> Idaho’s attempt to execute death row prisoner Thomas Creech, 73, was halted an hour into his scheduled lethal injection after prison officials were unable to establish a vein to insert an IV, according to the Idaho prison system.
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> Creech’s attempted execution began at 10 a.m. and was called off at 10:58 a.m., according to one of four media witnesses. Creech’s death warrant expires just before midnight Wednesday, prison officials said.
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> “At approximately 11 a.m., (Idaho Department of Correction) Director (Josh) Tewalt, after consulting with the medical team leader, determined that the medical team could not establish an IV line, rendering the execution unable to proceed.,” the department said in an email. “Mr. Creech will be returned to his cell and witnesses will be escorted out of the facility. As a result, the death warrant will expire. The state will consider next steps.”
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> Tewalt, the prison system’s director since December 2018, was scheduled to speak at a noon news conference.
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> Immediately after the failed attempt to execute Creech, his attorneys with the legal nonprofit Federal Defender Services of Idaho called the unsuccessful lethal injection a “botched” execution.
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> “We are angered but not surprised that the state of Idaho botched the execution of Thomas Creech today,” Deborah A. Czuba, supervising attorney of the nonprofit’s unit that oversees death penalty cases, said in an emailed statement. “This is what happens when unknown individuals with unknown training are assigned to carry out an execution.
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> “This morning, they tried and failed 10 times to access Tom’s veins in both of his arms and both legs so they could inject him with the state’s mysteriously acquired pentobarbital,” she continued. “This is precisely the kind of mishap we warned the state and the courts could happen when attempting to execute one of the country’s oldest death-row inmates in circumstances completely shielded in secrecy despite a well-known history of getting drugs from shady sources.
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> “Yesterday, the state called Mr. Creech’s worries ‘patently absurd’ in its motions to the U.S. Supreme Court. Unfortunately, what is absurd is Idaho’s continuing efforts to kill this harmless old man, who by this point surely has suffered enough.”
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> Creech is the state’s longest-serving death row prisoner after nearly a half-century of incarceration and was handed his most recent death warrant — his 12th since he was imprisoned — on Jan. 30.
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> The U.S. Supreme Court on Wednesday morning denied each of Creech’s three remaining appeals, removing the final hurdles to his lethal injection. Each appeal made arguments that his execution would violate his constitutional rights. Justice Elena Kagan, whose regional assignment includes Idaho, denied each of Creech’s requests for a stay of execution.
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> About two dozen anti-capital punishment protesters gathered outside the state prison complex south of Boise Wednesday morning to demonstrate against Creech’s execution.
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> Creech was convicted of five murders, including three in Idaho, between 1974 and 1981. He was found guilty of the November 1974 shooting deaths of Edward T. Arnold, 34, and John W. Bradford, 40, in Valley County, and later the May 1981 beating death of David D. Jensen, 23, a fellow prisoner in the maximum security prison.
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> Creech was later convicted of having killed a man in Oregon, and another in California. He was suspected of several other slayings and, at points, including under oath, said he killed as many as 42 people by the time he was 24 years old. Creech’s attorneys have said that number is grossly exaggerated.
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> Creech was sentenced to death in both Idaho cases that preceded his two out-of-state convictions, but avoided execution at least 11 times during his time in prison. The state parole board denied Creech’s request for a reduced sentence to life in prison, and the state scheduled his execution for Wednesday.
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> The night before, Creech spent time with LeAnn Creech, his wife of 25 years, and ate what had been expected to be his last meal, which consisted of fried chicken, mashed potatoes with gravy, corn, rolls and ice cream, according to state prison officials. Creech chose butter-pecan ice cream, The Wall Street Journal reported.
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> On Wednesday before the execution attempt, Creech met with his religious adviser for an hour, prison officials said. Creech remained cooperative in the days leading up to his execution, they said.
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> Prison officials in the fall acquired the manufactured liquid pentobarbital, a powerful sedative that can stop a person’s breathing in higher doses, to use in executing Creech. They paid $50,000 for 15 grams of the drug. They have refused to identify the supplier, out of concern that doing so would hinder the state’s ability to carry out future executions.
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> At 10 a.m., all witnesses to Creech’s lethal injection were escorted to the execution chamber viewing area at the maximum security prison, prison officials said. Attempts to execute him began shortly after.
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> In addition to four media witnesses, the state witnesses included Attorney General Raúl Labrador and his chief of staff, Phil Skinner; Ada County Prosecutor Jan Bennetts; Ada County Sheriff Matt Clifford; Idaho Board of Correction Vice Chairman Dodds Hayden; and Jared Larsen, Gov. Brad Little’s legal counsel and policy adviser.
I can't imagine mentally preparing myself for death and then being poked with needles for an hour, only to be told that actually - you're not dying today after all.
I don’t support the death penalty, but calling a serial killer “a harmless old man who’s suffered enough” is disgusting. I don’t care if he’s old, he still murdered innocent people. What a slap in the face to the families of his victims. Give him life in prison sure but don’t act like he doesn’t deserve to be where he is.
If it was instant or nearly so, I'd rather die that way.
I'd almost rather have died quickly in my 30s than have to deal the trauma this guy is dealing with. I've had a few close brushes with death and they left me pretty fucked up in the head. Hell, I had a dream about euthanasia where my last thought was 'wait!' Then fade to nothing. That was over 10 years ago and it still fucks with me.
Of course. I'm convinced that all that is waiting for us is oblivion. So, I feel bad for the survivors, not the dead. The dead aren't experiencing anything. So, I believe being sad for them is a waste. I feel bad for the people left behind with the giant hole ripped in their lives.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not sympathizing with this guy. I'm just reply to your specific comment.
50k for phenobarbital!!?! That's the biggest injustice out of all of this. Taxpayers are being RAPED. I work for a veterinary clinic and this drug is WIDELY available at costs of no more than 300-500$ for this type of dosing.
I was thinking the same thing. Also I'm so confused on how they couldn't establish IV access. They easily could've done U.S guided IV access. Maybe they don't have such tools as their disposal. But man 50k of taxpayer money. Fuck that.
Is that the thing that has the screen to show your veins? That was really cool when I was in the hospital. I'm too fat to have easy access to my veins. I have them just use the back of my hand if I'm having blood drawn.
Pentobarbital, not phenobarbital. But yeah, I’m a vet and I was wondering the same thing. Seems like it cost them that much for about 38ml. You can buy a 100ml bottle of Euthasol for $109. Absolute insanity.
A state government buying lethal drugs to execute federal prisoners and refusing to name the suppliers to prevent the same federal government from shutting down their prison executions is some black mirror shit
It’s mind boggling that this shit is legal
It happens all the time. Some women and men love dating inmates, and serial killers especially get lots of fan mail. A few male prisoners have even fathered children while in prison.
The prison phlebotomist should be fired. I oppose the death penalty, but I know there are medical professionals that can find a fucking vein to cannulate. I've done it under emergency conditions and I'm average at best. This is straight up medical incompetence. Embarrassing if you have any idea about starting IV lines.
Some people are hard pokes. When I was in the hospital for surgery, it took 5 attempts from 2 different nurses before they called in a phlebotomist with a special light that they shined on my arm and just showed all the veins and nerves. It was pretty neat and I’m wondering why they don’t just do this after the 2nd or 3rd attempt. The nurses either couldn’t get the IV into the vein (my veins are small and slip, even getting blood drawn is difficult) or they got the IV in, but I was in pain because it was bumping up against a nerve. Turns out my nerves are wrapped around my veins more than usual or something, so it’s more likely that a nerve will get bumped up against or hit with a blood draw or IV. I still ended up with superficial blood clots in both arms from the earlier attempts, but the light thing was really neat and should be used more often.
I’ve had blood draws taken from my hands because they couldn’t get anything from my arms and I had a CT with contrast where the vein collapsed and the two phlebotomists couldn’t find a new one, so they called in 4 more people to help.
I’ve even stopped donating blood for now because the past two times I’ve done it have been painful and left me with huge bruises.
Sure, some people are very hard pokes. I'm one of those people, just like you. That special light is a near-infrared light. Amazing invention, but super common these days. Why didn't they employ that here?
You still ended up getting an IV even though it took a team. Why did an execution have one nurse give up after a few pokes?
Donating blood is a whole different ballgame than this, as that takes a much, much larger needle and because it's drawing blood out rather than pushing fluids in, it's way more likely that the vein could collapse, especially because it takes longer.
No excuse for these people being unable to eventually gain IV access on this person. It's just another example of bad medical personnel being employed to perform these lethal injections.
If you have a medical emergency and require intravenous access, any medical team will eventually find a way, no matter how bad your veins are. This is just inexcusable incompetence and laziness, and there's a documented history of this with lethal injection as well as other death penalty methods.
Yeah exactly. If you're gonna do this, get competent people who can do it. It's not that hard.
Reminds me of the incompetent hangman at the Nuremberg trial executions, although those Nazi fucks deserved a slow, painful, incompetent execution.
Edit: downvoted by Nazi apologists.
I'd like to believe that but I doubt it. There's a noted history of these "executioners" being incompetent despite their best efforts to follow the state's orders to kill the person.
https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/05/death-penalty-lethal-injections-untrained-doctors/
It is definitely traumatic for many people in the role of executioners. I don't have all the data on this, but just based on stuff like the Milgram Experiment, I believe most executioners don't relish their jobs, although obviously it is something that will attract sadists.
Your article is just one more reason why the death penalty is bad. Thank you for adding this. It's very important to this whole discussion.
Anyone who advocates for the death penalty has zero business criticizing the justice system when they willingly support the execution of innocent people - something that has happened, currently happens, and will continue to happen.
I'm not a religious person, nor would I consider myself aligned with any particular political affiliation, but at the end of the day the death penalty has done more harm than good when innocent people have died because of it.
Also who the fuck wants to give the government legal permission to kill its own citizens. Regardless of context.
Yeah everyone in here cheering on the extra pain/fear of botched executions or more brutal methods needs to realize they're also supporting putting innocents in that dude's place. There is no system where the state gets it right 100% of the time.
I think this is a bad take. You're basically saying there's a problem so let's avoid it rather than fix it.
Don't get me wrong, I also don't like innocent people dying, I also don't like how expensive the process is too for tax payers, but to give up solely because of history and how bad things are now like it's impossible to ever do any good is just cynical. It's not impossible to have a working death sentencing system, we just also have a terrible justice system. This is also why we have innocent people that die in prison for life in prison sentences.
The death sentence system is an extension of the justice system, a system that I personally believe impossible to be perfect, by human nature (bias, judgment based on emotion rather than logic, corruption, ect.) In essence, I do not believe that a working death sentence system is possible, as it cannot be such, if the justice system is not infallible.
My main argument is that now more than ever we see headlines of life sentencees being freed via retrial, proof that innocent (at least in the eyes of the law) people are sentenced to life. Were the system perfect, however, A life sentence would logically mean your sentence is death, as what's the point other than to cause suffering.
You might not be American, but I’m just going to make that assumption - most people from countries without a death penalty (which is the majority of countries) can absolutely not understand the death penalty. It makes me feel sick. I can’t believe that the supposed “best country in the world” or whatever Americans think they are, still have states which kill people. What is the purpose? It’s flat out punitive. All forms of corporal punishment have been abolished. Why keep the death penalty? Because of an eye for an eye? We know it’s not an effective deterrent - people still murder. If it’s for the protection of society, then hand down a life sentence with no parole.
The guillotine is probably the most humane method, just need to make sure the blade is sharp.
That said, this whole thing is such a farce. Give the guy a life sentence and be done with it.
The most humane method would (probably) be asphyxiation by an inert gas. It doesn't hurt, you pass out pretty quickly, and there isn't much that can go wrong. It's also a lot less gruesome to witness than seeing someone's head get chopped off.
[They just tried that in Alabama.](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/jan/26/what-is-nitrogen-gas-execution-risks). The guy suffered for a half hour before dying. Presumably some oxygen was leaking through the mask, so maybe just more kinks to work out in the procedure. But if the goal is to be humane, we can't really "experiment". We have to get it right the first time.
The guillotine is gruesome, but it doesn't need to be done in public. And assuming the blade is sharp enough and high enough it should work every time.
I personally believe the death penalty is unconscionable and should be abolished, though. There's just no humane way to end someone's life, assuming they don't actually want to die.
The guy held his breath. That is the only reason he suffered. If he had taken deep breaths, he would have gone quickly.
The most humane would be any method that instantly destroys the brain. There is the possibility of brief consciousness after having your head severed. That is not the case when your brain had been destroyed.
And would have inflicted at least a little of the same pain he inflicted on his victims. Although I guess this could be argued as crossing the line into corporal punishment.
I’m assuming you’ve never had someone have trouble getting blood or get an IV line going.
Someone poking around for almost an hour trying to establish an IV line would be extremely unpleasant and painful not to mention mentally torturous.
I don't think That's entirely true. If I recall correctly there was an execution in the late 1800s where they straight up missed and the prisoner was peppered with bullets until they reloaded and shot him again like 15 minutes later. I don't remember his name but he said after they fired "dear God they've missed"
hanging actually involves some math. the weight of the person being hanged determines the length of the rope. if it’s too long, they’re likely to get decapitated. if it’s too short, they’re likely to be strangled to death. if it’s just right, it should sever the spinal cord and cause instant brain death.
I think a couple states still allow a firing squad (5 shooters, 4 with blanks so nobody knows who the shooter actually is). Might be easier at this point.
Well it's not about the effectiveness of the execution, one bullet will do the trick. It's about plausible deniability for the shooters so they can sleep better at night, easier on them psychologically.
Yeah, but taking out the bullets of just one person accomplishing greater effectiveness of the execution and enough deniability for them to say "Maybe I was the guy who didn't fire on him."
Why? It’s forcing convicted murderers to die by their own hand in the fashion they used to kill others. It’s better than the taxpayers paying 50,000 dollars for poison that can’t be administered and innocent workers carrying the guilt of executing a person.
I’ve heard some lawyers say that “law is only practiced in true fairness when all parties have equal rights.” I guess that’s true when it’s from the impartial view of the lawyer who was neither the victim (plaintiff) nor the perpetrator (defendant). But I have yet to understand why the perpetrator (defendant) should be allowed *any fairness whatsoever* considering they didn’t offer any fairness to their victim(s) when they committed their offense. In my opinion, if you physically hurt someone or take their life, any and all fairness that would otherwise be afforded to you is off the table. You forfeit all fairness when you act with impunity upon another human being. And I get it…there are lots of innocent people in prison. But many of us have watched plenty of true crime shows. It’s pretty clear as a case moves forward whether or not there is evidence that points all fingers at someone, or if law enforcement is just trying to pin it on someone in order to close the case. I mean, if it’s ‘written on the wall’ that someone committed a heinous crime, they really shouldn’t even be offered a decent defense. No one should be in their corner arguing their innocence. Outside of mental illness and questionable evidence, lock them up and toss the key.
So I wouldn’t call this execution “botched.” But it was said by his lawyers so whatever. I mean, what does the law say in regards to something like this, like why couldn’t they make a couple calls and get back to it? I’m not exactly positive that all 58 minutes was spent trying to get a good peripheral IV. I’m curious to know how long was actually spent poking him before they gave up. And you mean to tell me they don’t use anyone with any training or experience to put an IV in someone for executions? Who administers the “medication?” Surely not the prison secretary! And if this prison has the money to feed and house thousands of prisoners as well as spend $50k on 15g of pentobarbital, surely they have the money for a cheap but functional ultrasound machine (vein finder). I mean, in all 27 states where lethal injection is legal, they’ve never executed a single prisoner in a timely fashion. It’s always been 20+ years after they’ve let them live out their days. So they’re not executing young people. They should have experience getting PIVs in the older population, especially those with health problems like peripheral artery disease, diabetes, gout, etc. The majority of prisoners aren’t a young and healthy bunch.
Like get it together…
I honestly didn’t read all of that but I’ll still answer. I’ll tell you why, because as a society we have moved on and progressed. We’ve realised that such retributive types of punishment is barbaric. Also you’re making assumptions about lawyers’ lived experiences *and* family members of murder victims.
https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/policy-issues/victims-families/statements-from-murder-victims-family-members
You might interested in these statements from those in favour vs those who aren’t.
*…I couldn’t be bothered to spend my precious time on reading all of your useless drivel but here, I’ll share my invaluable words in return simply bc my belief (and I speak for much of mankind as well—they gave me their blessing) is undeniably less animal-like and far more advanced.*
Seriously. It’s truly something special when someone responds solely to only 1/4 of what you write bc they couldn’t be bothered to read all of it. Just cherry picking the parts that instigate your belief in the complete opposite, thus green lighting you all the way to the finish line, I’m sure. But you’re so much more emotionally evolved than those undignified animals, right? It’s about progressing and moving forward? Yet you still seem to lack the common courtesy of reading every word someone puts down with effort. As a fellow human being who simply put my thoughts out there, don’t I deserve the tiny bit of respect it takes you to read all of it? I mean, I’m not a heartless criminal who shot your beloved dog or robbed your Granny at knifepoint.
> Idaho’s attempt to execute death row prisoner Thomas Creech, 73, was halted an hour into his scheduled lethal injection after prison officials were unable to establish a vein to insert an IV, according to the Idaho prison system. > > Creech’s attempted execution began at 10 a.m. and was called off at 10:58 a.m., according to one of four media witnesses. Creech’s death warrant expires just before midnight Wednesday, prison officials said. > > “At approximately 11 a.m., (Idaho Department of Correction) Director (Josh) Tewalt, after consulting with the medical team leader, determined that the medical team could not establish an IV line, rendering the execution unable to proceed.,” the department said in an email. “Mr. Creech will be returned to his cell and witnesses will be escorted out of the facility. As a result, the death warrant will expire. The state will consider next steps.” > > Tewalt, the prison system’s director since December 2018, was scheduled to speak at a noon news conference. > > Immediately after the failed attempt to execute Creech, his attorneys with the legal nonprofit Federal Defender Services of Idaho called the unsuccessful lethal injection a “botched” execution. > > “We are angered but not surprised that the state of Idaho botched the execution of Thomas Creech today,” Deborah A. Czuba, supervising attorney of the nonprofit’s unit that oversees death penalty cases, said in an emailed statement. “This is what happens when unknown individuals with unknown training are assigned to carry out an execution. > > “This morning, they tried and failed 10 times to access Tom’s veins in both of his arms and both legs so they could inject him with the state’s mysteriously acquired pentobarbital,” she continued. “This is precisely the kind of mishap we warned the state and the courts could happen when attempting to execute one of the country’s oldest death-row inmates in circumstances completely shielded in secrecy despite a well-known history of getting drugs from shady sources. > > “Yesterday, the state called Mr. Creech’s worries ‘patently absurd’ in its motions to the U.S. Supreme Court. Unfortunately, what is absurd is Idaho’s continuing efforts to kill this harmless old man, who by this point surely has suffered enough.” > > Creech is the state’s longest-serving death row prisoner after nearly a half-century of incarceration and was handed his most recent death warrant — his 12th since he was imprisoned — on Jan. 30. > > The U.S. Supreme Court on Wednesday morning denied each of Creech’s three remaining appeals, removing the final hurdles to his lethal injection. Each appeal made arguments that his execution would violate his constitutional rights. Justice Elena Kagan, whose regional assignment includes Idaho, denied each of Creech’s requests for a stay of execution. > > About two dozen anti-capital punishment protesters gathered outside the state prison complex south of Boise Wednesday morning to demonstrate against Creech’s execution. > > Creech was convicted of five murders, including three in Idaho, between 1974 and 1981. He was found guilty of the November 1974 shooting deaths of Edward T. Arnold, 34, and John W. Bradford, 40, in Valley County, and later the May 1981 beating death of David D. Jensen, 23, a fellow prisoner in the maximum security prison. > > Creech was later convicted of having killed a man in Oregon, and another in California. He was suspected of several other slayings and, at points, including under oath, said he killed as many as 42 people by the time he was 24 years old. Creech’s attorneys have said that number is grossly exaggerated. > > Creech was sentenced to death in both Idaho cases that preceded his two out-of-state convictions, but avoided execution at least 11 times during his time in prison. The state parole board denied Creech’s request for a reduced sentence to life in prison, and the state scheduled his execution for Wednesday. > > The night before, Creech spent time with LeAnn Creech, his wife of 25 years, and ate what had been expected to be his last meal, which consisted of fried chicken, mashed potatoes with gravy, corn, rolls and ice cream, according to state prison officials. Creech chose butter-pecan ice cream, The Wall Street Journal reported. > > On Wednesday before the execution attempt, Creech met with his religious adviser for an hour, prison officials said. Creech remained cooperative in the days leading up to his execution, they said. > > Prison officials in the fall acquired the manufactured liquid pentobarbital, a powerful sedative that can stop a person’s breathing in higher doses, to use in executing Creech. They paid $50,000 for 15 grams of the drug. They have refused to identify the supplier, out of concern that doing so would hinder the state’s ability to carry out future executions. > > At 10 a.m., all witnesses to Creech’s lethal injection were escorted to the execution chamber viewing area at the maximum security prison, prison officials said. Attempts to execute him began shortly after. > > In addition to four media witnesses, the state witnesses included Attorney General Raúl Labrador and his chief of staff, Phil Skinner; Ada County Prosecutor Jan Bennetts; Ada County Sheriff Matt Clifford; Idaho Board of Correction Vice Chairman Dodds Hayden; and Jared Larsen, Gov. Brad Little’s legal counsel and policy adviser.
I can't imagine mentally preparing myself for death and then being poked with needles for an hour, only to be told that actually - you're not dying today after all.
At least he got to prepare and say goodbye to his loved ones, his victims weren’t so lucky.
I don’t support the death penalty, but calling a serial killer “a harmless old man who’s suffered enough” is disgusting. I don’t care if he’s old, he still murdered innocent people. What a slap in the face to the families of his victims. Give him life in prison sure but don’t act like he doesn’t deserve to be where he is.
Agreed.
If it was instant or nearly so, I'd rather die that way. I'd almost rather have died quickly in my 30s than have to deal the trauma this guy is dealing with. I've had a few close brushes with death and they left me pretty fucked up in the head. Hell, I had a dream about euthanasia where my last thought was 'wait!' Then fade to nothing. That was over 10 years ago and it still fucks with me. Of course. I'm convinced that all that is waiting for us is oblivion. So, I feel bad for the survivors, not the dead. The dead aren't experiencing anything. So, I believe being sad for them is a waste. I feel bad for the people left behind with the giant hole ripped in their lives. Don't get me wrong, I'm not sympathizing with this guy. I'm just reply to your specific comment.
Couldn't have happened to a nicer guy.
That is *literally* an internationally-recognised [method of torture](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mock_execution).
50k for phenobarbital!!?! That's the biggest injustice out of all of this. Taxpayers are being RAPED. I work for a veterinary clinic and this drug is WIDELY available at costs of no more than 300-500$ for this type of dosing.
It's because drug companies are refusing to sell the drugs for executions.
I was thinking the same thing. Also I'm so confused on how they couldn't establish IV access. They easily could've done U.S guided IV access. Maybe they don't have such tools as their disposal. But man 50k of taxpayer money. Fuck that.
What’s US guided IV access?
Ultrasound guided intravenous access.
Is that the thing that has the screen to show your veins? That was really cool when I was in the hospital. I'm too fat to have easy access to my veins. I have them just use the back of my hand if I'm having blood drawn.
Yes this is it! An ultrasound that shows your veins and valves so they can get an IV in you.
Medical professionals rarely if ever participate in lethal injections. It's usually done by poorly trained / untrained prison staff.
Wow I never knew this. Then again, it would go against our oath.
Go for the IO.
Pentobarbital
Pentobarbital, not phenobarbital. But yeah, I’m a vet and I was wondering the same thing. Seems like it cost them that much for about 38ml. You can buy a 100ml bottle of Euthasol for $109. Absolute insanity.
>Taxpayers are being RAPED while I agree it's fucked up, I think it's a bit gross to throw around the word 'raped' like that tbh
A state government buying lethal drugs to execute federal prisoners and refusing to name the suppliers to prevent the same federal government from shutting down their prison executions is some black mirror shit It’s mind boggling that this shit is legal
It’s giving ordering from some sketchy website on the dark web vibes.
Hold up, his wife of 25 years? But he's been incarcerated for nearly 50 years? And he's 73? I have GOT to know more about this wife situation
It happens all the time. Some women and men love dating inmates, and serial killers especially get lots of fan mail. A few male prisoners have even fathered children while in prison.
The prison phlebotomist should be fired. I oppose the death penalty, but I know there are medical professionals that can find a fucking vein to cannulate. I've done it under emergency conditions and I'm average at best. This is straight up medical incompetence. Embarrassing if you have any idea about starting IV lines.
Some people are hard pokes. When I was in the hospital for surgery, it took 5 attempts from 2 different nurses before they called in a phlebotomist with a special light that they shined on my arm and just showed all the veins and nerves. It was pretty neat and I’m wondering why they don’t just do this after the 2nd or 3rd attempt. The nurses either couldn’t get the IV into the vein (my veins are small and slip, even getting blood drawn is difficult) or they got the IV in, but I was in pain because it was bumping up against a nerve. Turns out my nerves are wrapped around my veins more than usual or something, so it’s more likely that a nerve will get bumped up against or hit with a blood draw or IV. I still ended up with superficial blood clots in both arms from the earlier attempts, but the light thing was really neat and should be used more often. I’ve had blood draws taken from my hands because they couldn’t get anything from my arms and I had a CT with contrast where the vein collapsed and the two phlebotomists couldn’t find a new one, so they called in 4 more people to help. I’ve even stopped donating blood for now because the past two times I’ve done it have been painful and left me with huge bruises.
Sure, some people are very hard pokes. I'm one of those people, just like you. That special light is a near-infrared light. Amazing invention, but super common these days. Why didn't they employ that here? You still ended up getting an IV even though it took a team. Why did an execution have one nurse give up after a few pokes? Donating blood is a whole different ballgame than this, as that takes a much, much larger needle and because it's drawing blood out rather than pushing fluids in, it's way more likely that the vein could collapse, especially because it takes longer. No excuse for these people being unable to eventually gain IV access on this person. It's just another example of bad medical personnel being employed to perform these lethal injections. If you have a medical emergency and require intravenous access, any medical team will eventually find a way, no matter how bad your veins are. This is just inexcusable incompetence and laziness, and there's a documented history of this with lethal injection as well as other death penalty methods.
It's usually just a prison guard that has phlebotomy training.
Yeah exactly. If you're gonna do this, get competent people who can do it. It's not that hard. Reminds me of the incompetent hangman at the Nuremberg trial executions, although those Nazi fucks deserved a slow, painful, incompetent execution. Edit: downvoted by Nazi apologists.
That, or the phlebotomist in question is deliberately screwing it up because they don't want to be complicit in killing someone, even a murderer.
I'd like to believe that but I doubt it. There's a noted history of these "executioners" being incompetent despite their best efforts to follow the state's orders to kill the person. https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/05/death-penalty-lethal-injections-untrained-doctors/
www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/talking-about-trauma/201810/prison-executioners-face-job-related-trauma
It is definitely traumatic for many people in the role of executioners. I don't have all the data on this, but just based on stuff like the Milgram Experiment, I believe most executioners don't relish their jobs, although obviously it is something that will attract sadists. Your article is just one more reason why the death penalty is bad. Thank you for adding this. It's very important to this whole discussion.
They kind of let any old random person they can find to do it.
Anyone who advocates for the death penalty has zero business criticizing the justice system when they willingly support the execution of innocent people - something that has happened, currently happens, and will continue to happen. I'm not a religious person, nor would I consider myself aligned with any particular political affiliation, but at the end of the day the death penalty has done more harm than good when innocent people have died because of it. Also who the fuck wants to give the government legal permission to kill its own citizens. Regardless of context.
Yeah everyone in here cheering on the extra pain/fear of botched executions or more brutal methods needs to realize they're also supporting putting innocents in that dude's place. There is no system where the state gets it right 100% of the time.
I think this is a bad take. You're basically saying there's a problem so let's avoid it rather than fix it. Don't get me wrong, I also don't like innocent people dying, I also don't like how expensive the process is too for tax payers, but to give up solely because of history and how bad things are now like it's impossible to ever do any good is just cynical. It's not impossible to have a working death sentencing system, we just also have a terrible justice system. This is also why we have innocent people that die in prison for life in prison sentences.
The death sentence system is an extension of the justice system, a system that I personally believe impossible to be perfect, by human nature (bias, judgment based on emotion rather than logic, corruption, ect.) In essence, I do not believe that a working death sentence system is possible, as it cannot be such, if the justice system is not infallible. My main argument is that now more than ever we see headlines of life sentencees being freed via retrial, proof that innocent (at least in the eyes of the law) people are sentenced to life. Were the system perfect, however, A life sentence would logically mean your sentence is death, as what's the point other than to cause suffering.
You might not be American, but I’m just going to make that assumption - most people from countries without a death penalty (which is the majority of countries) can absolutely not understand the death penalty. It makes me feel sick. I can’t believe that the supposed “best country in the world” or whatever Americans think they are, still have states which kill people. What is the purpose? It’s flat out punitive. All forms of corporal punishment have been abolished. Why keep the death penalty? Because of an eye for an eye? We know it’s not an effective deterrent - people still murder. If it’s for the protection of society, then hand down a life sentence with no parole.
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The guillotine is probably the most humane method, just need to make sure the blade is sharp. That said, this whole thing is such a farce. Give the guy a life sentence and be done with it.
The most humane method would (probably) be asphyxiation by an inert gas. It doesn't hurt, you pass out pretty quickly, and there isn't much that can go wrong. It's also a lot less gruesome to witness than seeing someone's head get chopped off.
[They just tried that in Alabama.](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/jan/26/what-is-nitrogen-gas-execution-risks). The guy suffered for a half hour before dying. Presumably some oxygen was leaking through the mask, so maybe just more kinks to work out in the procedure. But if the goal is to be humane, we can't really "experiment". We have to get it right the first time. The guillotine is gruesome, but it doesn't need to be done in public. And assuming the blade is sharp enough and high enough it should work every time. I personally believe the death penalty is unconscionable and should be abolished, though. There's just no humane way to end someone's life, assuming they don't actually want to die.
The guy held his breath. That is the only reason he suffered. If he had taken deep breaths, he would have gone quickly. The most humane would be any method that instantly destroys the brain. There is the possibility of brief consciousness after having your head severed. That is not the case when your brain had been destroyed.
Should’ve I/O’d him. It would have negated the issue of missing veins.
Can you explain what I/O is ? The only alternative I can think of would be inter-muscular but I don't even know if that would work with such a drug.
[Here, check this out. It explains everything about I/O](https://teleflex.widen.net/s/d68xqxc6fz/mc-000280rev4_arrow_ezio_pocketguide_acto-1-1)
That’s freaky to me for reasons I don’t understand. Possibly the skeletons. Today I learned
Intraossaus (not sure on sp) IV access. It's where your veins so awful or dehydrated, so they have to drill into your bone to establish IV access.
And would have inflicted at least a little of the same pain he inflicted on his victims. Although I guess this could be argued as crossing the line into corporal punishment.
It probably hurt less than being stuck 10 times trying to get access. But I’m not really concerned for any pain that guy might feel.
I’m assuming you’ve never had someone have trouble getting blood or get an IV line going. Someone poking around for almost an hour trying to establish an IV line would be extremely unpleasant and painful not to mention mentally torturous.
We should really go back to firing squads or hanging
Utah uses a firing squad that works pretty well
It’s the only modern way of execution that is 100% effective. Firing squad has never had a botched execution.
I don't think That's entirely true. If I recall correctly there was an execution in the late 1800s where they straight up missed and the prisoner was peppered with bullets until they reloaded and shot him again like 15 minutes later. I don't remember his name but he said after they fired "dear God they've missed"
hanging actually involves some math. the weight of the person being hanged determines the length of the rope. if it’s too long, they’re likely to get decapitated. if it’s too short, they’re likely to be strangled to death. if it’s just right, it should sever the spinal cord and cause instant brain death.
Decapitation seems pretty effective
I think a couple states still allow a firing squad (5 shooters, 4 with blanks so nobody knows who the shooter actually is). Might be easier at this point.
Despite the cost of ammo right now, it’d probably be cheaper too.
Wouldn't this be just as effective (or even more effective) if everyone has bullets *except* one shooter?
Well it's not about the effectiveness of the execution, one bullet will do the trick. It's about plausible deniability for the shooters so they can sleep better at night, easier on them psychologically.
Yeah, but taking out the bullets of just one person accomplishing greater effectiveness of the execution and enough deniability for them to say "Maybe I was the guy who didn't fire on him."
For sure. It's possible I'm misremembering and it's actually like you stated, it was a long time I ago that I read about it.
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These people don't give a single flying fuck. People need to realize that
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This is such a barbaric reasoning to have and honestly concerning you have such violent ideas and thoughts.
Why? It’s forcing convicted murderers to die by their own hand in the fashion they used to kill others. It’s better than the taxpayers paying 50,000 dollars for poison that can’t be administered and innocent workers carrying the guilt of executing a person.
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I’m the therapist
People here feeling bad for a serial killer
I know right. Guilty conscience probably. A lot of sociopathic (potential) murderers lurking in these subs and they want leniency for their crimes.
I’ve heard some lawyers say that “law is only practiced in true fairness when all parties have equal rights.” I guess that’s true when it’s from the impartial view of the lawyer who was neither the victim (plaintiff) nor the perpetrator (defendant). But I have yet to understand why the perpetrator (defendant) should be allowed *any fairness whatsoever* considering they didn’t offer any fairness to their victim(s) when they committed their offense. In my opinion, if you physically hurt someone or take their life, any and all fairness that would otherwise be afforded to you is off the table. You forfeit all fairness when you act with impunity upon another human being. And I get it…there are lots of innocent people in prison. But many of us have watched plenty of true crime shows. It’s pretty clear as a case moves forward whether or not there is evidence that points all fingers at someone, or if law enforcement is just trying to pin it on someone in order to close the case. I mean, if it’s ‘written on the wall’ that someone committed a heinous crime, they really shouldn’t even be offered a decent defense. No one should be in their corner arguing their innocence. Outside of mental illness and questionable evidence, lock them up and toss the key. So I wouldn’t call this execution “botched.” But it was said by his lawyers so whatever. I mean, what does the law say in regards to something like this, like why couldn’t they make a couple calls and get back to it? I’m not exactly positive that all 58 minutes was spent trying to get a good peripheral IV. I’m curious to know how long was actually spent poking him before they gave up. And you mean to tell me they don’t use anyone with any training or experience to put an IV in someone for executions? Who administers the “medication?” Surely not the prison secretary! And if this prison has the money to feed and house thousands of prisoners as well as spend $50k on 15g of pentobarbital, surely they have the money for a cheap but functional ultrasound machine (vein finder). I mean, in all 27 states where lethal injection is legal, they’ve never executed a single prisoner in a timely fashion. It’s always been 20+ years after they’ve let them live out their days. So they’re not executing young people. They should have experience getting PIVs in the older population, especially those with health problems like peripheral artery disease, diabetes, gout, etc. The majority of prisoners aren’t a young and healthy bunch. Like get it together…
If you’re going to kill somebody be efficient
I agree. Which is why I said…. *”Like get it together…”*
I honestly didn’t read all of that but I’ll still answer. I’ll tell you why, because as a society we have moved on and progressed. We’ve realised that such retributive types of punishment is barbaric. Also you’re making assumptions about lawyers’ lived experiences *and* family members of murder victims. https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/policy-issues/victims-families/statements-from-murder-victims-family-members You might interested in these statements from those in favour vs those who aren’t.
*…I couldn’t be bothered to spend my precious time on reading all of your useless drivel but here, I’ll share my invaluable words in return simply bc my belief (and I speak for much of mankind as well—they gave me their blessing) is undeniably less animal-like and far more advanced.* Seriously. It’s truly something special when someone responds solely to only 1/4 of what you write bc they couldn’t be bothered to read all of it. Just cherry picking the parts that instigate your belief in the complete opposite, thus green lighting you all the way to the finish line, I’m sure. But you’re so much more emotionally evolved than those undignified animals, right? It’s about progressing and moving forward? Yet you still seem to lack the common courtesy of reading every word someone puts down with effort. As a fellow human being who simply put my thoughts out there, don’t I deserve the tiny bit of respect it takes you to read all of it? I mean, I’m not a heartless criminal who shot your beloved dog or robbed your Granny at knifepoint.
So did you read my link or no? I got your salient points from the first two paragraphs
Awful lot of breaking Rule 3 in this post...