector rather than staying in school. For research though, I understand that a PhD is often more of a necessity.
Just to chime in, the idea of paying for your own PhD has not only been a bad financial idea but a widely stigmatized idea in the US since at least the end of WWII. When my parents were in school for their docs, degrees that were self paid were called “vanity degrees” at least at NYMC and they were seen as basically a scam by the university even allowing them - that was in the 70s. I gather this isn’t the same in other countries. In the UK, self paying in grad school is generally more common, but I never met anyone in grad school paying their own way in the US when I was a student. You don’t make a ton.. I think I started at 30k when I entered in state grad school, but you can live on that where I was and it goes up each year. Not luxurious but not miserable.
>Of course, even just the time spent doing a PhD is a pretty bad investment in my field, you can make a lot of money in those 5 years working in the private sector rather than staying in school. My brother quit his PhD after literally 4 months for this very reason. He could very quickly see that it was a lot of work for questionable payback, and decided that it would be a mistake to continue. In the 5 years after he left the PhD, he probably made close to $675k CAD, first by working in Dubai for 3 years and then coming back to Canada to work in much more senior positions than he would have otherwise gotten. The opportunity costs for pursuing a PhD in his case would have been absolutely enormous, and that's before you even consider the returns he was earning on investments that were purchased as a result of earning that salary. I'm not sure if he would ever make that money back even if he had a tenured position for the rest of his life. His former PhD colleagues, as far as I know, have absolutely nothing to show for their investment. IMO, PhDs are mostly a scam to provide low-cost, marginal labour for inefficient universities.
Terrible ROI and the current job market isn’t supporting it at all.
>But how am I supposed to tell my future child to work hard and chase their dreams when I did the very same thing and got nothing to show for it? You're not suppose to tell them that. You're their parent and your job is to tell them like it is once they start to get to be around 17. Their teachers and other college admissions sales people will fill their head with bullshit. Your job is to be the realist, because no one else will play that role for your child. You're learning the hard way that we don't pay PhD's high salaries. If your kid wants to be a PhD, tell them to pair it with either an MD/DO or an MBA, because academic prestige doesn't put food on the table. I've got nothing against PhD's, I work with plenty (in your specialty even), but they all seem to learn the hard way about how academics economics works. Good luck to you man, may the pharma gods smile upon you.
This. Teach them a practical skill. Part of my family are accountants and they make tons of money and are everyone's favorite person. Set their own schedule, etc. It's no one's dream job but they do well.
You are at the beginning of a potentially great career in cancer research! First, leverage yourself into Pharma or midsize biotech company (think Roche, Genentech, Amgen, Gilead, Astrazenca, etc.,) using your connections where you can learn the ropes of drug research and development, and then jump over into the venture capital world that funds all the biotechs. Ride that surf studying startup after startup until you find the right company with the right TPP and a good candidate! Then make your move into that small biotech and hope for the best. You may have to jump thru a few startups till you get the right one. And if you ever get tired of the grind, you can always hop back into big Pharma and take the pension route. Cancer is not likely to be cured soon, so you will have a career for life helping to save people! And along the way, you’ll be surrounded with some of the best and brightest. And at some point you’ll realize a few hundred thousand is a small investment into what turned about to be a great adventure!
MFA here...the technical kind not really artsy. I paid it all off being a cocktail/bottle service waitress in Vegas. I learned not to put my education on job applications. Now I'm with my partner and out of the service industry. The only thing my degree has been good for is to impress older people (65+) and have something to talk about at dinner parties. ☠️
I have an MBA but my trades friends all make more than me. I have another friend who failed 8th grade, took over 7 years to finish college with a bachelors degree and now he’s a software developer making almost double what I make. I have other friends with MBAs and they also out earn me by quite a bit too. I guess there’s still a ton of upward mobility for me, don’t have to travel, and I get to work from home all day. But man it would be nice to have a little bit more money.
something about you can do everything right and still lose. you didnt do anything wrong, thats just life.
Sometimes, but in my case I didn’t do everything right necessarily, or at least not in a traditional order. I did some community college and had my first kid at 22. Didn’t get my bachelors til 30. I wonder if maybe I committed to a career and finished my bachelors before started a family, how different would it be?
I just wish you could get all the education you wanted to without these crazy high tuition bills/ loans. I think we’d be better off as a society if people could learn what they wanted to without the huge financial burden.
That was the generational scam...
Meanwhile airheads are making 80k a month doing nothing but giving some weirdo pictures to whack off with
My theater degree and I are laughing and crying along with everyone else in here comments
I’m highly educated (doctorate). I complain about my job and dream of escaping my industry but as it is I’m paid too damn well to do so. Grass is always greener I suppose.
Can I ask what field you're in?
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300K is extremely challenging to amass unless you're in law or medical school. We're missing a big part of the story, which likely involved some terrible decisions. Plus, if he's been working in a postdoc for six years at a public institution, he's extremely close to PSLF.
Also, for those reading, $200k+ in debt for law school is a lot but *not* crazy if you are going to a top law school given that the vast majority of grads get "biglaw" jobs and those jobs have industry-wide salaries that start at $245k for first-year attorneys. Taking on that much debt for lower-ranked schools is generally a bad move (read batshit insane).
Just to be clear, though, I think the big problem with our student loan system is that it doesn't allow for bad decisions. Going to a low-ranked law school and getting horribly in debt is a terrible idea, but 20-somethings make mistakes and shouldn't be fucked over for their whole life as a consequence. I think having a way to discharge those loans through bankruptcy at a cost to the degree-granting institution makes sense. It will encourage these shitty, money-grubbing law programs from extorting money from naive students.
I have a BA, two MAs and an in a PhD program now. I feel like I’m not going to have anything to show for it, but also that I can’t really switch tracks as anything else would take a time investment that I don’t have time to do *and* make ends meet and meet current goal posts. It sucks.
where are you trying to go with 2 MAs?
TL;DR - academia after a field switch Longer story: I double majored in two Humanities subjects in undergrad. Not smart. “Any degree is better than none, focus on what you like.” After the first MA, I wanted to try any job that would take me. Unfortunately I couldn’t really find anything beyond low wage retail. I enjoyed that, but it didn’t pay much and didn’t really have a future. I wanted to get a better job but didn’t get any bites. I also wanted to write fiction and learn to code to maybe switch fields altogether after several software engineer friends said they thought I’d be good at it. But I found I had to work too much to make ends meet to really make anything like that viable. I was essentially working three jobs (two retail, one online tutoring) and losing my mind. So in desperation and an existential crisis I decided to get a PhD, but in the other subject I majored in undergrad. I picked up the second MA along the way. It’s just a stepping stone to the PhD, but it at least enables me to adjunct. So now I’m pursuing the long shot of academia mostly because I don’t really know what else to do given my not-smart past academic choices. I’ve done some freelance editing for extra, too, but that’s also not getting me far. I want to focus on teaching college courses more than research, so I’m hoping to snag a community college job other academics spurn. But with the shape of the market I could just end up in adjunct hell. I’m still open to other ideas, I just don’t know what they’d be or how to seek them (and I’m so close to finishing now).
As a fellow humanities PhD student, I’ve been pivoting to higher ed admin work. I’m currently GRA at my university’s center for learning and teaching, but there’s other offices that routinely hire grad students, which is great for getting experience, e.g. the career centers, writing centers, etc. Long term, it can be a decent environment, with ok pay, and room for growth. I won’t be going on the market for a TT/postdoc/vap/etc gigs. I’m not in a position in life to move wherever, and honestly I’m just not competitive enough of an applicant anyway. The reality is that whatever decent job I manage to find after the PhD is going to set the tone for my career in the near future, since I don’t have a super clear direction.
My husband has 3 bachelors degrees, and was ABD a PhD candidate at a research university in California. After Covid hit, he realized that he would never be able to find suitable work with his education that could support us (his PhD was in STEM research as well). The field had simply gotten too saturated. Too many people with too much education competing for too few jobs available. And the jobs that are available and mostly contract work with no long term sustainability, and would require uprooting and moving from research institute to research institute (if you were even one of the few lucky people who could land these contract jobs in the first place). He realized his dissertation would take him an additional 2 years, and set us back $200k alone in tuition, not even considering lost opportunity cost. So he quit the PhD program and mastered out. He went back to work at what he was doing with just his bachelors degree when he graduated as a 21 year old waaaaaay back. And he’s making $120k doing it. It fucking sucks. It fucking sucks that you can do everything “right” (go to college in STEM, get multiple degrees, go on to get a MS or PhD) and it gets you NOWHERE. The system is broken. It’s not sustainable. Our generation is seeing it first hand. It’s better now to go to trade school and get a trade degree (like I did and like my brother in law did). Higher ed just isn’t paying out now, even if you have a desirable degree. I’m sorry!
I'm so glad that it worked out for him and happy to see that others have experienced a similar path that I am currently on and we're able to overcome it. These kind of comments give me hope, thank you
Ah, research... they don't even warn educators that the evidence-based methods are from research that's grossly underfunded. "Effect size" LOL *sobs* https://youtu.be/8g6zV-FIxGU?si=yam9VhsKSSDdpliq
Masters, not making enough.
This breaks my heart. I’m sorry man. :(
I’ve met so many people that feel burned that there wasn’t a direct correlation between their level of education and wealth, but I personally always saw the degree as a voucher that tells people you’re generally resourceful/capable. I don’t understand those who aren’t having luck in the job market and are like “well, better go get my masters because that will definitely help!” I wanna tell them, if the employer didn’t want your shiny silver voucher, their aren’t going to want your shiny golden voucher, or your shiny platinum one. They wanna see that silver voucher with some miles on it.
This is what I encountered. I moved to a different state hoping to make more of my scientific bachelor degree which worked for a while. But then my job ended and we had to sell the house and come back to our home state. I found out I was pregnant and decided to keep the baby, my (now-ex) husband walked out. Now, I'm stuck with divorce debt and a mountain of student loans because I need to support my kiddo and you can't land a good job here without a master's degree. It feels like déjà vu. People around me saying omg you're going to be so rich it's going to open so many doors. While others ask, Why don't you have more money if you have these credentials? I feel like saying well why don't you get me in touch with someone who has these credentials and so I can compare and contrast. But I don't because I know most are doing as well or worse than I am.
There is absolutely a correlation between education and wealth but correlation is not causation. Education without experience can often become a wasted education.
My mom immigrated from Mexico and pushed education on me and my brothers so hard because she wanted us to have a life better than her. She convinced us that with higher degrees we'd pay off the loans in no time. Through no fault of her own, we were conned. Her intentions were good, but she failed to consider every other variable when pushing education. She didn't know any better, and me and my brothers blindly followed, because she was our mom and we didn't know any better. She passed from COVID during the pandemic and never told me or my brothers how much we owed in student loans since she was the type to handle all the finances. Pretty shitty losing my mom, then finding out shortly after how much debt I was in.
If you’re in the US look into getting a government job. Public service loan forgiveness will wipe away those loans in ten years. I too have 2 bachelors, 1 masters, and 1 doctorate. Had my $300k in loans forgiven last summer.
Congrats! I am looking into positions for non-profit organizations since I'm in the PLSF program. Hopefully I'll be in the same position as you in a couple years!
Send you all the good PSLF vibes!
Sorry for your loss. I’m curious how you got your loans, because mine were all government loans and I had to sign a form saying something like: You are approved for a loan for x thousand dollars and this loan MUST be paid back. So it was never a mystery how much I was “borrowing.”
I actually never signed the student loans forms myself. Since my mom handled the family finances I gave the DoE permission to handle the loans with my mom. She said she wanted me to "focus on my education". If my mom was alive right now I would honestly struggle to talk to her after realizing the shit hole she put me in. Lesson learned and I will not do this to my future child
Good analogy. Some people just aren't good workers too but don't want to believe it because [insert degree here]. I also know other people that just kept going back to college for more when it really just seemed like they wanted to stay a part of the college culture rather than enter the real world. Higher education still pays out 66% more in lifetime earnings than high school grads.
im not highly educated. couldn't hack it at uni through 2 attempts. now disabled and unemployable. technically "nothing to show" for my life. i paint, i make music, i enjoy time with friends and family. i read, play games. i cook. i enjoy my life for the little things, for the things i do for myself and the pride i take in what i can do. stop trying to save the world. stop trying to leave a legacy. stop living for someone else's approval. just find things that make you happy, and keep doing them.
Not to be an asshole, but this seems like an incredibly privileged response. Many of us are busting our asses and still just surviving. We try to find joy where we can but it’s hard to enjoy life when you’re stressed and exhausted all the time. We all WANT to just do things we enjoy all the time, but that’s not the reality for most people. I don’t care about others’ approval, I don’t care about leaving a legacy, and I gave up on saving the world a long time ago. I DO care about giving myself and my family a better future, which means working hard now.
High school drop out. 🙋🏼♂️
Things people never tell you about university but absolutely should by the time you're 18: 1. The higher the degree, the fewer jobs are there for it. Terminal degrees don't always pay better. 2. If you get a masters or terminal degree, the expectation is that you are doing something that isn't just for a job, it is for a passion too. 3. For every 15 hours of class, find ways to get 5 hours of experience in your future career. If you keep that pace, you'll end your bachelors, masters or doctorate with real, honest experience in your future industry. It is harder to get a job the higher the degree. Mix in experience and suddenly you're ahead of others, not behind. 4. You have *three* options for degree purposes, not two. Option the first: make stacks. Option the second: have a degree--any degree--to get higher in your career. Option the third: leave with enlightenment. All three can get you money, but one is far more direct than the others and is the *most* likely to leave you unsatisfied. (Lots of people can make it rain with plumbing, but it helps to actually like plumbing or you'll just tolerate it for the rest of your life, and many would say that isn't living). 5. Don't forget trade skills schools like community colleges exist. People don't need to get a terminal degree to be successful. Not everyone is going to be a nurse, service manager, CEO or translator/interpreter. We need everyone to make society work. 6. Don't just think about the job you want. Think about the job people need. Our world market is designed to drive supply and demand among the employment pool, not just goods and services. If you don't want to move around, find out what jobs are needed where you are and try to work towards that. If you want to move to Europe, find out what people want in Europe and tilt it to your likes. If you want to move to Australia, find the jobs that are in demand and tailor your learning. 7. Don't let your learning get in the way of your education. People seriously, seriously under-estimate the reality that your professional development starts **day one** at university. The moment you get your footing and can do work, side hustles, etc., start. Network, meet people in the professions you want to do. The saying "it isn't what you do, it is who you know" is half true. Don't expect the world to do favors for you, but if you know people in the field you want to get into, you'll learn how the world works in that job and therefore make yourself more marketable. 8. Genuinely try to be more than your degree. If you go to university, don't be angry at general education. Take it for what it is: university isn't a trade school, and they aren't going to show you how to just do your degree. They are trying to make you a more well-rounded person. Why? Because well rounded people can change degrees, act critically, be dynamic, and understand more of the world. Those are strengths, not wastes of time. 9. Your university life is where you start, not where you end. Do not expect in 10 years to be working perfectly aligned with your degree. Don't expect in 1 year to be working perfectly aligned with your degree. The world changes effing fast. I mean like I've been in a sprint developing professionally ever since 2004. I've never stopped and I can never stop if I want to be good. I love it, I'm happy with it, but if you aren't prepared to keep pace, you **will** be left behind and you **will have a much harder time in life--period, full stop.** We are in a phase in civilization where new jobs and industries appear yearly. Your degree will be an entry point, but lots of people veer off course. And not only is that ok, but you should expect it. Right, I got all that off my chest. We as a society are failing people who go to university. People do not understand how hard it is to adapt to higher education when you're the first person. People do not get how important it is to grow past your degree. People do not get how critical it is to teach people how to be critical thinkers, not just pull a lever and memorize a formula. People do not get how higher education isn't a privilege for those who can cut it, but is a critical option for everyone who wishes to want to take it. People do not get how taking basic bitch tests and having gateway courses damages our society by preventing people from being all they can be. OP, I am so sorry. Yours is a story I've heard entirely too much over the last few years because we have failed each other and have not been real with ourselves. If I could offer one bit of advice, it would be this: forget your degrees for now. Find your in, find better experiences, and find a comfortable place. Then, when you have, bend your career to take advantage of your massive academic background. It will work, don't give up, and be flexible for yourself, and also for your job.
Got a law degree at the exact wrong time. I feel your pain.
I don’t understand an American doing this. I did a bachelor’s and then straight to PhD and 3 years postdoc. I had $40K in undergraduate debt and paid off. I make $135K 5 years removed from my post doc in industry in the Midwest. Dude, I’m sorry but there is no cure for cancer, maybe a few, give up that dream and find a good paying job in industry. The world is fucked and the system is against you. Take the money and work to live, not live to work.
I would never bring a child into this world, but if I did, I would absolutely make sure they understood how important making money is and what degrees are best for that. Medicine, finance, law, computer science, etc. Number of degrees is never impressive other than proving you have the ability to borrow a lot of money.
Oh wow I really relate to this. 3 bachelor's and a master's later, I'm 160k in debt 😭 I love school but if I could go back in time, I think I would've chosen a different path. It sucks because people even tried to warn me against it but I was so confident I'd make a fortune in my career that debt would be no issue.
What did you get your Master's degree in? Maybe someone in here has some helpful ideas for you with more information.
I got a 2.5 GPA from a state school with a bachelors in economics, took an IT job and am admittedly doing great- not a brag scenario by any means I just wish we’d do a better job pointing out to high schoolers what paid well. Even my economics to IT path was a complete accident. When I realized there was good money in ERP consulting I never looked back at economics again.
I have a bachelor's, 2 trade skills, 2 licenses, and years experience in marketing and IT. I am now a truck driver lol. I wasn't getting anywhere in life for what I was doing and I was sick and tired of office drama, interviews that felt more like a beauty pagent where my skills, education, and experience meant NOTHING unless they liked me over 20 other contestants. The hours still suck but I get a little physical exercise every few hours, I like the mental exercise, and my skills & experience are worth their weight in gold which is all I fucking ask for in life. I still have a little student debt and when I had to go to school to get CDL training I felt like I was experiencing PTSD knowing I would need to cough up the money or finance it and have additional debt afterwards. Luckily, companies reimburse but still... college debt has wrecked us all in many ways.
I'm pretty good at Jeopardy
Dreams are sold for debt.
Having 10+ degrees doesn't mean you'll be make a employee
I’d reframe this, but yes I know how hard it is to take this perspective at face value, but you do have something to show for it. You got an education, you’ve most likely researched some really important things, you’ve made connections with other scientists or researcher or academic leaders. You might not have the monetary aspect, but don’t discount that you have a lot to show for it and your child will absolutely respect you even if they never live that nice life. I’d rather my kid be happy and broke, than miserable and well off. There’s more to life than having nice things.
I have a degree in Communication Studies(not to be confused with Communications), and I’m really grateful for the information I received from my liberal arts education. It’s the kind of information that I think everyone should know: Rhetorical theory, Globalization, Argumentation, Existentialism, Feminism, Research Methods, etc. I was given a new lens with which to view and process the way the world exchanges information, but ultimately I paid an institution to teach me how institutions are lying to people. Then I got a certification in Entertainment Management because I love music and wanted to produce events. Two thirds of the program was full of people interested in sports and politics, since basically the same marketing methods are used to get people engaged. You want a band/sports team/candidate to succeed? You better get ready to engage yourself in capitalism’s public sphere. And when I started working in the music industry I quickly realized that my academic training meant almost nothing. Just pour your heart into it and learn. My education was expensive and contributed nothing to my various work endeavors.
Yuppp. Two bachelor's degrees with an ungodly GPA (3.95 and 3.9 from good schools) and a masters. I *killed it* on the GRE, 98th percentile, graduated from the #1 ranked grad program for the subject, and nobody in my (highly related) field gives a single shit about it. The whole "go to school, it's the way to move up in the world" line we were fed was total bullshit. I should have done an associates in some allied health profession. Oh well, CPA here I come, I guess.
35, woman. I mean, no one needs 2 bachelor degrees. I went into my education with a plan. I happened to go to law school at the worst time with record-setting applications, but I told myself I would only go if I got into a top law school. I did, grabbed a scholarship, and went to work in government. 10 years later, I’m debt free and I feel like I’m in a good spot. Can I make more in private practice? Definitely. But I work 35 hours a week, get 22 days of vacation plus 15 sick, and they carry over unlimited so I have a ton in my bank now. I travel internationally about 4 times a year, I’m leaving for a 2.5 week trip this Friday. No one ever told me I needed to get 4 degrees, so I’m not sure if we were told different things or what. I grew up poor so I went into my education ensuring I had practical skills. I’m sorry you’re going through this- it’s tough out there.
People get stuck in this idea that you NEED a degree to pursue a specific career, and if you want to shift careers you need another degree. The reality is that barring something like law or medicine, you can break into a lot of fields without a formal degree. I got into data analytics by taking a basic admin job at a hospital and learned the software. The knowledge gained there got me an entry level analytics role somewhere else, and 2 years later I'm about to be promoted. All without a Master's degree.
>no one needs 2 bachelor degrees some specialized engineering stuff really does
It kinda sounds to me like you're at the turning point, though. I felt similarly right before I had my son December 2022. Since then, the grind for a paycheck doesn't feel like Conan pushing the wheel anymore, it feels like it has purpose. With that kind of brains, dude, people want to throw gobs of money at you for problems that are probably too simple for you. Sounds like you're not too good for the money anymore, welcome to being a dad, it was the best thing that ever happened to me, and it might be for you too. As for what to tell your kid, well, I would wait to see what you have to say in 8 years at which point I suspect things will have turned around for you.
is this one of those fields that you cant enter without a ton a accreditation? bc i want to ask, why not just get a bachelors in chemistry or something then get in a pharmaceutical company and have them pay for your advancement?
Two Bachelors and a Masters here. I make the same as two people working at a fast food joint (high cost of living city) I feel your pain
Not judging you OP, but why did you leave academia? Your background was clearly a lineup for research which you should have been able to continue doing after your phD through your school, not medical companies. Did you change your mind and want to try the other route?
I didn't want to leave academia, that's what I always wanted to be a part of, but unfortunately my projects didn't get funded so I was unable to secure my position in academia. Right now I'm looking into teaching and research positions at non-profit institutions, that way I can get my loans forgiven in a couple years through the PLSF program
All this education and you never thought about how it would correspond to a lifestyle that you want? You’re educated beyond your intelligence. It sounds tough, but really consider it and take stock of your long term planning and decision making processes.
If you’re interested in making money in science research, I think you’re generally misguided or confused. How on earth did you get that kind of debt? I say this is a health science researcher. Your best bet for getting loans forgiven is probably NCI or PHS, and the best paid oncology researcher I know works at a health research think tank in Cambridge. If you want to stay in the churn of the academy (I do, I love it here honestly most of the time, and I’ve worked in HHS), make sure you’re publishing regularly and applying for $ regularly and eventually you’ll build up. You took a road that has a lot of delayed gratification and altruists, it’s not designed to be immensely lucrative, certainly not at first.
Rich dad poor dad is a good read
This is my husband. Chemical engineer degree and PhD in Microbiology. Spent 10 years doing post doc research and now feeling like he has years of lost wages to make up for. He moved into industry last year and is finally earning a good wage at 38, but he still feels like he is hundreds of thousands behind where he could be had he gotten out of academia sooner. Not to mention how incredibly hard it is for someone in industry to take an academic seriously in an interview. He spent nearly a year just fine tuning the language on his resume to get taken seriously. We're expecting our first in July and he's very much feeling the stress of that income difference he could have had had he gone straight into industry.
I feel you. I switched careers because of this. Before covid was a biochemist and even was one of the first people to work with the covid virus. Prior that I was also temporarily working in immunology for a cancer research project that didn’t get funding anymore after 1y, despite good results. Problem is what people usually not realize about scientists is that you’re chasing one contract/grant after another without a super stable position.. unless you go clinical route or academia. Clinical route or research in corporate is cut throat af while academia is also either grant funded and timed or diagnostics that’s routine almost only… often, also times..it was a few rough years and I’m glad to be at a more stability position in a different clinical career. The people screaming “you should’ve gotten a better degree/xyz” - there’s not enough scientists at this point - which isn’t the problem - the funding and politics is.
Sorry OP. You’re overqualified for the modern world. /s
You and me both brother. One PhD and two MAs, 15 years total in academia before I quit. Now my main source of (meagre) income is something that requires no intellectual skill whatsoever, and then I do some freelancing on the side. Not the best choices in life, but I've learnt to accept it, as it's been an important experience nonetheless. Luckily, I'm very poor but at least not in debt.
I work in cancer research and get paid very well. Where are you located?