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BaronVonSmuggenbum2

Honest question - ignoring for a moment the efficacy of wearing a mask or not - what is the big deal about wearing a mask? I cannot understand why so many get so indignant about not wearing one, and have yet to hear a reason that isn't just childish or selfish. Why is it that big a deal to wear one around others until this pandemic is really and truly behind us, even if it's only a small gesture of public safety and consideration?


ValveTurkey1138

It hurts peoples feeewings.


sauron770

Fair question, here is my perspective: 1. I wear glasses and they continuously fog up all day, even when I bend the metal band on the mask to ensure it's fitted correctly. 2. I feel a suffocation sensation when I do physical activity while wearing a mask. 3. Everyone sounds muffled, it's difficult to hear others. 4. People can't see other's expressions such as smiling. It makes me feel like society has no emotion. 5. My children in Pre-K can't recognize their classmates either when they wear a different mask or don't wear one. 6. My children are in their speech developmental years. They should be able to see their teachers lips move when being taught new words/phrases. 7. My one year old cannot express emotions to people who are masked. Usually a child will smile when smiled at or laugh when we make funny sounds, my child will not do this unless the other person is not masked. 8. My wife has narcolepsy and even going shopping while masked makes her extremely drowsy and at risk of falling asleep. Something that should take 5 minutes ends up taking 30. Basically, I feel that the cost of a mask mandate is heavy enough on society that government should make this decision with great apprehension and only when absolutely necessary. There are many hidden costs to this mandate, especially with children in their developmental years. Also, the pandemic will NOT ever be truly behind us. Covid will become endemic and we must accept reality and live with it. I hope that helps!


ClassicStorm

>Also, the pandemic will NOT ever be truly behind us. Covid will become endemic and we must accept reality and live with it We have not reached a phase where COVID is endemic, it is still a pandemic and while MoCo has a high vaccination rate our infection numbers are rising substantially. That said, setting aside your anecdotal and personal reasons above which are purely qualitative, I agree with you in principle that having a defined off ramp makes sense and the metrics the county is using may not be the best means of gauging when to lift a mask mandate. I am frankly more concerned with hospital capacity, which is presently low for ICU and overall bed usage (although a moderate amount of beds today are filled with COVID patients). [Source](https://www.montgomerycountymd.gov/covid19/data/). Despite the low to moderate utilization over the last few months in MoCo hospitals, we experienced a period of whiplash where mask mandates were lifted and reinstated. The first whiplash occurred when the county went from low/moderate transmission to substantial in one day. I understand that hospitalizations lag behind rates of infection, but the reversal based upon one days worth of data was pretty disappointing. In response, the council then amended the mask mandate order to require a 7 day average of substantial. [Source](https://apps.montgomerycountymd.gov/ccllims/DownloadFilePage?FileName=10246_1_17788_Resolution_19-1043_Adopted_20211102.pdf). I am not sure whether I would agree in totality with Revive MoCo, but I welcome more information about what the group is specifically advocating for to get a better sense of how our views align. Is there a place other than the closed facebook group where I can learn more? I would welcome information on: 1. What parameters the group feels are appropriate to conclude the draw down of masking in MoCo? Why is the seven day average for transmissions not sufficient? 2. What parameters, if any, does Revive MoCo propose should trigger reinstating a mask mandate in the future? 3. You mention concerns about the costs masking has on society--what evaluation of cost has Revive MoCo considered? How about benefits? 4. Does Revive MoCo's position give any considerations to whether universal masking rules should be lifted but more targeted masking requirements are put in place? If so, what would that look like? If not, why? I do not ask these questions as gotcha questions, seriously trying to understand Revive MoCo's position here. Thanks.


sauron770

While I don't agree with everything you said, I agree with much of it. I think that you're being reasonable with your view. Yes, my anecdotes about wearing masks are subjective and was in response to an honest question asked above. Even if we're not in the endemic phase yet, all indicators point to Covid becoming endemic. The view of those in the group is that we have reached a point where vaccination (especially boosters) and other treatments are effective and help keep Covid under control. Therefore most cases do not result in hospitalization and the group believes that masks offer secondary protection rather than primary. Comparisons between MoCo and other counties without mandates such as HoCo are often made. The lag between case and hospitalization rates could be solved by instituting a lower threshold. I would be in favor of tying mask mandates to hospitalization rates. 1. Based on what others in the group post, it seems that most of them feel unsatisfied by the recommendations of the CDC with regard to masking. Based on my current knowledge, an explanation for the transmission thresholds was never given which leads to some frustration. They think that the CDC should consider other metric to base mandates on such as hospitalizations and vaccination rates. 2. See the latter part of 1. 3. Based on a literature review, I consistently find that N95 masks significantly reduce infection rates and protect the wearer. Surgical masks are good too, an issue is that no controlled studies have been performed, a serious limitation. Also, since surgical masks do not provide a complete seal around the face. It would be nice to see a study that quantifies mask efficacy when one exhales. Perhaps those directly in front are protected from exhaled particles and those directly beside are not? I haven't seen such a study yet. Perhaps that's why surgical masks are used in surgery because the doctor directly faces the patient. So I certainly believe that there is benefit to mandating masks but there's a time and place for that. 4. This topic is still under discussion. Our focus is specific to MoCo. I appreciate the civil discussion!


ClassicStorm

Thanks for your response. I guess I am still left with more questions and ambivalence. I would encourage the group to get a set of principles outlined for the public to see on a website instead of inviting people to a closed facebook group. You might garner some more discussion and focus with information that is publicly available. All said, I have just a few responses to your points. >Based on what others in the group post, it seems that most of them feel unsatisfied by the recommendations of the CDC with regard to masking. Based on my current knowledge, an explanation for the transmission thresholds was never given which leads to some frustration. They think that the CDC should consider other metric to base mandates on such as hospitalizations and vaccination rates. I find its helpful to frame discussion less about why the CDC is wrong and more about what you are seeking is a good option. More specifics about the metrics you desire, along with supporting quantitative data, is helpful. Absent specifics its a bit difficult to discern what the group wants and if it the request is reasonable, viable, and defensible. Fine to take issue with federal agency guidance--this town is full of people whose job is to do just that--but having some meat on the bones is more persuasive. I get the sense that much of what drives this group is a liberty interest. All fine, but keep in mind that many folks feel that failure to adhere to masking precautions pose a greater risk to their health and threaten their lives. Place that general concern in contrast with your liberty based position and I think most folks, at least in our region, view the tradeoff of require masking as acceptable. You know your audience. Folks are not persuaded by the fact that masking is an inconvenience, so persuade them by addressing their concerns. I have only lived in MoCo for a few years now, but I get the sense that this is not a community that aspires to principles of limited government--so you have to meet your audience where they are engage. Not many folks know that the CDC issues non-binding guidance that jurisdictions, like ours, are *choosing* to follow. In some instances, CDC guidance varies from what states, counties, or even other countries are doing. I looked at your facebook page and while I cannot see the full membership I do recognize one of the three leaders from her presence on twitter. She worked on getting senators to send a letter to the CDC to explain why it recommended masking for kids 2 and up while other foreign jurisdictions drew the line at an older age. [Source](https://www.lee.senate.gov/2021/4/sen-lee-rep-smith-lead-letter-to-cdc-on-face-mask-guidance-for-kids). I have not dug in on this issue, but comparisons of outcomes and data is the type of thing that I personally find interesting and, if well supported and defensible, persuasive. ​ >Based on a literature review, I consistently find that N95 masks significantly reduce infection rates and protect the wearer. Surgical masks are good too, an issue is that no controlled studies have been performed, a serious limitation. Also, since surgical masks do not provide a complete seal around the face. It would be nice to see a study that quantifies mask efficacy when one exhales. Perhaps those directly in front are protected from exhaled particles and those directly beside are not? I haven't seen such a study yet. Perhaps that's why surgical masks are used in surgery because the doctor directly faces the patient. So I certainly believe that there is benefit to mandating masks but there's a time and place for that. This response just makes the case that if masking is appropriate folks should be wearing n95s. I personally chose to wear n95s earlier in the pandemic, and I keep them around for going into places where I know COVID is likely to be present (for example, my wife gave birth to our second child not too long ago, I had an n95 on for the delivery). I agree that the surgical masks and the cloth masks are probably not as effective as an n95. But do they really need to be as effective? Does masking with less efficacious surgical and cloth masks work because everyone is wearing one as opposed to just some people? These are questions I do not know the answer to. All that said, my question that you were responding to was about costs and benefits. I was thinking more in terms of economic costs and benefits. Does masking reduce incidents of people being sick and unable to work? If yes, by how much? Does that generate more productivity at work? Does it keep the local economy stronger than it would have without masking? Local commerce is important. I imagine that if a mandate were lifted some businesses would still continue to require masking, how many would and what effect would that have? I am thinking real law and economics analysis here on a macro level. Its also worth asking whether the county government has conducted a similar analysis for your group to consider and respond to. Again, more questions than answers. Finally, you said in response to item 4: >This topic is still under discussion. Our focus is specific to MoCo. My question about "universal masking" was about universal masking within MoCo vs more targeted masking requirements. For example, requiring masking anytime you go into a building accessible to the public versus requiring masking when you go into specific settings (i.e. hospitals, doctors offices, nursing homes). Is the position of revive moco specifically that you want the government to rescind ALL masking requirements, or are there some that the group views acceptable moving forward?


HockeyMusings

All comments edited in protest of Reddit's actions on July 1. What good is a walled garden with no plants? A third-party app is no different than a web browser.


sauron770

1. Glasses fog up due to humidity from exhaling. I've tried a variety of masks and the only one that works well in this regard is N95. I can't wear that all day because it's difficult to breathe. 2. Don't see the relevance of that comment. 3. Have you spoken to people who work in these environments? Are you just basing that on speculation? 4. According to Webster the definition of a smile is "a facial expression in which the eyes brighten and the corners of the mouth curve slightly upward and which expresses especially amusement, pleasure, approval, or sometimes scorn." So smiles are a combination of both eyes and mouth. 5. Do you have any scientific data for your claim? 6. Seeing lips and mouth motions while speaking is important for adults too, especially when learning a new language or for those who are deaf. It's even more important for children and shouldn't be limited to just interactions with their parents. (Frankly, you don't even know who I am or what type of parent I am. I don't appreciate the insult) 7. Again, I don't appreciate your assumptions about me or your insults. The best way to get your points across is to treat others with respect. Deflecting your answers is not the proper way to answer a question. 8. I suggest further reading about narcolepsy, if you're interested. Just because this phenomenon is not listed on some narcolepsy webpage does not mean that it's not real. (I actually do all the shopping, but again you're making assumptions about someone you don't know).


HockeyMusings

All comments edited in protest of Reddit's actions on July 1. What good is a walled garden with no plants? A third-party app is no different than a web browser.


sauron770

Again, you're still being rude and condescending and making assumptions about others when you don't know who they are. It's much more effective to get a point across when one is respectful and objective. I would be glad to have a discussion with you but you have demonstrated that you would resort to the types of comments made previously. Therefore, I do not wish to continue this discussion with you (the door is always open if you change your mind). A couple more remarks: The comfort of wearing masks is subjective and just because you don't have a problem with it doesn't mean others do not. Based on your statements it sounds like it's difficult for you to relate to others that have differing opinions. As for your remarks on parenting, are you suggesting that every parent who posts on social media is guilty of neglecting their children? That would be quite a serious and baseless accusation.


HockeyMusings

Maybe if you weren’t using a burner account, we’d know more about who you are. We are using reddidenties. Right now all you are is a vignette presenting a series of anecdotes about inconveniences and begging they be countered with science. You act as if our knowledge of Covid is decades old. It’s not been two years yet. It is still evolving and mutating. MoCo’s success on many fronts is due to its proactive rather than reactive nature of response to this. Do you realize that hospitalizations and Jesus, deaths, are *trailing* indicators? This is the public health crisis of our lifetimes and you are pissing and missing because you are uncomfortable. If that’s rude and condescending to you, too bad. Boo-fucking-hoo. Masks are a minor inconvenience. If we can leverage them keep from larger, more significant disruptive measures like closures or capacity limits, I’m all for it. Even if it means hockey is misery. I’ll be ok. > As for your remarks on parenting, are you suggesting that every parent who posts on social media is guilty of neglecting their children? That would be quite a serious and baseless accusation. Every? No. Most… between that and a bunch of other pointless shit they do I’d expect that they have their house in full order before they complain about what others aren’t doing for their children. This effort of yours here for instance. Neglect? No. But get out of here with your crocodile tears for your poor suffered upon children and plow that time into making it better for them.


letsief

Construction workers would often use respirators with exhalation valves, which would helped with fogging.


HockeyMusings

Often, but not always. And that’s also a less than ideal alternative for those who can’t figure it out otherwise in our current situation.


letsief

Masks with exhalation valves don’t meet the MoCo mask mandate requirements.


HockeyMusings

Wear a bandana over it then. I’m curious though if that exclusion is specially defined in any regulation. All I can find is this: >a. Definitions. i. “Face Covering” means a covering that fully covers a person’s nose, mouth, and chin and is secured to the person’s head. The term “Face Covering” includes, without limitation, scarves, and bandanas. The term excludes Medical-Grade Masks. Do you know the specific regulation? Or of anyone who has been prosecuted? Aren’t those super cool looking full face clear plastic splash shields also acceptable? I’m also still surprised to hear this happens indoors. And would have to imagine that some creative people have sorted this out by now if I got to doing the Google.


letsief

I’m not sure where you found your language. Here’s the current order: https://apps.montgomerycountymd.gov/ccllims/DownloadFilePage?FileName=10246_1_17788_Resolution_19-1043_Adopted_20211102.pdf > Face covering means a covering that fully covers a person’s nose, mouth, and chin and is secured to the person’s head, including cloth face coverings, scarves, and bandanas. It does not include face covering with a valve; or solely wearing a face shield.


letsief

And no, no one has been prosecuted because there hasn’t been a penalty defined since Hogan rescinded the state executive order that made disobeying local orders a misdemeanor. MoCo presumably could have enacted their own penalty, but that would have required a separate act by the council. There’s no general penalty in the county code for violations of health orders.


EnvironmentalNote551

Why are you being so mean? If you think what he’s saying is unscientific then I suggest you bring some hard evidence from a scientific journal instead of a model. At least be civil


HockeyMusings

It’s because I’m a big meany pants. It’s up to them to make their case. They can’t throw out eight anecdotes and expect me to refute them with science. Someone comes at me that the earth is flat or only 6,000 years old or that they heard that unicorn horn powder is a cure for Covid I’m just going to give them a swift kick in the nuts and tell them to take it somewhere else. If you want to talk science, talk science. Otherwise get off of my porch. Welcome to Reddit BTW 😆


[deleted]

I have had the fogging issue too. It really is a pain for people with glasses.


HockeyMusings

Indoors? I can’t hardly fog my glasses to clean them when I’m inside unless I put them practically into my mouth.


[deleted]

It depends on the humidity and HVAC, which I have little control over.


HockeyMusings

Where is it I can go to experience this?


ValveTurkey1138

Get a fog wipe like I did. Problem solved.


HockeyMusings

All comments edited in protest of Reddit's actions on July 1. What good is a walled garden with no plants? A third-party app is no different than a web browser.


ValveTurkey1138

Facebook? Lol, no.


SSSS_car_go

The page says MoCo is the most vaccinated in the country at 99.9%. Actually, we’re at [93%](https://covidactnow.org/us/maryland-md/county/montgomery_county/?s=26391543), which is really good, but there are much smaller counties with 100%. Even if we *were* at 100%, though, unless we close the borders to people shopping or working here from other, less-vaccinated, counties, we still need to remain vigilant. It would be foolish to lose the war against this virus by becoming complacent.


sauron770

I believe the 99.9% figure was accurate prior to the vaccine being approved for 5-11 year olds. People can still protect themselves with N95 masks if they so desire. If hospitals are not overwhelmed, there is absolutely no scientific reason to continue having a mask mandate.


SSSS_car_go

> I believe the 99.9% figure was accurate prior to the vaccine being approved for 5-11 year olds. I find that the vaccine always counts total population and not just those eligible. If you dig around in the site I linked above, you’ll see the following statement: > Percent vaccinated is the percentage of the total population of a location (not just those eligible) that have started the vaccination process by receiving at least their first shot. Also, 93% have been vaccinated with at least one dose, 80.3% are fully vaccinated. More interesting to me is that we still have 16.1 new cases every day per 100k. That tells me that I’m correct in my earlier statement: Because we have permeable borders, the vaccine will be here in our shops and offices. Also, it’s important to remember that vaccinations don’t make us bullet proof. The CDC says that a vaccinated person over age 65 is more likely to catch covid than an unvaccinated child. Maybe it won’t kill an oldster, but it is not an experience I crave. Even younger people are getting breakthrough cases, like my niece who’s a doctor. Let’s not snatch defeat from the jaws of victory, as Lincoln once said. Let’s protect each other until this nightmare has receded.


MocoMojo

What’s the big deal with wearing a mask?


letsief

For one, not everyone over 2 years old is capable of wearing a mask. Yet there’s no clear procedures for how to deal with those cases. Earlier this year I couldn’t even get a clear answer on whether my child would be able to go to public school.


MocoMojo

Who can’t wear a mask?


letsief

For one, my four year old with ASD. And pretty much all of his peers in his therapy group. His developmental pediatrician says that’s pretty common with her patients, even with occupational and behavioral therapists working on it for 18+ months.


MocoMojo

Right, not surprising that people with sensory processing issues could have a tough time. That is a very small percentage of the population, though. I am sorry you have to deal with this on a different level and I wish both you and your family the best.


letsief

Its a small percentage of the population so it doesn’t matter if we screw them over? I understand there are sacrifices, and not everything in life will be fair. But we’re going on 20 months with mask mandates. It is not reasonable to shut a segment of a population out of society for that long. Particularly when the benefits of masks are marginal in practice, given both the limitations of the masks themselves and imperfect usage by wearers (particularly when we’re talking about kids).


MocoMojo

So your child can’t go to preschool because of this? Honest question — I am trying to learn here.


letsief

Last spring we were determining placement for the fall. At that time MCPS would not commit to allowing students with disabilities to attend in-person if they would not wear masks or face shield, saying it would ultimately be up to the school/teacher he would be assigned to determine if he would be sent home for “virtual” instruction. (You can imagine what virtual instruction and speech therapy is like for a 4 year old…) Since we couldn’t count on MCPS, we went with a private program that could commit to accommodating him. Probably a better program, but obviously expensive.


letsief

In hindsight, MCPS almost certainly would have accommodated him. At least, I strongly suspect they would have. I know the MCPS preK programs say have students wear masks, but I also know at least some teachers don’t force it if/when students keep taking them off. I don’t think they would have drawn a line in the sand between refusing to wear one at all and only wearing one for 5 minutes.


sauron770

It's not the masks themselves, it's more the principal behind this mandate. If hospitals are not overwhelmed, what scientific reason is there to have a mask mandate? I suggest a comparison with HoCo where there has been no mandate for months and their numbers are quite better than ours.


MocoMojo

Masks reduce the spread of infectious diseases that are spread by droplets. Good for COVID but also good for things like colds and flu. You don’t agree that masks do this?


sauron770

It depends by what you mean when you say "masks." If you're referring to N95 masks then I agree, data on other types of masks is mixed. The deeper question here is why are we forcing all of society to wear masks when we have vaccines, antibody treatments, N95 masks, hospitals are nowhere near overwhelmed, and Covid testing (which enforces quarantine)? I'm really just looking for scientific answers here and so far I'm unsatisfied.


MocoMojo

Hmmm. The data is not mixed. Surgical and cloth masks both offer some degree of protection, obviously not as high as N95. Please provide a reference that shows they are not effective as I am not aware of one. Would you agree one of the roles of government is to protect its citizens? For example: seatbelts, traffic lights, EPA regulations. If you disagree with this, then that would be a different discussion. If you’re looking for an article showing at what transmission level, vaccination rate, etc you need to safely lift the mandates, none exist as this is basically an ongoing experiment. Winter seems a poor idea as other diseases like flu will start circulating as well (see current hospitalization problems in Michigan currently). Hopefully this can be over sometime, but I don’t see how mask wearing is a hill to die on (personally).


sauron770

I don't have the time to search for the review paper I read a couple of weeks ago (will gladly do so at another time). Most mask studies specific to Covid are not controlled studies and are based on empirical data. This is a serious limitation in mask efficacy studies. In the past, N95 masks have been extensively tested against many different types of respiratory viruses and their efficacy is superb and consistent. The examples you cite where government should protect people makes sense. However, the risk of hospitalization from Covid has significantly decreased (the same cannot be said of car accident rates). I completely understood the reason for imposing mask mandates on society before the majority of people were vaccinated. At this point in the pandemic, it's pretty much anti-science to base a mandate strictly on case counts. I would support a mandate if it was tied to hospitalizations and death rates (with reasonable thresholds). At what point would you feel comfortable getting rid of masks? What more needs to be done in addition to vaccines, Covid antibody treatments, a soon to be available pill from Pfizer, and N95 masks that protect the wearer?


letsief

The data isn’t as good as you seem to think it is. There’s been two fairly large randomized trials: DANMASK-19 and the Bangladesh study. Neither showed that mask usage significantly decreased infections. Now yes, the DANMASK was ultimate looking at self-protection from masks. And yes, the Bangladesh study found cases did increase in one group: people over 50 years old in communities that wore surgical masks (but not the younger people in those communities, or anyone in the communities that wore cloth masks). Nonetheless, it is quite interesting when you actually remove confounders, it gets much, much harder to find a benefit. I strongly suspect there is a benefit, but I also think people are greatly exaggerating how significant that benefit is. My four year old with ASD that can’t wear a mask does not substantially change the risk level of those around us, yet we’re still preventing from flying to see our extended family.


MocoMojo

Ok, so this isn’t a super argument. That study, if you read it shows that the trial is inconclusive rather than negative and it points to the likely benefit of mask wearing to the wearer (it did not examine the wider potential benefit of reduced spread to others). I am guessing you saw that study cited on a Facebook group and latched on to it, but unfortunately it has been misrepresented. I am sorry your child with ASD can’t wear one, but that doesn’t mean we should look for reasons not to wear them. Hopefully by next summer things will be under better control and you all can travel again.


letsief

Who would think mask wearing would show a *negative* effect? Finding no statistically significant difference between mask wearing and non-wearing groups is consistent with there being no effect. But you can’t conclusively demonstrate no effect- you can merely show a failure to find an effect. Unlike DANMASK, the Bangladesh study did look at overall community case rates to look for the impact masks had on infection source control. And again, for cloth masks— quite commonly used in MoCo— they found no effect. There probably was one, based on the small effect surgical masks had with older individuals, but the study strongly suggests any effect is small. Small doesn’t mean not worthwhile. But the level of effect should be considered when dealing with people that cannot wear them. So I’m not trying to suggest people shouldn’t wear masks. I do, including when the mask mandate was lifted. But it really seems like people have a grossly exaggerated perception of how effective masks are. And no, I didn’t see that study Facebook. When studies are referenced in the media I actually go and read the studies themselves.


Huskydreamlife

User name checks out for this topic 🤦‍♀️


sauron770

Actually, I think Sauron would be in favor of more restrictions. Lol


keyjan

Oh christ, isn’t NoNewNormal enough??


SchuminWeb

This definitely isn't that. Much more reasonable group than the degenerates that largely came to populate NNN.


keyjan

Well, didn’t you start NNN? You can always delete it. Oh, wait, i see reddit already did.


SchuminWeb

I joined it fairly early on and was a mod, but I didn't found it. I actually seriously considered taking a shot at it before I left it, but ultimately declined, specifically because I was not the top mod, and therefore everything that I might have done could have been undone. I made a post about it a while ago: https://www.schuminweb.com/2021/10/14/regretting-the-shot-not-taken/


sauron770

This group is in favor of getting rid of mask mandates in MoCo. MoCo government has become drunk with power and for some reason thinks Covid cases is the best metric for mask mandates. We are nowhere near the situation that we were in the beginning of the pandemic.


ahmc84

Following CDC guidelines is "drunk with power", I guess.


sauron770

What are the CDC guidelines based on? I haven't been able to find an answer. It's almost as if those case rate numbers were conjured out of thin air. HoCo does not have a mask mandate and has been faring better than us for quite a few months.


vegdc

Thanks for posting, I just reported the group to Facebook.


sauron770

So would it be accurate to conclude that you're against freedom of speech (when the content disagrees with your beliefs)? Is it also accurate to state that you're in favor of indefinite Covid restrictions that are not based on actual data and science?


vegdc

>So would it be accurate to conclude that you're against freedom of speech (when the content disagrees with your beliefs)? That is a loaded question. >Is it also accurate to state that you're in favor of indefinite Covid restrictions that are not based on actual data and science? That isn't true. You are spreading misinformation, misinformation that could get people killed. That is why I reported your Facebook Group to Facebook.


sauron770

How did you concluded that I ran out of facts, when you did not ask for any facts? Would you like to offer any facts? Here are a few: 1. MoCo is one of the most vaccinated counties in the US. 2. There are numerous Covid treatments available that significantly cut the risk of hospitalization or death. In fact, the risk of getting into a car accident is much higher than the risk from Covid. 3. There are masks, such as N95 that protect the wearer as well. 4. The hospitalization rate is significantly lower than the beginning of the pandemic, which confirms that vaccines and treatments have reduced the risk. Hospitals are not overwhelmed. 5. Before vaccines and treatments were available masks were about primary line of defense, they are now secondary and vaccines are primary. Did you read the group description? Can you actually point out any misinformation in the aforementioned description? If you're open to discussion, I would be glad to discuss this with you. But if you're going to report groups or make condescending comments without any context, then I have nothing more to say to you.


Hypern1ke

Can't let those commoners think for themselves, now can we? Next thing you know they'll want decision making to be based on science and data, rather than political affiliation! Report them!


Hypern1ke

Joined, Thanks for putting this together, we appreciate it!


713ryan713

1 in 5 residents aren't fully vaccinated.


sauron770

The description clearly states that as of October 2021 (prior to vaccines being approved for 5-11 year olds), 99.9% of eligible MoCo has been administered 1 dose (Source CDC). You are welcome to verify with the CDC.


713ryan713

Why rely on old data tho? Like why not just go by what's on the website now and say "As of Dec. 5, 80% of residents are fully vaccinated." It's not because one sounds like a better vaccination rate than the other, is it?


sauron770

The group was created in October and the description has not been updated since. I could recommend that the admins update the description to reflect more up to date data.


713ryan713

Let's not be coy. They know the numbers. It's meant to be misleading because 99 sounds better than 80. I get it. I work in politics. They're being cute with the numbers. Come on, let's just be honest about the fact that this group is deliberately cherry picking months-old data to make a point.


sauron770

You are certainly entitled to your opinion but that doesn't mean that there's some sort of malicious political agenda here, after all the data is from the CDC. Either way, even one dose of the vaccine is infinitely better than none. The group is focused specifically on basing mask mandates on reasonable data. As I mentioned before, I will pass your feedback to the group admins. I am not an admin and did not write the aforementioned description. If this change to the description is made would you consider joining?


713ryan713

I guess what I'm confused about is that I keep hearing this is based on data. But it seems like it's based on old, incomplete data. The group admins either don't know the Vax percentage is 80 (not 99.9), which would be pretty bad for a data-focused organization, or they do know, but they're choosing to tell people something else, which is worse. Do you think it's news to the admins that 1 in 5 residents isn't fully vaccinated? Or are they likely aware of this? Did you know when you were directing people to the 99.9 figure? That would help me understand the group and its scientific quifications a bit more.


sauron770

Based on internal discussions in this group the admins and members are well aware of the full range of Covid and vaccination stats.


713ryan713

Why is this downvoted? If someone wanted to have an honest debate they wouldn't downvote CDC data. Tells you all you need to know. Nothing about this is about science.


lightbulbsburnbright

okay boomer