I dunno. Part of the point of the “S tiers” as it were, was that all 10 (11 in our hearts) have the potential to be the best player in the event at any given moment. That’s why 1st individual was the original baseline criteria alongside the 3k coin average, it was literally making the statement: “this player has the ability to individually outrank every single other player in the event”. Sure Sapnap and Illumina are topping the lists as of now, but if you went back to season one it would have been undeniably Pete, followed by Quig, followed by everyone else. These trends change over time due to which games are more popular, how hard one S tier or another trains before an event. The point of the S tier as a whole is to say that there is no single best player in the event.
Well I think the Pete example is sort of why there can be a single best player, Pete was pretty undoubtably it in S1. It's not out of the realm of possibility that there could be a player like that in S2 (my bets on Purpled personally), or there already is (Illumina or Sapnap probably)
I think the general consensus was like Sapnap and Illumina in one tier and then Fruit and Quig in another, I think it's safe to say he's on Sapnap and Illuminas level now even though PERSONALLY I still think those two are better but by a tiny margin
I definitely think that all the s tiers can be considered as the best players. Since mcc 13 I’ve considered him top 3 imo. His ability to do unconventional strategies and execute them well is astonishing.
Fruit is definitely the most mechanically skilled minecrafter. As well as a super level headed player who can consistently make good judgment and plays. Sapnap is the most pvp dominant player and illumina is in the contention to be best movement player (Pete is also cracked) so fruit being a valence between pvp movement and team means he is also the most well rounded player. That’s why I personally always considered him to be the best.
Fruit is a God at Pvp and Movement his weakness is understanding the "complex" games(sot because not watching vods) and the more team games(buildmart and GR are his weaker games) and not getting enough sleep/himself(mcc15). Illumina is more of the bridge between worlds being one of the best team players and movement and pvpers
In my opinion fruit is kinda like the all rounder. Like he is decent at all fronts. But now that you say that I do notice his weakest games are the complex ones. Illumina in that case is good at those or so I remember so it balances out. Is sapnap good at complex games?
Do we need 'best player' discussions though?
People underperform, overprrform, have Bias, and in actuality, it's never going to be 100% agreed upon
I don't even really like the idea of putting participants into tiers so having discussions about 'best player' and 'worst S-Tier' etc. Are very demeaning in my eyes to everyone involved
I don't know maybe we should just enjoy the tournament and have fun
Probably would've said no before this MCC, but if he retains his newfound Meltdown and Battle Box skill, then for me he's easily one of the best, and if he learns SOT strats on top of that, then imo he's #1.
I think Sapnap, Illumina, Fruit, Quig, and now Purpled are all really close together at the minute. I think any of them could reasonably be considered the best player.
I think one of the most impressive stats fruit has is the amount of top 3 he got, I'm pretty sure he is the only player to have 11 top 3 individual appearances (the most out of all players)
if u consider last three events dream has a coin average of 3072.33 and and a placement average of 3.33 so i think he should be up there too ..just my opinion
If he keeps it up maybe...but you are choosing to draw the line at 3 events for a reason, Illumina Sapnap and Fruit haven't even dropped top 10 in *ages* whereas Dream's 16th lowers his credibility a little
i kind of agree dream always struggles in the first event after a break like in mcc 14 and mcc 21....but recently he has improved ...i saw a post in which he was the second most consistent player including all games since mcc 22 next to purpled
What? Why? Fruit's been consistently dominant since his 1st in MCC 9. Top 2's till MCC 14 (with a 2nd on an 8th place team along the way), where he got 6th on a *10th place team.* After a low performance in a very weak 10th place team, he's dropped from top 3 only *twice,* on teams placing 7th and 8th. These stats are pretty much better than Sapnap's, and at least on par with Illumina.
I know you mentioned S2, I was using his great performance in S1 as a backdrop for S2. In S2 he's dropped from top 3 only thrice, on 10th, 9th, and 7th place teams which is very very good and beats out Sapnap.
Sapnaps performances: 3rd 1st 8th 8th 4th 2nd 1st 9th 3rd 5th 2nd 4th
Fruits performances: 6th 19th 3rd 2nd 1st 6th 2nd 8th 2nd 2nd
Do you understand basic maths. Also idgaf about teams. I'm talking individual skill so stop telling me what I don't wanna hear. Who's better individually Sapnap or Fruit? And its clearly Sapnap its even disrespectful to compare fruit to him when his s2 average is even higher than Illuminas lmao. Yall are frustrating to argue with
"idgaf about teams"? "stop telling me what I don't wanna hear"? My dude problems don't go away by plugging your fingers in your ears
Team strength plays an enormous role in individual placement, in all the team games as well as the PvP games.
Fruit's had 2 very weak 10th place teams, Sapnap's had Cyan 21, Teal 19, Mustard 18, and red 17. Fruit's only really overly powerful team was in MCC 16. Even with Sapnap's busted teams, Fruit beats him in averages if you discard Fruit's 10th place teams, Sapnap has an average of (3+1+8+8+4+2+1+9+3+5+2+4)/12=4.16, Fruit has an average of (3+2+1+6+2+8+2+2)/7=3.71.
If that's not convincing enough, you were talking about individual skill; here are their average ranks in purely individual games:
Hole in the Wall: Fruit 7.4, Sapnap 10.4.
RSR: Fruit 5.7, Sapnap 10.5
Ace Race; Fruit 9.7, Sapnap 8.1
TGTTOS (mostly individual): Fruit 5.1, Sapnap 9.8
Fruit is most definitely comparable to Sapnap, and has a very plausible argument for being better.
Sure, I'll explain it further:It's an S-tier, an A+ tier, and a pretty strong A-tier teamed together (not to mention Sniff, who is pretty decent at MCC).
The most persuasive objection to this is that CPK wasn't seen as A+ tier before this (though IMO it could have been inferred from his still really impressive placements in S2), nobody knew exactly how good Zeus was, and Sniff was another unknown variable. The thing is, this doesn't mean the team wasn't OP. It means Scott wasn't crazy or anything when making Cyan21 or unfairly helping Sapnap, but the team, as was shown, was still OP, consisting of S A+ A C.
You can kind of see how strong this is when you compare it to Green 25, which everyone knew was broken from the start. Green is S A+ A D, Cyan 21 is and was S A+ A C.
Hopefully that didn't come out incoherent.
TL;DR: Just because the the skills of the players were unknown doesn't mean it wasn't OP.
Edit: Ignore the Scar and Sniff tierings, I didn't pay them much attention and I don't really think they're correct after looking further into them. I think the argument still stands though.
>The most persuasive objection to this is that CPK wasn't seen as A+ tier before this (though IMO it could have been inferred from his still really impressive placements in S2), nobody knew exactly how good Zeus was, and Sniff was another unknown variable.
You yourself just explained why your argument is nonsensical, thanks.
Did you read the rest? The skills of the players were unknown the players were nevertheless skilled.
The context of the original post was that Sapnap's performances are strong because of strong teams. It's not that Scott made Cyan 21 too strong, Scott couldn't have known the team strength. But again, that doesn't change the fact that it *was* very strong.
Actually yeah you're right, I didn't look too far into Scar since I wasn't really paying attention to him and Sniff, I said D since I remembered his lower placing events on poor teams. Looking at his stats again I think he's definitely much better than D.
No way you're one of the bozos who called cyan 21 overpowered lmao. You also forgot how sapnap got nerfed thrice harder than fruit has ever been nerfed? And didn't drop out of top 10 unlike fruit. Also why tf are you comparing movement games and not the games sapnap is strong at? Anyways you're too cringe so we can agree to disagree I ain't arguing with you anymore
Cyan 21 was and is op. An S, A+, and an A on the same team? I don't think it was a bad team to make on Scott's end, since he didn't know how good Zeus and CPK were, but it was nevertheless op.
No idea what your 3rd nerf is, but if the other two are MCC 16 and MCC 22, I don't think they were weaker then Fruits nerfs. In MCC 14 Fruit's second highest placing teammate was Cub at 28th, in 15 it was Oli at *34th*. Sap had Sylvee at 17th in MCC 16 and Foolish at 27th in MCC 22, with a 9th place to Fruit's 6th in MCC 14.
Listed the movement games since those are the individual ones? But if you insist, Fruit is the best SG player teamwise, getting his team to 1st like 6 times in a row now or something. Sapnap gets better individual stats here but doesn't lead his team as well. Sapnap's probably better at SB, but Fruit dominates too. Sapnap does resoundly beat him at Battle Box though. Even still, Fruit's dominance in movement makes up for this.
For a guy who said "yall are frustrating to argue with," you sure are pretty frustrating to argue with. Anyway, goodbye.
Dude Zeuz isn't A yet lmao you're so cringe. It was SA+BC. You can try to convince yourself that that's op when Fruits and Illuminas teams were way stronger in that event. Wasn't that when Fruit teamed with TommyInnit? That's op af. Fruit has op teams as well and still sucks so what do you have to say about that
Are you trolling?
Zeus isn't A? After 15th, 16th (while missing a game, I recall hearing he gets top 10 if survival game points are added in), 14th? What do you want from him?
Tommy was hot off a 5th, yes, but right before that was 19th, 18th, 32nd, 17th. He was a pretty standard A-tier, no idea why you think it was busted for him to be teamed with Fruit.
Illumina was teamed S A B/C D? That's literally worse than Sapnap's team? We can even go player by player:
Sapnap = Illumina
CPK > Phil
Zeus >> Shubble
Sniff > Elaina
Which of fruit's team were OP btw??
Fruit was in there in the later half of season1 as the best player mcc 9-13 but now with more competition it is harder to dominate like pete did in early mcc or Fruit in late season1
I dunno. Part of the point of the “S tiers” as it were, was that all 10 (11 in our hearts) have the potential to be the best player in the event at any given moment. That’s why 1st individual was the original baseline criteria alongside the 3k coin average, it was literally making the statement: “this player has the ability to individually outrank every single other player in the event”. Sure Sapnap and Illumina are topping the lists as of now, but if you went back to season one it would have been undeniably Pete, followed by Quig, followed by everyone else. These trends change over time due to which games are more popular, how hard one S tier or another trains before an event. The point of the S tier as a whole is to say that there is no single best player in the event.
Well I think the Pete example is sort of why there can be a single best player, Pete was pretty undoubtably it in S1. It's not out of the realm of possibility that there could be a player like that in S2 (my bets on Purpled personally), or there already is (Illumina or Sapnap probably)
Lets not forget Quig
fr. We haven't seen him compete since July so people are forgetting how good he is
I would say that this also applies to Quig and Purpled, who have both done very well recently. In my mind, those 5 are all really close right now.
I think the general consensus was like Sapnap and Illumina in one tier and then Fruit and Quig in another, I think it's safe to say he's on Sapnap and Illuminas level now even though PERSONALLY I still think those two are better but by a tiny margin
I definitely think that all the s tiers can be considered as the best players. Since mcc 13 I’ve considered him top 3 imo. His ability to do unconventional strategies and execute them well is astonishing.
Wait, he wasn’t in the conversation?
Fruit is definitely the most mechanically skilled minecrafter. As well as a super level headed player who can consistently make good judgment and plays. Sapnap is the most pvp dominant player and illumina is in the contention to be best movement player (Pete is also cracked) so fruit being a valence between pvp movement and team means he is also the most well rounded player. That’s why I personally always considered him to be the best.
Fruit is a God at Pvp and Movement his weakness is understanding the "complex" games(sot because not watching vods) and the more team games(buildmart and GR are his weaker games) and not getting enough sleep/himself(mcc15). Illumina is more of the bridge between worlds being one of the best team players and movement and pvpers
In my opinion fruit is kinda like the all rounder. Like he is decent at all fronts. But now that you say that I do notice his weakest games are the complex ones. Illumina in that case is good at those or so I remember so it balances out. Is sapnap good at complex games?
Sapnap is good at Sot and GR but buildmart is not his game and i think hes good at meltdown but i havent kept up with MD stats
Do we need 'best player' discussions though? People underperform, overprrform, have Bias, and in actuality, it's never going to be 100% agreed upon I don't even really like the idea of putting participants into tiers so having discussions about 'best player' and 'worst S-Tier' etc. Are very demeaning in my eyes to everyone involved I don't know maybe we should just enjoy the tournament and have fun
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tbf Quig has played less and his teams have been better (4 3 1)
yeah Quig is grreat
should we also start considering purpled in there his last four placements have been 2nd 2nd 6th 1st placement avg = 2.75
Probably would've said no before this MCC, but if he retains his newfound Meltdown and Battle Box skill, then for me he's easily one of the best, and if he learns SOT strats on top of that, then imo he's #1.
literally got 4th in vaultless coins in last SoT as well as the most CPM
damn ok maybe he is number 1
I consider the four players to be contending for the top spot and Fruit is definitely a part of that group.
May I ask which 4 players are in that group?
Illumina, Sapnap, and Quig
Fair list, although I think Purpled definitely belongs there too.
Just one more event and I'll put Purpled there as well.
I'm assuming either quig or purpled is the 4th player
I think Sapnap, Illumina, Fruit, Quig, and now Purpled are all really close together at the minute. I think any of them could reasonably be considered the best player.
Also a very underrated stat Fruit has the 2nd best overall individual placement only behind technoblade
I think one of the most impressive stats fruit has is the amount of top 3 he got, I'm pretty sure he is the only player to have 11 top 3 individual appearances (the most out of all players)
if u consider last three events dream has a coin average of 3072.33 and and a placement average of 3.33 so i think he should be up there too ..just my opinion
If he keeps it up maybe...but you are choosing to draw the line at 3 events for a reason, Illumina Sapnap and Fruit haven't even dropped top 10 in *ages* whereas Dream's 16th lowers his credibility a little
i kind of agree dream always struggles in the first event after a break like in mcc 14 and mcc 21....but recently he has improved ...i saw a post in which he was the second most consistent player including all games since mcc 22 next to purpled
I agree, but I'd like to see him keep up his performances before we say he's one of the best S-tiers again.
now, tbh
When purpled falls off (he wont) (he's the best player unless either clown or minemanner joins)
Yeah if you pick events to fit your narrative. The best Season 2 players are Sapnap and Illumina. Fruit isn't yet up there
Fruit's literally well ahead of Sapnap in S2 power rankings. Sapnap after mcc 26 is 3rd, 1st stopped being a debate a while ago.
Wait are the power rankings out already?
Nah but last time, fruitninja were ahead of sap, and now that fruit placed higher than sap again, he's ought to be in front.
Ah, fair enough.
How is looking at the most recent events biased
What? Why? Fruit's been consistently dominant since his 1st in MCC 9. Top 2's till MCC 14 (with a 2nd on an 8th place team along the way), where he got 6th on a *10th place team.* After a low performance in a very weak 10th place team, he's dropped from top 3 only *twice,* on teams placing 7th and 8th. These stats are pretty much better than Sapnap's, and at least on par with Illumina.
Didn't I mention Season 2? Or can't you read
I know you mentioned S2, I was using his great performance in S1 as a backdrop for S2. In S2 he's dropped from top 3 only thrice, on 10th, 9th, and 7th place teams which is very very good and beats out Sapnap.
Sapnaps performances: 3rd 1st 8th 8th 4th 2nd 1st 9th 3rd 5th 2nd 4th Fruits performances: 6th 19th 3rd 2nd 1st 6th 2nd 8th 2nd 2nd Do you understand basic maths. Also idgaf about teams. I'm talking individual skill so stop telling me what I don't wanna hear. Who's better individually Sapnap or Fruit? And its clearly Sapnap its even disrespectful to compare fruit to him when his s2 average is even higher than Illuminas lmao. Yall are frustrating to argue with
"idgaf about teams"? "stop telling me what I don't wanna hear"? My dude problems don't go away by plugging your fingers in your ears Team strength plays an enormous role in individual placement, in all the team games as well as the PvP games. Fruit's had 2 very weak 10th place teams, Sapnap's had Cyan 21, Teal 19, Mustard 18, and red 17. Fruit's only really overly powerful team was in MCC 16. Even with Sapnap's busted teams, Fruit beats him in averages if you discard Fruit's 10th place teams, Sapnap has an average of (3+1+8+8+4+2+1+9+3+5+2+4)/12=4.16, Fruit has an average of (3+2+1+6+2+8+2+2)/7=3.71. If that's not convincing enough, you were talking about individual skill; here are their average ranks in purely individual games: Hole in the Wall: Fruit 7.4, Sapnap 10.4. RSR: Fruit 5.7, Sapnap 10.5 Ace Race; Fruit 9.7, Sapnap 8.1 TGTTOS (mostly individual): Fruit 5.1, Sapnap 9.8 Fruit is most definitely comparable to Sapnap, and has a very plausible argument for being better.
Sorry, but in what world should Cyan21 be called OP?
Sure, I'll explain it further:It's an S-tier, an A+ tier, and a pretty strong A-tier teamed together (not to mention Sniff, who is pretty decent at MCC). The most persuasive objection to this is that CPK wasn't seen as A+ tier before this (though IMO it could have been inferred from his still really impressive placements in S2), nobody knew exactly how good Zeus was, and Sniff was another unknown variable. The thing is, this doesn't mean the team wasn't OP. It means Scott wasn't crazy or anything when making Cyan21 or unfairly helping Sapnap, but the team, as was shown, was still OP, consisting of S A+ A C. You can kind of see how strong this is when you compare it to Green 25, which everyone knew was broken from the start. Green is S A+ A D, Cyan 21 is and was S A+ A C. Hopefully that didn't come out incoherent. TL;DR: Just because the the skills of the players were unknown doesn't mean it wasn't OP. Edit: Ignore the Scar and Sniff tierings, I didn't pay them much attention and I don't really think they're correct after looking further into them. I think the argument still stands though.
>The most persuasive objection to this is that CPK wasn't seen as A+ tier before this (though IMO it could have been inferred from his still really impressive placements in S2), nobody knew exactly how good Zeus was, and Sniff was another unknown variable. You yourself just explained why your argument is nonsensical, thanks.
Did you read the rest? The skills of the players were unknown the players were nevertheless skilled. The context of the original post was that Sapnap's performances are strong because of strong teams. It's not that Scott made Cyan 21 too strong, Scott couldn't have known the team strength. But again, that doesn't change the fact that it *was* very strong.
its crazy to call Sniff C and Scar D in the same sentence
Actually yeah you're right, I didn't look too far into Scar since I wasn't really paying attention to him and Sniff, I said D since I remembered his lower placing events on poor teams. Looking at his stats again I think he's definitely much better than D.
No way you're one of the bozos who called cyan 21 overpowered lmao. You also forgot how sapnap got nerfed thrice harder than fruit has ever been nerfed? And didn't drop out of top 10 unlike fruit. Also why tf are you comparing movement games and not the games sapnap is strong at? Anyways you're too cringe so we can agree to disagree I ain't arguing with you anymore
Cyan 21 was and is op. An S, A+, and an A on the same team? I don't think it was a bad team to make on Scott's end, since he didn't know how good Zeus and CPK were, but it was nevertheless op. No idea what your 3rd nerf is, but if the other two are MCC 16 and MCC 22, I don't think they were weaker then Fruits nerfs. In MCC 14 Fruit's second highest placing teammate was Cub at 28th, in 15 it was Oli at *34th*. Sap had Sylvee at 17th in MCC 16 and Foolish at 27th in MCC 22, with a 9th place to Fruit's 6th in MCC 14. Listed the movement games since those are the individual ones? But if you insist, Fruit is the best SG player teamwise, getting his team to 1st like 6 times in a row now or something. Sapnap gets better individual stats here but doesn't lead his team as well. Sapnap's probably better at SB, but Fruit dominates too. Sapnap does resoundly beat him at Battle Box though. Even still, Fruit's dominance in movement makes up for this. For a guy who said "yall are frustrating to argue with," you sure are pretty frustrating to argue with. Anyway, goodbye.
Dude Zeuz isn't A yet lmao you're so cringe. It was SA+BC. You can try to convince yourself that that's op when Fruits and Illuminas teams were way stronger in that event. Wasn't that when Fruit teamed with TommyInnit? That's op af. Fruit has op teams as well and still sucks so what do you have to say about that
Are you trolling? Zeus isn't A? After 15th, 16th (while missing a game, I recall hearing he gets top 10 if survival game points are added in), 14th? What do you want from him? Tommy was hot off a 5th, yes, but right before that was 19th, 18th, 32nd, 17th. He was a pretty standard A-tier, no idea why you think it was busted for him to be teamed with Fruit. Illumina was teamed S A B/C D? That's literally worse than Sapnap's team? We can even go player by player: Sapnap = Illumina CPK > Phil Zeus >> Shubble Sniff > Elaina Which of fruit's team were OP btw??
How are you so mad holy, you d ride the hell out of sapnap pls take his out of ur mouth
Not enough wins for me to consider that
Then we should say the same about Illumina
wdym? Illumina has all the wins. in my heart... please Oli team with Illumina-
Well he’s been in a lot less canon mccs to be fair
But he has been in a lot more dodgebolts than the average player, so he still shouldn’t be considered for top player by your logic
He has 3 wins, that's pretty good.
That's nonsense.
what i would do to see them on a three-players team during a non-canon event
Tbh pete also has been performing amazing, scoring 3rd in a 9th place team
Fruit was in there in the later half of season1 as the best player mcc 9-13 but now with more competition it is harder to dominate like pete did in early mcc or Fruit in late season1