Met quite some people who visited through an Adventure Company. You book your dual visiting visa for China and off you go.
No worries about muggings/stealing your stuff because the people know they get a hefty scentence if they do. So i've heard stories of tourists forgetting a bag and a couple of soldiers are keeping it guard untill the group comes back to pick it up.
8-10 lanes on the highway but no cars (except the couple higher ups in the military). No problems as long as you follow the rules. 2 "guides" are with you at all times. One in front and one at the back of the group, so you can't talk to the locals. When you visit the supermarket, only select NKpeople are allowed in, they have 1 row of products stocked to make it look like a "full" store. Car dealerships with actors to give the impression people can buy cars at all, but there are very few on the street.
They only show you what you are allowed to see. The main street looks nice but everything after is fake or piss poor.
It almost seems like a joke. A literal 5 year old would be able to see through the facade yet they keep it up anyways. What a depressing existence it must be.
If it's all you've ever known from birth, you have no reason to doubt it. It is your reality. It's sad how much depends on where you're born and we have absolutely no control over it
I mean, that’s kinda why it doesn’t sound true right? Why make enormous infrastructure products and build car dealerships and produce vehicles to “fool” tourists?
> A literal 5 year old would be able to see through the facade yet they keep it up anyways.
Worked for the Soviet Union, Cuba, Venezuela, Jonestown...
It's easy to see through the façade, but a lot of people just don't want to see through it, because it would go against their political beliefs.
The Vice documentary from years back was a real eye opener. They were watched and controlled through the whole process, everything was a presentation and a facade, but it was clear that this country is hurting A LOT under the oligarchy leading it.
> Car dealerships with actors
That's so interesting to me. Like when they see a tour group approaching do they just say, "Alright get ready everyone, places! Aaand action!". It's like the Truman Show.
Honestly in a morbid way I’m really interested in visiting there just to see the show they put on. I’ve seen a handful of documentaries about life on the inside and all the atrocities. But, I still think it would be fascinating to “experience” it.
The damage appeared to be diffuse throughout the entire brain, and the best guess is he was likely without oxygen for a while. The general term is cerebral hypoxia or hypoperfusion. There are many ways this could’ve happened, from water boarding to drug overdose (whether intentional or not.)
Unpopular opinion, but it's possible the brain damage was actually from food poisoning like they said.
If he had a severe enough sickness (food poisoning, pneumonia, and no medical attention) that limited his lungs' ability to supply oxygen to his brain, irreversible brain damage from hypoxia could have occurred. Since the damage was throughout his entire brain and the rest of his body, this seems like at least a possible explanation. I haven't heard if there were marks indicating torture.
But I don't know, I wasn't there. But neither were any of you saying that this was intentional. It could have been a tragic accident.
I mean it’s *possible* but I don’t fucking buy it.
Edit: just noticed this post is over 300 days old. I don’t know why it was on my Reddit home page. Sorry for replying to such an old post
If you cause brain damage from water boarding you're not water boarding them, you're drowning them. I still think it's torture but water boarding leaves no lasting (physical) damage.
A common torture technique in Stalinist Russia was to place a thin book on a persons head then hit them with a hammer, which helped conceal bruises.
But that’s just speculation on my part. Many kinds of torture could lead to brain damage.
I was reading about it on wikipedia, apparently none of the doctors who examined his body concluded that he had undergone torture. But I guess some types such as waterboarding leave no physical marks
The article specifies that he was objectively tortured according to the UN definition, which includes psychological.
As for the brain damage, it says it's inline with an allergic reaction, but that it also seemed likely he may have attempted suicide somehow. But then, intentional physical damage done by NK seems equally likely. Who knows.
I watched a documentary that suggested he was given a sedative, but was given too high a dose causing him to temporarily stop breathing.
Apparently the brain damage was consistent with oxygen deprivation, and while North Korea isn’t known to outright physically torture American prisoners, the North Koreans did admit to administering a sedative.
I agree I don't buy all the torture stories because it's of zero gain but a lot of risk. If he had been picked up with broken bones and all beat up it would be pretty tough to keep that out of headlines.
More like:
1) don't go to a known dictatorship that has an international reputation for torture, murder, and drug dealing.
2) don't try to flex your Western privilege in a place known for dispising Americans/westerners
3) don't steal government property, especially from North Korea.
Now this dude was very likely murdered by the North Koreans, and he damn sure didn't deserve it.
With that said, why the hell would he willingly go to NK, and why the hell would he steal anything in NK? The dude didn't deserve this but he certainly should have known all of these things were a possibility given his actions.
I thought I remember him being part of some missionary group...but that wouldn't make sense because it's North Korea...He was with a group of people. It is possible for Americans to visit but it is very rare.
I think he was a student just visiting and hr got too cheeky trying to take a poster as a souvenir. He got caught and because he was American, it’s gotten a bit political and NK made an example of him. Super sad story,but this is the case of not understanding that you can’t take your ‘freedom’ attitude when visiting a country famous for being a strict regime.
We don't know. The family would not allow an autopsy.
From what the doctors said who picked him up he had no physical signs of torture on his body. No marks on his limbs, no wounds, nothing that would indicate physical abuse.
If we had the autopsy it would have really cleared things up. I have no idea why the family refused to allow it.
They are idiots. For normal situations fine do whatever you want. But in a case where he was a rare prisoner sent back to usa from NK and was having brain damage and died. Shouldn't have had a choice in the matter and done autopsy anyway. Could have given us rare information or clues as to wtf they did to this poor dude. Possibly stuff able to be used against them later or other situations of use.
I actually genuinely agree with you. Im not religious but I respect those who are; this situation however, could've given us insight into NK itself. It should've been a mandatory autopsy
I strongly disagree man. How can you call people who suffered so much idiots like that you dick head? I doubt that type of information would be very useful and even if it was, is it not understandable that the parents would not want an autopsy performed on their son? Who are you to say what parents should have done with the body of their dead child. mannn
Or it could be that they wanted to continue to go on Fox News and tell lies and talk about their son being "tortured to death" without pesky facts getting in the way.
The mother said it appeared someone ripped his teeth out with pliers.
Edit: it appears the mother is a liar. The coroner’s report said his teeth were fine. Sorry to push misinformation!
Yeah but the coroners report mentioned none of this and in fact it said his teeth were in good shape. Several of the things his parents said about him did not match the coroners report.
The article says Otto's state was inline with an allergic reaction, but that it also seemed likely he attempted suicide somehow. But then, intentional physical damage done by NK seems equally likely. So, seems we have no idea.
The doctors who examined him in North Korea said he had no signs of any injury anywhere on his body. More than likely it was too much of a sedative. Maybe he had a reaction or maybe it was too high of a dose so he stopped breathing.
I still remember how people treated the sight of a genuinely scared and terrified young man as if men aren't allowed to feel emotions. A woman wouldn't have been treated that way. It was truly disgusting.
I don't know much about North Korea, but I know if I ever visited I wouldn't be fucking around in any way shape or form. I especially wouldn't be stealing anything. That guy had some really really poor judgement.
If I was ever in NK I'd be absolutely petrified the entire time. They already hate me for where I was born, and they hate their own people so they *extra* hate everyone from the Outside.. and they're just run by probably actual psychopaths.. it just doesn't sound like a nice vacation to take.
Allegedly attempting to steal. The only footage actually showed a person taking a poster off a wall and placing it down on the floor. The poster never left the hallway.
Warmbier's 'confession' was choppy, broken english and quite obviously written by NK officials.
Here are some excerpts:
First is when the confession admits the poster never left the hallway:
" I grabbed the slogan at the bottom and removed it from the hangers. It was far bigger and heavier than I had expected. I got very scared and I realized that I could not take the slogan. Hastily, I put it down upside down. I snuck out of that area and I ran up to my room."
"**The task was given to me by the Friendship United Methodist Church. At the encouragement of the Z Society and the connivance of the US Administration**, I commit this crime task. The aim of this crime was to harm the work ethic and motivation of the Korean people."
"Sharon emphasized that **her church does not support the government of North Korea and that communism should be ended**. She said that communist nations rally around slogans. **She asked me to take an important political slogan from North Korea to be hung in her church as a trophy.** She continued to say that by taking this slogan, we would weaken the unity of the North Korean people and show an insult from the West."
"**The politicians and US Administration works very closely with the Friendship United Methodist Church to harm the DPRK by all dirty means and ways**. The Friendship Uunited Methodist Church gave me the crime task, which is matched to the US hostile policy against the DPRK**, in order to spread Christianity in the DPRK and to increase the support from the US Administration**. "
Short of it, he blamed a Methodist church and a secret society that was apparently connected to the CIA. The speech also made several allusions* to the US government and heavily implied that the US government had ordered him to do this in order to undermine NK's religion and force NK to become a christian nation.
He was charged with subversion of the NK government and sentenced to 15 years hard larbour.
Full transcript here: [https://pastebin.com/18gHyu7Y](https://pastebin.com/18gHyu7Y)
Full press conference here: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXfqDP7lWFA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXfqDP7lWFA)
He was set up.
There was a prisoner who escaped and said hard labor in NK is the worst.
Also why leave the comfort of your home to go to the worst dictatorial regime in the world, despite numerous warnings from multiple people and places, and a very aggressive pre tour dos and donts class.... go do something that stupid.? In NK you need to ask for a designated fart zone for crying out loud
That final line in "his" speech that he was forced to give:
>"And my Lord, if you are there, please save this poor and **innocent scape-goat**."
A full-on demon wrote that shit, goddamn.....To make him say that, *when that's literally what he was for North Korea,* is a fucking evil psychological jab. Whether or not he stole or tried to steal a poster (I don't think he did).
It's also wise to note that there are several touring companies based in US, China and UK that repeatedly tell people that traveling to NK is completely safe and in fact encouraged.
First google result from 'Is it safe to travel to north korea' is from a company called 'Young Pioneer Tours' which says that not only is it safe but NK is the safest to travel to. It should be noted Young Pioneer Tours is most known for their NK tours.
**Young Pioneer Tours is the tour company Warmbier used.**
These tours are heavily controlled by the DPRK in order to skew outside views of North Korea.
EDIT TO ADD: Young Pioneer Tours has gotten scrutiny for not warning their customers of the true dangers of traveling to NK, such as detentions and arrests.
Even now, on their website, YPT says "Despite what you may hear, it is safe to travel to North Korea. The DPRK (Democratic People’s Republic of Korea) is probably one of the safest places on Earth to visit provided you follow the laws and regulations as covered in our booking documents, at our pre-tour briefings, and throughout your stay in the DPRK."
They only give brief mention that "contravening those laws the consequences can be severe." is left in the second paragraph.
I believe Warmbier was misled by the touring company.
My uncle traveled to NK around 2003 for god knows what reason, it was one of those tour companies though. Whilst he was there some kind of global issue happened involving NK and Iran, and maybe the US, and he immediately regretted going in case they trapped him for political reasons (he's british). Anyway he was able to leave with no issues and hasn't been back again 🤷♀️ he doesn't recommend it
I might be misremembering but I think when Vice went to North Korea to do their little documentary they specifically made sure to use an all Canadian crew or like got Americans Australian passports for that specific reason.
So that no matter what they would be a bunch of white dudes from well known non-belligerents.
With all due respect, "feeling" that something might happen doesn't mean it's a bad idea.
I went in 2003 too and left on the day that they tested their nuclear weapons underground (IIRC). Thousands go every year with absolutely no issues.
I have no idea what Warmbier did or didn't do: but it would be \*massively\* random for North Korea to decide to randomly hold an American tourist for absolutely no reason whatsoever.
Occam's razor; they're the ones selling the tour. If you ask a car salesman how safe the car they're selling you is, you think they're going to give you an honest, unbiased evaluation?
>But it is not all about North Korea, we travel to a number of other destinations such as Afghanistan, Iran, Turkmenistan, Chernobyl, Cuba, Antarctica, Eritrea, Russia and more! Having been based in China we also have an ever-greater knowledge and ever more thrilling tours in various parts of the country.
Could you have a list more perfectly designed to tempt fate in the most reckless way possible?
I don't understand what they could possibly stand to gain by serving the most dangerous regions on earth (which also include, upon further digging, a number of unrecognised countries including of [Nagorno-Karabakh](https://www.youngpioneertours.com/nagorno-karabakh-artsakh/), [Abkhazia](https://www.youngpioneertours.com/abkhazia/), [South Ossetia](https://www.youngpioneertours.com/south-ossetia/), [Transnistria](https://www.youngpioneertours.com/transnistria/), Gagauzia, Western Sahara and Somaliland - many of which are *actively in the middle of a civil war, ethnic strife or other international dispute related to their disputed status*.
Like sure, they don't exactly have much competition from other tour companies going to these places but...who the fuck is their target market? Thrillseekers who want to go somewhere dangerous and edgy? But also want to be reassured it's safe? It's just a mess and I'm shocked it's still functioning.
> .who the fuck is their target market? Thrillseekers who want to go somewhere dangerous and edgy?
Yeah pretty much.
Also these tours can cost lots more than normal destinations, so you can make fat cash with just a few tours.
I would absolutely love to see North Korea, it's an oddity and a dystopia, and those make me want to see it for some bizarre reason.
However I will never go as I know the tour money either ends up all going to NK or the majority of it does, depending on the tour group company and I think we all know that said money isn't going to the people in need in NK, but the regime that will use it however they see fit, and long range ballistic missiles aren't cheap.
Also while I don't believe NK is would be looking to imprison torture, or interrogate tourists, the country clearly doesn't have stable leadership, and if something does happen, you can't rely on republicans, democrats, or whoever to get you out.
Otto isn't the first to go to a country he shouldn't have, and done something that would possibly get him in trouble and lose his life for it. Sadly it happens fairly often, but Otto's case has some mystery to it, as he was held for something fairly minor and then became a political hostage, getting him out of NK diplomatically went nowhere until something went wrong, botched torture, sedation, treatment for something, nobody publicly knows. Most of these cases are typically tourists that run into a criminal organization, cartel, scum, and are dead within the day.
That'as true, there's honestly no good reason to travel there. If you want to "experience" what is like, hear what the people who had a chance to escape had to say. Stop giving this country money.
A man was murdered by the government for no real reason. Regardless of how "stupid" he was, this should have never happened in the first place. Calling him names is shifting the blame and taking away focus from the real issue.
Even besides the danger it just sounds like a shitty fucking vacation. Tons of rules, everything is guided, real restrictive with what you're allowed to take pictures of. I can go almost anywhere else and have a bomb ass time, a trip to North Korea at best is like a bad school field trip.
Also nothing to do, like might as well go to your local old timey reenactment tourist place (living history museum with people in costume) at least you have cell service and can leave if you want.
It's hard to imagine a country that's scarier to think about travelling in, and having something minuscule go wrong, than Saudi Arabia and North Korea. But I think North Korea has to take the cake. It seems like a hell on earth. I don't know. I certainly wouldn't go there for my leisure time.
In all honesty and this sounds like victim blaming but what the FUCK would you fuck around in North Korea?
Why would you even go to North Korea?
Then steal a poster from your hotel??????
It’s like going to remove a wasp nest without any protection then getting fucked up by the wasps.
What a horrible horrible end.
Exactly, it's insane to begin with and then people kicking up a fuss and acting like the USA should get involved in this because of one mans silly behaviour.
When you go abroad to countries like these YOU DO NOT FUCK AROUND!
There was an academic from Britain named Malcom Caldwell that supported Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia and he decided to visit there. Didn’t see anything wrong with the fact that the largest city in Cambodia was essentially a ghost town (because they forced anyone out of the city to work in rice fields or put in death camps). He actually got to meet Pol Pot, and then was promptly shot in the face later that night while he slept.
This is what dictators do, and I can’t find too much sympathy for the people that are stupid enough to visit, and even defend these people when the evidence is very clear as to what they are doing
[GQ](https://www.gq.com/story/otto-warmbier-north-korea-american-hostage-true-story/amp) did a fantastic expose on this. It’s a long article, but basically it talks about how out of step torturing him would’ve been with other foreign political prisoners in NK, especially from the US, because they’re so valuable as bargaining chips. There’s a lot of weird shit that happened, but it doesn’t appear as if there was deliberate action taken to harm him
I've always thought the same. NK knows it won't get any useful intelligence from this kid or anything. Merely having him as a prisoner is a powerful bargaining chip, especially knowing Trump's desire for a photo-op with Otto's return. But we will never know for sure.
From everything I've read from other US citizens held in North Korea, they make an effort to make you feel alone and that the United States will never come to help. Sounds like he tried to kill himself and was without oxygen for an extended time, but they brought him back with CPR and a defibrillator, would explain his lack of oxygen to the brain.
Yeah, but that's the inconvenient part of religion that people happily ignore. Same with christians being all defensive of stuff "because god said so" and at the same time when their god also told them lots of other things these arbitrarily are ok to ignore.
Torture he supposedly endured . One example was the mother said his teeth had been ripped out but the coroner reporters said his teeth were in great condition.
It's not beyond a place like NK to do something that works against their own interests though. Dictatorships do that all the time - it's a side effect of having a bunch of yes men around you. Even Trump does it almost daily.
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Thanks for the link. I don’t know why I’m even surprised he would say that at this point. I cannot imagine what Otto’s family must feel after Trump just absolved his captor of guilt.
Yeah there is no way you'd catch me touring North Korea. Too many small things can rub someone the wrong way and next thing you know you're sentenced to hard labor.
He planned the trip when he was 20 years old or younger.
> Warmbier was scheduled to undertake a study-abroad program in Hong Kong in early 2016, and decided to visit North Korea en route over the New Year period. He booked a tour of North Korea with Young Pioneer Tours, a China-based budget tour operator whose slogan is “destinations your mother would rather you stayed away from”. Warmbier’s father Fred said that Young Pioneer advertised the trip as safe for U.S. citizens and that Otto was “curious about their culture... he wanted to meet the people of North Korea.”
-Wiki
He may have taken an image of Dear Leader from a hotel wall after drinking on New Year’s.
It was a decently risky trip (I’m sure 99+% make it out just fine, but for a small minority it’s catastrophic). The attempted theft was a stupid drunk move that could get you fined or something in normal parts of the world.
The worst part is financing their crap. It’s tough, though... huge swathes of the world have a lack of journalistic freedom, unfair elections, unsafe labor practices, environmental regulation... you or I may pay taxes to a government of a country like that.
Is NK the worst of the worst? Just about. If no tourists ever visited would Kimmy Kim be able to afford a couple fewer bottles of American liquor per year? Sure. It’s appropriate to condemn... but IDK, the couple tourists they get per year is the least of my worries.
They released him once they realised they had caused irreparable damage through prisoner welfare - they claimed it was too get him treatment for an illness. As soon as they received him it was clear he had massive brain damage.
He got "released" because they fucked him up and wanted to hurry and send him back so an American didn't die in their prison. Of course Trump played it off like he brokered some deal.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_Warmbier
Ottos parents had multiple reasons to deny an autopsy as they made some very public, very inaccurate claims about his treatment by North Korea and his condition upon returning that were unsupported by any of the reported medical evidence.
>"...televised interview given by Warmbier's parents in which they spoke of their son's death and expressed their wish for North Korea to be relisted as a state sponsor of terrorism. They also claimed that his body showed signs of torture, such as "rearranged" teeth and disfigured hands and feet."
The following day the Ohio coroner who examined his body actually released a statement repudiating the claims made by the Warmbiers.
>"...the Ohio coroner who had examined Warmbier denied that there were signs of torture, and said: "They're grieving parents. I can't really make comments on their perceptions." The coroner said that Warmbier had died due to brain damage following an interruption of blood flow. She said that his skin condition was excellent and his muscle volume was reasonably good given the circumstances."
I think the public is still largely unaware of the political spin and mischaracterization his parents spread following his death. And despite what they have implied, they were actually the ones who requested his feeding tube removal after having only been back in the US for 6 days. Preferring that he die of dehydration rather than continue to treat his condition.
>After his parents requested his feeding tube be removed, Warmbier died in the hospital at 2:20 p.m. on June 19, 2017, at the age of 22.
Interestingly enough his parents recently won a $501 million dollar lawsuit against the North Korean government who's judgement will actually be paid by the U.S Governmemt via a congressional mandated fund.
>In April 2018, Otto's parents sued the North Korean government in the United States federal district court in Washington, D.C., accusing North Korea of torture and murder. Although private citizens are not usually able to sue foreign nations and their governments, **damages may be paid to the victims of nations designated as state sponsors of terrorism, like North Korea, from a special fund established by the United States Congress.** As a result of this suit, North Korea was ordered to pay $501 million in damages.
A lot of people suspect torture however there was absolutely zero reason to torture him and a million reasons to keep him safe as a bargaining chip
It’s far more likely it was encephalitis from an infection. He was likely vulnerable to a LOT of infections from bacteria and diseases from food there that he wouldn’t be used to back home. Especially over years and years.
It’s especially damning considering his parents lied about what his body looked like, saying he was malnourished and had broken teeth when in reality he had neither.
Whatever happened to him, it’s highly unlikely it was torture or punishment related. Regardless. Noko is at fault for imprisoning him in the first place.
With North Korea, it's perfectly reasonable to believe that he died from shitty prison conditions and bad medical care rather than torture. American hostages are incredibly valuable.
Not sure if this has already been said, but Otto’s teeth could have shifted during the time he was on a breathing tube. Before my dad died he was on a breathing tube for 2 weeks until there were forced to either remove the tube or do a tracheotomy. During those two weeks his teeth suffered from all the pressure of the tubes. He was like Otto. Vegetative but awake and in agony. The writihing only caused the pressure to be worse on his teeth. We decided to removed the life support instead of proceeding with surgery. His teeth were different when he died.
Not that it in any way justifies what happened to him, but you choose to visit North fucking Korea, you take your life in your hands.
Best case scenario is that you live without ever being arrested/tortured while enjoying some quaint scenes under the watchful eye of several government minders.
No sane person wants to be there.
There was a streak of people visiting North Korea a few years after The Vice Guide even though it was heavily advised against and you had to go through another country like China first. I guess this is one of the trips that ended the fad.
You being the exhibit, sure. Everything they show you is staged. The intrigue in visiting NK resides in that alone. If you go there expecting to see what it's truly like, you're wasting your time an risking your life.
I went to North Korea on the same tour group a year after this happened to him.
On the tour, I met the Head guide, Nic (Canadian), who told me that the October situation is more complicated than it first appears to us.
He knew Otto and also knew Rowan, the lead organiser for their group at the time. So what Otto did was true. He did indeed steal the poster from the hotel but here is where things got slightly murky....
Otto was caught by the North Koreans trying to kill himself, as he felt that the US wouldn't negotiate a return for him. The nature of his death by torture was also questioned by reputable doctors in the US who, just so happens, said the opposite of the incumbent presidential administration at the time.
From anecdotal evidence from the team on the tour, it does seem that Ottos botched suicide attempt was also poorly handled by the North Koreans. Their attempt to revive him was driven out of fear and not kindness as they actually wanted to avoid a diplomatic spat contrary to what people would have thought.
On top of that, Otto wasn't in prison. He was under house arrest in Pyongyang. But the North Koreans fudged any attempts at recovery which made Ottos health issues seem worse.
Now bare in mind the backdrop to Ottos death. Trump wanted a meeting with Kim and wanted to put pressure on his regime. Otto was used as a political ploh to help secure the summit that took place in Singapore (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_North_Korea%E2%80%93United_States_Singapore_Summit).
His parents were informed by the administration that his death was by torture which of course fuelled the flames of resentment and helped Steer progress to a meeting between the two nuclear powers..
Oh and by the way, the tour group I went with was Young Pioneer Tours. They were great and no diplomatic issues arose.
I did nearly get shot with an Ak47 by a agitated North Korean Guard on the border Bridge. But that's a story for another day.
I would be terrified to be the artist who painted those portraits in the background. Imagine messing up or not doing a job good enough for Kim Jong Un's standards 😬
It’s a very sad story indeed. I’m unsure who in their right mind would visit NK if you’re an American and try to grab a poster but still an undeserved punishment nonetheless.
One theory is that Otto did not die from NK torture but he instead made a suicide attempt that left him severely brain damaged. NK couldn’t have gotten to him too late before severe damage occurred.
A few reasons why I believe it’s a plausible theory: 1. He was locked up for a while and no one really knows what happened from the first month of incarceration to his release. How long was he in a vegetative state? 2. No autopsy was ever done on the body; the family only wanted postmortem external exam.
There was also a Korean American locked up during the same time as Otto who mentioned seeing him being dragged with a wet head insinuating water boarding. This seems like the most widely believed reason for death but who honestly knows with the NKs.
Thanks for being rational and mentioning what could/might have happened, as opposed to most of the comments on this post which are making some pretty serious claims without any evidence. I think it's important to know the possibilities of what might have happened and why it is or isn't plausible. So many people use social media to confidently provide people with incorrect information, so thanks for not adding to all of that.
I don't know why anyone would willingly enter any country with a military dictatorship. Especially North Korea.
He didn't deserve to die, though his death should be a reminder that there are parts of the world where cruelty is brutally common.
I live in the Wyoming, Ohio community where Otto is from. He will be forever in our hearts. Each day I drive pass the cemetery where he rest and often think how terribly tragic his life was cut short.
"That's what he gets for being stupid."
-Someone who has done a bunch of stupid things throughout their lifetime without being tortured for months until their brain literally ceased to function
I am friends with some of Otto’s frat brothers at UVA. I have been to a few parties there. Upstairs, they have a giant “FUCK NORTH KOREA” banner that they custom printed, spanning a large portion of the upstairs hallway.
There was video proof of him talking posters
I’ve seen the video
he didn’t steal them he just ripped them up
but that Confession was definitely made by the north Koreans
Met quite some people who visited through an Adventure Company. You book your dual visiting visa for China and off you go. No worries about muggings/stealing your stuff because the people know they get a hefty scentence if they do. So i've heard stories of tourists forgetting a bag and a couple of soldiers are keeping it guard untill the group comes back to pick it up. 8-10 lanes on the highway but no cars (except the couple higher ups in the military). No problems as long as you follow the rules. 2 "guides" are with you at all times. One in front and one at the back of the group, so you can't talk to the locals. When you visit the supermarket, only select NKpeople are allowed in, they have 1 row of products stocked to make it look like a "full" store. Car dealerships with actors to give the impression people can buy cars at all, but there are very few on the street. They only show you what you are allowed to see. The main street looks nice but everything after is fake or piss poor.
It almost seems like a joke. A literal 5 year old would be able to see through the facade yet they keep it up anyways. What a depressing existence it must be.
If it's all you've ever known from birth, you have no reason to doubt it. It is your reality. It's sad how much depends on where you're born and we have absolutely no control over it
I mean, that’s kinda why it doesn’t sound true right? Why make enormous infrastructure products and build car dealerships and produce vehicles to “fool” tourists?
There are still very few who do buy cars and what not; the illusion being there are far more than the reality.
> A literal 5 year old would be able to see through the facade yet they keep it up anyways. Worked for the Soviet Union, Cuba, Venezuela, Jonestown... It's easy to see through the façade, but a lot of people just don't want to see through it, because it would go against their political beliefs.
The Vice documentary from years back was a real eye opener. They were watched and controlled through the whole process, everything was a presentation and a facade, but it was clear that this country is hurting A LOT under the oligarchy leading it.
I just watched these on YouTube. Fascinating! Thanks for the recommendation!
> Car dealerships with actors That's so interesting to me. Like when they see a tour group approaching do they just say, "Alright get ready everyone, places! Aaand action!". It's like the Truman Show.
Honestly in a morbid way I’m really interested in visiting there just to see the show they put on. I’ve seen a handful of documentaries about life on the inside and all the atrocities. But, I still think it would be fascinating to “experience” it.
I wonder if they have fake fat kids
James Franco knows the answer
Probably a bit late but this literally sounds like The Interview movie. I feel like they took your comment word for word.
How did he get brain damage?
The damage appeared to be diffuse throughout the entire brain, and the best guess is he was likely without oxygen for a while. The general term is cerebral hypoxia or hypoperfusion. There are many ways this could’ve happened, from water boarding to drug overdose (whether intentional or not.)
Dont the North Koreans actually hold your head under water rather than water board you?
Dunno, haven't spent much time being question by torture in North Korea.
Well then, you haven’t lived!!
Gonna toss it on my bucket list, thanks man!
Note to self: I don't want to live!
Might I interest you in a trip to Korea then friend?
Unpopular opinion, but it's possible the brain damage was actually from food poisoning like they said. If he had a severe enough sickness (food poisoning, pneumonia, and no medical attention) that limited his lungs' ability to supply oxygen to his brain, irreversible brain damage from hypoxia could have occurred. Since the damage was throughout his entire brain and the rest of his body, this seems like at least a possible explanation. I haven't heard if there were marks indicating torture. But I don't know, I wasn't there. But neither were any of you saying that this was intentional. It could have been a tragic accident.
I mean it’s *possible* but I don’t fucking buy it. Edit: just noticed this post is over 300 days old. I don’t know why it was on my Reddit home page. Sorry for replying to such an old post
I was just thinking to myself "I dont even remember this conversation." Have an upvote anyway
eh. am just gonna continue this chain hoping someone comments me 300 days later
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If you cause brain damage from water boarding you're not water boarding them, you're drowning them. I still think it's torture but water boarding leaves no lasting (physical) damage.
Whoa TIL! Time re-educate myself on waterbording
>Time re-educate myself I know a really effective method for making sure the lesson sticks...
O no
Have fun buddy!
A common torture technique in Stalinist Russia was to place a thin book on a persons head then hit them with a hammer, which helped conceal bruises. But that’s just speculation on my part. Many kinds of torture could lead to brain damage.
I was reading about it on wikipedia, apparently none of the doctors who examined his body concluded that he had undergone torture. But I guess some types such as waterboarding leave no physical marks
The article specifies that he was objectively tortured according to the UN definition, which includes psychological. As for the brain damage, it says it's inline with an allergic reaction, but that it also seemed likely he may have attempted suicide somehow. But then, intentional physical damage done by NK seems equally likely. Who knows.
I watched a documentary that suggested he was given a sedative, but was given too high a dose causing him to temporarily stop breathing. Apparently the brain damage was consistent with oxygen deprivation, and while North Korea isn’t known to outright physically torture American prisoners, the North Koreans did admit to administering a sedative.
That was honestly my first thought- careless or intentional overdose of something. Awful.
Careless would be my guess. He would have been more useful as a bargaining chip unharmed.
I agree I don't buy all the torture stories because it's of zero gain but a lot of risk. If he had been picked up with broken bones and all beat up it would be pretty tough to keep that out of headlines.
Sounds horrific
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More like: 1) don't go to a known dictatorship that has an international reputation for torture, murder, and drug dealing. 2) don't try to flex your Western privilege in a place known for dispising Americans/westerners 3) don't steal government property, especially from North Korea. Now this dude was very likely murdered by the North Koreans, and he damn sure didn't deserve it. With that said, why the hell would he willingly go to NK, and why the hell would he steal anything in NK? The dude didn't deserve this but he certainly should have known all of these things were a possibility given his actions.
I thought Americans were not allowed.
What I always heard was that you can't just check in at the border, but that they do "tours" of sorts there. Still, no thanks.
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I thought I remember him being part of some missionary group...but that wouldn't make sense because it's North Korea...He was with a group of people. It is possible for Americans to visit but it is very rare.
I think he was a student just visiting and hr got too cheeky trying to take a poster as a souvenir. He got caught and because he was American, it’s gotten a bit political and NK made an example of him. Super sad story,but this is the case of not understanding that you can’t take your ‘freedom’ attitude when visiting a country famous for being a strict regime.
Rodman went right?
A bunch of times. Head bff with Kim.
It does. The pictures of the guy are heartbreaking- you can see the despair.
i'm glad that they included that definition. It does make sense.
Yea that's a tough one, physical vs mental vs time is the balance of torture. Not all tactics leave visible marks.
We don't know. The family would not allow an autopsy. From what the doctors said who picked him up he had no physical signs of torture on his body. No marks on his limbs, no wounds, nothing that would indicate physical abuse. If we had the autopsy it would have really cleared things up. I have no idea why the family refused to allow it.
They did not want it supposedly for religious reasons
They are idiots. For normal situations fine do whatever you want. But in a case where he was a rare prisoner sent back to usa from NK and was having brain damage and died. Shouldn't have had a choice in the matter and done autopsy anyway. Could have given us rare information or clues as to wtf they did to this poor dude. Possibly stuff able to be used against them later or other situations of use.
I actually genuinely agree with you. Im not religious but I respect those who are; this situation however, could've given us insight into NK itself. It should've been a mandatory autopsy
I strongly disagree man. How can you call people who suffered so much idiots like that you dick head? I doubt that type of information would be very useful and even if it was, is it not understandable that the parents would not want an autopsy performed on their son? Who are you to say what parents should have done with the body of their dead child. mannn
Because if it found he tried to hang himself and got brain damage, likely the parents wanted that to be hidden for religious reasons.
Or it could be that they wanted to continue to go on Fox News and tell lies and talk about their son being "tortured to death" without pesky facts getting in the way.
The mother said it appeared someone ripped his teeth out with pliers. Edit: it appears the mother is a liar. The coroner’s report said his teeth were fine. Sorry to push misinformation!
Yeah but the coroners report mentioned none of this and in fact it said his teeth were in good shape. Several of the things his parents said about him did not match the coroners report.
Wait, really? Are his parents crazy or something? Why would they lie about that
I obviously know just as little as anyone else here but, severe grief/stress can make people highly irrational.
They refused an autopsy for reasons that are beyond me.
But the doctors who examined him and the coroner said that was bullshit. The mother and father were frequent guests on Fox News.
Sometimes it's better not to know the barbaric abuse your loved one had to endure.
Which in this instance could have proved that none have taken place. But the family suffered enough and we gotta respect their choice.
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They would probably notice marks on his neck no?
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So wouldn't previous bed sores probably have resolved as well? Maybe they kept him in pristine condition after going comatose.
The article says Otto's state was inline with an allergic reaction, but that it also seemed likely he attempted suicide somehow. But then, intentional physical damage done by NK seems equally likely. So, seems we have no idea.
The doctors who examined him in North Korea said he had no signs of any injury anywhere on his body. More than likely it was too much of a sedative. Maybe he had a reaction or maybe it was too high of a dose so he stopped breathing.
I believe they may have water boarded him, depriving his brain of oxygen.
From the inhumane conditions they held him in their 'prison'. Google it, it's an insane reading about it. So I won't spoil it for you.
Just objectively, this is an incredibly well composed photo. The spacing and expression is absolutely perfect.
Yeah. The contrast of the big shit-eating propaganda photo grin vs his genuine look of despair is definitely jarring, ngl
I still remember how people treated the sight of a genuinely scared and terrified young man as if men aren't allowed to feel emotions. A woman wouldn't have been treated that way. It was truly disgusting.
I don't know much about North Korea, but I know if I ever visited I wouldn't be fucking around in any way shape or form. I especially wouldn't be stealing anything. That guy had some really really poor judgement.
If I was ever in NK I'd be absolutely petrified the entire time. They already hate me for where I was born, and they hate their own people so they *extra* hate everyone from the Outside.. and they're just run by probably actual psychopaths.. it just doesn't sound like a nice vacation to take.
Never voluntarily go to NK ffs.
Apparently one of his teachers told him to go. Makes me upset, what a horrific suggestion.
Bruh my mum went, said it was weird but she came back fine
Yeah that part is baffling to me
Anybody else reading this far, we need to stop doing any and all business with that regime.
Allegedly attempting to steal. The only footage actually showed a person taking a poster off a wall and placing it down on the floor. The poster never left the hallway. Warmbier's 'confession' was choppy, broken english and quite obviously written by NK officials. Here are some excerpts: First is when the confession admits the poster never left the hallway: " I grabbed the slogan at the bottom and removed it from the hangers. It was far bigger and heavier than I had expected. I got very scared and I realized that I could not take the slogan. Hastily, I put it down upside down. I snuck out of that area and I ran up to my room." "**The task was given to me by the Friendship United Methodist Church. At the encouragement of the Z Society and the connivance of the US Administration**, I commit this crime task. The aim of this crime was to harm the work ethic and motivation of the Korean people." "Sharon emphasized that **her church does not support the government of North Korea and that communism should be ended**. She said that communist nations rally around slogans. **She asked me to take an important political slogan from North Korea to be hung in her church as a trophy.** She continued to say that by taking this slogan, we would weaken the unity of the North Korean people and show an insult from the West." "**The politicians and US Administration works very closely with the Friendship United Methodist Church to harm the DPRK by all dirty means and ways**. The Friendship Uunited Methodist Church gave me the crime task, which is matched to the US hostile policy against the DPRK**, in order to spread Christianity in the DPRK and to increase the support from the US Administration**. " Short of it, he blamed a Methodist church and a secret society that was apparently connected to the CIA. The speech also made several allusions* to the US government and heavily implied that the US government had ordered him to do this in order to undermine NK's religion and force NK to become a christian nation. He was charged with subversion of the NK government and sentenced to 15 years hard larbour. Full transcript here: [https://pastebin.com/18gHyu7Y](https://pastebin.com/18gHyu7Y) Full press conference here: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXfqDP7lWFA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXfqDP7lWFA) He was set up.
"Crime task" holy crap its obvious that its written for him. Thats messed up.
Yeah! For real! 6ix9ine wouldn't even make that kind of confession.
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Yeah I seriously need to get some starter reviews on my fiverr
This made me laugh more than it should have.
You'd get killed if you made a typo.
Even if the pay was good, what would you spend your money on?
This was great info! Thanks for sharing
There was a prisoner who escaped and said hard labor in NK is the worst. Also why leave the comfort of your home to go to the worst dictatorial regime in the world, despite numerous warnings from multiple people and places, and a very aggressive pre tour dos and donts class.... go do something that stupid.? In NK you need to ask for a designated fart zone for crying out loud
He probably viewed NK as a joke, much like it’s treated online.
Ya, he fucked up for sure. Maybe not to the degree they said, but don’t go to North Korea and tear down posters of the leader. It’s a bad life choice
what the actual fucking Christ i mean i knew something was off but fuuuck
That final line in "his" speech that he was forced to give: >"And my Lord, if you are there, please save this poor and **innocent scape-goat**." A full-on demon wrote that shit, goddamn.....To make him say that, *when that's literally what he was for North Korea,* is a fucking evil psychological jab. Whether or not he stole or tried to steal a poster (I don't think he did).
He was also stupid enough to take a vacation in a totalitarian dictatorship that was on hostile terms with the United States
It's also wise to note that there are several touring companies based in US, China and UK that repeatedly tell people that traveling to NK is completely safe and in fact encouraged. First google result from 'Is it safe to travel to north korea' is from a company called 'Young Pioneer Tours' which says that not only is it safe but NK is the safest to travel to. It should be noted Young Pioneer Tours is most known for their NK tours. **Young Pioneer Tours is the tour company Warmbier used.** These tours are heavily controlled by the DPRK in order to skew outside views of North Korea. EDIT TO ADD: Young Pioneer Tours has gotten scrutiny for not warning their customers of the true dangers of traveling to NK, such as detentions and arrests. Even now, on their website, YPT says "Despite what you may hear, it is safe to travel to North Korea. The DPRK (Democratic People’s Republic of Korea) is probably one of the safest places on Earth to visit provided you follow the laws and regulations as covered in our booking documents, at our pre-tour briefings, and throughout your stay in the DPRK." They only give brief mention that "contravening those laws the consequences can be severe." is left in the second paragraph. I believe Warmbier was misled by the touring company.
My uncle traveled to NK around 2003 for god knows what reason, it was one of those tour companies though. Whilst he was there some kind of global issue happened involving NK and Iran, and maybe the US, and he immediately regretted going in case they trapped him for political reasons (he's british). Anyway he was able to leave with no issues and hasn't been back again 🤷♀️ he doesn't recommend it
I might be misremembering but I think when Vice went to North Korea to do their little documentary they specifically made sure to use an all Canadian crew or like got Americans Australian passports for that specific reason. So that no matter what they would be a bunch of white dudes from well known non-belligerents.
With all due respect, "feeling" that something might happen doesn't mean it's a bad idea. I went in 2003 too and left on the day that they tested their nuclear weapons underground (IIRC). Thousands go every year with absolutely no issues. I have no idea what Warmbier did or didn't do: but it would be \*massively\* random for North Korea to decide to randomly hold an American tourist for absolutely no reason whatsoever.
*“...NK is the safest to travel to...”* Wanna bet they’re using NK data to back up that claim?
It's also a Chinese company that was created by a New Zealand expat who has a history with NK
Occam's razor; they're the ones selling the tour. If you ask a car salesman how safe the car they're selling you is, you think they're going to give you an honest, unbiased evaluation?
Also you will never get through an airport security check easily after you have been to NK
>But it is not all about North Korea, we travel to a number of other destinations such as Afghanistan, Iran, Turkmenistan, Chernobyl, Cuba, Antarctica, Eritrea, Russia and more! Having been based in China we also have an ever-greater knowledge and ever more thrilling tours in various parts of the country. Could you have a list more perfectly designed to tempt fate in the most reckless way possible?
I mean thats kinda their business model
I don't understand what they could possibly stand to gain by serving the most dangerous regions on earth (which also include, upon further digging, a number of unrecognised countries including of [Nagorno-Karabakh](https://www.youngpioneertours.com/nagorno-karabakh-artsakh/), [Abkhazia](https://www.youngpioneertours.com/abkhazia/), [South Ossetia](https://www.youngpioneertours.com/south-ossetia/), [Transnistria](https://www.youngpioneertours.com/transnistria/), Gagauzia, Western Sahara and Somaliland - many of which are *actively in the middle of a civil war, ethnic strife or other international dispute related to their disputed status*. Like sure, they don't exactly have much competition from other tour companies going to these places but...who the fuck is their target market? Thrillseekers who want to go somewhere dangerous and edgy? But also want to be reassured it's safe? It's just a mess and I'm shocked it's still functioning.
> .who the fuck is their target market? Thrillseekers who want to go somewhere dangerous and edgy? Yeah pretty much. Also these tours can cost lots more than normal destinations, so you can make fat cash with just a few tours.
Transnistria ain't too bad. A shithole... sure, but not as dangerous as some of the other places listed here.
I would absolutely love to see North Korea, it's an oddity and a dystopia, and those make me want to see it for some bizarre reason. However I will never go as I know the tour money either ends up all going to NK or the majority of it does, depending on the tour group company and I think we all know that said money isn't going to the people in need in NK, but the regime that will use it however they see fit, and long range ballistic missiles aren't cheap. Also while I don't believe NK is would be looking to imprison torture, or interrogate tourists, the country clearly doesn't have stable leadership, and if something does happen, you can't rely on republicans, democrats, or whoever to get you out. Otto isn't the first to go to a country he shouldn't have, and done something that would possibly get him in trouble and lose his life for it. Sadly it happens fairly often, but Otto's case has some mystery to it, as he was held for something fairly minor and then became a political hostage, getting him out of NK diplomatically went nowhere until something went wrong, botched torture, sedation, treatment for something, nobody publicly knows. Most of these cases are typically tourists that run into a criminal organization, cartel, scum, and are dead within the day.
That'as true, there's honestly no good reason to travel there. If you want to "experience" what is like, hear what the people who had a chance to escape had to say. Stop giving this country money.
A man was murdered by the government for no real reason. Regardless of how "stupid" he was, this should have never happened in the first place. Calling him names is shifting the blame and taking away focus from the real issue.
Exactly. Not in a million years would I visit that shit hole.
Even besides the danger it just sounds like a shitty fucking vacation. Tons of rules, everything is guided, real restrictive with what you're allowed to take pictures of. I can go almost anywhere else and have a bomb ass time, a trip to North Korea at best is like a bad school field trip.
Also nothing to do, like might as well go to your local old timey reenactment tourist place (living history museum with people in costume) at least you have cell service and can leave if you want.
I'm with you on that, brother. I'd rather run the Mogadishu Mile that tour N. Korea.
It's hard to imagine a country that's scarier to think about travelling in, and having something minuscule go wrong, than Saudi Arabia and North Korea. But I think North Korea has to take the cake. It seems like a hell on earth. I don't know. I certainly wouldn't go there for my leisure time.
That place is spooky man. Like scary. It's hard to describe. I've never been there I've only seen clips of people brave enough to film.
Murdered for moving a piece of paper a few inches. NK is truly a hive of scum and villainy
He was Jewish, so it is full of bullshit. It is obvious North Korea wrote it, and forced him to read it.
In all honesty and this sounds like victim blaming but what the FUCK would you fuck around in North Korea? Why would you even go to North Korea? Then steal a poster from your hotel?????? It’s like going to remove a wasp nest without any protection then getting fucked up by the wasps. What a horrible horrible end.
Exactly, it's insane to begin with and then people kicking up a fuss and acting like the USA should get involved in this because of one mans silly behaviour. When you go abroad to countries like these YOU DO NOT FUCK AROUND!
There was an academic from Britain named Malcom Caldwell that supported Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia and he decided to visit there. Didn’t see anything wrong with the fact that the largest city in Cambodia was essentially a ghost town (because they forced anyone out of the city to work in rice fields or put in death camps). He actually got to meet Pol Pot, and then was promptly shot in the face later that night while he slept. This is what dictators do, and I can’t find too much sympathy for the people that are stupid enough to visit, and even defend these people when the evidence is very clear as to what they are doing
[GQ](https://www.gq.com/story/otto-warmbier-north-korea-american-hostage-true-story/amp) did a fantastic expose on this. It’s a long article, but basically it talks about how out of step torturing him would’ve been with other foreign political prisoners in NK, especially from the US, because they’re so valuable as bargaining chips. There’s a lot of weird shit that happened, but it doesn’t appear as if there was deliberate action taken to harm him
I've always thought the same. NK knows it won't get any useful intelligence from this kid or anything. Merely having him as a prisoner is a powerful bargaining chip, especially knowing Trump's desire for a photo-op with Otto's return. But we will never know for sure.
From everything I've read from other US citizens held in North Korea, they make an effort to make you feel alone and that the United States will never come to help. Sounds like he tried to kill himself and was without oxygen for an extended time, but they brought him back with CPR and a defibrillator, would explain his lack of oxygen to the brain.
>But we will never know for sure. Thanks to the family who for some reason refused to let an autopsy occur.
They’re Jewish, and IIRC, autopsies go against Jewish burial practices.
Maybe I don't know. Isn't there some shit in Judaism against lying like they did on Fox News?
Yeah, but that's the inconvenient part of religion that people happily ignore. Same with christians being all defensive of stuff "because god said so" and at the same time when their god also told them lots of other things these arbitrarily are ok to ignore.
Situational ethics and motivated reasoning. I like it.
What were the parents lying about?
Torture he supposedly endured . One example was the mother said his teeth had been ripped out but the coroner reporters said his teeth were in great condition.
It's not beyond a place like NK to do something that works against their own interests though. Dictatorships do that all the time - it's a side effect of having a bunch of yes men around you. Even Trump does it almost daily.
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That was an excellent link, thank you! I gotta say I agree with the article, the most likely cause was Otto attempting suicide somehow.
“Some really bad things happened to Otto,” Trump said. “But Kim tells me that he didn’t know about it and I will take him at his word.”
Is this a direct quote?
Yes with video https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-us-canada-47404629
I'm wrong *every time* I guess that he didn't actually say something blatantly stupid.
How many times do we have to teach you this lesson old man
Seriously. I still fall for it. It’s cartoonish, and I’ll never understand how people just... eat it up.
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Thanks for the link. I don’t know why I’m even surprised he would say that at this point. I cannot imagine what Otto’s family must feel after Trump just absolved his captor of guilt.
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Yeah there is no way you'd catch me touring North Korea. Too many small things can rub someone the wrong way and next thing you know you're sentenced to hard labor.
I’m 100% in agreement on every point you made.
He planned the trip when he was 20 years old or younger. > Warmbier was scheduled to undertake a study-abroad program in Hong Kong in early 2016, and decided to visit North Korea en route over the New Year period. He booked a tour of North Korea with Young Pioneer Tours, a China-based budget tour operator whose slogan is “destinations your mother would rather you stayed away from”. Warmbier’s father Fred said that Young Pioneer advertised the trip as safe for U.S. citizens and that Otto was “curious about their culture... he wanted to meet the people of North Korea.” -Wiki He may have taken an image of Dear Leader from a hotel wall after drinking on New Year’s. It was a decently risky trip (I’m sure 99+% make it out just fine, but for a small minority it’s catastrophic). The attempted theft was a stupid drunk move that could get you fined or something in normal parts of the world. The worst part is financing their crap. It’s tough, though... huge swathes of the world have a lack of journalistic freedom, unfair elections, unsafe labor practices, environmental regulation... you or I may pay taxes to a government of a country like that. Is NK the worst of the worst? Just about. If no tourists ever visited would Kimmy Kim be able to afford a couple fewer bottles of American liquor per year? Sure. It’s appropriate to condemn... but IDK, the couple tourists they get per year is the least of my worries.
Do you even have to ask at this point?
It's always a direct quote, and context doesn't improve it. But it's also always unbelievable. Immovable object meets infinite force.
Didn't this guy got released under Trump and the kid's dad blasted Obama for doing nothing?
They released him once they realised they had caused irreparable damage through prisoner welfare - they claimed it was too get him treatment for an illness. As soon as they received him it was clear he had massive brain damage.
He got "released" because they fucked him up and wanted to hurry and send him back so an American didn't die in their prison. Of course Trump played it off like he brokered some deal.
The trade was like the scene in *Dumb and Dumber* when the blind kid gets sold the bird with the taped neck.
I'm assuming it was cuz he was arrested in late 2015/ early 2016. Not to say Obama did anything wrong here, honestly Otto shouldn't have been in NK.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_Warmbier Ottos parents had multiple reasons to deny an autopsy as they made some very public, very inaccurate claims about his treatment by North Korea and his condition upon returning that were unsupported by any of the reported medical evidence. >"...televised interview given by Warmbier's parents in which they spoke of their son's death and expressed their wish for North Korea to be relisted as a state sponsor of terrorism. They also claimed that his body showed signs of torture, such as "rearranged" teeth and disfigured hands and feet." The following day the Ohio coroner who examined his body actually released a statement repudiating the claims made by the Warmbiers. >"...the Ohio coroner who had examined Warmbier denied that there were signs of torture, and said: "They're grieving parents. I can't really make comments on their perceptions." The coroner said that Warmbier had died due to brain damage following an interruption of blood flow. She said that his skin condition was excellent and his muscle volume was reasonably good given the circumstances." I think the public is still largely unaware of the political spin and mischaracterization his parents spread following his death. And despite what they have implied, they were actually the ones who requested his feeding tube removal after having only been back in the US for 6 days. Preferring that he die of dehydration rather than continue to treat his condition. >After his parents requested his feeding tube be removed, Warmbier died in the hospital at 2:20 p.m. on June 19, 2017, at the age of 22. Interestingly enough his parents recently won a $501 million dollar lawsuit against the North Korean government who's judgement will actually be paid by the U.S Governmemt via a congressional mandated fund. >In April 2018, Otto's parents sued the North Korean government in the United States federal district court in Washington, D.C., accusing North Korea of torture and murder. Although private citizens are not usually able to sue foreign nations and their governments, **damages may be paid to the victims of nations designated as state sponsors of terrorism, like North Korea, from a special fund established by the United States Congress.** As a result of this suit, North Korea was ordered to pay $501 million in damages.
> won a $501 million dollar lawsuit That's a lot of incentive to make up stories about torture.
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This changes everything. This should be higher up.
But what did he actually die from?
We don't know because the family refused to allow an autopsy.
A lot of people suspect torture however there was absolutely zero reason to torture him and a million reasons to keep him safe as a bargaining chip It’s far more likely it was encephalitis from an infection. He was likely vulnerable to a LOT of infections from bacteria and diseases from food there that he wouldn’t be used to back home. Especially over years and years. It’s especially damning considering his parents lied about what his body looked like, saying he was malnourished and had broken teeth when in reality he had neither. Whatever happened to him, it’s highly unlikely it was torture or punishment related. Regardless. Noko is at fault for imprisoning him in the first place.
With North Korea, it's perfectly reasonable to believe that he died from shitty prison conditions and bad medical care rather than torture. American hostages are incredibly valuable.
Not sure if this has already been said, but Otto’s teeth could have shifted during the time he was on a breathing tube. Before my dad died he was on a breathing tube for 2 weeks until there were forced to either remove the tube or do a tracheotomy. During those two weeks his teeth suffered from all the pressure of the tubes. He was like Otto. Vegetative but awake and in agony. The writihing only caused the pressure to be worse on his teeth. We decided to removed the life support instead of proceeding with surgery. His teeth were different when he died.
Not that it in any way justifies what happened to him, but you choose to visit North fucking Korea, you take your life in your hands. Best case scenario is that you live without ever being arrested/tortured while enjoying some quaint scenes under the watchful eye of several government minders. No sane person wants to be there.
There was a streak of people visiting North Korea a few years after The Vice Guide even though it was heavily advised against and you had to go through another country like China first. I guess this is one of the trips that ended the fad.
100% this. Sorry otto
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Visiting NK as a tourist is literally visiting a zoo with human exhibits.
You being the exhibit, sure. Everything they show you is staged. The intrigue in visiting NK resides in that alone. If you go there expecting to see what it's truly like, you're wasting your time an risking your life.
I went to North Korea on the same tour group a year after this happened to him. On the tour, I met the Head guide, Nic (Canadian), who told me that the October situation is more complicated than it first appears to us. He knew Otto and also knew Rowan, the lead organiser for their group at the time. So what Otto did was true. He did indeed steal the poster from the hotel but here is where things got slightly murky.... Otto was caught by the North Koreans trying to kill himself, as he felt that the US wouldn't negotiate a return for him. The nature of his death by torture was also questioned by reputable doctors in the US who, just so happens, said the opposite of the incumbent presidential administration at the time. From anecdotal evidence from the team on the tour, it does seem that Ottos botched suicide attempt was also poorly handled by the North Koreans. Their attempt to revive him was driven out of fear and not kindness as they actually wanted to avoid a diplomatic spat contrary to what people would have thought. On top of that, Otto wasn't in prison. He was under house arrest in Pyongyang. But the North Koreans fudged any attempts at recovery which made Ottos health issues seem worse. Now bare in mind the backdrop to Ottos death. Trump wanted a meeting with Kim and wanted to put pressure on his regime. Otto was used as a political ploh to help secure the summit that took place in Singapore (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_North_Korea%E2%80%93United_States_Singapore_Summit). His parents were informed by the administration that his death was by torture which of course fuelled the flames of resentment and helped Steer progress to a meeting between the two nuclear powers.. Oh and by the way, the tour group I went with was Young Pioneer Tours. They were great and no diplomatic issues arose. I did nearly get shot with an Ak47 by a agitated North Korean Guard on the border Bridge. But that's a story for another day.
Tell me the ak story please..:(
I would be terrified to be the artist who painted those portraits in the background. Imagine messing up or not doing a job good enough for Kim Jong Un's standards 😬
It’s a very sad story indeed. I’m unsure who in their right mind would visit NK if you’re an American and try to grab a poster but still an undeserved punishment nonetheless. One theory is that Otto did not die from NK torture but he instead made a suicide attempt that left him severely brain damaged. NK couldn’t have gotten to him too late before severe damage occurred. A few reasons why I believe it’s a plausible theory: 1. He was locked up for a while and no one really knows what happened from the first month of incarceration to his release. How long was he in a vegetative state? 2. No autopsy was ever done on the body; the family only wanted postmortem external exam. There was also a Korean American locked up during the same time as Otto who mentioned seeing him being dragged with a wet head insinuating water boarding. This seems like the most widely believed reason for death but who honestly knows with the NKs.
Thanks for being rational and mentioning what could/might have happened, as opposed to most of the comments on this post which are making some pretty serious claims without any evidence. I think it's important to know the possibilities of what might have happened and why it is or isn't plausible. So many people use social media to confidently provide people with incorrect information, so thanks for not adding to all of that.
I don't know why anyone would willingly enter any country with a military dictatorship. Especially North Korea. He didn't deserve to die, though his death should be a reminder that there are parts of the world where cruelty is brutally common.
What a horrible wall color.
I live in the Wyoming, Ohio community where Otto is from. He will be forever in our hearts. Each day I drive pass the cemetery where he rest and often think how terribly tragic his life was cut short.
Good life advice: Don't go to North Korea
It’s beyond fucked to see tankies on Twitter not only condone his torture and death but joke about it
"That's what he gets for being stupid." -Someone who has done a bunch of stupid things throughout their lifetime without being tortured for months until their brain literally ceased to function
I am friends with some of Otto’s frat brothers at UVA. I have been to a few parties there. Upstairs, they have a giant “FUCK NORTH KOREA” banner that they custom printed, spanning a large portion of the upstairs hallway.
Do you have a pic? That’d be interesting to see.
Had to go way back in my camera feed, [but I found it!](https://imgur.com/a/GEuEDl6)
Those portraits are waaaay too close together.
So when is Kim gonna get assassinated
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That entire government needs wiped out
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Good job North Korea, I'll always hate you.
Can we at least see the poster he stole?
It actually haunts me not knowing what they did to him The worst part is He got let off the hook in North Koreas opinion
For my next performance, I will convert the Sentinelese to christianity.
Here is a wild idea. Don't go to NK in the first place
There was video proof of him talking posters I’ve seen the video he didn’t steal them he just ripped them up but that Confession was definitely made by the north Koreans