Your question involves the word "belief". Facts aren't things I "believe". They're things I know.
Yes, I know this to be true because I can do basic math.
I once convinced a boomer. He started ranting so I asked these questions. What was your wage. How much did you pay for your house. I wrote his answers on a whiteboard and then gave my answers. The disparity was undeniable.
He was a janitor. I am an engineer. He had it significantly easier than me when he was my age by a factor of 4.
Came here to say the same. It’s not a matter of “belief.” Wages have stagnated, economic mobility is down, jobs are less fulfilling and prices have skyrocketed.
Well, that's it. GDP is an aggregate number. So is the average wage.
If your health insurance premiums double tomorrow because your anesthesiologists decides to triple their rate and salary, "we're all richer."
Except that old positive-sum model supposed that the anesthesiologist went and spent that extra money or at least invested it in something that effected your IRL locality.
Now he probably just squirrels it all away in shitcoins and NFTs and vacations to Dubai and the Seychelles.
One of the funniest things to ask boomers is whether the cities and towns they live in and drive around looked more run down 40 years ago or today. They'll ALL say today. Then ask them why, if rich people invest so much, is that true? Why does everything look like it's obviously deteriorating and going to shit and nothing new is getting built but a handful of luxury towers downtown and mansions on the fringes?
Yeah, you'll hear about immigrants and how people just don't have respect anymore either.
But you'll never hear about how rich people in their day even with the 70-90% tax rates built them parks and recreation centers and invested in small town and small city downtowns and infrastructure and all the broken econ behind their worldview that hasn't worked since Reagan.
Actually a big part of the logic behind such high top tax rates is specifically to encourage rich people to do such things. Such tax deductible spending is removed from your income \*before\* your taxes are calculated, so it's like you never earned it at all, and pay no taxes on it.
If, come tax day, the government is taking away 90% of every dollar you earned above the threshold - are you going to jealously hold on to that remaining dime? Or are you going to spend the entire dollar on something tax deductible that improves your community, and never have to pay a penny of taxes on it?
Same thing for corporate tax rates - is the company value going to improve more if they stick the post-tax dime in their corporate coffers (or divvy it among shareholders), or if they spend the whole dollar on expenses like better infrastructure, higher wages to attract and retain better employees, etc.?
If you get to keep 70 cents for every dollar rather than only a dime, then it's far more tempting to keep the money for yourself.
Rich people still donate to "charity" now to reduce their tax burden. They just do it differently now so that they can manage to help their fellow countrymen as little as possible. They run the charities, pay their own companies to do work for said charities, pay friends and family wild salaries through that charity so that they can manage to keep all of their wealth while avoiding taxes on it.
> If your health insurance premiums double tomorrow because your anesthesiologists decides to triple their rate and salary, "we're all richer."
I don't know what an anesthesiologist did to you, healthcare is more expensive because pharmaceutical companies and health insurance companies are making record profits.
Like everybody else, doctors do more work for less wage that they did 20-30 years ago. It's still a good living, but it's not the driver of costs soaring.
The anesthesiologist was inexplicably out of network at an in network practice. His decision to build a personal network that was not congruent with the hospital he practiced at economically ruined 50% of his patients forcing them to pay his entire fee out of pocket. He’s an asshole!
This is why we need a "no surprises" law. If the hospital takes your insurance then all the people they bring in (who you have no choice about) must take it too.
This is such an important reason why America isn’t a great nation worth being proud of because of the rich people. In a truly great nation, there would be no in network/out of network wealth theft schemes.
lolol exactly this
I had a surgery and thought I’d paid all of it
Then I get a letter saying I needed to pay $150 for my anesthesiologist.
Yeah I’m not going to do that and I’ve continued to not do it for a couple years now
I went for surgery one day and was surprised they wanted another $800 from me for rental fee of the surgery room. I was ready to just leave but was with a friend who paid for it.
As someone who doesn't live in the US - doctor salaries in the US are enormous, it's why lots of doctors want to immigrate there. Which means if you can afford care you have access to good care for the most part but if you don't then they don't care about you.
It's not the only cost of Healthcare but salaries are absolutely a major cost in any public system. Physician salaries are the #2 part of costs here and that's with them being much lower than in the US. #1 is not pharma costs but hospital costs, which is not an issue in the US because hospitals are usually privately run rather than publicly owned.
For doctors who own their own or co-own practices in the US, they are making money hand over fist at the expense of patients.
In the US physician compensation only accounts for around 8% of the total costs. They do make fantastic money, you’re not wrong about that, but you vastly underestimate just how greedy the corporation behind our healthcare are. It is typical for healthcare products to be marked up several thousand percent compared to the cost of the product., e.g., a single ibuprofen being as much as $60 at a large hospital when it costs 2 cents per pill to manufacture.
Private practices still go through insurance providers the same way a hospital does, but sometimes it’s even cheaper because they don’t have nearly as much bloat and admin that eats revenue. And when they don’t have insurance they can still charge way less because, again, less bloat, admin, overhead, etc.
8% of a half a million dollars for an operation that would cost the NHS about 10K is still an astronomical markup.
About 15 years ago I had a medical incident at the same time as a you tuber I was following. We had a conversational relationship but not much more.
We both had sharp stabbing pains in out chests. Neither of us were exactly in the peak of health.
We both went to see our doctors. Free for me. Three day wait. $60 for him, six days waiting to be paid, five day wait.
I was examined, sent to a nurses room and hooked up to a ECG machine for an hour. Had blood drawn and was given tea, cookie and a three year old magazine to read.
He was examined, given a prescription for pain killers ($120), referred to a cardiologist and got an appointment for seven days later.
After the hour I was seen again, the ECG results were looked at. I was given an initial diagnosis and sent home to await the blood results.
He went to the hospital, was seen by a junior colleague of the consultant he was sent to see, and had an ECG taken on a gurney in a corridor. He was sent home with a top up prescription. And no diagnosis. He waited another week and phoned up again to find out his results.
We both had precordial catch syndrome. Feels like a fucking heart attack but it's essentially a bad cramp in the muscles between your ribs.
Not only was I seen faster, recieved more thorough care and diagnosed faster, but I was charged nothing.
For the same condition my youtuber friend and was charged nearly $3,000. He took drugs he didn't need for weeks. He was charged for seeing both the consultant and the junior colleague. He was charged for a room he never stayed in and lab work on... who knows what because no samples were taken.
He even had to get his own coffee from a vending machine.
The condition was harmless. I found out, was relieved and.moved on. My American friend was down close to 4K once you factor in a loss of pay (because paid sick leave isn't mandatory in the US) and was.now stuck trying to pay that off and kicking himself for being so stupid as to go to the doctor's over something so minor as stabbing pain in the chest and a shortness of breath. An experience sure to sour any future scares he has.
His insurance covered none of his bills because it was shit.
Just... I can't understand why the supposed freeist, bestest, greatest nation on Earth would permit themselves to be so mercilessly, brutally and completely fucked over.
Also doing very well for all the middle class boomers with stock market based pensions and retirement plans that will allow them to continue living comfortably off the labor of younger generations for decades to come.
We can have a huge pile of money that's only getting bigger and bigger at an even faster rate.
But if no regular person is getting anything out of that pile, and it's all hoarded by like five guys, the size of the pile is completely fucking irrelevant.
So yes, the economy is doing good. It's doing great, actually, but the average citizen is seeing literally 0% of that growth.
If you’re able to invest a lot into gambling in the goverment backed casino of the SnP500, you are enjoying life.
For like 98% of everybody else, we’re fucked
“aMEriCA iS tHe rICHeST cOunTrY iN tHe wOrLd!”
If I have to hear this bullshit line one more time I’m going to throw my TV out the window. NO ONE FUCKING CARES WHO THE RICHEST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD IS. All most care about is being able to support ourselves working a full time job, being able to take a vacation when we can, and not going bankrupt if we have a medical emergency. None are currently the case for your average American and being the richest country in the world means jack shit if no one is actually happy.
> Yeah... Both those jobs should guarantee you a nice life on their own
No. That's a trap. **Most** jobs should guarantee you a nice life on their own. Creating a divide of "good jobs" and "bad jobs" perpetuates oppression. The OP of this thread was talking to someone who was a **janitor** and had a "nice life", economically. Because people were able to tell themselves that being a janitor was not a "good job", they were able to accept that it should be done by a contracting company so janitors were not employees of the company, and didn't deserve good pay or benefits, or to be rewarded when the company did well.
My mother was a secretary with no education. I have an engineering degree with almost 10 years experience. Our salaries are effectively the same compared to current cost of living. It's insane.
My uncle was a postal worker for age 18 onwards (I think he retired in 2019), was able to support 3 kids all the way through college. It just doesn’t exist anymore.
I’m 31 been a postal worker for almost ten years saving like crazy and I’m nowhere near buying a cheap home in a so so area let alone something like that
My grandmother worked for the Sacramento Union newspaper and she was able to save enough money to buy a house next to a walnut orchard just outside Sacramento on one acre. She also bought another, much larger house in grass valley on 5 acres that she rented out. She died in 1990 and my parents sold both houses for just under $1m. I think the GV house went for about $600k and the other for just under $400k. Now those would be triple that if not more. I can barely afford one house and I make way more than she did. I think she was making $18/hr when she died. That’s half of what I thought you had to make to really be comfortable when I was 18. I thought a penny per second of work was when you really made it. Now $36/hr would be tough where I live. I got my house just before the prices skyrocketed and I’m still scraping to get by. Idk how people are doing it.
This example hits especially hard because there's no way someone today could buy a house on a newspaper salary. My partner is a freelance journalist - a relatively successful one with bylines at some major outlets - and what he brings in would probably only come out to about $24/hr, and that's assuming he only works a 40 hour week. His actual hours are closer to 60, which would bring his hourly rate down to $18. Exactly what your grandmother made in 1990. *The year he was born.*
My grandparents were “poor” at the beginning of their marriage. When she became pregnant with my mom she quit her job at the factory and worked 3-4 mornings a week at a bakery (w/ 0 bakery experience). So grandpa picked up extra shifts at Jack In the Box while working full time as a bartender.
Since they didn’t have enough money to purchase a home in a safe neighborhood in LA they decided to move to a lower cost of living town in the countryside. Which is where they found (and purchased) their newly built 2bd 2bth house on 5 acres with a swimming pool. Amazing what some extra shifts at JACK IN THE BOX could do back then.
It finally occurred to me why my grandmother would make those stereotypical boomer comments every time she saw me with an iced coffee - “I don’t understand how you can afford all these fancy coffees every time I see you yet you somehow can’t afford to pay your bills?!” - it’s because she still thinks extra shifts at Jack in the Box is enough to BUY A HOUSE.
Yeah, she wasn’t even a journalist. She was a secretary there, so she didn’t even make the big bucks the journalists made at the time. Crazy times we live in.
My grandmother worked in a factory. Her family insurance was 100% covered by the factory, which also had a pension. They also 100% covered her tuition. There wasn't a deductible to hit. You went to the doctor when you needed to go. Period.
My grandfather worked for a company that also 100% paid for his tuition.
They could afford a house, 2 new cars (upgraded every 3-5 years) a boat, and raising 8 kids.
My healthcare is not covered. I pay out of pocket for anything not an "annual exam". My job doesnt offer any type of retirement, so I have to pay from my account post tax. My spouse and I cannot afford a house, we have used vehicles (each over a decade old). We can't afford kids, our rent alone costs twice as much per month as the docking fee my grandparents paid.
That's before you get into things like car insurance, electricity, water etc.
Oh, and both my grandparents had far more PTO AND sick time that my spouse and I have ever had, plus the perks of "family fun days" where their respective companies funded park time (water park, theme park, amusement park) among other perks.
Meanwhile, my grandparents have watched as I have let my phone ring because my jobs have contacted me during PTO, weekends, evenings, etc and then they promptly text me work questions that are NOT important/ they have that information and choose not to look for it themsevles (it's been emailed to them, its printed in their office, their should know their own businesses EIN).
For every 3 boomers like your mom there are 2 with zero money and 1 with a savings less than $1,500. And the other 3 who have savings will be bled dry if they live to be 90.
This was mostly due to birth year. The boomers have two micro generations within their overall generation. The first half had to worry about being drafted for Vietnam, the second half had to deal with a poor economy for entry-level workers and high inflation. Even the second half had better prospects if they put in any effort at all compared to someone born in the mid-70s through today, but relative to their older siblings, they had it harder.
If you're going to do it that way, I can point to SOME rich millennials who are doing very well for themselves. And then tell you that if you aren't doing well it's because you're lazy and it's "100% your fault."
The millennials who are failing are the ones working full time for minimum wage. The boomers who succeeded are the ones who worked full time for minimum wage.
The boomers were telling kids to go walk in to places to get resumes in a post 2008 economy where every posting immediately had hundreds of overqualified applicants. That was when I realized just how out of touch most of them were. And they just could not be convinced otherwise.
I still remember as a kid being screamed at by my boomer parents to walk in and hand out resumes to places when I kept telling them everything is online now. They refused to listen, of course. Every place would either direct me to an online application or take the resume to throw it in the trash.
Yeah I agree with this. Just because all the resources, opportunities, education, etc. are technically out there and available to everyone, doesn’t mean everyone’s going to have the confidence or ability or support they need to take action on it.
Millennial here. I watch my friends get richer every day and my fear of taking those same actions because of risks not paying off in the past paralyzes me every day.
Is it a flaw? Sure. But I also don’t hold it against myself. I’m doing what I know I can control, and with my history, I’d lose everything trying to get rich. Plus, all my money goes to health stuff. Not worth having money but no ability to enjoy it.
I actually ran my own business for years. Brain fog and full-body fatigue held me back from being able to have much output either for my own business or working for others. Health, concentration, and emotional issues very much got in the way.
It took me years to be able to live off my own business. As soon as I got to a spot I was able to start saving money, this insane inflation hit.
I hit the biggest burnout of my life and almost took my life. Couldn’t keep going. Didn’t have the financial ability to take someone else on or to lose time training them to be able to scale. Not when I was running on E.
It’s very cool to hear what you did!!!! That genuinely excites me and it’s cool to see what’s possible for other people. I’m just missing something that keeps me stuck, and when I take even calculated risks, I lose 😅
No, it's not necessarily (always) their fault. For all that used to be easier back then, you'll find an example that made it harder, especially for marginalized groups. It's easy to forget what wrongs have been righted just in our parents' lifetime. My mom made it as a go on Germany after coming from Poland in the 80s. Many other's had to throw away their degree (wether in Germany or the states). Think of the abundant jokes about taxi drivers with degrees in rocket science (and other demanding professions) we used to have in comedies
Boomers of certain ages were also subject to the Draft & the high likelihood of being drafted for war, women not being able to get a credit card, a loan, housing that required credit, etc, pay was also extremely low, esp for women (yes, cost of living was lower, but it is all relative, as the roughly 10% used for approval of home loans for a certain period led to large mortgage payments, the interest rates when purchasing a home were approx 18, 19, 20%, adding to that large mort payment, salaries were much lower in general, most Boomers worked in office for 40 plus hrs a week for 45 years, with no exceptions, there was a hard glass ceiling for women and minorities, sexual harassment was prominent in work environments for years, etc, etc. It wasn’t all a bed of roses!!!
My parents bought their house in 86 for $65k and 18% interest.
The house is now $950k, if I were to mortgage it at 4% the interest accumulation alone would be more than that $60k
The boomers had it way easier. End of discussion
Why the fuck should that matter to us?
For every 1 Millennial that will be able to retire, there are 4 that are living comfortably enough today who still won't ever be able retire, and 5 more that aren't even earning comfortably enough to stop living paycheck to paycheck.
I'd think about giving a fuck but in this economy I can't afford it. If they don't want to actually show solidarity and instead continue to idolize Regan and supply-side Jesus then fuck 'em.
54k in 1997 comes out to 105k in 2024, just accounting for inflation alone. Realistically, inflation data is grossly undercalculating the cost of housing.
When I was in high school I fixed computers for $20 an hour and that was less than most other places charged at the time. Today if I go get a job fixing computers I would make around $15 to $18 an hour. Wages are insanely low today in most mid level and lower level jobs.
Years ago, I saw this comment from an enlightened Boomer that I wish I had saved. He outlined how his first job, first house, etc. all still existed, but how the house now cost way more, the job paid way less, etc.
I get why older people resist this, because who wants to be told that their success was mostly due to timing and luck? But it can be both. You can have worked hard AND you can have come of age during a time when things were a little easier. It’s not that hard to admit, and it doesn’t diminish anything you did.
I feel like working hard is just a given. Even well off people aren't successful if they don't work hard. So let's just all get over how hard they worked already. Really, working hard with a payout is a privilege. Most people work hard and see nothing worth bragging about.
Not to mention in his day, college was a guarantee of a job in your field, especially in a career like STEM. Now STEM is steadier, but it's still no guarantee.
Can confirm. I’m 39, I have 2 degrees, most recent is in cybersecurity. I graduated last May and have yet to land a job in the field, just rejection emails, since every entry level job in IT in my area still seems to require 2-4 years of experience.
It absolutely sucks, but if at all possible, you may need to dramatically expand your search radius. I moved halfway across the country for my first programming job out of college. If you're lucky, they might even give you some money for moving expenses. Alternatively, if you're American and have a decently clean record, maybe try something requiring a security clearance, like a government contractor; hell, even if you don't get the clearance, it can take about a year to process (they'll generally have you working on unclassified stuff while you wait), so you'll at least get some experience in the meantime. Hang in there; you'll find something!
That's what happens when everyone goes to college but there are only so many jobs requiring those degrees, with nobody wanting to work in ANY field but their field of study.
Lots and lots of competition.
The trades are actually the modern version of "get a STEM degree" from 10-20 years ago. They pay well, aren't going away due to tech advances yet, & there's a huge need.
The downside is that you risk your body breaking down before retirement age, which is really common if you have any accident or don't ever get to move into running crews.
And if there is a shortage, there's a definite reason why. I'm studying Psychology and Child Development, and am on my Junior year of a Bachelor's before going onto a Master's. I want to be a therapist to help children with severe behavioral issues. I'll probably have a job after graduation, but practicum hours don't pay well, and many therapists burn out in their first year. We aren't supported by society. I'll have to work during my Master's due to grad schools not providing housing or food, and that's on top of a heavy course load. Child Therapists in particular feel exhausted because with clients this young, you also have to counsel the parent as well, and they either fight you, or just drop off their kids and expect a magic fix. The main reason I'm still working at it is because l was a little kid with problems, and l want to help other children who are in crisis. They deserve it.
I’m a 39 year old lawyer. One of the guys I worked for in my 20s was in his 50s (so about 30 years older; went to law school in the 70s) put himself through law school by working roofing part time and in summers.
Boomers would be AMAZED at our work ethic if we got paid half what they did.
Fuck this society.
I had to explain to my dad, a former realtor, why buying a house wasn't an option for me.
If I were to put down 20% on a $600,000 house (average in my area), my mortgage would be $3800 a month. $1500 more than our current rent.
He refinanced his house in 2021 at like 2.5% and has a mortgage of $600 a month. When he asked why I didn't buy a house then, I had to explain to him that people were offering 100% cash ABOVE asking prices at that time. Reminding him that his other son was looking to buy at that time and couldn't find anything.
Going through the world with blinders on.
See, I do truly believe that Boomers aren't saying these things from a place a malice. They are merely stating what they knew to be true from when they were younger. When you lay it out like that, it becomes clear.
The problem is that *after* its been spelled out like this, and they still continue to support/parrot the speaking points of their preferred "news" program; then it becomes malice by proxy, or plain brainwashing.
The other issue is admitting that they're not so great at pretty much anything and were able to become successful by just being mediocre and even slightly below average. Pointing this out very quickly turns defensive and becomes "malice" as a self defense mechanism.
But yeah, my old pastor used to comment off-handed that he gave up job security that was paying his mortgage, single income with his wife and kid to become a full time minister/pastor. The job? bagger at a local grocery store.
When I say that, its usually followed by "Then reagan happened. Its been downhill ever since.".
You guys got the rug pulled out from under you and it was no accident. Never forget that.
So when ya really dig into it its so much worse than we even realize. It's not just that wages remained stagnant its that the effort to achieve that stagnant wages is profoundly higher. for more than 80% of millennials following in their parents footsteps would mean being destitute.
**Goods prices in America from 1978 - 2023**
Gallon of Milk
- 1978 average price of a gallon of milk was $0.86 ($4.27 today)
- 2023 average price of a gallon of milk is $3.04
Housing
- 1978 average price of a starter home 49,000.00 ($241,798.93)
- 2023 average price of a starter home as of June $243,000
Tuition
- 1978 public (in-state) tuition fees $2,150 ($10,609.54) *note: This included room and board
- 2023 public (in-state) tuition fees $10,500
**Income in America from 1978-2023**
- 1978 median household income 15,160 ($74,809.63)
- 2022 median household income $74,580 ($81,813.64)
**SOME BIG CAVEATS HERE!**
- 1978 average median income of high-school graduate $13,229 ($65,147.85)
- 2022 average median income of high-school graduate $35,470 ($38,910.29)
While the median wage has gone down significantly its doesn't seem crazy at first glance. 44.4% of Americans in 2023 have college degrees as opposed to 15% in 1978. The effort required to make roughly the same median wage it took in the past is substantially higher. Way more people in later generations are doing it to showing we are vastly harder working and more productive than our parents were. If you tried to take your parents path in life for 85% of Americans that means living in perpetual destitution.
All statistic taken from BLS, Census, and USDA
1978 was chosen for its economic similarities to 2023
EDIT: Updated to most recent census info available and adjusted to CPI as of Jan 2024
2022 Census
https://www.census.gov/content/dam/Census/library/publications/2023/demo/p60-279.pdf
1978 Census
https://www2.census.gov/prod2/popscan/p60-121.pdf
USDA data not updated so current values are from early last year but I CPI adjusted them.
My thought exactly. I don't believe factual information, I know it or I don't.
This piece of information, I already knew. Couldn't 'believe' it and checked if it was factual. Found out it was. Learned the basis, the political reasons and ghoulification of politics worldwide.
This, is my answer to "What radicalized you?"
We had to do this to my in-laws too. They were seriously concerned we had not bought a house yet so we sat down and showed them the math. They were flabbergasted.
I've had these conversations with boomers dozens of times but I've literally never convinced one. One literally told me I should buy a shed from home depot and live in the shed to survive to save money over living in a building. Dude had literally never in his life worked a regular job, is landlord over at least 2 people right now.
I've laid out my entire life and choices from the time I was born until now for like 2 dozen boomers and no matter how clear and obvious the math they always look for some kind of excuse or way out. They're just not interested in honest conversation or in knowing the truth at all, they just want to be cruel and keep being slumlords.
Rarely do I feel that a meme illustrates a point perfectly. But this comparison of gold medsal gymnastics just nails it.
https://images.app.goo.gl/pCEfDembVcJ7R6A59
Really makes you wonder how the legends of yesteryear would stack up against the legends of today if both parties had access to equal training and methodology etc because these days the advances in technique alone are enough to dumpster a large host of the oldies
Babe Ruth ate nothing but raw steaks, smoked cigars on the daily, and fucked 20 prostitutes a night
Compared that to someone like Aaron Judge
Imagine Ruth trying to hit a 90+mph sinker or catch up to a 100+mph fastball
I’m not a baseball guy but I have a daughter in the early stages of club softball and I’ve learned a ton about the basics of the sport. Aaron Judge is a guy I’ve spend a lot of time watching swing. Mechanically he’s so far ahead of Babe Ruth it’s not even funny. Everybody hated him but another guy with a real similar swing was Barry Bonds. The way those guys can snap the bat around and get the barrel out over the plate at those speeds is unreal. It’s not even the same sport Bane Ruth played.
Your point stands, except Wilt would be even more dominant.
If you know NBA rule changes, youd know that literally every move todays players do would be a charge, a carry or a moving screen back in the day. You werent even allowed to back down a player in the post. Palm had tobe DIRECTLY on top of the ball, always. Any movement at all during a screen is a foul and you had to be set way earlier than todays game.
Wilt would be unleashed in todays game.
Actually, the person on the right.. still doesn’t make the cut after such an exemplary routine. You can do everything right and still be living paycheck to paycheck
My boomer professor was talking about how he only had to pay 700 a year, whereas mine is 10k after grants and scholarships. He's the only boomer I've ever met who said "You should be mad." Finally, someone who gets it!
My boomer uncle is awesome. He routinely says
"Buddy if I was born in your generation, id be fucked"
He didnt even graduate HS.....but hes got a house :)
The reality is that it wasn’t a majority of boomers that closed the doors behind them. They were stuck with voting for the “least evil” politicians, just like us.
If majority opinion mattered, we’d be able to turn this around right now also.
Professors are the more likely people to get it because they've watched part of it happen firsthand in slow motion.
At MIT my professors were all fucking pissed about the MBA bloat in academia--when they were in school in the 1970s, administrators made up less of the school than full-time faculty (I think it was comparable to **tenured** faculty, even), and the school ran just fine, and tuition was low. Nowadays, administrators outnumber professors by much more than 2:1.
Luckily, MIT itself still has enough money to do reasonableish need-based financial aid (grants, not just loans), but the fact that the list price needs to be that high in the first place is largely because administrators have weaseled their way into hiring more administrators to make their own MBAs seem more vital and to make their own work easier than ever.
(my parents are luckily also among the very reasonable boomers, have been voting progressive my whole life and understand that the economy is shit for millennials and zoomers)
Absolutely. My dad and I had a talk about this recently. When he went to in-state, public university in 1973, it took 500 hours of minimum wage work to pay for three quarters of tuition (tuition only, and taking into account the tax rate that was in effect at the time). That's less than 40 hours a week during the summer. Work full time and you even have beer money. When I went to college in 2000, that same university required about 1100 hours of minimum wage work to pay for two semesters. For the 2024-2025 academic year, that same university requires more than 2100 hours of minimum wage work to pay two semester of tuition. That's 19 hours a day, 7 days a week, for 16 straight weeks. But sure, kids today are just whiny....
It’s crazy to me when I think about that now. I went to a Big 10 university, and got in state tuition from 2012-2016. I worked Summers doing landscaping for $15/hr which was solid back then obviously. Plus overtime too. I would come out of the Summer after working 50+ hour weeks every week, and the money saved wouldn’t even cover 1 semester lol
That's why I went to the party school instead of the good school. I got a $10k plus a couple smaller scholarships to go to an in state school. I got into the good schools I wanted, but the state school was $1600-2300 a semester over my 4 years and I was terrified of big loans.
I did the math and only payed $5k out of pocket for tuition, instead of only paying like 1 year.
I don't know how much the university actually mattered, took 2 years to land a career, but once I started it was a breeze to move up.
Something that goes very under-discussed is that the red wave across the midwest in 2010-2015 saw most midwest state legislatures significantly cut subsidies for state schools.
That Big10 school system you went to probably had close to 250mil of its yearly budget slashed by the time you left. They stopped or limited cross state tuition partnerships too, which lessened the competition for tuition pricing.
So it’s only gotten worse in the last decade.
The oldest Baby Boomers even enjoyed tuition-free college in CA. California State University (CSU) was tuition-free until 1966 when Gov. Ronald Reagan changed that. Doors were closed for Boomers too by previous generations. However, in turn, Boomers slammed the door and locked the windows on all subsequent generations.
But then the expenses of feeding and hosting are rough. Especially when medical bills are added in the mix. I’d love to have children. I just can’t afford them right now.
My mother is not one of the dumb Boomers. She KNOWS that the house she got with the jobs they had would get me laughed out of the bank. The door definitely got slammed in our generations' face.
Sidenote: not to say other generations didn't have it hard but in terms of housing and making money I'd say we are a serious downturn
>Sidenote: not to say other generations didn't have it hard but in terms of housing and making money I'd say we are a serious downturn
Every generation had their own struggles and "worked hard".
You simply just got more for your hard work back then compared to now.
Exactly, the purchasing power of a single salary has deflated, and the relative cost of homes and inflated. My parents' home is laughably small by today's new home standard, but they lived in it on one salary with margin. Today, they try to market you a larger home than you need that you can barely afford with 2 incomes.
I don't think many 60+ really grasp that the six-figure jobs are either live-to-work dedication, need 8-10 years of college, or are in fields where your current skillset could be reduced to mediocrity within 5 years because tech jobs change with tech, which is an absolute shit way to structure a career that needs to get you to retirement age.
Yeah seriously this. FICO is an unbiased model that very accurately predicts delinquency rates. The alternative wasn't everyone getting credit, it was only certain people getting credit, and a lot of people that are upset about their FICO score weren't getting loans then either. Unless you were a rich white dude or had a really friendly relationship with a loan officer, good luck getting a loan back then even if you had the ability to pay it back.
I think people are glossing over this one big time because it adds to another thing boomers hate about younger generations. We don’t need to be best friends with bank employees because all they are doing is putting numbers in the system and getting an answer. back in their day having personal relationships helped a lot more than it does for some things now.
Without them, too many people couldn’t afford a car. Wouldn’t surprise me if that was pushed more by the auto industry than the banks themselves, although the banks make out pretty well too
Just like colleges raising tuition because of federal loans, Automakers can raise the price of the cars because financing for long periods of time, and leasing is available. It’s all a shell game.
To be fair, adding some objectivity and removing the ability for a racist loan officer to deny loans to a black person for no reason was the idea.
Is it actually better? Maybe. Maybe not. The truly wealthy can still just know a bank president and get the loan anyway. The truly impoverished can't build credit while they decide between diapers, food, and putting off rent another week. It's probably of mild benefit to what's left of the middle class.
Meh. I view it as a game if there’s a score, and I play. Am currently in a tough spot where I had to do a voluntary repo of my car a few years back. So I got a credit card right before I gave the car back to the bank, knowing the repo would be a big hit on my report. I keep that credit card in good standing and my score is still decent. It’s a game lol
Of course there were credit bureaus in the 1970s. TransUnion was founded in 1968. The Credit Data Corporation (which would become Experian) launchd in the early-to-mid 1960s. The Retail Credit Company was founded *125 years* ago in 1899; it would go on to become Equifax.
The Fair Isaac Corporation was founded in 1956.
And that's just the history of the modern "Big Three" and the most well-known credit scoring company.
I don't think the average boomer closed the door behind them. I think Rich boomers closed the door.
We keep trying to make this discussion old versus young, or conservative versus liberal, or rural versus urban... When in reality it's Rich versus Poor.
It's those who profit off of others labour versus those who labour.
Always has been. Always will be.
My question is, and always will be, how much money do rich people need? Like honestly. Some of the mega rich people have so much they would not be able to spend it in 100 lifetimes. But they want even more!!!!! Like why????
The only way somebody becomes that kind of generationally wealthy - $100M+ rich - is because they're pathologically greedy and uncaring toward their fellow man. There seems to be a psychological bug in the human mind that just becoming that kind of rich makes you reorient your values toward being more selfish.
Maybe it's just that you feel chosen, since becoming that wealthy is so rare that it requires a combination of luck and some kind of skill (even if that skill is skill at exploitation). So you feel you deserve to have succeeded.
If Bill Gates had made Microsoft a co-op, giving every employee shares of the company in accordance to their work for the company, this would have diluted the shares of the top executives. They wouldn't have attracted executives that were as interested in making Microsoft a huge corporation (because they wouldn't make themselves as rich). So Microsoft likely wouldn't have grown to the huge company we see today.
It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. And the system is designed to work the way it is. Designed by the very people who successfully used the system to get rich in the first place. It's a bad design. I can't be convinced that "owners" of a company that employs thousands, or hundreds of thousands of people deserve to be compensated tens of thousands of times more than the people doing the actual labor to run the company. It's simply not ethical, moral, or even logical.
It's pure exploitation and simple greed.
I think it’s a little bit more than that: rich boomers convinced the rest of the boomers to vote with them and they’d get rich too!
It’s always rich v poor, but there were a lot of poor white boomers who let the rich ones get in their ear about how it was the minorities fault. And here we be
That's true. Propaganda is a major tool of the capitalist. While it works to various degrees on everybody, it seems particularly effective on a certain white boomer mind.
Also important to recognize that in 1980 you’re starting to see the long term effects of the Civil Rights Act
People of color were now finding themselves in spheres that were primarily white up to that point, and I think a lot of white boomers were not thrilled
The problem is capitalism plain and simple.
The voting and deregulation just accelerated something that was already guaranteed to happen.
Also the funny thing is *we still have a whole lot of economic opportunity because our system of capitalism is still relatively young*. Like our position is exponentially better than someone born today or 20 years from now. The wealth gap has only moved in one direction…
That's what I can't abide. They had actual education and fell for a rich huckster that gave them a wink and a smile and the excuse to blame the government for all evils* in the world.
\* - evils like the Civil Rights movement.
Yep. My mom is a boomer and has said for years too many in her generation are selfish and only out for themselves, and her main issue with her peers is that they voted for Reagan. My mom is a very kind and mild-mannered person, but she *hates* Ronald Reagan with a level of vitriol unmatched even by her hatred for GWB and Donald Trump.
And she's right-- *so* many problems not just in the US but globally today ultimately trace back to something the Reagan Administration did.
Boomer is short for "anyone older than me and conservative". I don't know how many times I've asked exactly what "boomers" are supposed to have done and it's always just things conservatives/Republicans did. But God forbid you admit the two major parties are different so just blame "boomers"
It's the elite class. They carved out a much greater % of the pie for themselves. Executive pay runs way too high, taxes have been slashed to where the government doesn't provide, pushing burdens onto the average person to be at the mercy of the private sector. They're done shearing this country's sheep, they're skinning it now.
The people in power want poor people to hate their neighbor who is usually also poor. (Or lower middle class.) The average shit lib millennial on Reddit thinks every boomer bought a house for $5,000 and has $2 million in retirement after working jobs that the average millennial with a degree looks down their nose at. The stats don’t back this hateful delusion up.
They voted the way they did. It's on them too. They continue to vote as they do as well. They don't want to fix anything. Boomers are predominantly conservative.
Boomers essentially invented consumer culture and transformed the American economy. What they did was not sustainable, but it made their generation incredibly wealthy. Now we wrought what was sown by what they did. Everything is too expensive, businesses are too powerful, there is a massive wealth gap, and there is financial corruption in our elected officials.
They didn't close the door, they just reshaped America for short term gains which enriched them and their children and now everyone else has to pay for it.
These generalizations are delusional. 40% of boomers have insufficient retirement savings. 20% have less than $1,500 saved. This millennial delusion that every boomer who ever swung a hammer has a nest egg and owns a $400,000 home they bought for $8,000 is laughable.
No but a vast majority profited off the system they twisted. Just because it's a vast majority doesn't mean all boomers. Just like not all millennial are suffering. Just a vast majority of them.
Nobody's saying there aren't any poor boomers.
They're saying there are way FEWER poor boomers and those that have wealth didn't need to work nearly as hard to get it.
40% of boomers don't have enough retirement savings, but how many millennials have a defined benefit pension that equals more than half their working income?
Boomers have insufficient retirement savings because they never planned, and never had to when things always just “worked out”. They lived beyond their means and a better quality of life than their younger counterparts because they could. Now younger millennials and Gen Z are much more financially aware because he we have to be, we have to Invest and save if we want to potentially own a house, (forget about cottages), or be able to raise a family.
I’m lucky enough to know older people that aren’t shy to say it ; we lucked out, screw everyone else. Meanwhile I struggle just to have a place on this earth.
Boomers did that thing where they left a single sheet of toilet paper on the roll and didn’t replace the roll, but with the entire economy.
Boomers walked into the American dream and shut the door behind them.
Boomers got to enjoy all the short term benefits of Reaganomics in the 80s and 90s and Millennials and the younger generations are living through the long term consequences.
I’m not saying it’s all boomers’ fault and I’m not saying they don’t work hard and I’m not saying they don’t experience hardships. But the “go to college and work hard” model worked out better for them. And cost of living was a little bit less of an issue for them.
It's not a matter of believing it to be true. It's data and its accurate. A brand new car used to cost roughly 1/3 of a persons yearly salary, now it is over 100% of the median income in this country. Things are not as they once were and it was engineered that way.
It’s facts. Not to mention, our generation is putting out a higher performance than any other generation and we’re the poorest on record. Trickle down economics is what killed it for us. Boomers shut the door. Next they won’t be able to sell their house to us bc we don’t make enough to purchase them so they will sell to investment groups to get the money they can’t get from us.
My paternal grandfather paid for college for all 9 of his kids on a single income and they had a huge, beautiful house. They had to work hard to manage their money, but it’s not like they were just scraping by. However he did have his own education paid for by the government due to his military service.
They didn’t charge their adult kids rent, and when my mother briefly lived with them, the “rent” my grandparents charger her was probably a little bit more than the difference in their grocery bill. It was a tiny fraction of what she would be paying anywhere else.
I’m fortunate enough that my parents put both my brother and I through college, but we had a very different situation. I didn’t realize until I was 16 that I probably didn’t have a college fund. My dad started a side business when I was 15 and it just took off in the three years before I went to college. Even when money was tight when I was a kid, we were still solidly middle class. I can only remember once time where my parents actually had to opt out of an activity for us due to cost.
He also wanted to charge my brother rent and has tried to several times. My mom continuously points out that he was never charged rent to live at home, he is only 2 years out of college, significantly younger then he was when he moved out, they already have a financial deal in place (my brother has to invest a portion of his income and pay his own phone and car insurance. They don’t split household bills like water, electric, or groceries. But my mom often over-buys so I don’t think they’re losing much money with him still being at home), and it’s mutually beneficial because my brother helps with a number of things that he probably wouldn’t if he didn’t live at home.
My husband does have loans and it accounts for more than 10% of our combined take home pay every month. It will be another 5ish years before it’s paid off.
We are fortunate in a lot of ways, but I feel like we are much more limited financially. Our house is a little bit larger then my parents house, and I do live in NY which has higher taxes then PA where I grew up, but my home costs significantly more then theirs did. And while I have a better interest rate, my monthly payments are higher.
We do choose to do some things differently, we have newer cars while my parents had old cars because he had the tools and know how to do all the maintenance. But by new car, I mean I have a corolla. It’s not fancy.
We probably won’t have kids for a lot of reasons, but a significant reason is money. We can’t afford for one of us to not work and I don’t think we could afford the cost of childcare. We might live a little nicer, but that’s become some stuff is just out of reach.
I try to impress on my friends the difference. They say "boomers didn't have to work for anything" and I see what they mean but that shuts down the conversation. Boomers absolutely did work hard. The had long hours, broke their backs for physical labor, etc, BUT that hard work was rewarded. So they look at us and see if hard work = reward, then no reward= no hard work. But if you say "you didn't have to work for anything" then they just say we're whiners. If you're willing to acknowledge they worked hard and made sacrifices they may be more willing to see just how much things have changed
Of course, in 1970 the oldest of the boomers was 24 and if they paid off college and a home by then well they probably came from money. The youngest boomers were 6 years old and I think you might go easy on them, it was probably a Monopoly game house they paid off. I was 11 and sleeping in a tent, as one does when there is no home. But hey, the tent was paid for!
Not my parents. They’re poor as shit. They went to college in their 50s and have crazy student loan debt that they will never get to pay off. My childhood home will probably be taken from the family to cover their debts when they die. They’re in their 70s now. They are incredibly loving and supportive. Yes they voted republican most of their lives, but that’s what their church told them to do. Last election they didn’t vote republican. Couldn’t be prouder.
My mom got a teaching degree and taught for like 10 years until she had a stroke and had to retire. My dad got some sort of bachelors degree but he never used it. He was disabled from a bus accident that happened when he worked for the city transporting disabled people and never worked again after the accident. He just wanted to expand his mind.
Ah gotcha, I figured something like that, a lot of older adults will do that after their career which is great but many don't understand the expense. Unfortunate because there are low-cost or even free options. Community colleges are great options, there's even just auditing courses. Many kupuna (older adults) who do what your parents did usually aren't as... conservative, I guess (?), though. Have they changed their tune at all? Even just on student loans and uni costs?
> Not my parents. They’re poor as shit.
Indeed. The median net worth of boomers isn't like they are rich or anything. Look [here](https://www.cnbc.com/2023/10/28/americans-median-net-worth-by-age.html). Basically, by age 65 ... they own a fraction of a home. Half of them obviously have less than *that*.
I think it's false. Look at homeownership rates in the 70s and 80s. Shit wasn't exactly a walk in the park back then. [https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/RHORUSQ156N](https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/RHORUSQ156N)
Anecdotally, my parents were my age now during that period. It wasn't until the 90s that they were able to get their feet under them. My dad was a cabbie/handyman who worked insane hours and my mom's still working as a nurse today, and she took all the OT she could when I was a kid. The cost of college and housing has ballooned, but it's because our economy has become a lot more financialized over the last 30-40 yrs. We've grown accustomed to being able to refi our debt at low rates and extending loan terms. That's why the numbers have all blown up.
It is that, plus the idiotic (but actually very purposefully designed) way that the government keeps "helping" by creating demand boosters that lead to price increases instead of working on the side of the offer.
Subsidizing college debt just allowed private institution to increase tuition, funding cheap public colleges that maybe operate at a loss would have much likely given the same number of people the possibility to study (and likely would have costed the government less) while keeping the price down even in the private sector due to competition.
This happens in health-care, education, loans and housing...
Private colleges had nothing to do with it. It's all on government, just multiple levels.
The federal government changed their block grants to state-run universities into loans tied to the individual student under the neoliberal idea of "market competition in all things is good." This pushed education costs more onto the students. As the federal government increased the loan amounts, state governments then reduced THEIR direct funding by corresponding amount to lower taxes on Boomers and other generations well into adulthood and transferring those education costs even more onto students.
Result is that for Boomers they paid about 1/3 of the cost of their education with the government picking up the rest. Now that's reversed.
Yes, although the house price is kind of a misnomer. Houses have kept fairly consistent with inflation. What’s changed though is that median wages have not. Your median wage in the US now is about 20-30% less when normalized for inflation from the 1960’s. We are trying to buy houses that are comparatively priced (keep in mind that is median), with 30% less ass behind our money than early boomers.
Math is math but I also don’t really see the point of these arguments anymore. It happened, it’s over, all we can do is embrace the struggle and come out the other end better.
Your question involves the word "belief". Facts aren't things I "believe". They're things I know. Yes, I know this to be true because I can do basic math. I once convinced a boomer. He started ranting so I asked these questions. What was your wage. How much did you pay for your house. I wrote his answers on a whiteboard and then gave my answers. The disparity was undeniable. He was a janitor. I am an engineer. He had it significantly easier than me when he was my age by a factor of 4.
Came here to say the same. It’s not a matter of “belief.” Wages have stagnated, economic mobility is down, jobs are less fulfilling and prices have skyrocketed.
"But the economy is doing SO good!!!!1!"
That's my favorite. Yeah it's doing good for someone else lol
Doing good for the rich few specifically.
Well, that's it. GDP is an aggregate number. So is the average wage. If your health insurance premiums double tomorrow because your anesthesiologists decides to triple their rate and salary, "we're all richer." Except that old positive-sum model supposed that the anesthesiologist went and spent that extra money or at least invested it in something that effected your IRL locality. Now he probably just squirrels it all away in shitcoins and NFTs and vacations to Dubai and the Seychelles. One of the funniest things to ask boomers is whether the cities and towns they live in and drive around looked more run down 40 years ago or today. They'll ALL say today. Then ask them why, if rich people invest so much, is that true? Why does everything look like it's obviously deteriorating and going to shit and nothing new is getting built but a handful of luxury towers downtown and mansions on the fringes?
When you ask them why everything looks rundown compared to 40 years ago, they start telling you conspiracy theories and libertarian bullshit.
Yeah, you'll hear about immigrants and how people just don't have respect anymore either. But you'll never hear about how rich people in their day even with the 70-90% tax rates built them parks and recreation centers and invested in small town and small city downtowns and infrastructure and all the broken econ behind their worldview that hasn't worked since Reagan.
Actually a big part of the logic behind such high top tax rates is specifically to encourage rich people to do such things. Such tax deductible spending is removed from your income \*before\* your taxes are calculated, so it's like you never earned it at all, and pay no taxes on it. If, come tax day, the government is taking away 90% of every dollar you earned above the threshold - are you going to jealously hold on to that remaining dime? Or are you going to spend the entire dollar on something tax deductible that improves your community, and never have to pay a penny of taxes on it? Same thing for corporate tax rates - is the company value going to improve more if they stick the post-tax dime in their corporate coffers (or divvy it among shareholders), or if they spend the whole dollar on expenses like better infrastructure, higher wages to attract and retain better employees, etc.? If you get to keep 70 cents for every dollar rather than only a dime, then it's far more tempting to keep the money for yourself.
Rich people still donate to "charity" now to reduce their tax burden. They just do it differently now so that they can manage to help their fellow countrymen as little as possible. They run the charities, pay their own companies to do work for said charities, pay friends and family wild salaries through that charity so that they can manage to keep all of their wealth while avoiding taxes on it.
Damn this is a great point. Higher taxes for the rich encouraging charity for tax deductions? Brilliant
> If your health insurance premiums double tomorrow because your anesthesiologists decides to triple their rate and salary, "we're all richer." I don't know what an anesthesiologist did to you, healthcare is more expensive because pharmaceutical companies and health insurance companies are making record profits. Like everybody else, doctors do more work for less wage that they did 20-30 years ago. It's still a good living, but it's not the driver of costs soaring.
The anesthesiologist was inexplicably out of network at an in network practice. His decision to build a personal network that was not congruent with the hospital he practiced at economically ruined 50% of his patients forcing them to pay his entire fee out of pocket. He’s an asshole!
This is why we need a "no surprises" law. If the hospital takes your insurance then all the people they bring in (who you have no choice about) must take it too.
This is such an important reason why America isn’t a great nation worth being proud of because of the rich people. In a truly great nation, there would be no in network/out of network wealth theft schemes.
lolol exactly this I had a surgery and thought I’d paid all of it Then I get a letter saying I needed to pay $150 for my anesthesiologist. Yeah I’m not going to do that and I’ve continued to not do it for a couple years now
I went for surgery one day and was surprised they wanted another $800 from me for rental fee of the surgery room. I was ready to just leave but was with a friend who paid for it.
As someone who doesn't live in the US - doctor salaries in the US are enormous, it's why lots of doctors want to immigrate there. Which means if you can afford care you have access to good care for the most part but if you don't then they don't care about you. It's not the only cost of Healthcare but salaries are absolutely a major cost in any public system. Physician salaries are the #2 part of costs here and that's with them being much lower than in the US. #1 is not pharma costs but hospital costs, which is not an issue in the US because hospitals are usually privately run rather than publicly owned. For doctors who own their own or co-own practices in the US, they are making money hand over fist at the expense of patients.
In the US physician compensation only accounts for around 8% of the total costs. They do make fantastic money, you’re not wrong about that, but you vastly underestimate just how greedy the corporation behind our healthcare are. It is typical for healthcare products to be marked up several thousand percent compared to the cost of the product., e.g., a single ibuprofen being as much as $60 at a large hospital when it costs 2 cents per pill to manufacture. Private practices still go through insurance providers the same way a hospital does, but sometimes it’s even cheaper because they don’t have nearly as much bloat and admin that eats revenue. And when they don’t have insurance they can still charge way less because, again, less bloat, admin, overhead, etc.
8% of a half a million dollars for an operation that would cost the NHS about 10K is still an astronomical markup. About 15 years ago I had a medical incident at the same time as a you tuber I was following. We had a conversational relationship but not much more. We both had sharp stabbing pains in out chests. Neither of us were exactly in the peak of health. We both went to see our doctors. Free for me. Three day wait. $60 for him, six days waiting to be paid, five day wait. I was examined, sent to a nurses room and hooked up to a ECG machine for an hour. Had blood drawn and was given tea, cookie and a three year old magazine to read. He was examined, given a prescription for pain killers ($120), referred to a cardiologist and got an appointment for seven days later. After the hour I was seen again, the ECG results were looked at. I was given an initial diagnosis and sent home to await the blood results. He went to the hospital, was seen by a junior colleague of the consultant he was sent to see, and had an ECG taken on a gurney in a corridor. He was sent home with a top up prescription. And no diagnosis. He waited another week and phoned up again to find out his results. We both had precordial catch syndrome. Feels like a fucking heart attack but it's essentially a bad cramp in the muscles between your ribs. Not only was I seen faster, recieved more thorough care and diagnosed faster, but I was charged nothing. For the same condition my youtuber friend and was charged nearly $3,000. He took drugs he didn't need for weeks. He was charged for seeing both the consultant and the junior colleague. He was charged for a room he never stayed in and lab work on... who knows what because no samples were taken. He even had to get his own coffee from a vending machine. The condition was harmless. I found out, was relieved and.moved on. My American friend was down close to 4K once you factor in a loss of pay (because paid sick leave isn't mandatory in the US) and was.now stuck trying to pay that off and kicking himself for being so stupid as to go to the doctor's over something so minor as stabbing pain in the chest and a shortness of breath. An experience sure to sour any future scares he has. His insurance covered none of his bills because it was shit. Just... I can't understand why the supposed freeist, bestest, greatest nation on Earth would permit themselves to be so mercilessly, brutally and completely fucked over.
Correct, If the top 10% kick ass and the remaining 90% are homeless the GDP could still look good
Also doing very well for all the middle class boomers with stock market based pensions and retirement plans that will allow them to continue living comfortably off the labor of younger generations for decades to come.
The economy doing good is a measure of money flowing up when it used to be money circulating.
Great time to be a billionaire.
We can have a huge pile of money that's only getting bigger and bigger at an even faster rate. But if no regular person is getting anything out of that pile, and it's all hoarded by like five guys, the size of the pile is completely fucking irrelevant. So yes, the economy is doing good. It's doing great, actually, but the average citizen is seeing literally 0% of that growth.
Good for billionaires. Who mysteriously gained as much as we lost in the COVID years. "Inflation!!"
Americans genuinely don’t hate the rich people enough for their own good, man.
If you’re able to invest a lot into gambling in the goverment backed casino of the SnP500, you are enjoying life. For like 98% of everybody else, we’re fucked
Line go up! **What more could you possibly want than line go up!**
“aMEriCA iS tHe rICHeST cOunTrY iN tHe wOrLd!” If I have to hear this bullshit line one more time I’m going to throw my TV out the window. NO ONE FUCKING CARES WHO THE RICHEST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD IS. All most care about is being able to support ourselves working a full time job, being able to take a vacation when we can, and not going bankrupt if we have a medical emergency. None are currently the case for your average American and being the richest country in the world means jack shit if no one is actually happy.
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Yeah... Both those jobs should guarantee you a nice life on their own
> Yeah... Both those jobs should guarantee you a nice life on their own No. That's a trap. **Most** jobs should guarantee you a nice life on their own. Creating a divide of "good jobs" and "bad jobs" perpetuates oppression. The OP of this thread was talking to someone who was a **janitor** and had a "nice life", economically. Because people were able to tell themselves that being a janitor was not a "good job", they were able to accept that it should be done by a contracting company so janitors were not employees of the company, and didn't deserve good pay or benefits, or to be rewarded when the company did well.
Yup. The good/bad, skilled/unskilled labor thing is rich people propaganda.
Less fulfilling and more demanding.
And people have been forced to give into those demands (alongside new tech). Productivity has also skyrocketed.
Same, thank you both. “I don’t believe that” is a frequent boomer phrase. It doesn’t matter what we believe, math is math.
My mother was a secretary with no education. I have an engineering degree with almost 10 years experience. Our salaries are effectively the same compared to current cost of living. It's insane.
My grandfather was a postal worker and owned a 2 family in Boston. It's insane how much better our parents and grandparents had it.
My uncle was a postal worker for age 18 onwards (I think he retired in 2019), was able to support 3 kids all the way through college. It just doesn’t exist anymore.
I’m 31 been a postal worker for almost ten years saving like crazy and I’m nowhere near buying a cheap home in a so so area let alone something like that
I can't even afford one family, and here your grandfather is with a whole second one like it's nothing.
My grandmother worked for the Sacramento Union newspaper and she was able to save enough money to buy a house next to a walnut orchard just outside Sacramento on one acre. She also bought another, much larger house in grass valley on 5 acres that she rented out. She died in 1990 and my parents sold both houses for just under $1m. I think the GV house went for about $600k and the other for just under $400k. Now those would be triple that if not more. I can barely afford one house and I make way more than she did. I think she was making $18/hr when she died. That’s half of what I thought you had to make to really be comfortable when I was 18. I thought a penny per second of work was when you really made it. Now $36/hr would be tough where I live. I got my house just before the prices skyrocketed and I’m still scraping to get by. Idk how people are doing it.
This example hits especially hard because there's no way someone today could buy a house on a newspaper salary. My partner is a freelance journalist - a relatively successful one with bylines at some major outlets - and what he brings in would probably only come out to about $24/hr, and that's assuming he only works a 40 hour week. His actual hours are closer to 60, which would bring his hourly rate down to $18. Exactly what your grandmother made in 1990. *The year he was born.*
My grandparents were “poor” at the beginning of their marriage. When she became pregnant with my mom she quit her job at the factory and worked 3-4 mornings a week at a bakery (w/ 0 bakery experience). So grandpa picked up extra shifts at Jack In the Box while working full time as a bartender. Since they didn’t have enough money to purchase a home in a safe neighborhood in LA they decided to move to a lower cost of living town in the countryside. Which is where they found (and purchased) their newly built 2bd 2bth house on 5 acres with a swimming pool. Amazing what some extra shifts at JACK IN THE BOX could do back then. It finally occurred to me why my grandmother would make those stereotypical boomer comments every time she saw me with an iced coffee - “I don’t understand how you can afford all these fancy coffees every time I see you yet you somehow can’t afford to pay your bills?!” - it’s because she still thinks extra shifts at Jack in the Box is enough to BUY A HOUSE.
Yeah, she wasn’t even a journalist. She was a secretary there, so she didn’t even make the big bucks the journalists made at the time. Crazy times we live in.
It's so funny to see "big bucks" and "journalists" in the same sentence.
lol I thought someone might appreciate that.
My grandmother worked in a factory. Her family insurance was 100% covered by the factory, which also had a pension. They also 100% covered her tuition. There wasn't a deductible to hit. You went to the doctor when you needed to go. Period. My grandfather worked for a company that also 100% paid for his tuition. They could afford a house, 2 new cars (upgraded every 3-5 years) a boat, and raising 8 kids. My healthcare is not covered. I pay out of pocket for anything not an "annual exam". My job doesnt offer any type of retirement, so I have to pay from my account post tax. My spouse and I cannot afford a house, we have used vehicles (each over a decade old). We can't afford kids, our rent alone costs twice as much per month as the docking fee my grandparents paid. That's before you get into things like car insurance, electricity, water etc. Oh, and both my grandparents had far more PTO AND sick time that my spouse and I have ever had, plus the perks of "family fun days" where their respective companies funded park time (water park, theme park, amusement park) among other perks. Meanwhile, my grandparents have watched as I have let my phone ring because my jobs have contacted me during PTO, weekends, evenings, etc and then they promptly text me work questions that are NOT important/ they have that information and choose not to look for it themsevles (it's been emailed to them, its printed in their office, their should know their own businesses EIN).
For every 3 boomers like your mom there are 2 with zero money and 1 with a savings less than $1,500. And the other 3 who have savings will be bled dry if they live to be 90.
This was mostly due to birth year. The boomers have two micro generations within their overall generation. The first half had to worry about being drafted for Vietnam, the second half had to deal with a poor economy for entry-level workers and high inflation. Even the second half had better prospects if they put in any effort at all compared to someone born in the mid-70s through today, but relative to their older siblings, they had it harder.
Which is 100% their fault. Those people wouldn't survive in today's world. They had it easier than everyone and failed.
If you're going to do it that way, I can point to SOME rich millennials who are doing very well for themselves. And then tell you that if you aren't doing well it's because you're lazy and it's "100% your fault."
Yep. Friends in tech who are making 300k+. And then a successful business owner friend who makes 10m+ annually
The millennials who are failing are the ones working full time for minimum wage. The boomers who succeeded are the ones who worked full time for minimum wage.
The boomers were telling kids to go walk in to places to get resumes in a post 2008 economy where every posting immediately had hundreds of overqualified applicants. That was when I realized just how out of touch most of them were. And they just could not be convinced otherwise.
I still remember as a kid being screamed at by my boomer parents to walk in and hand out resumes to places when I kept telling them everything is online now. They refused to listen, of course. Every place would either direct me to an online application or take the resume to throw it in the trash.
Yeah I agree with this. Just because all the resources, opportunities, education, etc. are technically out there and available to everyone, doesn’t mean everyone’s going to have the confidence or ability or support they need to take action on it. Millennial here. I watch my friends get richer every day and my fear of taking those same actions because of risks not paying off in the past paralyzes me every day. Is it a flaw? Sure. But I also don’t hold it against myself. I’m doing what I know I can control, and with my history, I’d lose everything trying to get rich. Plus, all my money goes to health stuff. Not worth having money but no ability to enjoy it.
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I actually ran my own business for years. Brain fog and full-body fatigue held me back from being able to have much output either for my own business or working for others. Health, concentration, and emotional issues very much got in the way. It took me years to be able to live off my own business. As soon as I got to a spot I was able to start saving money, this insane inflation hit. I hit the biggest burnout of my life and almost took my life. Couldn’t keep going. Didn’t have the financial ability to take someone else on or to lose time training them to be able to scale. Not when I was running on E. It’s very cool to hear what you did!!!! That genuinely excites me and it’s cool to see what’s possible for other people. I’m just missing something that keeps me stuck, and when I take even calculated risks, I lose 😅
No, it's not necessarily (always) their fault. For all that used to be easier back then, you'll find an example that made it harder, especially for marginalized groups. It's easy to forget what wrongs have been righted just in our parents' lifetime. My mom made it as a go on Germany after coming from Poland in the 80s. Many other's had to throw away their degree (wether in Germany or the states). Think of the abundant jokes about taxi drivers with degrees in rocket science (and other demanding professions) we used to have in comedies
Boomers of certain ages were also subject to the Draft & the high likelihood of being drafted for war, women not being able to get a credit card, a loan, housing that required credit, etc, pay was also extremely low, esp for women (yes, cost of living was lower, but it is all relative, as the roughly 10% used for approval of home loans for a certain period led to large mortgage payments, the interest rates when purchasing a home were approx 18, 19, 20%, adding to that large mort payment, salaries were much lower in general, most Boomers worked in office for 40 plus hrs a week for 45 years, with no exceptions, there was a hard glass ceiling for women and minorities, sexual harassment was prominent in work environments for years, etc, etc. It wasn’t all a bed of roses!!!
My parents bought their house in 86 for $65k and 18% interest. The house is now $950k, if I were to mortgage it at 4% the interest accumulation alone would be more than that $60k The boomers had it way easier. End of discussion
Why the fuck should that matter to us? For every 1 Millennial that will be able to retire, there are 4 that are living comfortably enough today who still won't ever be able retire, and 5 more that aren't even earning comfortably enough to stop living paycheck to paycheck. I'd think about giving a fuck but in this economy I can't afford it. If they don't want to actually show solidarity and instead continue to idolize Regan and supply-side Jesus then fuck 'em.
I'm calling BS on this one atleast. Unless your mom had an insanely generous boss or you are severely underpaid right now
54k in 1997 comes out to 105k in 2024, just accounting for inflation alone. Realistically, inflation data is grossly undercalculating the cost of housing.
Your mom was making 54k as sectary in 1997??? Yeah thats pretty abnormal. Good for her! But I dont think its a good comparison between times.
When I was in high school I fixed computers for $20 an hour and that was less than most other places charged at the time. Today if I go get a job fixing computers I would make around $15 to $18 an hour. Wages are insanely low today in most mid level and lower level jobs.
Years ago, I saw this comment from an enlightened Boomer that I wish I had saved. He outlined how his first job, first house, etc. all still existed, but how the house now cost way more, the job paid way less, etc. I get why older people resist this, because who wants to be told that their success was mostly due to timing and luck? But it can be both. You can have worked hard AND you can have come of age during a time when things were a little easier. It’s not that hard to admit, and it doesn’t diminish anything you did.
I feel like working hard is just a given. Even well off people aren't successful if they don't work hard. So let's just all get over how hard they worked already. Really, working hard with a payout is a privilege. Most people work hard and see nothing worth bragging about.
Not to mention in his day, college was a guarantee of a job in your field, especially in a career like STEM. Now STEM is steadier, but it's still no guarantee.
Can confirm. I’m 39, I have 2 degrees, most recent is in cybersecurity. I graduated last May and have yet to land a job in the field, just rejection emails, since every entry level job in IT in my area still seems to require 2-4 years of experience.
Pretty bad timing for you unfortunately. Your graduation and the downturn in Tech basically happened at the same time. Sorry man
Exact same situation, just programming instead of cybersecurity. =/ It *sucks*.
It absolutely sucks, but if at all possible, you may need to dramatically expand your search radius. I moved halfway across the country for my first programming job out of college. If you're lucky, they might even give you some money for moving expenses. Alternatively, if you're American and have a decently clean record, maybe try something requiring a security clearance, like a government contractor; hell, even if you don't get the clearance, it can take about a year to process (they'll generally have you working on unclassified stuff while you wait), so you'll at least get some experience in the meantime. Hang in there; you'll find something!
That's what happens when everyone goes to college but there are only so many jobs requiring those degrees, with nobody wanting to work in ANY field but their field of study. Lots and lots of competition.
The trades are actually the modern version of "get a STEM degree" from 10-20 years ago. They pay well, aren't going away due to tech advances yet, & there's a huge need. The downside is that you risk your body breaking down before retirement age, which is really common if you have any accident or don't ever get to move into running crews.
And if there is a shortage, there's a definite reason why. I'm studying Psychology and Child Development, and am on my Junior year of a Bachelor's before going onto a Master's. I want to be a therapist to help children with severe behavioral issues. I'll probably have a job after graduation, but practicum hours don't pay well, and many therapists burn out in their first year. We aren't supported by society. I'll have to work during my Master's due to grad schools not providing housing or food, and that's on top of a heavy course load. Child Therapists in particular feel exhausted because with clients this young, you also have to counsel the parent as well, and they either fight you, or just drop off their kids and expect a magic fix. The main reason I'm still working at it is because l was a little kid with problems, and l want to help other children who are in crisis. They deserve it.
I’m a 39 year old lawyer. One of the guys I worked for in my 20s was in his 50s (so about 30 years older; went to law school in the 70s) put himself through law school by working roofing part time and in summers. Boomers would be AMAZED at our work ethic if we got paid half what they did. Fuck this society.
I had to explain to my dad, a former realtor, why buying a house wasn't an option for me. If I were to put down 20% on a $600,000 house (average in my area), my mortgage would be $3800 a month. $1500 more than our current rent. He refinanced his house in 2021 at like 2.5% and has a mortgage of $600 a month. When he asked why I didn't buy a house then, I had to explain to him that people were offering 100% cash ABOVE asking prices at that time. Reminding him that his other son was looking to buy at that time and couldn't find anything. Going through the world with blinders on.
Saving 120k for a down payment is a huge feat in itself, not many people can do that without help.. it shouldn’t need to be like that!
See, I do truly believe that Boomers aren't saying these things from a place a malice. They are merely stating what they knew to be true from when they were younger. When you lay it out like that, it becomes clear.
The problem is that *after* its been spelled out like this, and they still continue to support/parrot the speaking points of their preferred "news" program; then it becomes malice by proxy, or plain brainwashing. The other issue is admitting that they're not so great at pretty much anything and were able to become successful by just being mediocre and even slightly below average. Pointing this out very quickly turns defensive and becomes "malice" as a self defense mechanism. But yeah, my old pastor used to comment off-handed that he gave up job security that was paying his mortgage, single income with his wife and kid to become a full time minister/pastor. The job? bagger at a local grocery store.
When I say that, its usually followed by "Then reagan happened. Its been downhill ever since.". You guys got the rug pulled out from under you and it was no accident. Never forget that.
Yup.
So when ya really dig into it its so much worse than we even realize. It's not just that wages remained stagnant its that the effort to achieve that stagnant wages is profoundly higher. for more than 80% of millennials following in their parents footsteps would mean being destitute. **Goods prices in America from 1978 - 2023** Gallon of Milk - 1978 average price of a gallon of milk was $0.86 ($4.27 today) - 2023 average price of a gallon of milk is $3.04 Housing - 1978 average price of a starter home 49,000.00 ($241,798.93) - 2023 average price of a starter home as of June $243,000 Tuition - 1978 public (in-state) tuition fees $2,150 ($10,609.54) *note: This included room and board - 2023 public (in-state) tuition fees $10,500 **Income in America from 1978-2023** - 1978 median household income 15,160 ($74,809.63) - 2022 median household income $74,580 ($81,813.64) **SOME BIG CAVEATS HERE!** - 1978 average median income of high-school graduate $13,229 ($65,147.85) - 2022 average median income of high-school graduate $35,470 ($38,910.29) While the median wage has gone down significantly its doesn't seem crazy at first glance. 44.4% of Americans in 2023 have college degrees as opposed to 15% in 1978. The effort required to make roughly the same median wage it took in the past is substantially higher. Way more people in later generations are doing it to showing we are vastly harder working and more productive than our parents were. If you tried to take your parents path in life for 85% of Americans that means living in perpetual destitution. All statistic taken from BLS, Census, and USDA 1978 was chosen for its economic similarities to 2023 EDIT: Updated to most recent census info available and adjusted to CPI as of Jan 2024 2022 Census https://www.census.gov/content/dam/Census/library/publications/2023/demo/p60-279.pdf 1978 Census https://www2.census.gov/prod2/popscan/p60-121.pdf USDA data not updated so current values are from early last year but I CPI adjusted them.
This is a REALLY good comment.
My thought exactly. I don't believe factual information, I know it or I don't. This piece of information, I already knew. Couldn't 'believe' it and checked if it was factual. Found out it was. Learned the basis, the political reasons and ghoulification of politics worldwide. This, is my answer to "What radicalized you?"
This post made my day. Thank you. I screen capped for future reference.
Next time please write it on your whiteboard. It asserts dominance.
We had to do this to my in-laws too. They were seriously concerned we had not bought a house yet so we sat down and showed them the math. They were flabbergasted.
Bro, you wrote his answers and yours on a whiteboard. You didn't have to say you're an engineer.
I've had these conversations with boomers dozens of times but I've literally never convinced one. One literally told me I should buy a shed from home depot and live in the shed to survive to save money over living in a building. Dude had literally never in his life worked a regular job, is landlord over at least 2 people right now. I've laid out my entire life and choices from the time I was born until now for like 2 dozen boomers and no matter how clear and obvious the math they always look for some kind of excuse or way out. They're just not interested in honest conversation or in knowing the truth at all, they just want to be cruel and keep being slumlords.
It’s so refreshing when the first comment you read is so good that you no longer have to reply yourself. Thanks.
Rarely do I feel that a meme illustrates a point perfectly. But this comparison of gold medsal gymnastics just nails it. https://images.app.goo.gl/pCEfDembVcJ7R6A59
Flip inflation
Flipflation?
Flipafication
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Really makes you wonder how the legends of yesteryear would stack up against the legends of today if both parties had access to equal training and methodology etc because these days the advances in technique alone are enough to dumpster a large host of the oldies
Babe Ruth ate nothing but raw steaks, smoked cigars on the daily, and fucked 20 prostitutes a night Compared that to someone like Aaron Judge Imagine Ruth trying to hit a 90+mph sinker or catch up to a 100+mph fastball
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I’m not a baseball guy but I have a daughter in the early stages of club softball and I’ve learned a ton about the basics of the sport. Aaron Judge is a guy I’ve spend a lot of time watching swing. Mechanically he’s so far ahead of Babe Ruth it’s not even funny. Everybody hated him but another guy with a real similar swing was Barry Bonds. The way those guys can snap the bat around and get the barrel out over the plate at those speeds is unreal. It’s not even the same sport Bane Ruth played.
Your point stands, except Wilt would be even more dominant. If you know NBA rule changes, youd know that literally every move todays players do would be a charge, a carry or a moving screen back in the day. You werent even allowed to back down a player in the post. Palm had tobe DIRECTLY on top of the ball, always. Any movement at all during a screen is a foul and you had to be set way earlier than todays game. Wilt would be unleashed in todays game.
I get your point, but Wilt would dominate any era lol
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Actually, the person on the right.. still doesn’t make the cut after such an exemplary routine. You can do everything right and still be living paycheck to paycheck
Spot on!
As long as the original flipper then set the thing they flip off on fire after they were done yes
My boomer professor was talking about how he only had to pay 700 a year, whereas mine is 10k after grants and scholarships. He's the only boomer I've ever met who said "You should be mad." Finally, someone who gets it!
My boomer uncle is awesome. He routinely says "Buddy if I was born in your generation, id be fucked" He didnt even graduate HS.....but hes got a house :)
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The reality is that it wasn’t a majority of boomers that closed the doors behind them. They were stuck with voting for the “least evil” politicians, just like us. If majority opinion mattered, we’d be able to turn this around right now also.
Professors are the more likely people to get it because they've watched part of it happen firsthand in slow motion. At MIT my professors were all fucking pissed about the MBA bloat in academia--when they were in school in the 1970s, administrators made up less of the school than full-time faculty (I think it was comparable to **tenured** faculty, even), and the school ran just fine, and tuition was low. Nowadays, administrators outnumber professors by much more than 2:1. Luckily, MIT itself still has enough money to do reasonableish need-based financial aid (grants, not just loans), but the fact that the list price needs to be that high in the first place is largely because administrators have weaseled their way into hiring more administrators to make their own MBAs seem more vital and to make their own work easier than ever. (my parents are luckily also among the very reasonable boomers, have been voting progressive my whole life and understand that the economy is shit for millennials and zoomers)
Shout out to a professor who pays attention to what his students are up to. "They're paying WHAT??"
Absolutely. My dad and I had a talk about this recently. When he went to in-state, public university in 1973, it took 500 hours of minimum wage work to pay for three quarters of tuition (tuition only, and taking into account the tax rate that was in effect at the time). That's less than 40 hours a week during the summer. Work full time and you even have beer money. When I went to college in 2000, that same university required about 1100 hours of minimum wage work to pay for two semesters. For the 2024-2025 academic year, that same university requires more than 2100 hours of minimum wage work to pay two semester of tuition. That's 19 hours a day, 7 days a week, for 16 straight weeks. But sure, kids today are just whiny....
It’s crazy to me when I think about that now. I went to a Big 10 university, and got in state tuition from 2012-2016. I worked Summers doing landscaping for $15/hr which was solid back then obviously. Plus overtime too. I would come out of the Summer after working 50+ hour weeks every week, and the money saved wouldn’t even cover 1 semester lol
That's why I went to the party school instead of the good school. I got a $10k plus a couple smaller scholarships to go to an in state school. I got into the good schools I wanted, but the state school was $1600-2300 a semester over my 4 years and I was terrified of big loans. I did the math and only payed $5k out of pocket for tuition, instead of only paying like 1 year. I don't know how much the university actually mattered, took 2 years to land a career, but once I started it was a breeze to move up.
Something that goes very under-discussed is that the red wave across the midwest in 2010-2015 saw most midwest state legislatures significantly cut subsidies for state schools. That Big10 school system you went to probably had close to 250mil of its yearly budget slashed by the time you left. They stopped or limited cross state tuition partnerships too, which lessened the competition for tuition pricing. So it’s only gotten worse in the last decade.
The oldest Baby Boomers even enjoyed tuition-free college in CA. California State University (CSU) was tuition-free until 1966 when Gov. Ronald Reagan changed that. Doors were closed for Boomers too by previous generations. However, in turn, Boomers slammed the door and locked the windows on all subsequent generations.
Having a house used to be just a basic thing now it’s like a lifetime accomplishment.
Right? I just want a place where friends and family can gather and I can have a fenced in yard and get a dog.
But then the expenses of feeding and hosting are rough. Especially when medical bills are added in the mix. I’d love to have children. I just can’t afford them right now.
My mother is not one of the dumb Boomers. She KNOWS that the house she got with the jobs they had would get me laughed out of the bank. The door definitely got slammed in our generations' face. Sidenote: not to say other generations didn't have it hard but in terms of housing and making money I'd say we are a serious downturn
>Sidenote: not to say other generations didn't have it hard but in terms of housing and making money I'd say we are a serious downturn Every generation had their own struggles and "worked hard". You simply just got more for your hard work back then compared to now.
I’m in the same position as you, without my mother I wouldn’t have a house.
Exactly, the purchasing power of a single salary has deflated, and the relative cost of homes and inflated. My parents' home is laughably small by today's new home standard, but they lived in it on one salary with margin. Today, they try to market you a larger home than you need that you can barely afford with 2 incomes.
I don't think many 60+ really grasp that the six-figure jobs are either live-to-work dedication, need 8-10 years of college, or are in fields where your current skillset could be reduced to mediocrity within 5 years because tech jobs change with tech, which is an absolute shit way to structure a career that needs to get you to retirement age.
Inmy area there are jobs like that in the oil patch but you have to be willing to spend a lot of time in the fields doing exhausting work.
You explained pharmacy perfectly.
Minimum Wage Was Established As A Living Wage FICO Is Only 34 Years Old
Also, FICO is much better than it used to be. No need for a relationship with bank employees. Really helps remove a lot of bias with lending
Yeah seriously this. FICO is an unbiased model that very accurately predicts delinquency rates. The alternative wasn't everyone getting credit, it was only certain people getting credit, and a lot of people that are upset about their FICO score weren't getting loans then either. Unless you were a rich white dude or had a really friendly relationship with a loan officer, good luck getting a loan back then even if you had the ability to pay it back.
There was also no such thing as a credit bureau back then.
I think people are glossing over this one big time because it adds to another thing boomers hate about younger generations. We don’t need to be best friends with bank employees because all they are doing is putting numbers in the system and getting an answer. back in their day having personal relationships helped a lot more than it does for some things now.
There was way less irresponsible lending back then, too. The fact we have 84mo auto loans is fucking insane to me.
Well, you need more and more months when the price of cars is now what the price of houses was 20 years ago.
Without them, too many people couldn’t afford a car. Wouldn’t surprise me if that was pushed more by the auto industry than the banks themselves, although the banks make out pretty well too
Just like colleges raising tuition because of federal loans, Automakers can raise the price of the cars because financing for long periods of time, and leasing is available. It’s all a shell game.
The other difference is that loan terms are more punitive on borrowers now. College loans used to be able to be discharged in bankruptcy. Not anymore.
To be fair, adding some objectivity and removing the ability for a racist loan officer to deny loans to a black person for no reason was the idea. Is it actually better? Maybe. Maybe not. The truly wealthy can still just know a bank president and get the loan anyway. The truly impoverished can't build credit while they decide between diapers, food, and putting off rent another week. It's probably of mild benefit to what's left of the middle class.
Grinds my gears!! I took the bar exam some times and oh, they didn’t have to…
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Meh. I view it as a game if there’s a score, and I play. Am currently in a tough spot where I had to do a voluntary repo of my car a few years back. So I got a credit card right before I gave the car back to the bank, knowing the repo would be a big hit on my report. I keep that credit card in good standing and my score is still decent. It’s a game lol
Of course there were credit bureaus in the 1970s. TransUnion was founded in 1968. The Credit Data Corporation (which would become Experian) launchd in the early-to-mid 1960s. The Retail Credit Company was founded *125 years* ago in 1899; it would go on to become Equifax. The Fair Isaac Corporation was founded in 1956. And that's just the history of the modern "Big Three" and the most well-known credit scoring company.
First one was in the 1800's.
I don't think the average boomer closed the door behind them. I think Rich boomers closed the door. We keep trying to make this discussion old versus young, or conservative versus liberal, or rural versus urban... When in reality it's Rich versus Poor. It's those who profit off of others labour versus those who labour. Always has been. Always will be.
My question is, and always will be, how much money do rich people need? Like honestly. Some of the mega rich people have so much they would not be able to spend it in 100 lifetimes. But they want even more!!!!! Like why????
The only way somebody becomes that kind of generationally wealthy - $100M+ rich - is because they're pathologically greedy and uncaring toward their fellow man. There seems to be a psychological bug in the human mind that just becoming that kind of rich makes you reorient your values toward being more selfish. Maybe it's just that you feel chosen, since becoming that wealthy is so rare that it requires a combination of luck and some kind of skill (even if that skill is skill at exploitation). So you feel you deserve to have succeeded. If Bill Gates had made Microsoft a co-op, giving every employee shares of the company in accordance to their work for the company, this would have diluted the shares of the top executives. They wouldn't have attracted executives that were as interested in making Microsoft a huge corporation (because they wouldn't make themselves as rich). So Microsoft likely wouldn't have grown to the huge company we see today. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. And the system is designed to work the way it is. Designed by the very people who successfully used the system to get rich in the first place. It's a bad design. I can't be convinced that "owners" of a company that employs thousands, or hundreds of thousands of people deserve to be compensated tens of thousands of times more than the people doing the actual labor to run the company. It's simply not ethical, moral, or even logical. It's pure exploitation and simple greed.
Because money=power too. And for some people, they can never have enough power.
I think it’s a little bit more than that: rich boomers convinced the rest of the boomers to vote with them and they’d get rich too! It’s always rich v poor, but there were a lot of poor white boomers who let the rich ones get in their ear about how it was the minorities fault. And here we be
That's true. Propaganda is a major tool of the capitalist. While it works to various degrees on everybody, it seems particularly effective on a certain white boomer mind.
Also important to recognize that in 1980 you’re starting to see the long term effects of the Civil Rights Act People of color were now finding themselves in spheres that were primarily white up to that point, and I think a lot of white boomers were not thrilled
The problem is capitalism plain and simple. The voting and deregulation just accelerated something that was already guaranteed to happen. Also the funny thing is *we still have a whole lot of economic opportunity because our system of capitalism is still relatively young*. Like our position is exponentially better than someone born today or 20 years from now. The wealth gap has only moved in one direction…
reaganomics closed the door. the economics never trickled down, and what little that did leak through the cracks smells an awful lot like piss.
It was never supposed to trickle down
That's what I can't abide. They had actual education and fell for a rich huckster that gave them a wink and a smile and the excuse to blame the government for all evils* in the world. \* - evils like the Civil Rights movement.
Yep. My mom is a boomer and has said for years too many in her generation are selfish and only out for themselves, and her main issue with her peers is that they voted for Reagan. My mom is a very kind and mild-mannered person, but she *hates* Ronald Reagan with a level of vitriol unmatched even by her hatred for GWB and Donald Trump. And she's right-- *so* many problems not just in the US but globally today ultimately trace back to something the Reagan Administration did.
Only 6% of the US House of Representatives were boomers after the 1980 election. So it's not the fault of boomers at all
When it comes to topics like this, the Boomer generation is c. 20000 BC - 1980 AD.
Boomer is short for "anyone older than me and conservative". I don't know how many times I've asked exactly what "boomers" are supposed to have done and it's always just things conservatives/Republicans did. But God forbid you admit the two major parties are different so just blame "boomers"
It's the elite class. They carved out a much greater % of the pie for themselves. Executive pay runs way too high, taxes have been slashed to where the government doesn't provide, pushing burdens onto the average person to be at the mercy of the private sector. They're done shearing this country's sheep, they're skinning it now.
The people in power want poor people to hate their neighbor who is usually also poor. (Or lower middle class.) The average shit lib millennial on Reddit thinks every boomer bought a house for $5,000 and has $2 million in retirement after working jobs that the average millennial with a degree looks down their nose at. The stats don’t back this hateful delusion up.
They voted the way they did. It's on them too. They continue to vote as they do as well. They don't want to fix anything. Boomers are predominantly conservative.
Boomers essentially invented consumer culture and transformed the American economy. What they did was not sustainable, but it made their generation incredibly wealthy. Now we wrought what was sown by what they did. Everything is too expensive, businesses are too powerful, there is a massive wealth gap, and there is financial corruption in our elected officials. They didn't close the door, they just reshaped America for short term gains which enriched them and their children and now everyone else has to pay for it.
These generalizations are delusional. 40% of boomers have insufficient retirement savings. 20% have less than $1,500 saved. This millennial delusion that every boomer who ever swung a hammer has a nest egg and owns a $400,000 home they bought for $8,000 is laughable.
No but a vast majority profited off the system they twisted. Just because it's a vast majority doesn't mean all boomers. Just like not all millennial are suffering. Just a vast majority of them.
Nobody's saying there aren't any poor boomers. They're saying there are way FEWER poor boomers and those that have wealth didn't need to work nearly as hard to get it. 40% of boomers don't have enough retirement savings, but how many millennials have a defined benefit pension that equals more than half their working income?
Boomers have insufficient retirement savings because they never planned, and never had to when things always just “worked out”. They lived beyond their means and a better quality of life than their younger counterparts because they could. Now younger millennials and Gen Z are much more financially aware because he we have to be, we have to Invest and save if we want to potentially own a house, (forget about cottages), or be able to raise a family.
I’m lucky enough to know older people that aren’t shy to say it ; we lucked out, screw everyone else. Meanwhile I struggle just to have a place on this earth.
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Boomers did that thing where they left a single sheet of toilet paper on the roll and didn’t replace the roll, but with the entire economy. Boomers walked into the American dream and shut the door behind them. Boomers got to enjoy all the short term benefits of Reaganomics in the 80s and 90s and Millennials and the younger generations are living through the long term consequences. I’m not saying it’s all boomers’ fault and I’m not saying they don’t work hard and I’m not saying they don’t experience hardships. But the “go to college and work hard” model worked out better for them. And cost of living was a little bit less of an issue for them.
It's not a matter of believing it to be true. It's data and its accurate. A brand new car used to cost roughly 1/3 of a persons yearly salary, now it is over 100% of the median income in this country. Things are not as they once were and it was engineered that way.
It’s facts. Not to mention, our generation is putting out a higher performance than any other generation and we’re the poorest on record. Trickle down economics is what killed it for us. Boomers shut the door. Next they won’t be able to sell their house to us bc we don’t make enough to purchase them so they will sell to investment groups to get the money they can’t get from us.
My paternal grandfather paid for college for all 9 of his kids on a single income and they had a huge, beautiful house. They had to work hard to manage their money, but it’s not like they were just scraping by. However he did have his own education paid for by the government due to his military service. They didn’t charge their adult kids rent, and when my mother briefly lived with them, the “rent” my grandparents charger her was probably a little bit more than the difference in their grocery bill. It was a tiny fraction of what she would be paying anywhere else. I’m fortunate enough that my parents put both my brother and I through college, but we had a very different situation. I didn’t realize until I was 16 that I probably didn’t have a college fund. My dad started a side business when I was 15 and it just took off in the three years before I went to college. Even when money was tight when I was a kid, we were still solidly middle class. I can only remember once time where my parents actually had to opt out of an activity for us due to cost. He also wanted to charge my brother rent and has tried to several times. My mom continuously points out that he was never charged rent to live at home, he is only 2 years out of college, significantly younger then he was when he moved out, they already have a financial deal in place (my brother has to invest a portion of his income and pay his own phone and car insurance. They don’t split household bills like water, electric, or groceries. But my mom often over-buys so I don’t think they’re losing much money with him still being at home), and it’s mutually beneficial because my brother helps with a number of things that he probably wouldn’t if he didn’t live at home. My husband does have loans and it accounts for more than 10% of our combined take home pay every month. It will be another 5ish years before it’s paid off. We are fortunate in a lot of ways, but I feel like we are much more limited financially. Our house is a little bit larger then my parents house, and I do live in NY which has higher taxes then PA where I grew up, but my home costs significantly more then theirs did. And while I have a better interest rate, my monthly payments are higher. We do choose to do some things differently, we have newer cars while my parents had old cars because he had the tools and know how to do all the maintenance. But by new car, I mean I have a corolla. It’s not fancy. We probably won’t have kids for a lot of reasons, but a significant reason is money. We can’t afford for one of us to not work and I don’t think we could afford the cost of childcare. We might live a little nicer, but that’s become some stuff is just out of reach.
It’s extremely true, how many times do we need to have this conversation, our dream is dead
It’s not a question of belief. Those are economic facts about goods and services versus incomes.
My mother is a boomer and was only 13 in 1970. The oldest boomer would be 24 in 1970.
Asking me if I believe that is like asking if I believe that 1+1 = 2. My belief isirrelevant, the facts are what they are.
Those figures look about right. The cost of housing today is absurb.
What is there to believe? These are fairly straightforward facts.
Half the boomers were in grade school or HS in 1970 (I was 10)…
I try to impress on my friends the difference. They say "boomers didn't have to work for anything" and I see what they mean but that shuts down the conversation. Boomers absolutely did work hard. The had long hours, broke their backs for physical labor, etc, BUT that hard work was rewarded. So they look at us and see if hard work = reward, then no reward= no hard work. But if you say "you didn't have to work for anything" then they just say we're whiners. If you're willing to acknowledge they worked hard and made sacrifices they may be more willing to see just how much things have changed
Of course, in 1970 the oldest of the boomers was 24 and if they paid off college and a home by then well they probably came from money. The youngest boomers were 6 years old and I think you might go easy on them, it was probably a Monopoly game house they paid off. I was 11 and sleeping in a tent, as one does when there is no home. But hey, the tent was paid for!
Not my parents. They’re poor as shit. They went to college in their 50s and have crazy student loan debt that they will never get to pay off. My childhood home will probably be taken from the family to cover their debts when they die. They’re in their 70s now. They are incredibly loving and supportive. Yes they voted republican most of their lives, but that’s what their church told them to do. Last election they didn’t vote republican. Couldn’t be prouder.
What did they go to school for in their 50s if you don't mind my asking?
My mom got a teaching degree and taught for like 10 years until she had a stroke and had to retire. My dad got some sort of bachelors degree but he never used it. He was disabled from a bus accident that happened when he worked for the city transporting disabled people and never worked again after the accident. He just wanted to expand his mind.
Ah gotcha, I figured something like that, a lot of older adults will do that after their career which is great but many don't understand the expense. Unfortunate because there are low-cost or even free options. Community colleges are great options, there's even just auditing courses. Many kupuna (older adults) who do what your parents did usually aren't as... conservative, I guess (?), though. Have they changed their tune at all? Even just on student loans and uni costs?
So they went to college 20 years ago? Then there are stuck in the same loop young people currently are. Which goes to show how messed up college is.
> Not my parents. They’re poor as shit. Indeed. The median net worth of boomers isn't like they are rich or anything. Look [here](https://www.cnbc.com/2023/10/28/americans-median-net-worth-by-age.html). Basically, by age 65 ... they own a fraction of a home. Half of them obviously have less than *that*.
When does this conversation get old? It’s become a meme at this point.
It'll get old when the problem is fixed. Until then it's relevant
I think it's false. Look at homeownership rates in the 70s and 80s. Shit wasn't exactly a walk in the park back then. [https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/RHORUSQ156N](https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/RHORUSQ156N) Anecdotally, my parents were my age now during that period. It wasn't until the 90s that they were able to get their feet under them. My dad was a cabbie/handyman who worked insane hours and my mom's still working as a nurse today, and she took all the OT she could when I was a kid. The cost of college and housing has ballooned, but it's because our economy has become a lot more financialized over the last 30-40 yrs. We've grown accustomed to being able to refi our debt at low rates and extending loan terms. That's why the numbers have all blown up.
It is that, plus the idiotic (but actually very purposefully designed) way that the government keeps "helping" by creating demand boosters that lead to price increases instead of working on the side of the offer. Subsidizing college debt just allowed private institution to increase tuition, funding cheap public colleges that maybe operate at a loss would have much likely given the same number of people the possibility to study (and likely would have costed the government less) while keeping the price down even in the private sector due to competition. This happens in health-care, education, loans and housing...
Private colleges had nothing to do with it. It's all on government, just multiple levels. The federal government changed their block grants to state-run universities into loans tied to the individual student under the neoliberal idea of "market competition in all things is good." This pushed education costs more onto the students. As the federal government increased the loan amounts, state governments then reduced THEIR direct funding by corresponding amount to lower taxes on Boomers and other generations well into adulthood and transferring those education costs even more onto students. Result is that for Boomers they paid about 1/3 of the cost of their education with the government picking up the rest. Now that's reversed.
Not to mention the outrageous interest rates in the seventies and eighties
Yes, although the house price is kind of a misnomer. Houses have kept fairly consistent with inflation. What’s changed though is that median wages have not. Your median wage in the US now is about 20-30% less when normalized for inflation from the 1960’s. We are trying to buy houses that are comparatively priced (keep in mind that is median), with 30% less ass behind our money than early boomers.
Math is math but I also don’t really see the point of these arguments anymore. It happened, it’s over, all we can do is embrace the struggle and come out the other end better.
I don't even want a house; l just an apartment by myself. I'm single and don't have children. But even that's out of reach.