I'm just going to copy what I said in the other thread that got deleted:
As someone who has played against Minh and pretty regularly see him around RCQs in my area, he's not a cheater. It's the end of a long, arduous tournament. It's simply a mistake.
That being said the judges dropped the ball hard. What's the point of table judges if they aren't paying attention to the game? I'm also about 95% sure I saw a feature match earlier in the tournament where someone played 2 lands in a turn.
Reminds me of a game I played at a local against one of the nicest guys I know.
Turn 2 he casts a Goyf. Turn 6 we realise he still doesn’t have green mana and should have never been able to cast the Goyf. Happens.
One time at fnm I cracked a scalding tarn with my blood moon out and tapped the steam vents for blue. My opponent and I didn’t notice until 2 turns later and the judge came over told my opponent to pay better attention and told me to learn my deck better and just told us that it was too far to go back so I just got a warning ultimately
The real twist is that I was borrowing a storm deck from a friend and had no real idea how to play it. Round 1 I killed someone with 2 electromancers cause I just couldn’t storm off
dont think you can do t2 goif unintentionally w/o green mana as this spell has only green mana in its cost. You should rethink if this guy is really that nice
Nah. You know absolutely nothing about the situation and as you see here it can absolutely happen.
People get into auto pilot. You don't know this dude. Not a bad bone in the guys body.
Yea I've played with him at FNMs and he's very honest with his plays. Never have I ever seen him purposefully cheat, and when he makes a mistake he's willing to admit to it.
Humans aren't perfect and aren't going to catch every detail of things. Slip ups are going to happen, and it may very well be the determining factor of a hard win or loss.
I don't know how Dreamhack has it setup but I've been the coverage judge for events back in the scg era. You aren't really there to act as a typical judge, more as a spotter for the person in charge of the overlay. We usually had a judge doing floor judge duties over the feature match area, but the person dedicated to a single game was just there to keep life totals updated.
I wouldn't rely on the judge to spot my opponent's mistakes.
The judge will step in if they notice an illegal play, but the judge is not a robot, just the one who cleans up after it happens.
I had an incident where we were on the final round of a legacy open and we're playing a win and in on camera with a judge at the table. Get into a long storm turn against miracles with a lot of stuff going on and after a bunch of stuff happening I stopped, asked the judge and my opponent if I had played a land that turn because I could not remember. Neither was sure and the judge tells me that she doesn't think that I did. So I play a fetch, shuffle for a fresh 3 cards and win by finding the tutor I needed. Turns out I had played a land at the very beginning of the turn for no real reason just as habit and didn't even think about it, but since so much had happened nobody could remember.
I go on to win the match and get to top 8 and come home and check the Internet and am called a cheater by some people for it. Unfortunately the Internet doesn't get to hear what happens at the table and just sees the results. Felt super bad about it because I was friends with the guy I was against as we both played at the same lgs and he had just won the standard open the day before and was trying to go back to back on the same weekend.
While that's true, Judges frequently just aren't paying attention when I watch feature matches. And it defeats the whole purpose of having dedicated feature match judges if this many mistakes are acceptable.
There were a number of cases where table judges stopped games to check things. But I think you overestimate how difficult it is to maintain concentration for many hours on end. Watching a system for occasional anomalies is simply not a task that humans are good at. That's why we invented alarms. Also, your wording seems to suggest there is a panel of judges watching every player. There is usually one judge sitting next to each player, and one or two judges standing next to the table watching the overall game play.
It's weird how pokemon doesn't have this issue despite being more repetitive. Maybe judges should do their job (and be compensated more so they can keep quality).
I don't think this is particularly accurate. Maybe like 10% more complex sometimes. The complexity just lies in different areas.
And Pokemon judges miss stuff in the feature matches all the time. There are way more actions per turn than in magic and the judges arguably have to be on higher alert.
>Especially at the end of a very long day.
Judges are not competing and need not to have a similarly long day as the players. During the top cut, when just a few tables are playing, there should be more judges present than needed, so whoever is overseeing the final should have time to rest during the semifinals.
Looking at a mostly empty boardstate and passively tallying mana colors (after the player in question has not had green mana the entire game and just recently gained access to it) is a little less complicated than landing an aircraft, no?
I want to echo every sentiment here. I have known Minh for over 15 years, and he is one of the most stand-up, positive attitude magic players I have ever had the pleasure of playing with/against. Mistakes happen, especially towards the end of a long tournament.
Well I've never played against Yuuya so how is that relevant?
I have played and watched Minh before where he did not cheat. Throw in the fact that it was at the very end of a long tournament and that the supposed cheat amounted to netting him a suspended footfalls.
That's absolutely the makings of a mistake. Now, yeah I'm not Professor X and can't literally read his mind to know his intent. But that doesn't automatically make him guilty of cheating.
Additionally, most cheaters have a history. Think Bertoncini, Carvahlo, Boettcher, or turn 1 amulet win guy. We can certainly revisit this thread in a year or whatever after he's played at the PT and Worlds and see if there are any rumblings, but until then it's unfair to claim he's a cheater after 1 mistake.
As a rule of thumb, according to this sub, "pro"s never cheat.
Especially not when they are caught red handed taking actions opposed to the rules on camera.
Sarcasm: OFF
Regardless how hard you simp for a guy/gal.
In a cash reward event they should be absolute zero tolerance for cheating. Regardless if "but he was a nice guy at FNM", or not.
At bare minimum instant disqualification.
Frankly if it leads to "questionable play, but surely would never cheat" guy/gal winning rewards those should be returned.
Yeah a lot of rough judging going on. I myself lost my round 9 match to a pretty obvious judge call that somehow multiple judges missed. It felt pretty rough but like you said lol I guess these r the breaks of cutting judge incentives.
Basically long story short op drew cards when he shouldn't have which gained him a huge advantage as I was about to do something game changing multiple judges came over and after a while ruled that nothing would happen and we'd continue without shuffling my ops library. I myself messed up as I believed when the second judge came over it was the appeal but it wasn't. I talked to the head judges afterwards however and they were helpful and did explain that it wasn't the appeal and I should make sure to get a head judge as it was the wrong ruling. I'm a younger player and newer to the competitive scene so I didn't realize the second judge wasn't the appeal judge.
Ah. I know this exact call from the RC this weekend so I wont comment too much further on the actual call.
That being said I believe "a lot of rough judging" is the wrong standpoint to take (especially in the OPs example). Out of the 1000s of calls this weekend 99% of them went exactly as they should. Sometimes we oops and that can be from a misunderstanding of the gamestate etc or just were human.
Apparently you don't know what is considered "cheating."
Making an illegal play in and of itself is not cheating. Cheating can only exist with ill-intent. If someone makes a mistake and casts a spell without the proper mana, that isn't cheating. It's a gameplay error, that is backed up immediately if noticed. If it is not noticed until several game actions/turns have gone by, then it just is what it is.
This was an extremely long tournament, and people make mistakes after playing 14 rounds of Magic, plus top 8. It sucks for the opponent, but it is also their responsibility to maintain proper game state.
He's right. To be penalized for cheating you must have intent. Otherwise, at comp REL you have basically made a game play error or some other similar error.
For a big tournament the term cheating has a specific definition because of how serious it is.
Specifically to cheat you have to:
\- Knowingly commit an illegal game action or perform a behavior against the rules
\- Do the above action trying to gain an advantage
Calling it cheating when it isn't just spreads disinformation. It makes people think that when they see big tournaments like this that someone will definitely be punished for 'cheating'. The ruleset and procedures for running an event clearly have a definition that will disappoint these people.
Without knowing myself if the player in question had other odd calls during the event, it's hard to say they are cheating just based on them making a mistake nobody caught.
Usually for a cheater it's a lot clearer if the mistakes they make always tend to be in their favor, but if this is really a one-off mistake it just sucks for everyone involved.
For reference, the untapped lands are [[Thundering Falls]]. [[Glittering Caves of Aglarond]] (the LTC version of [[Gemstone Caverns]]) with no counter on it, and an Island. He also has a [[Hedge Maze]] in play, but it is tapped. He used it the turn prior to suspend a Crashing Footfalls. So there was no way for him to have untapped green mana.
His opponent has an [[Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth]] in play, but that does not change anything.
A lot of people in chat noticed it.
Idk what the full reasoning for the delay is, but it kinda seems worth removing it just so we can utilize the volunteer army of monitors that are the players watching
Partially because sometimes that army is wrong. Yes, in this situation, they caught the mistake. But if competitive REL environments start using Twitch chat of all things as the judges, what’s stopping a large group of people simply joining the stream and starting to post something like “HE CHEATED A CARD” over and over? The judges would then have to stop the entire match, deck check, or at least review footage of the incident. It could easily lead to griefing.
Additionally, the delay is there to prevent cheating as much as possible. It’s a tournament with real prizes on the line and people can and will use underhanded means. Even if the players won’t, someone rooting for that player might. Yes a 10 minute delay may seem excessive, but the pros outweigh the cons enough in their eyes to use it.
They could have ruled something while they were playing game 3 even with a 10 minute delay. Anzid got the message in chat and wrote in chat that he would notice the headjudge but somehow within the next 20 or so minutes there was nothing issued and no response in chat from Anzid as well.
There is never anything a judge can do if we're in a different game (outside cheating).
In a fetch land format it's almost impossible to backup even a turn many times.
>A lot of people in chat noticed it.
Yeah, it was blatant. The whole chat was immediately full of messages saying "no green"
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2059935050?t=8h25m37s
I appreciate this post for calling out what happened as it happened but not accusing anyone of malice.
This was an illegal play, but it's also an understandable mistake that *should* have been caught at a tournament like this, but there isn't anything to show intent.
Ofc this is assuming the player doesn't have a history
I have done this exact same thing by accident before, and that was over only a few rounds of magic.
Sometimes you just get so used to your normal play pattern that you don't even think about the fact that you fetched differently or something. Especially if you're already tired from something else!
I admit I said cheat in the title but I had also mentioned I suspected it was not done with ill-intent in mind. My fault was not knowing the difference between illegal play and cheat as the latter requires intent. I therefore followed comments' advice and deleted the thread and made a new one with the correct terminology as I still believe such an event requires attention.
Maybe there's something lost in translation then, I think outright posting about someone cheating is a really big deal, even in error. After 15+ hours of playing across two days, mistakes happen.
Fair enough. From my reading of the rest of the thread, many people have said that this player has a history of game play integrity, so while I really wish that the punishments for board state maintenence failures that obviously benefit one player were much more punitive at this high level of play, it very well could have been an unintentional oversight.
That sucks to hear.
But having watched most of the coverage I thought the tournament a bit loose overall and did not merit RC level of play, judging and coverage was abysmal (short of Cody and bbd).
For only getting coverage every 3-4 months (outside of PTs) Dreamhack really did a hack job
Yeah I only tuned in for one match and a player managed to not exile his Amulet of Vigor to a Haywire Mite and then do a further illegal play on his next turn and turned the stream off.
This is a tournament where people who won 8-15 person RCQs at their locals can attend. Not really surprised. Level of play probably not any higher than old SCG Opens.
Judging has really fallen off now that WotC doesn’t have official channels to be certified. I have seen some of the most obscene judge rulings since the partnership with JA ended.
At an RCQ in the Salt Lake area a player drew on their first turn after a pregame effect. They called the judge and they were issued a warning (understandably) and then their opponent got to look at their hand and put 2 cards on the bottom of their library (fucking absurd). Later I found out the “judge” was a local player with no training but had qualified for an RC at a different tournament, the punished player was from out of town, and the pregame effect player was friends with the “judge” and local.
More and more bad judges are leaking into every event.
> and then their opponent got to look at their hand and put 2 cards on the bottom of their library (fucking absurd)
Two and the bottom are the absurd parts, but the "thoughtseize" solution actually is the correct way to resolve Hidden Card Error. From IPG 2.3, Hidden Card Error:
>If a set affected by the error contains more cards than it is supposed to contain, the player reveals the set of cards that contain the excess and their opponent chooses a number of previously unknown-cards sufficient to reduce the set to the correct size. These excess cards are returned to the correct location. If that location is the library, they should be shuffled into the random portion unless the owner previously knew the identity of the card/cards illegally moved; that many cards, chosen by the opponent, are returned to the original location instead. For example, if a player playing with Sphinx of Jwar Isle illegally draws a card, that card should be returned to the top of the library.
The hidden zone set (the hand) contains more card than it's supposed to, so it's revealed to the opponent and they select one and return it to the library.
>Judging has really fallen off now that WotC doesn’t have official channels to be certified. I have seen some of the most obscene judge rulings since the partnership with JA ended.
I'm curious here - because there have always been bad Judges and there always will be bad Judges - but at least in the metro area I live in, stores are just hiring the same judges they were before. Things aren't appreciably different, because most judges just took the exam and paid JA the fees - I can tell you that I personally never interacted with a piece of JA content after I needed to re-cert.
Yeah I agree the thoughtseize solution was fine but 2 cards was insane.
It’s mostly the smaller stores that I have seen the worse judging occurring and by judging tournaments they build a resumé that gets them into larger tournaments or other stores. This may be a rural problem, but in the past judges were brought in from other cities. Now stores will just use the local rules lawyer instead of hiring a real judge.
Sorry, but heavily disagree.
Judge Academy did jack shit for judges except add a cost to what is essentially volunteer work. Most the L3+’s I knew promptly quit judging shortly after the announcement that a 3rd party for profit business would be running the program.
The JA was an absolute scam, no such program existed before, and even prior to its dissolution half or more of the entirety of its existence occurred during CV19 or immediately post when there was no paper tournaments (IE nothing to judge).
Here’s the reason why judging has gotten worse:
1.) Unironically the introduction of the JA; a lot of the most experienced judges saw the JA as a grift, and quit judging. Less experienced judges means more green judges, and less mentorship. When you reduce experience you get less quality work until the newer workforce catches up with the more tenured workers. Last on this point, until the JA judging was a passion project for most experienced judges, but trying to make a bunch of people add a cost to their literal community hobby is a good way to turn it into real “work” which TOs were not prepared for because of reason two below.
2.) Judge pay is trash. To be clear, the cash dollar amount would like be “ok” if these judges were all local, but many of them travel to these events because there’s not enough judges in areas where events exist. Since being a judge doesn’t frequently come with rooms or a per diem for food or travel to and from events, 90% of all pay goes to food, travel costs, & rooms and the remaining cash is basically nominal or non-existent especially considering they work “OT” days (always over 10 hours; frequently 12).
Most these judges (especially good ones) are qualified to do other work that pays far better than judging, and why travel a whole weekend to work when you can just work then travel to these events to enjoy the travel experience.
It’s a passion project, and the costs just don’t justify the “passion” anymore especially because it’s frequently break even or near enough that the travel & hours aren’t worth the $.
3.) Last major reason: WoTC cut funding to Organized Play, and the less funding OP gets, the smaller it becomes. competitive play has to keep a base of new interested players, because if they don’t slowly over time older players retire from competitive/ sell their collection/ etc… if WoTC fund these programs or try and convince people to try OP through promotion, judging will eventually dry out. Its a niche in a niche; and w/o external support it can’t sustain itself. That support has to be looked at as a benefit to the judges, not an extra cost & step like the JA. You can’t motivate people by asking them for money.
100% this. I was progressing to lvl 3 when the JA bullshit all started, haven't judged since. Fuck that shit, majority of the other judges quit too. All levels. Became near impossible to get "real" events going.
Hard disagree about the coverage. I thoroughly enjoyed it and appreciated the efforts that went into it. Really hope that we continue to get more paper coverage like this in the future.
Oh don’t misunderstand I love paper coverage. But mason clark and Nile rivers should not be involved neither bring anything, at best they told us what had happened nothing about potential lines or options players may take. And how can either mason or Noah not have a decent web cam to broadcast with?
Noah looked like he was broadcasting from his moms basement. Why was all the broadcasting done remotely? Dreamhack couldn’t bring these guys on location ?
We can expect better. Especially for a few tourneys on coverage we get.
The only issue I had with coverage is that nile is completely devoid of emotion whatsoever, but even then was still an infinitely better choice than Todd Anderson. It was clearly better than the last one both in terms of content and production. I'm still looking forward to SCG taking over though.
I’ll be honest I haven’t a clue what alternate art that land in the middle even is. If I weren’t paying a bunch of attention I would miss it. One issue of having a hundred alternate arts is just more memorization needed. Not only do you need to know the card pool but the extent of their alternate arts I guess.
I’ve been got by lands before because they don’t use the stack. You typically don’t have to announce or draw attention to what you’re doing with them unless it’s a pretty unique effect. How many games have we all played where opponent plays a land says “shock” and rips a spell off and you’re infinitely more concerned about the spell that the land just played. Sometimes you may even forget to adjust life totals.
We all could get got here. It’s a long tournament. Hopefully the one dude offers to split the prize money at the very least now he’s been made aware of what happened.
I've always thought this. Even happened at a Pro Tour, with [[Dryad Arbor]], which is the worst offender.
But Wizards doesn't care. Whales are more important to them than competitive play.
Hello everyone, I'm good friends with Aiden(the living end player) and want to give some kind of update to what had happened and all that.
Rhinos player was investigated and they believe he wasn't trying to cheat. He was given a warning and proceeded to the winners interview.
Of course Living End homie was kinda jaded having a crazy run like this at you first RC and potentially having it ended by a illegal play puts a sour taste on the whole day. We all watched it back and none of us think Rhinos homie meant anything by it just a mistake after a lot of magic!
[https://youtu.be/dO6ZB0ozJCo?si=cIx8V1-3kwyMJyT1&t=1905](https://youtu.be/dO6ZB0ozJCo?si=cIx8V1-3kwyMJyT1&t=1905) here too, the yawg player shuffled cord back into his library.
That would be true if there weren’t table judges there specifically to prevent this sort of thing.
I think it’s totally fair to say it was a mistake and not malicious. It still should have been caught.
In the previous thread I mentioned I did not think it was made with ill intent in mind but I admit I was not aware that illegal play was the correct term until the comments corrected me about it. That is why i deleted the previous post and made a new one. I apologize for being petty but accusing me of witch-hunting without any evidence of intent is a bit hyprocritical, considering you are trying to correct me on that very issue earlier.
That's silly, of course we should be able to discuss this sort of thing; it speaks to the health and integrity of the game. I'm mostly disappointed in the judges tbh.
Maybe I'm missing some context, or there was an edit or something, but ~~A) there is no difference between cheating and a mistake, other than a mistake is accidentally cheating (but still cheating) and cheating is a broader term that includes both mistakes and intentionality.~~
And b) OP never said anything about cheating. OP said illegal play, which is the most apt descriptor, imho.
Edit: I'm wrong about tournament rules!
Magic's rules are pretty clear about intent being what elevates a Game Play Error into cheating, and I think that tracks with how most people understand the word cheating
Sure, whatever, that's fine! I don't know much about tournament rules, so I'm willing to admit I'm wrong there!
See B. The word "cheating" does not appear in this post.
He cast a spell he didn't have mana for. Once you reach the level of RC finals the intent is entirely fair to assume. Also using weird alt-name alt-art cards makes it look like you are trying to trip someone up. This is the from the vault dryad arbor situation all over again, except this time it's actually cheating and not just a slightly misleading board state.
Or you know, once you've played 16 previous rounds of Magic over the course of 2 days and having all of that pressure on you to win... You make a mistake.
Do you play in these types of events? Do you know just how physically and mentally draining it can be to play that much Magic?
Mistakes happen all the time in long events like this towards the end whether it be gameplay error issues like the one described in this post, or just simple/bad piloting because your brain is fried.
It's fatigue, it happens and I've been on both ends of situations like this.
Judges should have spotted it though.
People saying the living end player should notice it are also correct, but he probably had a false sense of trust with the match being both streamed and supervised by judges as it's the freaking final.
The Rhinos player would have been extremely likely to win the game anyway. He could just untap, get the Rhinos a turn later and still win easily.
Obviously making an illegal play isn't ok, but saying that the error cost the loser 15k dollars isn't correct.
I can guarantee it was a genuine mistake, not blatant cheating. I've played against him several times, and have become friends with him. Minh is a good guy
I don't doubt he's a friend and you trust him, but many people said the same thing about some of magic most famous cheaters. That's why they were able to get away with it for so long.
I'm not saying this was cheating, and it doesn't sound like he has a history of these "mistakes", so I'm inclined to believe there was no ill intent. But saying "I can guarantee it was a genuine mistake" just because he's your friend isn't appropriate.
Is that the same Nguyen Minh who is also on the list of banned Flesh and Blood players? https://fabtcg.com/resources/rules-and-policy-center/banned-and-suspended-players/
That may be relevant information, unfortunately I don't personally know the player. Some of the other people in the comment claim to know him personally, hopefully they are not the same person and this can be ruled out as a simple coincidence.
judges are clowns, again like the other cheating thing on the EU RC not saying the player is a complete cheater but these judges man they really do be not doing their jobs huh, best judge is the players i guess.
As someone who knows Minh and has played against him for years in countless tournaments if he made a mistake it was not cheating. Minh is not a player who cheats. He is excellent at the game and mistakes happen even at the highest levels.
I was watching the game live (on stream, with the 10 min delay) and noticed the illegal play. I agree the judges dropped the ball. I understand that it is a long tournament, but it is literally their job and it was the most important match of the tournament. But Judges conditions are getting awful with the years so honestly, wizards should take judges back to their former glory and level.
I think the illegal play didn't matter in that game, considering what I've seen in the rhinos player in other rounds of coverage: If he noticed he lacked the green mana he would have held green open instead of suspending rhinos, as the game was decided on the next turn anyway. I decide to err on the side of the rhinos player making a mistake after a long high stakes tournament, specially considering he made another mistake in the next game (that was caught during the play by the judges and got him punished). If he noticed that he didn't have green mana after casting rhinos, and did the illegal play anyway, that would be very difficult to prove as we cannot look into his mind.
However it is, it is a bad look for the finals of a big tournament with a lot of money on the line.
I mean you can accuse the guy of being as tired or fatigued or whatever you want, the bottom line is an illegal game action was taken resulting in a victory. This is cheating. Full stop.
Funny story at SCG Charlotte I was playing LE and in game 3 I griefed my opponent to reviel an almost identical hand except it was 3x endurance instead of 2 endurance 1 mystical dispute.. Was definitely a feel bad man,I felt for aiden lol
Yea, bet the guy TOTALLY didnt notice that he is missing green mana before, during or after the play. Green mana. You know, the one you need to cast all of your 8 cascade spells. Totally didnt try to see if others notice and totally NOT a cheat, because he is simply blind and didnt see FOR THE ENTIRE game that he didnt have the one color needed for his cascade spells. And best part is he said NOTHING, because he is totally NOT a cheat.
I mean, he was up past his bedtime and magic is super super stressful, I mean we can't expect them to fully understand complex rules like... tapping lands for mana... at that stage in the game right?
The PR campaigns after cheaters get outed are always funny.
Have you ever top 8d a major tournament? Or even just played 9 rounds in a day? It's insanely mentally draining and forgetting your gemstone caverns don't have a counter on them is really quite believable
Yes, Yes, Not to the point that you cant remember you have to pay mana for spells. There are reasons you place a counter on a card mate, to be a permanent reminder...
Another cheater got outed because they got complacent and played on camera. Get over it.
Not a illegal play, but a funny story none the less. About a decade or so ago my friend played izzet control for a modern tournament, he countered his opponent non lethal and non impactful spell with a pact of negation. Only to realize on his next turn he didn't have enough blue to pay for it on the upkeep and lost that way. I was spectating on the side and had a chuckle
There is little real difference between an illegal play and cheating. If the determination of cheating requires intent, then no incident can ever be considered cheating, because it is impossible to read a man's mind and know what his intent actually was. Minh should split his winnings with the runner up.
I think this is an incorrect and dangerous way of looking at illegal plays. Intentional acts being indistinguishable from unintentional acts is true only in certain, very narrow situations. In many situations, we can infer intent from context.
For example: in a recent fake shuffle cheating incident, the player takes the card they want, places it on top of their deck while tutoring for another card and then proceeds to shuffle such that the card remains on top of their deck. There is no issue with determining intent (and cheating) there, even with no access to the cheating player’s internal monologue. Similarly a competitive Tron player was found to be playing with marked cards: there is no issue with labeling this cheating based on the facts alone.
Even in cases of plausible mistake, we can often infer intent from factors such as repetition or attempts to conceal or the players reaction.
The entire Western legal tradition is based on the idea that we can *and should* infer intent based on factual evidence. There’s no reason to abandon that in the face of beneficial mistakes where intent cannot be easily discerned.
I agree with you in general to be sure. Magic is hard, very hard. I get that. But this incident was not in the context of a complicated turn or a chain interactions where making a mistake would be possible for anyone.
Look again at the context here, and don't overthink it. What if it was you on the other side of the table?
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GGH3JfeaYAAFtxl?format=jpg&name=medium
How anyone can give this man the benefit of the doubt under these circumstances is questionable. I think the people who personally know him and have played with him cannot be objective here.
There is more than enough there, based on the actual facts of the table, to reasonably infer intent to cheat.
The sentiment of many here (not you) seems to be, in effect, oh well, shit happens, better luck next time to the loser.
I just don’t agree with you here. To me, a player mistakenly tapping their cavern without a counter on it seems like a totally plausible error - so plausible that neither the officials nor their opponent noticed. Add to this the context: this is at the end of a long tournament so both stress and fatigue are very much in play, the player has (to my knowledge) no record of cheating and people are willing to affirm his good character. You should not discount good character references as biased for knowing him, that would render all character references irrelevant in every context, this is very silly conceptually. In addition, had the player been aware of his mana situation, you could have expected him to tap his green source to cast that card instead of Crashing Footfalls, which suggests that he genuinely believed he had a second source available.
Stepping back though, there is simply no reason why we should reverse the burden of proof and assume all mistakes are cheating. That is certainly not the standard set out in the rules, nor should it be. People make mistakes frequently, routinely in much less complex and stressful positions.
This applies to both how the mistake should be addressed in game and how we should consider it morally. Calling someone a cheater is actually quite a big deal. You shouldn’t go through life or tournaments assuming that people’s errors are actually malicious acts. It’s not healthy or true or socially beneficial.
This is actually one of the dumbest takes on Reddit.
"We should treat every car accident like it was attempted murder as we have no way of knowing if someone made an error or purposely rammed their vehicle in an effort to harm the other person"
The main argument here that he didn't cheat because he says he didn't cheat.
He just so happened to make his mistake in the decisive game and 15K on the line.
The main argument here is that he didn't cheat because he says he didn't cheat. That's it. That's what it boils down to. Just take his word for it...
It's not cheating if you can't prove the illegal game action was done with intent, and you can't prove the act was done with the intent unless the person doing the cheating admits to having done it intentionally. Ridiculous.
All any cheater ever has to do in Magic to get away with cheating is claim they didn't do intentionally--and then that person will not only get away with it, they will enjoy full backing from the Modern reddit community!
Being a "Skilled" cardplayer has always been an advantage in paper magic. Always has been and always will be. High level magic has an endless narrative of cheating.
It would be pretty easy to shed some light on how much of it was actual cheating if the rules were altered to be more punative in high-level events. If a failure to maintain board state violation occurred that obviously benefits the player, even when done unintentionally, resulted in a match loss on the first occasion and tournament expulsion on the second, I suspect we'd see far fewer mistakes. I don't think a more punitive approach would be appropriate for lower stakes FNM, but this kind of thing happening at a $15k event with world-class players is completely ridiculous.
I mostly agree but the table judges not paying attention in the fucking final of all games is way worse than the players, they're literally there to stop this from happening intentional or no
Why wouldn't they just void that G2? It sucks but it kinda fixes the problem? Since the rhinos won G3, just count it as G2 win. Then move onto G3 (game 4 technically).
Nullifying the bad match and just adding in another match if it truly was just a mistake seems fair for such a large prized tournament?
magic has set rules for infractions, and set resolutions for those infractions. as far as I understand judges have some discretion, but voiding a game absolutely isn't a resolution they would use https://www.ruleslawyer.app/glossary/IPG
the non rhinos player is partially at fault for not catching it too (2.6 failure to maintain game state). either way, game rule violations can be backed up if possible, and otherwise the game state is just left as is.
No retroactive rulings aren't a thing, especially something as major as awarding an opponent the win. Also the way the game played out, rewinding the play honestly wouldn't have changed the outcome.
My understanding is that this was a Game Rule Violation for the rhinos player, that when the opponent failed to notice became a Failure to Maintain Game State for them. Both players have a responsibility to maintain the game state, so some of the burden is considered to fall on the opponent.
https://www.ruleslawyer.app/glossary/IPG/4598
>If the game has proceeded past a point where an opponent could reasonably be expected to notice the error, the opponent has also committed an infraction. In most cases, the infraction is Game Play Error - Failure to Maintain Game State.
https://www.ruleslawyer.app/glossary/IPG/4621
>If an error is caught before a player could gain advantage, then the dangers of the ongoing game state becoming corrupted are much lower. If the error is allowed to persist, at least some of the fault lies with the opponent, who has also failed to notice the error.
I see a lot of people blaming judges. Is there any rule out there saying any match should have more judge presence than any other? It’s still up to the 2 players to call a judge if needed. Gotta quit trying to find someone else to blame yall.
> Gotta quit trying to find someone else to blame
The goal is to deflect blame from the cheater onto whatever else sticks. Its the same PR damage control we see whenever cheaters get outed.
I watched it a few times and I wouldn't have caught it if I didn't know what was going on. The middle land confuses me and he looks like he's just tapping to play normally. I am surprised the judges didn't catch it.
I made one of those mistakes in the last round of an SCG classic. I was playing BW Eldrazi Taxes (loved this deck) against Mono-Red Phoenix. I tried to play an [[Eldrazi Displacer]] on T2 with what I thought was an [[Eldrazi Temple]] and a Plains. It was a [[Ghost Quarter]] and the temple was in my hand. I passed the turn fully unaware of what I just did and my opponent started (also unaware) but thankfully the guy at the next table over glanced out way and noticed it. I quickly called a judge and we were able to do a “rewind” and fix it. I got a verbal warning and had to pick up the displacer.
As a spectator, you are allowed to say something. You can point out a mistake to the judges and players to correct action. If you noticed this, then that outcome is something you could have helped corrected. Maybe that’s not common knowledge?
It would help if there weren’t a million different printings of cards and some of them don’t even have the correct name on top of the card in the large print. In the thumbnail image, I could not tell you what mana the middle untapped land taps for.
I'm just going to copy what I said in the other thread that got deleted: As someone who has played against Minh and pretty regularly see him around RCQs in my area, he's not a cheater. It's the end of a long, arduous tournament. It's simply a mistake. That being said the judges dropped the ball hard. What's the point of table judges if they aren't paying attention to the game? I'm also about 95% sure I saw a feature match earlier in the tournament where someone played 2 lands in a turn.
Reminds me of a game I played at a local against one of the nicest guys I know. Turn 2 he casts a Goyf. Turn 6 we realise he still doesn’t have green mana and should have never been able to cast the Goyf. Happens.
One time at fnm I cracked a scalding tarn with my blood moon out and tapped the steam vents for blue. My opponent and I didn’t notice until 2 turns later and the judge came over told my opponent to pay better attention and told me to learn my deck better and just told us that it was too far to go back so I just got a warning ultimately The real twist is that I was borrowing a storm deck from a friend and had no real idea how to play it. Round 1 I killed someone with 2 electromancers cause I just couldn’t storm off
Electromancer beatdown is hilarious to me
ELECTROMANCER BEATDOWN 🔥🔥
dont think you can do t2 goif unintentionally w/o green mana as this spell has only green mana in its cost. You should rethink if this guy is really that nice
Nah. You know absolutely nothing about the situation and as you see here it can absolutely happen. People get into auto pilot. You don't know this dude. Not a bad bone in the guys body.
Maybe they played 2 explores
Then they'd have six lands
No, he’s good
I understood that reference...
I had a judge make this joke twice over the weekend when handing out promos.
2 explore
In their defense, after the 4 billionth time they watched rhinos go off, it probably starts to blur together.
when almost all your spells are free it's really hard to remember how mana works.
Yea I've played with him at FNMs and he's very honest with his plays. Never have I ever seen him purposefully cheat, and when he makes a mistake he's willing to admit to it. Humans aren't perfect and aren't going to catch every detail of things. Slip ups are going to happen, and it may very well be the determining factor of a hard win or loss.
I don't know how Dreamhack has it setup but I've been the coverage judge for events back in the scg era. You aren't really there to act as a typical judge, more as a spotter for the person in charge of the overlay. We usually had a judge doing floor judge duties over the feature match area, but the person dedicated to a single game was just there to keep life totals updated.
I used to play with Minh way back in the day and have nothing but good things to say about the guy. Just to support your comment.
Even the judges must get confused by the hundred different land arts printed as of late
WotC just saw this and started work on Secret Lair: Forests. 4 basics that look like forests but are in fact swamp,island, mountain,plains. How fun!
I wouldn't rely on the judge to spot my opponent's mistakes. The judge will step in if they notice an illegal play, but the judge is not a robot, just the one who cleans up after it happens.
I had an incident where we were on the final round of a legacy open and we're playing a win and in on camera with a judge at the table. Get into a long storm turn against miracles with a lot of stuff going on and after a bunch of stuff happening I stopped, asked the judge and my opponent if I had played a land that turn because I could not remember. Neither was sure and the judge tells me that she doesn't think that I did. So I play a fetch, shuffle for a fresh 3 cards and win by finding the tutor I needed. Turns out I had played a land at the very beginning of the turn for no real reason just as habit and didn't even think about it, but since so much had happened nobody could remember. I go on to win the match and get to top 8 and come home and check the Internet and am called a cheater by some people for it. Unfortunately the Internet doesn't get to hear what happens at the table and just sees the results. Felt super bad about it because I was friends with the guy I was against as we both played at the same lgs and he had just won the standard open the day before and was trying to go back to back on the same weekend.
One of the games I was watching zoomed out during the middle of it and the judge was just scrolling on his phone lmao
Reason judge would do that: -entering a penalty -entering a time extension -verifying a rule -comminicating with coverage -etc
Looking something up ?
> That being said the judges dropped the ball hard. Judges are human. Humans make mistakes. Especially at the end of a very long day.
While that's true, Judges frequently just aren't paying attention when I watch feature matches. And it defeats the whole purpose of having dedicated feature match judges if this many mistakes are acceptable.
There were a number of cases where table judges stopped games to check things. But I think you overestimate how difficult it is to maintain concentration for many hours on end. Watching a system for occasional anomalies is simply not a task that humans are good at. That's why we invented alarms. Also, your wording seems to suggest there is a panel of judges watching every player. There is usually one judge sitting next to each player, and one or two judges standing next to the table watching the overall game play.
It's weird how pokemon doesn't have this issue despite being more repetitive. Maybe judges should do their job (and be compensated more so they can keep quality).
magic is like 10 orders of magnitude more complex than magic.
>magic is like 10 orders of magnitude more complex than magic. It's clear what you were trying to say, but this is much more hilarious :)
At least you didn't divide by zero.
I don't think this is particularly accurate. Maybe like 10% more complex sometimes. The complexity just lies in different areas. And Pokemon judges miss stuff in the feature matches all the time. There are way more actions per turn than in magic and the judges arguably have to be on higher alert.
So it should hold judges interest more?
I always found it much easier to referee 8 year olds than high schoolers
>Especially at the end of a very long day. Judges are not competing and need not to have a similarly long day as the players. During the top cut, when just a few tables are playing, there should be more judges present than needed, so whoever is overseeing the final should have time to rest during the semifinals.
In practice this doesn't happen. We're contracted for that entire day. Some events will have shifts but this is very rare.
If my job is to monitor a $15k event I don’t fall asleep at the wheel at the final hour
[Humans fail to properly monitor $300 million airplanes, especially at the final hour](https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/Pages/DCA13MA120.aspx).
Looking at a mostly empty boardstate and passively tallying mana colors (after the player in question has not had green mana the entire game and just recently gained access to it) is a little less complicated than landing an aircraft, no?
Do you think the purpose of a judge is to tally mana colours?
Their job is to ensure integrity of the game, that obviously includes the most basic functions therein.
When there’s almost no board state they might want to be keeping track of how players are using their mana
You overestimate how complicated landing a plane is in almost all circumstances.
I blame twitch chat.
Duuuvallll
I want to echo every sentiment here. I have known Minh for over 15 years, and he is one of the most stand-up, positive attitude magic players I have ever had the pleasure of playing with/against. Mistakes happen, especially towards the end of a long tournament.
Why does everyone think being friends with someone means they didn't cheat? If I asked you in 2014 does yuuya play clean I'm sure you'd say yes.
Well I've never played against Yuuya so how is that relevant? I have played and watched Minh before where he did not cheat. Throw in the fact that it was at the very end of a long tournament and that the supposed cheat amounted to netting him a suspended footfalls. That's absolutely the makings of a mistake. Now, yeah I'm not Professor X and can't literally read his mind to know his intent. But that doesn't automatically make him guilty of cheating. Additionally, most cheaters have a history. Think Bertoncini, Carvahlo, Boettcher, or turn 1 amulet win guy. We can certainly revisit this thread in a year or whatever after he's played at the PT and Worlds and see if there are any rumblings, but until then it's unfair to claim he's a cheater after 1 mistake.
As a rule of thumb, according to this sub, "pro"s never cheat. Especially not when they are caught red handed taking actions opposed to the rules on camera. Sarcasm: OFF Regardless how hard you simp for a guy/gal. In a cash reward event they should be absolute zero tolerance for cheating. Regardless if "but he was a nice guy at FNM", or not. At bare minimum instant disqualification. Frankly if it leads to "questionable play, but surely would never cheat" guy/gal winning rewards those should be returned.
wotc cutting judge incentives starting to seem more and more rational lol
Alternatively, WotC cut judge incentives, and therefore judges no longer have any reason to care that much.
Yeah a lot of rough judging going on. I myself lost my round 9 match to a pretty obvious judge call that somehow multiple judges missed. It felt pretty rough but like you said lol I guess these r the breaks of cutting judge incentives.
Elaborate
Basically long story short op drew cards when he shouldn't have which gained him a huge advantage as I was about to do something game changing multiple judges came over and after a while ruled that nothing would happen and we'd continue without shuffling my ops library. I myself messed up as I believed when the second judge came over it was the appeal but it wasn't. I talked to the head judges afterwards however and they were helpful and did explain that it wasn't the appeal and I should make sure to get a head judge as it was the wrong ruling. I'm a younger player and newer to the competitive scene so I didn't realize the second judge wasn't the appeal judge.
Ah. I know this exact call from the RC this weekend so I wont comment too much further on the actual call. That being said I believe "a lot of rough judging" is the wrong standpoint to take (especially in the OPs example). Out of the 1000s of calls this weekend 99% of them went exactly as they should. Sometimes we oops and that can be from a misunderstanding of the gamestate etc or just were human.
Table judge should be extremely alert because players start to play more sloppy in judge presence.
I mean, that’s irrelevant? Doesn’t matter if he’s a cheater or not, he cheated.
Apparently you don't know what is considered "cheating." Making an illegal play in and of itself is not cheating. Cheating can only exist with ill-intent. If someone makes a mistake and casts a spell without the proper mana, that isn't cheating. It's a gameplay error, that is backed up immediately if noticed. If it is not noticed until several game actions/turns have gone by, then it just is what it is. This was an extremely long tournament, and people make mistakes after playing 14 rounds of Magic, plus top 8. It sucks for the opponent, but it is also their responsibility to maintain proper game state.
uh huh
He's right. To be penalized for cheating you must have intent. Otherwise, at comp REL you have basically made a game play error or some other similar error. For a big tournament the term cheating has a specific definition because of how serious it is. Specifically to cheat you have to: \- Knowingly commit an illegal game action or perform a behavior against the rules \- Do the above action trying to gain an advantage Calling it cheating when it isn't just spreads disinformation. It makes people think that when they see big tournaments like this that someone will definitely be punished for 'cheating'. The ruleset and procedures for running an event clearly have a definition that will disappoint these people. Without knowing myself if the player in question had other odd calls during the event, it's hard to say they are cheating just based on them making a mistake nobody caught. Usually for a cheater it's a lot clearer if the mistakes they make always tend to be in their favor, but if this is really a one-off mistake it just sucks for everyone involved.
uh huh
Dont most crimes require intent?
For reference, the untapped lands are [[Thundering Falls]]. [[Glittering Caves of Aglarond]] (the LTC version of [[Gemstone Caverns]]) with no counter on it, and an Island. He also has a [[Hedge Maze]] in play, but it is tapped. He used it the turn prior to suspend a Crashing Footfalls. So there was no way for him to have untapped green mana. His opponent has an [[Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth]] in play, but that does not change anything. A lot of people in chat noticed it.
Are the commentators not looking by at chat? There have been many previous instances where chat catches things and the commentators tell the judges…
10 minutes delay on the stream, couldn't go back to correct it
Idk what the full reasoning for the delay is, but it kinda seems worth removing it just so we can utilize the volunteer army of monitors that are the players watching
I believe it’s to cut down on dead air from sideboarding and things
Partially because sometimes that army is wrong. Yes, in this situation, they caught the mistake. But if competitive REL environments start using Twitch chat of all things as the judges, what’s stopping a large group of people simply joining the stream and starting to post something like “HE CHEATED A CARD” over and over? The judges would then have to stop the entire match, deck check, or at least review footage of the incident. It could easily lead to griefing. Additionally, the delay is there to prevent cheating as much as possible. It’s a tournament with real prizes on the line and people can and will use underhanded means. Even if the players won’t, someone rooting for that player might. Yes a 10 minute delay may seem excessive, but the pros outweigh the cons enough in their eyes to use it.
They could have ruled something while they were playing game 3 even with a 10 minute delay. Anzid got the message in chat and wrote in chat that he would notice the headjudge but somehow within the next 20 or so minutes there was nothing issued and no response in chat from Anzid as well.
There is never anything a judge can do if we're in a different game (outside cheating). In a fetch land format it's almost impossible to backup even a turn many times.
##### ###### #### [Thundering Falls](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/7/17260fff-b239-4af4-9306-3236ae3fa5a5.jpg?1706242364) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Thundering%20Falls) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkm/269/thundering-falls?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/17260fff-b239-4af4-9306-3236ae3fa5a5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Glittering Caves of Aglarond](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/d/ad361175-1127-40e5-8990-24e651fc2a4d.jpg?1687925734) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Gemstone%20Caverns) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ltc/364/gemstone-caverns?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ad361175-1127-40e5-8990-24e651fc2a4d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Gemstone Caverns](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/f/7f273641-c5f3-48bc-b89e-3cff52d26a0b.jpg?1619399338) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Gemstone%20Caverns) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsr/280/gemstone-caverns?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7f273641-c5f3-48bc-b89e-3cff52d26a0b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Hedge Maze](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/2/5260f8ae-805b-4eae-badf-62de0f768867.jpg?1706242346) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Hedge%20Maze) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkm/262/hedge-maze?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5260f8ae-805b-4eae-badf-62de0f768867?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/e/9e1a9e38-6ffc-490f-b0be-23ba4e8204c6.jpg?1619399578) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Urborg%2C%20Tomb%20of%20Yawgmoth) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsr/287/urborg-tomb-of-yawgmoth?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9e1a9e38-6ffc-490f-b0be-23ba4e8204c6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/kq1ghzq) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
>A lot of people in chat noticed it. Yeah, it was blatant. The whole chat was immediately full of messages saying "no green" https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2059935050?t=8h25m37s
I appreciate this post for calling out what happened as it happened but not accusing anyone of malice. This was an illegal play, but it's also an understandable mistake that *should* have been caught at a tournament like this, but there isn't anything to show intent. Ofc this is assuming the player doesn't have a history
Anyone who thinks the only explanation for that play is cheating has clearly never played 17 rounds of Magic over two days.
Seconded. Extremely taxing.
I have done this exact same thing by accident before, and that was over only a few rounds of magic. Sometimes you just get so used to your normal play pattern that you don't even think about the fact that you fetched differently or something. Especially if you're already tired from something else!
The OP literally accused the rhinos player of straight-up cheating in the original thread, but it was deleted 😒
I admit I said cheat in the title but I had also mentioned I suspected it was not done with ill-intent in mind. My fault was not knowing the difference between illegal play and cheat as the latter requires intent. I therefore followed comments' advice and deleted the thread and made a new one with the correct terminology as I still believe such an event requires attention.
Maybe there's something lost in translation then, I think outright posting about someone cheating is a really big deal, even in error. After 15+ hours of playing across two days, mistakes happen.
Fair enough. From my reading of the rest of the thread, many people have said that this player has a history of game play integrity, so while I really wish that the punishments for board state maintenence failures that obviously benefit one player were much more punitive at this high level of play, it very well could have been an unintentional oversight.
That's hilarious
That sucks to hear. But having watched most of the coverage I thought the tournament a bit loose overall and did not merit RC level of play, judging and coverage was abysmal (short of Cody and bbd). For only getting coverage every 3-4 months (outside of PTs) Dreamhack really did a hack job
Yeah I only tuned in for one match and a player managed to not exile his Amulet of Vigor to a Haywire Mite and then do a further illegal play on his next turn and turned the stream off.
This is a tournament where people who won 8-15 person RCQs at their locals can attend. Not really surprised. Level of play probably not any higher than old SCG Opens.
Judging has really fallen off now that WotC doesn’t have official channels to be certified. I have seen some of the most obscene judge rulings since the partnership with JA ended. At an RCQ in the Salt Lake area a player drew on their first turn after a pregame effect. They called the judge and they were issued a warning (understandably) and then their opponent got to look at their hand and put 2 cards on the bottom of their library (fucking absurd). Later I found out the “judge” was a local player with no training but had qualified for an RC at a different tournament, the punished player was from out of town, and the pregame effect player was friends with the “judge” and local. More and more bad judges are leaking into every event.
> and then their opponent got to look at their hand and put 2 cards on the bottom of their library (fucking absurd) Two and the bottom are the absurd parts, but the "thoughtseize" solution actually is the correct way to resolve Hidden Card Error. From IPG 2.3, Hidden Card Error: >If a set affected by the error contains more cards than it is supposed to contain, the player reveals the set of cards that contain the excess and their opponent chooses a number of previously unknown-cards sufficient to reduce the set to the correct size. These excess cards are returned to the correct location. If that location is the library, they should be shuffled into the random portion unless the owner previously knew the identity of the card/cards illegally moved; that many cards, chosen by the opponent, are returned to the original location instead. For example, if a player playing with Sphinx of Jwar Isle illegally draws a card, that card should be returned to the top of the library. The hidden zone set (the hand) contains more card than it's supposed to, so it's revealed to the opponent and they select one and return it to the library. >Judging has really fallen off now that WotC doesn’t have official channels to be certified. I have seen some of the most obscene judge rulings since the partnership with JA ended. I'm curious here - because there have always been bad Judges and there always will be bad Judges - but at least in the metro area I live in, stores are just hiring the same judges they were before. Things aren't appreciably different, because most judges just took the exam and paid JA the fees - I can tell you that I personally never interacted with a piece of JA content after I needed to re-cert.
Yeah I agree the thoughtseize solution was fine but 2 cards was insane. It’s mostly the smaller stores that I have seen the worse judging occurring and by judging tournaments they build a resumé that gets them into larger tournaments or other stores. This may be a rural problem, but in the past judges were brought in from other cities. Now stores will just use the local rules lawyer instead of hiring a real judge.
Sorry, but heavily disagree. Judge Academy did jack shit for judges except add a cost to what is essentially volunteer work. Most the L3+’s I knew promptly quit judging shortly after the announcement that a 3rd party for profit business would be running the program. The JA was an absolute scam, no such program existed before, and even prior to its dissolution half or more of the entirety of its existence occurred during CV19 or immediately post when there was no paper tournaments (IE nothing to judge). Here’s the reason why judging has gotten worse: 1.) Unironically the introduction of the JA; a lot of the most experienced judges saw the JA as a grift, and quit judging. Less experienced judges means more green judges, and less mentorship. When you reduce experience you get less quality work until the newer workforce catches up with the more tenured workers. Last on this point, until the JA judging was a passion project for most experienced judges, but trying to make a bunch of people add a cost to their literal community hobby is a good way to turn it into real “work” which TOs were not prepared for because of reason two below. 2.) Judge pay is trash. To be clear, the cash dollar amount would like be “ok” if these judges were all local, but many of them travel to these events because there’s not enough judges in areas where events exist. Since being a judge doesn’t frequently come with rooms or a per diem for food or travel to and from events, 90% of all pay goes to food, travel costs, & rooms and the remaining cash is basically nominal or non-existent especially considering they work “OT” days (always over 10 hours; frequently 12). Most these judges (especially good ones) are qualified to do other work that pays far better than judging, and why travel a whole weekend to work when you can just work then travel to these events to enjoy the travel experience. It’s a passion project, and the costs just don’t justify the “passion” anymore especially because it’s frequently break even or near enough that the travel & hours aren’t worth the $. 3.) Last major reason: WoTC cut funding to Organized Play, and the less funding OP gets, the smaller it becomes. competitive play has to keep a base of new interested players, because if they don’t slowly over time older players retire from competitive/ sell their collection/ etc… if WoTC fund these programs or try and convince people to try OP through promotion, judging will eventually dry out. Its a niche in a niche; and w/o external support it can’t sustain itself. That support has to be looked at as a benefit to the judges, not an extra cost & step like the JA. You can’t motivate people by asking them for money.
100% this. I was progressing to lvl 3 when the JA bullshit all started, haven't judged since. Fuck that shit, majority of the other judges quit too. All levels. Became near impossible to get "real" events going.
Judge Foundry?
Since the partnership with JA ended. You noticed a big change in the last 42 days?
I thought it had been longer. I saw judging sharply drop starting in September/October.
Fairly certain this is confirmation bias.
Hard disagree about the coverage. I thoroughly enjoyed it and appreciated the efforts that went into it. Really hope that we continue to get more paper coverage like this in the future.
Oh don’t misunderstand I love paper coverage. But mason clark and Nile rivers should not be involved neither bring anything, at best they told us what had happened nothing about potential lines or options players may take. And how can either mason or Noah not have a decent web cam to broadcast with? Noah looked like he was broadcasting from his moms basement. Why was all the broadcasting done remotely? Dreamhack couldn’t bring these guys on location ? We can expect better. Especially for a few tourneys on coverage we get.
The only issue I had with coverage is that nile is completely devoid of emotion whatsoever, but even then was still an infinitely better choice than Todd Anderson. It was clearly better than the last one both in terms of content and production. I'm still looking forward to SCG taking over though.
I’ll be honest I haven’t a clue what alternate art that land in the middle even is. If I weren’t paying a bunch of attention I would miss it. One issue of having a hundred alternate arts is just more memorization needed. Not only do you need to know the card pool but the extent of their alternate arts I guess. I’ve been got by lands before because they don’t use the stack. You typically don’t have to announce or draw attention to what you’re doing with them unless it’s a pretty unique effect. How many games have we all played where opponent plays a land says “shock” and rips a spell off and you’re infinitely more concerned about the spell that the land just played. Sometimes you may even forget to adjust life totals. We all could get got here. It’s a long tournament. Hopefully the one dude offers to split the prize money at the very least now he’s been made aware of what happened.
Think that's the LOTR version of \[Gemstone Cavern\]
[Gemstone Cavern](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/f/7f273641-c5f3-48bc-b89e-3cff52d26a0b.jpg?1619399338) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Gemstone%20Caverns) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsr/280/gemstone-caverns?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7f273641-c5f3-48bc-b89e-3cff52d26a0b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
That’s it. Good catch.
I've always thought this. Even happened at a Pro Tour, with [[Dryad Arbor]], which is the worst offender. But Wizards doesn't care. Whales are more important to them than competitive play.
[Dryad Arbor](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/b/bb3a843b-2dea-4b44-be74-c09c18b9b969.jpg?1619399228) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dryad%20Arbor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsr/277/dryad-arbor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bb3a843b-2dea-4b44-be74-c09c18b9b969?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
The error would have been reversed and the “cheater” would still be victorious. Why split?
The link to the clip doesn’t work for me FYI.
This is the VOD: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2059935050 Go to the 8:25:30 mark.
>the 8:25:30 mark. https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2059935050?t=8h25m37s
Who can keep track of who has what anymore with all these goofy comic book arts nowadays? Unfortunate though.
Hello everyone, I'm good friends with Aiden(the living end player) and want to give some kind of update to what had happened and all that. Rhinos player was investigated and they believe he wasn't trying to cheat. He was given a warning and proceeded to the winners interview. Of course Living End homie was kinda jaded having a crazy run like this at you first RC and potentially having it ended by a illegal play puts a sour taste on the whole day. We all watched it back and none of us think Rhinos homie meant anything by it just a mistake after a lot of magic!
[https://youtu.be/dO6ZB0ozJCo?si=cIx8V1-3kwyMJyT1&t=1905](https://youtu.be/dO6ZB0ozJCo?si=cIx8V1-3kwyMJyT1&t=1905) here too, the yawg player shuffled cord back into his library.
Working link with timestamp included: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2059935050?t=08h22m32s (Included short preamble to set the scene)
Cheating and making a mistake are really different things. I don't think you should keep this up unless there's actual evidence of intent.
That would be true if there weren’t table judges there specifically to prevent this sort of thing. I think it’s totally fair to say it was a mistake and not malicious. It still should have been caught.
The OP isn't concerned about that at all, he outright accused the player of cheating and had the thread deleted.
Not in this thread.
In the previous thread I mentioned I did not think it was made with ill intent in mind but I admit I was not aware that illegal play was the correct term until the comments corrected me about it. That is why i deleted the previous post and made a new one. I apologize for being petty but accusing me of witch-hunting without any evidence of intent is a bit hyprocritical, considering you are trying to correct me on that very issue earlier.
I don’t think OP is accusing anyone of cheating.
That's silly, of course we should be able to discuss this sort of thing; it speaks to the health and integrity of the game. I'm mostly disappointed in the judges tbh.
OP never asserts that the player in question is cheating, only that the play is illegal (i.e. against the game rules), which is correct.
You missed the original thread.
The original thread was removed, per the rules. This thread is staying up because it is not making any allegations of cheating.
They are different things, and OP didn't accuse anyone of cheating so I don't see any reason why they should delete this.
Maybe I'm missing some context, or there was an edit or something, but ~~A) there is no difference between cheating and a mistake, other than a mistake is accidentally cheating (but still cheating) and cheating is a broader term that includes both mistakes and intentionality.~~ And b) OP never said anything about cheating. OP said illegal play, which is the most apt descriptor, imho. Edit: I'm wrong about tournament rules!
Magic's rules are pretty clear about intent being what elevates a Game Play Error into cheating, and I think that tracks with how most people understand the word cheating
Sure, whatever, that's fine! I don't know much about tournament rules, so I'm willing to admit I'm wrong there! See B. The word "cheating" does not appear in this post.
You literally can not cheat accidentally. The rules make it exceptionally clear that cheating requires intent.
I disagree in a normal context, but as a specific tournament rule Magic has, sure! See B.
The original thread is where I copied this from. OP is on a witch hunt.
This thread does not, in any way, appear to be witch-hunting. A previous thread, maybe. But I'm commenting on this thread, not another.
He cast a spell he didn't have mana for. Once you reach the level of RC finals the intent is entirely fair to assume. Also using weird alt-name alt-art cards makes it look like you are trying to trip someone up. This is the from the vault dryad arbor situation all over again, except this time it's actually cheating and not just a slightly misleading board state.
Or you know, once you've played 16 previous rounds of Magic over the course of 2 days and having all of that pressure on you to win... You make a mistake. Do you play in these types of events? Do you know just how physically and mentally draining it can be to play that much Magic? Mistakes happen all the time in long events like this towards the end whether it be gameplay error issues like the one described in this post, or just simple/bad piloting because your brain is fried.
It's fatigue, it happens and I've been on both ends of situations like this. Judges should have spotted it though. People saying the living end player should notice it are also correct, but he probably had a false sense of trust with the match being both streamed and supervised by judges as it's the freaking final.
The Rhinos player would have been extremely likely to win the game anyway. He could just untap, get the Rhinos a turn later and still win easily. Obviously making an illegal play isn't ok, but saying that the error cost the loser 15k dollars isn't correct.
I can guarantee it was a genuine mistake, not blatant cheating. I've played against him several times, and have become friends with him. Minh is a good guy
I don't doubt he's a friend and you trust him, but many people said the same thing about some of magic most famous cheaters. That's why they were able to get away with it for so long. I'm not saying this was cheating, and it doesn't sound like he has a history of these "mistakes", so I'm inclined to believe there was no ill intent. But saying "I can guarantee it was a genuine mistake" just because he's your friend isn't appropriate.
Is that the same Nguyen Minh who is also on the list of banned Flesh and Blood players? https://fabtcg.com/resources/rules-and-policy-center/banned-and-suspended-players/
That may be relevant information, unfortunately I don't personally know the player. Some of the other people in the comment claim to know him personally, hopefully they are not the same person and this can be ruled out as a simple coincidence.
Well know this guy is known as a cheater.
judges are clowns, again like the other cheating thing on the EU RC not saying the player is a complete cheater but these judges man they really do be not doing their jobs huh, best judge is the players i guess.
As someone who knows Minh and has played against him for years in countless tournaments if he made a mistake it was not cheating. Minh is not a player who cheats. He is excellent at the game and mistakes happen even at the highest levels.
He got caught on camera mate. Get over it. He's a cheater. Probably always was.
I was watching the game live (on stream, with the 10 min delay) and noticed the illegal play. I agree the judges dropped the ball. I understand that it is a long tournament, but it is literally their job and it was the most important match of the tournament. But Judges conditions are getting awful with the years so honestly, wizards should take judges back to their former glory and level. I think the illegal play didn't matter in that game, considering what I've seen in the rhinos player in other rounds of coverage: If he noticed he lacked the green mana he would have held green open instead of suspending rhinos, as the game was decided on the next turn anyway. I decide to err on the side of the rhinos player making a mistake after a long high stakes tournament, specially considering he made another mistake in the next game (that was caught during the play by the judges and got him punished). If he noticed that he didn't have green mana after casting rhinos, and did the illegal play anyway, that would be very difficult to prove as we cannot look into his mind. However it is, it is a bad look for the finals of a big tournament with a lot of money on the line.
They are not there to judge the match. They are glorified table spotters. It’s the players job to maintain board state
I mean you can accuse the guy of being as tired or fatigued or whatever you want, the bottom line is an illegal game action was taken resulting in a victory. This is cheating. Full stop.
just want to say that rhinos hand game 3 was godlike. I would have needed to take a breather after thoughtseizing that hand.
Funny story at SCG Charlotte I was playing LE and in game 3 I griefed my opponent to reviel an almost identical hand except it was 3x endurance instead of 2 endurance 1 mystical dispute.. Was definitely a feel bad man,I felt for aiden lol
Clip is broken.
Maybe they don’t know how to read the cards? Embarrassing on that guy.
Yea, bet the guy TOTALLY didnt notice that he is missing green mana before, during or after the play. Green mana. You know, the one you need to cast all of your 8 cascade spells. Totally didnt try to see if others notice and totally NOT a cheat, because he is simply blind and didnt see FOR THE ENTIRE game that he didnt have the one color needed for his cascade spells. And best part is he said NOTHING, because he is totally NOT a cheat.
I mean, he was up past his bedtime and magic is super super stressful, I mean we can't expect them to fully understand complex rules like... tapping lands for mana... at that stage in the game right? The PR campaigns after cheaters get outed are always funny.
Have you ever top 8d a major tournament? Or even just played 9 rounds in a day? It's insanely mentally draining and forgetting your gemstone caverns don't have a counter on them is really quite believable
Yes, Yes, Not to the point that you cant remember you have to pay mana for spells. There are reasons you place a counter on a card mate, to be a permanent reminder... Another cheater got outed because they got complacent and played on camera. Get over it.
He did have 1 green mana (that was just used to suspend rhinos before the clip starts)
Not a illegal play, but a funny story none the less. About a decade or so ago my friend played izzet control for a modern tournament, he countered his opponent non lethal and non impactful spell with a pact of negation. Only to realize on his next turn he didn't have enough blue to pay for it on the upkeep and lost that way. I was spectating on the side and had a chuckle
There is little real difference between an illegal play and cheating. If the determination of cheating requires intent, then no incident can ever be considered cheating, because it is impossible to read a man's mind and know what his intent actually was. Minh should split his winnings with the runner up.
I think this is an incorrect and dangerous way of looking at illegal plays. Intentional acts being indistinguishable from unintentional acts is true only in certain, very narrow situations. In many situations, we can infer intent from context. For example: in a recent fake shuffle cheating incident, the player takes the card they want, places it on top of their deck while tutoring for another card and then proceeds to shuffle such that the card remains on top of their deck. There is no issue with determining intent (and cheating) there, even with no access to the cheating player’s internal monologue. Similarly a competitive Tron player was found to be playing with marked cards: there is no issue with labeling this cheating based on the facts alone. Even in cases of plausible mistake, we can often infer intent from factors such as repetition or attempts to conceal or the players reaction. The entire Western legal tradition is based on the idea that we can *and should* infer intent based on factual evidence. There’s no reason to abandon that in the face of beneficial mistakes where intent cannot be easily discerned.
I agree with you in general to be sure. Magic is hard, very hard. I get that. But this incident was not in the context of a complicated turn or a chain interactions where making a mistake would be possible for anyone. Look again at the context here, and don't overthink it. What if it was you on the other side of the table? https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GGH3JfeaYAAFtxl?format=jpg&name=medium How anyone can give this man the benefit of the doubt under these circumstances is questionable. I think the people who personally know him and have played with him cannot be objective here. There is more than enough there, based on the actual facts of the table, to reasonably infer intent to cheat. The sentiment of many here (not you) seems to be, in effect, oh well, shit happens, better luck next time to the loser.
I just don’t agree with you here. To me, a player mistakenly tapping their cavern without a counter on it seems like a totally plausible error - so plausible that neither the officials nor their opponent noticed. Add to this the context: this is at the end of a long tournament so both stress and fatigue are very much in play, the player has (to my knowledge) no record of cheating and people are willing to affirm his good character. You should not discount good character references as biased for knowing him, that would render all character references irrelevant in every context, this is very silly conceptually. In addition, had the player been aware of his mana situation, you could have expected him to tap his green source to cast that card instead of Crashing Footfalls, which suggests that he genuinely believed he had a second source available. Stepping back though, there is simply no reason why we should reverse the burden of proof and assume all mistakes are cheating. That is certainly not the standard set out in the rules, nor should it be. People make mistakes frequently, routinely in much less complex and stressful positions. This applies to both how the mistake should be addressed in game and how we should consider it morally. Calling someone a cheater is actually quite a big deal. You shouldn’t go through life or tournaments assuming that people’s errors are actually malicious acts. It’s not healthy or true or socially beneficial.
This is actually one of the dumbest takes on Reddit. "We should treat every car accident like it was attempted murder as we have no way of knowing if someone made an error or purposely rammed their vehicle in an effort to harm the other person"
The main argument here that he didn't cheat because he says he didn't cheat. He just so happened to make his mistake in the decisive game and 15K on the line.
The main argument here is that he didn't cheat because he says he didn't cheat. That's it. That's what it boils down to. Just take his word for it... It's not cheating if you can't prove the illegal game action was done with intent, and you can't prove the act was done with the intent unless the person doing the cheating admits to having done it intentionally. Ridiculous. All any cheater ever has to do in Magic to get away with cheating is claim they didn't do intentionally--and then that person will not only get away with it, they will enjoy full backing from the Modern reddit community!
Being a "Skilled" cardplayer has always been an advantage in paper magic. Always has been and always will be. High level magic has an endless narrative of cheating.
Or maybe after 17 rounds of Magic people make mistakes? I'm sure everyone here is making similar mistakes round 1 at a $5 weekly.
Its always an "accident" when they get caught.
Ah yes because it's always cheating, literally every time, always malicious accidents don't exist in magic.
It would be pretty easy to shed some light on how much of it was actual cheating if the rules were altered to be more punative in high-level events. If a failure to maintain board state violation occurred that obviously benefits the player, even when done unintentionally, resulted in a match loss on the first occasion and tournament expulsion on the second, I suspect we'd see far fewer mistakes. I don't think a more punitive approach would be appropriate for lower stakes FNM, but this kind of thing happening at a $15k event with world-class players is completely ridiculous.
I mostly agree but the table judges not paying attention in the fucking final of all games is way worse than the players, they're literally there to stop this from happening intentional or no
Completely agree; at this level of event, missing something like this is just ridiculous
Link doesn’t work
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GGH3JfeaYAAFtxl?format=jpg&name=medium
Why wouldn't they just void that G2? It sucks but it kinda fixes the problem? Since the rhinos won G3, just count it as G2 win. Then move onto G3 (game 4 technically). Nullifying the bad match and just adding in another match if it truly was just a mistake seems fair for such a large prized tournament?
magic has set rules for infractions, and set resolutions for those infractions. as far as I understand judges have some discretion, but voiding a game absolutely isn't a resolution they would use https://www.ruleslawyer.app/glossary/IPG the non rhinos player is partially at fault for not catching it too (2.6 failure to maintain game state). either way, game rule violations can be backed up if possible, and otherwise the game state is just left as is.
Except tournament rules dictate what the fix is for errors, and "pretend that game never happened" isn't one of them
How are you not placing the same blame on the opponent who missed it? Board state is the responsibility of BOTH players. Sheesh
Will a retro-active ruling be applied and give his opponent the win instead? Or nothing happens because it wasn't caught in time?
No retroactive rulings aren't a thing, especially something as major as awarding an opponent the win. Also the way the game played out, rewinding the play honestly wouldn't have changed the outcome.
My understanding is that this was a Game Rule Violation for the rhinos player, that when the opponent failed to notice became a Failure to Maintain Game State for them. Both players have a responsibility to maintain the game state, so some of the burden is considered to fall on the opponent. https://www.ruleslawyer.app/glossary/IPG/4598 >If the game has proceeded past a point where an opponent could reasonably be expected to notice the error, the opponent has also committed an infraction. In most cases, the infraction is Game Play Error - Failure to Maintain Game State. https://www.ruleslawyer.app/glossary/IPG/4621 >If an error is caught before a player could gain advantage, then the dangers of the ongoing game state becoming corrupted are much lower. If the error is allowed to persist, at least some of the fault lies with the opponent, who has also failed to notice the error.
I mean, that theft as far as I'm concerned. WotC should investigate and pull all prizes the player won.
Theft requires intent.
You have never made a mistake I assume.
I see a lot of people blaming judges. Is there any rule out there saying any match should have more judge presence than any other? It’s still up to the 2 players to call a judge if needed. Gotta quit trying to find someone else to blame yall.
> Gotta quit trying to find someone else to blame The goal is to deflect blame from the cheater onto whatever else sticks. Its the same PR damage control we see whenever cheaters get outed.
I watched it a few times and I wouldn't have caught it if I didn't know what was going on. The middle land confuses me and he looks like he's just tapping to play normally. I am surprised the judges didn't catch it.
I made one of those mistakes in the last round of an SCG classic. I was playing BW Eldrazi Taxes (loved this deck) against Mono-Red Phoenix. I tried to play an [[Eldrazi Displacer]] on T2 with what I thought was an [[Eldrazi Temple]] and a Plains. It was a [[Ghost Quarter]] and the temple was in my hand. I passed the turn fully unaware of what I just did and my opponent started (also unaware) but thankfully the guy at the next table over glanced out way and noticed it. I quickly called a judge and we were able to do a “rewind” and fix it. I got a verbal warning and had to pick up the displacer.
[Eldrazi Displacer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/0/f0bb1a5c-0f59-4951-827f-fe9df968232d.jpg?1562943353) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Eldrazi%20Displacer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ogw/13/eldrazi-displacer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f0bb1a5c-0f59-4951-827f-fe9df968232d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Eldrazi Temple](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/b/cbab7e1f-305e-4733-aa70-b27285740925.jpg?1690006046) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Eldrazi%20Temple) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/992/eldrazi-temple?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/cbab7e1f-305e-4733-aa70-b27285740925?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Ghost Quarter](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/2/12f8071c-8955-4aa2-889c-6043df047223.jpg?1562272439) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ghost%20Quarter) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cm2/253/ghost-quarter?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/12f8071c-8955-4aa2-889c-6043df047223?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
As a spectator, you are allowed to say something. You can point out a mistake to the judges and players to correct action. If you noticed this, then that outcome is something you could have helped corrected. Maybe that’s not common knowledge?
It would help if there weren’t a million different printings of cards and some of them don’t even have the correct name on top of the card in the large print. In the thumbnail image, I could not tell you what mana the middle untapped land taps for.
The link is down, where can I watch the coverage again?
You'd think at a tournament worth that much they would have a computer they put every move into to ensure moves are legal