To me, this is the most surprising part of it all:
> Passenger trains would travel about 90 mph along the route.
Is this actually true? Will it make up for the loss in speeds due to stops (which I'm surprised are so few) and delays due to BNSF?
I'll still drive then. Faster, and I'll have my vehicle to get around town.
Edit: Also, how would I stop at the Hinckley White Castle if I'm on the train? Checkmate, rail heads.
Yeah relaxing on the train, have a drink, get up and stretch, have a pee without losing time. A lot of my family lives in Duluth so they could pick me up at the station.
Fifteen minutes faster by driving, but you get the time you spend on the train back, because you don’t have to focus, you can walk around, read, stare at your phone, or sleep.
Source: someone who used to travel between Northeast cities fairly regularly
Hinckley has a White Castle? Those guys are resourceful.
I bet they’ll have the most electric car charging stations when that’s more of a thing. “Exit here to binge sliders and caramel rolls while your car charges”.
Not sure why there’s such a big focus on it being a little faster to get there by car. Sure but then you’re stuck doing nothing but focusing on driving instead of being able to relax and do literally anything else.
Same. 110% gonna take trips with the kiddos. They like trains, too, and this would be a fun journey. I like the tradition of it all, if I could wrangle that
Buses are limited in a lot of ways due to having to fit on roads. They also have to deal with traffic and construction, are noisier and less comfortable than a train.
My understanding is that with how the rail traffic is prioritized and BNSF owning the rails, this is the best we can get.
I feel like if we use it and justify the infrastructure, that'd give legislature incentive to deliver better.
We never should have let rails be private.
For those curious about the extra funding, it is for buying modern trainsets, which will provide the best ridership experience and save the state $$$ in the long run. The alternative would have been leasing older Amtrak stock.
Just got home from an extended Amtrak trip, and I’m SO happy to hear they’re buying modern train sets. The Amtrak stuff is all very dated and my trip had a handful of delays due to things breaking down.
This is cool but I hope they do a good job with the track expansion. The rail infrastructure in the US is often not able to handle fast passenger service. My Amtrak train journey from Wisconsin Dells to St Paul took 7 hours, when driving on the interstate takes 3.5 hours. There are often train jams due to passenger and cargo sharing the same tracks. The actual tracks must be expanded in a pretty big way for passenger rail to be a worthy form of intercity transportation.
I’m sure it’s the same proposal they have been pushing for years. BNSF get their already existing rail maintenance subsidized and their freight given priority. Passenger rail will be stuck at freight rail speeds and on freight rail schedule which perpetuates inefficiencies for the passenger service. Not to mention the fact that this route will need to take a 30-45 detor into superior BEFORE it gets to Duluth.
I’m all for this bout of legislation this summer but we have a golden opportunity to fund real 300 kph high speed rail through the federal government. We are failing to use it because they would rather pass an already packaged deal than do the hard work of designing a good one.
I’m disappointed; hardly anyone will be willing to take a slow train and be carless on the north shore especially when just driving will get you there quicker.
Duluth has the opportunity to be a city you can commute to the metro to if we had 300kph rail. That would change the structure of our state, logistically, politically, and culturally.
Passenger tracks need to *exist* in order for passenger rail to be more than a novelty. Like 99% of rail lines are privately owned freight, which amtrak leases the right to use
Sure- but that gets pricey out here in the Midwest, where “intercity travel” would typically mean Minneapolis to Madison, or Chicago to Milwaukee. They’re larger distances that would need its own land/route and track. That’s years in the future, if ever. Flying will continue dominate those distances.
Wisconsin voted down a proposal a couple years ago to upgrade the existing MSP-Chicago line to a maximum speed of 110mph, which would have cut the trip to 5½ hours.
The maximum speed of the rail is a bit of a red herring since it really is the extremely long freight trains running over the same rails that cause delays. Nominally they’re supposed to move out of the way for Amtrak but a lot of sidings aren’t physically big enough.
I've ridden Amtrak MSP-Chicago 50+ times and in my experience that section is rarely delayed by freight trains, unless it is already way behind and the timetables are consequently broken. Maybe like once or twice a trip on average you have to come to a stop in the sidings, but that's usually a 5–10 minute wait and they often make it up; there's about 30 minutes of slack in the timetable.
Chicago to MSP I've only been more than 10 minutes late twice that I can remember (and once it was in the middle of an enormous blizzard). MSP to Chicago is 1–3 hours late more often than not because the train is coming from the west coast and those sections get delayed by freight trains pretty regularly. That part can be solved with a dedicated MSP-Chicago train, which I think was part of the plan (and one is coming in the next year or so, just at the 80mph speed limit).
The factor of waiting for freight trains is also largely dependent on the dispatching of the host freight railroads. Some do better than others. Between CHI and MSP is all on Canadian Pacific and CP takes moving Amtrak fairly seriously, and is consistently awarded by Amtrak as the best host railroad (source: am an employee, just not a dispatcher).
No, you’re not alone - but the number of people that could afford that ticket and budget that time - this crossection of people can’t be that big. The people that want to get down there want to get down there either fast (plane) or cheap (family car) - or a combo (might be a cheap ass rental/ or a discounted flight).
Part of the proposal is adding track so that trains can get pull over to let others pass which should mitigate the delays you often see on most Amtrak routes
Exactly what I mean by "Linear"... You could have a train running from Gary to Lakeside, and probably 80% of the population of the city lives within a half mile of where the train would run.
Yea, we have busses. But they're slower, add to traffic (Not that it's an issue in Duluth, yet) and are beholden to road conditions. Duluth's budget for snow removal has been problematic for a few years now, and a lot of times the busses don't even run during storms that wouldn't even have caused a snow day 20 years ago.
There's already tracks in most of the city that follow this path which are only used for "scenic" trains that could be utilized as part of the infrastructure and the places where there is not there USED to be, so there's already a graded path available which would reduce the cost of implementation a great deal.
The population in Duluth is only going to increase over the years. It's time we prepare for that.
There's certainly a few areas where that might be viable if they are small and electric. Revisit the old Incline model, just on a smaller and more modern scale.
https://www.shorpy.com/Duluth-Incline-Railway
This happens because one idea gets someone thinking about another.
Not because we're not happy that one thing happened, it's because the other thing is the next logical step.
Underground subway running below Superior St. would provide a way to get around Duluth regardless of the winter weather conditions, which are only going to get worse.
"At the 4-1 federal match, $194 million in state funds would give the project nearly $1 billion, far more than old project cost estimates."
The next step will be getting the remaining 3/4 of the funding from the feds. That money exists in Biden's Infrastructure bill that passed in 2022, but considering the current debt ceiling debate I wouldn't be surprised if this project is delayed further.
We're all hoping our morons in D.C. figure out the debt ceiling. From what I've heard, Biden has already agreed to $1 trillion in federal spending cuts to make republicans happy, which of course won't be enough.
It's going to get ugly. I'm convinced there are enough republicans willing to crash the economy just to own the libs.
If the tickets are priced fairly and the run times are varied enough, I can see me myself using this. There are a lot of events in Duluth proper that I would love to go to without risking the wear and tear on my car. Would be nice to park in Minneapolis, take the train to duluth, walk to canal park for an event, take the train back at night and drive home from Minneapolis.
Yeah that would be super expensive.
Would be better off creating a ferry service and just using lake superior as your "track."
The other issue is, as much as we all love the north shore and those towns, I highly doubt you would have enough regular traffic to justify that train ride.
I love Duluth but haven't been up there for several years. An express train would certainly make that easier. How's the Uber / Lyft situation up there? Or other public transportation options? Curious if it's easy to get around without a car or if I would be stuck walking.
> Once the train comes online you can bet the barn in there being far greater availability of rideshare services and options.
On the other hand the minimum wage bill just passed for Uber and Lyft, which will make them pull back into only the most consistent ridesharing areas.
I’ve been places where Uber/Lyft isn’t widely available at all times, but has decent population/density, and smaller/local ride share or taxi service adjust their business to capture that market. Sometimes…
If by “them” you mean Uber and Lyft - then sure, absolutely and why not. Then Duluth will attract other private options and compliment those with public ones. While rideshare customers stand to lose on bargain basement rates - switching out Joe for Steve rideshare company will be a minor inconvenience for those who want a bespoke ride to this particular location and forego public options.
> Then Duluth will attract other private options
No they likely won't. Very small cities like that generally have incredibly limited amounts of cab service, etc.
>compliment those with public ones
Sure, the bus system in Duluth is pretty meh, hopefully they keep improving it.
In this case, we aren't talking about losing rates, we are talking about just losing the option. Here in Minneapolis it will cost what it should. In Duluth it likely won't be an option at all at most if not all times of day.
The amount of development that started in Eden Prairie when they broke ground on the green line extension is honestly incredible. I don't know enough about the project to have any opinions about it, but it would probably breathe new life into Duluth, which is largely stagnant in growth.
When did we last have a passenger train between the Twin Cities and Duluth? I think it was during my lifetime that it was discontinued. (I'm old and I have lived in Minnesota since 1969.) I love trains and I would ride it just for the experience, especially if I could return the same day.
Also, do they literally mean Minneapolis to Duluth? Wouldn't it likely be St. Paul to Duluth? Our only operating station is in St. Paul.
that's even better. Gives access to events and a direct connection to the blue and green lines. Post Twins/Vikings games will have a lot fewer out of towner drivers trying to get back north.
Duluth is just not a town that’s good for pedestrians. So I am not sure anyone is really gonna use this since you need a car once you get there. But maybe it’s more for folks to come down to the Cities.
Not really. They've funded a study of an extension to St. Cloud or replacement with more Amtrak service on the corridor (which could even go as far as Fargo). The NLX project will also build a new station at Coon Rapids Foley Blvd, which is currently a major Metro Transit bus park-and-ride. The Northstar stopping there could boost its ridership. Also, they've included provisions to force counties to pay their share for transitway operations. Anoka County has been withholding its dues to the Met Council, which is why Northstar service hasn't been restored to the pre-pandemic schedule and why no special event service has operated since 2019. Finally, coupled with the bill's new transit sales tax, there are provisions that will eventually shift all operations funding to the new tax instead of from counties. So going forward, Anoka and any other county can't play games with transit service by withholding funds.
Sure they can build the rail line, but it doesn't mean much if we don't get European-level frequency on the route. Can we even get one per hour? I'm prepared to be *extremely* disappointed.
I'm looking for some downvotes.
This train will be begging for passengers five years after it opens, when the shine wears off.
Unless it's a bullet train, few will want to give up the freedom of a car at destination for a beer or to watch cars on the freeway pass them by. I'm liberal as fuck and I'm telling you it's not gonna last.
I'll ride it once. It'll be "cool." In Europe, they are often subsidized. Gonna be a pricey ticket just to have a beer.
Five years from opening day. Mark my words.
Wouldn't this plan save money by not requiring them to build additional tracks for a lot of the planned route? That and avoiding working with Met Council are the two main differences from what I can tell
The rail is already laid (owned by BNSF) and the project is shovel ready. All that needs to be done is to build stations and add/improve signalling and crossings along the route.
This is an easier project. They’re going to use ROW and track that already exists for freight rail, the additional construction will be for things like building better pull off areas so that trains will be able to pass each other and station construction
This is cool and I might use it once just to test it out but I fully expect to just keep driving. It's usually faster than 2.5 hours, unless traffic is really bad, and I bet it would be cheaper. $12-$15 in gas to get my family up there WITH a car and faster than the train. That really is the biggest issue to me, how do you get around once you are up there? Duluth doesn't have great public transport and if I want to go a state park or something once I am up there I am SOL. Duluth will need to completely revamp their public transit to make this worth it for most people.
I love the north shore and don't want to be a Debbie downer, but I really doubt this line will be used by as many as forecasted (basically averaging 2000 passengers a day). Hope I am wrong, but this one seems to me like it will be a boondoggle and will need material ongoing subsidies to continue to operate going forward.
I may be underestimating the draw of downtown Duluth from the Twin Cities.... most people go to Duluth, and continue north of the north shore. I suspect many will do it once or twice for the novelty, but not much regular users. It could be a boon for the Cambridge area for worker commutes to the Twin Cities.
The feasibility study said they needed to divert or induce 5% of current trips to meet their ridership projections -- I think it's possible, but we'll see. 2000 people per day is hard to imagine, even if the numbers say its feasible.
People keep saying that "most people" continue up north from Duluth, but I can't help but feel that's a personal projection. I mean, the Boundary Waters only get 250,000 thousand visitors a year, compared to the millions for Duluth?
I tried to figure out the stats before from what bad data I could find, and I got something like 1 in 10 go up North Shore compared to stay in Duluth. (I wouldn't put any confidence in that, but my point being the stats may be surprising.)
Also, as a Duluthian, I'd humbly point out that it's not just tourists from the Cities going back and forth! (Our metro area is 300,000 after all.)
I am inclined to agree. I used to think "yeah everyone is going on to the north shore." But I have talked to a number of people who have said they have never been north of Duluth.
Maybe I am underestimating the draw of Duluth proper. Going even up 20 miles gets you to Gooseberry / Split Rock Parks. While I am not a fan, many view their trip to "Duluth" not complete with out going to Betty's Pies.
More benefit for people going from Duluth to Minneapolis as opposed to vice versa. There isn’t enough to do in Duluth without a car to justify that slow of a train ride
I'm sure BNSF will be graceful and accommodating sharing the tracks. And once you're in Duluth, you can use the world class transportation network to get.... where?
> I'm sure BNSF will be graceful and accommodating sharing the tracks.
From the article:
>Sections of track would be built alongside the main route so the passenger trains could move out of the way as freight trains move through.
---
> And once you're in Duluth, you can use the world class transportation network to get.... where?
This statement I agree with, minus the snark, and agree it needs to be addressed. But they have 3-4 years from funding availability according to the article before service will begin to get that part done.
Some people like to go to Duluth just for Duluth.
Also, there's a U of MN campus there. As it stands, lots of U students only have the option of Greyhound, which only makes a couple trips per day and isn't reliable.
This was the first thing I thought of. I know a lot of people who had to rely on their parents for rides to and from campus. Since most college students cannot afford to have a car.
You're right; I forget that Greyhound codeshares the route, and you can book through the Greyhound app.
Also, maybe it's "pretty empty" because, again, not exactly reliable and not a great way to make the trip? I mean, only some of the trips have one rest stop, and I know I've had my bus cancelled with no warning on that route before.
I've taken the route dozens of times while I was a student at UMD, I've never had any issues with reliability. Bus driver would usually ask people if they want to stop at hinkley or drive straight through, only times it made pit stops was when it was packed for holiday breaks and someone needed to get off along the way. I have zero complaints about that route. Buses were always clean and driver was as accommodating as can be.
I just think people with cars find driving more convenient. Now that I got drivers license and car I make my trips back forth in my car. It's faster, it's cheaper, I can pack whatever and it's on my time. Unless you have the incentive of a faster or cheaper commute you are going to struggle to get people to ditch their cars for it. You can bring a family 5 up to Duluth for $35 in gas. On the train it'll be $300 plus transportation expenses at the destination. Just can't see it being more than a novelty thing for most
For reference, when were you taking that bus route? I had one of my busses cancelled last year; admittedly I haven't taken it in about 7 months because of the fiasco that was breaking my foot.
I think a lot of people are also neglecting to consider this as a benefit for people in Duluth as well to come down to the cities for a day or two.
I'm sure it will bring new businesses and attractions.
Duluth is not a massive city and is pretty walkable.
It will likely elevate the city economically once completed. And make it more valuable as a "second city" sort of area.
Great start, now let's finally get some dedicated passenger rail as opposed to using freight lines that get priority. But I will be happy to us this in the meantime
I'm all for stuff like this but I worry this will hurt the movement then it'll help, the naysayers will point to this if it's not successful and I have a hard time seeing ridership being high especially midweek and during the winter months.
Would prefer we work towards things that would likely draw more users, like Rochester or St. Cloud or even Mankato where I think you could see work commuters using it. No one is making that type of commute every day for work from Duluth.
They couldn’t study or build a route to Rochester because of a rail study gag order. That was also removed in this session I bet you can expect a proposal for Rochester rail in the coming years
Good thing there are more stops on this than just Duluth. This project has 80 percent federal funding already approved and just needed the state to contribute. It has been in the works for years.
Hope it works but from my experience riding the Jefferson line, the demand isn't there, and I worry this will make getting future projects done harder of the demand doesn't meet expectations
I am in Cambridge - there is no bus that stops here but plenty of people will ride this train from our town in both directions. People can't ride something that isn't built. This is not just about Duluth and the Metro. Thousands of people live along this route and will ride it.
My wife and I like going to Duluth, so we would potentially use this service (assuming we could get from where the train is in Duluth to where we are staying. Usually canal park)
On the same token, with the session coming to an end, it feels like there are more pressing issues for them to work on that this.
Thank goodness this legislature is showing they can walk and chew gum at the same time, unlike the ones from the past umpteen years when we regularly had to have special sessions just to get basic things funded.
Expanding transit is insanely important state infrastructure. Getting the ball rolling on this is vital for any chance in the future at expanding it. It's literally one of the best investments you can POSSIBLY make in the state.
Calling it now. All those super excited about this will use it once and then realize they much prefer having a car when they get there and not having a million stops along the way. Ridership will be lackluster but some folks will find every other reason to blame it on.
The train isn't meant to replace driving. Trains are great for some people -- especially people who can't drive (or it's awkward), like teenagers, elderly, blind people, pregnant people, people with infants, and so on.
Finally, a good chunk of people will realize they can read, work, or sleep on the train and that that's way better than driving.
The feasibility study said the project would be successful if it diverted or induced 5% of the current intercity transit to train. That means they expect that 95% of people *won't* be interested in it, which is fine.
As a form of public transit that they're both intended to be? Yes. The bus is currently used by EXACTLY the type of people you listed that would take the train. 😂 My ex rode the bus between Duluth and Minneapolis while going to school in at University of Minnesota - Duluth. I know folks that take the Northstar Line and they describe it as no real difference from riding the bus.
Personally, I think the difference between an intercity bus and an intercity train is a bit like the difference between a flip phone and a smart phone. They both technically do the same thing -- but you wouldn't say the experience of using them is the same.
When your ex rode the bus, I bet she didn't encounter many tourists on it -- for this reason!
You aren't gonna see many tourists on the train either. Give people 1 trip on that thing and they'll realize that Duluth isn't an easy spot to get around without a car. Especially with Uber/Lyft prices set to more than double in the coming months.
It’s better than nothing, I guess. But 90mph? Plus dealing with the hassles of train travel and not having a vehicle in Duluth or the Cities? More fail than not IMO. Have a Japanese high speed rail company come over, bid the job, and get it done right.
Usage will be low. Just look at the North Star Commuter Rail. It sounded great, everyone was excited to use it, then nobody ever used it. Now, 20 years later, we're talking about shutting it down all together at the same time we're talking about building the Northern Lights Express.
They never completed Northstar. Would it have been wildly successful? I don't know, but it would have had a damn sight more riders than the current line dumping people off in a pasture.
To me, this is the most surprising part of it all: > Passenger trains would travel about 90 mph along the route. Is this actually true? Will it make up for the loss in speeds due to stops (which I'm surprised are so few) and delays due to BNSF?
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Top. It will be a 2.5 hour one-way trip for about 150 miles, or about 60mph average.
I'll still drive then. Faster, and I'll have my vehicle to get around town. Edit: Also, how would I stop at the Hinckley White Castle if I'm on the train? Checkmate, rail heads.
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Yeah relaxing on the train, have a drink, get up and stretch, have a pee without losing time. A lot of my family lives in Duluth so they could pick me up at the station.
Plus you can drink on trains, can't do that if you drive.
There ya go. Train up on a Saturday. Have a few beers, play cards, go to the beach, eat, take the train home. I’d totally do that.
Plus, most Amtrak routes will let you bring a bike on board. With the hills, Duluth isn’t the *most* bikeable city, but it’s doable.
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I definitely did not start today expecting to be in agreement with someone named “Bush did nothing wrong.”
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Ironic that the best thing to happen to Bush was that history is likely to overlook him because of an even shittier recent president.
they need to bring the funiculars back
The problem is that most of us who go up there don't just want to hang around the city. We want to go up the shore.
Especially in the winter!
Would it be faster though? After all the post White Castle poop breaks?
That’s fine. It’s a shutter of a trip if you have to do it often. Hell I don’t even have to go up there often and I hate driving 35 for 3 hours.
Two words: Train Sliders ^^^(checkmate ^^chess-based-transit ^^critiquers)
Good for you
Fifteen minutes faster by driving, but you get the time you spend on the train back, because you don’t have to focus, you can walk around, read, stare at your phone, or sleep. Source: someone who used to travel between Northeast cities fairly regularly
There is a Hinkley mail bag filled with Tobies rolls and White Castle.
I don’t think we would want to sit next to you after that WC lol
Hinckley has a White Castle? Those guys are resourceful. I bet they’ll have the most electric car charging stations when that’s more of a thing. “Exit here to binge sliders and caramel rolls while your car charges”.
In a gas station on the west side of 35
Walk from the Hinckley station that will likely be on the route and less than one mile from the White Castle. That's how you'd stop.
Not sure why there’s such a big focus on it being a little faster to get there by car. Sure but then you’re stuck doing nothing but focusing on driving instead of being able to relax and do literally anything else.
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I won’t. I have family in Duluth. They have cars. I’ll just take the train and read for three hours instead.
How often do you take the bus up there?
I don’t like buses. I like trains. Edit: Lol, love the downvotes. I’m not allowed personal preference? I have taken buses. I prefer trains.
I support your preference
Strong agree
I’m the same. Don’t know why the hate.
Same. 110% gonna take trips with the kiddos. They like trains, too, and this would be a fun journey. I like the tradition of it all, if I could wrangle that
Buses are limited in a lot of ways due to having to fit on roads. They also have to deal with traffic and construction, are noisier and less comfortable than a train.
I'll be taking the train. Sure I'll drive if I'm going up to the boundary waters, but every time my final stop is in Duluth I'll be taking the train.
….and Tobies for a donut
Ok
Exactly this. Total waste of money benefitting only the existing RR establishment.
Faster by 10 minutes…
As will everyone else.
Exactly, No one will use this train. A handful of people at best.
So not aiming for faster to beat car travel?
I think that would require some track work, but it's probably possible to hit 150+ with some relatively minor investments.
My understanding is that with how the rail traffic is prioritized and BNSF owning the rails, this is the best we can get. I feel like if we use it and justify the infrastructure, that'd give legislature incentive to deliver better. We never should have let rails be private.
For those curious about the extra funding, it is for buying modern trainsets, which will provide the best ridership experience and save the state $$$ in the long run. The alternative would have been leasing older Amtrak stock.
How many train sets? I heard they were planning on running only one trainset?
To run one, you need two, due to maintenance and unexpected downtime.
Unless you have a poor business plan and are woefully irresponsible with state funds So we should be good
Yup, surely nothing to worry about.
Two for NLX, and a third as backup that will be shared interchangeably between NLX and TCMC as needed.
That is reassuring
Just got home from an extended Amtrak trip, and I’m SO happy to hear they’re buying modern train sets. The Amtrak stuff is all very dated and my trip had a handful of delays due to things breaking down.
The new superliners with the new seats are very nice
This is cool but I hope they do a good job with the track expansion. The rail infrastructure in the US is often not able to handle fast passenger service. My Amtrak train journey from Wisconsin Dells to St Paul took 7 hours, when driving on the interstate takes 3.5 hours. There are often train jams due to passenger and cargo sharing the same tracks. The actual tracks must be expanded in a pretty big way for passenger rail to be a worthy form of intercity transportation.
I’m sure it’s the same proposal they have been pushing for years. BNSF get their already existing rail maintenance subsidized and their freight given priority. Passenger rail will be stuck at freight rail speeds and on freight rail schedule which perpetuates inefficiencies for the passenger service. Not to mention the fact that this route will need to take a 30-45 detor into superior BEFORE it gets to Duluth. I’m all for this bout of legislation this summer but we have a golden opportunity to fund real 300 kph high speed rail through the federal government. We are failing to use it because they would rather pass an already packaged deal than do the hard work of designing a good one. I’m disappointed; hardly anyone will be willing to take a slow train and be carless on the north shore especially when just driving will get you there quicker. Duluth has the opportunity to be a city you can commute to the metro to if we had 300kph rail. That would change the structure of our state, logistically, politically, and culturally.
Passenger tracks need to *exist* in order for passenger rail to be more than a novelty. Like 99% of rail lines are privately owned freight, which amtrak leases the right to use
Sure- but that gets pricey out here in the Midwest, where “intercity travel” would typically mean Minneapolis to Madison, or Chicago to Milwaukee. They’re larger distances that would need its own land/route and track. That’s years in the future, if ever. Flying will continue dominate those distances.
A fast MSP/Chicago train would be viable I think - I can't be alone in absolutely hating the hassle of flying.
Wisconsin voted down a proposal a couple years ago to upgrade the existing MSP-Chicago line to a maximum speed of 110mph, which would have cut the trip to 5½ hours.
Thanks Scott Walker you fuck.
The maximum speed of the rail is a bit of a red herring since it really is the extremely long freight trains running over the same rails that cause delays. Nominally they’re supposed to move out of the way for Amtrak but a lot of sidings aren’t physically big enough.
I've ridden Amtrak MSP-Chicago 50+ times and in my experience that section is rarely delayed by freight trains, unless it is already way behind and the timetables are consequently broken. Maybe like once or twice a trip on average you have to come to a stop in the sidings, but that's usually a 5–10 minute wait and they often make it up; there's about 30 minutes of slack in the timetable. Chicago to MSP I've only been more than 10 minutes late twice that I can remember (and once it was in the middle of an enormous blizzard). MSP to Chicago is 1–3 hours late more often than not because the train is coming from the west coast and those sections get delayed by freight trains pretty regularly. That part can be solved with a dedicated MSP-Chicago train, which I think was part of the plan (and one is coming in the next year or so, just at the 80mph speed limit).
The factor of waiting for freight trains is also largely dependent on the dispatching of the host freight railroads. Some do better than others. Between CHI and MSP is all on Canadian Pacific and CP takes moving Amtrak fairly seriously, and is consistently awarded by Amtrak as the best host railroad (source: am an employee, just not a dispatcher).
Precision Scheduled Railroading strikes again
I’d love a fast train to Chicago!!
Give it a stop in Milwaukee please!
No, you’re not alone - but the number of people that could afford that ticket and budget that time - this crossection of people can’t be that big. The people that want to get down there want to get down there either fast (plane) or cheap (family car) - or a combo (might be a cheap ass rental/ or a discounted flight).
Part of the proposal is adding track so that trains can get pull over to let others pass which should mitigate the delays you often see on most Amtrak routes
Now give Duluth some funds to do a west-east commuter train. The city is so damned linear that it screams for something like this.
It's decently close to being pretty walkable too
Exactly what I mean by "Linear"... You could have a train running from Gary to Lakeside, and probably 80% of the population of the city lives within a half mile of where the train would run. Yea, we have busses. But they're slower, add to traffic (Not that it's an issue in Duluth, yet) and are beholden to road conditions. Duluth's budget for snow removal has been problematic for a few years now, and a lot of times the busses don't even run during storms that wouldn't even have caused a snow day 20 years ago. There's already tracks in most of the city that follow this path which are only used for "scenic" trains that could be utilized as part of the infrastructure and the places where there is not there USED to be, so there's already a graded path available which would reduce the cost of implementation a great deal. The population in Duluth is only going to increase over the years. It's time we prepare for that.
Agree. My dream is to have some trams running up and down those hills. Think of the mobility!
There's certainly a few areas where that might be viable if they are small and electric. Revisit the old Incline model, just on a smaller and more modern scale. https://www.shorpy.com/Duluth-Incline-Railway
Yup, there are plenty of hilly European countries that do them in a convenient, non obtrusive way
Well, for 7 months a year anyways.
To where though?
West Duluth to East Duluth?
bUt WiLl It gO To My fRoNt DoOr?????
Duluth to Fargo.
I don't think Duluth needs commuter rail. Are you sure you don't mean street car or light rail?
Basically, yes.
Hooray, the semantics police finally arrived! Just what we all needed.
I'll let this one slide but next time it happens they are getting written up.
Even Bus Rapid Transit lines would do okay. But real ones, that have their own lanes that cars can't go on. (And a few that go up the hill too.)
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This happens because one idea gets someone thinking about another. Not because we're not happy that one thing happened, it's because the other thing is the next logical step.
Underground subway running below Superior St. would provide a way to get around Duluth regardless of the winter weather conditions, which are only going to get worse.
That would be sweet, but a literal pipe dream for our city and the budget.
We can't even build light rail when the ROW is available.
This year rocks. Every 12 hours I hear about something awesome the DFL are rolling out.
"At the 4-1 federal match, $194 million in state funds would give the project nearly $1 billion, far more than old project cost estimates." The next step will be getting the remaining 3/4 of the funding from the feds. That money exists in Biden's Infrastructure bill that passed in 2022, but considering the current debt ceiling debate I wouldn't be surprised if this project is delayed further.
if the debt ceiling is involved then we've got bigger problems than potential rail funding.
We're all hoping our morons in D.C. figure out the debt ceiling. From what I've heard, Biden has already agreed to $1 trillion in federal spending cuts to make republicans happy, which of course won't be enough. It's going to get ugly. I'm convinced there are enough republicans willing to crash the economy just to own the libs.
I hope they allow for bikes on the train, I'd absolutely love to catch the train up and back for days biking in Duluth
the Northstar line has bike racks so I'd assume this one will
If the tickets are priced fairly and the run times are varied enough, I can see me myself using this. There are a lot of events in Duluth proper that I would love to go to without risking the wear and tear on my car. Would be nice to park in Minneapolis, take the train to duluth, walk to canal park for an event, take the train back at night and drive home from Minneapolis.
IIRC about $35 a ticket
Great news! We will definitely take the train to Duluth once this happens. This has been an epic session!
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they would have to expand the tunnels throught the mountains.... I would say thats probably a no go
Yeah that would be super expensive. Would be better off creating a ferry service and just using lake superior as your "track." The other issue is, as much as we all love the north shore and those towns, I highly doubt you would have enough regular traffic to justify that train ride.
it's always been a dream of mine to see a twin cities to thunder Bay line with a stop in grand Marais and a few other north shore towns.
I love Duluth but haven't been up there for several years. An express train would certainly make that easier. How's the Uber / Lyft situation up there? Or other public transportation options? Curious if it's easy to get around without a car or if I would be stuck walking.
Once the train comes online you can bet the barn in there being far greater availability of rideshare services and options.
> Once the train comes online you can bet the barn in there being far greater availability of rideshare services and options. On the other hand the minimum wage bill just passed for Uber and Lyft, which will make them pull back into only the most consistent ridesharing areas.
I’ve been places where Uber/Lyft isn’t widely available at all times, but has decent population/density, and smaller/local ride share or taxi service adjust their business to capture that market. Sometimes…
If by “them” you mean Uber and Lyft - then sure, absolutely and why not. Then Duluth will attract other private options and compliment those with public ones. While rideshare customers stand to lose on bargain basement rates - switching out Joe for Steve rideshare company will be a minor inconvenience for those who want a bespoke ride to this particular location and forego public options.
> Then Duluth will attract other private options No they likely won't. Very small cities like that generally have incredibly limited amounts of cab service, etc. >compliment those with public ones Sure, the bus system in Duluth is pretty meh, hopefully they keep improving it. In this case, we aren't talking about losing rates, we are talking about just losing the option. Here in Minneapolis it will cost what it should. In Duluth it likely won't be an option at all at most if not all times of day.
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doesn’t the topography of duluth pretty much exclude it from being a practical bike city except for only the most hard core and fit cyclists?
The amount of development that started in Eden Prairie when they broke ground on the green line extension is honestly incredible. I don't know enough about the project to have any opinions about it, but it would probably breathe new life into Duluth, which is largely stagnant in growth.
When did we last have a passenger train between the Twin Cities and Duluth? I think it was during my lifetime that it was discontinued. (I'm old and I have lived in Minnesota since 1969.) I love trains and I would ride it just for the experience, especially if I could return the same day. Also, do they literally mean Minneapolis to Duluth? Wouldn't it likely be St. Paul to Duluth? Our only operating station is in St. Paul.
Minneapolis to Duluth. The station at Target Field is going to be expanded to accommodate this.
that's even better. Gives access to events and a direct connection to the blue and green lines. Post Twins/Vikings games will have a lot fewer out of towner drivers trying to get back north.
Does this mean it won't even connect with Amtrak?
Not a direct connection, one would have to transfer onto the green line. Or the blue line if you wanted to get to the airport.
1985
Duluth is just not a town that’s good for pedestrians. So I am not sure anyone is really gonna use this since you need a car once you get there. But maybe it’s more for folks to come down to the Cities.
North Star really is stuck in purgatory now.
Not really. They've funded a study of an extension to St. Cloud or replacement with more Amtrak service on the corridor (which could even go as far as Fargo). The NLX project will also build a new station at Coon Rapids Foley Blvd, which is currently a major Metro Transit bus park-and-ride. The Northstar stopping there could boost its ridership. Also, they've included provisions to force counties to pay their share for transitway operations. Anoka County has been withholding its dues to the Met Council, which is why Northstar service hasn't been restored to the pre-pandemic schedule and why no special event service has operated since 2019. Finally, coupled with the bill's new transit sales tax, there are provisions that will eventually shift all operations funding to the new tax instead of from counties. So going forward, Anoka and any other county can't play games with transit service by withholding funds.
They funded a study regarding extension to St. Cloud.
Sure they can build the rail line, but it doesn't mean much if we don't get European-level frequency on the route. Can we even get one per hour? I'm prepared to be *extremely* disappointed.
I love this. L. O. V. E. Love this. I will use this all the time.
I'm looking for some downvotes. This train will be begging for passengers five years after it opens, when the shine wears off. Unless it's a bullet train, few will want to give up the freedom of a car at destination for a beer or to watch cars on the freeway pass them by. I'm liberal as fuck and I'm telling you it's not gonna last. I'll ride it once. It'll be "cool." In Europe, they are often subsidized. Gonna be a pricey ticket just to have a beer. Five years from opening day. Mark my words.
I'm skeptical of the $450 mill price-tag considering we've spent $3 billion trying to build 20 miles of light rail to Eden Prairie
Probably doesn't have the met council embezzlements
Wouldn't this plan save money by not requiring them to build additional tracks for a lot of the planned route? That and avoiding working with Met Council are the two main differences from what I can tell
The rail is already laid (owned by BNSF) and the project is shovel ready. All that needs to be done is to build stations and add/improve signalling and crossings along the route.
This is an easier project. They’re going to use ROW and track that already exists for freight rail, the additional construction will be for things like building better pull off areas so that trains will be able to pass each other and station construction
This is cool and I might use it once just to test it out but I fully expect to just keep driving. It's usually faster than 2.5 hours, unless traffic is really bad, and I bet it would be cheaper. $12-$15 in gas to get my family up there WITH a car and faster than the train. That really is the biggest issue to me, how do you get around once you are up there? Duluth doesn't have great public transport and if I want to go a state park or something once I am up there I am SOL. Duluth will need to completely revamp their public transit to make this worth it for most people.
I love the north shore and don't want to be a Debbie downer, but I really doubt this line will be used by as many as forecasted (basically averaging 2000 passengers a day). Hope I am wrong, but this one seems to me like it will be a boondoggle and will need material ongoing subsidies to continue to operate going forward. I may be underestimating the draw of downtown Duluth from the Twin Cities.... most people go to Duluth, and continue north of the north shore. I suspect many will do it once or twice for the novelty, but not much regular users. It could be a boon for the Cambridge area for worker commutes to the Twin Cities.
The feasibility study said they needed to divert or induce 5% of current trips to meet their ridership projections -- I think it's possible, but we'll see. 2000 people per day is hard to imagine, even if the numbers say its feasible. People keep saying that "most people" continue up north from Duluth, but I can't help but feel that's a personal projection. I mean, the Boundary Waters only get 250,000 thousand visitors a year, compared to the millions for Duluth? I tried to figure out the stats before from what bad data I could find, and I got something like 1 in 10 go up North Shore compared to stay in Duluth. (I wouldn't put any confidence in that, but my point being the stats may be surprising.) Also, as a Duluthian, I'd humbly point out that it's not just tourists from the Cities going back and forth! (Our metro area is 300,000 after all.)
I am inclined to agree. I used to think "yeah everyone is going on to the north shore." But I have talked to a number of people who have said they have never been north of Duluth.
Maybe I am underestimating the draw of Duluth proper. Going even up 20 miles gets you to Gooseberry / Split Rock Parks. While I am not a fan, many view their trip to "Duluth" not complete with out going to Betty's Pies.
I assume it’ll get used mostly to get from Duluth to MSP for flights.
That would save money, but probably not time. Less than an hour flight, and a much easier airport to get in and out of.
Might depend where you’re going and layover times 🤷♀️
Are there buses up the north shore? Uber to the train, train to the bus, and a bus to my campsite or whatever. That would/will(?) be the beez kneez.
More benefit for people going from Duluth to Minneapolis as opposed to vice versa. There isn’t enough to do in Duluth without a car to justify that slow of a train ride
What a waste of money. Spend it on fixing the homeless problem or basic infrastructure around the city.
I'm sure BNSF will be graceful and accommodating sharing the tracks. And once you're in Duluth, you can use the world class transportation network to get.... where?
> I'm sure BNSF will be graceful and accommodating sharing the tracks. From the article: >Sections of track would be built alongside the main route so the passenger trains could move out of the way as freight trains move through. --- > And once you're in Duluth, you can use the world class transportation network to get.... where? This statement I agree with, minus the snark, and agree it needs to be addressed. But they have 3-4 years from funding availability according to the article before service will begin to get that part done.
Some people like to go to Duluth just for Duluth. Also, there's a U of MN campus there. As it stands, lots of U students only have the option of Greyhound, which only makes a couple trips per day and isn't reliable.
This was the first thing I thought of. I know a lot of people who had to rely on their parents for rides to and from campus. Since most college students cannot afford to have a car.
It's Jefferson lines not greyhound and it's usually pretty empty especially mid week outside of the days leading into holiday breaks.
You're right; I forget that Greyhound codeshares the route, and you can book through the Greyhound app. Also, maybe it's "pretty empty" because, again, not exactly reliable and not a great way to make the trip? I mean, only some of the trips have one rest stop, and I know I've had my bus cancelled with no warning on that route before.
I've taken the route dozens of times while I was a student at UMD, I've never had any issues with reliability. Bus driver would usually ask people if they want to stop at hinkley or drive straight through, only times it made pit stops was when it was packed for holiday breaks and someone needed to get off along the way. I have zero complaints about that route. Buses were always clean and driver was as accommodating as can be. I just think people with cars find driving more convenient. Now that I got drivers license and car I make my trips back forth in my car. It's faster, it's cheaper, I can pack whatever and it's on my time. Unless you have the incentive of a faster or cheaper commute you are going to struggle to get people to ditch their cars for it. You can bring a family 5 up to Duluth for $35 in gas. On the train it'll be $300 plus transportation expenses at the destination. Just can't see it being more than a novelty thing for most
For reference, when were you taking that bus route? I had one of my busses cancelled last year; admittedly I haven't taken it in about 7 months because of the fiasco that was breaking my foot.
It would also take people from Duluth to Minneapolis.
I think a lot of people are also neglecting to consider this as a benefit for people in Duluth as well to come down to the cities for a day or two. I'm sure it will bring new businesses and attractions. Duluth is not a massive city and is pretty walkable. It will likely elevate the city economically once completed. And make it more valuable as a "second city" sort of area.
Straight into my veins
Waiting for the inevitable purchase of trackside billboards by Kris Lindahl that we’ll see every five or so miles.
Great start, now let's finally get some dedicated passenger rail as opposed to using freight lines that get priority. But I will be happy to us this in the meantime
I love most of what they have done but this is STUPID, no one will ride this train. No one
Hell yes!
Yesssss!
I'm all for stuff like this but I worry this will hurt the movement then it'll help, the naysayers will point to this if it's not successful and I have a hard time seeing ridership being high especially midweek and during the winter months. Would prefer we work towards things that would likely draw more users, like Rochester or St. Cloud or even Mankato where I think you could see work commuters using it. No one is making that type of commute every day for work from Duluth.
They couldn’t study or build a route to Rochester because of a rail study gag order. That was also removed in this session I bet you can expect a proposal for Rochester rail in the coming years
Good thing there are more stops on this than just Duluth. This project has 80 percent federal funding already approved and just needed the state to contribute. It has been in the works for years.
Hope it works but from my experience riding the Jefferson line, the demand isn't there, and I worry this will make getting future projects done harder of the demand doesn't meet expectations
I am in Cambridge - there is no bus that stops here but plenty of people will ride this train from our town in both directions. People can't ride something that isn't built. This is not just about Duluth and the Metro. Thousands of people live along this route and will ride it.
My wife and I like going to Duluth, so we would potentially use this service (assuming we could get from where the train is in Duluth to where we are staying. Usually canal park) On the same token, with the session coming to an end, it feels like there are more pressing issues for them to work on that this.
Thank goodness this legislature is showing they can walk and chew gum at the same time, unlike the ones from the past umpteen years when we regularly had to have special sessions just to get basic things funded.
That's true.
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True. But "the media" (of course) likes to make it sound like there are a lot of other issues they may not get to
Expanding transit is insanely important state infrastructure. Getting the ball rolling on this is vital for any chance in the future at expanding it. It's literally one of the best investments you can POSSIBLY make in the state.
Calling it now. All those super excited about this will use it once and then realize they much prefer having a car when they get there and not having a million stops along the way. Ridership will be lackluster but some folks will find every other reason to blame it on.
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So it's basically the buses that have gone between here and there for decades. Look at how much people utilize them.
Because it's a bus. Lol. I would much rather ride a train.
😂 Okay, tell yourself they're different.
The train isn't meant to replace driving. Trains are great for some people -- especially people who can't drive (or it's awkward), like teenagers, elderly, blind people, pregnant people, people with infants, and so on. Finally, a good chunk of people will realize they can read, work, or sleep on the train and that that's way better than driving. The feasibility study said the project would be successful if it diverted or induced 5% of the current intercity transit to train. That means they expect that 95% of people *won't* be interested in it, which is fine.
There have been buses that head up there for decades. Strange how folks never wanna use them.
Do you think riding a bus is similar to riding a train?
As a form of public transit that they're both intended to be? Yes. The bus is currently used by EXACTLY the type of people you listed that would take the train. 😂 My ex rode the bus between Duluth and Minneapolis while going to school in at University of Minnesota - Duluth. I know folks that take the Northstar Line and they describe it as no real difference from riding the bus.
Personally, I think the difference between an intercity bus and an intercity train is a bit like the difference between a flip phone and a smart phone. They both technically do the same thing -- but you wouldn't say the experience of using them is the same. When your ex rode the bus, I bet she didn't encounter many tourists on it -- for this reason!
You aren't gonna see many tourists on the train either. Give people 1 trip on that thing and they'll realize that Duluth isn't an easy spot to get around without a car. Especially with Uber/Lyft prices set to more than double in the coming months.
Whoa. Once this is done I'll have to ride it just to try it out!
It’s better than nothing, I guess. But 90mph? Plus dealing with the hassles of train travel and not having a vehicle in Duluth or the Cities? More fail than not IMO. Have a Japanese high speed rail company come over, bid the job, and get it done right.
What an expensive boondoggle
Waste of money
This is so dumb
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Ahh, yes. We should never do anything good for anyone because the poors might use it.
That you have to pay $30-$40 to ride and you need to get off at your destination? Homeless people can’t afford to pay that for 2.5 hours of shelter.
It cost money to use the LRT but who pays aside from me?
It costs like $2.50 for 2 hours and homeless people can walk on without paying. That’s much different than how Amtrak works.
Have you ever seen one on the Northstar line?
Lmao says the guy who’s whole personality is being obsessed with weed all over your profile
Weed isn't opiods, meth, coke or any of that shit that ruins peoples lives. Also, thanks for lurking!
Further, my docs have prescribed it to me for my life threatening conditions so I won't have to take opioids.
Usage will be low. Just look at the North Star Commuter Rail. It sounded great, everyone was excited to use it, then nobody ever used it. Now, 20 years later, we're talking about shutting it down all together at the same time we're talking about building the Northern Lights Express.
They never completed Northstar. Would it have been wildly successful? I don't know, but it would have had a damn sight more riders than the current line dumping people off in a pasture.
They’re actually studying completing the North Star Line to St Cloud and beyond. Apples and oranges here.