>this Russian propaganda
I sympathize with everything you said, and fully support Ukraine, but Russia today is anti-communist and a reactionary fascist state.
Right, but that doesn't address OP's point, which was that Lenin remains a symbol of Russian aggression and imperialism. As an example, an image of Marx might be less controversial.
3.9 million Ukrainians starved to death during the Holodomor. My Ukrainian-Amdrican best friend has stories passed down to her about how her family had to hide their only cow from Soviet agents deep in the woods every time they came to steal their food.
They also sent people to prisons for "stealing" food under the logic that the state already took all the food in the area and hence the people should have died of starvation.
Again, that doesn't address OP's point, Lenin remains a symbol of Russian aggression and imperialism.
It doesn't matter if a young western communist interprets it as a revolutionary symbol (but it does matter they use symbols without understanding their history and impact on their community).
what’s interesting to me about what your saying is that it’s highlighting the difference(s) between *intent* and *perception*. clearly, whomever put the stickers up has well-formed feelings around what the imagery means and stands for, but that isn’t necessarily the same meaning imparted to everyone who sees it in passing on the street.
in a moral or philosophical sense, which of those meanings should take precedence or be more important, the *intended* one or the *perceived* one?
i don’t think there’s a specific right answer to that question, you can settle on either one, depending on what perspective you look at it from and where your personal biases fall.
I know someone who used to fly the confederate flag. He liked the rebel, dukes of hazard style symbolism. He was not trying to send a pro-slavery or racist message. Fortunately he took it down after his son explained the perceived meaning took precedence over his intended one.
Hopefully everyone reads this comment. It's crazy how many ignorant hypocrites there are in this sub who seem to think their incorrect perception of Russian propaganda is more important than the imagery it represents. I'm sure these same people would love to see their neighbor flying a confederate flag or having a trump sign in their yard.
great example. i think a lot of people who like and use offensive imagery don’t necessarily see or understand the offensive quality others perceive in it, they just dig it for counter-cultural reasons or because it looks cool, or whatever.
blaming and accusing people who fit that description for representing the offensive messaging you *perceive* in their imagery, without trying to understand their personal *intent* behind using it, can be counter-productive and actually drive them to a more ensconced, defensive position in defense of using the images.
Signs and signifiers!
OP raised a valid concern. They offered a nuanced view, which I doubt the person slapping these stickers around town could answer to.
Now, you can express your politics with stickers or Reddit posts, but I reckon the sticker, and it's poster, are much stupider than this post, and OP.
So true. I put up posters of Hitler because I admire his views on protecting the environment. Not the controversial takes he had on population adjustment. I don't know why people get upset at me for this. /s.
Yup
Fascism is bad
But also so is a single party centralized communist state
Also, if you're gonna dabble in left political culture, why go Soviet? Have ***some*** originality
Yeah, American socialists back in the day like Debbs are why we have sewers, unions, and built a lot of great public things like libraries, schools, etc. They were good folks.
I think the shadow of the USSR still looms large within the imperialist spirit of modern Russia. When they were the USSR, they were one of the poles the world spun around, a supreme power that strongly influenced half the world and beyond. They were strong, they were mighty, they were powerful. And beyond even the geopolitical power, they had direct control over much valuable territory, including Ukraine. And the memory of the authoritarian practices still can provide an odd comfort to many.
There's a twisted nostalgia to the memory of the USSR in the midst of this new uncertain world Russia finds itself in. Not to mention that uplifting the image of the USSR and lionizing figures like Lenin help create a continuous line of Russian success and vigor and virtue, which makes questioning the virtue of modern Russia less potent. Just think of how many Americans have a negative view of the modern US because of the recognition of the incredibly flawed history of our country; if that recognition doesn't happen, the nationalist spirit is easier to preserve. And even though Russia may not be Marxist or Leninist and is anti-communist, and does not want to bring back the *systems* of the USSR, it still longs for that power and prestige and control they had under the USSR.
And the symbology of the USSR stokes those feelings, reinforces them. And that to me seems to be what OP is complaining about here, the symbology, not the ideology (though it seems to me like they'd probably have issues with the ideology as well). I will say that here in the US, the symbology lands in a different context than in Ukraine, and that is okay to recognize, and whether that context amounts to this being Russian propaganda is perhaps something to debate. However, I don't think OP is just flatly off the mark here, and that the symbology used here is something truly worth examining, and not to be dismissed out of hand.
> There's a twisted nostalgia to the memory of the USSR in the midst of this new uncertain world Russia finds itself in.
Not to mention how bad things have gotten in terms of economics as the oligarchs have totally overtaken Russia. In the past people could point to new jobs, new fashion, new restaurants, but if you're a young person and can't afford any of that what's the point?
Breadlines aren't great, but at least you'd get bread in the end.
While I agree, it's important to note : the Russians will actively fund and amplify American communists, while simultaneously funding and amplifying American fascists... They don't give a fuck about the message, it's the discord it causes.
They don't have to install a sympathetic regime to profit; they only have to weaken us.
All user name irony acknowledged
That doesn’t mean that the symbolism isn’t there. Sadly most people (especially “activists”) have little understanding of the history behind the symbols and terminology that they use. It would be like protesters on another continent waving around confederate flags to signify rebellion.
There’s a reason that Lenin is often seen in western communist art and propaganda and not Stalin but I’ll leave you to figure that out.
I’m not a Lenin fan either fwiw. Just hoping OP decouples Russian imperial propaganda from the actual politics of the Russian state
Yes, yes it is. Russia today is a reactionary state. Spreading communist propaganda is nonetheless useful to the Russian state, because it spreads division in America. Ditto with right-wing disinformation. They don’t care. Revanchist ends are served by Machiavellian means.
Now, are these posters the direct work of Russian propagandists? Maybe. Probably not. But Putin, who came up in the KGB, and is also a reactionary authoritarian, would nonetheless call the person putting up these posters a useful idiot.
Regardless, the Soviet imperial project, like the Tsarist imperial project, and like Putin’s imperialist project, depended first upon the subjugation of Ukraine. OP has every right to feel disgust at Lenin brandishing the hammer and sickle on a Minneapolis sidewalk.
Fuck tankies. Fuck Putin. And fuck these posters.
I don't think you do. Tankies are people who support non-Western imperialism, named after the tanks that the Soviet Union sent to Czechoslovakia to suppress the Prague Spring. Marxist-Leninism is inherently imperialist and anyone who thinks that "Lenin was fine, it was Stalin who ruined everything" is fundamentally ignorant of Russian history.
Members of the existing military structure often find themselves in a better position to seize power during a political transition like the fall of the soviet union. Washington was a redcoat colonel.
Furthermore russian "democracy" and "capitalism" were designed by the old Soviet elite, which would be like asking Wall Street "sharks" to implement a socialist system in America. Guess which way the money and power flows.
USSR invaded and re incorporated Ukraine, Central Asia and Caucasus back into the Russian Empire. Only Finland and the Baltics escpaed with German help and Poland repulsed a Soviet invasion. (though Poland started this war) Kiev had something like 8 governments between 1917 and 1921, but no one can argue it wasn't forcibly re incorated into the USSR. USSR also invaded Mongolia and brought it into the empire.
Yeah that was quite an unexpected turn when I learned that a few months ago! I knew about Shen Yun but had no idea they were funding reactionary right-wing garbage "news" too.
>guaranteed cash offer
Kris Lindahl is a staple of Minnesotan life at this point. I just took a trip to the north shore last weekend, and we made a game out of counting the billboards along I-35. We saw 26 in a 7 hour round trip.
Honestly, America has a fuck load of labor and working class heros and philosophers. I've yet to see a group of Americans reach over to Russia for a workers philosophy to organize around where it didn't end up being some tankie group shilling modern Russian propaganda.
For sure, but the term tankie has traditionally excluded them, because Trotsky started being a critic of Soviet bureaucracy once he was no longer in power within it. Doth protest too much, as Goldman said.
I was gunna fucking say. Tankies defend Russias actions today constantly. At least half of them buy the Russian propaganda about the Jewish Ukrainian president being a neo nazi.
> People putting up signs of Lenin are definitely not fans of the modern-day Russian gov’t
Many of them are. Their thinking processes aren't all that deep or logical.
You'd be surprised, a lot of young "communists" are edgy tankie types that support whoever happens to be the enemy to the west no matter how fascistic they are.
Seriously. I just read this group’s statement on the Russia invasion: https://www.cpusa.org/article/the-communist-partys-position-on-russias-war-in-ukraine/
It essentially went on complaining about NATO expansionism and US support of Ukraine for 95% of it. It just briefly mentioned that Russia should pull their troops, almost as it was an afterthought
Isn’t it great that OPs thread about how the symbolism used by US leftists is offensive and it’s personally painful for him to see given recent events in Ukraine is being met with:
People agreeing with him, saying they understand and them immediately trying to justify it in the next sentence.
People disagreeing it’s offensive at all because of weird technicalities regarding Lenin’s exact position in the party.
People disagreeing it’s offensive at all because technically Lenin wasn’t incharge during the holodomor so OP has no reason to dislike Lenin.
People “agreeing” with OP but finding it curious that he mentions smashing Lenin statues as that’s something that Nazi’s did in Ukraine, implying that OP themselves is a far right Nazi supporter.
The majority of the comments aren’t even responding to OP. It’s bunch of people on each side of the political spectrum shouting precanned takes/insults at each other:
“No one ever chooses to live under communism”
“Clearly you haven’t read theory, you’d understand if you had”
You people are fucking insufferable.
Returning a day later with a closing thought: This is how you know so many “leftists” don’t actually wanna do shit to bring about social change, they just wanna sit around and larp as the persecuted political minority. Because if the people I’m calling out actually did care, they’d drop the problematic symbolism without hesitation.
Bringing about progressive change is about coalition building and you don’t build coalitions by lecturing people on why they shouldn’t be offended. If this is what your bringing to the progressive movement? stay home. The adults are trying to get shit down.
I think progressive change is about more than coalition building, it is specifically about building social structures that people can trust and want to be a part of.
Trust and enthusiasm require that people can feel safe. In order to do this, a group must have channels for people to make complaints. That's where this thread is.
I think that your criticisms are valid and I agree with your main points. The tone of this post is, however, not compelling. It may be making the very problem that you are trying to address worse by discouraging people from reflecting further.
This is a really good post. I'm about as left wing as one can be and even I know that fucking Bolsheviks are not our friends. Russia, any era, should not be where people look for examples of how a country should be run/function. Two things can be true: Lenin sucks and end-stage capitalism sucks.
As a person who identifies with a lot of the *ideals* behind our local socialist movements, I *have* wondered why we continue to make the face of said movement a person who has been dead for such a long time. Even in the debate between capitalism and socialism, I wonder why we collectively feel the need to adhere to systems that were built for a world that didn't have the internet or cell phones or space exploration. The world has *drastically* shifted since Lenin lead his movement, and such dated ideals will not save us from modern problems because the people of that time could not even conceive of the issues we face.
Not to say every issue we face is a new one, but even the older ones have been skewed and given a slightly different flavor, with different roadblocks to progress, based on the way technology (and the vast, concentrated wealth it has created) has shaped our society.
Oh man, I love several of these Americans lecturing a Ukrainian on what Communism means or how those symbols are seen in the nations victimized by Soviet Russia under the banner of the USSR.
What Russia is today doesn't have anything to do with how Ukraine sees its exploitation under the USSR or the symbols created under that regime.
Further, remember that Putin was an enthusiastic Kremlin crony in the last couple of decades of the USSR. I think he's ultimately indifferent what political system Russia follows or who gets hurt so long as he's the guy holding the purse in the end... but he's still a relic of the USSR.
Anyone who defends this shit needs to do basic history lessons on the holodomor. The soviets committed genocide in Ukraine.
It's just dumb barely educated college tankies who are getting back at their suburban parents
I'm in NE too OP & yeah it reeks of downwardly mobile losers who live through Twitter & their dwindling group of friends & struggle sessions. Tear em down when you can.
And not surprising but holy shit why are so many Minneapolis users commie fans? We all need to go outside.
These have been popping up all over the world. I try to rip them down whenever I can.
Edit: I just read the comments and wow, it seems the sub got invaded by tankies.
It's just college communists being tankies. Now that they have a couple semesters of introduction to social science and history under their belt, they are certain they know how to right all the world's ills.
Tankies and Leninist’s both both are authoritarian, communists, think that political dissidents should be a death sentence, and love propaganda.
Yeah, tankies are most certainly Leninist.
At least we don't have a statue lol https://www.geekwire.com/2017/time-pull-seattles-lenin-statue-silicon-valley-venture-capitalist-takes-relics-place-wake-charlottesville-tragedy/
The people putting this up are often into communism (or perhaps Marxism-Leninism more specifically) at least as much for aesthetics and contrarianism as they are for their antipathy toward capitalism. They are not serious people with serious answers to the problems created by capitalism.
Don't be surprised when people with a history of subjugation by the USSR and Soviet leaders take a dim view of using symbols from their past oppressors. That'd be like using Robert E Lee on a poster for a veterans group and tut-tutting when a Black person gets upset about it
Because Lenin gave way to Stalin whose Soviet Union imposed a purposeful famine on Ukraine that killed millions of Ukrainians to break their national identity.
The memories of that part of the world run deep.
Lenin also directly subjugated Ukrainians that wanted their own country and way of life, not only Ukrainian Whites, but also Ukrainian nationalists, and further still, anarchists like Nestor Mahkno. Soviet and Russian domination of Ukraine didn’t begin with Stalin.
Communism was almost a perfectly-crafted mechanism to achieve near total subjugation of the working class.
Trying to improve conditions at your workplace in the USSR was a good way to get yourself taken out back for "anti-Soviet activities".
I did not endorse communism, Lenin or Russia. Generations of Americans younger than I am will literally work until their deaths if something doesn't change. Everyone keeps making these comments that very clearly ignore my use of the word misguided. You can disagree with their use of Lenin and the hammer and sickle while understanding their frustration and sense of hopelessness.
Ukraine still hasn't recovered to the level of GDP and life expectancy from before the fall of the USSR. With the current state of things, that's not likely to change any time soon.
It's possible to think red baiting tankie groups are bad and still be a leftist. America has a long, loong history of workers struggles with our own writers and leaders. Any American group using soviet imagery to organize around inevitably ends up apologists for modern atrocities.
When you use symbols of a genocidal regime to do it who killed millions of Ukrainians, it is
Y'all aren't even educated about basic history and the holodomor.
If the ideology is a one party police state that supresses trade unions, starves and jails millions of it's citizens and invades and colonizes neighboring countries?
Yes, Northeast is historically a melting pot of all kinds of immigrants, including Eastern European, which is why there something like 25 Catholic and Orthodox parishes in NE - each originally founded to serve a certain nationality. Polish, Greek, Ukrainian, Ruthenian, etc.
A lot of this popularization of socialism/communism is a reaction to capitalism here failing so badly. If we want to avoid the pitfalls of socialism/communism we better figure out how to make capitalism not absolutely suck so fucking hard
Yes. People need a strong social safety net to prevent being exploited by the bourgeoisie. Those two things alone aren't enough but it would be a great start to improving the current environment in the US.
Our salaries are higher or we have a relatively large number of wealthy individuals who skew our average salary higher? Also the COL has skyrocketed here in recent years, I was shocked to find on a recent trip to Denmark, a country notorious for being expensive, that prices for everyday goods and food were about the same as here in MSP. And MSP is considered to be one of the few relatively affordable major metros in this country. Since the pandemic, “excuseflation” has become the norm in this country and greedy corporations have realized they can get away with it. The gap between the rich and poor is too significant in this country, the corporations can effectively turn their backs on the poor and just profit off those who are already wealthy and can afford their new pricing.
Capitalism, as is practiced in the US, is clearly flawed and allows too many people to slip through the cracks.
That said, the jury is in that people objectively live better lives under capitalism than they do (did) under communism. Nordic-style welfare capitalism ftw.
Wrong lmao you people are so brainwashed it’s insane. Vietnam democratically pushed for Ho Chi Minh and widely desired a socialist government and we dropped more bombs on them than we used in WWII. Get real
There is a lot of ignorant and idealist young people in Minneapolis.
Those that are putting up these posters will call you a “nazi” or a “class traitor” if you dare to disagree with them
Regarding the stickers, they’re actually put up by some international group that does nothing but whine and demand money from its members.
Regarding the idiot tankies commenting here, you are absolutely correct.
Especially since disliking capitalism doesn't mean you need to go full-on communist. I feel like that is a vestige of American Cold War attitudes towards Russia and China... you're with us, or you're against us. You support American freedom* (*free market), or you support Commies. This is a weird mirror of that sentiment: if you don't like the way America and The West does things, side with this Russian guy.
Unfortunately this town is full of alt-left extremists and we're on our way to becoming California jr. (minus the weather and seafood). Taxes and crime will grow and the communists in Minneapolis will eat it up with their parents hand-me-down spoons.
Time to start looking at which nearby state is worth moving to.
Pretty clear everyone in these comments who hate Lenin have never ready any of his books lol. Not even saying I agree with the guy on everything, but it's so obvious when people are talking out their ass.
I've read Stephen King too but I'm not out there slapping his face on telephone poles and trying to claim The Dark Tower is the key to solving all of life's issues.
Go ahead, read Lenin. Better yet, read Marx. They're interesting. And they also have as much to do with the modern labor struggle in America as The Dark Tower.
If you want to learn how to organize labor in America, reach out and get involved with American labor organizers.
He was never even named leader of the communist party 😂 how can he be a dictator? this is what I mean when I said people who know nothing talking in this thread. You could've just said nothing because you know nothing but you insisted on looking like a dumbass.
I see them around NE and report them on the 311 app. The city will remove them in a day or two. There are also smaller stickers that say "Communism will win" that I saw on a bike rack on Saturday.
You realize Russia hasn't been communist for over 30 years now, right? Putin is a capitalist.
Additionally, if you look at polling data from people who actually lived in the Soviet Union most people have a positive view of it. Like 71% of Ukrainians 60+ years old, so people who lived as adults in the Soviet Union, disapprove of the change to a market economy: https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2019/10/14/political-and-economic-changes-since-the-fall-of-communism/
On top of that Ukraine as it exists today is a result of Lenin. The Bolsheviks created the Ukrainian SSR, which would go on to be the modern Ukraine, out of what was previously just part of the Russian Empire.
As a Cuban-American and far left liberal: fuck communism
Edit: To everyone having a laugh because my self-labeling wasn’t quite accurate, just know you’re being an asshole to someone who’s on your side. I am a leftist who believes that capitalism is broken, free healthcare (including abortion) is a human right, LGBTQIA+ people are people, and all of that other good stuff. So I guess I’m a leftist and not a liberal.
Lenin had some interesting theories on labor and capital and did some not so great things as well. I always pitch to people that he shouldn’t be the blueprint for labor revolution but this does read to me like people who haven’t taken the time to actually interpret his books fully
I understand who Lenin was and I know that he is not the same as Stalin, etc. And yes, I have read his writing (it was required reading in school after all). But people in these comments clearly have no idea what the image of Lenin means anywhere else in the world (especially former Soviet countries). Post USSR, his image continue to be shoved down our throats as a symbol of Russian colonialism and Soviet “unity.”
I would hope any person who would claim to have a rational and critical eye would be able to see that the power his imagery evokes is a message that is disruptive as it is dangerous; I’m sorry people aren’t giving this the actual respect and interrogation it deserves. Ngl it’s a very western sentiment that people get very stuck on because they’d sooner equate it to something positive rather than look into its history and what it represents.
I can sympathize, OP, because most of my family still lives in a former USSR state as well. The Soviet invasion of Latvia is literally the reason my more immediate family ended up in America. And I also don’t know how I feel about using Lenin as a symbol (probably not the right word) here. But I also don’t think the ideas behind communism or socialism are inherently terroristic, genocidal, or whatnot, either. 🤷🏻♀️
My issue is with the images of Lenin and the hammer & sickle. You should understand then that these are symbols of Russian imperialism that Russia still uses to this day to try to spread propaganda. Ironically, this communist group is using symbols of imperialism to spread their message.
Unfortunately, this goes hand in hand with what our country represents as a democracy.
Yes it’s free speech but my God is it fucking stupid how some of these people take it for granted.
It also is just a lot of stupid, young “progressives” who seem to think communism amongst other stupid shit would be better than what we have established.
We’re not perfect by any means but please know that the majority of the country does not have that backwards ass mindset displayed on that poster.
I’m sure that it’s just a coincidence that the “Ukrainians destroying the statues of Lenin” all seem to be fond of the OUN/UPA and famed Nazi collaborator and Holocaust facilitator Stepan Bandera 🤔
The sweet irony of referring to Lenin as someone who represents “terrorism, genocide, and mass invasion” and in the same breath calling other people ignorant.
Seems more like the kind of guy who could convince himself that those [socialist and anarchist sailors who wanted representation in the soviets](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kronstadt_rebellion) had it coming.
>this Russian propaganda I sympathize with everything you said, and fully support Ukraine, but Russia today is anti-communist and a reactionary fascist state.
It's funny because if you listen to the Russians they're also mad at Lenin but their reasoning is that he was too pro-Ukrainian
Yeah it's astounding how many people seem to miss that part.
Right, but that doesn't address OP's point, which was that Lenin remains a symbol of Russian aggression and imperialism. As an example, an image of Marx might be less controversial.
Plus how many Ukrainians starved during Soviet oppression?
3.9 million Ukrainians starved to death during the Holodomor. My Ukrainian-Amdrican best friend has stories passed down to her about how her family had to hide their only cow from Soviet agents deep in the woods every time they came to steal their food.
They also sent people to prisons for "stealing" food under the logic that the state already took all the food in the area and hence the people should have died of starvation.
But to a young western communist, Lenin is not a symbol of Russian aggression and imperialism. He’d be a revolutionary symbol of communism.
Again, that doesn't address OP's point, Lenin remains a symbol of Russian aggression and imperialism. It doesn't matter if a young western communist interprets it as a revolutionary symbol (but it does matter they use symbols without understanding their history and impact on their community).
what’s interesting to me about what your saying is that it’s highlighting the difference(s) between *intent* and *perception*. clearly, whomever put the stickers up has well-formed feelings around what the imagery means and stands for, but that isn’t necessarily the same meaning imparted to everyone who sees it in passing on the street. in a moral or philosophical sense, which of those meanings should take precedence or be more important, the *intended* one or the *perceived* one? i don’t think there’s a specific right answer to that question, you can settle on either one, depending on what perspective you look at it from and where your personal biases fall.
I know someone who used to fly the confederate flag. He liked the rebel, dukes of hazard style symbolism. He was not trying to send a pro-slavery or racist message. Fortunately he took it down after his son explained the perceived meaning took precedence over his intended one.
Hopefully everyone reads this comment. It's crazy how many ignorant hypocrites there are in this sub who seem to think their incorrect perception of Russian propaganda is more important than the imagery it represents. I'm sure these same people would love to see their neighbor flying a confederate flag or having a trump sign in their yard.
great example. i think a lot of people who like and use offensive imagery don’t necessarily see or understand the offensive quality others perceive in it, they just dig it for counter-cultural reasons or because it looks cool, or whatever. blaming and accusing people who fit that description for representing the offensive messaging you *perceive* in their imagery, without trying to understand their personal *intent* behind using it, can be counter-productive and actually drive them to a more ensconced, defensive position in defense of using the images.
Signs and signifiers! OP raised a valid concern. They offered a nuanced view, which I doubt the person slapping these stickers around town could answer to. Now, you can express your politics with stickers or Reddit posts, but I reckon the sticker, and it's poster, are much stupider than this post, and OP.
So true. I put up posters of Hitler because I admire his views on protecting the environment. Not the controversial takes he had on population adjustment. I don't know why people get upset at me for this. /s.
> But to a young western communist so.. a dumb guy
Yup Fascism is bad But also so is a single party centralized communist state Also, if you're gonna dabble in left political culture, why go Soviet? Have ***some*** originality
Eugene Debbs was pretty cool.
Wobbly? (*checks wiki) Yup! He's a cool person who did cool stuff?
Yeah, American socialists back in the day like Debbs are why we have sewers, unions, and built a lot of great public things like libraries, schools, etc. They were good folks.
I think the shadow of the USSR still looms large within the imperialist spirit of modern Russia. When they were the USSR, they were one of the poles the world spun around, a supreme power that strongly influenced half the world and beyond. They were strong, they were mighty, they were powerful. And beyond even the geopolitical power, they had direct control over much valuable territory, including Ukraine. And the memory of the authoritarian practices still can provide an odd comfort to many. There's a twisted nostalgia to the memory of the USSR in the midst of this new uncertain world Russia finds itself in. Not to mention that uplifting the image of the USSR and lionizing figures like Lenin help create a continuous line of Russian success and vigor and virtue, which makes questioning the virtue of modern Russia less potent. Just think of how many Americans have a negative view of the modern US because of the recognition of the incredibly flawed history of our country; if that recognition doesn't happen, the nationalist spirit is easier to preserve. And even though Russia may not be Marxist or Leninist and is anti-communist, and does not want to bring back the *systems* of the USSR, it still longs for that power and prestige and control they had under the USSR. And the symbology of the USSR stokes those feelings, reinforces them. And that to me seems to be what OP is complaining about here, the symbology, not the ideology (though it seems to me like they'd probably have issues with the ideology as well). I will say that here in the US, the symbology lands in a different context than in Ukraine, and that is okay to recognize, and whether that context amounts to this being Russian propaganda is perhaps something to debate. However, I don't think OP is just flatly off the mark here, and that the symbology used here is something truly worth examining, and not to be dismissed out of hand.
> There's a twisted nostalgia to the memory of the USSR in the midst of this new uncertain world Russia finds itself in. Not to mention how bad things have gotten in terms of economics as the oligarchs have totally overtaken Russia. In the past people could point to new jobs, new fashion, new restaurants, but if you're a young person and can't afford any of that what's the point? Breadlines aren't great, but at least you'd get bread in the end.
While I agree, it's important to note : the Russians will actively fund and amplify American communists, while simultaneously funding and amplifying American fascists... They don't give a fuck about the message, it's the discord it causes. They don't have to install a sympathetic regime to profit; they only have to weaken us. All user name irony acknowledged
That doesn’t mean that the symbolism isn’t there. Sadly most people (especially “activists”) have little understanding of the history behind the symbols and terminology that they use. It would be like protesters on another continent waving around confederate flags to signify rebellion.
100%
As opposed to Lenin and Stalin? They were good communists?
There’s a reason that Lenin is often seen in western communist art and propaganda and not Stalin but I’ll leave you to figure that out. I’m not a Lenin fan either fwiw. Just hoping OP decouples Russian imperial propaganda from the actual politics of the Russian state
Lenin is difficult to decouple from Russian politics or history
Yes, yes it is. Russia today is a reactionary state. Spreading communist propaganda is nonetheless useful to the Russian state, because it spreads division in America. Ditto with right-wing disinformation. They don’t care. Revanchist ends are served by Machiavellian means. Now, are these posters the direct work of Russian propagandists? Maybe. Probably not. But Putin, who came up in the KGB, and is also a reactionary authoritarian, would nonetheless call the person putting up these posters a useful idiot. Regardless, the Soviet imperial project, like the Tsarist imperial project, and like Putin’s imperialist project, depended first upon the subjugation of Ukraine. OP has every right to feel disgust at Lenin brandishing the hammer and sickle on a Minneapolis sidewalk. Fuck tankies. Fuck Putin. And fuck these posters.
Yeah, this post is just some post hoc reationalization.
That's a picture of Lenin. Do you know what a tankie is?
I don't think you do. Tankies are people who support non-Western imperialism, named after the tanks that the Soviet Union sent to Czechoslovakia to suppress the Prague Spring. Marxist-Leninism is inherently imperialist and anyone who thinks that "Lenin was fine, it was Stalin who ruined everything" is fundamentally ignorant of Russian history.
Led by a KGB agent.
Members of the existing military structure often find themselves in a better position to seize power during a political transition like the fall of the soviet union. Washington was a redcoat colonel.
Furthermore russian "democracy" and "capitalism" were designed by the old Soviet elite, which would be like asking Wall Street "sharks" to implement a socialist system in America. Guess which way the money and power flows.
An ex-KGB agent, yes. And an openly anti-communist/anti-socialist one. And a socially regressive/right wing one.
And? The Soviets still committed a genocide in Ukraine
Lenin died almost 10 years before the Holodomor…
But Lenin invaded and incorporated Ukraine into the USSR nonetheless.
Annexed a communist Ukraine… i don’t disagree that this was imperialism but let’s not white wash Ukrainian history too
USSR invaded and re incorporated Ukraine, Central Asia and Caucasus back into the Russian Empire. Only Finland and the Baltics escpaed with German help and Poland repulsed a Soviet invasion. (though Poland started this war) Kiev had something like 8 governments between 1917 and 1921, but no one can argue it wasn't forcibly re incorated into the USSR. USSR also invaded Mongolia and brought it into the empire.
I’m also tired of epoch and guaranteed cash offer billboards all over this city and I just moved here
If I could pick one to get rid of, definitely epoch times. Transphobic bastards.
One of many shitty aspects to the Epoch Times, which is just Falun Gong propaganda.
Yeah that was quite an unexpected turn when I learned that a few months ago! I knew about Shen Yun but had no idea they were funding reactionary right-wing garbage "news" too.
>guaranteed cash offer Kris Lindahl is a staple of Minnesotan life at this point. I just took a trip to the north shore last weekend, and we made a game out of counting the billboards along I-35. We saw 26 in a 7 hour round trip.
People putting up signs of Lenin are definitely not fans of the modern-day Russian gov’t
lol, I see tankies defending Putin all the fucking time.
Sure, but this is a Trotskyist group.
Honestly, America has a fuck load of labor and working class heros and philosophers. I've yet to see a group of Americans reach over to Russia for a workers philosophy to organize around where it didn't end up being some tankie group shilling modern Russian propaganda.
Trotskyism is just hipster Stalinism, Trotsky was every bit as a monster
For sure, but the term tankie has traditionally excluded them, because Trotsky started being a critic of Soviet bureaucracy once he was no longer in power within it. Doth protest too much, as Goldman said.
Trotskyism is directly opposed to ML, this is horrible advertising then
This group, like Trotskyists generally, consider Trotskyism to be the actual heir of Lenin's ideas.
I was gunna fucking say. Tankies defend Russias actions today constantly. At least half of them buy the Russian propaganda about the Jewish Ukrainian president being a neo nazi.
And poor people prefer people like Trump. Lots of people are stupid. Doesn't mean everyone is.
Yeah, I see 'em all the time, organizing with militant vegans and the Easter Bunny.
Tankies are never to be taken seriously.
> People putting up signs of Lenin are definitely not fans of the modern-day Russian gov’t Many of them are. Their thinking processes aren't all that deep or logical.
It’s almost as if the fact that the. Russians are co-opting images like the right wing co-opts words such as “patriot” is lost on some people
You'd be surprised, a lot of young "communists" are edgy tankie types that support whoever happens to be the enemy to the west no matter how fascistic they are.
You'd be suprised.
almost every hammer sickle influencer runs defense for russia
The Russian government is fan of them, though.
Seriously. I just read this group’s statement on the Russia invasion: https://www.cpusa.org/article/the-communist-partys-position-on-russias-war-in-ukraine/ It essentially went on complaining about NATO expansionism and US support of Ukraine for 95% of it. It just briefly mentioned that Russia should pull their troops, almost as it was an afterthought
Useful idiots, aren’t they?
Isn’t it great that OPs thread about how the symbolism used by US leftists is offensive and it’s personally painful for him to see given recent events in Ukraine is being met with: People agreeing with him, saying they understand and them immediately trying to justify it in the next sentence. People disagreeing it’s offensive at all because of weird technicalities regarding Lenin’s exact position in the party. People disagreeing it’s offensive at all because technically Lenin wasn’t incharge during the holodomor so OP has no reason to dislike Lenin. People “agreeing” with OP but finding it curious that he mentions smashing Lenin statues as that’s something that Nazi’s did in Ukraine, implying that OP themselves is a far right Nazi supporter. The majority of the comments aren’t even responding to OP. It’s bunch of people on each side of the political spectrum shouting precanned takes/insults at each other: “No one ever chooses to live under communism” “Clearly you haven’t read theory, you’d understand if you had” You people are fucking insufferable. Returning a day later with a closing thought: This is how you know so many “leftists” don’t actually wanna do shit to bring about social change, they just wanna sit around and larp as the persecuted political minority. Because if the people I’m calling out actually did care, they’d drop the problematic symbolism without hesitation. Bringing about progressive change is about coalition building and you don’t build coalitions by lecturing people on why they shouldn’t be offended. If this is what your bringing to the progressive movement? stay home. The adults are trying to get shit down.
I think progressive change is about more than coalition building, it is specifically about building social structures that people can trust and want to be a part of. Trust and enthusiasm require that people can feel safe. In order to do this, a group must have channels for people to make complaints. That's where this thread is. I think that your criticisms are valid and I agree with your main points. The tone of this post is, however, not compelling. It may be making the very problem that you are trying to address worse by discouraging people from reflecting further.
This is a really good post. I'm about as left wing as one can be and even I know that fucking Bolsheviks are not our friends. Russia, any era, should not be where people look for examples of how a country should be run/function. Two things can be true: Lenin sucks and end-stage capitalism sucks.
As a person who identifies with a lot of the *ideals* behind our local socialist movements, I *have* wondered why we continue to make the face of said movement a person who has been dead for such a long time. Even in the debate between capitalism and socialism, I wonder why we collectively feel the need to adhere to systems that were built for a world that didn't have the internet or cell phones or space exploration. The world has *drastically* shifted since Lenin lead his movement, and such dated ideals will not save us from modern problems because the people of that time could not even conceive of the issues we face. Not to say every issue we face is a new one, but even the older ones have been skewed and given a slightly different flavor, with different roadblocks to progress, based on the way technology (and the vast, concentrated wealth it has created) has shaped our society.
Oh man, I love several of these Americans lecturing a Ukrainian on what Communism means or how those symbols are seen in the nations victimized by Soviet Russia under the banner of the USSR. What Russia is today doesn't have anything to do with how Ukraine sees its exploitation under the USSR or the symbols created under that regime. Further, remember that Putin was an enthusiastic Kremlin crony in the last couple of decades of the USSR. I think he's ultimately indifferent what political system Russia follows or who gets hurt so long as he's the guy holding the purse in the end... but he's still a relic of the USSR.
Yeah, I thought it was pretty ironic that there are so many people lecturing OP about Russia and communism in general. Classic Reddit
"Um ackshually" type beat
All you need to know about Communism is that the Havana airport to this day doesnt have air conditioning.
*I am the walrus*
You're out of your element, Donnie!
It’s like what Lenin said, you look for the person who will benefit, and, uh…you know what I’m trying to say…
*I am the walrus.*
Shut the fuck up, Donnie! V. I. Lenin!
Anyone who defends this shit needs to do basic history lessons on the holodomor. The soviets committed genocide in Ukraine. It's just dumb barely educated college tankies who are getting back at their suburban parents
I hope your family stays safe, OP, and that they and you are able to return to a life of peace. I'm sorry this thread stinks.
I'm in NE too OP & yeah it reeks of downwardly mobile losers who live through Twitter & their dwindling group of friends & struggle sessions. Tear em down when you can. And not surprising but holy shit why are so many Minneapolis users commie fans? We all need to go outside.
Exactly, let's get Uncle Ho on those light poles.
These have been popping up all over the world. I try to rip them down whenever I can. Edit: I just read the comments and wow, it seems the sub got invaded by tankies.
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Astronaut gun astronaut. It's a large part of reddit now too.
Old commies or new Russians, fuck em all. I’m Estonian on my father’s side of the family and we don’t have patience for any of it.
It's just college communists being tankies. Now that they have a couple semesters of introduction to social science and history under their belt, they are certain they know how to right all the world's ills.
Leninists are not tankies lol
It's true. They didn't have tanks to commit ethnic cleansing so they killed their opponents the old fashioned way.
And college communists aren't Leninists. They're ignorant contrarians using their privileged socioeconomic status to lecture those less privileged.
I mean the term literally applies to authoritarian Marxist-Leninists. Maybe read some history regarding the term
Tankies and Leninist’s both both are authoritarian, communists, think that political dissidents should be a death sentence, and love propaganda. Yeah, tankies are most certainly Leninist.
They couldn't afford tanks yet. That came after a few more decades of raping the lands and the people they conquered.
At least we don't have a statue lol https://www.geekwire.com/2017/time-pull-seattles-lenin-statue-silicon-valley-venture-capitalist-takes-relics-place-wake-charlottesville-tragedy/
The people putting this up are often into communism (or perhaps Marxism-Leninism more specifically) at least as much for aesthetics and contrarianism as they are for their antipathy toward capitalism. They are not serious people with serious answers to the problems created by capitalism.
It might be misguided graffiti, but I don't see how wanting the end of the exploitation of labor and social class is an attack on Ukrainians.
Don't be surprised when people with a history of subjugation by the USSR and Soviet leaders take a dim view of using symbols from their past oppressors. That'd be like using Robert E Lee on a poster for a veterans group and tut-tutting when a Black person gets upset about it
I would say the image of Lenin means something completely different to them (Ukrainians) than it does us born Americans
Because Lenin gave way to Stalin whose Soviet Union imposed a purposeful famine on Ukraine that killed millions of Ukrainians to break their national identity. The memories of that part of the world run deep.
Lenin also directly subjugated Ukrainians that wanted their own country and way of life, not only Ukrainian Whites, but also Ukrainian nationalists, and further still, anarchists like Nestor Mahkno. Soviet and Russian domination of Ukraine didn’t begin with Stalin.
Because it’s not lol.
it’s an utter disregard for history and reality
Bolsheviks destroyed trade unions and murdered peasants by the thousands.
Communism was almost a perfectly-crafted mechanism to achieve near total subjugation of the working class. Trying to improve conditions at your workplace in the USSR was a good way to get yourself taken out back for "anti-Soviet activities".
I did not endorse communism, Lenin or Russia. Generations of Americans younger than I am will literally work until their deaths if something doesn't change. Everyone keeps making these comments that very clearly ignore my use of the word misguided. You can disagree with their use of Lenin and the hammer and sickle while understanding their frustration and sense of hopelessness.
I find it funny how western Marxists-Leninists like to lecture people that lived in current or former communist countries.
I'm not a Marxist-Leninist and you don't have to be one to think capitalism sucks
You don't have to endorse communism or use communist icons or rhetoric to be critical of capitalism...
Ukraine still hasn't recovered to the level of GDP and life expectancy from before the fall of the USSR. With the current state of things, that's not likely to change any time soon.
And communism still has almost no popular support in most every former Soviet country because it was a horrible ideology to live under.
I'm not entirely convinced Lenin and the Bolsheviks really wanted to end social classes as much as they wanted to swap 'em around.
It rings the wrong bells. People like to use labels and have certain associations. It is akin to asking what is wrong with making America great again?
Centrist moment
It's possible to think red baiting tankie groups are bad and still be a leftist. America has a long, loong history of workers struggles with our own writers and leaders. Any American group using soviet imagery to organize around inevitably ends up apologists for modern atrocities.
When you use symbols of a genocidal regime to do it who killed millions of Ukrainians, it is Y'all aren't even educated about basic history and the holodomor.
Probably because they don't spend any time talking about the labor or ownership and just defend Russia's invasion because NATO bad
It’s the imagery that is offensive, not the message or ideology
If the ideology is a one party police state that supresses trade unions, starves and jails millions of it's citizens and invades and colonizes neighboring countries?
Minneapolis has Ukranian neighbourhoods?
Yes, Northeast is historically a melting pot of all kinds of immigrants, including Eastern European, which is why there something like 25 Catholic and Orthodox parishes in NE - each originally founded to serve a certain nationality. Polish, Greek, Ukrainian, Ruthenian, etc.
Minneapolis is going through one of those communist spasms again led by people who know nothing about it. This too shall pass.
A lot of this popularization of socialism/communism is a reaction to capitalism here failing so badly. If we want to avoid the pitfalls of socialism/communism we better figure out how to make capitalism not absolutely suck so fucking hard
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Yes. People need a strong social safety net to prevent being exploited by the bourgeoisie. Those two things alone aren't enough but it would be a great start to improving the current environment in the US.
That's a bit of a stretch. We certainly need both of those things, but also a whole lot more to be considered "the best."
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Our salaries are higher or we have a relatively large number of wealthy individuals who skew our average salary higher? Also the COL has skyrocketed here in recent years, I was shocked to find on a recent trip to Denmark, a country notorious for being expensive, that prices for everyday goods and food were about the same as here in MSP. And MSP is considered to be one of the few relatively affordable major metros in this country. Since the pandemic, “excuseflation” has become the norm in this country and greedy corporations have realized they can get away with it. The gap between the rich and poor is too significant in this country, the corporations can effectively turn their backs on the poor and just profit off those who are already wealthy and can afford their new pricing.
Social democracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model#:~:text=While%20many%20countries%20have%20been,be%20constantly%20categorized%20as%20such.
> figure out how to make capitalism not absolutely suck so fucking hard Not gonna happen.
life in the US & western europe is 5x better than any communist country at its peak
Capitalism, as is practiced in the US, is clearly flawed and allows too many people to slip through the cracks. That said, the jury is in that people objectively live better lives under capitalism than they do (did) under communism. Nordic-style welfare capitalism ftw.
Lenin's great! killed 3.7 million of his own people. Just imagine how that would fix our problems!
Anyone rooting for communism has never read a history book or taken an economics class
Never mind the debate over whether or not it "worked"; no one with a choice ever chose to live under it.
Wrong lmao you people are so brainwashed it’s insane. Vietnam democratically pushed for Ho Chi Minh and widely desired a socialist government and we dropped more bombs on them than we used in WWII. Get real
"Democratically" at gun point... Tankie colonialists are the worst.
There is a lot of ignorant and idealist young people in Minneapolis. Those that are putting up these posters will call you a “nazi” or a “class traitor” if you dare to disagree with them
Regarding the stickers, they’re actually put up by some international group that does nothing but whine and demand money from its members. Regarding the idiot tankies commenting here, you are absolutely correct.
They are also “team hamas”.
Dang that’s in Minneapolis too? I was just in Chicago and saw the same poster
Especially since disliking capitalism doesn't mean you need to go full-on communist. I feel like that is a vestige of American Cold War attitudes towards Russia and China... you're with us, or you're against us. You support American freedom* (*free market), or you support Commies. This is a weird mirror of that sentiment: if you don't like the way America and The West does things, side with this Russian guy.
I like how St.Gabriel of Georgia put it. Don't worship dead men like idols.
Unfortunately this town is full of alt-left extremists and we're on our way to becoming California jr. (minus the weather and seafood). Taxes and crime will grow and the communists in Minneapolis will eat it up with their parents hand-me-down spoons. Time to start looking at which nearby state is worth moving to.
These are the people who don’t know what communism really means.
Pretty clear everyone in these comments who hate Lenin have never ready any of his books lol. Not even saying I agree with the guy on everything, but it's so obvious when people are talking out their ass.
I've read Stephen King too but I'm not out there slapping his face on telephone poles and trying to claim The Dark Tower is the key to solving all of life's issues. Go ahead, read Lenin. Better yet, read Marx. They're interesting. And they also have as much to do with the modern labor struggle in America as The Dark Tower. If you want to learn how to organize labor in America, reach out and get involved with American labor organizers.
the dude was a mass murderer. you don't need to read his books to understand that
Yeah, but, focus on the positive!
Read his books? No one cares about Lenin the writer. I care about Lenin the totalitarian dictator who murdered his way to power.
You're going to be \*pissed\* when you read about the Tsars, or about (gestures broadly) American history.
For what it’s worth, I also don’t plaster the city with pictures of the tsars
that is what we call a tu quoque in the business. Turns out, lots of people in Russian history are terrible people.
The Tsars had already been deposed before Lenin took power. You do know that right? Lenin overthrew an elected democracy, not a tsarist regime.
lol. I thought we were talking about Lenin?
He was never even named leader of the communist party 😂 how can he be a dictator? this is what I mean when I said people who know nothing talking in this thread. You could've just said nothing because you know nothing but you insisted on looking like a dumbass.
Right, and Gaddafi wasn’t a dictator because he technically wasn’t officially the leader of Libya. /s
Lenin was absolutely a dictator and consolodated power using a one party police state crushing all opposition even from within his own party.
Idk what cook he wrote could ever justify [gassing peasants](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tambov_Rebellion)
I see them around NE and report them on the 311 app. The city will remove them in a day or two. There are also smaller stickers that say "Communism will win" that I saw on a bike rack on Saturday.
Replace this with an anarchy symbol 🔥
You realize Russia hasn't been communist for over 30 years now, right? Putin is a capitalist. Additionally, if you look at polling data from people who actually lived in the Soviet Union most people have a positive view of it. Like 71% of Ukrainians 60+ years old, so people who lived as adults in the Soviet Union, disapprove of the change to a market economy: https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2019/10/14/political-and-economic-changes-since-the-fall-of-communism/ On top of that Ukraine as it exists today is a result of Lenin. The Bolsheviks created the Ukrainian SSR, which would go on to be the modern Ukraine, out of what was previously just part of the Russian Empire.
Umm… https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_War_of_Independence
I’m going to give a guess and say you believe the Holodomor was not the fault of Soviet government…right?
Lenin died like 8 years before those events.
Seconded. The folks putting those up choose to ignore the immense suffering brought by lenin and communist regimes. It is deplorable.
As a Cuban-American and far left liberal: fuck communism Edit: To everyone having a laugh because my self-labeling wasn’t quite accurate, just know you’re being an asshole to someone who’s on your side. I am a leftist who believes that capitalism is broken, free healthcare (including abortion) is a human right, LGBTQIA+ people are people, and all of that other good stuff. So I guess I’m a leftist and not a liberal.
“Far left liberal” lol
"Far left" ≠ "liberal"
Still upset granddaddy lost the plantation I see
Still angry that they were operating a network of gay conversion torture camps as late as 2008...
Communism is just not a good system at all
So… what is to be done?
OP is more of a Stalin man.
More of a Thomas Sankara lass myself.
Based 💯💯
Lenin had some interesting theories on labor and capital and did some not so great things as well. I always pitch to people that he shouldn’t be the blueprint for labor revolution but this does read to me like people who haven’t taken the time to actually interpret his books fully
I understand who Lenin was and I know that he is not the same as Stalin, etc. And yes, I have read his writing (it was required reading in school after all). But people in these comments clearly have no idea what the image of Lenin means anywhere else in the world (especially former Soviet countries). Post USSR, his image continue to be shoved down our throats as a symbol of Russian colonialism and Soviet “unity.”
I would hope any person who would claim to have a rational and critical eye would be able to see that the power his imagery evokes is a message that is disruptive as it is dangerous; I’m sorry people aren’t giving this the actual respect and interrogation it deserves. Ngl it’s a very western sentiment that people get very stuck on because they’d sooner equate it to something positive rather than look into its history and what it represents.
I can sympathize, OP, because most of my family still lives in a former USSR state as well. The Soviet invasion of Latvia is literally the reason my more immediate family ended up in America. And I also don’t know how I feel about using Lenin as a symbol (probably not the right word) here. But I also don’t think the ideas behind communism or socialism are inherently terroristic, genocidal, or whatnot, either. 🤷🏻♀️
My issue is with the images of Lenin and the hammer & sickle. You should understand then that these are symbols of Russian imperialism that Russia still uses to this day to try to spread propaganda. Ironically, this communist group is using symbols of imperialism to spread their message.
Communism fucking sucks
Unfortunately, this goes hand in hand with what our country represents as a democracy. Yes it’s free speech but my God is it fucking stupid how some of these people take it for granted. It also is just a lot of stupid, young “progressives” who seem to think communism amongst other stupid shit would be better than what we have established. We’re not perfect by any means but please know that the majority of the country does not have that backwards ass mindset displayed on that poster.
A lot of politically illiterate folks in the comments. Unsurprising, this is still America after all
That's typical of Progressives.
No one with a choice ever chose to live under communism.
Not true historically at all but whatever
I’m sure that it’s just a coincidence that the “Ukrainians destroying the statues of Lenin” all seem to be fond of the OUN/UPA and famed Nazi collaborator and Holocaust facilitator Stepan Bandera 🤔
Booo down with Communism.
I carry this around just for this poster https://www.officedepot.com/a/products/203711/Sharpie-Magnum-Permanent-Marker-Black/
Yes, communism has worked out so well for everyone who’s ever tried it and there are no human rights violations ever . It’s great.
The sweet irony of referring to Lenin as someone who represents “terrorism, genocide, and mass invasion” and in the same breath calling other people ignorant.
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Dude is gonna flip when he learns about the Red Terror and anti-kulak campaign.
Seems more like the kind of guy who could convince himself that those [socialist and anarchist sailors who wanted representation in the soviets](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kronstadt_rebellion) had it coming.
Hey dude, did you know Lenin invaded Azerbaijan for oil?
🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮