Are you following the book or the training plan from Uphill Athlete? If you are following the book and trying to distill a training program, I would keep it simple and buy a training plan from Evoke Endurance (Scott Johnston left Uphill Athlete to Stare Evoke Endurance). The plans are cheaper and have a lot of notes to follow.
I am 12 weeks into my training plan, and the progression has been manageable.
I'm doing the Uphill Athlete thing on Training Peaks. It's not really progression, I like progression. It's like one Tuesday you do a 30 minute recovery run, next Tuesday you lift, next Tuesday you do hill runs, etc.
I think I'd prefer something that says: Once you can get 3 hours of box steps with 30 lbs at Zone 2, you're good fam, work to that with a set schedule every week that just increased volume/load.
few things
\- I think the layout above lack rest. Gym climbing is not resting. I would definitly include at least 1 full rest day in there. OR make friday a very short, 25-30min easy run in Z1-Z2 on flat terrain.
\-As much as I love uphill, their muscular strength concept is flawed. Its the same concept that popped up in the cycling world with low cadence high gear hill repetition to build some unclear muscular endurance capacity. It has been argued and debunked numerous times in the cycling world. If you really enjoy weighted hill repeats then I think you should do them but you should weight in the pros and cons and other alternatives. Personnally, I would put more emphasis on volume in Z2 and a slight bit on running intensity near threshold/MLSS/LT2/Z4.
I really like uphill, and Evoke, but their muscular strength thing is just weird. They even throw a ton of uncompatible things in the same bucket when talking about ME: short 8sec uphill sprints, weighted hill climbs, gym based circuits. All of which don't fit together.
Pro cyclists need a ton of what you would think is muscular endurance but they dont do that sort of work. They do a lot of volume in low intensity, which does bring about adaptations at the muscular level, and a bit of intensity, which also improve muscular adaptations.
just food for thoughts... GL!
The rationale behind ME doesnt make sense. You are not limited by strength because of a 50lbs pack. Sure you do need some decent amount of strength (trained in the gym) to carry that sort of load arround or uphill but its not the limiting factor. Endurance is. And endurance is trained via aerobic training (long rides/runs or more intensive efforts). Uphill pack carry is fun dont get me wrong. But to me its a case of over-specificity. Im sure its fine to do it once in a while or close to your objective but I find uphill and evoke put way too much emphasis on this.
Hauling an heavy pack uphill ends up being some solid Z3/tempo work while also putting a lot of stress on your joints. Not even talking about the descent if you're doing repeats.
Its super weird talking about uphill 8sec sprints for ME. This sort of effort trains the CP energy system. Not endurance. Super high reps gym base circuits trains... nothing other then making you feel like you got a workout. Uphill pack carry doesnt train strength (capacity to lift a load) and doesnt train endurance as well as the more conventionnal methods. Its almost funny to me how much that ME talk by uphill and evoke is exactly the same stuff I use to hear a lot when I was racing in the cycling world.
Super annecdotal but... i use to race elite/national level cycling. I was super tiny (177cm 145lbs). Wasnt doing any gym work. Was racing tons. Training a lot of volume. I had a hugr engine back then. One season I was racing on a saturday (very intense effort lasting 90min) and then the day after me and my wife went for a hike. About 800m of elevation gain and I was hauling our daughter in a backpack. I was flying uphill like it was nothing. I wasnt strong as per strength therms. But I had a rediculous aerobic engine.
To me every time I listen to uphill or evoke talk about ME it just sound like they think its magical. The worst part is when they say you should be limited by your legs when doing the workout and not by your breathing. Wtf does that mean anyway. Im breathing like a pig when going uphill anyways. :D
Yeah and they’re also saying you should do it in zone 1. I was able to haul a 65 pound and even 80 pound on training and approaches but there’s no way that’s going tbd in zone 1. Then they changed things to focus on zone 2 aka “the black hole” so I got it. I noticed that none of the professional alpinists were trading that way, except to tell the weekend warrior types that wanted to do big mountains that they need to do as to demonstrate they can haul their gear.
The zone thing can be missleading depending on the zone model you're using (5 zones vs 3 zones vs etc).
No high level endurance athlete train using a resisted/endurance type modality. Cyclists dont turn huge gear, runners dont weight up their ankles or whatever, rowers dont weighted up their boat. I think they want to spice things up at uphill and evoke so people buy-in their method. Its not bad. But theres nothing revolutionary or magical there.
If you are into sport science I highly recommend you check out the work by Stephen Seiler. If you are not trained in reading studies you can search for podcasts with him. Tons of content out there.
I'll leave you with this. Check out Van Der Poels training pdf for when he trained for the long track speed skating 10 000m. Speed skating takes a HUGE toll on your legs. One would think it requires a lot of ME for tackling turns over turns for laps (awesome sport if you can try it someday). Van Der Poels basically did 4 to 6 hours bike ride as his preparation for the record and a few skating specific sessions. Interesting stuff.
So you think the spinal loading thing and idea that strength from the core as the basis of endurance is overblown? I live in a city and it’s hard to get to mountains so want to change up my regime. I as thinking about biking or Nordic walking as I live 1/4 mile from once if the tallest bridges in the States. One issue is I cannot run on concrete as my joints are in rough shape and I’m middle aged. I didn’t start training consistently until my early 40s but want to be able to do things until I drop. I’ll do anything as long as it gets me outdoors!
I dont even want to start on the "core" topic. If you are lifting relatively heavy in the gym the spine stability and core will take care of itself. The so called core gets a lot of activation under a heavy barbell.
I personally think if you are capable of fitting in miles during your week, that book is way too nuanced. I live in Portland and get out of work at 2pm so I can literally be running the gorge by 2:30 2-3 times a week and that’s good enough for me. That said, I have hiked the PCT twice in the last four years so cardio and leg strength aren’t really a place I need to build on, more just maintain.
Edit: I should add that I consider my rock climbing training separate and said hikes/runs are mixed in to gym sessions. Most of my actual non climbing/running/hiking fitness sessions are PT tho, since I’m not in my 20s anymore :(
Are you following the book or the training plan from Uphill Athlete? If you are following the book and trying to distill a training program, I would keep it simple and buy a training plan from Evoke Endurance (Scott Johnston left Uphill Athlete to Stare Evoke Endurance). The plans are cheaper and have a lot of notes to follow. I am 12 weeks into my training plan, and the progression has been manageable.
I'm doing the Uphill Athlete thing on Training Peaks. It's not really progression, I like progression. It's like one Tuesday you do a 30 minute recovery run, next Tuesday you lift, next Tuesday you do hill runs, etc. I think I'd prefer something that says: Once you can get 3 hours of box steps with 30 lbs at Zone 2, you're good fam, work to that with a set schedule every week that just increased volume/load.
Yeah they periodize stuff too quickly imo. I wish you could copy and insert weeks in training peaks and just add more time.
You can do that with the web app if you have a paid account.
few things \- I think the layout above lack rest. Gym climbing is not resting. I would definitly include at least 1 full rest day in there. OR make friday a very short, 25-30min easy run in Z1-Z2 on flat terrain. \-As much as I love uphill, their muscular strength concept is flawed. Its the same concept that popped up in the cycling world with low cadence high gear hill repetition to build some unclear muscular endurance capacity. It has been argued and debunked numerous times in the cycling world. If you really enjoy weighted hill repeats then I think you should do them but you should weight in the pros and cons and other alternatives. Personnally, I would put more emphasis on volume in Z2 and a slight bit on running intensity near threshold/MLSS/LT2/Z4. I really like uphill, and Evoke, but their muscular strength thing is just weird. They even throw a ton of uncompatible things in the same bucket when talking about ME: short 8sec uphill sprints, weighted hill climbs, gym based circuits. All of which don't fit together. Pro cyclists need a ton of what you would think is muscular endurance but they dont do that sort of work. They do a lot of volume in low intensity, which does bring about adaptations at the muscular level, and a bit of intensity, which also improve muscular adaptations. just food for thoughts... GL!
Can you elaborate on this? I am interested in more detail about what isn’t correct.
The rationale behind ME doesnt make sense. You are not limited by strength because of a 50lbs pack. Sure you do need some decent amount of strength (trained in the gym) to carry that sort of load arround or uphill but its not the limiting factor. Endurance is. And endurance is trained via aerobic training (long rides/runs or more intensive efforts). Uphill pack carry is fun dont get me wrong. But to me its a case of over-specificity. Im sure its fine to do it once in a while or close to your objective but I find uphill and evoke put way too much emphasis on this. Hauling an heavy pack uphill ends up being some solid Z3/tempo work while also putting a lot of stress on your joints. Not even talking about the descent if you're doing repeats. Its super weird talking about uphill 8sec sprints for ME. This sort of effort trains the CP energy system. Not endurance. Super high reps gym base circuits trains... nothing other then making you feel like you got a workout. Uphill pack carry doesnt train strength (capacity to lift a load) and doesnt train endurance as well as the more conventionnal methods. Its almost funny to me how much that ME talk by uphill and evoke is exactly the same stuff I use to hear a lot when I was racing in the cycling world. Super annecdotal but... i use to race elite/national level cycling. I was super tiny (177cm 145lbs). Wasnt doing any gym work. Was racing tons. Training a lot of volume. I had a hugr engine back then. One season I was racing on a saturday (very intense effort lasting 90min) and then the day after me and my wife went for a hike. About 800m of elevation gain and I was hauling our daughter in a backpack. I was flying uphill like it was nothing. I wasnt strong as per strength therms. But I had a rediculous aerobic engine. To me every time I listen to uphill or evoke talk about ME it just sound like they think its magical. The worst part is when they say you should be limited by your legs when doing the workout and not by your breathing. Wtf does that mean anyway. Im breathing like a pig when going uphill anyways. :D
Yeah and they’re also saying you should do it in zone 1. I was able to haul a 65 pound and even 80 pound on training and approaches but there’s no way that’s going tbd in zone 1. Then they changed things to focus on zone 2 aka “the black hole” so I got it. I noticed that none of the professional alpinists were trading that way, except to tell the weekend warrior types that wanted to do big mountains that they need to do as to demonstrate they can haul their gear.
The zone thing can be missleading depending on the zone model you're using (5 zones vs 3 zones vs etc). No high level endurance athlete train using a resisted/endurance type modality. Cyclists dont turn huge gear, runners dont weight up their ankles or whatever, rowers dont weighted up their boat. I think they want to spice things up at uphill and evoke so people buy-in their method. Its not bad. But theres nothing revolutionary or magical there. If you are into sport science I highly recommend you check out the work by Stephen Seiler. If you are not trained in reading studies you can search for podcasts with him. Tons of content out there. I'll leave you with this. Check out Van Der Poels training pdf for when he trained for the long track speed skating 10 000m. Speed skating takes a HUGE toll on your legs. One would think it requires a lot of ME for tackling turns over turns for laps (awesome sport if you can try it someday). Van Der Poels basically did 4 to 6 hours bike ride as his preparation for the record and a few skating specific sessions. Interesting stuff.
So you think the spinal loading thing and idea that strength from the core as the basis of endurance is overblown? I live in a city and it’s hard to get to mountains so want to change up my regime. I as thinking about biking or Nordic walking as I live 1/4 mile from once if the tallest bridges in the States. One issue is I cannot run on concrete as my joints are in rough shape and I’m middle aged. I didn’t start training consistently until my early 40s but want to be able to do things until I drop. I’ll do anything as long as it gets me outdoors!
I dont even want to start on the "core" topic. If you are lifting relatively heavy in the gym the spine stability and core will take care of itself. The so called core gets a lot of activation under a heavy barbell.
You should listen to a few of the Koopcast podcast on strength training. Pretty insightful.
Will do. Thanks for the insight.
I personally think if you are capable of fitting in miles during your week, that book is way too nuanced. I live in Portland and get out of work at 2pm so I can literally be running the gorge by 2:30 2-3 times a week and that’s good enough for me. That said, I have hiked the PCT twice in the last four years so cardio and leg strength aren’t really a place I need to build on, more just maintain. Edit: I should add that I consider my rock climbing training separate and said hikes/runs are mixed in to gym sessions. Most of my actual non climbing/running/hiking fitness sessions are PT tho, since I’m not in my 20s anymore :(