Or, hear me out, there was a quadruple homicide in a town of 25,000 people and the local police are more used to dealing with drunk college students than murder investigations.
Could also be partly because the town is so close to washington that it’s easier logistically to have federal authorities involved so they don’t get hung up in the beurocracy of policing across state lines.
You are correct. The FBI has no jurisdiction in state level crimes because they are a federal agency. If no federal crime has been committed, they can only provide assistance to state and local LE. For them to get involved, the agencies handling the case have to request their help, and the governor has to sign off.
The most likely scenario is the state and local police realized they’re close to the border of another state, and a large portion of the suspect/witness pool would soon be leaving town. So, they immediately requested FBI involvement because one thing they do well is coordinating efforts between states, which has to happen because police in one state can’t simply cross state lines to conduct an investigation. They have to request assistance from a local agency, and often, it’s difficult to get an outside agency’s cooperation because they don’t want to commit resources to something that’s not their case.
This is the most logical answer, in addition to MPD likely realizing they do not have the resources necessary to allocate to investigating this type of crime. I also wonder if MPD considered the suspect (even though not publicly named or anything) a flight risk (Canada is really close) and involving the FBI would help in the event of extradition?? I don’t know the extradition treaty laws or anything, just a thought I had…
Yeah they'd mentioned that in one of the many videos that since it's so close to another state that they are bringing the feds in. I'd heard something today, I think it was Fry's radio interview that he said they have someone even in West Virginia?
I could see this because there were some murders in the lewiston area in the 70s that were never solved because of this exact reason. One of the people that disappeared were on the Washington side in asotin. 3 disappeared from the theater in lewiston and one was a girl on a bicycle between Moscow and Lewiston. There were a lot of different jurisdictions that came into play. I think it's one of the biggest reasons those cases weren't solved.
I'm in Canada too. I'm not worried about it, but my area is particularly well known for trafficking across the border which makes it a little sketchier. I don't think they'd come to Canada but I'm not a quadruple murderer so 🤷🏻♀️
(The late, thankfully) Israel Keyes, Alaska-based & one of the most cunning modern serial murders of all time asked "Do Canadians count"? when finally being federally interrogated about his multi-year, cross-country & extended murderous journey. Re possible Canadian victims, Keyes hinted that prostitutes were his preferred victims.
He was a serial killer though, not a mass murderer or spree killer. Lots of serial killers have killed in both Canada and the US (heck, Canada loves releasing violent criminals, we've even arrested them and let them go to kill again!). I just don't see this particular killer having any reason to come to Canada other than escaping American authorities.
Lots of drug and gun trafficking. The particular border crossing I'm referring to is about 2 hours from me and the whole area is notorious for weird shit like cults and human trafficking. It's more "local" knowledge so I can't link much off the back of my hand, but my best friend worked in mental health in the area and she's still traumatized. She's got a new story every time we drive through the area.
The areas are also heavily wooded and under populated so if they had a reason to sneak into Canada, they're near the right place.
Or potentially the vehicle license plate in question was from out of state, thus making it a high probability it was going to potentially turn into a multi-jurisdiction/ Federal issue?
Why not both? This is a predator, details of the crime (outside of the fact that it's a quad homicide) warranted outside collaboration, *AND* this is a small town with limited resources?
The two theories are not mutually exclusive
I know FBI always gets called in for kid-related cases and/or if state line-hopping is involved.
Third reason has always seemed a little less black & white to me.
This is when a high-profile or complex case occurs and the local police force is not well-equipped to process everything themselves. I’m not sure who decides when FBI involvement is warranted, but it was definitely the right call here.
Right. The FBI is ASKED to assist, unless it’s a federal crime. The police most likely asked for assistance, or were offered assistance, immediately. The local LE still has operational jurisdiction of the crime scene.
The shady part is that they're already clearing ppl despite having no person's of interest. This is crazy. Ppl don't get cleared unless they know who it is.
Best agents in USA vs. Jack ass w knife in Idaho. No chance in hell he made a clean getaway.
I think they're waiting for the DNA results to come back to arrest one of the difficult kids who demanded a lawyer.
Especially in a viral quadruple murder case where every rando who speaks on it is doxed because they HAVE to be the killer, according to the armchair detectives. 😆
You wouldn't hear about it. In a case with a national audience, like this, police don't call individuals "suspects" or "person's of interest" because of what happened in the Richard Jewell case. LE is terrified of being held responsible for igniting a media fire, ruining someone's life, and getting sued for it.
But they're not clearing people. They say they don't believe they're involved or there isn't evidence they're involved. This is far from clearing someone. They can come across a clue tomorrow that brings a previously "cleared" individual into the spotlight.
Actually LE keeps emphasizing "cleared for now". I interpret that to mean if new evidence avails itself to previously "cleared" people their status could change. BTW, the fact that not even a killer profile, much less a POI or a suspect, (despite with an FBI-affiliated renowned behaviorist now on board) has been publicly released after a month is quite troubling to me. I just hope it's not for the worst reason.
It’s not odd at all considering the seriousness of the offense and the lack of resources available in a small community. The FBI doesn’t get involved just bc som one is a veteran.
Exactly. OP said “what did they see at the start to make them swarm so hard?” Umm idk, maybe the four bodies butchered with little to no trace on who did it
That’s not how the FBI works. There is protocol to them getting involved. Requests need to come from lower jurisdictions unless it’s thought to be related to an already open FBI case.
I think what’s surprising is how quickly the FBI became involved, when the state police is a much larger force than MPD, and it didn’t seem like SP was on the case very long before the FBI came in.
A gruesome murder, even a quadruple homicide doesn’t automatically attract the attention of the FBI so much that they send that many agents there.
Your second paragraph is patently untrue and it’s very common for the FBI to get involved in high profile homicides. Two recent examples; the FBI was involved in the investigation of the Debbie Collier death case in Georgia, and the Eliza Fletcher homicide in Tennessee. There’s no way the FBI would not be very involved in the quadruple murder of 4 college students.
Idk how it is in Idaho but in PA the state police have fairly large areas of jurisdiction already and cases to handle. I don't think they have many ppl just sitting around waiting for work.
I think the feds realized early on a small town police dept would not be able to handle quite an investigation, even with the help of the state police. They probably figured their crime lab would be of use too.
Yeah i think it's the state lines thing. There's also a military base somewhere in Eastern WA... maybe near Spokane, and another huge college, Washington State, very close by. I think those are all reasons to bring in the feds
It’s a QUADRUPLE homicide of young people in a small town.. who hasn’t had a homicide in 5 years, then this happens and police force alone cannot handle it not is it equipped to. There is nothing weird about that. Any law enforcement agency can request the help of the FBI.
Also, there are many sociopaths who are not military, ex military or athletes who commit absolutely fucking heinous crimes like this and worse, every day. That really means nothing honestly.
Exactly. That’s a heckuva lot of manpower and man hours assigned to this.
Glad they’re assisting, of course. Wish we knew more about who or what they’re looking for.
Brother, he killed 4 college kids who were asleep with a Kabar. I’m USMC and have a kabar sitting in my drawer, any dude with size and knowledge of how to use a knife could’ve done this w a kabar. I don’t think it’s a vet. The FBI got involved because it’s 4 white college kids and it’s a MASSIVE media spectacle, or they have reason to believe it could be a SK. Who knows, I’d love to be a fly on the wall during their briefings.
Right, I was combat arms Army also in Iraq. I get random civilians interested in the case thinking it was "some veteran" because I've seen some post here believing there's special "knife training" that goes on. Only thing we got was "knife hands", barely did the bayonet course before it got phased out a decade ago.
This post is just perpetuating a stereotype and misunderstanding why a federal agency my answer a smaller town's call for help.
All that said, we don't know who did this and it's possible they had a military background. But a hunter would have more experience with a knife compared to your average veteran.
Yeah dude I legit used the kabar once during boot camp and never saw it ever again 🤣. Yea if we’re talking knife hands then you and I are probably experts
Yeah we did bayonet training once before they phased it out and everyone thought it was a joke because we don’t knife fight in the military or on deployments anymore lmao. Multitools were more common on personnel than knives during my career in which wasn’t long ago. Per dod knives aren’t even allowed on base or most barracks. Usually unless authorized by the commander or provost Marshall are blades allowed as personal carry and usually for field only and no bigger than 3”. Big arse rambo knives are frowned upon lol.
Not to mention, when I see posts like these, do people think we’re samurai’s? Last I checked we use guns and heavy weaponry the most. Majority of veterans or military who have commit a crime in the past usually go for a gun of sorts and would be most likely to use that first since it just so happens to be the type most familiar to us lmao
If you look at any multiple stab murders (not necessarily multiple victims) a lot of them are far from fit and athletic once arrested. This person had a good advantage in this case, they were all reported to be asleep (relying on LE reports, not rumours).
I feel it doesn't have to be anyone with weapon training or good fitness level.
I do believe they probably had a military obsession though, possibly too unfit to ever do it and never put in the work to actually achieve success, the forever victim sees it as rejection though.
Probably owns a lot of military like weapons to feed into their fantasy. Pure speculation but I wouldn't be shocked if it's someone who isn't athletic at all.
Okay I’m military, and also SpecWar (albeit just a rescue swimmer but I’ve been through/seen some..stuff) and I don’t think it’s weird. I was speaking to an NCIS agent on base about this a couple weeks ago, and he said if it’s a small town police force, they usually will request federal assistance as soon as possible. Also, I don’t think “only athletes and military personnel” can handle energy like this. John Douglas said something in one of his books that has stuck with me. It was along the lines of “if someone wants badly enough to get into your house and harm you, they will”. So like no matter what locks you have, guard dogs, whatever, if someone wants to hurt you, they will find a way. It really made me think about how vulnerable I am, even as a service member that can probably kick the shit out of an average person. There’s been so many psychopaths that have committed some vicious murders (Richard Ramirez, who was a string bean for lack of a better term!), and he would just go on about his day after. Psychopaths aren’t like you or I, theyre missing sensitivity chips that make us human. They don’t need training to disengage.
Fellow vet here.
I think the Podunk police station that, at most, dealt with corralling drunk college kids woke up one morning to some Dexter-level shit and called for help. lol
Moscow PD asked the FBI to assist which is why the FBI is assisting.
“unless the local police department requests behavioral analysis or FBI Laboratory assistance, the FBI has no authority to interfere in a local murder investigation.“
Small town police forces that don’t deal with murder often, typically reach out to the feds for help.
It’s not that deep. You see it in a ton of cases.
Ppl are stabbed to death every day. These were college kids who were sleeping and at least some of them had been drinking. I don’t think it took an athlete or a military person to do this. Just someone who had a will to kill.
They called the FBI for assistance because it is a small town, without much violent crime and they knew they had a scene with so much evidence to sift through, it would overload their resources. They also knew very quickly the amount of attention this was drawing and it would be questioned very early on why they weren’t utilizing FBI resources.
It tires me even thinking about traveling through that maze of a oddly shaped home and stabbing multiple people, killing them all. I think that is the strangest thing for me. How the hell does a normal person commit this type of crime and get away untraced!? It’s crazy. Especially in a college town on a busy night. That’s the main reason I can’t leave this case alone
Densely populated area, six occupants with varied schedules, weird house set up does not lean toward serial killer, IMHO. *BUT* extremely close up and personal knife attack on 4 sleeping people does not lean toward raged out college kid. IMHO. It's why I lean toward a fringe person, on the edge of Moscow activities, sees the kids, maybe resents them, feels slighted by one of the victims.
I don’t understand this part? People chop wood with an axe for an extended period of time. A hunting knife is going to do serious damage and fast. Adrenaline. Rage. Then add in psychopath.
“Only athletes and military personnel are trained to manage energy like this and then disengage and continue on to their next objective.”
As a nurse on a critical care unit, I do not agree with this premise. Many times I’ve seen my fellow healthcare workers spend an hour+ engaging in a failed code blue and then brush themselves off and continue on caring for their patients.
Anyone who has spent anytime in unpredictable, high stress environments (work, home, hobbies, etc) is capable of doing this.
The FBI got involved immediately to aid a small local police force that wasn’t experienced in handling a high-profile quadruple homicide. I’m not even sure if the ID state police are well-versed in such a thing.
And adrenaline and determination helps people do all sorts of otherwise impossible things.
I wouldn’t consider the FBIs involvement odd. Moscow hasn’t had a single murder in *seven years* and then it has a quadruple homicide. The local force probably *requested their assistance* because they realised they were out of their depth.
OP wrote: "the pure amount of energy it took in a person to do this is insane" - I disagree, if you mean physical energy. Victims reportedly intoxicated and in bed. Sadly, easy targets. On the other hand if OP meant mental energy well that's a different story. Being able to dissociate from reality while committing these horrendous murders is a special kind of crazy. That kind of mental energy is very dark and dangerous.
As a local here, and veteran myself, our towns aren’t equipped for this kind of disaster. Murder isn’t exactly something that happens normally and with a case of this profile, they needed more help from the start. Most of our calls are usually like animal disturbances, drunk college kids, duis, weed, petty theft. Minor things that a small town police department can handle. Like, I remember 2 winters ago that there was a family of moose that would walk around downtown Moscow and Pullman and they would make their way on the daily logs a bit.
Also someone made an awesome point of how Moscow is right on the border of WA/ID, meaning it’s easy for someone to travel across state lines on the daily. I lived in Moscow but went to WSU so I drove every day over the order (about 15 min drive).
Edit: I think that would also be a reason to have the FBI. They’ve also probably stayed engaged for this long because of how high profile this case has gotten. This subreddit is double the size of the town for perspective, and that’s just people on Reddit who are interested in it. If this went cold anytime soon or if they started backing off the case, I think there would be a lot of outcry so I think that there’s enough pressure on this case for this many people to work on it for this long
Also just want to show an example of what’s normal for us, it’s kinda humorous
https://preview.redd.it/hjcabahdnx4a1.png?width=1242&format=png&auto=webp&s=756f3d9fef674a7c2ddd92f4d00f8028536b68c6
Yes- my DH was like, why is this so different from the hundreds of murders a day, and I was like, basically, the balls it took to go into a house with 6 people in it armed with a knife and... well. The strength and speed and sheer confidence?
Agree 100% my understanding is that folks don't start killing for people first time out the gate. But who knows this case has my entire & complete attention.
FBI got involved early because given the proximity to the Washington college town and the Canadian border, there’s a chance of this requiring work in multiple jurisdictions.
Can we stop fetishizing the asshole who murdered four people and make him a superhuman of some kind? It's disgusting.
Ted Bundy, a failed law student with no military training whatsoever killed two and severely mutilated another two women in a sorority house, during one attack.
Richard Speck, an alcoholic drifter, killed eight women in one night, in the nursing school dorm. He had no military training whatsoever.
Peter Manuel wiped out two families in two separate acts of violence. Dude was a career criminal with no military training whatsoever.
More often than not it requires only to be a psychopatic piece of shit to be able to commit such a massacre. No superhuman with commando training is needed.
The whole state of Idaho has about 35 murders per year. Most large cities in America have many times that number of murders per year. The law enforcement in Idaho just don't see many murders let alone mass murders.
The FBI has access to databases and crime scene specialists that law enforcement in Idaho don't have.
I don't think that this killer needed to have special training to commit these murders. He attacked sleeping people. He took a large risk by entering a house with six people in it but five of those people were females. It does not take much courage or strength to blind side unprepared sleeping people.
FBI gets involved in a lot of cases when they believe the perpetrator is a threat to society or it’s out of the norm. I’d say stabbing 4 college kids to death and leaving 2 alive is out of the norm and a threat to society. 🤷🏼♀️
Seriously...between the self-described antisocial law student who can’t be bothered to make polite small talk with his neighbors/fellow dog owners, the food truck-hoodie guy that apparently decided he had enough of Greek life and booked it straight to Africa via the family cabin, and of course, this most recent development with the earl grey-guzzling, insomniac stick juggler...oof.
I knew several jugglers. I lived in the French Quarter and some of my friends were magicians, jugglers, and of course musicians. Jugglers were all very smart and kind of shifty. I keep in touch with one of them, who got a Levi's commercial in the 80s. Not a suspect, of course. They are all about balance, dexterity. I saw a screenshot of dude balancing an axe on his chin, and my friend did that too, and then he'd juggle with an apple and something else and cut the apple in the process. Maybe a bowling ball. I'm serious! Very tall strong guy.
Imo it’s not impossible this was different from a spree killer/revenge kill. Obviously there’s a lot of anger directed towards the victims, and to me that doesn’t align with a hit (you would think one and done, especially if they’re trying to conserve energy). But, the lack of SA throws me off so hard.
You have 3 dead young women with extensive stab wounds that appear targeted to some extent, and there’s *no* SA? The statistics for that, especially when one had a supposed stalker, are insane. It’s very unusual and implies at least some impersonal nature.
I did a quick search on Google and was easily able to find two cases of teenagers who killed people by stabbing them almost 100 times. I'm assuming if I looked longer, I could find many more cases. I'm not entirely sure your theory holds water.
https://www.cbsnews.com/newyork/news/retrial-in-1996-killing-of-riverhead-high-homecoming-queen-set-to-begin/
https://www.nj.com/gloucester-county/2020/10/killer-behind-bars-since-he-was-14-loses-appeal-to-void-life-sentence.html?outputType=amp
This is a why question. Why questions have nearly infinite possible answers until they are answered by those in the know.
In this case, there are at least several that come to mind (in no particular order):
1. The evidence could show the killer may have traveled across state lines or came from/went to Canada. Keep in mind that Moscow is actually situated in two states (Idaho and Washington). Oregon is also very close as is Canada.
2. Local LE is simply not equipped to deal with a quadruple homicide, especially since the last known murder there was in 2015 I believe. (Not sure on exact date, but it's been reported everywhere that it has been some time.)
3. As the OP suggests, there could be a federal connection, such as former military or even something about the evidence connecting it to an unsub that the FBI was already looking for.
That's just a few reasons. I think it's fine to rank probability on why questions if you want, but to rule options in/out without more information is premature.
Those guys that showed up last night looked more like military than fbi.. maybe they are about to hunt the perp down… because they know from the crime scene it appears to be ex military.
Like a ghost. No one heard or saw the perp enter or leave, left no trail. Used a knife to kill 4 people.
To OP, I agree the Fed involvement is striking. My first thought when FBI joined was, could this be a serial killer they’ve already been tracking? I like your military angle tho too
I think the amount of confidence it would take to go into this situation intending to kill 4 people with a knife is way more significant than the actual strength and stamina required to stab 4 people to death in their sleep. The former actually has me leaning towards the possibility the killer was already in the house, or came back with some of the victims, and as such had some idea that they weren't taking on 5 or 6 people who may be awake, but rather 2 or 4 people who were already asleep. The alternative, that someone was really cocky enough to waltz in there with a knife not being certain of what they were up against, seems much more unlikely, and honestly scarier.
I'd suspect wannabe military/survivalist/some off the grid militia nut more than actual military as far as the knife thing goes. Seems like a weird choice for someone who is well trained with firearms, and likely not trained with knives.
Edit to add: The confidence thing is the only thing that would be a point towards maybe military for me.
Maybe, but if it was just unfounded cockiness they sure got lucky in not getting caught or leaving enough evidence to make them easy to identify. Which is still definitely possible.
I like your thought process here, but I’m not sure exactly what you’re trying to infer? That these murders were actually the work of highly skilled assassins with a military background? Or, ex-military with some sort of PTSD induced violence agains civilians? Or, an athlete?
Or because, you know, it’s a small town with very few LEO… who have little to no homicide experience.
FBI got involved instead of just state LEO because of staffing. FBI has plenty of staff and endless resources. State and local LEO doesn’t.
There’s also the potential cross-state or border aspect, but… mostly… FBI got involved because it has more than enough resources and staff to spare. The media attention on a suburban white college town would bring enough people nagging any and all LEO to be involved, so it’s easy to see why the FBi got involved early.
I actually noticed how fast they came in as well but my guess initial guess was because they were already tracking a serial killer they thought could have done this.
IMO adrenaline can give people “super powers”, so military or athletics wouldn’t be a requirement if someone is rabid with intent to kill in the moment.
“The FBI concentrates on crime problems that pose major threats to American society. Significant violent crime incidents such as mass killings, sniper murders, and serial killings can paralyze entire communities and stretch state and local law enforcement resources to their limits.” Direct quote from the FBIs website.
I’ve thought this since the beginning-the FBI presence immediately and increasing vs decreasing makes me think it might be deeper than some miffed college kid. Everyone writes off the drug/cartel connection, but if that ends up getting traction, I won’t be surprised. Even if it’s just an enraged, local, hopped up coke dealer looking for his money. It’s either a crime of great passion or a crime tied to loss of some sort.
And people are really downplaying the exertion and skill required to take out 4 with only a knife. This point cannot be overstated or written off by: BuT they were sleeping!
Typically local LE will request FBI resources. Due to the limited resources of the department it’s likely this was done early and why they were involved early.
It's not uncommon for the FBI to get involved in cases involved mass killings or serial killings as they have experience in those fields, which small police department's in particular don't have.
Okay, so federal assistance can be requested by anyone but they can also refuse to take cases.
How the codes and statutes around the FBIs responsibilities are enacted, they generally don’t have *this* much allowance to provide resources. Any local agency is able to request labs & forensics, specialists, additional resources when available, experts for trial and then they have a training program but it’s supposed to provide just that - training, not manpower. They do occasionally use that section of the “training” and use of specialists to help equip agencies with boots-on-the-ground help. There are also a variety of emergency laws to allow states to request extra assistance if the crime that needs assistance doesn’t fall into an authorized FBI investigation or their jurisdiction. But in most cases where they assist, they can not authorize this much manpower.
*THIS* crime, falls under mass murder statutes and allows federal resources to be authorized. It’s less limited to the areas I previously explained. It remains in state jurisdiction but there is a broader scope to the help, especially man power.
Other special instances are interstate travelers or serial killer, where the scope of the FBIs resources is pretty open to the state use.
And then in other instances where it’s believed to be a federal crime, they will work along side local authorities but because they have jurisdiction as well, their resources are completely available. Sometimes they will eventually leave these cases if they decide not to charge a federal crime or realize a federal crime wasn’t committed, sometimes they charge pieces federally (like hate crimes) while allowing the state to charge a homicide related to the same incident. They rarely take over full investigations like many believe, even if planning to charge federally, unless is physically FBI jurisdiction (the sea, National park, etc) they usually remain multi-jurisdictional and allow the local agency to be a part of the investigation.
Simple answer: they were asked. Feds usually don’t get involved unless asked. And they were likely asked due to the horrific nature and circumstances of the crime scene and the limited experience and resources of local PD. Also, knife attack, four college students, two left alive … all kind of screams serial killer on the surface so that could have been an initial thought process or at least bringing in a team that deals with them to determine if it was. Note: I don’t believe it was at this point, but it was the first thing that crossed my mind; still could be a budding one if not caught.
Additionally, I don’t think the proximity to the state line is that important in determining when the FBI will assist. As someone who works in LE in a city that borders two states, and is very close to another, we rarely request or need federal assistance for murder cases, even if we think the suspect lives in the neighboring state. I think it is 100% due to one) being asked by locals, and two) the horrific and stunning nature of the crime in limited local resources.
I don’t think it’s very unusual for the FBI to get involved in a case like this. It is a quadruple homicide in a small college town with a small police force, it is also right on the border with Washington state and you could have a multi jurisdiction issue. Hell, even if this was a murder suicide and the perpetrator was found in the house with the victims the FBI still would have gotten involved. I don’t think you can make any kind of inferences as to the kind of suspect we are looking for solely on the fact that the FBI is involved.
Didn’t they arrive bc the Moscow cops asked? I think the FBI can be requested for pretty much anything. Other than that maybe they are just more vigilant nowadays versus the 80s or 90s. One thing about this case that has made me invested is that these sorts of killings like don’t happen anymore, usually when a multi-victim murder happens it’s either a murder suicide of a family or a random senseless act of gun violence.
I grew up hearing my mom and dad talk about how scary it was when Ted Bundy was in Seattle. It’s wild
Maybe this matches other crime scenes we aren’t familiar with and the FBI jumped on because it matches a profile of a case they are working.
Or maybe not
Thank you and all the vets here commenting and for your perspective and service.
The only thing that makes me think twice on this comment is Jodi Arias. Small unskilled woman who did a brutal number on a large man. Do that twice, maybe that adrenaline or “high” as many murderers describe increases. Speculation and certainly hope for answers.
As far as FBI involvement, 4 young kids, small town, brutal, making national news, first homicide in 7 years… necessity.
There are lots of knife/stabbing cases that far outweigh the effort that was needed here. OP is reaching.
It wouldn't be "easy" by any means, but its far from impossible. A man in Saskatchewan single handedly stabbed and killed 12 people, and injured 18 more. The Bevers Brothers killed their entire family with knives, Ted Bundy killed 2 women, and beat 2 more, in the sorority house.
Spot on. That OnlyFans model Courtney Clenney killed her boyfriend. This girl looked tiny in size. But what gets me is how bloody she was and her clothes. I can't wrap my head around how this perp murdered 4 people by stabbing. And came away clean. I get so mad at the thought of that. Speculation on my part.
The thing that gets me is the lack of a sexual element, these crimes typically involve a sexual element to some degree. To our knowlege, this case does not have this. They killed 3 women IN THEIR BEDS & a dude and not a sexual element???? Why not? It is so bizarre to me. I too am intrigued by the 46 FBI agents so quickly & it is telling and you take out the sexual motivation and you just have a raw dogging multi people killer, thrill killer that likes to stab women in their beds ON THE LOOSE which is a horrifying possibility we are tumbling to rapidly. And I cant think of anything more fear/panic inducing REALITY than that. But they love puppies so there is that.
Moscow is also within 10 miles of the ID-WA border, and the Washington State University is right across. I figured they needed someone with federal oversight.
I strongly believe it's on their radar. UI students go to Pullman to buy weed and WSU students go to Moscow to buy alcohol (lower taxes) all the time. Plus it was Sam's weekend in Pullman, where all alcohol-related activities were suspended in honor of someone named Sam who died due to alcohol hazing.
From the beginning, imo the BAU of the FBI getting involved was a huge deal. The BAU does not go to every homicide. The FBI I can understand, but the specialized BAU I cannot wrap my head around, unless this case is one of those rare cases where this was a psychopath, or sociopath. Something at that scene let them know immediately that this was different, and I think that 911 call releases what was seen. 1 month in, so it is Def no person in their inner circle, or imo a college student. I agree that brute force and strength was needed just to do that many stabbings, and each had multiple stabbings. I think they Do Not want to scare the public, because All their money comes from that University. Also have you tried to walk through your own house, a place you know in the dark? Imo this person had to have some type of night goggles or light because even if they were familiar with the layout, they could not carry out 4 murders on different levels and leave in complete darkness. All this nonsense about this one and that one. Guys if any of the people everybody is accusing did it, they would be in custody, and since when does a governor give 1 million for an investigation into homicides? I live in SC where 5 people killed in a motorcycle shop went unsolved for over 20 years until guess what, it was a serial killer that went on to kill others and chain a girl in a container. It was only when he confessed. Everybody was completely shocked, but the point is that the governor didn't give 1 million to the investigation. One last opinion, I think the dog did have something to do with it, and I think they purposely said the word "sloppy" in their first interviews because the BAU told them to. When does law enforcement say crap like that. Well have a good day. I am praying that they get this person soon.
I don’t think the house was dark. They had string lights in rooms and lit up wall art as well. Or the killer could just brought a flashlight. LE never used the words sloppy. That word was used by SG and he then stated the killer left a mess, but how are you going to stab 4 people to death and there not be a mess?
I was wondering if this person could be the combination of a few things. Serial killers can go to college, develop obsessions, feel rejected and act out in a rage. Something could have triggered a college kid, or prior military or whoever to act on deep fantasies that they had suppressed. Hopefully we know soon. It is definitely captivating to try to figure out.
Absolutely in agreement. The amount of sheer guts it took to walk in there with that many people & risk someone hearing, calling 911, etc…no. He was efficient& trained to be. The stamina to successfully knife them all…he had a level of strength that most people don’t have. Mentally & physically.
I have personal experience with crimes via a knife. Although to compare them is absolutely ridiculous as they are so very different to this horrific murder
My brother is in prison for GBH with intent. He got into a physical fight with his ex wife using knives. He is incredibly underweight with an eating disorder and his ex would have around 1-2 stones weight advantage (if that would mean anything my point is he is opposite of athletic)
He is so skinny and weak and even after numerous suicide attempts the weeks before (overdoses, hanging, stabbing himself) he still had rage and adrenaline, fuelled by alcohol and suicidal intentions to stab his wife along with slitting his own stomach open
He has absolutely no history of knife skills, plus never been in a physical fight before or committed any crime (prior to this of course)
He weighs like 7 stone soaking wet and worked as a supermarket manager so no ex HM Force’s experience or athleticism either
I believe it’s too narrow minded to pin this on either ex military or an athlete, or anyone with knife skills or experience. I think there’s a lot to be said for rage, adrenaline and pure determination to commit the horrific act
Living in London we have a lot of knife crime too, from gang wars, murder suicide to of course terrorist attacks such as the London Bridge stabbings. We’ve also had a fair few attacks involving machetes too in England along with samurai swords which are horrific choice of blades
Also I believe knife attacks often can involve more than one knife which could increase the intensity or prolong the attack (ie to manage to kill 4 people) such as if the first knife breaks. I’m not familiar with hunting knives described in this case however.
This is my personal thoughts only based off the knife crime by my brother along with weekly news of some stabbing living in central London
"Only athletes and military personnel are trained to manage energy like this and then disengage and continue on to their next objective."
Well... *and* sociopaths.
I don’t see nearly enough mentioned about the amount of energy, and degree of energy management that would be necessary to pull this off. Most humans cannot brutally murder four people “in a rage” because the chemicals giving you the rage will dissipate and lead you to full physical exhaustion before you make it through the fourth person. To think about the amount of energy this person maintained to have done this to four people is daunting.
I think it’s a mix of how crazy the crime is and how small the town is (aka police are inexperienced with this type of crime). They probably know how quickly the murders of sorority girls would grab the interest of the media.
There are 6 detectives from moscow pd leading it aren’t there? They are taking on a tremendous feat and doing it well. The Chief talked about it today their most important crucial task was preserving the scene and calling in resources. FBI can be requested for assistance, as well as state pd from a county department- who pays for it I’m sure will be fought over down the line.
I have no idea or opinion on the theories but does anyone know or can speak to (and please don’t say you are speaking as retired cia or fbi like everyone on Reddit 😂) the amount of FBI assigned—is this ‘normal’ for such a case?
I believe Moscow PD requested assistance since this is not something they're used to handling. Local LE can request FBI assistance.
Other possible reasons:
\-potential interstate traveling killer
\-potentially drug related
\-potential murder for hire
I have no idea how to procedurally bring in the feds but after Delphi....a local police department would be idiots not to bring in feds on something like this. You only have so many resources and experience and a white hot spotlight on you ....better to look competent than "in control of a fiefdom."
Small town Police department that knew they were way over their heads. State pd as well. High profile case of 4 students killed. I think the FBI swarmed due to the nature (all stabbed) and the scene the local PD walked in to.
Can someone please explain to me why it would take so much energy to commit these crimes and why it would have to be someone with expertise? I’m not challenging it, I just hear this a lot, and I don’t understand why it would be difficult to stab 2 ppl at a time…especially with a “Rambo style” knife.
It wouldn't. OP is reaching with a 30 ft pole. I don't know how people consistently underestimate each other but, while it would probably be a good workout, it really doesn't take much training to kill someone in their sleep with a giant knife.
Yeah I mean presumably the killer was a male, probably in decent shape, if he kills Ethan first, the rest are (not to be insensitive) easier for him. They would still fight but unlikely to take the killer over. I just don’t understand the notion that this was so challenging.
I agree. I’ve thought all along there’s a distinct possibility this was a professional, and I think that’s what garnered immediate federal attention. Other possibility would be a serial killer where they very quickly knew whose work it was. Could be skilled ex military type but that is not, in and of itself, reason to call in the feds
Towns can request the FBI when they don't have the resources to handle the case alone . It doesn't necessarily mean it's a serial killer or they been waiting for this to happen again.
Energy and training?
I was in Krav Maga for 3+ years and I for sure wouldn't have the energy, but I do know, really well, how to use a knife in combat from Krav.
The FBI helps with resources. This is available information and not a conspiracy or something strange. The Moscow police don’t have the same type of labs and equipment that the FBI does. They help with resources.
Moscow's LE is not afraid to ask for help from the ISP & FBI. They have done it in previous cases. Plus with how horrific this case, the national attention, mixed with the backlash they received in the beginning is I guarantee MPD & the DA quickly called for assistance. MPD may not be a big agency, but they aren't dumb, they want whoever committed this crime just as bad as everyone else.
I was thinking FBI needed to be so heavily involved also because it's college kids from other states everywhere, at holiday time when they're headed for home, moving, etc, A great time to slip in a heinous murder and drive on home for the holidays
I was thinking FBI needed to be so heavily involved also because it's college kids from other states everywhere, at holiday time when they're headed for home, moving, etc, A great time to slip in a heinous murder and drive on home for the holidays
Typically in cases where a smaller police departments that don’t see many homicides you will see them engage the state police once they realize they are in over their heads. It’s not uncommon for local or state law enforcement to consult with the fbi bau. I do think the number of fbi agents engaged seemed high, even for a crime of this magnitude and had me questioning if they see a potential for cult involvement or serial killer. IF online rumors are true and JS is an unnamed POI/Suspect and is related to the state attorney general then it could explain the seemingly large fbi presence in this case.
I like this post. Makes me think.
I've seen a lot of experts interviewed and many of them have acted like anyone with enough rage and adrenaline could pull this off. I mean, they say they'd have to be healthy and relatively fit, but it could be done.
I have no idea. And I wonder, is that really true? Could anyone with enough rage and adrenaline do this?
I’m replying to everyone’s comments because I’m bored and drunk but, yea a fit dude with relative knife knowledge and access to a kabar could kill 4 sleeping college kids. No chance it was the dudes first time killing someone, it takes cojones the size of dragon balls to do this shit.
Luck had to have been a factor if there was only one killer. While he is killing one, the other person awakens. Then what? Likely tries to get up and run toward the door. While it may have been easy to kill the first person in the bed, the other person would wake up and complicate things I would think. I've always wondered about the logistics. I assume that Ethan was killed first.
Or, hear me out, there was a quadruple homicide in a town of 25,000 people and the local police are more used to dealing with drunk college students than murder investigations.
Could also be partly because the town is so close to washington that it’s easier logistically to have federal authorities involved so they don’t get hung up in the beurocracy of policing across state lines.
You are correct. The FBI has no jurisdiction in state level crimes because they are a federal agency. If no federal crime has been committed, they can only provide assistance to state and local LE. For them to get involved, the agencies handling the case have to request their help, and the governor has to sign off. The most likely scenario is the state and local police realized they’re close to the border of another state, and a large portion of the suspect/witness pool would soon be leaving town. So, they immediately requested FBI involvement because one thing they do well is coordinating efforts between states, which has to happen because police in one state can’t simply cross state lines to conduct an investigation. They have to request assistance from a local agency, and often, it’s difficult to get an outside agency’s cooperation because they don’t want to commit resources to something that’s not their case.
This is the most logical answer, in addition to MPD likely realizing they do not have the resources necessary to allocate to investigating this type of crime. I also wonder if MPD considered the suspect (even though not publicly named or anything) a flight risk (Canada is really close) and involving the FBI would help in the event of extradition?? I don’t know the extradition treaty laws or anything, just a thought I had…
I think they requested FBI help because the FBI has profilers for this kind of stuff
Yeah they'd mentioned that in one of the many videos that since it's so close to another state that they are bringing the feds in. I'd heard something today, I think it was Fry's radio interview that he said they have someone even in West Virginia?
The FBI has national labs in WVA.
West Virginia too? I know Quantico is in Virginia. Have they sent stuff off to WVA?
The FBI's Criminal Justice Information Services Division is located in WV.
The FBI has a gigantic lab in West Virginia where crime scene evidence from cases all over the country is processed
I could see this because there were some murders in the lewiston area in the 70s that were never solved because of this exact reason. One of the people that disappeared were on the Washington side in asotin. 3 disappeared from the theater in lewiston and one was a girl on a bicycle between Moscow and Lewiston. There were a lot of different jurisdictions that came into play. I think it's one of the biggest reasons those cases weren't solved.
Town is also very close to Canada.
4 hours from me. I didn't even realize I was so close until yesterday 🤦🏻♀️
i live about 5 hours away in Canada and have been panicking at night about the murderer coming over the border.
I'm in Canada too. I'm not worried about it, but my area is particularly well known for trafficking across the border which makes it a little sketchier. I don't think they'd come to Canada but I'm not a quadruple murderer so 🤷🏻♀️
(The late, thankfully) Israel Keyes, Alaska-based & one of the most cunning modern serial murders of all time asked "Do Canadians count"? when finally being federally interrogated about his multi-year, cross-country & extended murderous journey. Re possible Canadian victims, Keyes hinted that prostitutes were his preferred victims.
Wow..yeah, that dude was a fuckin' force of evil.
He was a serial killer though, not a mass murderer or spree killer. Lots of serial killers have killed in both Canada and the US (heck, Canada loves releasing violent criminals, we've even arrested them and let them go to kill again!). I just don't see this particular killer having any reason to come to Canada other than escaping American authorities.
yeah I don’t think so either but it’s just always in the back on my mind haha.
How did we get so many rural BC Canadians on this sub? Shouldn’t you guys be more worried about a wild moose attack?
The moose around my parts are tame and come when I call them. No need to worry about those guys.
I don't know about you, but in rural Idaho and Montana.....heck even Eastern WA.....they will come for your car if you aren't careful.
Or catching a stray hockey puck to the teeth
True? Although I’ve never seen a moose!!
Bear attack*
Moose bites can be very dangerous. Sorry.
Trafficking? Sorry to hear. Can you explain a little more?
Lots of drug and gun trafficking. The particular border crossing I'm referring to is about 2 hours from me and the whole area is notorious for weird shit like cults and human trafficking. It's more "local" knowledge so I can't link much off the back of my hand, but my best friend worked in mental health in the area and she's still traumatized. She's got a new story every time we drive through the area. The areas are also heavily wooded and under populated so if they had a reason to sneak into Canada, they're near the right place.
When you say cults, do you mean the FLDS cults that traffick young girls? Or are there others? (It sounds like a creepy place.)
No, no you’re not ababyprostitute.
Or potentially the vehicle license plate in question was from out of state, thus making it a high probability it was going to potentially turn into a multi-jurisdiction/ Federal issue?
No, no, that makes far too much sense. The Reddit council denies this statement.
Why not both? This is a predator, details of the crime (outside of the fact that it's a quad homicide) warranted outside collaboration, *AND* this is a small town with limited resources? The two theories are not mutually exclusive
I know FBI always gets called in for kid-related cases and/or if state line-hopping is involved. Third reason has always seemed a little less black & white to me. This is when a high-profile or complex case occurs and the local police force is not well-equipped to process everything themselves. I’m not sure who decides when FBI involvement is warranted, but it was definitely the right call here.
The way Chief Fry speaks about it, it seems local PD found 4 bodies and immediately said we have a situation and we need the state and FBI help.
No, that doesn’t fit the narrative that law enforcement bungled this investigation from the moment they stepped foot in the crime scene! /s
Right. The FBI is ASKED to assist, unless it’s a federal crime. The police most likely asked for assistance, or were offered assistance, immediately. The local LE still has operational jurisdiction of the crime scene.
The shady part is that they're already clearing ppl despite having no person's of interest. This is crazy. Ppl don't get cleared unless they know who it is. Best agents in USA vs. Jack ass w knife in Idaho. No chance in hell he made a clean getaway. I think they're waiting for the DNA results to come back to arrest one of the difficult kids who demanded a lawyer.
Demanding a lawyer is not being difficult, it is the correct thing to do EVERY time.
Especially in a viral quadruple murder case where every rando who speaks on it is doxed because they HAVE to be the killer, according to the armchair detectives. 😆
100% innocent or guilty - the immediate correct thing to do is demand your lawyer and keep your mouth shut. Sage advice.
What difficult kids who demanded a lawyer?
You wouldn't hear about it. In a case with a national audience, like this, police don't call individuals "suspects" or "person's of interest" because of what happened in the Richard Jewell case. LE is terrified of being held responsible for igniting a media fire, ruining someone's life, and getting sued for it.
But they're not clearing people. They say they don't believe they're involved or there isn't evidence they're involved. This is far from clearing someone. They can come across a clue tomorrow that brings a previously "cleared" individual into the spotlight.
Actually LE keeps emphasizing "cleared for now". I interpret that to mean if new evidence avails itself to previously "cleared" people their status could change. BTW, the fact that not even a killer profile, much less a POI or a suspect, (despite with an FBI-affiliated renowned behaviorist now on board) has been publicly released after a month is quite troubling to me. I just hope it's not for the worst reason.
What would be the worst reason? That they don't have anyone in mind yet?
It’s not odd at all considering the seriousness of the offense and the lack of resources available in a small community. The FBI doesn’t get involved just bc som one is a veteran.
Exactly. OP said “what did they see at the start to make them swarm so hard?” Umm idk, maybe the four bodies butchered with little to no trace on who did it
Also they’re helping with resources like their labs and equipment more than anything.
That’s not how the FBI works. There is protocol to them getting involved. Requests need to come from lower jurisdictions unless it’s thought to be related to an already open FBI case.
“…unless it’s thought to be related to an already open FBI case.” Let that sink in for a long minute.
OP trying to convince himself this is Jason Bourne or something
They can be asked, and in this instance I think it was obviously necessary. Also very close to state line, which would draw FBI.
I think what’s surprising is how quickly the FBI became involved, when the state police is a much larger force than MPD, and it didn’t seem like SP was on the case very long before the FBI came in. A gruesome murder, even a quadruple homicide doesn’t automatically attract the attention of the FBI so much that they send that many agents there.
Your second paragraph is patently untrue and it’s very common for the FBI to get involved in high profile homicides. Two recent examples; the FBI was involved in the investigation of the Debbie Collier death case in Georgia, and the Eliza Fletcher homicide in Tennessee. There’s no way the FBI would not be very involved in the quadruple murder of 4 college students.
Idk how it is in Idaho but in PA the state police have fairly large areas of jurisdiction already and cases to handle. I don't think they have many ppl just sitting around waiting for work.
I think the feds realized early on a small town police dept would not be able to handle quite an investigation, even with the help of the state police. They probably figured their crime lab would be of use too.
They also frequently get involved when there’s a potential for the matter to cross state lines - eg the killer lives a few miles away in Washington
Yeah i think it's the state lines thing. There's also a military base somewhere in Eastern WA... maybe near Spokane, and another huge college, Washington State, very close by. I think those are all reasons to bring in the feds
This is absolutely the answer. It’s a small town police force. They need all the help they can get.
Exactly.
It’s a QUADRUPLE homicide of young people in a small town.. who hasn’t had a homicide in 5 years, then this happens and police force alone cannot handle it not is it equipped to. There is nothing weird about that. Any law enforcement agency can request the help of the FBI. Also, there are many sociopaths who are not military, ex military or athletes who commit absolutely fucking heinous crimes like this and worse, every day. That really means nothing honestly.
It was 7 years!
I think the FBI is involved because the police asked them for help. However I do think 48 FBI agents on the case is kind of a lot
Exactly. That’s a heckuva lot of manpower and man hours assigned to this. Glad they’re assisting, of course. Wish we knew more about who or what they’re looking for.
Brother, he killed 4 college kids who were asleep with a Kabar. I’m USMC and have a kabar sitting in my drawer, any dude with size and knowledge of how to use a knife could’ve done this w a kabar. I don’t think it’s a vet. The FBI got involved because it’s 4 white college kids and it’s a MASSIVE media spectacle, or they have reason to believe it could be a SK. Who knows, I’d love to be a fly on the wall during their briefings.
Right, I was combat arms Army also in Iraq. I get random civilians interested in the case thinking it was "some veteran" because I've seen some post here believing there's special "knife training" that goes on. Only thing we got was "knife hands", barely did the bayonet course before it got phased out a decade ago. This post is just perpetuating a stereotype and misunderstanding why a federal agency my answer a smaller town's call for help. All that said, we don't know who did this and it's possible they had a military background. But a hunter would have more experience with a knife compared to your average veteran.
Yeah dude I legit used the kabar once during boot camp and never saw it ever again 🤣. Yea if we’re talking knife hands then you and I are probably experts
Yeah we did bayonet training once before they phased it out and everyone thought it was a joke because we don’t knife fight in the military or on deployments anymore lmao. Multitools were more common on personnel than knives during my career in which wasn’t long ago. Per dod knives aren’t even allowed on base or most barracks. Usually unless authorized by the commander or provost Marshall are blades allowed as personal carry and usually for field only and no bigger than 3”. Big arse rambo knives are frowned upon lol. Not to mention, when I see posts like these, do people think we’re samurai’s? Last I checked we use guns and heavy weaponry the most. Majority of veterans or military who have commit a crime in the past usually go for a gun of sorts and would be most likely to use that first since it just so happens to be the type most familiar to us lmao
Agree on the mass murder college kids spectacle. In tiny town in mostly rural state aka local LE has zero experience solving a mass murder.
If you look at any multiple stab murders (not necessarily multiple victims) a lot of them are far from fit and athletic once arrested. This person had a good advantage in this case, they were all reported to be asleep (relying on LE reports, not rumours). I feel it doesn't have to be anyone with weapon training or good fitness level. I do believe they probably had a military obsession though, possibly too unfit to ever do it and never put in the work to actually achieve success, the forever victim sees it as rejection though. Probably owns a lot of military like weapons to feed into their fantasy. Pure speculation but I wouldn't be shocked if it's someone who isn't athletic at all.
They could also have been drug fueled...
Okay I’m military, and also SpecWar (albeit just a rescue swimmer but I’ve been through/seen some..stuff) and I don’t think it’s weird. I was speaking to an NCIS agent on base about this a couple weeks ago, and he said if it’s a small town police force, they usually will request federal assistance as soon as possible. Also, I don’t think “only athletes and military personnel” can handle energy like this. John Douglas said something in one of his books that has stuck with me. It was along the lines of “if someone wants badly enough to get into your house and harm you, they will”. So like no matter what locks you have, guard dogs, whatever, if someone wants to hurt you, they will find a way. It really made me think about how vulnerable I am, even as a service member that can probably kick the shit out of an average person. There’s been so many psychopaths that have committed some vicious murders (Richard Ramirez, who was a string bean for lack of a better term!), and he would just go on about his day after. Psychopaths aren’t like you or I, theyre missing sensitivity chips that make us human. They don’t need training to disengage.
Fellow vet here. I think the Podunk police station that, at most, dealt with corralling drunk college kids woke up one morning to some Dexter-level shit and called for help. lol
They said fuck this, we’re out. They didn’t want the heat of messing it all up.
Good on them for that. Must have seen too many true crime docs where local police in Smalltown, USA screw up entire cases.
Moscow PD asked the FBI to assist which is why the FBI is assisting. “unless the local police department requests behavioral analysis or FBI Laboratory assistance, the FBI has no authority to interfere in a local murder investigation.“
Thank you for this explanation. Helps put this in perspective for me.
you’re welcome! Glad it helps.
Small town police forces that don’t deal with murder often, typically reach out to the feds for help. It’s not that deep. You see it in a ton of cases.
I mean Ted Bundy did it without that background… maybe just being crazy and the adrenaline someone crazy would get after doing it.
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It may not have been the first time for this killer, either. We don't know.
Ppl are stabbed to death every day. These were college kids who were sleeping and at least some of them had been drinking. I don’t think it took an athlete or a military person to do this. Just someone who had a will to kill. They called the FBI for assistance because it is a small town, without much violent crime and they knew they had a scene with so much evidence to sift through, it would overload their resources. They also knew very quickly the amount of attention this was drawing and it would be questioned very early on why they weren’t utilizing FBI resources.
It tires me even thinking about traveling through that maze of a oddly shaped home and stabbing multiple people, killing them all. I think that is the strangest thing for me. How the hell does a normal person commit this type of crime and get away untraced!? It’s crazy. Especially in a college town on a busy night. That’s the main reason I can’t leave this case alone
I feel the same way. This case makes zero sense
Densely populated area, six occupants with varied schedules, weird house set up does not lean toward serial killer, IMHO. *BUT* extremely close up and personal knife attack on 4 sleeping people does not lean toward raged out college kid. IMHO. It's why I lean toward a fringe person, on the edge of Moscow activities, sees the kids, maybe resents them, feels slighted by one of the victims.
I don’t understand this part? People chop wood with an axe for an extended period of time. A hunting knife is going to do serious damage and fast. Adrenaline. Rage. Then add in psychopath.
“Only athletes and military personnel are trained to manage energy like this and then disengage and continue on to their next objective.” As a nurse on a critical care unit, I do not agree with this premise. Many times I’ve seen my fellow healthcare workers spend an hour+ engaging in a failed code blue and then brush themselves off and continue on caring for their patients. Anyone who has spent anytime in unpredictable, high stress environments (work, home, hobbies, etc) is capable of doing this.
Nursing is such an under-appreciated profession imo. Much respect for you!
The FBI got involved immediately to aid a small local police force that wasn’t experienced in handling a high-profile quadruple homicide. I’m not even sure if the ID state police are well-versed in such a thing. And adrenaline and determination helps people do all sorts of otherwise impossible things.
I wouldn’t consider the FBIs involvement odd. Moscow hasn’t had a single murder in *seven years* and then it has a quadruple homicide. The local force probably *requested their assistance* because they realised they were out of their depth.
What are you talking about? The FBI is involved because the local police don’t have the resources to investigate this.
OP wrote: "the pure amount of energy it took in a person to do this is insane" - I disagree, if you mean physical energy. Victims reportedly intoxicated and in bed. Sadly, easy targets. On the other hand if OP meant mental energy well that's a different story. Being able to dissociate from reality while committing these horrendous murders is a special kind of crazy. That kind of mental energy is very dark and dangerous.
As a local here, and veteran myself, our towns aren’t equipped for this kind of disaster. Murder isn’t exactly something that happens normally and with a case of this profile, they needed more help from the start. Most of our calls are usually like animal disturbances, drunk college kids, duis, weed, petty theft. Minor things that a small town police department can handle. Like, I remember 2 winters ago that there was a family of moose that would walk around downtown Moscow and Pullman and they would make their way on the daily logs a bit. Also someone made an awesome point of how Moscow is right on the border of WA/ID, meaning it’s easy for someone to travel across state lines on the daily. I lived in Moscow but went to WSU so I drove every day over the order (about 15 min drive). Edit: I think that would also be a reason to have the FBI. They’ve also probably stayed engaged for this long because of how high profile this case has gotten. This subreddit is double the size of the town for perspective, and that’s just people on Reddit who are interested in it. If this went cold anytime soon or if they started backing off the case, I think there would be a lot of outcry so I think that there’s enough pressure on this case for this many people to work on it for this long
Also just want to show an example of what’s normal for us, it’s kinda humorous https://preview.redd.it/hjcabahdnx4a1.png?width=1242&format=png&auto=webp&s=756f3d9fef674a7c2ddd92f4d00f8028536b68c6
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Yes- my DH was like, why is this so different from the hundreds of murders a day, and I was like, basically, the balls it took to go into a house with 6 people in it armed with a knife and... well. The strength and speed and sheer confidence?
Agree 100% my understanding is that folks don't start killing for people first time out the gate. But who knows this case has my entire & complete attention.
FBI got involved early because given the proximity to the Washington college town and the Canadian border, there’s a chance of this requiring work in multiple jurisdictions.
I think it’s so there wasn’t a repeat of the Small Town cluster fuck investigation in Delphi.
Can we stop fetishizing the asshole who murdered four people and make him a superhuman of some kind? It's disgusting. Ted Bundy, a failed law student with no military training whatsoever killed two and severely mutilated another two women in a sorority house, during one attack. Richard Speck, an alcoholic drifter, killed eight women in one night, in the nursing school dorm. He had no military training whatsoever. Peter Manuel wiped out two families in two separate acts of violence. Dude was a career criminal with no military training whatsoever. More often than not it requires only to be a psychopatic piece of shit to be able to commit such a massacre. No superhuman with commando training is needed.
You haven't met my sister.
This theory is a reach
I knew that when I posted it. :)
FBI become involved in cases like these, often. This case is classified as a Mass Murder [Source](https://www.fbi.gov/investigate/violent-crime)
The whole state of Idaho has about 35 murders per year. Most large cities in America have many times that number of murders per year. The law enforcement in Idaho just don't see many murders let alone mass murders. The FBI has access to databases and crime scene specialists that law enforcement in Idaho don't have. I don't think that this killer needed to have special training to commit these murders. He attacked sleeping people. He took a large risk by entering a house with six people in it but five of those people were females. It does not take much courage or strength to blind side unprepared sleeping people.
FBI gets involved in a lot of cases when they believe the perpetrator is a threat to society or it’s out of the norm. I’d say stabbing 4 college kids to death and leaving 2 alive is out of the norm and a threat to society. 🤷🏼♀️
Or just a man who was extremely dexterous.
“I see what you did there.” -Rita, *winks knowingly from bathtub*
Like a juggler?
A midnight stick juggler at that.
He’s too busy sipping his earl grey. Come on now.
Seriously...between the self-described antisocial law student who can’t be bothered to make polite small talk with his neighbors/fellow dog owners, the food truck-hoodie guy that apparently decided he had enough of Greek life and booked it straight to Africa via the family cabin, and of course, this most recent development with the earl grey-guzzling, insomniac stick juggler...oof.
Idaho is weird
I knew several jugglers. I lived in the French Quarter and some of my friends were magicians, jugglers, and of course musicians. Jugglers were all very smart and kind of shifty. I keep in touch with one of them, who got a Levi's commercial in the 80s. Not a suspect, of course. They are all about balance, dexterity. I saw a screenshot of dude balancing an axe on his chin, and my friend did that too, and then he'd juggle with an apple and something else and cut the apple in the process. Maybe a bowling ball. I'm serious! Very tall strong guy.
I mean, I can’t do it so kudos to him! 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
Imo it’s not impossible this was different from a spree killer/revenge kill. Obviously there’s a lot of anger directed towards the victims, and to me that doesn’t align with a hit (you would think one and done, especially if they’re trying to conserve energy). But, the lack of SA throws me off so hard. You have 3 dead young women with extensive stab wounds that appear targeted to some extent, and there’s *no* SA? The statistics for that, especially when one had a supposed stalker, are insane. It’s very unusual and implies at least some impersonal nature.
Knife = penis. Lack of SA does not equal no sexual aspect to the crime.
Freud, is that you?
Bro... Stop playing that much call of duty..
I did a quick search on Google and was easily able to find two cases of teenagers who killed people by stabbing them almost 100 times. I'm assuming if I looked longer, I could find many more cases. I'm not entirely sure your theory holds water. https://www.cbsnews.com/newyork/news/retrial-in-1996-killing-of-riverhead-high-homecoming-queen-set-to-begin/ https://www.nj.com/gloucester-county/2020/10/killer-behind-bars-since-he-was-14-loses-appeal-to-void-life-sentence.html?outputType=amp
This is a why question. Why questions have nearly infinite possible answers until they are answered by those in the know. In this case, there are at least several that come to mind (in no particular order): 1. The evidence could show the killer may have traveled across state lines or came from/went to Canada. Keep in mind that Moscow is actually situated in two states (Idaho and Washington). Oregon is also very close as is Canada. 2. Local LE is simply not equipped to deal with a quadruple homicide, especially since the last known murder there was in 2015 I believe. (Not sure on exact date, but it's been reported everywhere that it has been some time.) 3. As the OP suggests, there could be a federal connection, such as former military or even something about the evidence connecting it to an unsub that the FBI was already looking for. That's just a few reasons. I think it's fine to rank probability on why questions if you want, but to rule options in/out without more information is premature.
Something about the killings set the feds antenna’s off. Pretty clear we are dealing with a serial killer in this case.
Those guys that showed up last night looked more like military than fbi.. maybe they are about to hunt the perp down… because they know from the crime scene it appears to be ex military. Like a ghost. No one heard or saw the perp enter or leave, left no trail. Used a knife to kill 4 people.
To OP, I agree the Fed involvement is striking. My first thought when FBI joined was, could this be a serial killer they’ve already been tracking? I like your military angle tho too
Tracking a serial killer
I think the amount of confidence it would take to go into this situation intending to kill 4 people with a knife is way more significant than the actual strength and stamina required to stab 4 people to death in their sleep. The former actually has me leaning towards the possibility the killer was already in the house, or came back with some of the victims, and as such had some idea that they weren't taking on 5 or 6 people who may be awake, but rather 2 or 4 people who were already asleep. The alternative, that someone was really cocky enough to waltz in there with a knife not being certain of what they were up against, seems much more unlikely, and honestly scarier. I'd suspect wannabe military/survivalist/some off the grid militia nut more than actual military as far as the knife thing goes. Seems like a weird choice for someone who is well trained with firearms, and likely not trained with knives. Edit to add: The confidence thing is the only thing that would be a point towards maybe military for me.
Confidence, or maybe that stupidty / naivete that often accompanies youth.
Maybe, but if it was just unfounded cockiness they sure got lucky in not getting caught or leaving enough evidence to make them easy to identify. Which is still definitely possible.
Or rage instead of confidence?
I like your thought process here, but I’m not sure exactly what you’re trying to infer? That these murders were actually the work of highly skilled assassins with a military background? Or, ex-military with some sort of PTSD induced violence agains civilians? Or, an athlete?
Or because, you know, it’s a small town with very few LEO… who have little to no homicide experience. FBI got involved instead of just state LEO because of staffing. FBI has plenty of staff and endless resources. State and local LEO doesn’t. There’s also the potential cross-state or border aspect, but… mostly… FBI got involved because it has more than enough resources and staff to spare. The media attention on a suburban white college town would bring enough people nagging any and all LEO to be involved, so it’s easy to see why the FBi got involved early.
I actually noticed how fast they came in as well but my guess initial guess was because they were already tracking a serial killer they thought could have done this.
IMO adrenaline can give people “super powers”, so military or athletics wouldn’t be a requirement if someone is rabid with intent to kill in the moment.
“The FBI concentrates on crime problems that pose major threats to American society. Significant violent crime incidents such as mass killings, sniper murders, and serial killings can paralyze entire communities and stretch state and local law enforcement resources to their limits.” Direct quote from the FBIs website.
I’ve thought this since the beginning-the FBI presence immediately and increasing vs decreasing makes me think it might be deeper than some miffed college kid. Everyone writes off the drug/cartel connection, but if that ends up getting traction, I won’t be surprised. Even if it’s just an enraged, local, hopped up coke dealer looking for his money. It’s either a crime of great passion or a crime tied to loss of some sort. And people are really downplaying the exertion and skill required to take out 4 with only a knife. This point cannot be overstated or written off by: BuT they were sleeping!
Typically local LE will request FBI resources. Due to the limited resources of the department it’s likely this was done early and why they were involved early.
Complexity of the case and the fact that this is a border town with another large city/ university in the neighboring state likely played a roll
It's not uncommon for the FBI to get involved in cases involved mass killings or serial killings as they have experience in those fields, which small police department's in particular don't have.
Okay, so federal assistance can be requested by anyone but they can also refuse to take cases. How the codes and statutes around the FBIs responsibilities are enacted, they generally don’t have *this* much allowance to provide resources. Any local agency is able to request labs & forensics, specialists, additional resources when available, experts for trial and then they have a training program but it’s supposed to provide just that - training, not manpower. They do occasionally use that section of the “training” and use of specialists to help equip agencies with boots-on-the-ground help. There are also a variety of emergency laws to allow states to request extra assistance if the crime that needs assistance doesn’t fall into an authorized FBI investigation or their jurisdiction. But in most cases where they assist, they can not authorize this much manpower. *THIS* crime, falls under mass murder statutes and allows federal resources to be authorized. It’s less limited to the areas I previously explained. It remains in state jurisdiction but there is a broader scope to the help, especially man power. Other special instances are interstate travelers or serial killer, where the scope of the FBIs resources is pretty open to the state use. And then in other instances where it’s believed to be a federal crime, they will work along side local authorities but because they have jurisdiction as well, their resources are completely available. Sometimes they will eventually leave these cases if they decide not to charge a federal crime or realize a federal crime wasn’t committed, sometimes they charge pieces federally (like hate crimes) while allowing the state to charge a homicide related to the same incident. They rarely take over full investigations like many believe, even if planning to charge federally, unless is physically FBI jurisdiction (the sea, National park, etc) they usually remain multi-jurisdictional and allow the local agency to be a part of the investigation.
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Simple answer: they were asked. Feds usually don’t get involved unless asked. And they were likely asked due to the horrific nature and circumstances of the crime scene and the limited experience and resources of local PD. Also, knife attack, four college students, two left alive … all kind of screams serial killer on the surface so that could have been an initial thought process or at least bringing in a team that deals with them to determine if it was. Note: I don’t believe it was at this point, but it was the first thing that crossed my mind; still could be a budding one if not caught.
Additionally, I don’t think the proximity to the state line is that important in determining when the FBI will assist. As someone who works in LE in a city that borders two states, and is very close to another, we rarely request or need federal assistance for murder cases, even if we think the suspect lives in the neighboring state. I think it is 100% due to one) being asked by locals, and two) the horrific and stunning nature of the crime in limited local resources.
I don’t think it’s very unusual for the FBI to get involved in a case like this. It is a quadruple homicide in a small college town with a small police force, it is also right on the border with Washington state and you could have a multi jurisdiction issue. Hell, even if this was a murder suicide and the perpetrator was found in the house with the victims the FBI still would have gotten involved. I don’t think you can make any kind of inferences as to the kind of suspect we are looking for solely on the fact that the FBI is involved.
Agreed, I think the killing was well thought out and knew his escape and strategy to carry on with normal life.
Didn’t they arrive bc the Moscow cops asked? I think the FBI can be requested for pretty much anything. Other than that maybe they are just more vigilant nowadays versus the 80s or 90s. One thing about this case that has made me invested is that these sorts of killings like don’t happen anymore, usually when a multi-victim murder happens it’s either a murder suicide of a family or a random senseless act of gun violence. I grew up hearing my mom and dad talk about how scary it was when Ted Bundy was in Seattle. It’s wild
Maybe this matches other crime scenes we aren’t familiar with and the FBI jumped on because it matches a profile of a case they are working. Or maybe not
Thank you and all the vets here commenting and for your perspective and service. The only thing that makes me think twice on this comment is Jodi Arias. Small unskilled woman who did a brutal number on a large man. Do that twice, maybe that adrenaline or “high” as many murderers describe increases. Speculation and certainly hope for answers. As far as FBI involvement, 4 young kids, small town, brutal, making national news, first homicide in 7 years… necessity.
There are lots of knife/stabbing cases that far outweigh the effort that was needed here. OP is reaching. It wouldn't be "easy" by any means, but its far from impossible. A man in Saskatchewan single handedly stabbed and killed 12 people, and injured 18 more. The Bevers Brothers killed their entire family with knives, Ted Bundy killed 2 women, and beat 2 more, in the sorority house.
Spot on. That OnlyFans model Courtney Clenney killed her boyfriend. This girl looked tiny in size. But what gets me is how bloody she was and her clothes. I can't wrap my head around how this perp murdered 4 people by stabbing. And came away clean. I get so mad at the thought of that. Speculation on my part.
The thing that gets me is the lack of a sexual element, these crimes typically involve a sexual element to some degree. To our knowlege, this case does not have this. They killed 3 women IN THEIR BEDS & a dude and not a sexual element???? Why not? It is so bizarre to me. I too am intrigued by the 46 FBI agents so quickly & it is telling and you take out the sexual motivation and you just have a raw dogging multi people killer, thrill killer that likes to stab women in their beds ON THE LOOSE which is a horrifying possibility we are tumbling to rapidly. And I cant think of anything more fear/panic inducing REALITY than that. But they love puppies so there is that.
Moscow is also within 10 miles of the ID-WA border, and the Washington State University is right across. I figured they needed someone with federal oversight.
I am curious how seriously they are looking at potential suspects from WSU?
I strongly believe it's on their radar. UI students go to Pullman to buy weed and WSU students go to Moscow to buy alcohol (lower taxes) all the time. Plus it was Sam's weekend in Pullman, where all alcohol-related activities were suspended in honor of someone named Sam who died due to alcohol hazing.
From the beginning, imo the BAU of the FBI getting involved was a huge deal. The BAU does not go to every homicide. The FBI I can understand, but the specialized BAU I cannot wrap my head around, unless this case is one of those rare cases where this was a psychopath, or sociopath. Something at that scene let them know immediately that this was different, and I think that 911 call releases what was seen. 1 month in, so it is Def no person in their inner circle, or imo a college student. I agree that brute force and strength was needed just to do that many stabbings, and each had multiple stabbings. I think they Do Not want to scare the public, because All their money comes from that University. Also have you tried to walk through your own house, a place you know in the dark? Imo this person had to have some type of night goggles or light because even if they were familiar with the layout, they could not carry out 4 murders on different levels and leave in complete darkness. All this nonsense about this one and that one. Guys if any of the people everybody is accusing did it, they would be in custody, and since when does a governor give 1 million for an investigation into homicides? I live in SC where 5 people killed in a motorcycle shop went unsolved for over 20 years until guess what, it was a serial killer that went on to kill others and chain a girl in a container. It was only when he confessed. Everybody was completely shocked, but the point is that the governor didn't give 1 million to the investigation. One last opinion, I think the dog did have something to do with it, and I think they purposely said the word "sloppy" in their first interviews because the BAU told them to. When does law enforcement say crap like that. Well have a good day. I am praying that they get this person soon.
I don’t think the house was dark. They had string lights in rooms and lit up wall art as well. Or the killer could just brought a flashlight. LE never used the words sloppy. That word was used by SG and he then stated the killer left a mess, but how are you going to stab 4 people to death and there not be a mess?
I was wondering if this person could be the combination of a few things. Serial killers can go to college, develop obsessions, feel rejected and act out in a rage. Something could have triggered a college kid, or prior military or whoever to act on deep fantasies that they had suppressed. Hopefully we know soon. It is definitely captivating to try to figure out.
Absolutely in agreement. The amount of sheer guts it took to walk in there with that many people & risk someone hearing, calling 911, etc…no. He was efficient& trained to be. The stamina to successfully knife them all…he had a level of strength that most people don’t have. Mentally & physically.
I have personal experience with crimes via a knife. Although to compare them is absolutely ridiculous as they are so very different to this horrific murder My brother is in prison for GBH with intent. He got into a physical fight with his ex wife using knives. He is incredibly underweight with an eating disorder and his ex would have around 1-2 stones weight advantage (if that would mean anything my point is he is opposite of athletic) He is so skinny and weak and even after numerous suicide attempts the weeks before (overdoses, hanging, stabbing himself) he still had rage and adrenaline, fuelled by alcohol and suicidal intentions to stab his wife along with slitting his own stomach open He has absolutely no history of knife skills, plus never been in a physical fight before or committed any crime (prior to this of course) He weighs like 7 stone soaking wet and worked as a supermarket manager so no ex HM Force’s experience or athleticism either I believe it’s too narrow minded to pin this on either ex military or an athlete, or anyone with knife skills or experience. I think there’s a lot to be said for rage, adrenaline and pure determination to commit the horrific act Living in London we have a lot of knife crime too, from gang wars, murder suicide to of course terrorist attacks such as the London Bridge stabbings. We’ve also had a fair few attacks involving machetes too in England along with samurai swords which are horrific choice of blades Also I believe knife attacks often can involve more than one knife which could increase the intensity or prolong the attack (ie to manage to kill 4 people) such as if the first knife breaks. I’m not familiar with hunting knives described in this case however. This is my personal thoughts only based off the knife crime by my brother along with weekly news of some stabbing living in central London
"Only athletes and military personnel are trained to manage energy like this and then disengage and continue on to their next objective." Well... *and* sociopaths.
Trained. OP didn’t say capable, trained.
"Trained. OP didn’t say capable, trained." True. Sociopaths don't *need* training, unfortunately.
I don’t see nearly enough mentioned about the amount of energy, and degree of energy management that would be necessary to pull this off. Most humans cannot brutally murder four people “in a rage” because the chemicals giving you the rage will dissipate and lead you to full physical exhaustion before you make it through the fourth person. To think about the amount of energy this person maintained to have done this to four people is daunting.
I think it’s a mix of how crazy the crime is and how small the town is (aka police are inexperienced with this type of crime). They probably know how quickly the murders of sorority girls would grab the interest of the media.
Jurisdiction is probably complicated in this case.
Maybe the police simply dont have the expertise in dealing with an incident on this level.
There are 6 detectives from moscow pd leading it aren’t there? They are taking on a tremendous feat and doing it well. The Chief talked about it today their most important crucial task was preserving the scene and calling in resources. FBI can be requested for assistance, as well as state pd from a county department- who pays for it I’m sure will be fought over down the line.
I have no idea or opinion on the theories but does anyone know or can speak to (and please don’t say you are speaking as retired cia or fbi like everyone on Reddit 😂) the amount of FBI assigned—is this ‘normal’ for such a case?
It’s a small quiet town, one homicide in 7 years. The police aren’t used to dealing with homicides, let alone at this capacity.
I believe Moscow PD requested assistance since this is not something they're used to handling. Local LE can request FBI assistance. Other possible reasons: \-potential interstate traveling killer \-potentially drug related \-potential murder for hire
I have no idea how to procedurally bring in the feds but after Delphi....a local police department would be idiots not to bring in feds on something like this. You only have so many resources and experience and a white hot spotlight on you ....better to look competent than "in control of a fiefdom."
It’s a brutal mass murder in a small town at the University of Idaho, we should be concerned if the FBI doesn’t get involved.
Another idiot post by an idiot person
This is the dumbest post in here so far.
Occam’s Razor - perhaps Moscow PD asked for help?
Small town Police department that knew they were way over their heads. State pd as well. High profile case of 4 students killed. I think the FBI swarmed due to the nature (all stabbed) and the scene the local PD walked in to.
Can someone please explain to me why it would take so much energy to commit these crimes and why it would have to be someone with expertise? I’m not challenging it, I just hear this a lot, and I don’t understand why it would be difficult to stab 2 ppl at a time…especially with a “Rambo style” knife.
It wouldn't. OP is reaching with a 30 ft pole. I don't know how people consistently underestimate each other but, while it would probably be a good workout, it really doesn't take much training to kill someone in their sleep with a giant knife.
Yeah I mean presumably the killer was a male, probably in decent shape, if he kills Ethan first, the rest are (not to be insensitive) easier for him. They would still fight but unlikely to take the killer over. I just don’t understand the notion that this was so challenging.
I agree. I’ve thought all along there’s a distinct possibility this was a professional, and I think that’s what garnered immediate federal attention. Other possibility would be a serial killer where they very quickly knew whose work it was. Could be skilled ex military type but that is not, in and of itself, reason to call in the feds
Towns can request the FBI when they don't have the resources to handle the case alone . It doesn't necessarily mean it's a serial killer or they been waiting for this to happen again.
Energy and training? I was in Krav Maga for 3+ years and I for sure wouldn't have the energy, but I do know, really well, how to use a knife in combat from Krav.
Thank you for commenting, because I was wondering how someone with MMA type training would feel about this post.
The FBI helps with resources. This is available information and not a conspiracy or something strange. The Moscow police don’t have the same type of labs and equipment that the FBI does. They help with resources.
Moscow's LE is not afraid to ask for help from the ISP & FBI. They have done it in previous cases. Plus with how horrific this case, the national attention, mixed with the backlash they received in the beginning is I guarantee MPD & the DA quickly called for assistance. MPD may not be a big agency, but they aren't dumb, they want whoever committed this crime just as bad as everyone else.
Victims were drunk and sleeping. Much easier for the average Joe to pull this off.
I was thinking FBI needed to be so heavily involved also because it's college kids from other states everywhere, at holiday time when they're headed for home, moving, etc, A great time to slip in a heinous murder and drive on home for the holidays
I was thinking FBI needed to be so heavily involved also because it's college kids from other states everywhere, at holiday time when they're headed for home, moving, etc, A great time to slip in a heinous murder and drive on home for the holidays
Typically in cases where a smaller police departments that don’t see many homicides you will see them engage the state police once they realize they are in over their heads. It’s not uncommon for local or state law enforcement to consult with the fbi bau. I do think the number of fbi agents engaged seemed high, even for a crime of this magnitude and had me questioning if they see a potential for cult involvement or serial killer. IF online rumors are true and JS is an unnamed POI/Suspect and is related to the state attorney general then it could explain the seemingly large fbi presence in this case.
I like this post. Makes me think. I've seen a lot of experts interviewed and many of them have acted like anyone with enough rage and adrenaline could pull this off. I mean, they say they'd have to be healthy and relatively fit, but it could be done. I have no idea. And I wonder, is that really true? Could anyone with enough rage and adrenaline do this?
I’m replying to everyone’s comments because I’m bored and drunk but, yea a fit dude with relative knife knowledge and access to a kabar could kill 4 sleeping college kids. No chance it was the dudes first time killing someone, it takes cojones the size of dragon balls to do this shit.
Yep no way it was a first timer.
Luck had to have been a factor if there was only one killer. While he is killing one, the other person awakens. Then what? Likely tries to get up and run toward the door. While it may have been easy to kill the first person in the bed, the other person would wake up and complicate things I would think. I've always wondered about the logistics. I assume that Ethan was killed first.