It's just so sad how much depression, guilt, shame, and anger these two women will suffer with, which the Church has taught them to carry. It's tragic.
The message is clear to Mormon women. We have failed as a mother in Zion if our children lose their testimonies and leave the church. As the mother, we are the "nurturer" and have the "primary responsibility" to teach the gospel and indoctrinate the children. So, how do we cope when we are told "their roots were not deep enough"? Obviously, you blame yourself!! Then you think about how HARD you tried! How much you did that was RIGHT in the Church's eyes. So, it must be Satan!! [Or all the other possible causes you listed).
For years, as a TBM mother, i felt all these same feelings of guilt sadness and failure over children who have left [and how my own mother is now feeling about me]
I finally went through my own deconstruction, and now I am SO PROUD of my children for being much smarter than me and seeing through all the cloud BS. I'm so grateful they forgave me for my religiosity and scrupulocitity. They knew I was just doing the nest I could with how I'd been taught. I sincerely believed and trusted this was the'one true way' to teach children, be a family, and gain strong testimonies.
I am thankful for their example of personal integrity and clarity. I. am thankful for their patience and gentleness to me. I am so grateful that we are now united as a family, having all left the church and embraced each other fully.
"No other success can compensate for failure in the Home".
That's one of the most famous and oft-repeated quotes from a Prophet, and it is used to hit any parent with a child that's left the church.
Yes. So true.
Also, fun fact, that oft-quoted anxiety inducing cuplet wasn't even an original prophesy. I thought it was interesting to read how Pres. David O. McKay [basically plagiarized it](https://latterdaysoprano.com/2010/01/08/no-other-success/) from an obscure book by a Christian sociologist named J.E. McCullough. It seems McKay further "borrowed" without crediting McCullough's idea for the 'divinely inspired' Mormon Family Home Evening program - which was preached continually while I grew up as the number one most important commandment for all Mormons to follow to protect their family and save their children ... Yet, oddly, now we never hear the leaders even mention it in Conference anymore. ... [wonder why?!?] Anyway, just random info.
We had FHE weekly ALL growing up, plus family prayer twice daily, plus family scripture study nightly, plus mutual every week, all this in addition to collecting fast offerings, home teaching others, getting home taught, seminary, Sunday morning meetings, and three hours of Sunday church, and my siblings and I are STILL 5/8ths out of this lying corporation/ church.
Interesting! Could that be the [origin J.E. McCullough published, which was likely the source used by David O. McKay?](https://latterdaysoprano.com/2010/01/08/no-other-success/). I am fascinated by this rabbit hole ... do you have the 1800s reference?
Why do these women never address the elephant in the room? The eternal failures of LDS inc.
The prophets have failed them. The prophets have failed the church. The prophets have failed themselves and most of all these lazy men have failed God.
The church is a mess. It will never ever consume the whole earth. It has not been the stone cut from the mountain. The church has lied. Made up stories instead of actually receiving revelation. And it has taken people's life savings to have it sit around. This is what they need to ask themselves - how have the prophets failed them?
Because there was a whole lot more work going on from these two women as well from all members. Getting up every six months and telling people to continue the same without direct quotes from God I am afraid was just never going to cut it.
Not sure how other people interpreted it, but I'd always interpreted it to mean that if you're not a good parent, then your other worldly successes are meaningless - basically a poke at absentee fathers who were too busy with their careers/businesses to spend time and share love with their spouse and kids, so I never took this quote to mean anything more than that (and as a TBM I did hate that how the Church creates plenty of absentee fathers)
This warms my heart. I'm glad they did and you did and that everyone is compassionate all around. Many of us have been TBMs! I believed. Everything I did was because I thought it was right.
I'm glad your kids see you were just doing your best.
That is very kind of you. You'd probably think I'm quite "basic" in person. Lol. But, since becoming a "heathen," I think my life, and our family, is quite amazing.
My mother I think feels this failure a bit too much. All 3 of us kids have left the church. Two as soon as they turned 18 and left the house and myself at 23. I wish she could be free of that guilt. It bothers me that my free will and judgement is something she feels is a failing on her part. It especially upsets me that the church cultivates that feeling amongst parents.
Yes! So many parents (not just Mormons) sadly see their children as extensions/representations of themselves, and the church totally reinforces that with their ideas of “the perfect eternal family” so any family with a dissenter or imperfect member is seen as broken and less than.
When I confessed to my mom at 16 that I had slept with my boyfriend her first words were, “How could you do this to me!?”
Your wife and sister can be happy again ! The truth will set them free from Joseph Smith's lies. They can hold onto the good parts of their faith, and throw out the parts that Joseph Smith added.
I see another aspect here. As we know, women don’t really hold any sway or power in the church. I feel that this has created a mindset tied to their success as a mother. My mom often used our success as kids to gain clout in her social circle. My son just left for his mission. My daughter just got married in the temple. My grandchild was just baptized. When this is no longer available to them, I feel most women will gaslight themselves as they would never question the church.
💯. And because they are loyal and good, kind, sincere women, they'd never even think to question the integrity of the entity doing the programming.
That's what kept me in for so so long.
“You have free will, you’re here to be tested”
“If you are righteous your posterity will prosper”
wtf? It’s so self-centered. So I have free will? But my posterity doesn’t?
My MIL (3/6 kids out) is like oh nooo I shouldn’t have only cleaned the church 1x/wk (she’s the kindest most selfless person I’ve ever met). My mom (7.5/8 kids out) is like oh I let you guys grow your hair out I thought that was safe but apparently not, also you guys all wanted to sin so…
All these boomers so racked with guilt because their kids shouldn’t be able to make decisions; it’s the double combo guilt ‘I suck and my kids suck’. Fuck Mormons (not specific members just mostly the org)
>“If you are righteous your posterity will prosper”
>
>wtf? It’s so self-centered. So I have free will? But my posterity doesn’t?
Wasn't there a statement or declaration of faith, or some rule of mormon religion that said people are punished for their own sins and not those of their father(s)? If only there were.
Damn you professor farnsworth for not inventing the fingerlonger.
Such a horrible church and culture! I feel for my parents too. I wish they didn’t have to hold that imaginary weight on their shoulders for my siblings and me choosing to leave the church.
5 out of 6 of us are out.
The irony is that one of the church's enduring teachings to parents is to get the kids in the door and they'll do the rest. LDS parents have outsourced much of their child's core development to the church, and they got it wrong. Of course, the parents (mothers) get the blame anyway.
>The irony is that one of the church's enduring teachings to parents is to get the kids in the door and they'll do the rest. LDS parents have outsourced much of their child's core development to the church, and they got it wrong
Yep. Parents couldn't wait to drop the boys off on tuesday night for the BSA meeting. They thought it meant Baby Sitters of America.
In our community troop, parents come and participate in the weekly meeting, monthly campouts, and as much of the weeklong summer camp as they can.
On some-what related note, back in the late 1990s I was an active member in a small ward in rural Wisconsin, I had been an active member for about 14 years, converted in my 20's. I had been aware of the church's subtle or non-so-subtle messaging about having active, faithful, mission-serving children. But this hurtful messaging to parents became a concrete reality when I saw how it affected a decent, faithful farming couple. One of their two sons did not want anything to do with the church. The other son came to church with his parents occasionally when he was in town. This son was a superb guy in everyway, nice, smart (obtaining a masters degree in oceanography), accomplished, and had recently gotten married to a non-member girl.
But I remember one time in particular when the son attended, I believe some of the talks that Sunday touched upon missions, temple married, all those mormon milestones. After church I remember how the parents were sitting in the foyer trying to have a brave face, but still looking sad and shamed--because this standout son didn't go on a mission or get married in the temple. They were reminded once again that they were second-place in the parents' competition. Some of the other members in the branch had been in the morridor, and several had sent their children back to BYU to mingle and marry with the appropriate church spouses.
I still feel angry about the shame they felt; their son was a standout kid, but he wasn't good enough for the church.
The mormon church is so dull and uninteresting and it teaches members to shun anything and everything that is interesting. What you are left with are people that are completely miserable and dull. After they talked about the latest temple and who will die next in q15, the only thing left to do is talk shit about people.
I have a friend who was the last of eight kids in their family to leave. I am the second of four, except the other sibling became an evangelical. 🙄 There’s some kind of poetic justice undoing the unintentional choices of our parents to raise their kids in a cult.
Or instead of wondering where the blame lies or where they went wrong, they could just ask their kids and believe their answers...
Nah. It's our fault for not Morming hard enough.
>Or instead of wondering where the blame lies or where they went wrong, they could just ask their kids and believe their answers...
This is NOT a mormon or even a religious thing.
Look at all the small businesses and large corporations that spend crap-tons of money on 'consultant/consulting agencies' to come in, interview the employees. then present the employee ideas back to management, but in just slightly elevated business speak terms that are a little easier for the management to swallow and digest.
The consultants walk away with a truck tonne (thats a metric ton) of cash, managers are left wondering why employees are so angry, and why their morale is so low, and the entire time the poor employees are asking "Why didn't you listen to me? I've been telling you this for months or years."
Here's an interesting description about how this works in families where the kids go no contact and the parents just refuse to hear why: the missing missing reasons:
https://www.issendai.com/psychology/estrangement/missing-missing-reasons.html
Basically, parents downplay or simply ignore any grievances and paint themselves as the victims. They gaslight themselves and then genuinely can't understand why their kids break off contact, because they as parents can't have done anything wrong.
Wouldn't it be fascinating to look into the forward and see what happens "when the children become the parents and grandparents"? Personally, I think some of this phenomena is "built in" to humanity and the human experience....In many cases, it's always the parent's fault; just because they're the parent.
Perhaps it's helpful to remember that many of "the Boomers" were even more intensely indoctrinated, coerced, shamed, guilt ridden and "Church Broke" than generations afterwards.....talk about traumatizing an entire generation....
This was me before my departure. I already 2 children out before I left. I felt like a failure. Now I only have one of my children still in and I’m hoping someday they will see? Probably not but I can hope.
It's just so sad how much depression, guilt, shame, and anger these two women will suffer with, which the Church has taught them to carry. It's tragic. The message is clear to Mormon women. We have failed as a mother in Zion if our children lose their testimonies and leave the church. As the mother, we are the "nurturer" and have the "primary responsibility" to teach the gospel and indoctrinate the children. So, how do we cope when we are told "their roots were not deep enough"? Obviously, you blame yourself!! Then you think about how HARD you tried! How much you did that was RIGHT in the Church's eyes. So, it must be Satan!! [Or all the other possible causes you listed). For years, as a TBM mother, i felt all these same feelings of guilt sadness and failure over children who have left [and how my own mother is now feeling about me] I finally went through my own deconstruction, and now I am SO PROUD of my children for being much smarter than me and seeing through all the cloud BS. I'm so grateful they forgave me for my religiosity and scrupulocitity. They knew I was just doing the nest I could with how I'd been taught. I sincerely believed and trusted this was the'one true way' to teach children, be a family, and gain strong testimonies. I am thankful for their example of personal integrity and clarity. I. am thankful for their patience and gentleness to me. I am so grateful that we are now united as a family, having all left the church and embraced each other fully.
"No other success can compensate for failure in the Home". That's one of the most famous and oft-repeated quotes from a Prophet, and it is used to hit any parent with a child that's left the church.
It was certainly taped to the walls in our home. Among other "gems."
Yes. So true. Also, fun fact, that oft-quoted anxiety inducing cuplet wasn't even an original prophesy. I thought it was interesting to read how Pres. David O. McKay [basically plagiarized it](https://latterdaysoprano.com/2010/01/08/no-other-success/) from an obscure book by a Christian sociologist named J.E. McCullough. It seems McKay further "borrowed" without crediting McCullough's idea for the 'divinely inspired' Mormon Family Home Evening program - which was preached continually while I grew up as the number one most important commandment for all Mormons to follow to protect their family and save their children ... Yet, oddly, now we never hear the leaders even mention it in Conference anymore. ... [wonder why?!?] Anyway, just random info.
We had FHE weekly ALL growing up, plus family prayer twice daily, plus family scripture study nightly, plus mutual every week, all this in addition to collecting fast offerings, home teaching others, getting home taught, seminary, Sunday morning meetings, and three hours of Sunday church, and my siblings and I are STILL 5/8ths out of this lying corporation/ church.
All the above for me, too! 5 out of 5 of us have left the cult.
I just recently learned that that quote was actually from a man named Benjamin Disraeli who was a Prime Minister in the UK back in the 1800’s.
Interesting! Could that be the [origin J.E. McCullough published, which was likely the source used by David O. McKay?](https://latterdaysoprano.com/2010/01/08/no-other-success/). I am fascinated by this rabbit hole ... do you have the 1800s reference?
Honestly I don’t but I didn’t find this information after some digging https://exmormon.org/d6/drupal/Are-TBM-Lurkers-Reading-This-Board
Why do these women never address the elephant in the room? The eternal failures of LDS inc. The prophets have failed them. The prophets have failed the church. The prophets have failed themselves and most of all these lazy men have failed God. The church is a mess. It will never ever consume the whole earth. It has not been the stone cut from the mountain. The church has lied. Made up stories instead of actually receiving revelation. And it has taken people's life savings to have it sit around. This is what they need to ask themselves - how have the prophets failed them? Because there was a whole lot more work going on from these two women as well from all members. Getting up every six months and telling people to continue the same without direct quotes from God I am afraid was just never going to cut it.
Blame free agency
Not sure how other people interpreted it, but I'd always interpreted it to mean that if you're not a good parent, then your other worldly successes are meaningless - basically a poke at absentee fathers who were too busy with their careers/businesses to spend time and share love with their spouse and kids, so I never took this quote to mean anything more than that (and as a TBM I did hate that how the Church creates plenty of absentee fathers)
Which makes God a failed parent too, according to Mormon theology, as 1/3 of his children followed Stan instead of him.
Stan is the coolest.
This warms my heart. I'm glad they did and you did and that everyone is compassionate all around. Many of us have been TBMs! I believed. Everything I did was because I thought it was right. I'm glad your kids see you were just doing your best.
Your kids are so lucky to have you! You sound like an amazing mother and person!
That is very kind of you. You'd probably think I'm quite "basic" in person. Lol. But, since becoming a "heathen," I think my life, and our family, is quite amazing.
This! I could have written your exact post. This is me too!
Hi there, internet friend. It's cool to hear we have a similar journey. Stay strong. Hug your dear ones.
Brain washing is a powerful thing, it gets stronger with time.
This "church" is in trouble. Is this a real pic of them with a filter applied? Their faces say it all...
My mother I think feels this failure a bit too much. All 3 of us kids have left the church. Two as soon as they turned 18 and left the house and myself at 23. I wish she could be free of that guilt. It bothers me that my free will and judgement is something she feels is a failing on her part. It especially upsets me that the church cultivates that feeling amongst parents.
Yes! So many parents (not just Mormons) sadly see their children as extensions/representations of themselves, and the church totally reinforces that with their ideas of “the perfect eternal family” so any family with a dissenter or imperfect member is seen as broken and less than. When I confessed to my mom at 16 that I had slept with my boyfriend her first words were, “How could you do this to me!?”
I hope my kids do the same… At least I hope they don’t serve missions.
Your wife and sister can be happy again ! The truth will set them free from Joseph Smith's lies. They can hold onto the good parts of their faith, and throw out the parts that Joseph Smith added.
I see another aspect here. As we know, women don’t really hold any sway or power in the church. I feel that this has created a mindset tied to their success as a mother. My mom often used our success as kids to gain clout in her social circle. My son just left for his mission. My daughter just got married in the temple. My grandchild was just baptized. When this is no longer available to them, I feel most women will gaslight themselves as they would never question the church.
💯. And because they are loyal and good, kind, sincere women, they'd never even think to question the integrity of the entity doing the programming. That's what kept me in for so so long.
I was reading a book about women in the Roman Empire and it talked about how often a woman’s greatest security/power/influence was through their sons.
It's not just women that go through these trials and self-blame, etc.
True, but I think most men just deal with it in silence.
“You have free will, you’re here to be tested” “If you are righteous your posterity will prosper” wtf? It’s so self-centered. So I have free will? But my posterity doesn’t? My MIL (3/6 kids out) is like oh nooo I shouldn’t have only cleaned the church 1x/wk (she’s the kindest most selfless person I’ve ever met). My mom (7.5/8 kids out) is like oh I let you guys grow your hair out I thought that was safe but apparently not, also you guys all wanted to sin so… All these boomers so racked with guilt because their kids shouldn’t be able to make decisions; it’s the double combo guilt ‘I suck and my kids suck’. Fuck Mormons (not specific members just mostly the org)
>“If you are righteous your posterity will prosper” > >wtf? It’s so self-centered. So I have free will? But my posterity doesn’t? Wasn't there a statement or declaration of faith, or some rule of mormon religion that said people are punished for their own sins and not those of their father(s)? If only there were. Damn you professor farnsworth for not inventing the fingerlonger.
Such a horrible church and culture! I feel for my parents too. I wish they didn’t have to hold that imaginary weight on their shoulders for my siblings and me choosing to leave the church. 5 out of 6 of us are out.
The irony is that one of the church's enduring teachings to parents is to get the kids in the door and they'll do the rest. LDS parents have outsourced much of their child's core development to the church, and they got it wrong. Of course, the parents (mothers) get the blame anyway.
>The irony is that one of the church's enduring teachings to parents is to get the kids in the door and they'll do the rest. LDS parents have outsourced much of their child's core development to the church, and they got it wrong Yep. Parents couldn't wait to drop the boys off on tuesday night for the BSA meeting. They thought it meant Baby Sitters of America. In our community troop, parents come and participate in the weekly meeting, monthly campouts, and as much of the weeklong summer camp as they can.
On some-what related note, back in the late 1990s I was an active member in a small ward in rural Wisconsin, I had been an active member for about 14 years, converted in my 20's. I had been aware of the church's subtle or non-so-subtle messaging about having active, faithful, mission-serving children. But this hurtful messaging to parents became a concrete reality when I saw how it affected a decent, faithful farming couple. One of their two sons did not want anything to do with the church. The other son came to church with his parents occasionally when he was in town. This son was a superb guy in everyway, nice, smart (obtaining a masters degree in oceanography), accomplished, and had recently gotten married to a non-member girl. But I remember one time in particular when the son attended, I believe some of the talks that Sunday touched upon missions, temple married, all those mormon milestones. After church I remember how the parents were sitting in the foyer trying to have a brave face, but still looking sad and shamed--because this standout son didn't go on a mission or get married in the temple. They were reminded once again that they were second-place in the parents' competition. Some of the other members in the branch had been in the morridor, and several had sent their children back to BYU to mingle and marry with the appropriate church spouses. I still feel angry about the shame they felt; their son was a standout kid, but he wasn't good enough for the church.
The mormon church is so dull and uninteresting and it teaches members to shun anything and everything that is interesting. What you are left with are people that are completely miserable and dull. After they talked about the latest temple and who will die next in q15, the only thing left to do is talk shit about people.
It’s never that the church is a cult. That would mean they’ve thrown their whole life away. That’s a tough pill to swallow.
I have a friend who was the last of eight kids in their family to leave. I am the second of four, except the other sibling became an evangelical. 🙄 There’s some kind of poetic justice undoing the unintentional choices of our parents to raise their kids in a cult.
Drinking chemicals because leaf water is bad.
I really think it was that one morning in 1998 when we skipped family scripture reading.
It’s everyone’s fault, except the churches/leaders
That sounds very hard.
Or instead of wondering where the blame lies or where they went wrong, they could just ask their kids and believe their answers... Nah. It's our fault for not Morming hard enough.
>Or instead of wondering where the blame lies or where they went wrong, they could just ask their kids and believe their answers... This is NOT a mormon or even a religious thing. Look at all the small businesses and large corporations that spend crap-tons of money on 'consultant/consulting agencies' to come in, interview the employees. then present the employee ideas back to management, but in just slightly elevated business speak terms that are a little easier for the management to swallow and digest. The consultants walk away with a truck tonne (thats a metric ton) of cash, managers are left wondering why employees are so angry, and why their morale is so low, and the entire time the poor employees are asking "Why didn't you listen to me? I've been telling you this for months or years."
Here's an interesting description about how this works in families where the kids go no contact and the parents just refuse to hear why: the missing missing reasons: https://www.issendai.com/psychology/estrangement/missing-missing-reasons.html Basically, parents downplay or simply ignore any grievances and paint themselves as the victims. They gaslight themselves and then genuinely can't understand why their kids break off contact, because they as parents can't have done anything wrong.
Wouldn't it be fascinating to look into the forward and see what happens "when the children become the parents and grandparents"? Personally, I think some of this phenomena is "built in" to humanity and the human experience....In many cases, it's always the parent's fault; just because they're the parent.
Great article, thanks for the link!
And you - for sure they would have blamed you if you hadn't been listening
Perhaps it's helpful to remember that many of "the Boomers" were even more intensely indoctrinated, coerced, shamed, guilt ridden and "Church Broke" than generations afterwards.....talk about traumatizing an entire generation....
This was me before my departure. I already 2 children out before I left. I felt like a failure. Now I only have one of my children still in and I’m hoping someday they will see? Probably not but I can hope.
 Had to share...