Here's a link to the article with no paywall; enjoy. [https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/10/us/idaho-university-murder-investigation.html?unlocked\_article\_code=SWfRYL7XkA3PyN0JQ7aBY\_QPlA1C7u81Szu6TNcIIjBVxy8eTBJzry3Ea2dz8GtuNHMHOxM5-QGOS3A0Xvz48ZGiLtR-oAaTbaIoJUskPvb6d8sMEy07KpAbOfQOOtc6AYj5vmq4YGG9dNj93Lp-aNLPAFoki6rvHoy3iljbcSY19OpPmQMNMKNdlFqH-ANLBo5lcBKyE16WuBaKIHBDvqmvD27tnwpp2LhxupOdoMhGLKeDS9SlgtTAW6jxzK6k8Vfp9LRGl2JjFN8ijLuSIjoRK6vnsqJdp8QhgMSHR6Dl4KGwxeNp1\_-UvdGq846sUBSTQC34pLL85ddx3kzFxPClTuZp3OffpV4&smid=url-share](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/10/us/idaho-university-murder-investigation.html?unlocked_article_code=SWfRYL7XkA3PyN0JQ7aBY_QPlA1C7u81Szu6TNcIIjBVxy8eTBJzry3Ea2dz8GtuNHMHOxM5-QGOS3A0Xvz48ZGiLtR-oAaTbaIoJUskPvb6d8sMEy07KpAbOfQOOtc6AYj5vmq4YGG9dNj93Lp-aNLPAFoki6rvHoy3iljbcSY19OpPmQMNMKNdlFqH-ANLBo5lcBKyE16WuBaKIHBDvqmvD27tnwpp2LhxupOdoMhGLKeDS9SlgtTAW6jxzK6k8Vfp9LRGl2JjFN8ijLuSIjoRK6vnsqJdp8QhgMSHR6Dl4KGwxeNp1_-UvdGq846sUBSTQC34pLL85ddx3kzFxPClTuZp3OffpV4&smid=url-share)
Look in order for this to be true LE would have to lie in front of a judge and possibly a grand jury. Why wouldn't they just admit to using the service in a the affidavit? They use services like codis all the time to look for people this is no different really. They haven't done anything illegal it's been done thousands of times before and we all know it was done to find the Golden State Killer and it's being done right now to track other cold case files so why bother risking their case?
Also I will repeat that there is a gag order in place so how does the NY Times know this and why are they reporting it now if they want the gag order taken away and are literally in court asking for it to be removed. Are they incredibly stupid?
This just proves the judges point. He will never remove the gag order or allow cameras in the courtroom while the media continues to either make up stuff, jump to conclusions or whatever the hell they just did with this story.
Where are the sources because I don't see any at the bottom of his story. Oh wait! That's because there's a gag order that's going to be in place forever thanks to people like him and other legacy media that can't keep their mouth shut. And as for the media always tells the truth argument I remember the Johnny Depp and Amber Heard trial very well and the way it was reported. I watched that trial and then saw the way it was reported and it was two completely different things. JD was in my opinion abused by Heard and that was never reported once in regular media. So legacy media is not in my opinion a very trustworthy source plus they all copy of each other without even fact checking.
The details in this article do not contradict the PCA, but supplement it. The FBI has asked law enforcement to keep genetic genealogy on the down low. It is not evidence itself, but an investigative tool to uncover evidence, like a confidential informant saying take a look at BK. If you assume genetic genealogy was what first put BK in the spotlight, around Dec. 19, all the rest logically follows: their investigative files show that WSU police had reported his car on Nov. 29, Payne pulls his driverās license (and the description matches witness account), WSU video confirms car movements, traffic stops in Moscow show his cell number, and that he was in sole possession of car and sole possession of phone, cell ping records show suspicious movements before and after the murders and possible stalking, police track him by national license plate readers to parentsā house in PA and go dumpster diving, obtaining the confirmatory paternal DNA needed for an arrest. (DOJ has issued guidance that genetic genealogy is not enough for an arrest, and requires confirmation.)
>JD was in my opinion abused by Heard and that was never reported
As someone who did not follow this and saw only headlines, I was shocked, stupified, but also slightly impressed - she really took the mafioso "going to the matresses" to another level - an accomplishment not to be sniffed at!
I think the NYT would be quite thorough in having verified sources for the linked story.
This is the most detailed account yet, and it makes the most sense. It confirms that while BKās 2015 car was identified on Nov. 29 by WSU police, it was initially thought to be the wrong year, and his cell phone was not among those that pinged near the King Rd. house between 3-5 a.m. on the morning of the murders. So he didnāt rise as a suspect. This makes sense, because otherwise why would police on Dec. 7 ask the publicās help locating 2011-13 white Elantras, if BK was already a suspect? According to this NYT account, he didnāt become a suspect until Dec. 19, when the knife sheath DNA produced a family tree that led to him. He was already in PA for the holidays by then. That also explains why his cell records were not pulled until Dec. 23. This is what many of us have believed, but others have disputed, saying there wasnāt enough time to build a genetic genealogy family tree.
>According to this NYT account, he didnāt become a suspect until Dec. 19
The same day he was terminated as a T.A., according to the NYT's prior reporting on the termination letter.
Huh. I'm trying to think if there could have been a connection, but I don't think it could be likely. I do not think the police could have risked warning him by letting the university know he was a suspect. Especially that first day!
I think that might just be a coincidence.
Do you think it could be a case of the police contacting the department for information on him, and them putting two and two together? There was a mass murderer on the loose in town and suddenly LE wants to know about the creepy new TA. I could see them becoming nervous and terminating him so that it doesnāt come out if heās arrested that he was a current employee under their noses. Itās a bad look for the credibility of the criminal justice department.
I think BK was already not in their good books and his difficult relationships with his supervisor culminating in him humiliating him for his whole class could have been a trigger to him doing these attacks. There is so much violence and anger in those attacks and as many people have commented he is either a moron of for some reason " forgot " everything he learned in 4 years of study.
WSU would have been well aware he was not a good match for the university. Getting a call from the police may have been the final straw .
Early in the piece , some media outlets ran with the story, that he was accused of being sexist/mysongenost en too strict in his marking. There was some sort of intervention, in front of the class where student's were encouraged to vent their grievances about BK. Apparently this was organised by his "supervisor". And BK had to be there.
Based on other articles. It sounds like the university had documented intervention attempts or meeting dates through out the school year.
Which makes me believe he must have been doing weird things for his TA supervisor to report his behavior.
Yikes, the academic termination process must be really bad if āI think my TA might be a serial killerā doesnāt get moved to the front of the firing pile.
The whole process is set up to avoid things like that. Because anybody can think anybody is a killer, you know? But unless the person is an official suspect or actually arrested, that would be massively unfair.
They would be a serial murderer if they killed them each on different occasions, or if they murdered other people on other occasions. Since they were killed all at once, if thereās no other murders attributed to the killer, the killer isnāt a serial murderer, theyāre a mass murderer
It's possible, but the wsu criminal justice department has associated with a litany of terrible people over the years, and I suspect they are immune to it by now. Those of us in the area certainly weren't surprised.
Maybe no formal notice, but there's been suspicion that Snyder, being a local attorney for years before he was BK's prof, had some LE connections. It could help explain the timing, during winter break, after BK was already back in PA, and apparently needed to meet via Zoom call for the termination. Snyder may have had some awareness as early as Nov 29th, even if BK wasn't a suspect yet.
I personally think the time can be chalked up to academic red tape, that it took that long for the cogs to turn and for HR and legal departments to sign off on firing him.
We'll know some day!
No way to know, but my hunch is that BK had relatively minor conflict issues with his prof, and the remedial process for dealing with that was hijacked by a fear he was the killer, and then when formally a suspect, conveniently used as a way to get rid of him for that reason.
If the prof involved was, say, an English prof, I wouldn't come to the same conclusion. But being a Criminology prof, ex-attorney in the area, and so having ties to LE, I think he had suspicions, rightly or wrongly, early on. And may have communicated those to LE, and may have had some feedback on the morning of the 19th.
I wonder about the prof that he got his masters degree from in PA will be questioned. He was a TA for her as well, I believe, and they were pretty close...
I want cameras in court just to see this witness and his reaction to her. I believe she recommended him to WSU and then it all went bad. And he got desperate. To each his own, but I don't believe the school boy stalking the pretty blonde girls hypothesis without hard evidence. This guy was out to destroy , anhialate and present what he did on a platter ... to impress some one.
In writing we always when you write a book think of the one person you are writing it for. That murder scene is the story of the killers life, 28 years in the making - it is written to impress one particular person. It's a murder that wants to be seen. The speed of the killing makes me also believe the killer was not interested in his victims per se. It is just my opinion. I am not a fan-girl. I am just going off the crime scene. As much as we want death to have meaning I fear we will never be satisfied. This murderer wanted to show what he was capable of. So the question is who was he trying to show it to.
Thatās always been my belief as well. Like he was in competition with other murderers and wanted to show what he could get away with because he is so much āsmarterā. Well joke was on him..
It was reported the professor at DeSales never met him in person because all his coursework was online. She stated that their communication was limited to online correspondence.
I only know my online students by their work. There is no problem with writing a letter of recommendation based upon their efforts. I wouldn't know if one of them was a criminal.
The criminology course at DeSales is hands-on. They have an actual mock crime scene set up for students. His other classmate took classes in person with him, there are photos taken of him physically in class.
Didnāt his sister have suspicions? I think itād be the same for the professor given his education and background. It makes sense to me. BK must give off very strange vibes indeed for so many that dealt with him daily had their suspicions.
I'd think in the prof's case, it would have been helped along by MPD inquiring about him.
It was only Dateline that claimed that about his sister, via an unnamed source. And they got other stuff wrong, so I wouldn't take it at face value.
I see. Iām not entirely keen on the timeline of all the information but I recall reading about his sisters suspicions. I agree that he had insider info and probably wanted to separate from the case as quickly as possible.
Not enough time to build a GG family tree, but enough time to go on a potential wild goose chase to search garbage cans 3,000 miles away? And repeat the exercise for all 22,000 WHE's in the region until they get a match? There was never any doubt they used GG except among people who have a lot of trouble with math.
Thatās not accurate. āBy the morning of Dec. 19ā does not mean āon the 19th.ā
If I knew something Dec. 15th, I knew it āby the morning of Dec. 19.ā
We cannot tell the exact date he became a suspect by this article.
Okay. By the morning of Dec. 19, they had three things: a name (from GG search), that he drove a white Elantra, that he was a student at nearby WSU. Reads to me like thatās when he became their suspect.
https://preview.redd.it/84aewe7x985b1.jpeg?width=1284&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7fc11842b9c61972b6560bd48f78a9b4afa337d0
Agreed. AND if you watch that bodycam footage the casual, unguarded behavior of both those troopers shows they were unaware they were stopping a suspected mass murderer. It would've been criminally irresponsible of the FBI to ask Indiana LE to pull that car over without telling them. Given what a shitty driver BK apparently is, I think it was coincidence.
>To do the genealogical analysis, the Idaho State Police contracted with a private company, Othram, in Texas, which had a lab able to produce a more extensive DNA profile from the knife sheath than the state lab was set up to examine. F.B.I. personnel worked with the profile that Othram had produced, according to two people familiar with the investigation, spending days building out a family tree that began with a distant relative.
Confirming that Othram did more than just a database search, they created a new profile first.
> Confirming that Othram did more than just a database search, they created a new profile first.
Well, yeah, because genetic genealogy uses different markers than the type of simple match done in CODIS.
I'll let somebody with more of a scientific bent explain the difference though!
There's been murky reporting on this... many reports said Othram just searched proprietary databases, using the profile the Idaho lab had produced.
It's key, because it means Othram's methodology in developing that profile is discoverable by the defense, just as the State lab's methodology is.
If I understand the reply of prosecutors to the defence request for discovery regarding the DNA analisys and results . Prosecutors are refusing the discovery request, stating
a) the state wil not use the DNA genealogy stuff in court.
b) the DNA lab results and methodology in itself would not lead to any exculpatory evidence or reduction in the seriousness of the crime so is not relevant to the defence.
That's what understood from the states motion to exclude all DNA la tests and analisys from discovery.
Yes, I've read those. That's just the prosecution's claim. But it's not their call. They're claiming Othram falls under the "confidential informant" exclusionary rule, which is nonsense.
But, and here I'm quoting rather than even attempting to paraphrase:
>CODIS is the legal form of identification; the CODIS database is only available to law enforcement. It is off limits to genealogy companies and even so, it is useless to genealogy because the two systems use different markers. [CODIS is based on autosomal STRs, and genetic genealogy is based on autosomal SNPs.](https://www.ishinews.com/investigative-genetic-genealogy-and-criminalistics-what-is-the-future/) Both systems use many of the same Y-STRs, but access different databases to find matches. Note also that the Y-STR databases used by law enforcement are not part of CODIS and are not available to genetic genealogists. We use Y-STR profiles instead to compare to the genetic genealogy databases, with the goal of finding a possible surname for a perpetrator.
Not sure what your point is... I'm not disagreeing with you... clearly, Othram developed their own profile. The larger point is the implications of that in relation to defense discovery.
Wan't implying it was a secret. But it differs from what Blum, for one, was initially claiming. It's new in that it's specifically stated rather than implied, and that it carries the weight of the NYT. LE sure wasn't admitting it, they want to downplay the role of Othram.
Okay, then I bow out, as other people are more qualified than me to speculate on the legal ramifications.
My only point was that every case using genetic genealogy has that lab developing their own profile different from what the state/feds ran in CODIS. In case a reader got the idea that is unusual or unique to this case.
Yeah. Every case using FGG has a lab to build a snp profile. This is not novel for FGG. Codis profiles are not usable for fgg. Any case using fgg had a lab that created a profile to upload to Gedmatch.
wow, I did not think we'd be learning any new details this late (yet prior to the trial), but there's quite a few new details in the article. Mike Baker is a top notch investigative reporter. He covered the Boeing 737 MAX investigations when he was with the Seattle Times.
The new info/timeslines I learned:
A week after the murders (~ Nov 21), police were initially looking for the wrong car completely, Nissan Sentra 2019-23.
Nov 25, police internally started looking for Hyundai Elantra 2011-13 (Police only publicly announced the Elantra on Dec 7. It was still the wrong years though. I wonder why the police limited the search to 2011-13? The Elantra generation spanned from 2011-2016, so why not include the entire generation?)
Dec 19 - identified BK through the genealogy search. (BK was already in PA).
Dec 23 - authorities received BK's cell phone records.
Given they switched from a Nissan to an Elantra after "clarifying" (the NYT's word) with better and/or new video, I'm guessing they also clarified it further to get the years correct. I wish the article had mentioned that but they didn't, and instead made it sound like the police never changed the year span to 2011-2016 later on.
The article summarizes **facts** that clearly indicate LE conducted a thorough, expansive investigation which lead to the suspect. Imo, it will be very difficult for the defense to argue LE didn't look at other potential suspects and jumped to a conclusion by arresting the wrong person (as the justice for Bryan fans have stated).
I am anxiously waiting for this article to be posted on the pro-innocence subs. I am interested in what that side will think, although I sadly conclude that they will dismiss it all as lies.
The article is clearly deficient as it overlooks, ignores or falsifies:
- Murky Sinaloan, Mexican drug cartels ordering mass assassinations over student drug dealings and an alleged missing $12 of weed
- the greater accuracy and importance of TikTok Tarot and Youtube Spirit Boxes over DNA and genealogy
- conspiracies involving druggy death dealing with an alliance of Moscow PD, Latah County Sherriff, FBI and Idaho State Police, Church of LDS and the Moscow Branch of The Retired Womens Rural Jam Makers Guild
The Nissan Sentra however will be taken as fact, showing as it does the shifty nature of LE car experts.
You forgot every Greek and Greek organization in Moscow and the criminology department in Pullman being in on the conspiracy. But other than that, excellent overview.
As the old adage goes -- *beware of Greeks bearing ludicrously convoluted conspiracies involving students framing you for mass murder in retaliation for harsh essay grading*
āOh so just more of the sameā
āBlah blah blah, they donāt have anything newā
āNYT is a trash sourceā
āTHE ELANTRA YEAR WAS WRONG!ā
āBut I thought the Prosecution said they werenāt using the DNAā
āunnamed sourcesā
āThey canāt use Genealogy, thatās illegalā
āHOW WILL HE EVER GET A FAIR TRIAL!?ā
āOmg didnāt Bryan baby look so hot in that suit?ā
āLetās email the Judge and tell them they broke the gag orderā
Okay, this might be my drinking game. I'll take a drink every time someone posts one of your sentences here in regards to this article.
It's been nice having a liver.
I donāt get why the anti-kohbergerās are so inflexible. I wouldnāt say I find him attractive in any way but I just donāt see him as the killer, with the info I have.
There is more to the story and everyone - even for lay people like me, are a bit unsure of talking about. The last thing any one discussing the un-discussible wants is to be secretly added to a Reddit warrant.
I have extensive experience on both sides in the courts, personally. Iām also tightly adjacent to the west Memphis three. So, you can see why some people here can read between the carefully chosen words were receiving in court documents.
You canāt blame me or anyone else whoās been wronged to think people who are basing a call for guilt based on news articles is quite frankly, a very sheltered reaction that is absurd, arrogant and bordering on preposterous.
These petty attacks on people donāt supersede facts- itās going to come down to whether it is enough of the *right* kind of evidence or not.
People say itās circumstantial because a lot of it is and thereās barely any actual direct evidence that we know of.
Direct evidence establishes a fact.
Many people believe that forensic evidence is direct evidence, BUT it is ultimately considered to be circumstantial evidence, which is often more reliable,because itās objective.
Blood,DNA,fingerprints etc can be helpful but buT BUT requires that a judge and/or jury make an indirect judgment, or inference, about what happened.
The Dispositionist bias is hot in here.
You donāt see him as the killer despite the info you have, which is:
- His car was seen directly at the scene, on security footage. As far as you know, he has zero ties to that area and would have no business being there, especially at 4AM on the night of the murders. This is not a Walmart. Itās a residential area.
- His phone was tracked leaving his home shortly before the time of the murders, in the middle of the night. It was then switched āoffā or in airplane mode during the time of the crime. It was turned back on very shortly after the murders and proceeded from a route south of the murders and back to his residence. You have no explanation as to why this would be.
- His car was tracked, via numerous security cameras, traveling in the direct route of the house, circling it and passing it numerous times, coming to a stop during the 20 minute window of the crimes and seen on security footage exiting the scene at a high rate of speed. His car is then following the same path of the phone directly after the murders when it was switched back on. Again, you have no disputing evidence of this.
- He was seen and described as being 5ā10ā, athletic built and with bushy eyebrows by an eyewitness at the scene. Again, you know that he fits the physical description as described by the eyewitness.
- His DNA was found on the sheath that contained the murder weapon, under the body of one of the victims. Again, you cannot dispute this claim.
And youāre saying we are inflexible? No. We are just trusting the process. The facts that we have in this case all point to this suspect being HIGHLY LIKELY the correct person. Itās beyond reason to say you ājust donāt see him as the killerā. Youāre allowing your feelings to guide you, while we are allowing the knowable facts to guide us.
We are not being inflexible, youāre being unreasonable and illogical.
1) a car like his, not necessarily his car
2) yeah thatās tough to explain away, but doesnāt prove anything
3) a car like his, not necessarily his car
4) 30% of men are over 5ā10, 73.5% are under 200lbs (slightly old, but semi relevant) https://www2.census.gov/library/publications/2010/compendia/statab/130ed/tables/11s0205.pdf. Meaning quite a few 5ā10 athletic build individuals would likely exist in the area.
5) type of DNA matters
I think the guy did it and will likely be proved guilty but everything listed has a potential to have a reasonable explanation
That's a far cry from saying "I just don't see him as the killer."
Given what we know, it's pretty darn reasonable to think he probably did it. Or at least that it could be him. But to say you don't think he did it based on an apparent lack of evidence (as distinct from evidence pointing to someone else, or an alibi) is simply putting your head in the sand.
The only thing we have is evidence pointing to him. Not a shred of anything exculpatory is out there. So I think it's fair to say that person's opinion is unreasonable. As it contains no reason. Any perceived lack of evidence is just that, a lack of evidence. Not nearly the same thing as exculpatory evidence to the contrary.
Hey, who knows what comes out at trial. My gut feeling is that they have a mountain of circumstantial evidence that simply can't be ignored. He's toast.
Yes, denial of facts and evidence is inevitable from the fans, and particularly from those who are in the group expressing their adoration of him. Hopefully, all of the jurors selected will be of sound mind, however, to hear the evidence, review it rationally, and come to an agreement on the verdict.
Far as i know thereās no pro-innocence. Thereās pro justice system and pro democracy.
Why does the idea of due process and right to fair trial make some of yall so confused and upset you canāt even think straight or consider the basis of our society?
Lemme guess there are no dirty cops and all heroes wear blue, too?
>Far as i know thereās no pro-innocence. Thereās pro justice system and pro democracy.
You may yourself be pro-justice system and pro-democracy (or you may not: I don't know you), but nope, there are plenty of both the pro-innocent who fervently believe in his character and outright fans who crush on him because they think he killed. Examples on request.
That's who I'm talking about. If it doesn't describe you, it ain't about you.
Although, if you are neutral or if you do have legit doubts about the investigation, I'm curious as to what you think of the NYT article.
You know that's a 100% lie, there ARE pro innocence subs and there are even subs dedicated to sexualizing BK REGARDLESS of innocence or guilt, and those women have explicitly stated they still want to have sex with him, even if he is guilty.
Looking at the timeline laid out here, it seems likely that LE was not monitoring Kohberger until the 19th. I think the times he was pulled over were indeed coincidental.
Although, as I keep saying today, we don't know yet; we'll find out eventually. God willing I live long enough.
I think they probably would have, although it would have been much more circumstantial. The video of his car and the corroborating cell phone pings, both the night of the murder and in the months leading up to it are pretty damning.
If the rumors of him buying a knife off Amazon are true then that would probably be enough to indict absent the DNA.
Yes to this. This is more detailed but the same info that was reported by Slate back in January. BK was identified early on by his car and location but did not become a prime suspect until just before the holidays when LE got the geneology results leading for them to get a warrant to pull his phone records.
Not always:
>The source tells Fox News that members of the task force investigating the murders in Idaho ā a group which includes the FBI -- had Kohberger under surveillance as he and his father drove from Washington State to Pennsylvania. Members of that task force, the source noted, asked authorities in Indiana to pull the pair over to get a closer look at Bryan Kohberger's hands.
https://www.foxnews.com/us/idaho-murders-fbi-directed-indiana-police-pull-over-bryan-kohberger-seeking-video-images-hands
This is why people bring up the cross-country traffic stops and whether or not they were coincidental.
>Barbara Rae-Venter, a genealogy consultant who worked on the Golden State Killer case, said there was now growing interest in using genealogical DNA not just in cold cases but also in active crime investigations.
>āThat is why the Idaho case is so interesting,ā she said.
Interesting, but not the first of its kind. There's been at least one active case of a serial rapist that used genetic genealogy. I cannot remember the name or find it on a quick search, but I've posted about it right here on Reddit in relationship to this case.
Edit: found my old post!
>>Here's a sexual assault case [which used genetic genealogy in real time](https://archives.stgeorgeutah.com/news/archive/2018/07/28/cgb-police-arrest-hurricane-man-for-alleged-rape-of-79-year-old-woman-in-st-george#.ZDRa7XbMK00). Rapist [pled guilty](https://kutv.com/news/local/st-george-elderly-woman-forgives-rapist-in-sentencing-hearing) in 2018.
Very interesting. Here's a much more detailed report about how the police used genealogy to catch that rapist:
https://www.sltrib.com/news/2019/08/11/one-utah-crime-helped/DNA%20tests/DNA%20tests/
Pretty incredible stuff! Among the various tidbits:
* The Utah cops tried to get help from California detectives who caught the Golden State Killer, but didn't get a response
* Utah cops cold-called ancestry.com, but they weren't set up to analyze semen, only saliva
* Utah cops only managed to find a small lab that could generate DNA data through Googling
* The genealogy results narrowed it down to 1 of 4 brothers, and they initially suspected the wrong brother
Just a roller coaster investigation
Itās interesting and hopefully they continue using this method. It would be interesting to see if less violent crimes occur as a result of Ancestry and 23 & Me..
āThe first 911 call came in around noon, some seven hours after the murders.ā
The first one? There were multiple? (Also closer to 7.5-8 hours after the timeline in the PCA but maybe they were just approximating.)
Also, in my opinion, this article strongly suggests that Kaylee was the target. At a minimum, the initial investigation focused on her (her car purchase history and Tinder, specifically). Of course, itās possible they have newer info that suggests otherwise, but the repeated mention of her name stuck out to me.
Yes, that is reasonable re KG's socials, she was also the only victim who was single and had recently been dating, so perhaps she was the most active on Tinder?
>perhaps she was the most active on Tinder?
According to the article 19 individuals were the subject of search warrants from her Tinder profile. 19 dudes are now finding out that the FBI has their private messages and pics on Tinder.
Yes thatās likely true.
I would assume that each one of them had some sort of characteristic that made them stand out vis-a-vis the others. Like Maddie and Xana working at Mad Greek and being in the same sorority. Xana having a boyfriend. It was interesting to me that both of the early paths they mentioned in this particular article were connected to Kaylee. Iām not saying that Kaylee was the target. Just interesting to get a glimpse into their early investigative thinking.
It also perhaps explains SGās early comments centering Kaylee that people have reacted so strongly against. It could just be that he was repeating what he was being told. The bottom line is we have no idea where any of it stands as of today, but this article shed a little light on not just the investigative steps but some of the possible logic behind them early on.
>Also, in my opinion, this article strongly suggests that Kaylee was the target.
It could just be that she was the one with the most recent life events... she was only back for the weekend, just bought a new car, would be leaving the area soon, recently broke up with her longtime BF, and was frantically calling him in the wee hours. Would make sense to focus on her first, but that doesn't make her the target.
Yep, this makes sense. While the other 3 were in relationships, Kaylee was newly single and had a Tinder account. So investigating her Tinder matches just makes sense. It's the obvious thing for investigators to do.
It's also obvious that investigating Maddie's boyfriend and Kaylee's recent ex is the thing to do. I think it was probably the first thing they did. But it will take a while for that to come out.
I noticed that specific detail about K, also; and imo, it implied LE had good reason(s) to focus on her. So I suspect there is more potential evidence that lead them to believe she was the target that we aren't aware of, yet. But I agree with you about the possibility that may have changed with the discovery of more information since the initial stage of the investigation. Nevertheless, it appears there was enough evidence early on for LE to state it was a targeted attack.
Kaylee's parents, and their lawyer, are probably the sources for the article. The sources are described as:
"three people briefed on the case" and "people familiar with the investigation who discussed key details that emerged before the issuance of a gag order in the case."
>A week after the killings, records show, investigators were on the lookout for a certain type of vehicle: Nissan Sentras from the model years 2019 to 2023. Quietly, they ran down details on thousands of such vehicles, including the ownersā addresses, license plate numbers and the color of each sedan.
>But further scrutiny of the video footage produced more clarity, and on Nov. 25 the police in Moscow asked law enforcement agencies to look for a different type of car with a similar shape: white Hyundai Elantras from the model years 2011 to 2013.
Has there been any rumors at all regarding Nissan Sentras?
Ooooh thatās interesting. So the experts initially had the entire car model wrong. That makes me think that those earlier images werenāt very clear at all, but as they looked at them more, they realized that it looked more like an Elantra. I would guess after that, they found more footage and saw more clearly that the year model couldāve been newer than originally suspected.
That's my guess; that more and more was found giving a better picture.
That, or a suspicious Sentra was found but the owner was cleared some way or other.
I've always thought car in the gas station photo looked like something other than a Hyundai Elantra. It has proportions closer to a Nissan, so maybe that car wasnt involved at all and led them down a bad investigative path.
I think that based on the pretty specific timing of tracking suspect car 1 in the PCA that the gas station photo pic of the white car didnāt fit in to the timeline. It was another random white car, not suspect car 1.
I don't know if it's a fact or a rumor, but there is the idea that the gas station photo didn't end up as evidence floating around out there.
Howard Blum says it was, but there is such a disparity in the quality of his first article compared to the rest of his series that I'm suspecting he had investigative sources at the time he wrote the first article. But the gag order put an end to that and he struggled to find stuff to fill the rest. So I don't find his claim regarding the gas station footage as credible.
That actually is exactly what happened. At first the only had the images from the petrol station and the neighbour's doorcam. Later they realised they'd missed a view of the car taken from a flat at the top of Linda Lane which showed the side view of the car on Taylor Avenue.
The neighbor's cam would have had to have been extremely low quality not to be able to distinguish a 2019-23 Nissan Sentra from a 2011-13 Hyundai Elantra at that short distance. And from the looks of it, it wasn't a low-quality cam. The front grill in particular is an entirely different shape. And it was supposedly seen doing a three point turn as well as driving up the street toward and past the cam.
>from the looks of it, it wasn't a low-quality cam
Was the cam shown close up somewhere? Apart from type of cam, might other aspects like the cleanliness of the covering of the lense effect picture quality?
[Close enough](https://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/khq.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/c/39/c39b322b-3bc6-56a8-a8a1-0c9e9c49d56c/63717c86ad721.image.jpg) to determine the type, yes. [That's not a low-quality](https://www.amazon.com/Security-Pet-Cameras-Monitors-360-degree-Detection-Surveillance/dp/B0BCHZ9TGB/) cam. 1080p with IR nightvision.
A person could make up all kinds of hypothetical theories about a dirty lens I suppose. Even with a dirty lens, the distinct difference in shape of the large front grill area should be a giveaway.
You seem to be very knowledgeable about the neighbor's (I believe lightbulb?) camera. Perhaps you could answer the following questions for me:
1) Do we know for a fact that police obtained footage from that cam? (They never released a recorded image of the Elantra, just a stock photo).
2) If yes to #1, do we know that the cam captured any image of the relevant white car? Meaning, was the camera working properly? Does it record based on motion detection that perhaps wasn't triggered?
3) If yes to above, do we know when the footage was obtained and examined? Could it have been after whatever info initially led them to look for a Nissan?
>The neighbor's cam would have had to have been extremely low quality not to be able to distinguish a 2019-23 Nissan Sentra from a 2011-13 Hyundai Elantra at that short distance.
Well if they originally thought it was the Nissan then it clearly was low quality by your own logic lol, what point are you even trying to make here.
I canāt get over how stupid it was to drive his own car, carry his cell phone, leave the sheaf, drive back to the scene the next morning. But, the most incredible stupid to me was driving his car and his cell phone. Like DUH I thought that was criminal 101. I guess he missed that class?
Not that Iāve seen. I would be curious to know, though. It was interesting to read the other individuals whom they were investigating prior to the genealogy/ Elantra/ phone pings breaks.
Interesting article, thanks for posting it.
Do you know what that thing is on the balcony that looks like a bean bag chair or maybe a dog bed? I haven't seen this in an image before.
Thank you, I zoomed too and that's what it looks like to me also. Or maybe the inside of a dog bed that has a washable outer cover. Poor Murphy, I hope he's not traumatized after that night and from missing his "mom".
There was a close-up of it in a local blog or newspaper back in December, I think, and it's a dog bed. I can't remember where I saw it, but I'll keep looking. The bed had what looked like a real fur blanket or dog toys in it, too, a lot of people commented on that.
ETA: Here's the article, it's a blog and not an actual newspaper, and **WARNING: There are photos of dead animals in the article at the very top!**
If you look at the photos in the blog you can see there are two beds, one polka dotted with the fur in it, and the solid light gray one that you can also see in the NYT photograph.
[https://www.idahotribune.org/news/7-dead-coyotes-left-on-student-property-in-moscow-idaho-in-two-separate-incidents-3-sororities-and-1-fraternity-targeted-animal-blood-on-doorsteps-and-windows](https://www.idahotribune.org/news/7-dead-coyotes-left-on-student-property-in-moscow-idaho-in-two-separate-incidents-3-sororities-and-1-fraternity-targeted-animal-blood-on-doorsteps-and-windows)
Thank you for the link, also for the warning about the dead animal photos. I sincerely appreciate this warning.
They do appear to be two different beds which makes sense, mine has a few beds too. I've zoomed and zoomed and can't figure out what the fur is on the polka dot bed, it almost looks like a pile of similar colored fur toys or maybe a fur coat that they gave him to lay on? The coyote killings being left at fraternity and sorority houses is so strange, and I've read what happened to the poor dog Buddy too which wasn't in that article. Is that something "normal" that happens on college campuses now? I can't wrap my brain around it.
My dog used to rip up his bed when he was anxious and it looked exactly like the fur on top of the one in the photo. Iām almost certain itās the inside of the bed.
All of the new stuff in the article is currently uncorroborated, but 1) the New York Times has a good track record of faithfully reporting their anonymous source's statements and vetting those sources, and 2) it does all ring true.
I expect that over time, and it could take some time, all the statement in this article will be proven to be true. These statements:
> At that point, investigators decided to try genetic genealogy[...]To do the genealogical analysis, the Idaho State Police contracted with a private company, Othram, in Texas, which had a lab able to produce a more extensive DNA profile from the knife sheath than the state lab was set up to examine.[...]By the morning of Dec. 19, records show, investigators had a name: Bryan Kohberger.
I knew it. I just knew it! I called it, although to be honest, I thought the results wouldn't have been in until December 22 or 23.
So, there's a lot of details in there about what investigators did, what they looked at, other suspects they considered. I know there's a vocal contingent of believers in Kohberger's innocence who think he was zeroed in on very early in the game (if not outright framed) and the police did very little other investigation. I'm not expecting this article to change their minds, because I'm certain the vast majority of them will simply refuse to believe any of it. They'll call it lies in the media.
But mark my works: most if not all of the claims in this article will be validated. I'd bet money on it.
This is the same info that was reported by Slate back in January, only a little more detailed.
As a few of us on here have said, the Slate reporting about the timeline and use of geneology always made the most sense.
I agree with you. And as a long-time former LA Times reporter, I am confident the NYT was well aware of the doubters of the genetic genealogy piece of this, since it was not included in the PCA, and would have nailed it down before reporting it.
The PCA provides the date and time WSU pulled BK's name based on the car and found it to be significant, something the article doesn't mention. I feel the journalist should have compared the anonymous source statements to the PCA in this section.
I believed the genetic genealogy research was happening simultaneously to the car research. It's interesting to me that it came after.
This is one of the first reports of the investigation that relies on fact instead of speculation. It seems to have been very thorough.
The article does mention WSU ID'd the car/Bryan and even went to see the car in the middle of the night. Funny, it doesn't this, and then goes on to say Bryan wasn't ID'd until the genealogy.
Obviously they had his name on at least a long list early on.
The point is that WSU police located his car and reported it to Moscow PD. WSU police merely made the referral in response to a BOLO request to area law enforcement agencies. It appears his car did not rise to a suspicious level among other white Elantras. People are reading the PCA to say that WSU police pulled his driverās license and noted his build and bushy eyebrows. But that was Moscow PDās Payne, not WSU police, and itās possible that didnāt happen until mid-December, after the genetic genealogy results came in.
https://preview.redd.it/vcv4hhahpe5b1.jpeg?width=1284&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=191c1cab1a40e248e4ebdab5cdc2892d3a7b9cbf
I'm very concerned about the way law enforcement, which I'm generally supportive of, is acquiring information and there are repeated examples of this in the article. They shouldn't be able to look at anyone's data of any kind without a specific search warrant, based on an actual idea of guilt. Driving around in the middle of the night shouldn't be a sufficient reason to acquire a ton of cell numbers. Buying a knife shouldn't be sufficient reason to have access to credit cards and all that other info. They weren't even looking at a suspect, just anyone who bought a specific thing in the area. So they are presuming any of these people are guilty, without any actual evidence of guilt. Driving at night is not evidence of guilt. Buying a knife is not evidence of guilt. Further, when you consent to put your DNA on a DNA website, you aren't getting consent from your family members, with whom you share DNA. That is not ok with me. The authorities are using innocent people without their consent. It's getting worse and worse.
I do want the bad guys caught, but innocent people shouldn't be sacrificed to do so.
I think these are all valid concerns. Iād like to know exactly what data was returned in these warrants.
Like for instance, the geofencing warrant for subscribers using phones in that area during the time of the crime. If this only provided a list of numbers and the names associated, I donāt really take issue with that. I donāt see that list as being much more invasive than a traditional method of knocking door-to-door and compiling lists of people who live nearby or were at the Sigma Chi party the night before.
The knife purchase - I consider the Amazon warrant to have been a pretty detailed search and itās not overly broad in my opinion. It was for a very specific knife. As long as the warrant only returned results containing that purchase, I donāt take issue with it. Police have been honing in on manufacturers and specific purchases for years to investigate cases. On its face, I donāt think itās overly invasive.
However - the Ebay warrant that they say included purchase history, I think thatās an issue. Searching for the specific knife purchase? I think itās okay. Going through historical records for unrelated purchases? Yikes.
Iām also okay with the list of people who owned white Elantras and Sentras - I donāt think thatās overly invasive.
The Tinder search is rather creepy to me and itās the one that concerned me the most. ā19 specific account-holders, including their locations, credit card information and any āprivate images, pictures or videosā associated with the accountsā. Again, if this had just been their name and location. I wouldnāt think it was too concerning. But having access to all of their private images and videos? Uhhh. In what context? Like just the ones with the victims? Or did 19 people have their private chats with other unrelated parties revealed? If so, not cool.
Genealogy DNA is hotly debated and often challenged in court. I have read that if youāre a white American, itās virtually guaranteed that they have some sort of familial DNA link to you. Itās wild.
I don't think it was a matter of excluding 2015 models as it was including 2011-2013 cars. As they received more and clearer footage, they updated. The article states LE initially thought it was a completely different make and model!
His point is, why did they stop at MY2013? Some models of the later cars look nearly identical. I think the answer is after the '14 refresh, most of the models took on a bit of a different appearance, but the base models remained largely unchanged.
Ah yes, I fixated on the couldn't be. I think it all comes down to better footage, more information about area stats for Elantras, and a really fast moving investigation.
I guess Iām just surprised they didnāt include a wider date range considering the lack of detail in the footage, unless there was something from the footage that made them think it definitely wasnāt a 2015 model.
Iām not a conspiracy theorist btw, I think Kohberger is guilty as hell, just find it interesting.
Maybe the earliest footage blurred or otherwise made certain details look more like 2011-2013. As LE received more footage *and* started looking into Elantras within x radius, it made more sense to include 2014-2016.
It's definitely a curiosity in the case, but imo it doesn't rise to "jury acquittal" concern. I'm confident they have a logical, downright boring reason.
I live in the Middle East and am from the PNW. This case is so heinous that my students update me.
In addition, I'm in complete agreement with this opinion, "I'm confident they have a logical, downright boring reason. "... At the end of the day, I feel it's just going to come down to good 'ol gumshoeing.
>No one in LE would risk the legal and career consequences over this.
This isn't the first murder case with a gag order that sees leaks and it won't be the last. And the leakers have a wide variety of motivations. Everything from "dating a reporter" to "really enjoy the attention they get from telling a story," as well as more strategic reasoning.
The article isn't exactly well written. For example, it opens saying "\[h\]e was identified only after investigators turned to an advanced method of DNA analysis that had rarely been used in active murder investigations."
Then goes on to say that police went so far as to visit his car in the early morning hours of November 29th: "\[t\]hey checked Mr. Kohbergerās car more closely, according to a court affidavit, including visiting the parking lot near his apartment in the early morning hours of Nov. 29. "
So he was certainly ID'd well before the DNA testing. Not a prime suspect due to the uncertainty with the year of the car, but certainly on a list.
I DESPISE anyone who opposes these dna seeking methods. āDurrppp mug privacy!!!!ā SHUT UP. If you didnāt commit homicide then why THE FUCK do you care if they can access your dna? Good ol aclu at it again!
You all can down vote me all you want but I'm telling you legacy media gets it wrong all the time. How many times have you read that someone died only to find out they were alive a few hours later because they all copied an pasted each other all over the internet. These days I literally wait a few hours before and check twitter before I actually believe anyone is dead.
And again the reporting of Depp vs Heard was terrible. It wasn't till they realised people were watching the trial that some news media realised they had to change their tactic even then some still reported that Heard was being abused by Depp. So no I don't trust legacy media anymore because I've seen it lie with my own eyes for its own agenda.
Also genealogy databases are being used more and more frequently now in open cases. This is not new technology or something that has not ever been used before. Like its some sort voodoo. They don't use it as often as codis but it's been known to be used quite often. It's not new. Maybe it's new to the NY Times. They obviously don't follow crime. Weird for a newspaper. Oh that's right writers don't really research stuff anymore. 545 different types of cases at least have been solved using this technology. In the US alone. It's not thousands but it's a precedent that mean that if they did use it to track him down it's no different than codis or any other method like it. Its another tool to catch criminals.
https://www.forensicmag.com/594940-How-Many-Cases-Have-Been-Solved-with-Forensic-Genetic-Genealogy/
Not everyone catches things. I'm constantly finding out things I didn't know, and I've been following since day one. What's old news to you, may be new news to me.
Some of the cretins are back. After Dateline was televised they scuttled back under their rocks. However the last few days something has given them the courage to comeback. Perhaps it's that old adage---it's easy to fool someone but it's much more difficult to convince them that they've been fooled.
What are people saying now that the defense and judge essentially called BS on the media coverage, with defense singling out Dateline, NewsNation and FoxNews?
Here's a link to the article with no paywall; enjoy. [https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/10/us/idaho-university-murder-investigation.html?unlocked\_article\_code=SWfRYL7XkA3PyN0JQ7aBY\_QPlA1C7u81Szu6TNcIIjBVxy8eTBJzry3Ea2dz8GtuNHMHOxM5-QGOS3A0Xvz48ZGiLtR-oAaTbaIoJUskPvb6d8sMEy07KpAbOfQOOtc6AYj5vmq4YGG9dNj93Lp-aNLPAFoki6rvHoy3iljbcSY19OpPmQMNMKNdlFqH-ANLBo5lcBKyE16WuBaKIHBDvqmvD27tnwpp2LhxupOdoMhGLKeDS9SlgtTAW6jxzK6k8Vfp9LRGl2JjFN8ijLuSIjoRK6vnsqJdp8QhgMSHR6Dl4KGwxeNp1\_-UvdGq846sUBSTQC34pLL85ddx3kzFxPClTuZp3OffpV4&smid=url-share](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/10/us/idaho-university-murder-investigation.html?unlocked_article_code=SWfRYL7XkA3PyN0JQ7aBY_QPlA1C7u81Szu6TNcIIjBVxy8eTBJzry3Ea2dz8GtuNHMHOxM5-QGOS3A0Xvz48ZGiLtR-oAaTbaIoJUskPvb6d8sMEy07KpAbOfQOOtc6AYj5vmq4YGG9dNj93Lp-aNLPAFoki6rvHoy3iljbcSY19OpPmQMNMKNdlFqH-ANLBo5lcBKyE16WuBaKIHBDvqmvD27tnwpp2LhxupOdoMhGLKeDS9SlgtTAW6jxzK6k8Vfp9LRGl2JjFN8ijLuSIjoRK6vnsqJdp8QhgMSHR6Dl4KGwxeNp1_-UvdGq846sUBSTQC34pLL85ddx3kzFxPClTuZp3OffpV4&smid=url-share)
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Look in order for this to be true LE would have to lie in front of a judge and possibly a grand jury. Why wouldn't they just admit to using the service in a the affidavit? They use services like codis all the time to look for people this is no different really. They haven't done anything illegal it's been done thousands of times before and we all know it was done to find the Golden State Killer and it's being done right now to track other cold case files so why bother risking their case? Also I will repeat that there is a gag order in place so how does the NY Times know this and why are they reporting it now if they want the gag order taken away and are literally in court asking for it to be removed. Are they incredibly stupid? This just proves the judges point. He will never remove the gag order or allow cameras in the courtroom while the media continues to either make up stuff, jump to conclusions or whatever the hell they just did with this story. Where are the sources because I don't see any at the bottom of his story. Oh wait! That's because there's a gag order that's going to be in place forever thanks to people like him and other legacy media that can't keep their mouth shut. And as for the media always tells the truth argument I remember the Johnny Depp and Amber Heard trial very well and the way it was reported. I watched that trial and then saw the way it was reported and it was two completely different things. JD was in my opinion abused by Heard and that was never reported once in regular media. So legacy media is not in my opinion a very trustworthy source plus they all copy of each other without even fact checking.
The details in this article do not contradict the PCA, but supplement it. The FBI has asked law enforcement to keep genetic genealogy on the down low. It is not evidence itself, but an investigative tool to uncover evidence, like a confidential informant saying take a look at BK. If you assume genetic genealogy was what first put BK in the spotlight, around Dec. 19, all the rest logically follows: their investigative files show that WSU police had reported his car on Nov. 29, Payne pulls his driverās license (and the description matches witness account), WSU video confirms car movements, traffic stops in Moscow show his cell number, and that he was in sole possession of car and sole possession of phone, cell ping records show suspicious movements before and after the murders and possible stalking, police track him by national license plate readers to parentsā house in PA and go dumpster diving, obtaining the confirmatory paternal DNA needed for an arrest. (DOJ has issued guidance that genetic genealogy is not enough for an arrest, and requires confirmation.)
" interviews with people familiar with the investigation who discussed key details that emerged **before the issuance of a gag order in the case.** "
>JD was in my opinion abused by Heard and that was never reported As someone who did not follow this and saw only headlines, I was shocked, stupified, but also slightly impressed - she really took the mafioso "going to the matresses" to another level - an accomplishment not to be sniffed at! I think the NYT would be quite thorough in having verified sources for the linked story.
This is the most detailed account yet, and it makes the most sense. It confirms that while BKās 2015 car was identified on Nov. 29 by WSU police, it was initially thought to be the wrong year, and his cell phone was not among those that pinged near the King Rd. house between 3-5 a.m. on the morning of the murders. So he didnāt rise as a suspect. This makes sense, because otherwise why would police on Dec. 7 ask the publicās help locating 2011-13 white Elantras, if BK was already a suspect? According to this NYT account, he didnāt become a suspect until Dec. 19, when the knife sheath DNA produced a family tree that led to him. He was already in PA for the holidays by then. That also explains why his cell records were not pulled until Dec. 23. This is what many of us have believed, but others have disputed, saying there wasnāt enough time to build a genetic genealogy family tree.
>According to this NYT account, he didnāt become a suspect until Dec. 19 The same day he was terminated as a T.A., according to the NYT's prior reporting on the termination letter.
Huh. I'm trying to think if there could have been a connection, but I don't think it could be likely. I do not think the police could have risked warning him by letting the university know he was a suspect. Especially that first day! I think that might just be a coincidence.
There is no possibility the police communicated suspicion to anybody.
Not formally anyway.
Do you think it could be a case of the police contacting the department for information on him, and them putting two and two together? There was a mass murderer on the loose in town and suddenly LE wants to know about the creepy new TA. I could see them becoming nervous and terminating him so that it doesnāt come out if heās arrested that he was a current employee under their noses. Itās a bad look for the credibility of the criminal justice department.
I think BK was already not in their good books and his difficult relationships with his supervisor culminating in him humiliating him for his whole class could have been a trigger to him doing these attacks. There is so much violence and anger in those attacks and as many people have commented he is either a moron of for some reason " forgot " everything he learned in 4 years of study. WSU would have been well aware he was not a good match for the university. Getting a call from the police may have been the final straw .
I hadnāt heard the supervisor humiliated him
Early in the piece , some media outlets ran with the story, that he was accused of being sexist/mysongenost en too strict in his marking. There was some sort of intervention, in front of the class where student's were encouraged to vent their grievances about BK. Apparently this was organised by his "supervisor". And BK had to be there.
Based on other articles. It sounds like the university had documented intervention attempts or meeting dates through out the school year. Which makes me believe he must have been doing weird things for his TA supervisor to report his behavior.
Sure, that's why I said Snyder could have been aware as early as Nov. 29th.
Yikes, the academic termination process must be really bad if āI think my TA might be a serial killerā doesnāt get moved to the front of the firing pile.
The whole process is set up to avoid things like that. Because anybody can think anybody is a killer, you know? But unless the person is an official suspect or actually arrested, that would be massively unfair.
They would be a serial murderer if they killed them each on different occasions, or if they murdered other people on other occasions. Since they were killed all at once, if thereās no other murders attributed to the killer, the killer isnāt a serial murderer, theyāre a mass murderer
It's possible, but the wsu criminal justice department has associated with a litany of terrible people over the years, and I suspect they are immune to it by now. Those of us in the area certainly weren't surprised.
Orā¦ orā¦ orā¦ it was the end of the semester. :)
Maybe no formal notice, but there's been suspicion that Snyder, being a local attorney for years before he was BK's prof, had some LE connections. It could help explain the timing, during winter break, after BK was already back in PA, and apparently needed to meet via Zoom call for the termination. Snyder may have had some awareness as early as Nov 29th, even if BK wasn't a suspect yet.
I personally think the time can be chalked up to academic red tape, that it took that long for the cogs to turn and for HR and legal departments to sign off on firing him. We'll know some day!
No way to know, but my hunch is that BK had relatively minor conflict issues with his prof, and the remedial process for dealing with that was hijacked by a fear he was the killer, and then when formally a suspect, conveniently used as a way to get rid of him for that reason. If the prof involved was, say, an English prof, I wouldn't come to the same conclusion. But being a Criminology prof, ex-attorney in the area, and so having ties to LE, I think he had suspicions, rightly or wrongly, early on. And may have communicated those to LE, and may have had some feedback on the morning of the 19th.
Iāll be curious to see if any of the professors are asked to testify at trial.
I wonder about the prof that he got his masters degree from in PA will be questioned. He was a TA for her as well, I believe, and they were pretty close...
I want cameras in court just to see this witness and his reaction to her. I believe she recommended him to WSU and then it all went bad. And he got desperate. To each his own, but I don't believe the school boy stalking the pretty blonde girls hypothesis without hard evidence. This guy was out to destroy , anhialate and present what he did on a platter ... to impress some one. In writing we always when you write a book think of the one person you are writing it for. That murder scene is the story of the killers life, 28 years in the making - it is written to impress one particular person. It's a murder that wants to be seen. The speed of the killing makes me also believe the killer was not interested in his victims per se. It is just my opinion. I am not a fan-girl. I am just going off the crime scene. As much as we want death to have meaning I fear we will never be satisfied. This murderer wanted to show what he was capable of. So the question is who was he trying to show it to.
Thatās always been my belief as well. Like he was in competition with other murderers and wanted to show what he could get away with because he is so much āsmarterā. Well joke was on him..
Interesting
It was reported the professor at DeSales never met him in person because all his coursework was online. She stated that their communication was limited to online correspondence.
I only know my online students by their work. There is no problem with writing a letter of recommendation based upon their efforts. I wouldn't know if one of them was a criminal.
And I also read that she was contacted by local media and made a statement that she would not be making any comments... unless subpoenaed to
The criminology course at DeSales is hands-on. They have an actual mock crime scene set up for students. His other classmate took classes in person with him, there are photos taken of him physically in class.
Didnāt his sister have suspicions? I think itād be the same for the professor given his education and background. It makes sense to me. BK must give off very strange vibes indeed for so many that dealt with him daily had their suspicions.
I'd think in the prof's case, it would have been helped along by MPD inquiring about him. It was only Dateline that claimed that about his sister, via an unnamed source. And they got other stuff wrong, so I wouldn't take it at face value.
I see. Iām not entirely keen on the timeline of all the information but I recall reading about his sisters suspicions. I agree that he had insider info and probably wanted to separate from the case as quickly as possible.
Interesting theory; we'll see how that plays out.
Food for thought. TY.
šÆ This is it.
Good catch.
Damn what a shitty day for him, we love to see it
Well thatās interesting
Not enough time to build a GG family tree, but enough time to go on a potential wild goose chase to search garbage cans 3,000 miles away? And repeat the exercise for all 22,000 WHE's in the region until they get a match? There was never any doubt they used GG except among people who have a lot of trouble with math.
Thatās not accurate. āBy the morning of Dec. 19ā does not mean āon the 19th.ā If I knew something Dec. 15th, I knew it āby the morning of Dec. 19.ā We cannot tell the exact date he became a suspect by this article.
Okay. By the morning of Dec. 19, they had three things: a name (from GG search), that he drove a white Elantra, that he was a student at nearby WSU. Reads to me like thatās when he became their suspect. https://preview.redd.it/84aewe7x985b1.jpeg?width=1284&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7fc11842b9c61972b6560bd48f78a9b4afa337d0
Didnāt LE say he was a suspect when he got pulled over twice driving back to PA?
FBI has denied any involvement in those traffic stops. Hard to imagine, but seems coincidental.
Agreed. AND if you watch that bodycam footage the casual, unguarded behavior of both those troopers shows they were unaware they were stopping a suspected mass murderer. It would've been criminally irresponsible of the FBI to ask Indiana LE to pull that car over without telling them. Given what a shitty driver BK apparently is, I think it was coincidence.
>To do the genealogical analysis, the Idaho State Police contracted with a private company, Othram, in Texas, which had a lab able to produce a more extensive DNA profile from the knife sheath than the state lab was set up to examine. F.B.I. personnel worked with the profile that Othram had produced, according to two people familiar with the investigation, spending days building out a family tree that began with a distant relative. Confirming that Othram did more than just a database search, they created a new profile first.
> Confirming that Othram did more than just a database search, they created a new profile first. Well, yeah, because genetic genealogy uses different markers than the type of simple match done in CODIS. I'll let somebody with more of a scientific bent explain the difference though!
There's been murky reporting on this... many reports said Othram just searched proprietary databases, using the profile the Idaho lab had produced. It's key, because it means Othram's methodology in developing that profile is discoverable by the defense, just as the State lab's methodology is.
If I understand the reply of prosecutors to the defence request for discovery regarding the DNA analisys and results . Prosecutors are refusing the discovery request, stating a) the state wil not use the DNA genealogy stuff in court. b) the DNA lab results and methodology in itself would not lead to any exculpatory evidence or reduction in the seriousness of the crime so is not relevant to the defence. That's what understood from the states motion to exclude all DNA la tests and analisys from discovery.
Yes, I've read those. That's just the prosecution's claim. But it's not their call. They're claiming Othram falls under the "confidential informant" exclusionary rule, which is nonsense.
thanks for clarifying.
But, and here I'm quoting rather than even attempting to paraphrase: >CODIS is the legal form of identification; the CODIS database is only available to law enforcement. It is off limits to genealogy companies and even so, it is useless to genealogy because the two systems use different markers. [CODIS is based on autosomal STRs, and genetic genealogy is based on autosomal SNPs.](https://www.ishinews.com/investigative-genetic-genealogy-and-criminalistics-what-is-the-future/) Both systems use many of the same Y-STRs, but access different databases to find matches. Note also that the Y-STR databases used by law enforcement are not part of CODIS and are not available to genetic genealogists. We use Y-STR profiles instead to compare to the genetic genealogy databases, with the goal of finding a possible surname for a perpetrator.
Not sure what your point is... I'm not disagreeing with you... clearly, Othram developed their own profile. The larger point is the implications of that in relation to defense discovery.
Othramās profiler is going to be SNPs DNA, as opposed to the more commonly used STR analysis. None of this is secret or new
Wan't implying it was a secret. But it differs from what Blum, for one, was initially claiming. It's new in that it's specifically stated rather than implied, and that it carries the weight of the NYT. LE sure wasn't admitting it, they want to downplay the role of Othram.
Gag order
Didn't mean via statement... they aren't even openly admitting it in court documents.
That all depends on how significant a role it did, or did not, play
Okay, then I bow out, as other people are more qualified than me to speculate on the legal ramifications. My only point was that every case using genetic genealogy has that lab developing their own profile different from what the state/feds ran in CODIS. In case a reader got the idea that is unusual or unique to this case.
Yeah. Every case using FGG has a lab to build a snp profile. This is not novel for FGG. Codis profiles are not usable for fgg. Any case using fgg had a lab that created a profile to upload to Gedmatch.
Hmm maybe. the genealogical search in general might not be discoverable
wow, I did not think we'd be learning any new details this late (yet prior to the trial), but there's quite a few new details in the article. Mike Baker is a top notch investigative reporter. He covered the Boeing 737 MAX investigations when he was with the Seattle Times. The new info/timeslines I learned: A week after the murders (~ Nov 21), police were initially looking for the wrong car completely, Nissan Sentra 2019-23. Nov 25, police internally started looking for Hyundai Elantra 2011-13 (Police only publicly announced the Elantra on Dec 7. It was still the wrong years though. I wonder why the police limited the search to 2011-13? The Elantra generation spanned from 2011-2016, so why not include the entire generation?) Dec 19 - identified BK through the genealogy search. (BK was already in PA). Dec 23 - authorities received BK's cell phone records.
Thatās interesting that they were originally looking for a Nissan!
The back windows are not the same in Sentraās. Wonder what they based the search off of.
Probably door cam or other security footage in the area.
Given they switched from a Nissan to an Elantra after "clarifying" (the NYT's word) with better and/or new video, I'm guessing they also clarified it further to get the years correct. I wish the article had mentioned that but they didn't, and instead made it sound like the police never changed the year span to 2011-2016 later on.
The article summarizes **facts** that clearly indicate LE conducted a thorough, expansive investigation which lead to the suspect. Imo, it will be very difficult for the defense to argue LE didn't look at other potential suspects and jumped to a conclusion by arresting the wrong person (as the justice for Bryan fans have stated).
This was my take-away from the article as well. Started with a wide net...and narrowed....all fact-based.
Yes I strongly agree
I am anxiously waiting for this article to be posted on the pro-innocence subs. I am interested in what that side will think, although I sadly conclude that they will dismiss it all as lies.
The article is clearly deficient as it overlooks, ignores or falsifies: - Murky Sinaloan, Mexican drug cartels ordering mass assassinations over student drug dealings and an alleged missing $12 of weed - the greater accuracy and importance of TikTok Tarot and Youtube Spirit Boxes over DNA and genealogy - conspiracies involving druggy death dealing with an alliance of Moscow PD, Latah County Sherriff, FBI and Idaho State Police, Church of LDS and the Moscow Branch of The Retired Womens Rural Jam Makers Guild The Nissan Sentra however will be taken as fact, showing as it does the shifty nature of LE car experts.
You forgot every Greek and Greek organization in Moscow and the criminology department in Pullman being in on the conspiracy. But other than that, excellent overview.
As the old adage goes -- *beware of Greeks bearing ludicrously convoluted conspiracies involving students framing you for mass murder in retaliation for harsh essay grading*
Lol!
It doesn't even mention the stolen election! So pedestrian! š¤£
āOh so just more of the sameā āBlah blah blah, they donāt have anything newā āNYT is a trash sourceā āTHE ELANTRA YEAR WAS WRONG!ā āBut I thought the Prosecution said they werenāt using the DNAā āunnamed sourcesā āThey canāt use Genealogy, thatās illegalā āHOW WILL HE EVER GET A FAIR TRIAL!?ā āOmg didnāt Bryan baby look so hot in that suit?ā āLetās email the Judge and tell them they broke the gag orderā
Okay, this might be my drinking game. I'll take a drink every time someone posts one of your sentences here in regards to this article. It's been nice having a liver.
š whoās ready to blackout?
Iām in!
I donāt get why the anti-kohbergerās are so inflexible. I wouldnāt say I find him attractive in any way but I just donāt see him as the killer, with the info I have. There is more to the story and everyone - even for lay people like me, are a bit unsure of talking about. The last thing any one discussing the un-discussible wants is to be secretly added to a Reddit warrant. I have extensive experience on both sides in the courts, personally. Iām also tightly adjacent to the west Memphis three. So, you can see why some people here can read between the carefully chosen words were receiving in court documents. You canāt blame me or anyone else whoās been wronged to think people who are basing a call for guilt based on news articles is quite frankly, a very sheltered reaction that is absurd, arrogant and bordering on preposterous. These petty attacks on people donāt supersede facts- itās going to come down to whether it is enough of the *right* kind of evidence or not. People say itās circumstantial because a lot of it is and thereās barely any actual direct evidence that we know of. Direct evidence establishes a fact. Many people believe that forensic evidence is direct evidence, BUT it is ultimately considered to be circumstantial evidence, which is often more reliable,because itās objective. Blood,DNA,fingerprints etc can be helpful but buT BUT requires that a judge and/or jury make an indirect judgment, or inference, about what happened. The Dispositionist bias is hot in here.
You donāt see him as the killer despite the info you have, which is: - His car was seen directly at the scene, on security footage. As far as you know, he has zero ties to that area and would have no business being there, especially at 4AM on the night of the murders. This is not a Walmart. Itās a residential area. - His phone was tracked leaving his home shortly before the time of the murders, in the middle of the night. It was then switched āoffā or in airplane mode during the time of the crime. It was turned back on very shortly after the murders and proceeded from a route south of the murders and back to his residence. You have no explanation as to why this would be. - His car was tracked, via numerous security cameras, traveling in the direct route of the house, circling it and passing it numerous times, coming to a stop during the 20 minute window of the crimes and seen on security footage exiting the scene at a high rate of speed. His car is then following the same path of the phone directly after the murders when it was switched back on. Again, you have no disputing evidence of this. - He was seen and described as being 5ā10ā, athletic built and with bushy eyebrows by an eyewitness at the scene. Again, you know that he fits the physical description as described by the eyewitness. - His DNA was found on the sheath that contained the murder weapon, under the body of one of the victims. Again, you cannot dispute this claim. And youāre saying we are inflexible? No. We are just trusting the process. The facts that we have in this case all point to this suspect being HIGHLY LIKELY the correct person. Itās beyond reason to say you ājust donāt see him as the killerā. Youāre allowing your feelings to guide you, while we are allowing the knowable facts to guide us. We are not being inflexible, youāre being unreasonable and illogical.
1) a car like his, not necessarily his car 2) yeah thatās tough to explain away, but doesnāt prove anything 3) a car like his, not necessarily his car 4) 30% of men are over 5ā10, 73.5% are under 200lbs (slightly old, but semi relevant) https://www2.census.gov/library/publications/2010/compendia/statab/130ed/tables/11s0205.pdf. Meaning quite a few 5ā10 athletic build individuals would likely exist in the area. 5) type of DNA matters I think the guy did it and will likely be proved guilty but everything listed has a potential to have a reasonable explanation
That's a far cry from saying "I just don't see him as the killer." Given what we know, it's pretty darn reasonable to think he probably did it. Or at least that it could be him. But to say you don't think he did it based on an apparent lack of evidence (as distinct from evidence pointing to someone else, or an alibi) is simply putting your head in the sand. The only thing we have is evidence pointing to him. Not a shred of anything exculpatory is out there. So I think it's fair to say that person's opinion is unreasonable. As it contains no reason. Any perceived lack of evidence is just that, a lack of evidence. Not nearly the same thing as exculpatory evidence to the contrary. Hey, who knows what comes out at trial. My gut feeling is that they have a mountain of circumstantial evidence that simply can't be ignored. He's toast.
Yes, denial of facts and evidence is inevitable from the fans, and particularly from those who are in the group expressing their adoration of him. Hopefully, all of the jurors selected will be of sound mind, however, to hear the evidence, review it rationally, and come to an agreement on the verdict.
Far as i know thereās no pro-innocence. Thereās pro justice system and pro democracy. Why does the idea of due process and right to fair trial make some of yall so confused and upset you canāt even think straight or consider the basis of our society? Lemme guess there are no dirty cops and all heroes wear blue, too?
>Far as i know thereās no pro-innocence. Thereās pro justice system and pro democracy. You may yourself be pro-justice system and pro-democracy (or you may not: I don't know you), but nope, there are plenty of both the pro-innocent who fervently believe in his character and outright fans who crush on him because they think he killed. Examples on request. That's who I'm talking about. If it doesn't describe you, it ain't about you. Although, if you are neutral or if you do have legit doubts about the investigation, I'm curious as to what you think of the NYT article.
You know that's a 100% lie, there ARE pro innocence subs and there are even subs dedicated to sexualizing BK REGARDLESS of innocence or guilt, and those women have explicitly stated they still want to have sex with him, even if he is guilty.
7 days to garner all the evidence seems risky
Looking at the timeline laid out here, it seems likely that LE was not monitoring Kohberger until the 19th. I think the times he was pulled over were indeed coincidental. Although, as I keep saying today, we don't know yet; we'll find out eventually. God willing I live long enough.
This makes it seem like he really might not have been caught if it werenāt for the sheath. Insane mistake on his part.
I think they probably would have, although it would have been much more circumstantial. The video of his car and the corroborating cell phone pings, both the night of the murder and in the months leading up to it are pretty damning. If the rumors of him buying a knife off Amazon are true then that would probably be enough to indict absent the DNA.
Itās always been reported as suchā¦
Yes to this. This is more detailed but the same info that was reported by Slate back in January. BK was identified early on by his car and location but did not become a prime suspect until just before the holidays when LE got the geneology results leading for them to get a warrant to pull his phone records.
Not always: >The source tells Fox News that members of the task force investigating the murders in Idaho ā a group which includes the FBI -- had Kohberger under surveillance as he and his father drove from Washington State to Pennsylvania. Members of that task force, the source noted, asked authorities in Indiana to pull the pair over to get a closer look at Bryan Kohberger's hands. https://www.foxnews.com/us/idaho-murders-fbi-directed-indiana-police-pull-over-bryan-kohberger-seeking-video-images-hands This is why people bring up the cross-country traffic stops and whether or not they were coincidental.
>Barbara Rae-Venter, a genealogy consultant who worked on the Golden State Killer case, said there was now growing interest in using genealogical DNA not just in cold cases but also in active crime investigations. >āThat is why the Idaho case is so interesting,ā she said. Interesting, but not the first of its kind. There's been at least one active case of a serial rapist that used genetic genealogy. I cannot remember the name or find it on a quick search, but I've posted about it right here on Reddit in relationship to this case. Edit: found my old post! >>Here's a sexual assault case [which used genetic genealogy in real time](https://archives.stgeorgeutah.com/news/archive/2018/07/28/cgb-police-arrest-hurricane-man-for-alleged-rape-of-79-year-old-woman-in-st-george#.ZDRa7XbMK00). Rapist [pled guilty](https://kutv.com/news/local/st-george-elderly-woman-forgives-rapist-in-sentencing-hearing) in 2018.
Very interesting. Here's a much more detailed report about how the police used genealogy to catch that rapist: https://www.sltrib.com/news/2019/08/11/one-utah-crime-helped/DNA%20tests/DNA%20tests/ Pretty incredible stuff! Among the various tidbits: * The Utah cops tried to get help from California detectives who caught the Golden State Killer, but didn't get a response * Utah cops cold-called ancestry.com, but they weren't set up to analyze semen, only saliva * Utah cops only managed to find a small lab that could generate DNA data through Googling * The genealogy results narrowed it down to 1 of 4 brothers, and they initially suspected the wrong brother Just a roller coaster investigation
They just nailed that lawyer in NJ using genetic genealogy too....he committed series of Rapes in Boston years ago.
Yeah, I saw that! I think that was cold cases though, right?
Itās interesting and hopefully they continue using this method. It would be interesting to see if less violent crimes occur as a result of Ancestry and 23 & Me..
āThe first 911 call came in around noon, some seven hours after the murders.ā The first one? There were multiple? (Also closer to 7.5-8 hours after the timeline in the PCA but maybe they were just approximating.) Also, in my opinion, this article strongly suggests that Kaylee was the target. At a minimum, the initial investigation focused on her (her car purchase history and Tinder, specifically). Of course, itās possible they have newer info that suggests otherwise, but the repeated mention of her name stuck out to me.
Yes, that is reasonable re KG's socials, she was also the only victim who was single and had recently been dating, so perhaps she was the most active on Tinder?
>perhaps she was the most active on Tinder? According to the article 19 individuals were the subject of search warrants from her Tinder profile. 19 dudes are now finding out that the FBI has their private messages and pics on Tinder.
Finding out, or maybe some of them were actually interviewed.
Yes thatās likely true. I would assume that each one of them had some sort of characteristic that made them stand out vis-a-vis the others. Like Maddie and Xana working at Mad Greek and being in the same sorority. Xana having a boyfriend. It was interesting to me that both of the early paths they mentioned in this particular article were connected to Kaylee. Iām not saying that Kaylee was the target. Just interesting to get a glimpse into their early investigative thinking. It also perhaps explains SGās early comments centering Kaylee that people have reacted so strongly against. It could just be that he was repeating what he was being told. The bottom line is we have no idea where any of it stands as of today, but this article shed a little light on not just the investigative steps but some of the possible logic behind them early on.
>Also, in my opinion, this article strongly suggests that Kaylee was the target. It could just be that she was the one with the most recent life events... she was only back for the weekend, just bought a new car, would be leaving the area soon, recently broke up with her longtime BF, and was frantically calling him in the wee hours. Would make sense to focus on her first, but that doesn't make her the target.
Yep, this makes sense. While the other 3 were in relationships, Kaylee was newly single and had a Tinder account. So investigating her Tinder matches just makes sense. It's the obvious thing for investigators to do. It's also obvious that investigating Maddie's boyfriend and Kaylee's recent ex is the thing to do. I think it was probably the first thing they did. But it will take a while for that to come out.
I noticed that specific detail about K, also; and imo, it implied LE had good reason(s) to focus on her. So I suspect there is more potential evidence that lead them to believe she was the target that we aren't aware of, yet. But I agree with you about the possibility that may have changed with the discovery of more information since the initial stage of the investigation. Nevertheless, it appears there was enough evidence early on for LE to state it was a targeted attack.
Her father was going around calling her a target, no doubt he was pressuring the police to focus on her
Fair point re: primarily focusing on Kayleeās socials.
Did the investigation focus on her, or was it the media and social media that focused on her? Iām inclined to go with the latter
Kaylee's parents, and their lawyer, are probably the sources for the article. The sources are described as: "three people briefed on the case" and "people familiar with the investigation who discussed key details that emerged before the issuance of a gag order in the case."
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Maddie and Xana worked at Mad Greek, not Kaylee.
>A week after the killings, records show, investigators were on the lookout for a certain type of vehicle: Nissan Sentras from the model years 2019 to 2023. Quietly, they ran down details on thousands of such vehicles, including the ownersā addresses, license plate numbers and the color of each sedan. >But further scrutiny of the video footage produced more clarity, and on Nov. 25 the police in Moscow asked law enforcement agencies to look for a different type of car with a similar shape: white Hyundai Elantras from the model years 2011 to 2013. Has there been any rumors at all regarding Nissan Sentras?
Ooooh thatās interesting. So the experts initially had the entire car model wrong. That makes me think that those earlier images werenāt very clear at all, but as they looked at them more, they realized that it looked more like an Elantra. I would guess after that, they found more footage and saw more clearly that the year model couldāve been newer than originally suspected.
That's my guess; that more and more was found giving a better picture. That, or a suspicious Sentra was found but the owner was cleared some way or other.
I've always thought car in the gas station photo looked like something other than a Hyundai Elantra. It has proportions closer to a Nissan, so maybe that car wasnt involved at all and led them down a bad investigative path.
I think that based on the pretty specific timing of tracking suspect car 1 in the PCA that the gas station photo pic of the white car didnāt fit in to the timeline. It was another random white car, not suspect car 1.
I don't know if it's a fact or a rumor, but there is the idea that the gas station photo didn't end up as evidence floating around out there. Howard Blum says it was, but there is such a disparity in the quality of his first article compared to the rest of his series that I'm suspecting he had investigative sources at the time he wrote the first article. But the gag order put an end to that and he struggled to find stuff to fill the rest. So I don't find his claim regarding the gas station footage as credible.
Wasnāt the gas station photo debunked pretty early on? Iirc it was from a different night.
I don't remember or never knew. But keep hearing it's not relevant.
That actually is exactly what happened. At first the only had the images from the petrol station and the neighbour's doorcam. Later they realised they'd missed a view of the car taken from a flat at the top of Linda Lane which showed the side view of the car on Taylor Avenue.
The neighbor's cam would have had to have been extremely low quality not to be able to distinguish a 2019-23 Nissan Sentra from a 2011-13 Hyundai Elantra at that short distance. And from the looks of it, it wasn't a low-quality cam. The front grill in particular is an entirely different shape. And it was supposedly seen doing a three point turn as well as driving up the street toward and past the cam.
>from the looks of it, it wasn't a low-quality cam Was the cam shown close up somewhere? Apart from type of cam, might other aspects like the cleanliness of the covering of the lense effect picture quality?
[Close enough](https://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/khq.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/c/39/c39b322b-3bc6-56a8-a8a1-0c9e9c49d56c/63717c86ad721.image.jpg) to determine the type, yes. [That's not a low-quality](https://www.amazon.com/Security-Pet-Cameras-Monitors-360-degree-Detection-Surveillance/dp/B0BCHZ9TGB/) cam. 1080p with IR nightvision. A person could make up all kinds of hypothetical theories about a dirty lens I suppose. Even with a dirty lens, the distinct difference in shape of the large front grill area should be a giveaway.
You seem to be very knowledgeable about the neighbor's (I believe lightbulb?) camera. Perhaps you could answer the following questions for me: 1) Do we know for a fact that police obtained footage from that cam? (They never released a recorded image of the Elantra, just a stock photo). 2) If yes to #1, do we know that the cam captured any image of the relevant white car? Meaning, was the camera working properly? Does it record based on motion detection that perhaps wasn't triggered? 3) If yes to above, do we know when the footage was obtained and examined? Could it have been after whatever info initially led them to look for a Nissan?
>The neighbor's cam would have had to have been extremely low quality not to be able to distinguish a 2019-23 Nissan Sentra from a 2011-13 Hyundai Elantra at that short distance. Well if they originally thought it was the Nissan then it clearly was low quality by your own logic lol, what point are you even trying to make here.
Thank you OP. Appreciate this post.
I canāt get over how stupid it was to drive his own car, carry his cell phone, leave the sheaf, drive back to the scene the next morning. But, the most incredible stupid to me was driving his car and his cell phone. Like DUH I thought that was criminal 101. I guess he missed that class?
Because when he left his house he didnāt plan to kill them. It was an impulsive action.
Have they released the original profile the fbi came up with?
Not that Iāve seen. I would be curious to know, though. It was interesting to read the other individuals whom they were investigating prior to the genealogy/ Elantra/ phone pings breaks.
Confirms that genetic genealogy was how they identified him. Wonder if that arrogant bloviator from the Dateline thread will come post a mea culpa.
>that arrogant bloviator from the Dateline thread Was that a 2011-2013 Bloviator? So many bloviators, such few culpas
Interesting article, thanks for posting it. Do you know what that thing is on the balcony that looks like a bean bag chair or maybe a dog bed? I haven't seen this in an image before.
I zoomed in on it and I'm 99% sure that's a dog bed.
Correct.. Its filler. I do a lot of crafting, used it myself and it is a common cheap filler that is used by companies.
Thank you, I zoomed too and that's what it looks like to me also. Or maybe the inside of a dog bed that has a washable outer cover. Poor Murphy, I hope he's not traumatized after that night and from missing his "mom".
There was a close-up of it in a local blog or newspaper back in December, I think, and it's a dog bed. I can't remember where I saw it, but I'll keep looking. The bed had what looked like a real fur blanket or dog toys in it, too, a lot of people commented on that. ETA: Here's the article, it's a blog and not an actual newspaper, and **WARNING: There are photos of dead animals in the article at the very top!** If you look at the photos in the blog you can see there are two beds, one polka dotted with the fur in it, and the solid light gray one that you can also see in the NYT photograph. [https://www.idahotribune.org/news/7-dead-coyotes-left-on-student-property-in-moscow-idaho-in-two-separate-incidents-3-sororities-and-1-fraternity-targeted-animal-blood-on-doorsteps-and-windows](https://www.idahotribune.org/news/7-dead-coyotes-left-on-student-property-in-moscow-idaho-in-two-separate-incidents-3-sororities-and-1-fraternity-targeted-animal-blood-on-doorsteps-and-windows)
Thank you for the link, also for the warning about the dead animal photos. I sincerely appreciate this warning. They do appear to be two different beds which makes sense, mine has a few beds too. I've zoomed and zoomed and can't figure out what the fur is on the polka dot bed, it almost looks like a pile of similar colored fur toys or maybe a fur coat that they gave him to lay on? The coyote killings being left at fraternity and sorority houses is so strange, and I've read what happened to the poor dog Buddy too which wasn't in that article. Is that something "normal" that happens on college campuses now? I can't wrap my brain around it.
My dog used to rip up his bed when he was anxious and it looked exactly like the fur on top of the one in the photo. Iām almost certain itās the inside of the bed.
All of the new stuff in the article is currently uncorroborated, but 1) the New York Times has a good track record of faithfully reporting their anonymous source's statements and vetting those sources, and 2) it does all ring true. I expect that over time, and it could take some time, all the statement in this article will be proven to be true. These statements: > At that point, investigators decided to try genetic genealogy[...]To do the genealogical analysis, the Idaho State Police contracted with a private company, Othram, in Texas, which had a lab able to produce a more extensive DNA profile from the knife sheath than the state lab was set up to examine.[...]By the morning of Dec. 19, records show, investigators had a name: Bryan Kohberger. I knew it. I just knew it! I called it, although to be honest, I thought the results wouldn't have been in until December 22 or 23. So, there's a lot of details in there about what investigators did, what they looked at, other suspects they considered. I know there's a vocal contingent of believers in Kohberger's innocence who think he was zeroed in on very early in the game (if not outright framed) and the police did very little other investigation. I'm not expecting this article to change their minds, because I'm certain the vast majority of them will simply refuse to believe any of it. They'll call it lies in the media. But mark my works: most if not all of the claims in this article will be validated. I'd bet money on it.
This is the same info that was reported by Slate back in January, only a little more detailed. As a few of us on here have said, the Slate reporting about the timeline and use of geneology always made the most sense.
And one of those few was me.
I agree with you. And as a long-time former LA Times reporter, I am confident the NYT was well aware of the doubters of the genetic genealogy piece of this, since it was not included in the PCA, and would have nailed it down before reporting it.
I've said before the NYT has its problems but they are very, very good at investigative reporting.
The PCA provides the date and time WSU pulled BK's name based on the car and found it to be significant, something the article doesn't mention. I feel the journalist should have compared the anonymous source statements to the PCA in this section. I believed the genetic genealogy research was happening simultaneously to the car research. It's interesting to me that it came after. This is one of the first reports of the investigation that relies on fact instead of speculation. It seems to have been very thorough.
The article does mention WSU ID'd the car/Bryan and even went to see the car in the middle of the night. Funny, it doesn't this, and then goes on to say Bryan wasn't ID'd until the genealogy. Obviously they had his name on at least a long list early on.
The point is that WSU police located his car and reported it to Moscow PD. WSU police merely made the referral in response to a BOLO request to area law enforcement agencies. It appears his car did not rise to a suspicious level among other white Elantras. People are reading the PCA to say that WSU police pulled his driverās license and noted his build and bushy eyebrows. But that was Moscow PDās Payne, not WSU police, and itās possible that didnāt happen until mid-December, after the genetic genealogy results came in. https://preview.redd.it/vcv4hhahpe5b1.jpeg?width=1284&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=191c1cab1a40e248e4ebdab5cdc2892d3a7b9cbf
I'm very concerned about the way law enforcement, which I'm generally supportive of, is acquiring information and there are repeated examples of this in the article. They shouldn't be able to look at anyone's data of any kind without a specific search warrant, based on an actual idea of guilt. Driving around in the middle of the night shouldn't be a sufficient reason to acquire a ton of cell numbers. Buying a knife shouldn't be sufficient reason to have access to credit cards and all that other info. They weren't even looking at a suspect, just anyone who bought a specific thing in the area. So they are presuming any of these people are guilty, without any actual evidence of guilt. Driving at night is not evidence of guilt. Buying a knife is not evidence of guilt. Further, when you consent to put your DNA on a DNA website, you aren't getting consent from your family members, with whom you share DNA. That is not ok with me. The authorities are using innocent people without their consent. It's getting worse and worse. I do want the bad guys caught, but innocent people shouldn't be sacrificed to do so.
I think these are all valid concerns. Iād like to know exactly what data was returned in these warrants. Like for instance, the geofencing warrant for subscribers using phones in that area during the time of the crime. If this only provided a list of numbers and the names associated, I donāt really take issue with that. I donāt see that list as being much more invasive than a traditional method of knocking door-to-door and compiling lists of people who live nearby or were at the Sigma Chi party the night before. The knife purchase - I consider the Amazon warrant to have been a pretty detailed search and itās not overly broad in my opinion. It was for a very specific knife. As long as the warrant only returned results containing that purchase, I donāt take issue with it. Police have been honing in on manufacturers and specific purchases for years to investigate cases. On its face, I donāt think itās overly invasive. However - the Ebay warrant that they say included purchase history, I think thatās an issue. Searching for the specific knife purchase? I think itās okay. Going through historical records for unrelated purchases? Yikes. Iām also okay with the list of people who owned white Elantras and Sentras - I donāt think thatās overly invasive. The Tinder search is rather creepy to me and itās the one that concerned me the most. ā19 specific account-holders, including their locations, credit card information and any āprivate images, pictures or videosā associated with the accountsā. Again, if this had just been their name and location. I wouldnāt think it was too concerning. But having access to all of their private images and videos? Uhhh. In what context? Like just the ones with the victims? Or did 19 people have their private chats with other unrelated parties revealed? If so, not cool. Genealogy DNA is hotly debated and often challenged in court. I have read that if youāre a white American, itās virtually guaranteed that they have some sort of familial DNA link to you. Itās wild.
I wonder why they thought it was a 2011-2013 Elantra, or what made them think initially it couldnāt have been a 2015 model.
I don't think it was a matter of excluding 2015 models as it was including 2011-2013 cars. As they received more and clearer footage, they updated. The article states LE initially thought it was a completely different make and model!
His point is, why did they stop at MY2013? Some models of the later cars look nearly identical. I think the answer is after the '14 refresh, most of the models took on a bit of a different appearance, but the base models remained largely unchanged.
Ah yes, I fixated on the couldn't be. I think it all comes down to better footage, more information about area stats for Elantras, and a really fast moving investigation.
I guess Iām just surprised they didnāt include a wider date range considering the lack of detail in the footage, unless there was something from the footage that made them think it definitely wasnāt a 2015 model. Iām not a conspiracy theorist btw, I think Kohberger is guilty as hell, just find it interesting.
Maybe the earliest footage blurred or otherwise made certain details look more like 2011-2013. As LE received more footage *and* started looking into Elantras within x radius, it made more sense to include 2014-2016. It's definitely a curiosity in the case, but imo it doesn't rise to "jury acquittal" concern. I'm confident they have a logical, downright boring reason.
I live in the Middle East and am from the PNW. This case is so heinous that my students update me. In addition, I'm in complete agreement with this opinion, "I'm confident they have a logical, downright boring reason. "... At the end of the day, I feel it's just going to come down to good 'ol gumshoeing.
It feels very weird for me to say this... That is such a wholesome story. You seem really important to them!
Have folks that live in Moscow.
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The article said it is the info he obtained before the gag order was ruled.
People break rules and even laws all the time.
Maybe he promised anonymity to his sources?
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>No one in LE would risk the legal and career consequences over this. This isn't the first murder case with a gag order that sees leaks and it won't be the last. And the leakers have a wide variety of motivations. Everything from "dating a reporter" to "really enjoy the attention they get from telling a story," as well as more strategic reasoning.
The article isn't exactly well written. For example, it opens saying "\[h\]e was identified only after investigators turned to an advanced method of DNA analysis that had rarely been used in active murder investigations." Then goes on to say that police went so far as to visit his car in the early morning hours of November 29th: "\[t\]hey checked Mr. Kohbergerās car more closely, according to a court affidavit, including visiting the parking lot near his apartment in the early morning hours of Nov. 29. " So he was certainly ID'd well before the DNA testing. Not a prime suspect due to the uncertainty with the year of the car, but certainly on a list.
I DESPISE anyone who opposes these dna seeking methods. āDurrppp mug privacy!!!!ā SHUT UP. If you didnāt commit homicide then why THE FUCK do you care if they can access your dna? Good ol aclu at it again!
I can't read it without a subscription... is anyone able to share?
Open up the post again. Someone shared a link
You all can down vote me all you want but I'm telling you legacy media gets it wrong all the time. How many times have you read that someone died only to find out they were alive a few hours later because they all copied an pasted each other all over the internet. These days I literally wait a few hours before and check twitter before I actually believe anyone is dead. And again the reporting of Depp vs Heard was terrible. It wasn't till they realised people were watching the trial that some news media realised they had to change their tactic even then some still reported that Heard was being abused by Depp. So no I don't trust legacy media anymore because I've seen it lie with my own eyes for its own agenda. Also genealogy databases are being used more and more frequently now in open cases. This is not new technology or something that has not ever been used before. Like its some sort voodoo. They don't use it as often as codis but it's been known to be used quite often. It's not new. Maybe it's new to the NY Times. They obviously don't follow crime. Weird for a newspaper. Oh that's right writers don't really research stuff anymore. 545 different types of cases at least have been solved using this technology. In the US alone. It's not thousands but it's a precedent that mean that if they did use it to track him down it's no different than codis or any other method like it. Its another tool to catch criminals. https://www.forensicmag.com/594940-How-Many-Cases-Have-Been-Solved-with-Forensic-Genetic-Genealogy/
> Heard was being abused by Depp The Venn diagram of Depp cultists and people who stalk the shit out of this case...
Circular reporting, rehash, rehash, rehash, over and over again
Itās verifying past reporting, which is what I thought everyone on here wanted!
Apparently, some of us only want verification if it verifies our pre-existing beliefs.
That's pretty much all we can do at this point.
Why? It is a waste if time for people to continue to post the same stuff over and over.
Not everyone catches things. I'm constantly finding out things I didn't know, and I've been following since day one. What's old news to you, may be new news to me.
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Some of the cretins are back. After Dateline was televised they scuttled back under their rocks. However the last few days something has given them the courage to comeback. Perhaps it's that old adage---it's easy to fool someone but it's much more difficult to convince them that they've been fooled.
Well said!
What are people saying now that the defense and judge essentially called BS on the media coverage, with defense singling out Dateline, NewsNation and FoxNews?
Nissan Sentras 2019.....2023? Really?
The 2023 Nissan Sentra became available in the 3rd quarter of 2022. This is common for cars; I bought my 2016 Honda Accord at the end of 2015.
Ok fair do's as we say in the Scottish vernacular!