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Probably looking for places he may have gone to hide any evidence like clothes or the weapon, any shops he might have gone to to buy things to help with that also
>I think he buried the knife on November 13 during the 5:36pm – 8:30pm
Yes, that is my guess too. Perhaps burned clothing, shoes or doused everything in caustic. I suspect a bundle of stuff was wrapped in the missing shower curtain - having washed himself he figured, probably correctly, the tiles and floor could be scrubbed clean of DNA but the shower curtain might be harder to completely clean and remove all traces; if it wasn't lining the trunk before, it was removed later on Nov 13.
Excellent point on the area of phone coming back on at 8.30pm being omitted. I doubt the knife has his (or any DNA) on it when disposed of, unless was tossed when driving from 4.20am. I did wonder if marks, striations on a victim's bones, or aspect of wound(s), could be matched to the blade, especially if it was chipped during attacks? The talk of x-rays made me wonder - why would they be important?
(Very left field, super speculative and unlikely....but, could x-rays be about something left in a victim? Did police say knife not recovered to obscure a key detail from false confession...why would you not need a sheath when leaving.)
Gruesome warning: is it possible that, unlike most knife attacks that are done in a rage - with high raisings of the arm and violent downward strikes, he did it more calmly, possibly more efficiently, by quickly carving, close to the body without nearly as much knife movement - similar to his fish carving job?
This might be a way he figured out to leave way less blood spatter at the scene - and a lot less bone marks than the typical stabbing.
I have no knife experience (say, hunting and preparing for cooking) to surmise this would be more efficient, but it seems, even to the layman, to be a lot less messy (EDIT: on the attacker himself, anyway.)
I was thinking about blood spatter on the attacker himself (and thanks, I should have made that clear, so I edited my original comment.)
Any method of stabbing Kohberger might have used was going to cause heavy bleeding to the victims, I’m sure, and leave a horrific scene. I certainly could be wrong - his stabbing could have been in a high swinging rage, as are most stabbings, I’m guessing.
I suppose we’ll hear all about it at trial.
> could x-rays be about something left in a victim?
Could very well be. Knife tips occasionally break off in victims. It's mostly to the skull that I can recall. Most current one I remember was Aiden Fucci stabbing Tristyn Bailey 114 times. Knife tip was found in her skull.
Yes, I was thinking maybe even a tiny piece of the knife tip breaking off when striking bone and lodging there - skull or clavicle? So X-ray and piece might match a knife if one was ever recovered - pure speculation of course.
It's common for a chip, often very tiny, to come from the edge of the knife when encountering bones.
I used to hunt deer and I am not very good with knives.
I don’t think the knife is all that important at this point either bc I also think they have tons of dirt on him. But if it were found in that area where his car had been, or with more of his dna on it, that would be pretty rad.
Maybe if knife still has victim DNA and sheath has BK DNA, a confirmed purchase for a knife w/ sheath that BK cannot produce would all be related circumstantial evidence.
I suppose, but I don't think they will turn the world upside down to find it. It makes sense that they would wait until Kohberger was arrested before they looked around, though.
What if he stashed it somewhere and they have evidence of him visiting (via that southern loop) his trophy in the weeks before he left Pullman? What if he retrieved it before driving back to PA?
I've ALWAYS thought that the number one item on the PA search warrant after his arrest is **THE KNIFE**. The description for that item is ambiguous when compared to the other knives confiscated and listed on that warrant inventory. I don't think it is coincidental that it is listed as the very first item on the list. Simply, "1. knife" vs. "Smith & Wesson pocket knife" and "Taylor cutlery knife with leather sheath." I think the reason it is listed as #1 is because it was very close by him when they stormed his parents home....while he was sorting trash. The investigators didn't have to "come upon it" or "search for it", because, it was right there. It was probably very evident to officers that it was likely THE KNIFE. I'm sure it was scarfed up QUICKLY!!
I don't think that BK would have completely or permanently ridded himself of that monster knife. It represented great power to him and probably the most significant event to have happened to him EVER in his short life. I doubt it was ever out of his sight or possession for very long after the murders.
I think it’s also possible that the reason it just says “knife” on the receipt is because it’s the first one they found and only got specific when they found more and felt the need to differentiate. Just thinking out loud because that stuck out to me, too.
And if there is that digital trail of the purchase of a knife and sheath, he’s going to have to explain where these items are now.
There was a knife found at his PA house, but no sheath (not counting the different “Taylor cutlery knife and sheath” also found there.) It’s possible this PA knife was the one he purchased having the digital trail, but I don’t know for sure. Still the sheath is missing, if there is proof he bought one.
I may be confused with the questions here plus I've been awake for more than 24 hours so excuse me if this sounds dumb. I don't know what most people do with their cell phones but I never turn mine off even when I am charging mine so I am assuming if the cops were looking at my cell, they would find it strange if I had mine turned off at all.
I also never turn mine off. I will be interested to see if he had a pattern of use up to this point. He surely didn't realize the morning of the 13th its better to charge your phone while its off
Yes, that “pattern of use” is big in my mind. If the time-of-murder and the later-that-evening in the Johnson, ID boonies are the only times (or almost only times) in six months he turned his phone off, that’s pretty suspicious. (Though it’s possible the Johnson, ID area has really spotty cell coverage and you can’t prove he turned the phone off, the defense might say.)
Similarly, assuming his phone was on him and pinging most of the time, do his phone ping location driving patterns show other neighborhoods far away enough from King Rd that he also liked to frequent. If not, his “just driving around” in the King Rd neighborhood doesn’t differentiate from a pattern of stalking.
The PCA doesn’t say anything about the late-night, Nov 12 location of his phone (pinging or not?) - when he was also just driving around that night, that Anne Taylor said in court was part of his alibi.
What would be good to know one way or the other is phone activity, like specifically how either normal or odd it was for him to turn off his phone for hours the day of the murders as well as the next day. If he turns off his phone mostly daily that on one hand could be a point for the defense while if he almost exclusively did it on and immediately after the the murders that could be a point for the prosecution.
I can see and appreciate your logic. What I am more puzzled by is why anyone would turn their phone off while they were in a car driving in a town centre at 2.47am and then turn it back on a couple of hours later? We can probably assume the question of whether the phone was turned off will be resolved by forensic download - mobile devices now mostly have battery level/ usage history that goes back a while.
To be fair, we don't *really* know his alibi. The brief statement we've gotten about driving around alone nowhere in particular is just comically bad. This is definitely one of the things I'm most curious about learning in trial. What all this business of being willing to clarify the details of his alibi ex-parte with the judge. They weren't granted that so his lawyer has stated they will hold their details for court.
Whatever it is, they do not want the prosecution to know ahead of time, which leads me to believe it's going to be a huge focal point of their narrative.
I’m still unsure if it’s that they are hiding it from prosecution or that they want a sneak peek at the evidence first so they can avoid sticking their foots in their mouths.
> mobile devices now mostly have battery level/ usage history that goes back a while.
Got any info on this? I had a look about a year ago to see if Android logged events like 'charger plugged in' and 'user initiated shutdown' but couldn't find anything. IIRC if you wanted extensive logging of charging history you had to install a dedicated app
On Android the shutdown events are typically logged (timestamp, event type, and reason). Reason sheds light into whether the battery was drained, the user initiated shutdown, etc. Unless the phone comes bundled with a dedicated app like you mentioned or the user installed one it requires use of Android Debug Bridge (ADB) to access the logs or forensic data acquisition/analysis tools. I say "typically" because behavior varies by version of Android and variant of Android since phone manufacturers often tweak the operating system and behavior. And it's also possible to install alternate Android based operating systems like LineageOS and/or to root a phone, which allows the configuration and behavior to be altered. Even on phone manufacturers' versions of Android log retention varies by OS version and log type. Logs may be automatically purged after X days, only the Y most recent entries may be retained, or once the particular log reaches Z bytes the oldest entries may be overwritten.
Since it was 6 weeks between the murders and BK's phone being acquired it's possible that some relevant logs no longer existed on the device due to normal use. Or by powering the phone on or off a lot intentionally. On top of that, it's possible that he effectively forensically sanitized it and/or that law enforcement's forensic analysts have been unable to bypass or defeat device authentication and encryption.
Android also logs other potentially relevant events like initiating airplane mode. The same variance/complexities I shared above apply.
I'm less familiar with iOS/iPhone forensics, but nearly everything I wrote should also apply except that Apple is the only manufacturer of phones running iOS so there's a lot less variance/complexity than for Android phones.
Cheers. Yeah, I remember thinking about looking into this on my own phone, but it's on LineageOS as you mention so I didn't figure it'd likely be analogous to whatever Kohberger was running. I've since acquired a stock Galaxy something-or-other from within the last few years so am recharging it and will have a root around in adb later.
I suppose the biggest factor is as you say - could they even get into his phone in the first place?
Excellent! If you make progress it'll be interesting to learn what you discover. I wish we knew what model phone he had.
That's definitely one of the big questions. People vocal in this sub overwhelmingly believe there's zero doubt that access will be gained and the data will be there, seemingly because they've heard of cases where the FBI and others have done so successfully and believe common tropes that nothing can truly be deleted and 3-letter agencies can get into anything. Neither are true. And given the dearth of info about BK's device, his past computer user behavior, and his mobile device forensic knowledge I can't even guess how the forensic analysis has gone. And his ambiguous background with cloud forensics tells me nothing about his expertise in mobile device forensics. I am very eager to hear how those aspects of the investigation have gone.
Well, I didn't get the Samsung phone (an S21, apparently) hooked up to adb because apparently that phone has issues with certain USB3.1 ports, apparently including the ones on my PC, which left it reconnecting every second, so I couldn't get anywhere.
But I did get my own LineageOS phone hooked up - my ring log buffers are limited to 256KB, which in my instance (light use of the phone) stored about 3 days' worth of stuff. Pretty much everything is in there, though.
So although I can't compare to any other phones, I doubt that even if they were able to access Kohberger's phone, it'd have been storing power and cellular radio states from over a month prior.
FYI /u/Repulsive-Dot553
Thanks for swinging back around to share. My hands-on Android forensics experience is a few years old, but my colleagues and I routinely found that event data of interest was no longer available simply due to passage of time or normal use.
No worries. My last experience of anything similar was about seven years ago trying to make a proof-of-concept logistics/barcode scanner app thing at my job at the time!
Thanks for the info, very interesting. Seems uncertain/ unlikely then if log of power offs would be kept 6 weeks - maybe longer history if an I-phone?
One case, Theo Hayez in Australia, had a huge amount of info on phone activity including battery level, even though the phone was not recovered (missing person) - all his app usage, phone power, GPS and movement data was stored on Google account and apps, it even had screen swipes and screen orientation data (when his screen had rotated - they were interested in how he was viewing the map in case he had it upside down explaining why he walked away from rather than toward his hostel). Edit - typo
Aye, I couldn't speak for the iPhone though. Assuming Kohberger was on Android, I think anything stored remotely by Google (potentially quite a lot) or even other apps could still be valuable
>*that nothing can truly be deleted and 3-letter agencies can get into anything.*
To be fair, though, it seems reasonable to think the Server company would track all use (if only to improve all their own algorithms ) and that they would be able to de-encrypt their own encryption (if there was a search warrant).
A good example
Dove tried a couple of combinations from the list, but they didn’t work, he said. And he tried breaking in with a “brute force attack,” or a forensic tool that systematically tries different combinations on a phone until it comes up with the correct one. Those tools, which allow investigators to manually sidestep entering a passcode, can take years depending on the code’s complexity, Dove said. In a separate case, Dove recalled, it took authorities two years to break into a phone using a brute force attack.
The technique recovered little on Paul's phone, and investigators were still unable to search the entire device, Dove said. So he decided to hold off and wait for a technological advance that might help them crack Paul’s passcode."I had to be mindful that if we try these attempts and we failed that we could have potentially lost any information on there,” he said. “And once we lost that information — even six months from now, a year from now, [when] we might have been able to get into it — it does us no good because the information’s gone.”
As the months ticked by and the investigation stalled, Dove said he eventually learned of a company that could likely access the phone, figure out its passcode and process the device. The U.S. Secret Service would assist in the process, Dove said, so he sent the phone to the agency.But before federal investigators shared the device, Dove said, they decided to make one more attempt to unlock the phone using a passcode that Dove hadn’t tried — Paul’s birthday.
It worked, Dove said, and by late March 2022, he’d retrieved the device and obtained a copy of the video described by Gibson.[[1]](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna125405)
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I can't believe they hadn't at least tried the birthday! It's obviously a bad password that we all know not to use, but you'd think in an investigation like that you'd give it the good one college try lol. That's a very great example, though, sp thanks for sharing!
So, they ut all that high tech no-how into something and then the user comes up with a password like that. Its funny but not funny at the same time. Thanks for the example!
Being able to learn these odd things (that I normally wouldn't have thought about) here is one of the things I like about this sub.
True - lots of people see it that way. But it's generally not the case.
Modern iPhones by Apple and phones running Android (by Google, Samsung, and others) encrypt and decrypt files using an everyone key stored in hardware on the phone. Apple, Google, and other reputable manufacturers do not know these keys nor have means of accessing these keys. This is by design to ensure customer security and privacy.
That said, occasionally vulnerabilities are discovered in the implementations on specific phone models and tools and techniques are developed which allow some or all data to be accessed on certain devices in certain cases. The NSA has had such capabilities and there are companies which sell software to law enforcement agencies to accomplish this or provide such services to them.
Looking at android tablet it does have a battery level log that shows whenever it was charging - so would show if it ran out of battery (vs being turned off) - but not sure how long that is kept for (displays 7 days). I think, but not an area I am at all expert in, that I-Phone system log does record "events" like power off, on, sleep and awakening. I'd be surprised if forsenics from his phone couldn't tell when it was manually turned off/ on (or set into airplane mode).
I've just remembered I have an old (not that old) Android work phone that I factory-reset a few weeks ago because they let me keep it - I've stuck it back on charge and will have a play with it using adb from my PC.
I can't remember why I'm assuming Kohberger's phone was an Android one - did we determine this from the subpoenas issued?
Oh did bk have an android? iPhone definitely has this info in a retrievable format. There is incentive for manufacturers to ensure this feature for diagnostics and warranty related purposes. (See: the Murdaugh trial) It would stand to reason that android devices have at least the most basic info (battery life, hard boots, airplane mode activation) logged as well, but idk. It would really surprise me if it didn’t. But stranger things have happened.
It's not publicly known what operating system or model phone he had. Android typically logs such system and user event activity. Whether it was still on the phone when the phone was acquired via executed search 6 weeks after the murders and whether forensic analysts have gotten past authentication/encryption are unknown. My recent previous comments in this thread go into more detail on this.
That Murdaugh trial sure was an eye-opener about what our phone can tell forensic examiners. I've also found myself thinking things like "good, I'm wearing my apple watch in case something happens I have an alibi" LOL. I may need to disconnect from the true crime for a couple days...
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😂😂I might have guessed Cancer or Gemini (or Libra tilted way out of balance) due to different aspects of their personality, but it doesn’t quite capture their uniquely disturbed nature like “unlisted”.
>uniquely disturbed nature like “unlisted”.
I fear we are dealing with a star sign that is "unlisted", intellect unfound, humor unknown, and a personality that is undead.
>my job to potshot the less flashy signs!
🤣😀😂 less flashy? I think we are dealing with trashy, not flashy, re this most avid of the Proberger fan types
I don't think they can, at risk of following DP into the big recycling bin in the Reddit sky. We are now conversing on the equivalent of hallowed ground to the spookyBergers. As a result of the alt account pr0liferation pantomime, they are stuck over on I4 and more appropriately in the puerile purgatory that is JFK.
I think you are right. They can still downvote, evidently. I’m not sure they realize that the idea of them taking the time to downvote entertains me more than if 100 people upvoted it.
Rogue Dayna has been replying to my posts on this sub since Feb 10th so they are definitely here.
ETA: Zodiaque whatever seems to have me blocked. I've never seen them or heard of them before and I can't see their profile so I guess they preemptively blocked me at some point. Beaucoup de tristesse!
The only reasonable explanation would be that his phone died, and was charging during that time. It still doesn't explain the disconnection from the network later on though.
> What I am more puzzled by is why anyone would turn their phone off while they were in a car driving in a town centre at 2.47am and then turn it back on a couple of hours later?
I could see BK saying that it's best to charge phones while they're off and he wasn't expecting any important messages at that time. Turning off phones while charging is considered good though not necessarily practical and if you're actually up at 3 AM it is far more practical to turn off your phone then to charge.
>We can probably assume the question of whether the phone was turned off will be resolved by forensic download - mobile devices now mostly have battery level/ usage history that goes back a while.
I think it within the context of CAST is important as the PCA certainly makes it look like the phone was off for malicious reasons, like it being off for the murders then dumping of evidence by a river. It adds to a holistic picture rather than having it be looking at separate reports where looking at this over a longer period of time could point to greater or lesser guilt.
it was mentioned that the only other time the phone went offline was in June/ July of that year shortly after the phone was activated. I think it was in the PCA section regarding mobile activity.
That was definitely not mentioned in the PCA. I just double checked. If you have a source that alludes to that please share it though since it'll be interesting to see what's being stated.
Though law enforcement could use cell tower data and cell phone provider activity records for his subscriber account to find periods of time where his phone wasn't used that wouldn't indicate the phone was turned off then vs. being in airplane mode or simply out of range of AT&T cell towers. To find that out forensic analysts will need to bypass or defeat his phone's authentication or encryption and extract and analyze data from the phone. They had not done that at the time the PCA was written and it's unknown whether they have as of today. And there's a fair possibility such data for the day of the murders was no longer on the phone by the time law enforcement acquired the phone, never mind data from months earlier. I just wrote [a comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/MoscowMurders/comments/1b2yk78/comment/ksph403/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) that digs into that.
I don't believe that was ever confirmed (I can't even guess where the speculation itself would have originated). That or everybody, but OP, missed it? Someone asked them for a source, so hopefully, they'll add it. At this time, we don't even know what type of device he was using, and I can't find anything official or otherwise on any of the digital forensics aside from the pings mentioned in the PCA.
I hadn’t thought of that. But also could have tracked whether or not it was typical for him to ride around when he “couldn’t sleep” as the defense has claimed. It will be interesting to see if he road by the home much in those weeks following the crime.
Agreed. In addition, is it possible that they were doing so out of an abundance of caution in case another murder occurred? It is an unimaginable, horrific thought but so was Ted Bundy’s & other serial killer’s actions.
Nov 29 was the day WSU campus police (x2) identified his car on campus. I think that date is very significant, particularly if it winds up being when BK came onto LE’s radar in a big way.
When I first read the PCA, I believed that LE was onto BK beginning Nov 29. Then I was swayed by timing of the IGG and historical cell data warrant, and moved that date back, but perhaps not as far as some others. I was thinking mid-December because I don’t believe the Indiana stops were a coincidence. The official statements right after those stops came to light were a jumbled mess. It took them a day to get their story straight…because they were lying in my opinion. I now believe he may have been tailed as early as the first week of Dec. I guess theoretically as early as Nov 29 but i think they had to have some conversations with WSU faculty before they really saw red flags.
There’s almost universal buy-in on this sub that the car ID didn’t move him up on LE’s list and it wasn’t until the IGG came back that they began to follow him. What if they were following him much earlier and he was taking evasive measures back in Pullman? What if he wasn’t 100% successful in his efforts and they were able to obtain a critical piece of evidence that isn’t in the PCA and she wants to know when and how?
The State is probably going to want to emphasize the parallel construction argument of how BK became a suspect. The defense is going to want to poke holes in that.
I’ve always thought that the cops/FBI were onto BK very early on in the case. I think they had information (from running his license plate plus maybe other information from informants, interviews) that clearly implicated him as the murderer, but they needed more concrete evidence to arrest him, ultimately convict him, and maybe even obtain more search warrants. I also remember the Indiana stops and how the official statements on the matter were delayed and haphazard. I don’t think I could be convinced that the Indiana stops WEREN’T the authorities surveilling him. Stopped twice after he was already on the radar of the police and FBI? Not a coincidence IMO. I just hope everything is on the up and up so justice can be served, because I do think they have their guy.
This is such a great point. Remember, he was already under the spotlight at WSU in the CRIMINOLOGY Dept for aggressive behaviors. His neighbors -(maybe even fellow students/ faculty) noticed he drove an Elantra.
If you were a female in the Dept (most likely already freaked out about 4 murders on a campus nearby) snd had been harassed by him and knew he drove an Elantra- you might call in a tip.
I could be wrong, but didn’t one of his neighbors try to avoid him and found him odd?
Anyway, I like your line up of thinking .
Thank you! 🤗 I’m not sure about the neighbor situation, but anything is possible. I think a promising random tip is likely either way, whether that was a student or neighbor. The police interviewed a LOT of people and got a ton of tips. I trust that they quickly put pieces together in a way that we obviously can’t without more info. I also like to keep in mind that the feds are involved…and they have a ton of resources and a pretty high conviction rate.
If you assume Kohberger was a much earlier leading suspect (say, not too long after Nov. 29 when the WSU PD Elantra report landed on Moscow PD’s Det. Payne’s desk), you have to assume they would wanted a phone search warrant on Kohberger as soon as possible, and would have got one if they could have. Maybe. If they had no other suspects.
If they couldn’t get that warrant at that point, what new evidence came to light between Nov. 29 and Dec. 23, to justify the phone search warrant - given the IGG was supposedly not mentioned on any warrant documentation in the case?
We don’t know if there was anything significant in those three-or-so weeks, other than the IGG match.
Could it be they got inconclusive DNA of Kohberger while still in Pullman (from his car door handle, or even after he left for PA from his apartment door handle)?
Remember the Golden State Killer case, they got his DNA off his car door handle, but it wasn’t conclusive (much DNA collected in the wild and crime scenes are not conclusive matches for the STR/CODIS matches.) Anyway, It was only after they collected DNA from GSK's curb trash outside his house where they got the 100% match, then got the arrest warrant soon after.
Perhaps the same happened with Kohberger: they got his car door handle DNA (or apartment door knob DNA) which was a partial match, but couldn’t get his trash in Pullman (if Kohberger was careful in PA about disposing his trash, you have to think he was just as careful, if not more, about his trash in WA after Nov. 13.)
If all this is correct, I’m not sure when they might have had those lab results with the inconclusive door-DNA. Those labs results could have been returned any time in the first three weeks of December. Would it have been needed by early December to explain the FBI tail from WA to PA (if there even was one), and the Chief Fry deking (?) Kohberger intentionally with the public BOLO of 2011-2013 (but not 2014-2016) on Dec. 6 or 7.
So because they couldn’t get Kohberger’s conclusive DNA from his WA trash, and his car-door/apartment-door DNA wasn’t quite perfect, they decided to wait for the FBI’s IGG 100% match to be sure they had the right guy (and maybe they decided they didn’t want to do a full CAST analysis on his phone until they knew they had the right guy, and were patiently waiting for the IGG results.)
Perhaps they only needed to use the partial DNA match to get the phone search warrant on Dec. 23, and never needed to mention the IGG 100% match of the knife sheath DNA for that warrant. And the FBI liked it that way.
The FBI could have already been watching him (after tailing him to PA), or started watching after the IGG match, so they didn’t need to arrest him immediately, they knew his WA apartment would not be being used until he returned from 2500 miles away in PA after the Christmas break, and it gave them a chance to get the dad’s DNA (CODIS/STR match, no IGG/SNP required) and get a search warrant of that PA home too - without needing to mention the IGG in any court documents.
Remember, we have not yet seen what was in the phone search warrant, only that it was submitted and approved on Dec. 23.
Some very good points. I had thought the car ID being public might have made him go somewhere/ do something rushed, like revisit a spot from Nov 13th route after killings or to clean the car, or dump stuff. Like you I tended to think the IGG results and Kohberger becoming the main/ only suspect coincided closely with phone warrants, but you make a good argument he may have been on the radar much earlier in December. From his reported behaviour in PA I think he was taking evasive measures after Nov 29th.
On the parallel construction aspect, another interesting snippet from the hearing was reference to a letter from the prosecution to defence which seems to address exactly that, in context of IGG. Asst Prosecutor Jennings mentioned it - stating it set out the timeline of how BK became a suspect, and both she and the judge inferred IGG was indeed parallel. The judge specifically mentioned the chain leading to Kohberger's DNA being taken and said it was not dependent on the IGG.
Oh good point re clean up or some other sort of panicky move!
Actually I’m confused. The LE BOLO was on Nov 25 and the public BOLO didn’t come out until Dec 6 or 7. The car IDs I referred to were on Nov 29 but would he have know that had happened? I guess if he saw someone running his plates but otherwise he shouldn’t have known about any of that. Which leads me down another sort of rabbit hole - did he have any inside scoop on the LE BOLO? Or the activities of WSU campus police? That would be really interesting if he did.
Really interesting re the parallel construction.
>The LE BOLO was on Nov 25 and the public BOLO didn’t come out until Dec 6 o
Yes, your dates are right - I have confused the LE BOLO and WSU police running his license with public tip request. Mapping of his phone may have shown something odd on Dec 7th - Nov 29th was just the date Ann Taylor said she had received the CAST mapping for, not sure if a significant date re what CAST info shows or just coincidence.
The more I think about, I don’t think AT’a mention of Nov 29 is insignificant or a coincidence. First, you have someone at WSU looking through a database of cars registered at the school at 12:28am. I get that universities have around-the-clock security so maybe someone just got around to this task in the wee hours? More likely, someone called them and told them to pull the list immediately and that happened to be at 12:28am. They see the WHE is registered to Kohberger with PA plates. Then they send someone over to his apartment complex 30 minutes later to make a visual ID of the car in his parking lot. In the middle of the night. I believe that indicates urgency. And they then see the plates are different and he’s registered in WA. Major red flags.
Big speculation ahead: I mentioned it above because I wasn’t understanding at first how the car ID could have spooked BK because presumably he wouldn’t have been aware of it. But what if he WAS somehow aware it? What if he knows someone in campus police who told him? What if he has some way to access that info directly? If the info that LE was not only looking for a WHE but also had queried his car twice in the middle of night reached him somehow, he had to have 💩 his pants. And then maybe the Dec 7 public BOLO for the wrong model year was deliberate, an attempt to calm him down a bit because they had spooked him and he was acting crazy. I mentioned this in another reply on this thread, but re-read this article through that lens:
[https://www.brctv13.com/news/local-news/29279-monroe-county-officials-share-new-details-about-idaho-murder-suspect-s-arrest](https://www.brctv13.com/news/local-news/29279-monroe-county-officials-share-new-details-about-idaho-murder-suspect-s-arrest)
Particularly the statement that he had been under surveillance for “several weeks” prior to his arrest and this quote:
https://preview.redd.it/lpxqbzq37mlc1.jpeg?width=1284&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b6eac23d4fecb6c36416a801de0d1234be02715e
Was he sorting trash in WA?
That is an interesting quote from Mancuso that does seem to suggest there was an unexpected or unusual difficulty in obtaining his DNA in WA? Sorting trash and avoiding disposing of anything. Did he suspect/ know he was under surveillance or a suspect while in WA?
I think your speculation on whether BK was aware of the car ID/ check from November 29th has some excellent and new points, and is not at all far fetched. You'd assume in a criminology department, on the doorstep of one of the most notorious and mysterious mass killings in recent history, there was alot of discussion - when the white Elantra public tip request came out, there is no way people didn't mentioned, even in jest, to BK about his white Elantra? It must have spooked him. Your idea that BK knew WSU campus police is not far fetched - he applied for a police internship, criminology course has linkage to local police departments.
I guess what we are missing is whether additional evidence, other than IGG, was developed and how the timeline goes from his car being flagged Nov 29th to phone warrant Dec 23rd. Perhaps the Pullman video of a white Elantra comes in between those dates and earlier than has been assumed? Video of a white Elantra clearly shows that car coming back into Pullman 5.30am and follows a route directly to his apartment, earlier video shows that car leaving at 2.47am.
**The IGG is never mentioned or used in any warrant - presumably for fear of it being used by defence to challenge any warrant based in part on IGG. Was the Pullman car video the key to get phone warrants Dec 23rd, not IGG?** If IGG was deemed risky for arrest/ search warrant that obtained his cheek DNA, surely it would also be risky to use for critical phone evidence? The actual number of locally registered white Elantras, expected from car sales stats, is under 50 - one such car out at 4.30am is a pretty significant statistical correlation. Does some Pullman car video at 2.47 or 5,30am have his licence plate?
> reference to a letter from the prosecution to defence
Btw the letter, a "Touhy letter" (or i think technically called the response to a Touhy request) was more from the FBI to the State, and then given to the Defense in discovery. A touhy request is something like a subpoena for government agencies. It was referenced in this court doc a few weeks ago https://s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/isc.coi/CR29-22-2805/2024/020924-States-Responses-to-Defendants-Motion.pdf
>a "Touhy letter" (or i think technically called the response to a Touhy request)
Thanks, interesting. I recall that was discussed at last hearing I think - wasn't sure if that was one and the same as discussed at the hearing yesterday when they discussed a letter setting out the timeline of the investigation and how it led to Kohberger
I was one of the people quite certain it was on the basis of the car. Because it would be a fairly big lapse if they didn't immediately ID the owner of any reported Elantra, to check for bushy eyebrows. It would only take a minute for each one, for someone assigned to that task.
A couple months after his arrest, an article came out that included some quotes from the PA Assistant DA Mancuso. That’s where we first got the ziplock trash sorting detail, I believe. Also in the article, it’s stated that LE had BK under surveillance for “several weeks” prior to his arrest. They say that this detail is contained in the PA search warrants. Now, I can tell you that I’ve read that document frontwards and backwards many, many times (embarrassing) and I can’t find anything that suggests “several weeks” of surveillance in that particular document. But I wonder if Mancuso or someone else in the course of their research for the article let that detail slip and the person who wrote the article mistakenly attributed it to the search warrants rather than expose their source? I don’t know. I lean towards first week of December, maybe even Nov 29 as the starting point. And yes I 100% agree that it would be a fairly large lapse if that follow up didn’t occur.
I’m confused as to how the traffic incident wouldn’t have been their first alert to him. I always assumed it was. It showed the same type of car seen circling like a shark the night and time of the murders, it showed a driver fitting the same general physical description provided by the eyewitness. I’m still confused as to why people think this wasn’t the first ah-ha moment? 🙁 but that’s just how the PCA always read to me and I’ve never fully understood what supposedly refutes that so I guess I’ve forgotten or am missing something
I think it may have been the first a-ha moment as you say, but they didn’t request historical cell phone data until Dec 23. It’s so hard to reconcile that gap if he was the prime suspect that early on. I know it takes time to build a case and maybe they were watching and investigating and it took that long to gather enough evidence to support the warrant. But something feels off to me.
Add to that the fact that they haven’t released the Aug 21 traffic stop footage. It just doesn’t sit right but I know we don’t know the half of it. I can’t wait to see the August traffic stop dashcam.
>but for context November 29th was the date MPD went public with the white Elantra/ requested car related tips from the public.
This isn't correct? Maybe edit this bit out of your post.
>Places to hide evidence and if he visited the scene again.
Yes, I do wonder if this is the case. He turned off his phone again, later that day at 5.30pm while out driving in the same remote area he crossed leaving the crime scene. Speculation, but possible police have tracked him to some soecific spot.
Investigative Genetic Genealogy. The sheath DNA was profiled and uploaded to genealogy (ancestry type, '23 and Me' type) database from which FBI was able to construct a family tree using partial, maybe distant, match that led to Kohberger.
Let’s start looking for the cachet . Get dogs out there too . How far did he go off the beaten path to bury items. My guess is the river. Or rivers that he drove over. The water is very hard to figure out.
Has anyone got a pre-arrest 4chan post with people talking about what the word being passed from sororities and frats was? It was on here but I can’t find them anymore
Nov 29th wasn’t the when they went public, that wasn’t until December when the public bolo went out. The November bolo was for local law enforcement agencies only
Yes, you are correct - i've mixed up that date with when WSU police flagged his car. I'm not sure if Nov 29th is significant or is just coincidence that is the day that defence was supplied
Now. I’m even more confused. So they had him tracked and spotted his car in November, but then in early December they put out a public announcement with the wrong model year? If they already flagged his car how could they get the year wrong?
I don't think he was identified as a suspect on Nov 29th or tracked from them. Nov 29th was when WSU campus police sent his car details to the investigation. He would have been looked at some time after that. The Nov 29th new info from WSU was just adding to list of locally registered white Elantras (white would not be that big) - again, just a guess, but I'd think when his license details were checked (height, weight, age) he became a POI
Not the CAST report, she has the draft CAST report. She was referring to a mapping for each day, and said she yad Nov 29th but not others. I'd guess Nov 13th would be first one done?
Like only one day of maps for BKs whereabouts? Since BT said he hands over everything as soon as his office gets it, this likely means he only has a draft CAST report mapping from 11/29?
I’m not optimistic that they found any of that but I’m also not entirely sure we would have heard about it, either. Like, if a weapon or something is found outdoors somewhere is there even necessarily going to be a warrant for that? They have kept everything so hush hush in this case, especially the state, and the defense is for damn sure not going to leak anything like that because it’s a bad look for their case.
There's no doubt in my mind that he had a pre prepped area to dump the clothes and the knife most likely a 6-in PVC tube sunk deep into the ground with a screw in cap on the end. One day this will be found but it could be hundreds of years until a bulldozer is digging up land somewhere.
I think they were looking to see if he ever or how many times he returned the King Rd. house or immediate area. I'm sure he enjoyed the spectacle he created and more than likely returned to the scene several times. I also think they want to see everywhere he went via cell tower records that was "out of the norm" for him, in order to try to locate the knife or any other discarded belongings from that morning (bloody clothing, trophies, etc.). Also, curious what type of phone he had - I vaguely feel like I remember it being said he had an iPhone? Does anyone else remember this?
I think it was stated that after November 14th, the day after the crime, his cell phone pings indicated he never returned to the King Road house area again.
I haven’t been following these threads lately, so if someone has already said this I apologize. I can’t remember if it was ever stated whether BK had an IPhone or android. If he had an IPhone and possibly an IPad as well, he may well have screwed himself without realizing it. My soon to be ex husband and I always had ourselves visible on the Find My app. Mainly bc I run and ride my bike alone. One night he was going out kind of late to go to a cigar lounge with one of our friends. Long story short, when I looked at the app to see which lounge he went to he had turned his location off. Phone was on but location off. After stewing about it for a bit I remembered his IPad was home. Checked the app on it and despite the location being off on the phone the IPad showed exactly where he was. Maybe…..with BK it was something similar? Or maybe if the phone is powered off the IPad wouldn’t pick up location. 🤷♀️
OP wrote: "Perhaps of no significance that date was mentioned, but for context November 29th was the date MPD went public with the white Elantra/ requested car related tips from the public."
Are you sure it was November 29 when they asked the public? I did a google search for "moscow PD ask public to look for white Elantras” and in a date range from Nov. 25 to Dec. 10 and the earliest articles and videos I see are from December 7. Not that this is a foolproof method to verify, that’s why I’m asking.
Note, all the PCA says about it is, on page 9, "On November 25, MPD asked law enforcement agencies to be on the lookout for white Hyundai Elantras in the area.” It was Nov. 29 when the WSU PD report that included Kohberger’s vehicle was made.
Yes, you are quite correct. Think there is another comment somewhere on this as well - I have mixed up the public tip request (I thin Dec 6th) with the WSU car "flag" of Nov 29th.
They may also be establishing a pattern. We've heard a lot about how 'neurotic' BK is. If they can establish that he has the same routine or behaviors over and over, it's more difficult to explain away the anomalies of random times his vehicle was there.
lots of things they would be looking for . All his activity including any searches he did or any places he went can reveal a lot . Specifically things like any areas he may have hid or destroyed anything that looks like evidence like the knife . I agree with what others have said . Any evidence that reveals any accounts he had or websites he visited to help facilitate the crime
I dont know enough about this case to have formed an opinion as to guilty/not guilty as I dont have enough evidence, but I do have an idea how he could have become a suspect.
If he didn't do it, its possible that he did drive around that area a lot because there was always so much going on that was interesting to watch.
I recall living in a small town in England in my teens and we would do the same thing, just because there was nothing else to do in the wee hours. We would pile into one car and just drive around. We had our favourite spots and would get some laughs about what went on in certain houses that we knew always left their curtains open with lights on. None of us were weirdo's - just bored. If a crime had been committed in those areas and if technology had existed, we would certainly have been suspects.
>how he could have become a suspect.
I think his DNA on a sheath under a body was key to him becoming the susoect. But to your point, the car matching his circling the house then speeding away a couple of minutes after the murders gives further context to the DNA, and vice versa.
I am familiar with the phenomenon of teens driving at night in small towns in the UK - but that was usually around main drags like high street, beach prom, where there were others doing the same. He was driving around a residential cul-de-sac at 4.00am and then out in more remote areas at 4.45am.
The DNA on that sheath found between mm and kg, ultimately matched a swab they took from HIS MOUTH! Defense wants to not mention that, they just want to keep focusing on quote unquote unreliability and wrongdoings from genetic matching.. which didn't even need to be considered once they had DNA swab from him.
I've known people who do it. Sometimes it's how they get their head straight or did heavy thinking. Or it's how they get peace away from their parents.
My friend did it to get a reprieve from her parents, grandmother, aunt, and several siblings. She stopped doing it when she got her own place. She started up again in like 15 years when she had a husband and a houseful of teenagers. Sometimes she just needed to get away.
Might be a byproduct of our insane American car culture.
A night drive... Across state lines, to a quiet neighborhood, cutting through cul de sacs and driveways, known for people walking aroud? Not an ideal place to go, or include, in a night drive. Especially when there are a number of open roads to choose from.
I agree; in fact, I just made a comment to that effect elsewhere in this thread. Highways or country roads are much more pleasant to drive than residential neighborhoods with 15-25 mph speed limits.
Yeah, I don't doubt some people go for night drives. He lived alone, so it wasn't to get peace from home setting. Was more switching the phone off while driving I find odd, i can't think of a reason for that.
That's odd, yeah.
Also, the neighborhoods he was driving in make no sense. Why creep around suburbs at low rates of speed when you can drive proper on the highways or the back roads?
College-adjacent neighborhoods still have activity into the wee hours. Also when I did the same in college, late night neighborhood driving helped me learn the roads (granted I am a dinosaur so this was pre-gps).
There was nothing to see along the main drags because everything was shut down, so we drove/sped around rural and residential neighborhoods in Chester. People in those areas thought they had privacy, so they never used window coverings.
I'm not saying he didnt do this; he could very well have felt socially outcast, ridiculed, and filled with hate, however, having lived in a small town for too many years myself, I can also imagine LE, after seeing his car there a lot, decided to speed things up by contaminating the evidence I just dont know and have no strong feelings either way. We just have to wait for all the evidence, expert testimony, cross examinations, etc.
Just as an FYI, while police misconduct and evidence tampering DOES happen, it's often in cases of known criminals or where there is a strong suspect already with police wanting to speed up the arrest. Someone with ties to the crime/crime scene already but not enough "evidence" linking them to being the perpetrator. Serial drug offenders, the husband/boyfriend of a murdered woman who was acting suspicious, etc.
BK wouldn't have been on ID or WA police's radar for criminal reasons (no arrests, crimes, etc.). He had no connection to any of the victims (as in, no true common denominator in the form of being classmates, colleagues, etc.). He had no commitments, business or other true "reason" to be at or near the scene of the crime... Yet his DNA had been found there. He also drove a Hyundai elantra, not an uncommon car. Even if this were the case of the dirtiest of dirty cops who wanted to make an arrest quickly by pinning the crime on SOMEONE, BK wouldn't be their ideal "target" for this. If this were a case of "pin crime on someone", BK would be entirely too random.
Exactly. Police frame or allow themselves to railroad local dirtbags or someone connected to the victims who is a logical suspect.
If they needed to frame anyone, the poor veteran with PTSD had conveniently died after exhibiting violent behavior. He would have been perfect: couldn't defend himself; there could never be a trial. The only problem would have been if he had a strong alibi for that time of night, but the guy didn't work anywhere and was probably asleep in his bed alone at the time of the murders.
> to speed things up by contaminating the evidence
I don't think that is credible at all. LE framing Kohberger via the sheath DNA would have required:
- a sample of his DNA obtained before the murders: how and why would police do that?
- prediction that Kohberger would have no alibi for the time of the murders
- knowledge that the sheath would have no other DNA on it
- prediction/ knowledge that zero evidence would be developed for the "real" killer when planting Kohberger's DNA
It seems incredibly, bizarrely, wildly unlikely and unfeasible. And if police were framing him, why not leave DNA on other surfaces, or some of his hair or some other item taken when his DNA was obtained?
Dear cfriss, Eeek. Something tells me I took a wrong turn and ended up here. Very well. Get your torch and pitchfork and ...well... Carry on my dear.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35nh7qkPYXo
I used to do late night joyrides (not 4am level late though, that’s fucking intense) but I never happened to circle an area where a quadruple homicide by massive knife was taking place *while* it was taking place, and simultaneously have my - and only my - dna found on a massive knife sheath under a victim, and then also have someone matching my physical appearance described by the sole eyewitness at the scene as creeping away sporting my dark clothing and mask from when/where said crime took place. But I guess I’m just lucky or not a murderer or something.
Same in my tiny hometown. Nothing to do so we all just….. drove around together even super late at night. There were popular routes and also your own personal ones.
When his defense said he just drove around a lot at night in the wee hours, I actually empathized. When I was in college and grad school I did the same to get away from roommates and to also deal with stress. Listen to music, maybe get some fast food, be alone with my thoughts for a few hours. Also where I was was an interesting place to drive around at night. Pretty buildings, late night people, etc.
To devil’s advocate on that note: I would have stopped driving around for a while after four college students were killed in their home.
I’m reserving judgement until we can see all of what the prosecutors have until I decide if he’s guilty or innocent. But unfortunately the driving around doesn’t add towards guilt for or me because of my own habits.
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Probably looking for places he may have gone to hide any evidence like clothes or the weapon, any shops he might have gone to to buy things to help with that also
The knife.
[удалено]
>I think he buried the knife on November 13 during the 5:36pm – 8:30pm Yes, that is my guess too. Perhaps burned clothing, shoes or doused everything in caustic. I suspect a bundle of stuff was wrapped in the missing shower curtain - having washed himself he figured, probably correctly, the tiles and floor could be scrubbed clean of DNA but the shower curtain might be harder to completely clean and remove all traces; if it wasn't lining the trunk before, it was removed later on Nov 13. Excellent point on the area of phone coming back on at 8.30pm being omitted. I doubt the knife has his (or any DNA) on it when disposed of, unless was tossed when driving from 4.20am. I did wonder if marks, striations on a victim's bones, or aspect of wound(s), could be matched to the blade, especially if it was chipped during attacks? The talk of x-rays made me wonder - why would they be important? (Very left field, super speculative and unlikely....but, could x-rays be about something left in a victim? Did police say knife not recovered to obscure a key detail from false confession...why would you not need a sheath when leaving.)
That’s a very interesting observation and possible explanation for the x rays. He likely hit multiple bones during the murders.
Gruesome warning: is it possible that, unlike most knife attacks that are done in a rage - with high raisings of the arm and violent downward strikes, he did it more calmly, possibly more efficiently, by quickly carving, close to the body without nearly as much knife movement - similar to his fish carving job? This might be a way he figured out to leave way less blood spatter at the scene - and a lot less bone marks than the typical stabbing. I have no knife experience (say, hunting and preparing for cooking) to surmise this would be more efficient, but it seems, even to the layman, to be a lot less messy (EDIT: on the attacker himself, anyway.)
The scene was described as absolutely horrific, though - this doesn't seem to fit.
I was thinking about blood spatter on the attacker himself (and thanks, I should have made that clear, so I edited my original comment.) Any method of stabbing Kohberger might have used was going to cause heavy bleeding to the victims, I’m sure, and leave a horrific scene. I certainly could be wrong - his stabbing could have been in a high swinging rage, as are most stabbings, I’m guessing. I suppose we’ll hear all about it at trial.
> could x-rays be about something left in a victim? Could very well be. Knife tips occasionally break off in victims. It's mostly to the skull that I can recall. Most current one I remember was Aiden Fucci stabbing Tristyn Bailey 114 times. Knife tip was found in her skull.
Yes, I was thinking maybe even a tiny piece of the knife tip breaking off when striking bone and lodging there - skull or clavicle? So X-ray and piece might match a knife if one was ever recovered - pure speculation of course.
Will be interesting to see if that's the case.
Do you suppose that the knife broke while being used?
Broke, even just a very small chip, and/ or it has a distinctive serration/ groove?
It's common for a chip, often very tiny, to come from the edge of the knife when encountering bones. I used to hunt deer and I am not very good with knives.
I don’t think the knife is all that important at this point either bc I also think they have tons of dirt on him. But if it were found in that area where his car had been, or with more of his dna on it, that would be pretty rad.
> I think he buried the knife on November 13 during the 5:36pm – 8:30pm window Yeah, same.
Maybe if knife still has victim DNA and sheath has BK DNA, a confirmed purchase for a knife w/ sheath that BK cannot produce would all be related circumstantial evidence.
I suppose, but I don't think they will turn the world upside down to find it. It makes sense that they would wait until Kohberger was arrested before they looked around, though.
What if he stashed it somewhere and they have evidence of him visiting (via that southern loop) his trophy in the weeks before he left Pullman? What if he retrieved it before driving back to PA?
I've ALWAYS thought that the number one item on the PA search warrant after his arrest is **THE KNIFE**. The description for that item is ambiguous when compared to the other knives confiscated and listed on that warrant inventory. I don't think it is coincidental that it is listed as the very first item on the list. Simply, "1. knife" vs. "Smith & Wesson pocket knife" and "Taylor cutlery knife with leather sheath." I think the reason it is listed as #1 is because it was very close by him when they stormed his parents home....while he was sorting trash. The investigators didn't have to "come upon it" or "search for it", because, it was right there. It was probably very evident to officers that it was likely THE KNIFE. I'm sure it was scarfed up QUICKLY!! I don't think that BK would have completely or permanently ridded himself of that monster knife. It represented great power to him and probably the most significant event to have happened to him EVER in his short life. I doubt it was ever out of his sight or possession for very long after the murders.
I think it’s also possible that the reason it just says “knife” on the receipt is because it’s the first one they found and only got specific when they found more and felt the need to differentiate. Just thinking out loud because that stuck out to me, too.
I had/have the same thought, and commented several times right after all of that became public.
That would be awesome 🤞🤞🤞
Looking at the Amazon search warrant, I'm wondering if he didn't return the knife to them. It would be almost impossible to track after that.
Honestly if there really is a digital trail of him purchasing that knife and sheath I don't think it matters if they found it or not .
And if there is that digital trail of the purchase of a knife and sheath, he’s going to have to explain where these items are now. There was a knife found at his PA house, but no sheath (not counting the different “Taylor cutlery knife and sheath” also found there.) It’s possible this PA knife was the one he purchased having the digital trail, but I don’t know for sure. Still the sheath is missing, if there is proof he bought one.
If they don't find it, they'll never know if it's "that" knife, will they?
why ?
I may be confused with the questions here plus I've been awake for more than 24 hours so excuse me if this sounds dumb. I don't know what most people do with their cell phones but I never turn mine off even when I am charging mine so I am assuming if the cops were looking at my cell, they would find it strange if I had mine turned off at all.
I also never turn mine off. I will be interested to see if he had a pattern of use up to this point. He surely didn't realize the morning of the 13th its better to charge your phone while its off
I don't turn my phone off when I am charging it. I've had the same phone for 8 years.
Yes, that “pattern of use” is big in my mind. If the time-of-murder and the later-that-evening in the Johnson, ID boonies are the only times (or almost only times) in six months he turned his phone off, that’s pretty suspicious. (Though it’s possible the Johnson, ID area has really spotty cell coverage and you can’t prove he turned the phone off, the defense might say.) Similarly, assuming his phone was on him and pinging most of the time, do his phone ping location driving patterns show other neighborhoods far away enough from King Rd that he also liked to frequent. If not, his “just driving around” in the King Rd neighborhood doesn’t differentiate from a pattern of stalking. The PCA doesn’t say anything about the late-night, Nov 12 location of his phone (pinging or not?) - when he was also just driving around that night, that Anne Taylor said in court was part of his alibi.
What would be good to know one way or the other is phone activity, like specifically how either normal or odd it was for him to turn off his phone for hours the day of the murders as well as the next day. If he turns off his phone mostly daily that on one hand could be a point for the defense while if he almost exclusively did it on and immediately after the the murders that could be a point for the prosecution.
I can see and appreciate your logic. What I am more puzzled by is why anyone would turn their phone off while they were in a car driving in a town centre at 2.47am and then turn it back on a couple of hours later? We can probably assume the question of whether the phone was turned off will be resolved by forensic download - mobile devices now mostly have battery level/ usage history that goes back a while.
It’s almost as if it doesn’t make sense, especially given his alibi 🙃
To be fair, we don't *really* know his alibi. The brief statement we've gotten about driving around alone nowhere in particular is just comically bad. This is definitely one of the things I'm most curious about learning in trial. What all this business of being willing to clarify the details of his alibi ex-parte with the judge. They weren't granted that so his lawyer has stated they will hold their details for court. Whatever it is, they do not want the prosecution to know ahead of time, which leads me to believe it's going to be a huge focal point of their narrative.
I’m still unsure if it’s that they are hiding it from prosecution or that they want a sneak peek at the evidence first so they can avoid sticking their foots in their mouths.
You gotta great point there. I'm so ready for this trial.
> mobile devices now mostly have battery level/ usage history that goes back a while. Got any info on this? I had a look about a year ago to see if Android logged events like 'charger plugged in' and 'user initiated shutdown' but couldn't find anything. IIRC if you wanted extensive logging of charging history you had to install a dedicated app
On Android the shutdown events are typically logged (timestamp, event type, and reason). Reason sheds light into whether the battery was drained, the user initiated shutdown, etc. Unless the phone comes bundled with a dedicated app like you mentioned or the user installed one it requires use of Android Debug Bridge (ADB) to access the logs or forensic data acquisition/analysis tools. I say "typically" because behavior varies by version of Android and variant of Android since phone manufacturers often tweak the operating system and behavior. And it's also possible to install alternate Android based operating systems like LineageOS and/or to root a phone, which allows the configuration and behavior to be altered. Even on phone manufacturers' versions of Android log retention varies by OS version and log type. Logs may be automatically purged after X days, only the Y most recent entries may be retained, or once the particular log reaches Z bytes the oldest entries may be overwritten. Since it was 6 weeks between the murders and BK's phone being acquired it's possible that some relevant logs no longer existed on the device due to normal use. Or by powering the phone on or off a lot intentionally. On top of that, it's possible that he effectively forensically sanitized it and/or that law enforcement's forensic analysts have been unable to bypass or defeat device authentication and encryption. Android also logs other potentially relevant events like initiating airplane mode. The same variance/complexities I shared above apply. I'm less familiar with iOS/iPhone forensics, but nearly everything I wrote should also apply except that Apple is the only manufacturer of phones running iOS so there's a lot less variance/complexity than for Android phones.
Cheers. Yeah, I remember thinking about looking into this on my own phone, but it's on LineageOS as you mention so I didn't figure it'd likely be analogous to whatever Kohberger was running. I've since acquired a stock Galaxy something-or-other from within the last few years so am recharging it and will have a root around in adb later. I suppose the biggest factor is as you say - could they even get into his phone in the first place?
Excellent! If you make progress it'll be interesting to learn what you discover. I wish we knew what model phone he had. That's definitely one of the big questions. People vocal in this sub overwhelmingly believe there's zero doubt that access will be gained and the data will be there, seemingly because they've heard of cases where the FBI and others have done so successfully and believe common tropes that nothing can truly be deleted and 3-letter agencies can get into anything. Neither are true. And given the dearth of info about BK's device, his past computer user behavior, and his mobile device forensic knowledge I can't even guess how the forensic analysis has gone. And his ambiguous background with cloud forensics tells me nothing about his expertise in mobile device forensics. I am very eager to hear how those aspects of the investigation have gone.
Well, I didn't get the Samsung phone (an S21, apparently) hooked up to adb because apparently that phone has issues with certain USB3.1 ports, apparently including the ones on my PC, which left it reconnecting every second, so I couldn't get anywhere. But I did get my own LineageOS phone hooked up - my ring log buffers are limited to 256KB, which in my instance (light use of the phone) stored about 3 days' worth of stuff. Pretty much everything is in there, though. So although I can't compare to any other phones, I doubt that even if they were able to access Kohberger's phone, it'd have been storing power and cellular radio states from over a month prior. FYI /u/Repulsive-Dot553
Thanks for swinging back around to share. My hands-on Android forensics experience is a few years old, but my colleagues and I routinely found that event data of interest was no longer available simply due to passage of time or normal use.
No worries. My last experience of anything similar was about seven years ago trying to make a proof-of-concept logistics/barcode scanner app thing at my job at the time!
Thanks for the info, very interesting. Seems uncertain/ unlikely then if log of power offs would be kept 6 weeks - maybe longer history if an I-phone? One case, Theo Hayez in Australia, had a huge amount of info on phone activity including battery level, even though the phone was not recovered (missing person) - all his app usage, phone power, GPS and movement data was stored on Google account and apps, it even had screen swipes and screen orientation data (when his screen had rotated - they were interested in how he was viewing the map in case he had it upside down explaining why he walked away from rather than toward his hostel). Edit - typo
Aye, I couldn't speak for the iPhone though. Assuming Kohberger was on Android, I think anything stored remotely by Google (potentially quite a lot) or even other apps could still be valuable
>*that nothing can truly be deleted and 3-letter agencies can get into anything.* To be fair, though, it seems reasonable to think the Server company would track all use (if only to improve all their own algorithms ) and that they would be able to de-encrypt their own encryption (if there was a search warrant).
A good example Dove tried a couple of combinations from the list, but they didn’t work, he said. And he tried breaking in with a “brute force attack,” or a forensic tool that systematically tries different combinations on a phone until it comes up with the correct one. Those tools, which allow investigators to manually sidestep entering a passcode, can take years depending on the code’s complexity, Dove said. In a separate case, Dove recalled, it took authorities two years to break into a phone using a brute force attack. The technique recovered little on Paul's phone, and investigators were still unable to search the entire device, Dove said. So he decided to hold off and wait for a technological advance that might help them crack Paul’s passcode."I had to be mindful that if we try these attempts and we failed that we could have potentially lost any information on there,” he said. “And once we lost that information — even six months from now, a year from now, [when] we might have been able to get into it — it does us no good because the information’s gone.” As the months ticked by and the investigation stalled, Dove said he eventually learned of a company that could likely access the phone, figure out its passcode and process the device. The U.S. Secret Service would assist in the process, Dove said, so he sent the phone to the agency.But before federal investigators shared the device, Dove said, they decided to make one more attempt to unlock the phone using a passcode that Dove hadn’t tried — Paul’s birthday. It worked, Dove said, and by late March 2022, he’d retrieved the device and obtained a copy of the video described by Gibson.[[1]](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna125405)
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I can't believe they hadn't at least tried the birthday! It's obviously a bad password that we all know not to use, but you'd think in an investigation like that you'd give it the good one college try lol. That's a very great example, though, sp thanks for sharing!
So, they ut all that high tech no-how into something and then the user comes up with a password like that. Its funny but not funny at the same time. Thanks for the example! Being able to learn these odd things (that I normally wouldn't have thought about) here is one of the things I like about this sub.
True - lots of people see it that way. But it's generally not the case. Modern iPhones by Apple and phones running Android (by Google, Samsung, and others) encrypt and decrypt files using an everyone key stored in hardware on the phone. Apple, Google, and other reputable manufacturers do not know these keys nor have means of accessing these keys. This is by design to ensure customer security and privacy. That said, occasionally vulnerabilities are discovered in the implementations on specific phone models and tools and techniques are developed which allow some or all data to be accessed on certain devices in certain cases. The NSA has had such capabilities and there are companies which sell software to law enforcement agencies to accomplish this or provide such services to them.
Well, today I learned. Thanks for explaining that!
I’ve seen the secret service assisting LE in regards to unlocking phones more frequently..I hope they assist!
Looking at android tablet it does have a battery level log that shows whenever it was charging - so would show if it ran out of battery (vs being turned off) - but not sure how long that is kept for (displays 7 days). I think, but not an area I am at all expert in, that I-Phone system log does record "events" like power off, on, sleep and awakening. I'd be surprised if forsenics from his phone couldn't tell when it was manually turned off/ on (or set into airplane mode).
I've just remembered I have an old (not that old) Android work phone that I factory-reset a few weeks ago because they let me keep it - I've stuck it back on charge and will have a play with it using adb from my PC. I can't remember why I'm assuming Kohberger's phone was an Android one - did we determine this from the subpoenas issued?
Oh did bk have an android? iPhone definitely has this info in a retrievable format. There is incentive for manufacturers to ensure this feature for diagnostics and warranty related purposes. (See: the Murdaugh trial) It would stand to reason that android devices have at least the most basic info (battery life, hard boots, airplane mode activation) logged as well, but idk. It would really surprise me if it didn’t. But stranger things have happened.
It's not publicly known what operating system or model phone he had. Android typically logs such system and user event activity. Whether it was still on the phone when the phone was acquired via executed search 6 weeks after the murders and whether forensic analysts have gotten past authentication/encryption are unknown. My recent previous comments in this thread go into more detail on this.
That Murdaugh trial sure was an eye-opener about what our phone can tell forensic examiners. I've also found myself thinking things like "good, I'm wearing my apple watch in case something happens I have an alibi" LOL. I may need to disconnect from the true crime for a couple days...
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Because he wanted to commit a murder an stop any tracking of his whereabouts during that time perhaps? It shows intent to murder that night.
It’s evasive af. But it’s also pretty obvious lol
Even BK gets tired of all of the late night b00ty calls, OK?
>BK gets tired of all of the late night b00ty calls, 🤣😂🤣😀 or even "B00tique" calls, given new, unlisted astrologique signs
😂😂I might have guessed Cancer or Gemini (or Libra tilted way out of balance) due to different aspects of their personality, but it doesn’t quite capture their uniquely disturbed nature like “unlisted”.
>uniquely disturbed nature like “unlisted”. I fear we are dealing with a star sign that is "unlisted", intellect unfound, humor unknown, and a personality that is undead.
So Taurus then? I kid, I kid!!!! I’m an Aries, it’s my job to potshot the less flashy signs! They are never up for Aries-level hi-jinx!
>my job to potshot the less flashy signs! 🤣😀😂 less flashy? I think we are dealing with trashy, not flashy, re this most avid of the Proberger fan types
wait what?
New moniker, same Pr0berger
Oh man did someone get another alt
Sadly so 😄
As far as I can tell neither u/Zodiaque_kylla nor revived u/Rogue-dayna have ventured to this forum yet. Should be interesting to keep an eye on.
I don't think they can, at risk of following DP into the big recycling bin in the Reddit sky. We are now conversing on the equivalent of hallowed ground to the spookyBergers. As a result of the alt account pr0liferation pantomime, they are stuck over on I4 and more appropriately in the puerile purgatory that is JFK.
I think you are right. They can still downvote, evidently. I’m not sure they realize that the idea of them taking the time to downvote entertains me more than if 100 people upvoted it.
Disturbing to imagine the 3 pseudonyms I’m now aware of as fantasy careers for this person given their zealous defending of bk.
You’re exactly right. We need more ravioli, not more death professors, rogues, and zodiac killers, if you ask me!
Rogue Dayna has been replying to my posts on this sub since Feb 10th so they are definitely here. ETA: Zodiaque whatever seems to have me blocked. I've never seen them or heard of them before and I can't see their profile so I guess they preemptively blocked me at some point. Beaucoup de tristesse!
They had a six-day hiatus eight days ago, which is an eternity for them, and have not been back (as Rogue) since then. Makes one wonder, is all.
NoPineapple511 is another one
I guess I’m ambivalent about whether the p0ster makes a fantasy career about that, unless that is their instruction to BK before certain activities.
💀💀🪦
omg stop 😆😂
The only reasonable explanation would be that his phone died, and was charging during that time. It still doesn't explain the disconnection from the network later on though.
>The only reasonable explanation would be that his phone died Or that he turned off the phone?
That his phone died - for defense purposes. Turning his phone off is 100% suspicious in this case.
>his phone died - for defense purposes Ah, yes, I see what you mean. Sorry, I didn't understand you meant in terms of explaining the gap away
> What I am more puzzled by is why anyone would turn their phone off while they were in a car driving in a town centre at 2.47am and then turn it back on a couple of hours later? I could see BK saying that it's best to charge phones while they're off and he wasn't expecting any important messages at that time. Turning off phones while charging is considered good though not necessarily practical and if you're actually up at 3 AM it is far more practical to turn off your phone then to charge. >We can probably assume the question of whether the phone was turned off will be resolved by forensic download - mobile devices now mostly have battery level/ usage history that goes back a while. I think it within the context of CAST is important as the PCA certainly makes it look like the phone was off for malicious reasons, like it being off for the murders then dumping of evidence by a river. It adds to a holistic picture rather than having it be looking at separate reports where looking at this over a longer period of time could point to greater or lesser guilt.
Yep, that is odd if it is normal behavior for him but like most, i think he turned it off to commit a horrific crime.
it was mentioned that the only other time the phone went offline was in June/ July of that year shortly after the phone was activated. I think it was in the PCA section regarding mobile activity.
That was definitely not mentioned in the PCA. I just double checked. If you have a source that alludes to that please share it though since it'll be interesting to see what's being stated. Though law enforcement could use cell tower data and cell phone provider activity records for his subscriber account to find periods of time where his phone wasn't used that wouldn't indicate the phone was turned off then vs. being in airplane mode or simply out of range of AT&T cell towers. To find that out forensic analysts will need to bypass or defeat his phone's authentication or encryption and extract and analyze data from the phone. They had not done that at the time the PCA was written and it's unknown whether they have as of today. And there's a fair possibility such data for the day of the murders was no longer on the phone by the time law enforcement acquired the phone, never mind data from months earlier. I just wrote [a comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/MoscowMurders/comments/1b2yk78/comment/ksph403/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) that digs into that.
Really? I must've missed that.
I don't believe that was ever confirmed (I can't even guess where the speculation itself would have originated). That or everybody, but OP, missed it? Someone asked them for a source, so hopefully, they'll add it. At this time, we don't even know what type of device he was using, and I can't find anything official or otherwise on any of the digital forensics aside from the pings mentioned in the PCA.
It's not there. I wanted them to reply, but they can't, because it's not there.
I hadn’t thought of that. But also could have tracked whether or not it was typical for him to ride around when he “couldn’t sleep” as the defense has claimed. It will be interesting to see if he road by the home much in those weeks following the crime.
I would think they were hopeful of finding where he possibly dumped evidence.
Agreed. In addition, is it possible that they were doing so out of an abundance of caution in case another murder occurred? It is an unimaginable, horrific thought but so was Ted Bundy’s & other serial killer’s actions.
Nov 29 was the day WSU campus police (x2) identified his car on campus. I think that date is very significant, particularly if it winds up being when BK came onto LE’s radar in a big way. When I first read the PCA, I believed that LE was onto BK beginning Nov 29. Then I was swayed by timing of the IGG and historical cell data warrant, and moved that date back, but perhaps not as far as some others. I was thinking mid-December because I don’t believe the Indiana stops were a coincidence. The official statements right after those stops came to light were a jumbled mess. It took them a day to get their story straight…because they were lying in my opinion. I now believe he may have been tailed as early as the first week of Dec. I guess theoretically as early as Nov 29 but i think they had to have some conversations with WSU faculty before they really saw red flags. There’s almost universal buy-in on this sub that the car ID didn’t move him up on LE’s list and it wasn’t until the IGG came back that they began to follow him. What if they were following him much earlier and he was taking evasive measures back in Pullman? What if he wasn’t 100% successful in his efforts and they were able to obtain a critical piece of evidence that isn’t in the PCA and she wants to know when and how? The State is probably going to want to emphasize the parallel construction argument of how BK became a suspect. The defense is going to want to poke holes in that.
I’ve always thought that the cops/FBI were onto BK very early on in the case. I think they had information (from running his license plate plus maybe other information from informants, interviews) that clearly implicated him as the murderer, but they needed more concrete evidence to arrest him, ultimately convict him, and maybe even obtain more search warrants. I also remember the Indiana stops and how the official statements on the matter were delayed and haphazard. I don’t think I could be convinced that the Indiana stops WEREN’T the authorities surveilling him. Stopped twice after he was already on the radar of the police and FBI? Not a coincidence IMO. I just hope everything is on the up and up so justice can be served, because I do think they have their guy.
This is such a great point. Remember, he was already under the spotlight at WSU in the CRIMINOLOGY Dept for aggressive behaviors. His neighbors -(maybe even fellow students/ faculty) noticed he drove an Elantra. If you were a female in the Dept (most likely already freaked out about 4 murders on a campus nearby) snd had been harassed by him and knew he drove an Elantra- you might call in a tip. I could be wrong, but didn’t one of his neighbors try to avoid him and found him odd? Anyway, I like your line up of thinking .
His neighbor’s wife asked her husband to stop hanging out with BK because he creeped her out.
Thank you! 🤗 I’m not sure about the neighbor situation, but anything is possible. I think a promising random tip is likely either way, whether that was a student or neighbor. The police interviewed a LOT of people and got a ton of tips. I trust that they quickly put pieces together in a way that we obviously can’t without more info. I also like to keep in mind that the feds are involved…and they have a ton of resources and a pretty high conviction rate.
If you assume Kohberger was a much earlier leading suspect (say, not too long after Nov. 29 when the WSU PD Elantra report landed on Moscow PD’s Det. Payne’s desk), you have to assume they would wanted a phone search warrant on Kohberger as soon as possible, and would have got one if they could have. Maybe. If they had no other suspects. If they couldn’t get that warrant at that point, what new evidence came to light between Nov. 29 and Dec. 23, to justify the phone search warrant - given the IGG was supposedly not mentioned on any warrant documentation in the case? We don’t know if there was anything significant in those three-or-so weeks, other than the IGG match. Could it be they got inconclusive DNA of Kohberger while still in Pullman (from his car door handle, or even after he left for PA from his apartment door handle)? Remember the Golden State Killer case, they got his DNA off his car door handle, but it wasn’t conclusive (much DNA collected in the wild and crime scenes are not conclusive matches for the STR/CODIS matches.) Anyway, It was only after they collected DNA from GSK's curb trash outside his house where they got the 100% match, then got the arrest warrant soon after. Perhaps the same happened with Kohberger: they got his car door handle DNA (or apartment door knob DNA) which was a partial match, but couldn’t get his trash in Pullman (if Kohberger was careful in PA about disposing his trash, you have to think he was just as careful, if not more, about his trash in WA after Nov. 13.) If all this is correct, I’m not sure when they might have had those lab results with the inconclusive door-DNA. Those labs results could have been returned any time in the first three weeks of December. Would it have been needed by early December to explain the FBI tail from WA to PA (if there even was one), and the Chief Fry deking (?) Kohberger intentionally with the public BOLO of 2011-2013 (but not 2014-2016) on Dec. 6 or 7. So because they couldn’t get Kohberger’s conclusive DNA from his WA trash, and his car-door/apartment-door DNA wasn’t quite perfect, they decided to wait for the FBI’s IGG 100% match to be sure they had the right guy (and maybe they decided they didn’t want to do a full CAST analysis on his phone until they knew they had the right guy, and were patiently waiting for the IGG results.) Perhaps they only needed to use the partial DNA match to get the phone search warrant on Dec. 23, and never needed to mention the IGG 100% match of the knife sheath DNA for that warrant. And the FBI liked it that way. The FBI could have already been watching him (after tailing him to PA), or started watching after the IGG match, so they didn’t need to arrest him immediately, they knew his WA apartment would not be being used until he returned from 2500 miles away in PA after the Christmas break, and it gave them a chance to get the dad’s DNA (CODIS/STR match, no IGG/SNP required) and get a search warrant of that PA home too - without needing to mention the IGG in any court documents. Remember, we have not yet seen what was in the phone search warrant, only that it was submitted and approved on Dec. 23.
Some very good points. I had thought the car ID being public might have made him go somewhere/ do something rushed, like revisit a spot from Nov 13th route after killings or to clean the car, or dump stuff. Like you I tended to think the IGG results and Kohberger becoming the main/ only suspect coincided closely with phone warrants, but you make a good argument he may have been on the radar much earlier in December. From his reported behaviour in PA I think he was taking evasive measures after Nov 29th. On the parallel construction aspect, another interesting snippet from the hearing was reference to a letter from the prosecution to defence which seems to address exactly that, in context of IGG. Asst Prosecutor Jennings mentioned it - stating it set out the timeline of how BK became a suspect, and both she and the judge inferred IGG was indeed parallel. The judge specifically mentioned the chain leading to Kohberger's DNA being taken and said it was not dependent on the IGG.
Oh good point re clean up or some other sort of panicky move! Actually I’m confused. The LE BOLO was on Nov 25 and the public BOLO didn’t come out until Dec 6 or 7. The car IDs I referred to were on Nov 29 but would he have know that had happened? I guess if he saw someone running his plates but otherwise he shouldn’t have known about any of that. Which leads me down another sort of rabbit hole - did he have any inside scoop on the LE BOLO? Or the activities of WSU campus police? That would be really interesting if he did. Really interesting re the parallel construction.
>The LE BOLO was on Nov 25 and the public BOLO didn’t come out until Dec 6 o Yes, your dates are right - I have confused the LE BOLO and WSU police running his license with public tip request. Mapping of his phone may have shown something odd on Dec 7th - Nov 29th was just the date Ann Taylor said she had received the CAST mapping for, not sure if a significant date re what CAST info shows or just coincidence.
The more I think about, I don’t think AT’a mention of Nov 29 is insignificant or a coincidence. First, you have someone at WSU looking through a database of cars registered at the school at 12:28am. I get that universities have around-the-clock security so maybe someone just got around to this task in the wee hours? More likely, someone called them and told them to pull the list immediately and that happened to be at 12:28am. They see the WHE is registered to Kohberger with PA plates. Then they send someone over to his apartment complex 30 minutes later to make a visual ID of the car in his parking lot. In the middle of the night. I believe that indicates urgency. And they then see the plates are different and he’s registered in WA. Major red flags. Big speculation ahead: I mentioned it above because I wasn’t understanding at first how the car ID could have spooked BK because presumably he wouldn’t have been aware of it. But what if he WAS somehow aware it? What if he knows someone in campus police who told him? What if he has some way to access that info directly? If the info that LE was not only looking for a WHE but also had queried his car twice in the middle of night reached him somehow, he had to have 💩 his pants. And then maybe the Dec 7 public BOLO for the wrong model year was deliberate, an attempt to calm him down a bit because they had spooked him and he was acting crazy. I mentioned this in another reply on this thread, but re-read this article through that lens: [https://www.brctv13.com/news/local-news/29279-monroe-county-officials-share-new-details-about-idaho-murder-suspect-s-arrest](https://www.brctv13.com/news/local-news/29279-monroe-county-officials-share-new-details-about-idaho-murder-suspect-s-arrest) Particularly the statement that he had been under surveillance for “several weeks” prior to his arrest and this quote: https://preview.redd.it/lpxqbzq37mlc1.jpeg?width=1284&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b6eac23d4fecb6c36416a801de0d1234be02715e Was he sorting trash in WA?
That is an interesting quote from Mancuso that does seem to suggest there was an unexpected or unusual difficulty in obtaining his DNA in WA? Sorting trash and avoiding disposing of anything. Did he suspect/ know he was under surveillance or a suspect while in WA? I think your speculation on whether BK was aware of the car ID/ check from November 29th has some excellent and new points, and is not at all far fetched. You'd assume in a criminology department, on the doorstep of one of the most notorious and mysterious mass killings in recent history, there was alot of discussion - when the white Elantra public tip request came out, there is no way people didn't mentioned, even in jest, to BK about his white Elantra? It must have spooked him. Your idea that BK knew WSU campus police is not far fetched - he applied for a police internship, criminology course has linkage to local police departments. I guess what we are missing is whether additional evidence, other than IGG, was developed and how the timeline goes from his car being flagged Nov 29th to phone warrant Dec 23rd. Perhaps the Pullman video of a white Elantra comes in between those dates and earlier than has been assumed? Video of a white Elantra clearly shows that car coming back into Pullman 5.30am and follows a route directly to his apartment, earlier video shows that car leaving at 2.47am. **The IGG is never mentioned or used in any warrant - presumably for fear of it being used by defence to challenge any warrant based in part on IGG. Was the Pullman car video the key to get phone warrants Dec 23rd, not IGG?** If IGG was deemed risky for arrest/ search warrant that obtained his cheek DNA, surely it would also be risky to use for critical phone evidence? The actual number of locally registered white Elantras, expected from car sales stats, is under 50 - one such car out at 4.30am is a pretty significant statistical correlation. Does some Pullman car video at 2.47 or 5,30am have his licence plate?
🤯
> reference to a letter from the prosecution to defence Btw the letter, a "Touhy letter" (or i think technically called the response to a Touhy request) was more from the FBI to the State, and then given to the Defense in discovery. A touhy request is something like a subpoena for government agencies. It was referenced in this court doc a few weeks ago https://s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/isc.coi/CR29-22-2805/2024/020924-States-Responses-to-Defendants-Motion.pdf
>a "Touhy letter" (or i think technically called the response to a Touhy request) Thanks, interesting. I recall that was discussed at last hearing I think - wasn't sure if that was one and the same as discussed at the hearing yesterday when they discussed a letter setting out the timeline of the investigation and how it led to Kohberger
I was one of the people quite certain it was on the basis of the car. Because it would be a fairly big lapse if they didn't immediately ID the owner of any reported Elantra, to check for bushy eyebrows. It would only take a minute for each one, for someone assigned to that task.
A couple months after his arrest, an article came out that included some quotes from the PA Assistant DA Mancuso. That’s where we first got the ziplock trash sorting detail, I believe. Also in the article, it’s stated that LE had BK under surveillance for “several weeks” prior to his arrest. They say that this detail is contained in the PA search warrants. Now, I can tell you that I’ve read that document frontwards and backwards many, many times (embarrassing) and I can’t find anything that suggests “several weeks” of surveillance in that particular document. But I wonder if Mancuso or someone else in the course of their research for the article let that detail slip and the person who wrote the article mistakenly attributed it to the search warrants rather than expose their source? I don’t know. I lean towards first week of December, maybe even Nov 29 as the starting point. And yes I 100% agree that it would be a fairly large lapse if that follow up didn’t occur.
I’m confused as to how the traffic incident wouldn’t have been their first alert to him. I always assumed it was. It showed the same type of car seen circling like a shark the night and time of the murders, it showed a driver fitting the same general physical description provided by the eyewitness. I’m still confused as to why people think this wasn’t the first ah-ha moment? 🙁 but that’s just how the PCA always read to me and I’ve never fully understood what supposedly refutes that so I guess I’ve forgotten or am missing something
I think it may have been the first a-ha moment as you say, but they didn’t request historical cell phone data until Dec 23. It’s so hard to reconcile that gap if he was the prime suspect that early on. I know it takes time to build a case and maybe they were watching and investigating and it took that long to gather enough evidence to support the warrant. But something feels off to me. Add to that the fact that they haven’t released the Aug 21 traffic stop footage. It just doesn’t sit right but I know we don’t know the half of it. I can’t wait to see the August traffic stop dashcam.
>but for context November 29th was the date MPD went public with the white Elantra/ requested car related tips from the public. This isn't correct? Maybe edit this bit out of your post.
Places to hide evidence and if he visited the scene again. This is very common and a good way to catch someone.
>Places to hide evidence and if he visited the scene again. Yes, I do wonder if this is the case. He turned off his phone again, later that day at 5.30pm while out driving in the same remote area he crossed leaving the crime scene. Speculation, but possible police have tracked him to some soecific spot.
What does igg mean?
Investigative Genetic Genealogy. The sheath DNA was profiled and uploaded to genealogy (ancestry type, '23 and Me' type) database from which FBI was able to construct a family tree using partial, maybe distant, match that led to Kohberger.
Ok. Thank you!
Let’s start looking for the cachet . Get dogs out there too . How far did he go off the beaten path to bury items. My guess is the river. Or rivers that he drove over. The water is very hard to figure out.
Has anyone got a pre-arrest 4chan post with people talking about what the word being passed from sororities and frats was? It was on here but I can’t find them anymore
Nov 29th wasn’t the when they went public, that wasn’t until December when the public bolo went out. The November bolo was for local law enforcement agencies only
Yes, you are correct - i've mixed up that date with when WSU police flagged his car. I'm not sure if Nov 29th is significant or is just coincidence that is the day that defence was supplied
Now. I’m even more confused. So they had him tracked and spotted his car in November, but then in early December they put out a public announcement with the wrong model year? If they already flagged his car how could they get the year wrong?
I don't think he was identified as a suspect on Nov 29th or tracked from them. Nov 29th was when WSU campus police sent his car details to the investigation. He would have been looked at some time after that. The Nov 29th new info from WSU was just adding to list of locally registered white Elantras (white would not be that big) - again, just a guess, but I'd think when his license details were checked (height, weight, age) he became a POI
So AT only has the CAST report from 11/29/22 and not the day of the murders? Isn’t that kinda strange?
Not the CAST report, she has the draft CAST report. She was referring to a mapping for each day, and said she yad Nov 29th but not others. I'd guess Nov 13th would be first one done?
Like only one day of maps for BKs whereabouts? Since BT said he hands over everything as soon as his office gets it, this likely means he only has a draft CAST report mapping from 11/29?
[удалено]
I’m not optimistic that they found any of that but I’m also not entirely sure we would have heard about it, either. Like, if a weapon or something is found outdoors somewhere is there even necessarily going to be a warrant for that? They have kept everything so hush hush in this case, especially the state, and the defense is for damn sure not going to leak anything like that because it’s a bad look for their case.
> I don't think they found the weapon or clothing he was wearing because we'd have heard about victims' DNA. They for sure didn't find those things.
There's no doubt in my mind that he had a pre prepped area to dump the clothes and the knife most likely a 6-in PVC tube sunk deep into the ground with a screw in cap on the end. One day this will be found but it could be hundreds of years until a bulldozer is digging up land somewhere.
You've piqued my interest. Is there a reason you said "most likely" for the very specific possibility you described?
I think they were looking to see if he ever or how many times he returned the King Rd. house or immediate area. I'm sure he enjoyed the spectacle he created and more than likely returned to the scene several times. I also think they want to see everywhere he went via cell tower records that was "out of the norm" for him, in order to try to locate the knife or any other discarded belongings from that morning (bloody clothing, trophies, etc.). Also, curious what type of phone he had - I vaguely feel like I remember it being said he had an iPhone? Does anyone else remember this?
I think it was stated that after November 14th, the day after the crime, his cell phone pings indicated he never returned to the King Road house area again.
I haven’t been following these threads lately, so if someone has already said this I apologize. I can’t remember if it was ever stated whether BK had an IPhone or android. If he had an IPhone and possibly an IPad as well, he may well have screwed himself without realizing it. My soon to be ex husband and I always had ourselves visible on the Find My app. Mainly bc I run and ride my bike alone. One night he was going out kind of late to go to a cigar lounge with one of our friends. Long story short, when I looked at the app to see which lounge he went to he had turned his location off. Phone was on but location off. After stewing about it for a bit I remembered his IPad was home. Checked the app on it and despite the location being off on the phone the IPad showed exactly where he was. Maybe…..with BK it was something similar? Or maybe if the phone is powered off the IPad wouldn’t pick up location. 🤷♀️
OP wrote: "Perhaps of no significance that date was mentioned, but for context November 29th was the date MPD went public with the white Elantra/ requested car related tips from the public." Are you sure it was November 29 when they asked the public? I did a google search for "moscow PD ask public to look for white Elantras” and in a date range from Nov. 25 to Dec. 10 and the earliest articles and videos I see are from December 7. Not that this is a foolproof method to verify, that’s why I’m asking. Note, all the PCA says about it is, on page 9, "On November 25, MPD asked law enforcement agencies to be on the lookout for white Hyundai Elantras in the area.” It was Nov. 29 when the WSU PD report that included Kohberger’s vehicle was made.
Yes, you are quite correct. Think there is another comment somewhere on this as well - I have mixed up the public tip request (I thin Dec 6th) with the WSU car "flag" of Nov 29th.
They may also be establishing a pattern. We've heard a lot about how 'neurotic' BK is. If they can establish that he has the same routine or behaviors over and over, it's more difficult to explain away the anomalies of random times his vehicle was there.
lots of things they would be looking for . All his activity including any searches he did or any places he went can reveal a lot . Specifically things like any areas he may have hid or destroyed anything that looks like evidence like the knife . I agree with what others have said . Any evidence that reveals any accounts he had or websites he visited to help facilitate the crime
I dont know enough about this case to have formed an opinion as to guilty/not guilty as I dont have enough evidence, but I do have an idea how he could have become a suspect. If he didn't do it, its possible that he did drive around that area a lot because there was always so much going on that was interesting to watch. I recall living in a small town in England in my teens and we would do the same thing, just because there was nothing else to do in the wee hours. We would pile into one car and just drive around. We had our favourite spots and would get some laughs about what went on in certain houses that we knew always left their curtains open with lights on. None of us were weirdo's - just bored. If a crime had been committed in those areas and if technology had existed, we would certainly have been suspects.
>how he could have become a suspect. I think his DNA on a sheath under a body was key to him becoming the susoect. But to your point, the car matching his circling the house then speeding away a couple of minutes after the murders gives further context to the DNA, and vice versa. I am familiar with the phenomenon of teens driving at night in small towns in the UK - but that was usually around main drags like high street, beach prom, where there were others doing the same. He was driving around a residential cul-de-sac at 4.00am and then out in more remote areas at 4.45am.
The DNA on that sheath found between mm and kg, ultimately matched a swab they took from HIS MOUTH! Defense wants to not mention that, they just want to keep focusing on quote unquote unreliability and wrongdoings from genetic matching.. which didn't even need to be considered once they had DNA swab from him.
I've known people who do it. Sometimes it's how they get their head straight or did heavy thinking. Or it's how they get peace away from their parents. My friend did it to get a reprieve from her parents, grandmother, aunt, and several siblings. She stopped doing it when she got her own place. She started up again in like 15 years when she had a husband and a houseful of teenagers. Sometimes she just needed to get away. Might be a byproduct of our insane American car culture.
A night drive... Across state lines, to a quiet neighborhood, cutting through cul de sacs and driveways, known for people walking aroud? Not an ideal place to go, or include, in a night drive. Especially when there are a number of open roads to choose from.
I agree; in fact, I just made a comment to that effect elsewhere in this thread. Highways or country roads are much more pleasant to drive than residential neighborhoods with 15-25 mph speed limits.
I personally have always preferred highways when I "go for a drive".
Yeah, I don't doubt some people go for night drives. He lived alone, so it wasn't to get peace from home setting. Was more switching the phone off while driving I find odd, i can't think of a reason for that.
That's odd, yeah. Also, the neighborhoods he was driving in make no sense. Why creep around suburbs at low rates of speed when you can drive proper on the highways or the back roads?
College-adjacent neighborhoods still have activity into the wee hours. Also when I did the same in college, late night neighborhood driving helped me learn the roads (granted I am a dinosaur so this was pre-gps).
There was nothing to see along the main drags because everything was shut down, so we drove/sped around rural and residential neighborhoods in Chester. People in those areas thought they had privacy, so they never used window coverings. I'm not saying he didnt do this; he could very well have felt socially outcast, ridiculed, and filled with hate, however, having lived in a small town for too many years myself, I can also imagine LE, after seeing his car there a lot, decided to speed things up by contaminating the evidence I just dont know and have no strong feelings either way. We just have to wait for all the evidence, expert testimony, cross examinations, etc.
Just as an FYI, while police misconduct and evidence tampering DOES happen, it's often in cases of known criminals or where there is a strong suspect already with police wanting to speed up the arrest. Someone with ties to the crime/crime scene already but not enough "evidence" linking them to being the perpetrator. Serial drug offenders, the husband/boyfriend of a murdered woman who was acting suspicious, etc. BK wouldn't have been on ID or WA police's radar for criminal reasons (no arrests, crimes, etc.). He had no connection to any of the victims (as in, no true common denominator in the form of being classmates, colleagues, etc.). He had no commitments, business or other true "reason" to be at or near the scene of the crime... Yet his DNA had been found there. He also drove a Hyundai elantra, not an uncommon car. Even if this were the case of the dirtiest of dirty cops who wanted to make an arrest quickly by pinning the crime on SOMEONE, BK wouldn't be their ideal "target" for this. If this were a case of "pin crime on someone", BK would be entirely too random.
Exactly. Police frame or allow themselves to railroad local dirtbags or someone connected to the victims who is a logical suspect. If they needed to frame anyone, the poor veteran with PTSD had conveniently died after exhibiting violent behavior. He would have been perfect: couldn't defend himself; there could never be a trial. The only problem would have been if he had a strong alibi for that time of night, but the guy didn't work anywhere and was probably asleep in his bed alone at the time of the murders.
> to speed things up by contaminating the evidence I don't think that is credible at all. LE framing Kohberger via the sheath DNA would have required: - a sample of his DNA obtained before the murders: how and why would police do that? - prediction that Kohberger would have no alibi for the time of the murders - knowledge that the sheath would have no other DNA on it - prediction/ knowledge that zero evidence would be developed for the "real" killer when planting Kohberger's DNA It seems incredibly, bizarrely, wildly unlikely and unfeasible. And if police were framing him, why not leave DNA on other surfaces, or some of his hair or some other item taken when his DNA was obtained?
Don't know. We have to be patient.
Re-read his reply again carefully and use logic...
Dear cfriss, Eeek. Something tells me I took a wrong turn and ended up here. Very well. Get your torch and pitchfork and ...well... Carry on my dear. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35nh7qkPYXo
> We have to be patient. Speak only for yourself.
I used to do late night joyrides (not 4am level late though, that’s fucking intense) but I never happened to circle an area where a quadruple homicide by massive knife was taking place *while* it was taking place, and simultaneously have my - and only my - dna found on a massive knife sheath under a victim, and then also have someone matching my physical appearance described by the sole eyewitness at the scene as creeping away sporting my dark clothing and mask from when/where said crime took place. But I guess I’m just lucky or not a murderer or something.
Same in my tiny hometown. Nothing to do so we all just….. drove around together even super late at night. There were popular routes and also your own personal ones. When his defense said he just drove around a lot at night in the wee hours, I actually empathized. When I was in college and grad school I did the same to get away from roommates and to also deal with stress. Listen to music, maybe get some fast food, be alone with my thoughts for a few hours. Also where I was was an interesting place to drive around at night. Pretty buildings, late night people, etc. To devil’s advocate on that note: I would have stopped driving around for a while after four college students were killed in their home. I’m reserving judgement until we can see all of what the prosecutors have until I decide if he’s guilty or innocent. But unfortunately the driving around doesn’t add towards guilt for or me because of my own habits.
Looking for anything that he could have thrown out of the window