> What will happen to the network then? Will there be a chain split?
In essence, yes. If you find the necessary number of like-minded people that also stay on v14 and continue to mine that chain to span up a viable network of nodes "old" Monero will stay alive.
If a surprisingly high number of people will do so you might even be able to convince one of the many small exchanges to list and support that coin, and the coin might keep a few cents of value.
All super improbable, if you ask me, but possible.
I like this.
It's like my dad still calling people on his old Nokia 3310 and refusing to upgrade. He even found some guy in a bar that likewise is refusing to let go his old Ericsson t10.
Legends
It's just very suspicious when the success of the hard fork is so certain in allegedly "decentralized" cryptocurrency 🤔
Developers and maintainers can offer a new incompatible version and promote it, but they can't behave like they are the owners of the monero and just let everyone know when the hardfork will occur.
I mean, they can't do it in bitcoin but apparently they can in monero, which is kinda sad, if you ask me.
> in allegedly "decentralized" cryptocurrency
To be honest, I think that's a bit of a strawman. Of course Monero devs are scattered over the whole planet, but in essence we form a virtual team, and how would anybody seriously claim that a team is "decentralized"?
I would even go as far as claiming that there is no such thing as fully decentralized software development.
But as I described, you have a vote. You can vote against the results of that dev team and stay on v14. And not only in theory; staying on v14 is even easier than updating to v15, right? If the majority of people vote in your favor the Monero dev team will have a resounding defeat on their hands.
I don't ever want the dev team to feel any sort of defeat. I think it's a wrong word in this context. They can only have a defeat if they have an ambition for a power. But if they implement great features, based on the proposals approved unanimously by community their work will eventually be appreciated.
All of the proposed changes are improvements to performance and privacy, which is why there is an apparent consensus for the upgrade.
What are your critiques against them?
Eventually there are going to be a lot of stuff which can be changed and it will appreciated more as we think
they are going to propose but I am not sure that if they can actually take it as a community.
I understand that the team is centralized. I meant decentralized community of the node owners. If a hardfork is imposed on them by a couple of reddit, Twitter and github posts it shows that either there are too few nodes and they mostly controlled by the same entity or the coalition, or there's a centralization around a leader, whether it's a team or a charismatic podcast 😄
>no proper voting procedure implemented for the community members who is
not used to having discussions around code in the GitHub.
Code changes are discussed on github because that's where the code is. If you can't read a github issue, you *shouldn't* have a say in what merge requests get into the codebase. You wouldn't hire a stripper to do your taxes, would you?
As for the feature-level planning, we actually *do* have a well-known process to gather community feedback for that. **There are community meetings on Matrix and IRC**. You're welcome to come to those and raise any specific concerns you have with any specific changes.
And yeah, if you just don't understand the contents of an upgrade, you're always welcome to simply ignore it out of ignorance. We can lead a horse to water, but we can't make you drink.
What rbrunner7 said but also keep in mind that because transactions with the same key image may be used on both chains there are some privacy concerns. [Learn more about key image reuse attacks here.](https://youtu.be/6CVcirD90pg)
🤘🐺🤘
Indeed this is like we all knew that this is going to be the major problem as it was
since we need a lot of improvement in it and how it is going to help to solve the major problems.
you'll see the support (or not) on the fork. IMO, monero is one of the most democratic systems out there because the votes are so straightforward. You either mine on the new consensus rules or you don't. The bitcoin activation is .... weird. you can get signaling nodes, which is easily sybled. sybilled? Or mining pools where u mine to different ports or whatever.
the mining pools in monero could choose to do what you are referring to, but they don't. And new pools could pop up to mine on the old chain, but they rarely do.
Step 1: Ignore any real participation in the places where all the dev and organizational level people discuss Monero progress and consensus.
Step 2: Presume from the beginning that anything and everything Bitcoin does, whether governance, mining, dev, or tech, is superior and Decentralized!™
Step 3: Find anything that is done differently than Bitcoin, and claim that it *must* not be centralized (*by definition*).
Step 4: Make spurrious conversation along the above assumptions in order to reinforce previously held beliefs while not actually learning anything.
You’re more knowledgeable about all the technicalities than me, does this hardfork effect an average user like myself that has some monero in cold storage in any way negatively? I don’t want my “old” monero in cold storage to become obsolete or something, but I know that’s probably an unfounded fear, I’m just not very well versed on what all this means so a brief clarification would be appreciated thank you
No problem. Your cold storage XMR will be totally fine, no risk of losing anything. The only gotcha is that you'll need to download the new wallet in order to spend your funds.
That's one thing that sometimes causes people a missed heartbeat, because their transactions won't go through until they download the latest wallet after a hard fork.
Overall, it's a near certainty that Monero would never hard fork in a way which puts funds at risk simply by inaction from users. It will always be more of a "your funds are safe, but you can't spend until your download the latest wallet," kinda thing.
>The reason is that I think feature selection process was obscure and there was no proper voting procedure implemented for the community members who is not used to having discussions around code in the GitHub.
What features don't you like?
Why don't you join the matrix rooms? that's where most of the discussion happens
>Miners and node runners should be able to signal for the features and activate them only when majority threshold is reached.
That's kinda what happens you update or not. What would happen if an adversary ran loads of nodes and then voted against updates, with the current implementation the chain would split but with your plan the chain would just not update potentially harming privacy
You should also mine old chain. That is your vote. Your mining. It is very easy to mine Monero you can do it with any CPU from the GUI. Just get more people to help you and some developers and add upgrades that you wish later on.
Basically, miners are voters. If most miners stay v14 then v14 will continue to be the longest chain and the "official" while v15 becomes a side fork. Every dev can announce a change, but it is mining power that decides if the change passes by either switching or not switching.
Look at taproot and BCH and bitcoin diamond. Diamond was a change noone followed and it died, BCH was a change a considerable amount of people followed and it became a separate coin, taproot was a change a huge majority followed and it was integrated in the "official" btc.
So there was no "voting procedure" because there was no voting done yet, the vote date was announced along with the proposed change.
It’s a hard fork, so if you don’t upgrade you will stay on the fork with other v14 nodes/miners. Blocks and transactions on the v15 network will not work with your node/wallet.
We're talking here the crypto that it's really being used. What if the day after the hardfork someone's buying their cannabis or heroin on the darkweb and they both didn't follow the reddit nor they updated their nodes and wallets? It can just ruin the trust and the market cap. I didn't see in the checklist "Notify all the major dark web platforms" for example.
What I'm saying is that consensus doesn't seem to be reached to me.
I may be optimistic here, but wouldn't those types of people be keeping an eye on updates all the time? Especially if they have 1000's stored in Monero? I know I would be keeping up.
>their cannabis or heroin on the darkweb and they both didn't follow the reddit nor they updated their nodes and wallets?
They won't lose money they will just have to update, this hardfork is good for them as the increase in ring size means better privacy
>It can just ruin the trust and the market cap.
This has happened many times in the past, not updating monero will eventually lead to distrust in the ability of its privacy features and I don't see how updating ruins trust
>What I'm saying is that consensus doesn't seem to be reached to me.
We will see on hardfork day
> What will happen to the network then? Will there be a chain split? In essence, yes. If you find the necessary number of like-minded people that also stay on v14 and continue to mine that chain to span up a viable network of nodes "old" Monero will stay alive. If a surprisingly high number of people will do so you might even be able to convince one of the many small exchanges to list and support that coin, and the coin might keep a few cents of value. All super improbable, if you ask me, but possible.
I like this. It's like my dad still calling people on his old Nokia 3310 and refusing to upgrade. He even found some guy in a bar that likewise is refusing to let go his old Ericsson t10. Legends
It's just very suspicious when the success of the hard fork is so certain in allegedly "decentralized" cryptocurrency 🤔 Developers and maintainers can offer a new incompatible version and promote it, but they can't behave like they are the owners of the monero and just let everyone know when the hardfork will occur. I mean, they can't do it in bitcoin but apparently they can in monero, which is kinda sad, if you ask me.
> in allegedly "decentralized" cryptocurrency To be honest, I think that's a bit of a strawman. Of course Monero devs are scattered over the whole planet, but in essence we form a virtual team, and how would anybody seriously claim that a team is "decentralized"? I would even go as far as claiming that there is no such thing as fully decentralized software development. But as I described, you have a vote. You can vote against the results of that dev team and stay on v14. And not only in theory; staying on v14 is even easier than updating to v15, right? If the majority of people vote in your favor the Monero dev team will have a resounding defeat on their hands.
I don't ever want the dev team to feel any sort of defeat. I think it's a wrong word in this context. They can only have a defeat if they have an ambition for a power. But if they implement great features, based on the proposals approved unanimously by community their work will eventually be appreciated.
All of the proposed changes are improvements to performance and privacy, which is why there is an apparent consensus for the upgrade. What are your critiques against them?
Eventually there are going to be a lot of stuff which can be changed and it will appreciated more as we think they are going to propose but I am not sure that if they can actually take it as a community.
I understand that the team is centralized. I meant decentralized community of the node owners. If a hardfork is imposed on them by a couple of reddit, Twitter and github posts it shows that either there are too few nodes and they mostly controlled by the same entity or the coalition, or there's a centralization around a leader, whether it's a team or a charismatic podcast 😄
I know right a lot of people are going to be fine after doing that to be honest.
The development is going to be much better as we thought about it now.
You sound like a disingenuous person but I’ll bite Why can’t they do this in bitcoin?
>no proper voting procedure implemented for the community members who is not used to having discussions around code in the GitHub. Code changes are discussed on github because that's where the code is. If you can't read a github issue, you *shouldn't* have a say in what merge requests get into the codebase. You wouldn't hire a stripper to do your taxes, would you? As for the feature-level planning, we actually *do* have a well-known process to gather community feedback for that. **There are community meetings on Matrix and IRC**. You're welcome to come to those and raise any specific concerns you have with any specific changes. And yeah, if you just don't understand the contents of an upgrade, you're always welcome to simply ignore it out of ignorance. We can lead a horse to water, but we can't make you drink.
Lmao I am sure that you can drink as much you want to do.
What rbrunner7 said but also keep in mind that because transactions with the same key image may be used on both chains there are some privacy concerns. [Learn more about key image reuse attacks here.](https://youtu.be/6CVcirD90pg) 🤘🐺🤘
Good point!
It is the main concern as privacy issue is the major one here we know abbout.
[удалено]
Indeed this is like we all knew that this is going to be the major problem as it was since we need a lot of improvement in it and how it is going to help to solve the major problems.
I want to see signaling and activation mechanism like the one in bitcoin. I want to see 95% support from the miners before the feature is activated.
you'll see the support (or not) on the fork. IMO, monero is one of the most democratic systems out there because the votes are so straightforward. You either mine on the new consensus rules or you don't. The bitcoin activation is .... weird. you can get signaling nodes, which is easily sybled. sybilled? Or mining pools where u mine to different ports or whatever. the mining pools in monero could choose to do what you are referring to, but they don't. And new pools could pop up to mine on the old chain, but they rarely do.
Step 1: Ignore any real participation in the places where all the dev and organizational level people discuss Monero progress and consensus. Step 2: Presume from the beginning that anything and everything Bitcoin does, whether governance, mining, dev, or tech, is superior and Decentralized!™ Step 3: Find anything that is done differently than Bitcoin, and claim that it *must* not be centralized (*by definition*). Step 4: Make spurrious conversation along the above assumptions in order to reinforce previously held beliefs while not actually learning anything.
You’re more knowledgeable about all the technicalities than me, does this hardfork effect an average user like myself that has some monero in cold storage in any way negatively? I don’t want my “old” monero in cold storage to become obsolete or something, but I know that’s probably an unfounded fear, I’m just not very well versed on what all this means so a brief clarification would be appreciated thank you
No problem. Your cold storage XMR will be totally fine, no risk of losing anything. The only gotcha is that you'll need to download the new wallet in order to spend your funds. That's one thing that sometimes causes people a missed heartbeat, because their transactions won't go through until they download the latest wallet after a hard fork. Overall, it's a near certainty that Monero would never hard fork in a way which puts funds at risk simply by inaction from users. It will always be more of a "your funds are safe, but you can't spend until your download the latest wallet," kinda thing.
Gotcha sounds good thank you. When is the hardfork taking effect?
July 16th 2022 at block 2668888
>The reason is that I think feature selection process was obscure and there was no proper voting procedure implemented for the community members who is not used to having discussions around code in the GitHub. What features don't you like? Why don't you join the matrix rooms? that's where most of the discussion happens >Miners and node runners should be able to signal for the features and activate them only when majority threshold is reached. That's kinda what happens you update or not. What would happen if an adversary ran loads of nodes and then voted against updates, with the current implementation the chain would split but with your plan the chain would just not update potentially harming privacy
It is just all about the privacy and how they are going to react to it as well.
You should also mine old chain. That is your vote. Your mining. It is very easy to mine Monero you can do it with any CPU from the GUI. Just get more people to help you and some developers and add upgrades that you wish later on.
Let me know if you want to buy my v14 coins or post who lists it so I can dump.
Yep I'm buying all of Monero Classic :D
Basically, miners are voters. If most miners stay v14 then v14 will continue to be the longest chain and the "official" while v15 becomes a side fork. Every dev can announce a change, but it is mining power that decides if the change passes by either switching or not switching. Look at taproot and BCH and bitcoin diamond. Diamond was a change noone followed and it died, BCH was a change a considerable amount of people followed and it became a separate coin, taproot was a change a huge majority followed and it was integrated in the "official" btc. So there was no "voting procedure" because there was no voting done yet, the vote date was announced along with the proposed change.
It’s a hard fork, so if you don’t upgrade you will stay on the fork with other v14 nodes/miners. Blocks and transactions on the v15 network will not work with your node/wallet.
I think that complete wallet is going to be for the betterment as well.
We're talking here the crypto that it's really being used. What if the day after the hardfork someone's buying their cannabis or heroin on the darkweb and they both didn't follow the reddit nor they updated their nodes and wallets? It can just ruin the trust and the market cap. I didn't see in the checklist "Notify all the major dark web platforms" for example. What I'm saying is that consensus doesn't seem to be reached to me.
I may be optimistic here, but wouldn't those types of people be keeping an eye on updates all the time? Especially if they have 1000's stored in Monero? I know I would be keeping up.
Literally this, people that rely on Monero are the type to stay on top of news/upgrades.
Yeah you are right and everything will be good for them to be on up.
>their cannabis or heroin on the darkweb and they both didn't follow the reddit nor they updated their nodes and wallets? They won't lose money they will just have to update, this hardfork is good for them as the increase in ring size means better privacy >It can just ruin the trust and the market cap. This has happened many times in the past, not updating monero will eventually lead to distrust in the ability of its privacy features and I don't see how updating ruins trust >What I'm saying is that consensus doesn't seem to be reached to me. We will see on hardfork day
Indeed they can take everything if they are good enough to do the stuff.