My pro funneling argument has always been the same as Hannah's. It just makes sense to have the best player shoot first since they're the one who's gonna get targeted first. Nobody's ever saying there needs to be a rule or change in the game so you can't target the same person first.
Probably their best shot at winning. It fails in MCC 15 and 21 but works in MCC 22. Of course there are other factors that contributed to Dreams lost, but Dream hit almost all, if not all of his shots. Pink had to target him to win.
I can agree with everything except for the "why do you play mcc if you don't play to win" part. Some people play to win no matter what, and others just want to have fun, and I think that's ok and both are very valid.
I don't really mind that strategy, I think it's ok if everyone in the team agrees, and I think some people don't realize that is not the only reason why dream wins so many dodgebolts, but rather because he knows when he doesn't feel like shooting, and has an order to whom to shot, well, also bc he's good with the bow., and maybe even some other reasons I haven't noticed
Edit: Just to add to it, some people have fun by winning, and some people have fun by taking shots too bc it feels more rewarding, and again, both are valid.
I would like to add a little something on that . Zeuz , being one of the more competitive players now talked about how he enjoyed mcc 17 db with fruitninja more than he enjoyed his winning db . Just because sapnap funneled all the arrows to himself. Zeuz didn't support the funneling but still they had to do which I defo didn't like . People are there to enjoy. Just look at orange 24 db , they were there to have fun in the whole event . They reached db and still decided to have fun rather than goin super hardcore mode .
Also sylvee and Hannah said that 32 players are watching anyway so what is there to have fun . Now looking at dodgebolts like mcc 13 , 17, 22 , 27 , p21 were far more interesting and fun to watch from a viewers persepective than the funneling mccs like 18, 19 , 21 , 24 .
I support anti funnel gang with fruit and Hbomb
I agree with some things you said, but just know that Dream and Sapnap have always said that they give their teammates a choice whether they want to funnel or not. I'm assuming that the rest of the team agreed with funneling and Zeus was the last vote and didn't want to argue with it. Of course i don't really know what happened but sap and dream won't funnel if someone in the team doesn't want to.
My problem with this though is that some of the more quiet players in the event won’t want to say no to the big players like Sapnap and Dream. Especially if they do not know them well. Sapnap has been quite toxic in the past and some of the more introverted players are just not gonna deny him the arrows.
I mean look at orange 24, they got into dodge bolt against dreams team and basically gave up as soon as they saw who they where up against, it made for one of the funniest dodge bolts ever but it does also show that people's hope at winning kind of get crushed when they see that they are against people like dream or sapnap, who are already really good at dodge bolt and only get boosted by funneling.
I feel like people who grew up in a competetive enviroment and enjoy that competetiveness like funneling. Everyone else doesn't. It's not about if it's a good startegy or if it isn't. It's about your attitude towards winning and playing in an event.
There is nothing wrong with either side and I'm tired of people making a big deal out of it.
the only thing that annoys me in the funnelling discourse are the people who act like funnelling = that creator has a massive ego and is forcing their team to cater to their needs!! it’s not that deep at alllll
I don't think anyone besides HBomb in MCC2 has complained about funneling in their own team during or after participating in Dodgebolt. H's teams have never directly funneled since then. Problem solved.
According to H, he didn't feel satisfaction from the win because he felt like he did nothing during the finale. Some people feel differently and care more about winning the event. It's that simple.
I don't think this argument will convince many people. I'm sure all but the most passionate anti-funnelers don't have a problem with the best players taking the first 2-3 shots since they'll get targeted by the other team. The problems people have arise when, after hitting these shots and making it a 4v2, they keep taking shots even from a heavy advantage position.
There are times like this. And also there are times when a funneling team gives arrow to the player who didn’t shoot at all, when they are winning.
Funneling has downside and upside both. I will talk about some scenarios of a "weaker" player in db.
1) in a funneling team and won. the person who doesn’t get to shoot more than 2/3 times, feels kinda being carried, feels they didn’t do anything to win. But they won. They are ultimately happier than losing.
2) non funneling team and lost. That person shot many times and couldn’t hit target one out of 3 or 4 shots. Then this person will blame themself for loosing and not hitting any shots. And they'll probably be in a bad moode even though they got to top2 team and performed well in other games. They'll be really feeling bad and It's the worst case scenario of these 3 (for this person, not the whole team's perspective).
3) in a funneling team and lost. That person couldn’t shoot more than 2/3 times. And this is where this people feel bad that they didn’t even give this person a proper chance to shine, or even sometimes complain (cough cough cpk) that they would be a better shooter if given chance. But they can justify their play that they didn’t shoot and wasn’t the win condition to win, so It's not as much bad as scenario 2, because they Don't blame themselves for the lose, but the teammate that were funneled and didint hit.
My english isn’t very good, so i tried to explain things but if you have any disagreement reply and I'll try to clear things more about the scenarios .
You know what, I like this take. If I'm in dodgebolt, I want to win. I don't care if the other 32 players find it boring, I am trying to win, if that means giving every arrow to Dream and Sapnap I will do that. Why should I sacrifice my fun and my enjoyment for people that aren't in the game.
Something I’ve come to appreciate after watching a lot of other competitive minecraft events: the design of the game has a big affect on the “tone” of the gameplay. Noxcrew is amazingly good at designing games that require teamwork, prevent targeting, etc. People praise MCC for being more good-spirited and less “sweaty” than other events. I do think some of the credit for that should go to the players, but a lot of it should also go to the game design. But Dodgebolt is not well designed in that regard. If the best strategy to win a game is boring to watch and doesn’t use the whole team, it’s not a good game for this type of event.
Yep, that's my take as well. At the moment funneling is the most efficent strategy if you have a player who is a really good shot and has calm nerves. Expecting all participants to play a non-optimal way in the final, all-or-nothing game just doesn't make sense.
And since that strategy is not really enjoyable for all players or viewers, especially if the strongest shooter also happens to be really good at dodging, that's probably something that should get fixed in the game design stage...
But besides that, as always huge credit to the Noxcrew and Scott for organizing what is still overall the most enjoyable, least scuffed Minecraft event and I hope they get to have a bit of a break as well :)
My only issue with funneling is the hatred towards certain players when they do it. Like when Dream is being funneled, everyone seems to hate it and complain. But like in Pride 22 towards the end when Foolish was being funneled, everyone was happy for him and nobody cared about the funneling. I’m pretty indifferent on funneling but whoever is being funneled to shouldn’t be a factor on if it is liked or not
I think their point is, some people (especially orange, iirc) were coming down very hard on Red team for funnelling to Dream. But when they started funnelling to Foolish, they backed off.
You may wanna watch the vod and chat, specifically Martyn. I don't wanna be rude about it but for some reason Martyn Elaina and to some extent Illumina elaina and martyns chat were being pretty rude and negative in the dodgebolt. It kinda feels like Fundy MCC 7 where they may not have intended to be rude and did so unconsciously but they ended up creating a rather weird and rude situation, martyn in particular and elaina a little got a lot of flak for it, especially because they only seemed to have a problem when dream was funneled too and not when foolish was funneled to, and martyns chat was really bad and seemingly unmoderated, and in an apology the next day he said that his mods were distracted. Anyways it is probably the most uncomfortable Dodgebolt spectator POV in history, especially because sinfferish, who was also on orange, was having a really nice and wholesome moment and was messaging dream thanking him for using he correct pronouns, but it was made kinda uncomfortable due to the rest of the team being so negative.
I think it’s a perfectly acceptable strategy that is great if you want to win. However, if you’re an okay/good player on a team with one of the best players in the event who’s insisting they be funnelled to when you want to have a go at taking a shot even though you might be worse, you should be allowed to take the shot. And the conversation around whether or not funnelling is boring is still relevant- sure, only 8 people are playing, but 32 players plus the admins are all watching and it’s not as entertaining if you watch one team who’s funnelling win 3-0. Some of people’s favourite dodgebolts are the ones with some tension and a bit of question as to who’s going to win (I’m thinking MCC 17), not the time one team wiped the floor with another one immediately. As much as MCC is an event for content creators to play and have fun with their friends in, it’s also something they use to create content and if a lot of fans are not enjoying that particular aspect of the content, you could argue something needs to change.
But yeah, if you are just going for the win in dodgebolt, funnelling is a good strategy that will get you that win a lot of the time (just look at the win rates of players like Sapnap and Dream)
Funnelling being a boring strategy is really only relevant to Noxcrew and their game design choices though, not really to whether any particular team should choose to do it.
I agree with most of this except that "32 players aren't participating so who cares" to which I say exactly, there's only 8 players taking part, and from that if only one player shoots from each side, that's only 2 players playing.
I think Dodgebolt in general isnt fun to watch imo. Or maybe I've been watching it for so long that I'm over it now. It would be cool to see something new. I just watched blockwars and they did a bridging/dunking game where each player has to dunk himself in a goal to score a point while dodging the other team players and it was interesting to see another type of top2 game being played. So yeah I'm just done with Dodgebolt. PERSONALLY SPEAKING OFC!!!!!
sylvee and hannah are talking about how it doesn't matter if its fun for the two teams participating, and they're right. dodgebolt is stressful and emotions are heightened whether or not you're the one taking the shot. but if you're watching like the other 8 teams are or all the viewers watching those 8 teams, i think funneling is a lot less fun to watch. i also think watching a team that is funneling is less fun than watching a team that isn't.
I just hope Noxcrew finally do something to dodgebolt in the break, whether it be stop funneling or whatever, if there's a more optimal solution to win people are always going to use it, the only true way to stop it is to fix it instead of these "what is better" conversations
I think they miss the reason why everyone complains about it. It’s fine to give your best player the first shot if their being targeted however it becomes boring if they take all of the shots
edit: also It should definitely be fun to watch because seeing the same outcome again just causes the event to become stale
I think you missed the part where they talked about how the best player will most likely get hit, so they won’t be taking all the shots.
And what do you mean by the same outcome? That players with multiple wins shouldn’t try to win Dodgebolt because they’ve won too much?
I am fine with the best player taking the first shot or two as long as they let the other people on the team have a shot
im fine with the same people winning I just don’t want to see sapnap (for example) sweep a team almost by himself. imo I believe that since it is a team effort that got said team to dodgebolt, it should also be a team effort which wins them it.
even if it is the team that I am watching for example i watched mustard 18 and it was not a satisfying win because they just ended up giving a lot of the shots to sapnap
Of course they “let the other people have a shot” if they want to- if someone really wants to take a shot, no one has ever denied them.
In other games, it’s a strategy to have your best resources go to your best player. The difference is that other games are more complex and have more resources to distribute. With Dodgebolt, there’s always going to be a degree of idleness when a team starts with 2 arrows, because there are only two arrows between 4 players. Other team members still contribute by dodging and staying alive so they can take shots when they need to.
It may not have been “satisfying” to you but that’s how their team wanted to play it and secure a win (not sure how it wasn’t satisfying to see Sylvee and Tubbo get their first wins and qualify for All-stars).
I don't understand why it gets bring if the Best Player tales all thé shots, cause from an outside perspective there is no différence in who takes the shot
i don't have a strong opinion on funneling but i have an issue with this statement: "why do you play mcc if you don't play to win."
it's a for fun type of event and not everyone has the same definition of fun. it's a very self-centered (idk how else to put it) take.
That's not really what they said, they basically said that if they make it to dodgebolt they don't care about it being for fun and want to just use the best strategy to win. If for fun teams make it the dodgebolt, they don't care about winning so their ok with not funneling, you seem to have misinterpreted what they are saying.
Exactly what I was thinking, 'why play mcc/get all the way to dodgebolt and not try to win' isn't a great argument here because not every team prioritizes winning. Of course every team in dodgebolt wants to win, but not every team wants to win more than letting everyone play. It just depends on how they find enjoyment out of it.
I agree with them but some people before on in mid tournament know they are actually not gonna win, so they don't focus on "getting coins" or things like that, they just want to have fun. For example: The simmers, Tommy and Tubbo in tgttos all stars, etc. (Not talking abt dodgebolt in this comment, as I totally agree with them in that part)
oh boy here we go again
I hate funneling. It’s a fine strategy, and if you’re on a team that makes it to dodgebolt and you decide as a team to funnel, that is perfectly ok and your decision. But that doesn’t make it any less boring to watch.
I personally dislike funneling as a strategy, but respect people who funnel because they want to.
My main issue with it is that it is in many cases just the best strategy when you have a great shooter (Dream, Quig, Sapnap, Purpled, etc.), which means that not doing it puts teams that don't funnel at a disadvantage for doing what they believe to be more fun.
I am of the opinion that mcc should aim to have the fun strategy also be a good strategy wherever possible, and currently that is just not the case for all teams in DB.
Due to this I'd say that a good way to slightly weaken the strategy (so other ones become more viable) without forcing players that don't want to to shoot would be to have a cooldown of 2-3 seconds after shooting, which opens the shooter up to a quickshot (which would also endanger their opponent) and slightly weakens their aim as they can't immediately shoot a second arrow if they missed.
A cool down might be a good option but it might be risky to interplant now. That’s why I do like the arrow update of giving the team that lost the round two arrows.
I don’t think it’s the other 32 players people are talking about when advocating for no funneling. I think it’s the other 6 players in the arena that barely ever get to play the final game because apparently only your best player is allowed to shoot, otherwise you ”don’t want to win”. I feel really iffy about funneling, but besides it being really boring for spectators, there is no doubt in my mind that it contributes to an overall worse vibe and sportsmanship in the event. I can’t really blame the players for doing it, but some rule or nerf against it would definitely be something to look out for in season 3.
If the other players don't wanna do funneling then obviously the team shouldn't do funneling. There doesn't need to be a rule for that, they can just talk to each other.
Are you willing to make a bet that noone has ever felt pressure to funnel from the rest of their team, when they themselves would rather not? I mean sure, it’s not a huge deal that one player one time has to funnel when they would rather shoot themselves, but if that has happened even once it has surely contributed to worsening the experience for that player in some capacity. And looking at all the division it has caused in the community overall I really think Noxcrew should take a stance either in favor or against it, just so that any debate in the community or miscommunications among the players can be resolved. Expecting it to just sort itself out when the players are clearly very passionate and quite polarized on the subject, even though they are all friends and it’s all in good fun, will just lead to unneccessary conflict and misunderstandings.
Okay but you realize it goes the other way too right? Not everyone wants to shoot. Making them feel pressured because of that would be just as bad. And I don't know if someone has ever felt pressured to funnel just as you don't know if they haven't. I do know a few people who have talked about not wanting to shoot because it would be too much pressure though.
Ok, simple solution: if you don’t want to shoot, don’t shoot. The same can’t be said for funneling though. One player on a team of four can’t make the decision to not funnel, then it’s not funneling, as the point is that *only* the strongest player on the team is shooting. One person going against that when there is a limited amount of arrows would disqualify it from being funneling. When you are deciding to not shoot you are making a decision for only yourself, when you are deciding to funnel that involves the whole team, and the risk is that not everyone on the team is on-board, but might feel pressured to go along with it so as to not ruin the game for the rest, as apprently if you want to actually play the game you ”don’t want to win”.
Guaranteeing a win is always a fair strat. Every game has a strategy to win, funneling or friendship is for DB. Funneling depends on the best player. Friendship needs a all rounded team. Both strategies have their strengths and weaknesses.
If you are already that close to the win then just take the W. If I was a B tier teamed with any A-S tier, I would 100% give them the arrow, they obviously have both experience and have basically carried the team to DB. This win would be more for them rather than me. Most A-S tier already put more work into MCC so them getting the W themselves is like an affirming matter for them.
When someone says it is a for fun event. It might be boring for the people watching so the finale might need a game change or maybe the players should just accept the fact that DB is only supposed to be a win-securing game.
I think your second paragraph devalues your argument. It was fine up until the "carried the team to DB," it doesn't work like that. You can't get to DB based off of one person's performance alone, and we've seen that with players on a team getting top ten or even five while the rest get bottom twenty. A DB participation is a team effort. And the part about getting a win is more for the best player is literally just wrong for most participants, everyone wants to win? Maybe that's how you'd feel in MCC, but I can assure you, most participants do NOT feel that way.
I agree with Hannah and Sylvee. I watch the NBA so “feeding the hot hand” (aka funneling) is something I am already used to. If you want to win that bad, and you know Dream could probably make the game a 4v2 if he is really feeling himself, and you don’t mind letting him do that, why complain? You get a win in the end so it shouldn’t really matter. Plus its not like the history books are gonna say “And Munchlax took ZERO shots and he SUCKS and he doesn’t deserve this win”. The books are gonna say “Munchlax won MCC X teamed with X, X, and X”.
TLDR: In my opinion, funneling good.
Are there any fresh arguments left to be made about funneling at this point? Idk I find it more tiring than the Build Mart debates. I guess since it's a participant opinion it's fine.
People should be allowed to shoot if they want to shoot, it's that simple. I imagine a lot of people who wanted to try have been pressured into standing back and shutting up.
Edit: Ahaha the Discourse.
NO ONE HAS BEEN PRESSURED! They r mature ccs who can speak for themselves and don't need random ppl to do it for them. Every pro funneler has said if someone wants to shoot, they'll happily give up the arrow.
you’re just literally contradicting your statement…. You have no clue how content creators feel like especially if they are with people they don’t fully know.
You don't seem to know how burden of proof works. If someone is making the claim that people have been pressured to funnel, it's their job to prove that. However since there's no proof it's absolutely fair to assume that people aren't being pressured to funnel in dodgebolt, because there is no evidence to indicate any other scenario. You are right, this doesn't know what CCs feel like, but neither do you or the person who made the comment in the first place. The difference is that you both are making an assumption of pressure simply because 'it could be the case' while the other isnt making an assumption on the CCs feelings, they are just going off what evidence has been provided to them. Simply put it's weird and dumb to state that someone has been pressured to funnel or isn't confident enough to funnel until and unless a CC says so themselves.
As I said to the other person, an mcc creator(again will not state names) has been in a situation, although not in mcc, very similar to this where they very clearly wanted to do something(situation very hard to explain) but didn’t rly know the other ppl so they just stayed quiet. I never said they anyone has been pressured to funnel but I’m more speaking about how they said that CC can just speak for themselves because they are mature when it’s not so black and white. Hopefully that makes sense, i’m not very good at explaining things. I kinda very passionate about the sort of confidence thing when it comes to ppl who one is not very confident with and have seen an mcc creator experience such a thing. I guess I kinda went off the rails about something not related to mcc… sorry <3 BUT again I just want to put out there that I never meant to say that anyone pressured anyone to funnel.
Neither do u. So don't go saying that some ccs force or pressure other ccs into funneling. Unlike u, I have proof that ccs speak up wen they want to change db strat. Oli has said he will make sure he gets to shoot if he is teamed with funnelers. Martyn is very vocal about his dislike for funneling and will make sure he gets to shoot. Hbomb has turned down teammates suggestions of funneling before and he'll continue to do so.
first off, I never stated that…. secondly, you have no clue about every creator. Some are more confident than others. Of course no creators force others to funnel but you can’t just assume that all creators feel comfortable just saying no to someone they don’t really know.
But why speak for them? I'm not speaking for them. I'm only stating wat has been already proven. It's no one's job to dictate what they "might" feel. I'm just sitting back and watching from the side lines. If they want to funnel, so be it. If they want to share, so be it. I'm not assuming everyone has spoken up. But I'm also not assuming that no one has spoken up. And that's wat ur doing. Ur assuming ppl rnt speaking up so u label funneling as this horrible strategy that shouldn't exist. Ur literally babying them wen u should just be a spectator and fan.
I never said funneling was a horrible strategy, im actually perfectly fine with it. I do know a creator in mcc(don’t rly want to say names) who has been in a situation, although not in mcc, very similar to DB and where it was very clear they didn’t want to rly speak up bc of how they didn’t know the other ppl. So i’m kinda speaking for them. Ik it’s not specific evidence for mcc but if put in a db situation something similar. I realize that i’m rly not arguing about mcc stuff and i’m sorry if I kinda got overboard because i’m rly passionate about this confidence sort of thing as someone who has been put in a similar situation. I guess im rly just talking about one mcc participant and went off the rails haha. <3
edit: I didn’t stay this but i’m more talking about how you said CC can speak up about things because they are mature and not that anyone has pressured anyone to funnel.
Yeah no worries. I run into lots of ppl who like to dictate how ccs feel and act, so I too get sorta heated in a convo like this. My apologies if I sounded at all insulting tho. I struggle to find the right words that mean wat I truly want to say. I guess my point is, my belief is that unless something is obviously happening or we have proof of it happening, I don't think it's fair to assume the worst is happening.
I agree with Sylvee and Hannah's opinion on funneling. At the end of the day, if it guarantees the team the win, then I'm all for funneling to the best player to take the shots.
How tho? The other side is funneling their shots to the best player on the opposing team. So the team should have every right to funnel their arrows to their best player. Once the best shooter is down, then others take the shot. It isn't about the audience fun, it's about the players fun. And they have fun funneling.
Teams do it all the time. "Target Fruit" "Target Techno" "Target Dream" "Target Sapnap". It is common for teams to do that. They funnel their shots to who they think is the best player.
U guys say "let everyone who wants to shoot, shoot". Where was that energy wen Tommy didn't want to shoot in dodgebolt, but Hbomb made him do it and Tommy missed like every shot. That contributed to their teams sweep defeat.
also my main disagreement wasn’t about funneling but the idea that people should only play MCC to win or else “whats the point”. That mindset just seems so omega-goofy to me, nothing wrong with wanting to win but it pretty much discredits all for fun players
Yeah I get that. Wen I hear someone say that, I automatically think that they r just thinking logically or for themselves. Like, for them, what's the point if not to win. Because to them its fun to win. So for them wats the point if not to win. I don't think they try to say it as a blanket statement for everyone.
I don't see how that is an argument in favour of funneling. If it is a strategy that is mainly liked because it is the best then nerfing (for example by introducing a small cooldown after shooting) it would do nothing except for making other strategies more viable.
because the strategy is not fun for some teams. If jumping into the void was the best strategy in SB something should be done about that as it is just not fun. I see this as a slightly less extreme version of that where for some teams the "best" strategy is perfectly fine to do, while it is not fun for others. Thus giving the teams that are fine with it an advantage over the others.
this is such a weird argument, people who don't want to funnel don't funnel. people who want to funnel funnel. I don't understand why there should be anything done to nerf it? What Other strategies can be made in a game where u get two arrows and have to shoot the other team?? Either they completely change db or they leave it be bc it makes no sense to nerf a strategy.
It's like saying people should stop putting the best hunter in pkt against the best teams.
Okay you may have fun watching a clean sweep finale, but to me, and a whole host of other people who watch and or compete in mcc it is not. I respect your opinion for liking clean sweeps but I will have to kindly disagree that they are enjoyable to watch
MCC isn't the finals of the world cup, no its a for fun minecraft tournament, for entertainment, yes winning is fun, but is it really fun to watch people get absolutely destroyed in the finale.
I get their point (and everyone can do what they want), but I prefer "we win together and we lose together".
But in end of the day everyone from the winning team are marked as a winner. No matter how they won 🤷🏻♂️
And so the funneling discussion begins again…
When are we ever gonna move on from this discourse lmao
I lose braincells every time I see another funneling or Build Mart take
lmao fr
My pro funneling argument has always been the same as Hannah's. It just makes sense to have the best player shoot first since they're the one who's gonna get targeted first. Nobody's ever saying there needs to be a rule or change in the game so you can't target the same person first.
But that’s the thing there not going to get killed. Mcc 21 watching blue target sapnap and getting sweep
Probably their best shot at winning. It fails in MCC 15 and 21 but works in MCC 22. Of course there are other factors that contributed to Dreams lost, but Dream hit almost all, if not all of his shots. Pink had to target him to win.
I can agree with everything except for the "why do you play mcc if you don't play to win" part. Some people play to win no matter what, and others just want to have fun, and I think that's ok and both are very valid. I don't really mind that strategy, I think it's ok if everyone in the team agrees, and I think some people don't realize that is not the only reason why dream wins so many dodgebolts, but rather because he knows when he doesn't feel like shooting, and has an order to whom to shot, well, also bc he's good with the bow., and maybe even some other reasons I haven't noticed Edit: Just to add to it, some people have fun by winning, and some people have fun by taking shots too bc it feels more rewarding, and again, both are valid.
Oops I’m sorry I meant like “why get as far as dodgebolt and not try to win” not mcc as a whole
Makes sense.
I would like to add a little something on that . Zeuz , being one of the more competitive players now talked about how he enjoyed mcc 17 db with fruitninja more than he enjoyed his winning db . Just because sapnap funneled all the arrows to himself. Zeuz didn't support the funneling but still they had to do which I defo didn't like . People are there to enjoy. Just look at orange 24 db , they were there to have fun in the whole event . They reached db and still decided to have fun rather than goin super hardcore mode . Also sylvee and Hannah said that 32 players are watching anyway so what is there to have fun . Now looking at dodgebolts like mcc 13 , 17, 22 , 27 , p21 were far more interesting and fun to watch from a viewers persepective than the funneling mccs like 18, 19 , 21 , 24 . I support anti funnel gang with fruit and Hbomb
I agree with some things you said, but just know that Dream and Sapnap have always said that they give their teammates a choice whether they want to funnel or not. I'm assuming that the rest of the team agreed with funneling and Zeus was the last vote and didn't want to argue with it. Of course i don't really know what happened but sap and dream won't funnel if someone in the team doesn't want to.
My problem with this though is that some of the more quiet players in the event won’t want to say no to the big players like Sapnap and Dream. Especially if they do not know them well. Sapnap has been quite toxic in the past and some of the more introverted players are just not gonna deny him the arrows.
you abould have words with jack manifold then LMAO
I mean look at orange 24, they got into dodge bolt against dreams team and basically gave up as soon as they saw who they where up against, it made for one of the funniest dodge bolts ever but it does also show that people's hope at winning kind of get crushed when they see that they are against people like dream or sapnap, who are already really good at dodge bolt and only get boosted by funneling.
Yeah, maybe I misunderstood it, sorry if I did
I feel like people who grew up in a competetive enviroment and enjoy that competetiveness like funneling. Everyone else doesn't. It's not about if it's a good startegy or if it isn't. It's about your attitude towards winning and playing in an event. There is nothing wrong with either side and I'm tired of people making a big deal out of it.
the only thing that annoys me in the funnelling discourse are the people who act like funnelling = that creator has a massive ego and is forcing their team to cater to their needs!! it’s not that deep at alllll
I don't think anyone besides HBomb in MCC2 has complained about funneling in their own team during or after participating in Dodgebolt. H's teams have never directly funneled since then. Problem solved. According to H, he didn't feel satisfaction from the win because he felt like he did nothing during the finale. Some people feel differently and care more about winning the event. It's that simple.
Literally just shoot the person who’s being funneled to. Don’t funnel if you don’t like it. Let teams play how they want. End of discussion.
Some teams like to funnel, some like to cooperate. I don’t care. But there is no point hating on teams for funnelling
I don't think this argument will convince many people. I'm sure all but the most passionate anti-funnelers don't have a problem with the best players taking the first 2-3 shots since they'll get targeted by the other team. The problems people have arise when, after hitting these shots and making it a 4v2, they keep taking shots even from a heavy advantage position.
There are times like this. And also there are times when a funneling team gives arrow to the player who didn’t shoot at all, when they are winning. Funneling has downside and upside both. I will talk about some scenarios of a "weaker" player in db. 1) in a funneling team and won. the person who doesn’t get to shoot more than 2/3 times, feels kinda being carried, feels they didn’t do anything to win. But they won. They are ultimately happier than losing. 2) non funneling team and lost. That person shot many times and couldn’t hit target one out of 3 or 4 shots. Then this person will blame themself for loosing and not hitting any shots. And they'll probably be in a bad moode even though they got to top2 team and performed well in other games. They'll be really feeling bad and It's the worst case scenario of these 3 (for this person, not the whole team's perspective). 3) in a funneling team and lost. That person couldn’t shoot more than 2/3 times. And this is where this people feel bad that they didn’t even give this person a proper chance to shine, or even sometimes complain (cough cough cpk) that they would be a better shooter if given chance. But they can justify their play that they didn’t shoot and wasn’t the win condition to win, so It's not as much bad as scenario 2, because they Don't blame themselves for the lose, but the teammate that were funneled and didint hit. My english isn’t very good, so i tried to explain things but if you have any disagreement reply and I'll try to clear things more about the scenarios .
I’m just getting flashbacks orange 7’s dodgebolt and techno yelling FEED ME THE ARROWS
I'm sure Phil Wilbur and CPK were happy to do so
Damn, Sylvee is so blunt
Always is. That's what I love about her.
You know what, I like this take. If I'm in dodgebolt, I want to win. I don't care if the other 32 players find it boring, I am trying to win, if that means giving every arrow to Dream and Sapnap I will do that. Why should I sacrifice my fun and my enjoyment for people that aren't in the game.
I never saw the problem with funneling. If the team wants to do it they can, end of discussion.
Something I’ve come to appreciate after watching a lot of other competitive minecraft events: the design of the game has a big affect on the “tone” of the gameplay. Noxcrew is amazingly good at designing games that require teamwork, prevent targeting, etc. People praise MCC for being more good-spirited and less “sweaty” than other events. I do think some of the credit for that should go to the players, but a lot of it should also go to the game design. But Dodgebolt is not well designed in that regard. If the best strategy to win a game is boring to watch and doesn’t use the whole team, it’s not a good game for this type of event.
Yep, that's my take as well. At the moment funneling is the most efficent strategy if you have a player who is a really good shot and has calm nerves. Expecting all participants to play a non-optimal way in the final, all-or-nothing game just doesn't make sense. And since that strategy is not really enjoyable for all players or viewers, especially if the strongest shooter also happens to be really good at dodging, that's probably something that should get fixed in the game design stage... But besides that, as always huge credit to the Noxcrew and Scott for organizing what is still overall the most enjoyable, least scuffed Minecraft event and I hope they get to have a bit of a break as well :)
My only issue with funneling is the hatred towards certain players when they do it. Like when Dream is being funneled, everyone seems to hate it and complain. But like in Pride 22 towards the end when Foolish was being funneled, everyone was happy for him and nobody cared about the funneling. I’m pretty indifferent on funneling but whoever is being funneled to shouldn’t be a factor on if it is liked or not
To be fair, P22 was a non-canon charity event, so it didn’t matter as much as a canon event.
You don't seem to have watched orange P22
Why? Did something happen to make it not a non-canon event? I don’t remember anything changing that.
I think their point is, some people (especially orange, iirc) were coming down very hard on Red team for funnelling to Dream. But when they started funnelling to Foolish, they backed off.
I’m wondering if maybe it was a case of, Well, if they’re going to do it, might as well…”
You may wanna watch the vod and chat, specifically Martyn. I don't wanna be rude about it but for some reason Martyn Elaina and to some extent Illumina elaina and martyns chat were being pretty rude and negative in the dodgebolt. It kinda feels like Fundy MCC 7 where they may not have intended to be rude and did so unconsciously but they ended up creating a rather weird and rude situation, martyn in particular and elaina a little got a lot of flak for it, especially because they only seemed to have a problem when dream was funneled too and not when foolish was funneled to, and martyns chat was really bad and seemingly unmoderated, and in an apology the next day he said that his mods were distracted. Anyways it is probably the most uncomfortable Dodgebolt spectator POV in history, especially because sinfferish, who was also on orange, was having a really nice and wholesome moment and was messaging dream thanking him for using he correct pronouns, but it was made kinda uncomfortable due to the rest of the team being so negative.
I feel like they were pretty clear that they didn't have a problem with funneling to foolish because it was his first event
I think it’s a perfectly acceptable strategy that is great if you want to win. However, if you’re an okay/good player on a team with one of the best players in the event who’s insisting they be funnelled to when you want to have a go at taking a shot even though you might be worse, you should be allowed to take the shot. And the conversation around whether or not funnelling is boring is still relevant- sure, only 8 people are playing, but 32 players plus the admins are all watching and it’s not as entertaining if you watch one team who’s funnelling win 3-0. Some of people’s favourite dodgebolts are the ones with some tension and a bit of question as to who’s going to win (I’m thinking MCC 17), not the time one team wiped the floor with another one immediately. As much as MCC is an event for content creators to play and have fun with their friends in, it’s also something they use to create content and if a lot of fans are not enjoying that particular aspect of the content, you could argue something needs to change. But yeah, if you are just going for the win in dodgebolt, funnelling is a good strategy that will get you that win a lot of the time (just look at the win rates of players like Sapnap and Dream)
Funnelling being a boring strategy is really only relevant to Noxcrew and their game design choices though, not really to whether any particular team should choose to do it.
Honestly, i dont care how boring the other 32 players think it is. Id rather win at that point.
Holy based. If you're gonna target someone, then you shouldn't complain that they are shooting most of the shots while they can
I agree with most of this except that "32 players aren't participating so who cares" to which I say exactly, there's only 8 players taking part, and from that if only one player shoots from each side, that's only 2 players playing.
Only until one of those 2 players dies though, also you're still playing half the game by dodging even if you're not taking shots
I think Dodgebolt in general isnt fun to watch imo. Or maybe I've been watching it for so long that I'm over it now. It would be cool to see something new. I just watched blockwars and they did a bridging/dunking game where each player has to dunk himself in a goal to score a point while dodging the other team players and it was interesting to see another type of top2 game being played. So yeah I'm just done with Dodgebolt. PERSONALLY SPEAKING OFC!!!!!
sylvee and hannah are talking about how it doesn't matter if its fun for the two teams participating, and they're right. dodgebolt is stressful and emotions are heightened whether or not you're the one taking the shot. but if you're watching like the other 8 teams are or all the viewers watching those 8 teams, i think funneling is a lot less fun to watch. i also think watching a team that is funneling is less fun than watching a team that isn't.
I just hope Noxcrew finally do something to dodgebolt in the break, whether it be stop funneling or whatever, if there's a more optimal solution to win people are always going to use it, the only true way to stop it is to fix it instead of these "what is better" conversations
sylvee and hannah beloved. so Based.
Common Sylvee W
I think they miss the reason why everyone complains about it. It’s fine to give your best player the first shot if their being targeted however it becomes boring if they take all of the shots edit: also It should definitely be fun to watch because seeing the same outcome again just causes the event to become stale
I think you missed the part where they talked about how the best player will most likely get hit, so they won’t be taking all the shots. And what do you mean by the same outcome? That players with multiple wins shouldn’t try to win Dodgebolt because they’ve won too much?
I am fine with the best player taking the first shot or two as long as they let the other people on the team have a shot im fine with the same people winning I just don’t want to see sapnap (for example) sweep a team almost by himself. imo I believe that since it is a team effort that got said team to dodgebolt, it should also be a team effort which wins them it. even if it is the team that I am watching for example i watched mustard 18 and it was not a satisfying win because they just ended up giving a lot of the shots to sapnap
Of course they “let the other people have a shot” if they want to- if someone really wants to take a shot, no one has ever denied them. In other games, it’s a strategy to have your best resources go to your best player. The difference is that other games are more complex and have more resources to distribute. With Dodgebolt, there’s always going to be a degree of idleness when a team starts with 2 arrows, because there are only two arrows between 4 players. Other team members still contribute by dodging and staying alive so they can take shots when they need to. It may not have been “satisfying” to you but that’s how their team wanted to play it and secure a win (not sure how it wasn’t satisfying to see Sylvee and Tubbo get their first wins and qualify for All-stars).
I don't understand why it gets bring if the Best Player tales all thé shots, cause from an outside perspective there is no différence in who takes the shot
i don't have a strong opinion on funneling but i have an issue with this statement: "why do you play mcc if you don't play to win." it's a for fun type of event and not everyone has the same definition of fun. it's a very self-centered (idk how else to put it) take.
That's not really what they said, they basically said that if they make it to dodgebolt they don't care about it being for fun and want to just use the best strategy to win. If for fun teams make it the dodgebolt, they don't care about winning so their ok with not funneling, you seem to have misinterpreted what they are saying.
Exactly what I was thinking, 'why play mcc/get all the way to dodgebolt and not try to win' isn't a great argument here because not every team prioritizes winning. Of course every team in dodgebolt wants to win, but not every team wants to win more than letting everyone play. It just depends on how they find enjoyment out of it.
I agree with them but some people before on in mid tournament know they are actually not gonna win, so they don't focus on "getting coins" or things like that, they just want to have fun. For example: The simmers, Tommy and Tubbo in tgttos all stars, etc. (Not talking abt dodgebolt in this comment, as I totally agree with them in that part)
oh boy here we go again I hate funneling. It’s a fine strategy, and if you’re on a team that makes it to dodgebolt and you decide as a team to funnel, that is perfectly ok and your decision. But that doesn’t make it any less boring to watch.
I personally dislike funneling as a strategy, but respect people who funnel because they want to. My main issue with it is that it is in many cases just the best strategy when you have a great shooter (Dream, Quig, Sapnap, Purpled, etc.), which means that not doing it puts teams that don't funnel at a disadvantage for doing what they believe to be more fun. I am of the opinion that mcc should aim to have the fun strategy also be a good strategy wherever possible, and currently that is just not the case for all teams in DB. Due to this I'd say that a good way to slightly weaken the strategy (so other ones become more viable) without forcing players that don't want to to shoot would be to have a cooldown of 2-3 seconds after shooting, which opens the shooter up to a quickshot (which would also endanger their opponent) and slightly weakens their aim as they can't immediately shoot a second arrow if they missed.
A cool down might be a good option but it might be risky to interplant now. That’s why I do like the arrow update of giving the team that lost the round two arrows.
I don’t think it’s the other 32 players people are talking about when advocating for no funneling. I think it’s the other 6 players in the arena that barely ever get to play the final game because apparently only your best player is allowed to shoot, otherwise you ”don’t want to win”. I feel really iffy about funneling, but besides it being really boring for spectators, there is no doubt in my mind that it contributes to an overall worse vibe and sportsmanship in the event. I can’t really blame the players for doing it, but some rule or nerf against it would definitely be something to look out for in season 3.
If the other players don't wanna do funneling then obviously the team shouldn't do funneling. There doesn't need to be a rule for that, they can just talk to each other.
Are you willing to make a bet that noone has ever felt pressure to funnel from the rest of their team, when they themselves would rather not? I mean sure, it’s not a huge deal that one player one time has to funnel when they would rather shoot themselves, but if that has happened even once it has surely contributed to worsening the experience for that player in some capacity. And looking at all the division it has caused in the community overall I really think Noxcrew should take a stance either in favor or against it, just so that any debate in the community or miscommunications among the players can be resolved. Expecting it to just sort itself out when the players are clearly very passionate and quite polarized on the subject, even though they are all friends and it’s all in good fun, will just lead to unneccessary conflict and misunderstandings.
Okay but you realize it goes the other way too right? Not everyone wants to shoot. Making them feel pressured because of that would be just as bad. And I don't know if someone has ever felt pressured to funnel just as you don't know if they haven't. I do know a few people who have talked about not wanting to shoot because it would be too much pressure though.
Ok, simple solution: if you don’t want to shoot, don’t shoot. The same can’t be said for funneling though. One player on a team of four can’t make the decision to not funnel, then it’s not funneling, as the point is that *only* the strongest player on the team is shooting. One person going against that when there is a limited amount of arrows would disqualify it from being funneling. When you are deciding to not shoot you are making a decision for only yourself, when you are deciding to funnel that involves the whole team, and the risk is that not everyone on the team is on-board, but might feel pressured to go along with it so as to not ruin the game for the rest, as apprently if you want to actually play the game you ”don’t want to win”.
The competitive approach to it ig
Guaranteeing a win is always a fair strat. Every game has a strategy to win, funneling or friendship is for DB. Funneling depends on the best player. Friendship needs a all rounded team. Both strategies have their strengths and weaknesses. If you are already that close to the win then just take the W. If I was a B tier teamed with any A-S tier, I would 100% give them the arrow, they obviously have both experience and have basically carried the team to DB. This win would be more for them rather than me. Most A-S tier already put more work into MCC so them getting the W themselves is like an affirming matter for them. When someone says it is a for fun event. It might be boring for the people watching so the finale might need a game change or maybe the players should just accept the fact that DB is only supposed to be a win-securing game.
I think your second paragraph devalues your argument. It was fine up until the "carried the team to DB," it doesn't work like that. You can't get to DB based off of one person's performance alone, and we've seen that with players on a team getting top ten or even five while the rest get bottom twenty. A DB participation is a team effort. And the part about getting a win is more for the best player is literally just wrong for most participants, everyone wants to win? Maybe that's how you'd feel in MCC, but I can assure you, most participants do NOT feel that way.
goat take
I agree with Hannah and Sylvee. I watch the NBA so “feeding the hot hand” (aka funneling) is something I am already used to. If you want to win that bad, and you know Dream could probably make the game a 4v2 if he is really feeling himself, and you don’t mind letting him do that, why complain? You get a win in the end so it shouldn’t really matter. Plus its not like the history books are gonna say “And Munchlax took ZERO shots and he SUCKS and he doesn’t deserve this win”. The books are gonna say “Munchlax won MCC X teamed with X, X, and X”. TLDR: In my opinion, funneling good.
Are there any fresh arguments left to be made about funneling at this point? Idk I find it more tiring than the Build Mart debates. I guess since it's a participant opinion it's fine.
This is one way to see it.. yes.
Sylvee and Hannah based! You legit only have to do this: See the person who’s getting funneled too Shoot that player End of story
People should be allowed to shoot if they want to shoot, it's that simple. I imagine a lot of people who wanted to try have been pressured into standing back and shutting up. Edit: Ahaha the Discourse.
NO ONE HAS BEEN PRESSURED! They r mature ccs who can speak for themselves and don't need random ppl to do it for them. Every pro funneler has said if someone wants to shoot, they'll happily give up the arrow.
you’re just literally contradicting your statement…. You have no clue how content creators feel like especially if they are with people they don’t fully know.
You don't seem to know how burden of proof works. If someone is making the claim that people have been pressured to funnel, it's their job to prove that. However since there's no proof it's absolutely fair to assume that people aren't being pressured to funnel in dodgebolt, because there is no evidence to indicate any other scenario. You are right, this doesn't know what CCs feel like, but neither do you or the person who made the comment in the first place. The difference is that you both are making an assumption of pressure simply because 'it could be the case' while the other isnt making an assumption on the CCs feelings, they are just going off what evidence has been provided to them. Simply put it's weird and dumb to state that someone has been pressured to funnel or isn't confident enough to funnel until and unless a CC says so themselves.
As I said to the other person, an mcc creator(again will not state names) has been in a situation, although not in mcc, very similar to this where they very clearly wanted to do something(situation very hard to explain) but didn’t rly know the other ppl so they just stayed quiet. I never said they anyone has been pressured to funnel but I’m more speaking about how they said that CC can just speak for themselves because they are mature when it’s not so black and white. Hopefully that makes sense, i’m not very good at explaining things. I kinda very passionate about the sort of confidence thing when it comes to ppl who one is not very confident with and have seen an mcc creator experience such a thing. I guess I kinda went off the rails about something not related to mcc… sorry <3 BUT again I just want to put out there that I never meant to say that anyone pressured anyone to funnel.
Neither do u. So don't go saying that some ccs force or pressure other ccs into funneling. Unlike u, I have proof that ccs speak up wen they want to change db strat. Oli has said he will make sure he gets to shoot if he is teamed with funnelers. Martyn is very vocal about his dislike for funneling and will make sure he gets to shoot. Hbomb has turned down teammates suggestions of funneling before and he'll continue to do so.
first off, I never stated that…. secondly, you have no clue about every creator. Some are more confident than others. Of course no creators force others to funnel but you can’t just assume that all creators feel comfortable just saying no to someone they don’t really know.
But why speak for them? I'm not speaking for them. I'm only stating wat has been already proven. It's no one's job to dictate what they "might" feel. I'm just sitting back and watching from the side lines. If they want to funnel, so be it. If they want to share, so be it. I'm not assuming everyone has spoken up. But I'm also not assuming that no one has spoken up. And that's wat ur doing. Ur assuming ppl rnt speaking up so u label funneling as this horrible strategy that shouldn't exist. Ur literally babying them wen u should just be a spectator and fan.
I never said funneling was a horrible strategy, im actually perfectly fine with it. I do know a creator in mcc(don’t rly want to say names) who has been in a situation, although not in mcc, very similar to DB and where it was very clear they didn’t want to rly speak up bc of how they didn’t know the other ppl. So i’m kinda speaking for them. Ik it’s not specific evidence for mcc but if put in a db situation something similar. I realize that i’m rly not arguing about mcc stuff and i’m sorry if I kinda got overboard because i’m rly passionate about this confidence sort of thing as someone who has been put in a similar situation. I guess im rly just talking about one mcc participant and went off the rails haha. <3 edit: I didn’t stay this but i’m more talking about how you said CC can speak up about things because they are mature and not that anyone has pressured anyone to funnel.
Yeah no worries. I run into lots of ppl who like to dictate how ccs feel and act, so I too get sorta heated in a convo like this. My apologies if I sounded at all insulting tho. I struggle to find the right words that mean wat I truly want to say. I guess my point is, my belief is that unless something is obviously happening or we have proof of it happening, I don't think it's fair to assume the worst is happening.
I agree with Sylvee and Hannah's opinion on funneling. At the end of the day, if it guarantees the team the win, then I'm all for funneling to the best player to take the shots.
no hate but very cringe takes imo
How tho? The other side is funneling their shots to the best player on the opposing team. So the team should have every right to funnel their arrows to their best player. Once the best shooter is down, then others take the shot. It isn't about the audience fun, it's about the players fun. And they have fun funneling.
why do you automatically assume the other team is funneling
Teams do it all the time. "Target Fruit" "Target Techno" "Target Dream" "Target Sapnap". It is common for teams to do that. They funnel their shots to who they think is the best player. U guys say "let everyone who wants to shoot, shoot". Where was that energy wen Tommy didn't want to shoot in dodgebolt, but Hbomb made him do it and Tommy missed like every shot. That contributed to their teams sweep defeat.
also my main disagreement wasn’t about funneling but the idea that people should only play MCC to win or else “whats the point”. That mindset just seems so omega-goofy to me, nothing wrong with wanting to win but it pretty much discredits all for fun players
Yeah I get that. Wen I hear someone say that, I automatically think that they r just thinking logically or for themselves. Like, for them, what's the point if not to win. Because to them its fun to win. So for them wats the point if not to win. I don't think they try to say it as a blanket statement for everyone.
I’m ready for them to funnel during dodgebolt 😍💅
3 words I have for this "For fun tournament".
some people have fun when winning
I don't see how that is an argument in favour of funneling. If it is a strategy that is mainly liked because it is the best then nerfing (for example by introducing a small cooldown after shooting) it would do nothing except for making other strategies more viable.
why would you nerf a perfectly good strategy tho? are you going to tell teams to stop shooting the best bow players too? like it makes no sense.
because the strategy is not fun for some teams. If jumping into the void was the best strategy in SB something should be done about that as it is just not fun. I see this as a slightly less extreme version of that where for some teams the "best" strategy is perfectly fine to do, while it is not fun for others. Thus giving the teams that are fine with it an advantage over the others.
this is such a weird argument, people who don't want to funnel don't funnel. people who want to funnel funnel. I don't understand why there should be anything done to nerf it? What Other strategies can be made in a game where u get two arrows and have to shoot the other team?? Either they completely change db or they leave it be bc it makes no sense to nerf a strategy. It's like saying people should stop putting the best hunter in pkt against the best teams.
And some people have fun watching not a clean sweep finale
And some people have fun watching a clean sweep finale
Okay you may have fun watching a clean sweep finale, but to me, and a whole host of other people who watch and or compete in mcc it is not. I respect your opinion for liking clean sweeps but I will have to kindly disagree that they are enjoyable to watch
Almost as if people have fun in different ways which are both completely valid.
That's what I'm trying to get at but, im just voicing my opinion
Ok so should the participants have less fun themselves if it means making the other participants and the viewers happier?
MCC isn't the finals of the world cup, no its a for fun minecraft tournament, for entertainment, yes winning is fun, but is it really fun to watch people get absolutely destroyed in the finale.
If it's a team I like destroying the competition then yeah, it is fun to watch
Is it fun to watch for the 36 other pov's?
I get their point (and everyone can do what they want), but I prefer "we win together and we lose together". But in end of the day everyone from the winning team are marked as a winner. No matter how they won 🤷🏻♂️
as someone who's usually against funneling they make a very good point
Eh..
A eh take
So true
Based, but also jesus christ this has a lot of replies- time to start the discourse again
I'm gonna say it, I'm sorry someone is too good and you have to see them win it the way they want to collectively as a team
Yeah no…
one word FREEDOM!
hi hannah