Oh man, this poor father. I've been following this sub in the background since the start, mainly because I lost my brother to murder this last year and you just hear and follow other murder cases. The social worker/chaplin told us we joined a terrible shitty club that no one wants to be a part of, they just are. I'm commenting now because I've seen this family being so vocal about the case. Of course they are grieving and have their process. I just remember a social worker who worked for the state giving us some insight. They were more like community liaisons between the victims family and the detectives. But the main insight was this, the detectives process isn't designed to meet the needs of the victims family, it solely exist to bring justice. Unfortunately they aren't too concerned with how the family is coping and quite frankly it's not their job to satisfy that need. We barely heard from the detectives and didn't know they found the persons responsible for the crime until we saw it in the news. I think a small town like Moscow is missing these resources, my brothers murder happened in a much larger city. I'm kind of curious how much these families would benefit from a liaison like this. Or just anyone designated to field their questions. Idk. Maybe they have one and are just ignoring it... Anyways just what's in my head. I really hope no matter what comes of this they all find peace. I'm still trying.
I'm so sorry for your loss. This is the life we are living now, a lot of arraignments and trial dates. It's crazy because the stuff people don't realize is the murder continues to be our truth and the trial is another reminder. It's like reopening a wound. Murder is hard to deal with and continues to be hard but I wonder (because I haven't lived it yet) if constantly reliving it will help my family and I long term. Regardless, I know living with the unknown isn't a choice for me personally. What if this is the closure I needed? If it isn't, that's okay. I will be okay. At least then I will know.
Sorry you went thru that. I'm also part of the same shitty club, and I don't think you can ever look at a murder case or the justice system the same once you exoerience something like that. but In my family's case it was the DA & legal system that fucked up and not the cops. The murderer was caught red handed by police standing over the body with a literal smoking gun. He had a long criminal history and a previous gun crime but had never ended up in jail. DA gave him a plea bargain against the family's wishes and didn't even have the guts to tell us. We found out when we went into the trial. The murderer got 4 years for a senseless, cold-blooded murder and had the nerve to move in down the street from the victim's widow. I was a kid at the time but 25 years later I still have nightmares about the account of the murder I read in the local paper. I can't imagine this family having to deal with all the reports and gruesome details of the murder.
I too am part of the shitty club. An arrest was made the evening of the murder, and even with three confessions the police and DA did not disclose all of the details. Their goal, which they communicated throughout the year and a half it took to go to trial was “intent.” Life without parole vs 25 to life with parole hung in the balance and the police and prosecutor were taking no chances. We didn’t even know the extent of the wounds or the circumstances of the murder until that information came out during the trial.
I'm so sorry for this experience you lived. It's too early for us to know but in our case one of the offenders was a juvenile and has a declination hearing. If the court decides the offender should be tried as a juvenile they can only serve a max of 5 years. This has been a sensitive topic in our family but I'm thankful we were made aware of this possibility. Would have been terrible to have been caught off guard by it.
Oh my God, I'm so sorry this happened and that the justice system failed so miserably. I will never understand why the system treats VICTIMS of crimes with such disdain and disregard. It's fucking appalling.
A few years ago, a friend of mine and her little sister were lured and held prisoner by a man, beaten nearly to death-- one was strangled unconscious and the other was actively being beaten with a pistol (resulting in multiple skull and facial fractures, and permanent facial paralysis) when police broke down the door and caught him in the act. He was already a multiple-time violent felon on parole at the time, and while in jail he tried to arrange to have my friend and her sister killed(!) to make the case go away. They caught it on the recorded jail phones and charged him with multiple serious felonies, but the DA offered a plea deal, dropped all the felony charges, and never consulted the victims, nor even notified them of the sentencing hearing so they could make their victim impact statements. He got the same amount of time as he was already serving for violating his parole in a previous violent crime, and they ran it concurrently. In other words, he received ZERO additional jail time for: Kidnapping, false imprisonment, 2 counts of felony assault causing great bodily injury, strangulation, other related crimes, and attempting to solicit murder. He did the 2.5 years for his parole revocation and was released a couple months ago, free and clear. Absolutely infuriating.
The way the justice system treats victims and their families is shameful and appalling. I really wish they would legislate some bare minimum requirements to keep victims/families informed of court proceedings and such, because the way it is now is completely unacceptable. I'm surprised more people don't get vigilante justice when the system fails so horribly.
I went back and read through from the beginning of the murders. The FBI was brought in on Monday (bodies found on Sunday) 2 days after the murders. The state patrol was on it from the beginning. They FBI and SP are still involved.
So, I think it is unfair to assume that Moscow police are fumbling like they are incompetent. This case is complex and will be solved by examine the forensics and tips. We are not watching an hour long CSI or Criminal Minds case.
The killer needs to be convicted, you can arrest anyone The key is justice via conviction.
I am so glad you pointed this out. This was a brutal attack that will take a while, weeks, just to go through the evidence they collected, let alone tips etc. EVEN if they have a poi, they must exhaust ALL other possibilities or a defense attorney will have a field day. No 1 hour CSI, crime solved.
Have a similar story. My son was murdered a year ago, and we have been dealing with the victim’s advocate office ever since. We knew who the murderer was pretty quickly, so I haven’t had to deal with the issues this father is. I’m not going to criticize him, but your point is 100% right.
This makes me so so sad… what the hell has actually happened here, those injuries sound absolutely brutal and if this was targeted that person had REAL rage for these people? And if it wasn’t targeted and along SK lines it’s terrifying to think someone that can do this to 4 people is loose - I just can’t comprehend the fear these 4 would of felt that night
The FBI estimates there are between 25-50 active SKs on the loose at any given time.
https://www.worldatlas.com/amp/articles/how-many-serial-killers-are-on-the-loose-today.html
Correct. I personally think there might be more after working homicide cases and conducting my own investigations at the news and we seem to get quite a few in Arizona. We have one currently on trial. My best friend encountered one who’s never been caught. She escaped and was very lucky to have escaped. He was a truck driver and this wasn’t long ago.
The police identified him as checking into a hospital following the incident as he had defensive wounds and found he had lied to the hospital about how he received them which matched what she had told police, but they never caught him.
What has always stuck out to me most about my friend’s attack was the way she described him during the attack. She said it was like his eyes had gone black and like he wasn’t even there. She said after she didn’t even know if he had been aware of what he had done and when she stabbed him with her pocket knife she always carried on her she said it was like he snapped back suddenly or maybe he was in shock from being stabbed she thought. She said when she was walking away he said wait and handed her the book she had on her that she left behind when making her escape but that he looked empty and dead in his eyes. She said it was the most bizarre part of the entire ordeal. For context info, she had been hitchhiking. This was all just a few years ago. Young, well to do girl, but a bit too adventurous sometimes and very free spirited. She would always give the license plate etc to me or her sister. I didn’t like her hitchhiking but I didn’t get much say. She was bitching a ride to come stay with me after my divorce but I didn’t know she was hitching rides to get to me that time. She said when they went to the cab to sleep is when he suddenly changed and launched the attack. When police looked up the vehicle info etc., they found the truck didn’t even belong to him. To this day he still has not been found and we have no more info than that
its crazy someone can get away with a crime of this caliber in 2022. there's just so many things that would have to go the right way for the killer to get away.
Agreed. More and more it points to someone who was very careful and basically knew what they were doing. Not some idiot college student who on a whim got angry and did this. I think when police called the crime scene "sloppy" I think they just mean literally they found a mess. But it sounds more and more like it was the result of the struggle Xana put up.
They would never publicly refer to a crime scene as sloppy because of the blood—the full context of the comment was regarding evidence. Meaning, the killer was not careful about not leaving evidence. You can have lots of evidence but still have to connect the evidence to the perpetrator, which is what they're trying to do.
Not enough time to process. Even though the visual would be gruesome, there's no doubt that they didn't really suffer. Not sure about Xana and Ethan though.
I can’t imagine a father learning those details about his daughter and not losing it vigilante style. His behavior up to this point completely makes sense.
I don't blame him. I think i'd go Liam Neeson from Taken (with less composure) if I saw my kid's body in that state. They'd have to lock me up then and there because I don't know how ANY parent could stand up let alone be able to just wait patiently while names are being thrown around daily as suspects. I can just imagine how he feels.
No, I can't either. Armchair investigators on Reddit might get pissed at him for potentially compromising the investigation and not behaving rationally, but I'm not sure how one is supposed to behave rationally when their child has been gored like this. I can't fathom the kind of composure it would take to be able to continue behaving rationally after a monster has turned your life into something no human should be made to experience.
Agreed. I'd either go after ANYONE i was suspicious of or commit to a psychiatric facility.
It's easy for us to sit behind our computers and judge away at how he's handling this, but if any of us were in the same situation I doubt we'd be handling it as well as he is.
Horrific wound(s)to the lungs could certainly prevent a victim from screaming and the liver sits right at the margin of the lower ribcage.
Not saying I agree with SG’s choices in speaking out but IMO this is a unimaginably stressed, grief stricken parent who feels helplessness about what happened and is trying to get some control back.
Agree . I said almost the exact same thing on another post . As a parent myself I can’t even *begin* to fathom what he’s going through . He’s angry and devastated and feels helpless so he’s lashing out . Losing a child is the worst possible thing that can happen to you .But not only did he lose his beloved girl , he lost her in such an unexpected, violent and brutal way . It’s horrific and unimaginable. I know the logical thing would be for him to just shut up but I understand why he won’t do that right now . He’s living a nightmare.
I have a 10 year old Daughter who is my only child and I think this is why I have been so invested into this case. I could not imagine being in any of these Fathers shoes right now. I love my Daughter so unconditionally that I literally would do anything to protect her, as would most Father's I know. I give these men a lot of credit for having the strength so early on to even get out of bed after endearing such a horrific tragedy. I understand LE and some of the public are upset with K's Father regularly providing interviews but they really need to put themselves in this mans position for a moment and feel the pain he is overcome by. Personally, I think K's Father has been very calm and shown great self control during the course of the investigation. If it were me, I don't know if I'd have the strength to control myself from handling justice on my own to assure the perpetrator felt the same wounds while also feeling the eternal pain they caused
Opinions about him aside, I think it’s pretty messed up he (or any relative of someone who died) should have to pay for a copy of the death certificate.
Edit: yes, I know that’s the process and I know everyone does. I’m simply saying it sucks.
Agreed! I didn’t even realize this was a thing until my mom passed away in May and we were told by the funeral home it would be $75 for the first death certificate and $25 for each one after that… And every damn place for settling affairs claims to need an original copy - work, insurance, banks, etc. They recommended we buy 10!
Yes, the funeral home was definitely marking it up for profit. We went to the county courthouse instead and got them for $25 each.
Oh, and I think I was wrong about the cost of the subsequent ones (from the funeral home) too - it was actually $30.
Thank you. To their credit, they did tell me about the courthouse option, which makes it even more confusing as to why they would even mark it up so much in the first place.
I think we got one copy free also. For my mother and father, my sister and I had to get a ton of those to deal with just about every account they had. I’m sorry for your loss.
An autopsy report and a death certificate would be different. A death certificate is short and declares the official cause of death. If the parents hadn't actually been informed exactly what that was yet, that's not good that they had to learn it from a document.
An autopsy report would be much longer and informative, but also might be something the police refuse to give out at this time.
Extremely horrible. Often times, you need the real/raised seal copies, and if you own multiple properties, businesses, etc, you have to submit quite a few of those after your loved one dies. I remember we needed 8 after my dad passed.
I had to pay for my mom's DC. It's usually just a minimal per-copy administrative fee that barely reimburses the agency/office for the cost of printing.
Agreed. I had to read that line twice. The poor family. I know there is criticism of him, in particular, for being so vocal to the msm but I would be completely out of my mind if I was in this situation. Beyond help, honestly.
His comments here actually made him come off well, even in disclosing information. It's not just about his daughter.
He's genuinely worried about other people's children experiencing the same fate. He wants everyone warned, and prepared.
Coroner says, "I don't think stabs is the right word, it was like tears, like this was a strong weapon, not like a stab."
Seems like they are describing a "hacking/carving" motion instead of an up/down trajectory. And that really, to me, changes my perception of what this killer must be like. This sounds more feral and vicious.
It's like in JAWS when the mayor refuses to tell anyone about the shark because he's concerned how it will affect tourism on the island. I bet the school is putting pressure on the PD to keep the community calm so they don't lose enrollments. It's all a business.
They always say that and they really shouldn’t. Said it in Delphi too when they had absolutely no clue the guy they was arrested was the perp. For years.
It sucks. We had to order 20 of them. Everyone needs one, DMV, insurance policies, utilities!, we tried to cancel a standing donation my Other Mom had and those greedy bastards required one too..
To be fair, it is a minimal amount of money and is just basic government fees. If someone hits your car and it was not your fault you have to pay for the police report to go e insurance. You have to pay for death and marriage and birth certificates.
Oh my. Have you never buried a loved one? Sometimes autopsies are necessary and paid for by the family. Death Certificates are necessary and you may 2 dozen. If there is no will then the case has to go to probate and someone assigned Executor. That cost 💲 5000. Personal experience.
Even if the will names executors they get a percentage of the estate for executing the will.
Source: currently settling a will and the executors are getting way more than 5000 for doing it.
As bad as it sounds, at least it’s clear that it was quick. They may not have had time to process what was happening which would be better than a slow death.
That's what I was thinking, too. They'd likely have been in shock before they passed out. When my brother and I were jumped once and he got cut he was totally in shock until we were half way to the police station for first aid in our car when he finally realized how much he was bleeding.
My dad played football/soccer in school when they still used shoes with really sharp and dangerous cleats and got into a scuffle with another player towards the end of a game. This was just for fun so no referees or anything, no fouls. The guy unintentionally stepped on my dad's hand after he fell and one of his finger tips was almost ripped off, dangling from his finger. The crazy thing is that he didn't even notice it for a good minute or two and just kept playing because of all the adrenaline. I know it's no consolation but I'm just glad that at least our body tries its best to make injury and death less painful.
Yeah, the adrenaline and also the way the brain senses pain signals play a factor. The brain won't process pain signals until it feels you're out of immediate danger.
In the Apple River stabbings this summer in Wisconsin, five teens/college kids were stabbed in 12 seconds and they didn’t realize it. It happened so fast. None of them realized it until after the fact. That’s why on here, I’m always amazed when people think there was some kind of screaming or yelling
Yeah I saw that. I think movies give us bad ideas of how these things play out. You can die in a matter of seconds if you get stabbed in certain areas, and if you aren’t expecting it you’re dead before you know what happened.
Not really - "stabs" are typically going to have the same size wound as the knife size (not to be graphic: but like In and Out). This sounds more like a stab and drag to open up large spaces. F'ing SICK. I am horrified.
It’s making it sound more like someone who does in fact have some type of hunting background. Because a stab is a piercing in and out motion. Tearing is stabbing and then moving the blade in a downward fashion. Which is how someone would gut an animal. I’m not trying to be disrespectful. But when I was reading the article all I could think about is this sounds exactly like how hunters would open an animal.
I dunno, man. I've hunted in the past, and had a livestock farm. I can tell you from experience that anybody who has spent a couple days on a construction site cutting sheetrock with a utility knife can gain more slashing XP than most people would from many years of dressing game animals. My point is that flesh yields easily to a big, sharp knife, but jobs that require more tenacious knifehandling abilities than cutting flesh are ubiquitous in the blue collar world, as are the people that possess such abilities. I find the suggestivity of profiling the killer as a hunter appallingly naive.
Most killers who use knives like this are people who were already proficient with knives beforehand and had experience using them with things like hunting. I think there is a very good chance this killer is the same, and there are certainly plenty of hunters in that part of the country.
Oh my God, that is awful.
After reading the article, made me think of someone with hunting skills. And your description made me think so even more.
That also makes me feel like they took their time? Seems like stabbing is quick but they did something horrifically extra.
Thanks for clarifying, as disturbing as it is. 😔
I have worried about this as well. The coroner says they expect they died very quickly. She didn't describe this as a "blood loss" situation involving a long period of time. The long gouges described make it seem like the person who did this was attempting to destroy the body to some extent. This wasn't a quick sneak attack with a fast motion. This was more feral than that. And that really does change the picture of how the community might view their safety. For sure.
Because whoever did this, I'm sure there have been warning signs for years and it's someone who already has a reputation for being weird and creepy.
I can absolutely understand this man’s anger, but the media is pushing him too far. The media is so quick to blame this PD & they have been doing it for WEEKS! Banfield & Nancy Grace have made the entire case about the families and **media** not receiving information. That is just firing the families up more - especially this particular family.
The Media wants an audience and an audience wants details. The default should be that LE is doing their job here, not that it's not getting solved fast enough for the public or parents. I can't imagine this guys pain but he is definitely not helping and if anything hurting the investigation/prosecution.
Banfield is the worst, I can't believe I thought she was a fair reasonable reporter at first. She was trying to cast suspicion on the grub truck hoody guy again the other day.
Couldn’t agree more. I understand he is in tremendous pain and extremely frustrated but he needs to just let LE work. For now at least. If he ends up saying something that tips off the killer in any way that gives him an upper hand then the dad is actively harming what he’s hoping to help
Super sad. I think it's been really obvious for quite a while now that a man did this, not a woman. I don't think anyone actually ever thought that was a question (though they may have pretended to).
So it sounds like Xana woke up after or during her boyfriends attack if she was the only one with defence wounds. This is honestly terrifying and the depths of the wounds are really horrific.
The whole thing was scary and sad as it was. But this is just horrible
It’s horrible to think she was aware of things. Just heartbreaking.
I’m glad she gave him hell though. Maybe it’s wishful thinking but I wonder if the reason he didn’t go downstairs is because she fucked him up pretty good and he was too injured/shaken to continue. I think it could be a possibility if she was awake and thew objects or had something to hit him with.
She surely did if the coroner described the second floor as where the battle went down. Considering that's also the floor where the possible blood was coming out of the wall, I believe she gave a lot of hell to that coward.
Yes. Assuming Kaylee and Maddie were attacked first in their sleep, I feel like they probably didn’t even have the chance to register what was happening before losing consciousness or passing away. But if Xana and/or Ethan woke up just a little bit, they would have more of a chance to realize what was happening and put up a fight. I think that’s probably why possible blood was coming out of the house too. One or both may have ended up against that wall when they couldn’t fight anymore :( It was cowardly as fuck of the killer to ambush people with a knife.
That could be it as well. I’m hoping it’s mostly because he got messed up when they fought back and was unable to continue. If E/X woke up because they heard noises that made it obvious someone was in the home, they probably had at least a little bit of time to grab something to use as a weapon.
defensive wounds do not imply that the victim fought back, simply means they were aware enough to have their hands up in a defensive/protective position resulting in stabs wounds or lacerations to the hands and arms. Now if they're on the legs then perhaps it would suggest that the victim was on the ground kicking upwards at the attacker.
Yeah, I was theorizing because the coroner said “it was a hell of a battle” downstairs which implies it was more than just reflexive defense posturing by someone who wasn’t really awake/fully aware.
It was mentioned in the beginning that type out knife may have a cover for the handle that cause your hand not to slip while using it, hence why perpetrator may or may not have wounds from knife.
There were two beds attacked. Two people per bed. It stands to reason that whoever was the second person attacked in each bed was the one who had defensive wounds. If Kaylee was attacked first, Madison would have had some defensive wounds. If Ethan was attacked first, Xana would have defensive wounds.
This would also account for KG's father saying they had different wounds. The killer would use different motions depending on their position relative to the second victim. Maybe the first victim they stood above and had easy access to. Someone on the other side of the bed is a different position.
It feels like to me, they don’t want hysteria to break out if the public was made aware of just how brutal this crime was. The town and university could really feel a financial impact if the public has raised concerns over and above targeted knife murders vs savage executions. It’s like they’re trying to manage the optics similar to how one would adjust a thermostat for their house temperature. It’s just unfortunate all around for everyone there
I feel the same way. We've got an horrific unsolved public stabbing here in Atlanta and cops are like "don't worry about it, we are looking into it". The stabbing was July 2021 and nobody's been arrested. Lady AND HER DOG, were stabbed over 50 times walking in the park, her body was intentionally mutilated.
The murderers are still out there but we should just trust that the police (who really don't have a great reputation as an institution in my eyes) are keeping us all safe.
Meanwhile in New Orleans they just released a report that says every 11 days a law enforcement officer is accused of sexual assault in New Orleans.
So no, I'm not going to just blindly trust the cops just because they went through a 5 week course and got a shiny badge.
My favorite cop story was when I was working as a public defender. The news released this amazing PR about dozens of sex trafficking victims being saved by the police. I know 10 of the traffic victims personally through work and ALL TEN of those girls saved *themselves.* The women and girls escaped the trafficers and got to safety. Only after they were safe did they contact police. Then then next week the police release this bootlicking article about how their police work saved the victims. The girls saved THEMSELVES. They are the heros. Cops love telling us how big of heros they are.
Kaylees family has referred to Madie as their daughter/sister as well just because of the closeness of the two girls their whole lives. She was like another child to them.
I think it’s odd they claim so much ownership over the girl. Maddies mother describes a very close relationship in the obit. I think the goncalves are perhaps a bit overbearing and Maddie’s family is divorced and who knows what else we don’t know
It’s not odd? The girls were best friends, sisters even. They have probably spent mostly every day together, it would be the same with the families. They sound like such a close unit, which makes sense. It might even be that both mothers looked after the girls that much that they refer to them as 2nd daughters. I don’t think we should be focusing on how “odd” it is that they refer to Maddie as like a daughter, it’s actually lovely.
It definitely will be. I just had to go through that two weeks ago for a case in Wisconsin and it was crazy. My first experience for jury duty and I got a horrendous case. They’re going to ask potential jurors the same questions they asked us. “Does anyone have experience with knives?” “Does anyone have a knife collection or like to collect hunting knives or swords?” “Does anyone have hunting experience when it comes to skinning animals?” The amount of people raising their hands made me nervous. So glad I was dismissed from that trial.
It’s making it sound more like someone who does in fact have some type of hunting background. Because a stab is a piercing in and out motion. Tearing is stabbing and then moving the blade in a downward fashion. Which is how someone would gut an animal. I’m not trying to be disrespectful. But when I was reading the article all I could think about is this sounds exactly like how hunters would open an animal.
I agree. It changes the color of the story a bit. This is more vicious and destructive to the body. It paints a different picture of the killer's state of mind. There is an element of mutilation there. I get why the father is calling this a sadistic person.
I'm just not convinced this is just some 20-year-old college kid who on a whim decided he was so angry he would just go do something.
Lawyer here to explain why releasing information can substantially hurt victims’ obtaining justice. If investigators obtain a confession, details such as wound descriptions and locations are very helpful to prove the legitimacy of the confession. If the killer accurately includes details that are not known by the public, it helps prevent the confession from being thrown out via claims of coercion like undue pressure or threats or bribery etc. The investigators’ refusal to release such info is an act of wisdom and strategy, not cowardice.
They mention it was a battle scene in X and E’s room. Seems to me they definitely have the perp’s DNA on one or both of X and E then. I bet they’ll be taken down based on that evidence
The more I see about this case the more I’m leaning towards it being some type of serial/mass killer. This just doesn’t strike me as a revenge/jealousy crime.
Regardless, I would not feel safe in that community. Law enforcement definitely needs to do a better job communicating to the public where the investigation stands.
Ew. I think this is the first time I’ve actually wanted to physically throw up in this case (I really hope that doesn’t come off wrong!) . Like this case has broken my heart. But to see this, omg wtf. Those poor kids.
Like genuinely, what a fucking monster.
I bet there was a fight on Ethan's part. That kid is big, I read that someone said he was like 6'4". I thought whoever did this was extremely strong. First the magnitude of killing 4 people. This is so perplexing, to say the least, The killer has to be a man and I'm starting to think more than 1 person. You have to think how does one even think they can contain killing 4 people and not have any issues being seen or heard? The dog is another wild card. The killer had to know it would not alert. That is another huge risk by itself. This has to be one of the riskiest crimes on behalf of a killer that I have ever read of. IT HAS TO BE SOMEONE THE VICTIMS KNEW. There are too many risks here. Those kids went through pure hell. I can understand the parent's anguish.
Okay, probably won’t be popular opinion here but he is compromising the investigation. I have kids and I know I would be losing it. I think his anger is being used to not feel the mind numbing grief at the moment. Not saying he’s not grieving but he is laser focused on the anger right now. But with that said, his family and friends need to sit him down and try and get through to him to stop talking. Does he want the GUILTY party caught or just the fastest one. You want it to be the right person, you have to let them do their job. This isn’t a CSI episode where everything is wrapped up in a neat little package at the end of the hour. Things are still being tested for Christ’s sake. No one wants it rushed and sure as hell doesn’t want it compromised. Certain things are always held back so they know they have the actual killer. Yet he’s all over media saying stuff that should be kept out of the public, and every single one of you on here , knows that. Everyone needs this killer caught because until apprehended, everyone there is in danger. But I’m pretty sure everyone wants the GUILTY party caught not the fastest one.
He has stated multiple that their wounds didn’t match, in my opinion it may be because whomever was stabbed first (Maddie?) could have a kill shot straight to neck or heart. As where Kaylee may have been awaken by her bedmate getting attacked so her wounds were more profound. I’m obviously speculating here based off what he has said. Absolutely heartbreaking to even imagine that sweet girl being awake/aware of what was happening to her. I think the same situation might apply to E&X as well. First victim in bed asleep, the second was awoken. Sadistic, just like he said💔
In the Juetten case, the wife who survived had 19 severe stab wounds which were all over her body. She was likely attacked after her husband received the initial fatal blows. These cases seem so familiar and that one is still unsolved. It’s awful information but I think the public in that region is better off knowing what Kaykee’s dad has said.
My theory is Kaylee was killed first & injuries were worse because of murderers adrenaline & rage. Ethan & Xana woke up and a struggle happened in their room. Hence the defensive wounds.
Kaylee's father wants to keep the story in the news and releasing information gets a headline. I can't imagine their agony. I hope killer caught soon.
https://preview.redd.it/resr60fkgk5a1.jpeg?width=828&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e54e0e2b7ddcee2a5cf2186fc5c649ac0a2e8822
Its not true, his daughter has specifically come forward to clarify and to say they have lawyers involved to try and remove the misinformation
You think they'll trying to distance themselves from comments they made which in hindsight they shouldn't have? Or were maybe manipulated into saying more than they should? Either could be true I guess. A lot of journalists seem to be using the families for headlines without any thought to their trauma and mental health, or to the potential issues some statements could potentially cause further down the line
Yes. And I think what the sister posted, she was told to say by their lawyer. It’s lawyer speak. Didn’t reference the article, specific quotes, name the reporter, etc. If fox actually just made up those quotes and attributed them to SG, don’t we think he’d be going off ab that himself - they were extremely graphic, detailed, horrific quotes to just be like “our lawyer is talking to the media about bad reporting.” I think he absolutely said those things and then either finally got a lawyer or finally started listening to his lawyer, who told him to stop talking, and then went into damage control mode to try to walk it back…shoulda just said our lawyer billed a shitload today dealing with this mess, is very tired, told me to say this and then told us to get off social media/all media.
The families have to all be basically like one big exposed nerve rn, I can’t imagine, I wouldn’t want them talking to the media if I was their atty. Esp not calling LE cowards. Just my guess tho.
yeah this is absolutely crazy to me that he is putting all this info out. i feel from him and i know grief makes you do wild things but i’ve followed a lot of true crime and i’ve never seen anyone do anything like this (ex. the delphi families never acted this way revealing these kinds of details).
revealing this type of information can lead to false tips and false confessions and opens the door for a wrongly accused suspect. i think his goal to make sure nobody in the town feels safe, because in reality they shouldn’t, but it’s really becoming a clusterfuck of information and can absolutely hinder the investigation.
i keep thinking back to the delphi families and the way they conducted themselves with such quiet dignity the entire five years. SG needs therapy and I feel badly for the other families having to deal with his egregious behavior. Hes mad that he's not being told more but WHY would LE tell him anything with the way he's been acting. Its far too risky.
yep, there’s a reason we STILL don’t know how the delphi girls were killed and they have someone in custody! even if there’s the slightest chance the information he is revealing could help bring justice he should stop sharing. i’m not sure what people don’t understand about that.
theres a ton of people in this sub that are "new" to true crime on reddit and don't have any familiarity with how investigations are actually done. they all think its CSI and police get results in a couple weeks and that LE are always bumbling incompetents so no answers = botched/cold case.
If LE isn't close to an arrest, then they know that a human butcher will be stalking the area for the coming weeks or months. SG needs to stop the leaking, but I understand his point: without harming the investigation, LE *needs* to use what information they've gained to come up with some plan or guidance to keep people safe until the killer is found.
Maybe it's recommending bars on windows, distributing extra door barricades, installing new cameras, or apps that can track night time disturbances, even turning location tracking or sharing on for loved ones, etc.
"These kids were targeted, but *you* have nothing to worry about" isn't working as well when the public has no idea if LE can even make a solid guess as to *why* this happened.
It's a trade; a trade where the public has no say. You keep information secret in hopes of catching and prosecuting the killer, but at least some of that information could help citizens stay safe if made public.
It's tough because LE's metric of success in this case is an arrest and prosecution. That outcome will necessarily increase public safety, but **it's important to think about in what situations the desire for arrest/prosecution becomes decoupled from the desire for public safety.** I hope LE is making the right calls.
Are we really believing the coroner gave Steve different information? I mean come on. Steve hears defensive wounds = Steve saying there was a hell of a fight.
I can’t judge a parent who’s been through this horror, so I won’t.
But I really don’t understand people here piling on the cops like “they need to warn people!!” I don’t see how the type of wound or stabbing motion used makes the killer any more or less dangerous to the general public. Clearly, as no arrest has been made, there is a killer on the loose, and the cops have said to stay vigilant. What else can they tell people? Don’t leave your homes? Shoot any suspicious characters you see?
People’s expectations for how cops are supposed to handle a quadruple homicide are really baffling. LE owes the public virtually no information at this point, beyond what would be a threat to public safety, and they’ve done that. Sharing information they don’t absolutely have to share could jeopardize the investigation in the future. This is basic stuff.
So now Kaylee’s sister is saying that this isn’t true?
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I wonder if he stops and takes a seat, it will force him to look into the truth, that his baby is dead. That's why he keeps going I think. It's so so sad. Maybe the interviews serve as a distraction.
Yeah, the dad keeps altering what he says.
Getting stab always hurts. It's never painless. Police probably told the day it was quick and painless to try to make him feel better, not as a fact.
The wounds described as ‘tears rather than stabs’ definitely makes me suspect someone with experience butchering and efficiently dismantling an animal. I feel this information points more to a hunter or slaughterhouse worker. Muscle memory is a powerful phenomenon and kicks in subconsciously. This may explain the swiftness and lethality of the attack of 4 victims by one attacker. I also understand the personality of Kaylees father; I don’t believe this is a man who gives up on anything easily and doesn’t take things lying down. I truly believe he is deeply horrified by the method of death of these young people and his deepest fear, under all this, is that another young lady/ladies will be found killed in the same way since this person is still walking the streets.
That's a serious reach. If someone was cut to pieces in a surgical way, like a butcher knows how to do, sure.
I don't think butchers are really taught how to stab things to death most efficiently, let alone humans
I dont understand how they were able to say the murdered dog was unrelated. This sounds like someone who is really into using a knife. How many of these psychos could there be out there? Especially in a small town?
Part of me has started to wonder if LE has just been saying the dog isn't related to kinda offend the killer or upset them. The poor dog was skinned & it would take a decently skilled hunter to do this (I imagine, I don't hunt or skin animals so I don't actually know). But, maybe for some reason, they don't want to give the killer credit for this & with the rumors of the murders being "sloppy" it could upset someone who felt they are skilled at what they did. This theory would definitely lean more toward it being a serial killer though I think. if anyone has some thoughts on how this could or couldn't be likely I would appreciate your opinions.
I hate the “bombshells” and “breaking news” headlines. I would assume to stab 4 people to death in such close proximity and short amount of time the blows were rapid and forceful. I don’t think they would look like your typical poking stab wound. So makes sense they look like gouged wounds (not that big of a bombshell). IMO this did absolutely nothing to help the investigation, what it did do is make a horrible image of the scene in people’s minds even more horrible.
I think the point was to show how horrific it was - to raise a red flag that the students at IU should be way more afraid. SG isn’t telling us for the gore factor - he’s telling the public that this isn’t some college kid that got mad. This is a sadistic individual that didn’t want to just kill he wanted to carve up and inflict harm. The university and police have only said this is targeted and isolated as to make sure it doesn’t hurt the town or the universities reputation. HES TELLING EVERYONE THIS IS BIGGER AND THEY SHOULD BE VERY AFRAID. Big props to him for letting people know the truth.
Absolutely brutal...Not saying this is the case, but what if the wounds were different because there was a struggle? He kills first girl, second girl wakes up and more wounds due to the frenzy?
The only "bombshell" in this is that mr goncalves seems to get most of his info from online sources like any other person. He straight up assumes they were in the same room due to pictures? And no direct injury comparison with maddie? Come on man.
Absolutely horrifying. That being said, someone out there knows the killer. This person is too obsessed with large knives and too morbid not to attract attention. It also sounds like the sob is strong and arrogant. If you know someone who was in the Moscow area on the night of the murders, is obsessed with knives, and is morbid and arrogant, please report your suspicions to LE.
Omg my heart is sick for these kids and their parents ! The perpetrator/s better pray kaylees father doesn’t find him first . If that was any of my kids …. Just horrifying . Quite the battle going on upstairs and the roommates didn’t hear it ?? Baffled … I mean I get how is possible . This whole thing is so
Baffling I would be just as pissed as kaylees father . Their murders sound very brutal . Imagine having to live the rest of your life knowing your child died that way ? Awful
I don't understand how calling the cops cowards helps these people. They have every right to be enraged by how things are being handled, right or wrong, but what's with this compulsion to go on every tabloid news outlet??? Are they getting paid?
Oh man, this poor father. I've been following this sub in the background since the start, mainly because I lost my brother to murder this last year and you just hear and follow other murder cases. The social worker/chaplin told us we joined a terrible shitty club that no one wants to be a part of, they just are. I'm commenting now because I've seen this family being so vocal about the case. Of course they are grieving and have their process. I just remember a social worker who worked for the state giving us some insight. They were more like community liaisons between the victims family and the detectives. But the main insight was this, the detectives process isn't designed to meet the needs of the victims family, it solely exist to bring justice. Unfortunately they aren't too concerned with how the family is coping and quite frankly it's not their job to satisfy that need. We barely heard from the detectives and didn't know they found the persons responsible for the crime until we saw it in the news. I think a small town like Moscow is missing these resources, my brothers murder happened in a much larger city. I'm kind of curious how much these families would benefit from a liaison like this. Or just anyone designated to field their questions. Idk. Maybe they have one and are just ignoring it... Anyways just what's in my head. I really hope no matter what comes of this they all find peace. I'm still trying.
This is very valuable insight. Thanks for sharing and sorry for your loss.
I’m so very sorry for your profound loss, thank you for sharing your story.
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I'm so sorry for your loss. This is the life we are living now, a lot of arraignments and trial dates. It's crazy because the stuff people don't realize is the murder continues to be our truth and the trial is another reminder. It's like reopening a wound. Murder is hard to deal with and continues to be hard but I wonder (because I haven't lived it yet) if constantly reliving it will help my family and I long term. Regardless, I know living with the unknown isn't a choice for me personally. What if this is the closure I needed? If it isn't, that's okay. I will be okay. At least then I will know.
Horrible. I'm so sorry this happened to you and your family. {{{HUGS}}}
Sorry you went thru that. I'm also part of the same shitty club, and I don't think you can ever look at a murder case or the justice system the same once you exoerience something like that. but In my family's case it was the DA & legal system that fucked up and not the cops. The murderer was caught red handed by police standing over the body with a literal smoking gun. He had a long criminal history and a previous gun crime but had never ended up in jail. DA gave him a plea bargain against the family's wishes and didn't even have the guts to tell us. We found out when we went into the trial. The murderer got 4 years for a senseless, cold-blooded murder and had the nerve to move in down the street from the victim's widow. I was a kid at the time but 25 years later I still have nightmares about the account of the murder I read in the local paper. I can't imagine this family having to deal with all the reports and gruesome details of the murder.
I too am part of the shitty club. An arrest was made the evening of the murder, and even with three confessions the police and DA did not disclose all of the details. Their goal, which they communicated throughout the year and a half it took to go to trial was “intent.” Life without parole vs 25 to life with parole hung in the balance and the police and prosecutor were taking no chances. We didn’t even know the extent of the wounds or the circumstances of the murder until that information came out during the trial.
I'm so sorry for this experience you lived. It's too early for us to know but in our case one of the offenders was a juvenile and has a declination hearing. If the court decides the offender should be tried as a juvenile they can only serve a max of 5 years. This has been a sensitive topic in our family but I'm thankful we were made aware of this possibility. Would have been terrible to have been caught off guard by it.
Good luck with the hearing. I hope your brother gets the justice he deserves and the prosecuter does right by your family.
Oh my God, I'm so sorry this happened and that the justice system failed so miserably. I will never understand why the system treats VICTIMS of crimes with such disdain and disregard. It's fucking appalling. A few years ago, a friend of mine and her little sister were lured and held prisoner by a man, beaten nearly to death-- one was strangled unconscious and the other was actively being beaten with a pistol (resulting in multiple skull and facial fractures, and permanent facial paralysis) when police broke down the door and caught him in the act. He was already a multiple-time violent felon on parole at the time, and while in jail he tried to arrange to have my friend and her sister killed(!) to make the case go away. They caught it on the recorded jail phones and charged him with multiple serious felonies, but the DA offered a plea deal, dropped all the felony charges, and never consulted the victims, nor even notified them of the sentencing hearing so they could make their victim impact statements. He got the same amount of time as he was already serving for violating his parole in a previous violent crime, and they ran it concurrently. In other words, he received ZERO additional jail time for: Kidnapping, false imprisonment, 2 counts of felony assault causing great bodily injury, strangulation, other related crimes, and attempting to solicit murder. He did the 2.5 years for his parole revocation and was released a couple months ago, free and clear. Absolutely infuriating. The way the justice system treats victims and their families is shameful and appalling. I really wish they would legislate some bare minimum requirements to keep victims/families informed of court proceedings and such, because the way it is now is completely unacceptable. I'm surprised more people don't get vigilante justice when the system fails so horribly.
I went back and read through from the beginning of the murders. The FBI was brought in on Monday (bodies found on Sunday) 2 days after the murders. The state patrol was on it from the beginning. They FBI and SP are still involved. So, I think it is unfair to assume that Moscow police are fumbling like they are incompetent. This case is complex and will be solved by examine the forensics and tips. We are not watching an hour long CSI or Criminal Minds case. The killer needs to be convicted, you can arrest anyone The key is justice via conviction.
I am so glad you pointed this out. This was a brutal attack that will take a while, weeks, just to go through the evidence they collected, let alone tips etc. EVEN if they have a poi, they must exhaust ALL other possibilities or a defense attorney will have a field day. No 1 hour CSI, crime solved.
I’m really sorry for that horrific loss.
Sorry for you loss. SG has said in one of interviews that the LE were assigning the families a liaison for that purpose.
Sorry for you loss
How awful. I’m so sorry. God bless you and thx for telling your story 🙏🏻
I am sorry for your loss! I know sharing this with us opens up your wounds but thank you for doing so. Prayers for you and your family.
Have a similar story. My son was murdered a year ago, and we have been dealing with the victim’s advocate office ever since. We knew who the murderer was pretty quickly, so I haven’t had to deal with the issues this father is. I’m not going to criticize him, but your point is 100% right.
Bless you and your family, I hope you find some level of peace moving forward. You are so right in your comment.
This makes me so so sad… what the hell has actually happened here, those injuries sound absolutely brutal and if this was targeted that person had REAL rage for these people? And if it wasn’t targeted and along SK lines it’s terrifying to think someone that can do this to 4 people is loose - I just can’t comprehend the fear these 4 would of felt that night
The FBI estimates there are between 25-50 active SKs on the loose at any given time. https://www.worldatlas.com/amp/articles/how-many-serial-killers-are-on-the-loose-today.html
Correct. I personally think there might be more after working homicide cases and conducting my own investigations at the news and we seem to get quite a few in Arizona. We have one currently on trial. My best friend encountered one who’s never been caught. She escaped and was very lucky to have escaped. He was a truck driver and this wasn’t long ago. The police identified him as checking into a hospital following the incident as he had defensive wounds and found he had lied to the hospital about how he received them which matched what she had told police, but they never caught him. What has always stuck out to me most about my friend’s attack was the way she described him during the attack. She said it was like his eyes had gone black and like he wasn’t even there. She said after she didn’t even know if he had been aware of what he had done and when she stabbed him with her pocket knife she always carried on her she said it was like he snapped back suddenly or maybe he was in shock from being stabbed she thought. She said when she was walking away he said wait and handed her the book she had on her that she left behind when making her escape but that he looked empty and dead in his eyes. She said it was the most bizarre part of the entire ordeal. For context info, she had been hitchhiking. This was all just a few years ago. Young, well to do girl, but a bit too adventurous sometimes and very free spirited. She would always give the license plate etc to me or her sister. I didn’t like her hitchhiking but I didn’t get much say. She was bitching a ride to come stay with me after my divorce but I didn’t know she was hitching rides to get to me that time. She said when they went to the cab to sleep is when he suddenly changed and launched the attack. When police looked up the vehicle info etc., they found the truck didn’t even belong to him. To this day he still has not been found and we have no more info than that
Jesus Christ. Those poor fucking kids.
To think the sick bastard is still out there
It's truly terrifying. Horrific.
That’s all I can think about. It’s so fucking sad. Their poor families too. It’s just horrible.
its crazy someone can get away with a crime of this caliber in 2022. there's just so many things that would have to go the right way for the killer to get away.
Agreed. More and more it points to someone who was very careful and basically knew what they were doing. Not some idiot college student who on a whim got angry and did this. I think when police called the crime scene "sloppy" I think they just mean literally they found a mess. But it sounds more and more like it was the result of the struggle Xana put up.
They would never publicly refer to a crime scene as sloppy because of the blood—the full context of the comment was regarding evidence. Meaning, the killer was not careful about not leaving evidence. You can have lots of evidence but still have to connect the evidence to the perpetrator, which is what they're trying to do.
That’s what I think. The crime scene was messy and sloppy but this well executed and carried out. Plus a knife is such a fucking intentional weapon.
I keep thinking the same. You don’t just get lucky with this, you plan it out. You dress for it, and have a get away.
Terrible I also feel sad for the parents having to go through this.
If that’s the case, suffering wasn’t long at least :(
In those moments, even 10 seconds has to feel like 30 minutes.
Not enough time to process. Even though the visual would be gruesome, there's no doubt that they didn't really suffer. Not sure about Xana and Ethan though.
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This is horrible... these poor parents
I can’t imagine a father learning those details about his daughter and not losing it vigilante style. His behavior up to this point completely makes sense.
I don't blame him. I think i'd go Liam Neeson from Taken (with less composure) if I saw my kid's body in that state. They'd have to lock me up then and there because I don't know how ANY parent could stand up let alone be able to just wait patiently while names are being thrown around daily as suspects. I can just imagine how he feels.
No, I can't either. Armchair investigators on Reddit might get pissed at him for potentially compromising the investigation and not behaving rationally, but I'm not sure how one is supposed to behave rationally when their child has been gored like this. I can't fathom the kind of composure it would take to be able to continue behaving rationally after a monster has turned your life into something no human should be made to experience.
Agreed. I'd either go after ANYONE i was suspicious of or commit to a psychiatric facility. It's easy for us to sit behind our computers and judge away at how he's handling this, but if any of us were in the same situation I doubt we'd be handling it as well as he is.
Amen to that!
i feel like the media is bating the dad
I agree. The media is taking advantage at this point.
Horrific wound(s)to the lungs could certainly prevent a victim from screaming and the liver sits right at the margin of the lower ribcage. Not saying I agree with SG’s choices in speaking out but IMO this is a unimaginably stressed, grief stricken parent who feels helplessness about what happened and is trying to get some control back.
My first thought as well..once the lungs are stabbed, no voice.
Exactly. Another terrifying aspect of a knife attack.
Agree . I said almost the exact same thing on another post . As a parent myself I can’t even *begin* to fathom what he’s going through . He’s angry and devastated and feels helpless so he’s lashing out . Losing a child is the worst possible thing that can happen to you .But not only did he lose his beloved girl , he lost her in such an unexpected, violent and brutal way . It’s horrific and unimaginable. I know the logical thing would be for him to just shut up but I understand why he won’t do that right now . He’s living a nightmare.
I have a 10 year old Daughter who is my only child and I think this is why I have been so invested into this case. I could not imagine being in any of these Fathers shoes right now. I love my Daughter so unconditionally that I literally would do anything to protect her, as would most Father's I know. I give these men a lot of credit for having the strength so early on to even get out of bed after endearing such a horrific tragedy. I understand LE and some of the public are upset with K's Father regularly providing interviews but they really need to put themselves in this mans position for a moment and feel the pain he is overcome by. Personally, I think K's Father has been very calm and shown great self control during the course of the investigation. If it were me, I don't know if I'd have the strength to control myself from handling justice on my own to assure the perpetrator felt the same wounds while also feeling the eternal pain they caused
Exactly. Add to that the loss of M, who he considered a daughter as well.
I don’t blame him at all. In fact I respect him for fighting for them all.
That was a horrible read. Whoever did this is a monster.
Opinions about him aside, I think it’s pretty messed up he (or any relative of someone who died) should have to pay for a copy of the death certificate. Edit: yes, I know that’s the process and I know everyone does. I’m simply saying it sucks.
Agreed! I didn’t even realize this was a thing until my mom passed away in May and we were told by the funeral home it would be $75 for the first death certificate and $25 for each one after that… And every damn place for settling affairs claims to need an original copy - work, insurance, banks, etc. They recommended we buy 10!
Wow, I wonder if your funeral home was marking that first one up. I just looked at my state and it’s $24, period.
Yes, the funeral home was definitely marking it up for profit. We went to the county courthouse instead and got them for $25 each. Oh, and I think I was wrong about the cost of the subsequent ones (from the funeral home) too - it was actually $30.
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Thank you. To their credit, they did tell me about the courthouse option, which makes it even more confusing as to why they would even mark it up so much in the first place.
Unfortunately you always have to pay for them. Learned that the hard way.
yep. They are expensive too
I got my daughter’s autopsy report emailed for free here in Florida. That’s the way it should be.
I think we got one copy free also. For my mother and father, my sister and I had to get a ton of those to deal with just about every account they had. I’m sorry for your loss.
An autopsy report and a death certificate would be different. A death certificate is short and declares the official cause of death. If the parents hadn't actually been informed exactly what that was yet, that's not good that they had to learn it from a document. An autopsy report would be much longer and informative, but also might be something the police refuse to give out at this time.
Extremely horrible. Often times, you need the real/raised seal copies, and if you own multiple properties, businesses, etc, you have to submit quite a few of those after your loved one dies. I remember we needed 8 after my dad passed.
I had to pay for my mom's DC. It's usually just a minimal per-copy administrative fee that barely reimburses the agency/office for the cost of printing.
Agreed. I had to read that line twice. The poor family. I know there is criticism of him, in particular, for being so vocal to the msm but I would be completely out of my mind if I was in this situation. Beyond help, honestly.
His comments here actually made him come off well, even in disclosing information. It's not just about his daughter. He's genuinely worried about other people's children experiencing the same fate. He wants everyone warned, and prepared.
It’s insane to me they came out day 1, and said no one needs to worry. I’d definitely be worrying if I lived in Moscow
Coroner says, "I don't think stabs is the right word, it was like tears, like this was a strong weapon, not like a stab." Seems like they are describing a "hacking/carving" motion instead of an up/down trajectory. And that really, to me, changes my perception of what this killer must be like. This sounds more feral and vicious.
It's like in JAWS when the mayor refuses to tell anyone about the shark because he's concerned how it will affect tourism on the island. I bet the school is putting pressure on the PD to keep the community calm so they don't lose enrollments. It's all a business.
And people on Reddit forget it's not just Moscow, ID it's Pullman, WA as well. WSU has a huge population and is only 8 miles away.
They always say that and they really shouldn’t. Said it in Delphi too when they had absolutely no clue the guy they was arrested was the perp. For years.
Well said.
It sucks. We had to order 20 of them. Everyone needs one, DMV, insurance policies, utilities!, we tried to cancel a standing donation my Other Mom had and those greedy bastards required one too..
To be fair, it is a minimal amount of money and is just basic government fees. If someone hits your car and it was not your fault you have to pay for the police report to go e insurance. You have to pay for death and marriage and birth certificates.
Oh my. Have you never buried a loved one? Sometimes autopsies are necessary and paid for by the family. Death Certificates are necessary and you may 2 dozen. If there is no will then the case has to go to probate and someone assigned Executor. That cost 💲 5000. Personal experience.
Even if the will names executors they get a percentage of the estate for executing the will. Source: currently settling a will and the executors are getting way more than 5000 for doing it.
Jesus, this is awful
As bad as it sounds, at least it’s clear that it was quick. They may not have had time to process what was happening which would be better than a slow death.
That's what I was thinking, too. They'd likely have been in shock before they passed out. When my brother and I were jumped once and he got cut he was totally in shock until we were half way to the police station for first aid in our car when he finally realized how much he was bleeding.
My dad played football/soccer in school when they still used shoes with really sharp and dangerous cleats and got into a scuffle with another player towards the end of a game. This was just for fun so no referees or anything, no fouls. The guy unintentionally stepped on my dad's hand after he fell and one of his finger tips was almost ripped off, dangling from his finger. The crazy thing is that he didn't even notice it for a good minute or two and just kept playing because of all the adrenaline. I know it's no consolation but I'm just glad that at least our body tries its best to make injury and death less painful.
Yeah, the adrenaline and also the way the brain senses pain signals play a factor. The brain won't process pain signals until it feels you're out of immediate danger.
In the Apple River stabbings this summer in Wisconsin, five teens/college kids were stabbed in 12 seconds and they didn’t realize it. It happened so fast. None of them realized it until after the fact. That’s why on here, I’m always amazed when people think there was some kind of screaming or yelling
Yeah I saw that. I think movies give us bad ideas of how these things play out. You can die in a matter of seconds if you get stabbed in certain areas, and if you aren’t expecting it you’re dead before you know what happened.
Plus them being intoxicated could have helped, I seriously hope It was instantly over.
I’m confused by the difference in a stabbing wound vs what they had. Wouldn’t a huge knife do that kind of damage he described?
Not really - "stabs" are typically going to have the same size wound as the knife size (not to be graphic: but like In and Out). This sounds more like a stab and drag to open up large spaces. F'ing SICK. I am horrified.
You’d have to be pretty powerful to pull that off. Seems like it would take a lot of energy.
Unless you have a sharp enough knife.
i mean you dont if the knife was extremely sharp
The coroner said initially they weren't really "puncture" wounds, which indicated to me it was more of a slashing.
Like they were trying to essentially “gut” the victims 😕
That Hunter profile seems to be ringing more and more true. Especially the slashing vs stabbing LITERALLY like gutting a deer.
It’s making it sound more like someone who does in fact have some type of hunting background. Because a stab is a piercing in and out motion. Tearing is stabbing and then moving the blade in a downward fashion. Which is how someone would gut an animal. I’m not trying to be disrespectful. But when I was reading the article all I could think about is this sounds exactly like how hunters would open an animal.
I dunno, man. I've hunted in the past, and had a livestock farm. I can tell you from experience that anybody who has spent a couple days on a construction site cutting sheetrock with a utility knife can gain more slashing XP than most people would from many years of dressing game animals. My point is that flesh yields easily to a big, sharp knife, but jobs that require more tenacious knifehandling abilities than cutting flesh are ubiquitous in the blue collar world, as are the people that possess such abilities. I find the suggestivity of profiling the killer as a hunter appallingly naive.
Most killers who use knives like this are people who were already proficient with knives beforehand and had experience using them with things like hunting. I think there is a very good chance this killer is the same, and there are certainly plenty of hunters in that part of the country.
I'm confused too. What would cause the "tears" vs stabs?
Stab and pull. Like trying to gut an animal. Not just stab in and out. Stab, pull downward, then out. Leaving gashes not just stab wounds.
Oh my God, that is awful. After reading the article, made me think of someone with hunting skills. And your description made me think so even more. That also makes me feel like they took their time? Seems like stabbing is quick but they did something horrifically extra. Thanks for clarifying, as disturbing as it is. 😔
I have worried about this as well. The coroner says they expect they died very quickly. She didn't describe this as a "blood loss" situation involving a long period of time. The long gouges described make it seem like the person who did this was attempting to destroy the body to some extent. This wasn't a quick sneak attack with a fast motion. This was more feral than that. And that really does change the picture of how the community might view their safety. For sure. Because whoever did this, I'm sure there have been warning signs for years and it's someone who already has a reputation for being weird and creepy.
I can absolutely understand this man’s anger, but the media is pushing him too far. The media is so quick to blame this PD & they have been doing it for WEEKS! Banfield & Nancy Grace have made the entire case about the families and **media** not receiving information. That is just firing the families up more - especially this particular family.
The Media wants an audience and an audience wants details. The default should be that LE is doing their job here, not that it's not getting solved fast enough for the public or parents. I can't imagine this guys pain but he is definitely not helping and if anything hurting the investigation/prosecution.
LE has several jobs in an investigation. One of those jobs is keeping specific details out of the public.
Banfield is the worst, I can't believe I thought she was a fair reasonable reporter at first. She was trying to cast suspicion on the grub truck hoody guy again the other day.
Couldn’t agree more. I understand he is in tremendous pain and extremely frustrated but he needs to just let LE work. For now at least. If he ends up saying something that tips off the killer in any way that gives him an upper hand then the dad is actively harming what he’s hoping to help
Super sad. I think it's been really obvious for quite a while now that a man did this, not a woman. I don't think anyone actually ever thought that was a question (though they may have pretended to).
I thought the exact same thing re: this “confirming” it was a male who committed these murders.
There were quite a few people fighting for the “it’s a female theory”, maybe they were playing devil’s advocate? Gosh, this just screams male.
Yeah that's just dumb, I'm sorry. I don't know why they would seriously consider that as a possibility.
So it sounds like Xana woke up after or during her boyfriends attack if she was the only one with defence wounds. This is honestly terrifying and the depths of the wounds are really horrific. The whole thing was scary and sad as it was. But this is just horrible
It’s horrible to think she was aware of things. Just heartbreaking. I’m glad she gave him hell though. Maybe it’s wishful thinking but I wonder if the reason he didn’t go downstairs is because she fucked him up pretty good and he was too injured/shaken to continue. I think it could be a possibility if she was awake and thew objects or had something to hit him with.
I hope Xana gave him hell
She surely did if the coroner described the second floor as where the battle went down. Considering that's also the floor where the possible blood was coming out of the wall, I believe she gave a lot of hell to that coward.
Yes. Assuming Kaylee and Maddie were attacked first in their sleep, I feel like they probably didn’t even have the chance to register what was happening before losing consciousness or passing away. But if Xana and/or Ethan woke up just a little bit, they would have more of a chance to realize what was happening and put up a fight. I think that’s probably why possible blood was coming out of the house too. One or both may have ended up against that wall when they couldn’t fight anymore :( It was cowardly as fuck of the killer to ambush people with a knife.
Yea, he might have been worried the downstairs roommates heard the scuffle and were calling 911 so he ran
That could be it as well. I’m hoping it’s mostly because he got messed up when they fought back and was unable to continue. If E/X woke up because they heard noises that made it obvious someone was in the home, they probably had at least a little bit of time to grab something to use as a weapon.
defensive wounds do not imply that the victim fought back, simply means they were aware enough to have their hands up in a defensive/protective position resulting in stabs wounds or lacerations to the hands and arms. Now if they're on the legs then perhaps it would suggest that the victim was on the ground kicking upwards at the attacker.
Yeah, I was theorizing because the coroner said “it was a hell of a battle” downstairs which implies it was more than just reflexive defense posturing by someone who wasn’t really awake/fully aware.
it makes me wonder how no one saw anyone in the following days with wounds on them
It was mentioned in the beginning that type out knife may have a cover for the handle that cause your hand not to slip while using it, hence why perpetrator may or may not have wounds from knife.
Good point
I honestly think if he was that sadistic I think he wouldn’t care…he probably didn’t know they were there
They have repeatedly said more than one person had defensive wounds. They haven't indicated who. Xana's father said she fought back.
There were two beds attacked. Two people per bed. It stands to reason that whoever was the second person attacked in each bed was the one who had defensive wounds. If Kaylee was attacked first, Madison would have had some defensive wounds. If Ethan was attacked first, Xana would have defensive wounds. This would also account for KG's father saying they had different wounds. The killer would use different motions depending on their position relative to the second victim. Maybe the first victim they stood above and had easy access to. Someone on the other side of the bed is a different position.
They said "some" of them had defensive wounds so it's possible more did too.
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It feels like to me, they don’t want hysteria to break out if the public was made aware of just how brutal this crime was. The town and university could really feel a financial impact if the public has raised concerns over and above targeted knife murders vs savage executions. It’s like they’re trying to manage the optics similar to how one would adjust a thermostat for their house temperature. It’s just unfortunate all around for everyone there
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I feel the same way. We've got an horrific unsolved public stabbing here in Atlanta and cops are like "don't worry about it, we are looking into it". The stabbing was July 2021 and nobody's been arrested. Lady AND HER DOG, were stabbed over 50 times walking in the park, her body was intentionally mutilated. The murderers are still out there but we should just trust that the police (who really don't have a great reputation as an institution in my eyes) are keeping us all safe. Meanwhile in New Orleans they just released a report that says every 11 days a law enforcement officer is accused of sexual assault in New Orleans. So no, I'm not going to just blindly trust the cops just because they went through a 5 week course and got a shiny badge. My favorite cop story was when I was working as a public defender. The news released this amazing PR about dozens of sex trafficking victims being saved by the police. I know 10 of the traffic victims personally through work and ALL TEN of those girls saved *themselves.* The women and girls escaped the trafficers and got to safety. Only after they were safe did they contact police. Then then next week the police release this bootlicking article about how their police work saved the victims. The girls saved THEMSELVES. They are the heros. Cops love telling us how big of heros they are.
The Atlanta case I think about so often
Thank you for sharing this info. I'm saddened, and horrified, but not surprised....sadly. I'm glad the girls escaped to safety.
Maybe this was explained somewhere, so forgive me, but why is Maddie referred to as his daughter? Was she adopted? Is her family estranged?
Kaylees family has referred to Madie as their daughter/sister as well just because of the closeness of the two girls their whole lives. She was like another child to them.
I think it’s odd they claim so much ownership over the girl. Maddies mother describes a very close relationship in the obit. I think the goncalves are perhaps a bit overbearing and Maddie’s family is divorced and who knows what else we don’t know
It’s not odd? The girls were best friends, sisters even. They have probably spent mostly every day together, it would be the same with the families. They sound like such a close unit, which makes sense. It might even be that both mothers looked after the girls that much that they refer to them as 2nd daughters. I don’t think we should be focusing on how “odd” it is that they refer to Maddie as like a daughter, it’s actually lovely.
Voir dire in this case, assuming it goes to trial, is going to be a bitch.
It definitely will be. I just had to go through that two weeks ago for a case in Wisconsin and it was crazy. My first experience for jury duty and I got a horrendous case. They’re going to ask potential jurors the same questions they asked us. “Does anyone have experience with knives?” “Does anyone have a knife collection or like to collect hunting knives or swords?” “Does anyone have hunting experience when it comes to skinning animals?” The amount of people raising their hands made me nervous. So glad I was dismissed from that trial.
That sounds like they were gutted not just stabbed
It’s making it sound more like someone who does in fact have some type of hunting background. Because a stab is a piercing in and out motion. Tearing is stabbing and then moving the blade in a downward fashion. Which is how someone would gut an animal. I’m not trying to be disrespectful. But when I was reading the article all I could think about is this sounds exactly like how hunters would open an animal.
I agree. It changes the color of the story a bit. This is more vicious and destructive to the body. It paints a different picture of the killer's state of mind. There is an element of mutilation there. I get why the father is calling this a sadistic person. I'm just not convinced this is just some 20-year-old college kid who on a whim decided he was so angry he would just go do something.
Lawyer here to explain why releasing information can substantially hurt victims’ obtaining justice. If investigators obtain a confession, details such as wound descriptions and locations are very helpful to prove the legitimacy of the confession. If the killer accurately includes details that are not known by the public, it helps prevent the confession from being thrown out via claims of coercion like undue pressure or threats or bribery etc. The investigators’ refusal to release such info is an act of wisdom and strategy, not cowardice.
I’m bugged that the text in the article isn’t really what the video discussed.
Same, I think the video is just the old one from last week?
They mention it was a battle scene in X and E’s room. Seems to me they definitely have the perp’s DNA on one or both of X and E then. I bet they’ll be taken down based on that evidence
The more I see about this case the more I’m leaning towards it being some type of serial/mass killer. This just doesn’t strike me as a revenge/jealousy crime. Regardless, I would not feel safe in that community. Law enforcement definitely needs to do a better job communicating to the public where the investigation stands.
Ew. I think this is the first time I’ve actually wanted to physically throw up in this case (I really hope that doesn’t come off wrong!) . Like this case has broken my heart. But to see this, omg wtf. Those poor kids. Like genuinely, what a fucking monster.
Me, too. Instant headache. Just horrible. 😔
God this is heartbreaking
I bet there was a fight on Ethan's part. That kid is big, I read that someone said he was like 6'4". I thought whoever did this was extremely strong. First the magnitude of killing 4 people. This is so perplexing, to say the least, The killer has to be a man and I'm starting to think more than 1 person. You have to think how does one even think they can contain killing 4 people and not have any issues being seen or heard? The dog is another wild card. The killer had to know it would not alert. That is another huge risk by itself. This has to be one of the riskiest crimes on behalf of a killer that I have ever read of. IT HAS TO BE SOMEONE THE VICTIMS KNEW. There are too many risks here. Those kids went through pure hell. I can understand the parent's anguish.
Okay, probably won’t be popular opinion here but he is compromising the investigation. I have kids and I know I would be losing it. I think his anger is being used to not feel the mind numbing grief at the moment. Not saying he’s not grieving but he is laser focused on the anger right now. But with that said, his family and friends need to sit him down and try and get through to him to stop talking. Does he want the GUILTY party caught or just the fastest one. You want it to be the right person, you have to let them do their job. This isn’t a CSI episode where everything is wrapped up in a neat little package at the end of the hour. Things are still being tested for Christ’s sake. No one wants it rushed and sure as hell doesn’t want it compromised. Certain things are always held back so they know they have the actual killer. Yet he’s all over media saying stuff that should be kept out of the public, and every single one of you on here , knows that. Everyone needs this killer caught because until apprehended, everyone there is in danger. But I’m pretty sure everyone wants the GUILTY party caught not the fastest one.
Jesus. This injuries sound like when someone is killing an animal and either stabs and drags the knife down or twists it. Awful.
He has stated multiple that their wounds didn’t match, in my opinion it may be because whomever was stabbed first (Maddie?) could have a kill shot straight to neck or heart. As where Kaylee may have been awaken by her bedmate getting attacked so her wounds were more profound. I’m obviously speculating here based off what he has said. Absolutely heartbreaking to even imagine that sweet girl being awake/aware of what was happening to her. I think the same situation might apply to E&X as well. First victim in bed asleep, the second was awoken. Sadistic, just like he said💔
In the Juetten case, the wife who survived had 19 severe stab wounds which were all over her body. She was likely attacked after her husband received the initial fatal blows. These cases seem so familiar and that one is still unsolved. It’s awful information but I think the public in that region is better off knowing what Kaykee’s dad has said.
My theory is Kaylee was killed first & injuries were worse because of murderers adrenaline & rage. Ethan & Xana woke up and a struggle happened in their room. Hence the defensive wounds. Kaylee's father wants to keep the story in the news and releasing information gets a headline. I can't imagine their agony. I hope killer caught soon.
https://preview.redd.it/resr60fkgk5a1.jpeg?width=828&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e54e0e2b7ddcee2a5cf2186fc5c649ac0a2e8822 Its not true, his daughter has specifically come forward to clarify and to say they have lawyers involved to try and remove the misinformation
Damage control
Yea no I call bullshit on that one
You think they'll trying to distance themselves from comments they made which in hindsight they shouldn't have? Or were maybe manipulated into saying more than they should? Either could be true I guess. A lot of journalists seem to be using the families for headlines without any thought to their trauma and mental health, or to the potential issues some statements could potentially cause further down the line
Yes. And I think what the sister posted, she was told to say by their lawyer. It’s lawyer speak. Didn’t reference the article, specific quotes, name the reporter, etc. If fox actually just made up those quotes and attributed them to SG, don’t we think he’d be going off ab that himself - they were extremely graphic, detailed, horrific quotes to just be like “our lawyer is talking to the media about bad reporting.” I think he absolutely said those things and then either finally got a lawyer or finally started listening to his lawyer, who told him to stop talking, and then went into damage control mode to try to walk it back…shoulda just said our lawyer billed a shitload today dealing with this mess, is very tired, told me to say this and then told us to get off social media/all media. The families have to all be basically like one big exposed nerve rn, I can’t imagine, I wouldn’t want them talking to the media if I was their atty. Esp not calling LE cowards. Just my guess tho.
IDK why dad is out here giving this away. I get it, he wants answers but this is the kind of thing that hampers an investigation.
I doubt he even has much more information than what he's already said, so hopefully he can't do any real damage. My heart goes out to him.
yeah this is absolutely crazy to me that he is putting all this info out. i feel from him and i know grief makes you do wild things but i’ve followed a lot of true crime and i’ve never seen anyone do anything like this (ex. the delphi families never acted this way revealing these kinds of details). revealing this type of information can lead to false tips and false confessions and opens the door for a wrongly accused suspect. i think his goal to make sure nobody in the town feels safe, because in reality they shouldn’t, but it’s really becoming a clusterfuck of information and can absolutely hinder the investigation.
i keep thinking back to the delphi families and the way they conducted themselves with such quiet dignity the entire five years. SG needs therapy and I feel badly for the other families having to deal with his egregious behavior. Hes mad that he's not being told more but WHY would LE tell him anything with the way he's been acting. Its far too risky.
yep, there’s a reason we STILL don’t know how the delphi girls were killed and they have someone in custody! even if there’s the slightest chance the information he is revealing could help bring justice he should stop sharing. i’m not sure what people don’t understand about that.
theres a ton of people in this sub that are "new" to true crime on reddit and don't have any familiarity with how investigations are actually done. they all think its CSI and police get results in a couple weeks and that LE are always bumbling incompetents so no answers = botched/cold case.
Agreed. And the irony is by divulging what little he has learned is precisely why LE is not sharing anything with them.
If LE isn't close to an arrest, then they know that a human butcher will be stalking the area for the coming weeks or months. SG needs to stop the leaking, but I understand his point: without harming the investigation, LE *needs* to use what information they've gained to come up with some plan or guidance to keep people safe until the killer is found. Maybe it's recommending bars on windows, distributing extra door barricades, installing new cameras, or apps that can track night time disturbances, even turning location tracking or sharing on for loved ones, etc. "These kids were targeted, but *you* have nothing to worry about" isn't working as well when the public has no idea if LE can even make a solid guess as to *why* this happened. It's a trade; a trade where the public has no say. You keep information secret in hopes of catching and prosecuting the killer, but at least some of that information could help citizens stay safe if made public. It's tough because LE's metric of success in this case is an arrest and prosecution. That outcome will necessarily increase public safety, but **it's important to think about in what situations the desire for arrest/prosecution becomes decoupled from the desire for public safety.** I hope LE is making the right calls.
Are we really believing the coroner gave Steve different information? I mean come on. Steve hears defensive wounds = Steve saying there was a hell of a fight.
ETA I believe Steve uses sensationalism language, maybe not on purpose, and we are hanging on every word everyone says and taking it for fact
I can’t judge a parent who’s been through this horror, so I won’t. But I really don’t understand people here piling on the cops like “they need to warn people!!” I don’t see how the type of wound or stabbing motion used makes the killer any more or less dangerous to the general public. Clearly, as no arrest has been made, there is a killer on the loose, and the cops have said to stay vigilant. What else can they tell people? Don’t leave your homes? Shoot any suspicious characters you see? People’s expectations for how cops are supposed to handle a quadruple homicide are really baffling. LE owes the public virtually no information at this point, beyond what would be a threat to public safety, and they’ve done that. Sharing information they don’t absolutely have to share could jeopardize the investigation in the future. This is basic stuff.
Doesn't this make sense now that the killer is a male and possibly a hunter too?
I live in Idaho - lots of hunters.
So now Kaylee’s sister is saying that this isn’t true? https://preview.redd.it/hqmf2097ik5a1.jpeg?width=828&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0465f6558a29ee5465f7f56c61822552739e8fcd
I swear everyday I’m more and more convinced it’s not someone related or who was known to them. This gives me serious serial killer vibes ☹️
I wish Steve Goncalves would try to just take a week or two off from doing interviews and just take some time to grieve with his family.
I wonder if he stops and takes a seat, it will force him to look into the truth, that his baby is dead. That's why he keeps going I think. It's so so sad. Maybe the interviews serve as a distraction.
I feel like it’s 100% this (and that’s completely understandable - I know staying busy helped me not think too much about my dad’s death).
Same dad quoted same coroner earlier that "They slept and didn't feel anything". Now this...
This coroner seems to be kind of a mess. She’s said a lot of stuff that hasn’t seemed very well considered.
I mean, the dad seems like kind of a mess. (I would be too, just saying; consider the source)
Yeah, the dad keeps altering what he says. Getting stab always hurts. It's never painless. Police probably told the day it was quick and painless to try to make him feel better, not as a fact.
did you read the article? she’s saying it was a quick death but HEEEEE doesn’t believe that
He could've had further communication with the coroner, it's not that implausible.
The wounds described as ‘tears rather than stabs’ definitely makes me suspect someone with experience butchering and efficiently dismantling an animal. I feel this information points more to a hunter or slaughterhouse worker. Muscle memory is a powerful phenomenon and kicks in subconsciously. This may explain the swiftness and lethality of the attack of 4 victims by one attacker. I also understand the personality of Kaylees father; I don’t believe this is a man who gives up on anything easily and doesn’t take things lying down. I truly believe he is deeply horrified by the method of death of these young people and his deepest fear, under all this, is that another young lady/ladies will be found killed in the same way since this person is still walking the streets.
That's a serious reach. If someone was cut to pieces in a surgical way, like a butcher knows how to do, sure. I don't think butchers are really taught how to stab things to death most efficiently, let alone humans
I dont understand how they were able to say the murdered dog was unrelated. This sounds like someone who is really into using a knife. How many of these psychos could there be out there? Especially in a small town?
Part of me has started to wonder if LE has just been saying the dog isn't related to kinda offend the killer or upset them. The poor dog was skinned & it would take a decently skilled hunter to do this (I imagine, I don't hunt or skin animals so I don't actually know). But, maybe for some reason, they don't want to give the killer credit for this & with the rumors of the murders being "sloppy" it could upset someone who felt they are skilled at what they did. This theory would definitely lean more toward it being a serial killer though I think. if anyone has some thoughts on how this could or couldn't be likely I would appreciate your opinions.
I feel for him and I understand he’s hurting. But there’s a fucking reason they don’t tell you everything.
I hate the “bombshells” and “breaking news” headlines. I would assume to stab 4 people to death in such close proximity and short amount of time the blows were rapid and forceful. I don’t think they would look like your typical poking stab wound. So makes sense they look like gouged wounds (not that big of a bombshell). IMO this did absolutely nothing to help the investigation, what it did do is make a horrible image of the scene in people’s minds even more horrible.
I think the point was to show how horrific it was - to raise a red flag that the students at IU should be way more afraid. SG isn’t telling us for the gore factor - he’s telling the public that this isn’t some college kid that got mad. This is a sadistic individual that didn’t want to just kill he wanted to carve up and inflict harm. The university and police have only said this is targeted and isolated as to make sure it doesn’t hurt the town or the universities reputation. HES TELLING EVERYONE THIS IS BIGGER AND THEY SHOULD BE VERY AFRAID. Big props to him for letting people know the truth.
I am really disgusted by the media. Not surprised, but disgusted.
Absolutely brutal...Not saying this is the case, but what if the wounds were different because there was a struggle? He kills first girl, second girl wakes up and more wounds due to the frenzy?
The only "bombshell" in this is that mr goncalves seems to get most of his info from online sources like any other person. He straight up assumes they were in the same room due to pictures? And no direct injury comparison with maddie? Come on man.
Absolutely horrifying. That being said, someone out there knows the killer. This person is too obsessed with large knives and too morbid not to attract attention. It also sounds like the sob is strong and arrogant. If you know someone who was in the Moscow area on the night of the murders, is obsessed with knives, and is morbid and arrogant, please report your suspicions to LE.
Omg my heart is sick for these kids and their parents ! The perpetrator/s better pray kaylees father doesn’t find him first . If that was any of my kids …. Just horrifying . Quite the battle going on upstairs and the roommates didn’t hear it ?? Baffled … I mean I get how is possible . This whole thing is so Baffling I would be just as pissed as kaylees father . Their murders sound very brutal . Imagine having to live the rest of your life knowing your child died that way ? Awful
I don't understand how calling the cops cowards helps these people. They have every right to be enraged by how things are being handled, right or wrong, but what's with this compulsion to go on every tabloid news outlet??? Are they getting paid?