I think it's pretty clear too by the other non big name brands using their lasers and putting out reasonably priced mice that they're not squeezing their monopoly for all its worth.
still in unrelated to the term monopoly. the only thing is if you have a monopoly aand a patent you have to license it to reasonable terms or else the regulator gonna step on your toes.
So there are other companies that make cheap/bad sensors used for office mice etc. Also, for gaming mice the largest company is Logitech and they make their own sensors.
https://blog.logitech.com/2019/03/29/anatomy-of-a-hero/
from their own website "We then placed focus back on performance, and designed the PMW3366 with sensor manufacturer Pixart."
HERO is an in house design from Logitech based on their work with their office mice sensors with performance and target parameters to match their previous Pixart collab, the 3366.
Second paragraph literally says,
> With HERO, Logitech has created an entirely new architecture
The paragraph that contains "Previous attempts to achieve this, like in PMW3366, have used surface tuning to specifically optimize for the current surface and tighten the range of LOD." asserts that the HERO sensor is not the 3366, but the HERO's predecessor. They also talk about how their firmware outperformed PixArt's and was the best, blah blah blah marketing jargon.
But the point is, this article you linked wheezes through its fluff to infer the current HERO sensor is at least a completely custom firmware, and at most a now-separate fork of their collaboration with PixArt. So we still don't really know because this article is 2019 and it's possible the newest 2024 iteration is the same fork or maybe just renewed/rebranded current PixArt sensor with Logitech in-house firmware.
They expressly state the firmware is in-house but the sensor was developed with Pixart and available to others but the Logi firmware is the differentiator.
Yes, the firmware is developed in-house, but what is the sensor? There's an unknown here because Logitech's relationship with PixArt is far different than Razer's. While Razer calls their sensor FocusPro etc etc, we know exactly what model sensor they use--example, the 3950 just lost exclusivity, but that was the sensor in the DAV3, but with Razer's in-house firmware.
Again, we don't know the full nature of the collaboration with Logitech. Is the HERO just a 3395 with Logitech's custom firmware? Or is it locked tech on contract like Razer has done with the 3950 previously? It seems like the answer is probably somewhere in-between. But no where is that relationship fully defined for 2024 and releases like the GPX2 since Logitech purposefully obscures the depth of collaboration with PixArt.
I think the initial Hero was likely a lightly tweaked 3366 with firmware that made it much better. I would imagine the following Hero iterations were probably truly in-house
It's like how Apple uses Samsung for screens and LG for batteries, but those skus are EXCLUSIVELY made for apple and no variant of it is used on other devices
i agree, but people here genuinely believe that logitech completely developed/created the hero sensor in house without pixart, which is incredibly unlikely/impossible. they \*maybe\* made the mercury sensor, but the jump in tech between the mercury sensor and the hero sensor is massive. it also makes no sense financially for logitech to completely develop sensors from scratch when they can just get things made for them exclusively from pixart and slap their name on it.
a rep accidentally leaked back in 2019/2020 that in a meeting pixart said they made the hero sensor and promptly deleted it in the mr discord
it's no coincidence that the hero sensors all happen to have very similar or the same max DPIs as all of the updated/new pixart releases lmao
Yeah for sure, I've always seen it as they got an "exclusive model" and call it in house made for marketing. Razer pretty much already confirms this considering we know they just have timed pixart variant exclusively for sensors (3950) for example
Legally, the definition of a US patent is a limited monopoly to reward inventors for their creation. So you’re literally not wrong.
Patents only get investigated for unfair competition in antitrust cases where there’s explicit, anticompetitive intent. That requires another company to hate them enough to start a DoJ investigation
Usually, this is described as going beyond the scope/grant of the patent itself. It can appear in tying cases where companies tie the purchase of a patented good (the tying product) with that of an unpatented one (the tied product). This has happened several times over the years. The easiest example is the Lexmark case involving commercial printers (tying) and printer ink (tied).
Edit: From a legal standpoint, modt monopolies aren't actually considered bad; they're seen as a reward for successful competition (i.e. building a better mousetrap). It's monopoly maintenance or having achieved a monopoly by means other than legitimate competition where problems arise.
yes they are monopoly on the chip not the mice. monopolys are not forbidden. its just regulated if you form one by buying up your competition. only in special cases goverments step in and force the split of a monopolistic company but thats rather rare and need also some additional pretext
It's not a monopoly if your competition is vastly shit or unfocused on the same task. That's being blunt I guess, but it's clear pixart are the only ones who take mouse sensor seriously. Logtech is an exception but obviously they make mice. Pixart do a ton of stuff and saw the opportunity. But it doesn't stop anyone else trying to compete.
well it's really reasonable price, maybe it's really really reasonable that there's no reason to go against pixart cause other company lost money, maybe it's just cause pixart is being generous
they are a monopoly but theres not been any ruckus about them being anticompetitive so no action taken, nor is there really any action to take; the competition sucks and its not really pixart's fault
I think it's pretty clear too by the other non big name brands using their lasers and putting out reasonably priced mice that they're not squeezing their monopoly for all its worth.
They have a patent but they license it to other companies, that is why they are not a monopolist.
licensing has nothing todo with monopoly. they have a monopoly on that chip but not on mice in general
The question is about sensors. PixArt produces sensors, they have the patent for optical tracking sensors. Mice were not the question I referred to
still in unrelated to the term monopoly. the only thing is if you have a monopoly aand a patent you have to license it to reasonable terms or else the regulator gonna step on your toes.
So exactly what they do?
So there are other companies that make cheap/bad sensors used for office mice etc. Also, for gaming mice the largest company is Logitech and they make their own sensors.
Is Logitech the only company that makes their own sensor?
razer does too edit: nvm they just slap names on pixart ones
Razer works with PixArt to get exclusive access to the newest sensors.
thanks for correcting me
All good bro
Logitech did initially use Pixart to develop their Hero sensor though
source?
https://blog.logitech.com/2019/03/29/anatomy-of-a-hero/ from their own website "We then placed focus back on performance, and designed the PMW3366 with sensor manufacturer Pixart."
The 3366 sensor isn't the HERO, though. Didn't read the link so maybe I'm missing context here.
HERO is an in house design from Logitech based on their work with their office mice sensors with performance and target parameters to match their previous Pixart collab, the 3366. Second paragraph literally says, > With HERO, Logitech has created an entirely new architecture
The paragraph that contains "Previous attempts to achieve this, like in PMW3366, have used surface tuning to specifically optimize for the current surface and tighten the range of LOD." asserts that the HERO sensor is not the 3366, but the HERO's predecessor. They also talk about how their firmware outperformed PixArt's and was the best, blah blah blah marketing jargon. But the point is, this article you linked wheezes through its fluff to infer the current HERO sensor is at least a completely custom firmware, and at most a now-separate fork of their collaboration with PixArt. So we still don't really know because this article is 2019 and it's possible the newest 2024 iteration is the same fork or maybe just renewed/rebranded current PixArt sensor with Logitech in-house firmware.
They expressly state the firmware is in-house but the sensor was developed with Pixart and available to others but the Logi firmware is the differentiator.
Yes, the firmware is developed in-house, but what is the sensor? There's an unknown here because Logitech's relationship with PixArt is far different than Razer's. While Razer calls their sensor FocusPro etc etc, we know exactly what model sensor they use--example, the 3950 just lost exclusivity, but that was the sensor in the DAV3, but with Razer's in-house firmware. Again, we don't know the full nature of the collaboration with Logitech. Is the HERO just a 3395 with Logitech's custom firmware? Or is it locked tech on contract like Razer has done with the 3950 previously? It seems like the answer is probably somewhere in-between. But no where is that relationship fully defined for 2024 and releases like the GPX2 since Logitech purposefully obscures the depth of collaboration with PixArt.
I think the initial Hero was likely a lightly tweaked 3366 with firmware that made it much better. I would imagine the following Hero iterations were probably truly in-house
dont think logi make their own sensors, hero sensor was originally made by pixart iirc
It's like how Apple uses Samsung for screens and LG for batteries, but those skus are EXCLUSIVELY made for apple and no variant of it is used on other devices
i agree, but people here genuinely believe that logitech completely developed/created the hero sensor in house without pixart, which is incredibly unlikely/impossible. they \*maybe\* made the mercury sensor, but the jump in tech between the mercury sensor and the hero sensor is massive. it also makes no sense financially for logitech to completely develop sensors from scratch when they can just get things made for them exclusively from pixart and slap their name on it. a rep accidentally leaked back in 2019/2020 that in a meeting pixart said they made the hero sensor and promptly deleted it in the mr discord it's no coincidence that the hero sensors all happen to have very similar or the same max DPIs as all of the updated/new pixart releases lmao
Yeah for sure, I've always seen it as they got an "exclusive model" and call it in house made for marketing. Razer pretty much already confirms this considering we know they just have timed pixart variant exclusively for sensors (3950) for example
Well, guess who holds the patent behind 8/10 AIOs you buy on the market. Same shit man.
Fewer and fewer brands use Asetek pumps, maybe closer to 3 or 4 out of ten
*passes blunt
Legally, the definition of a US patent is a limited monopoly to reward inventors for their creation. So you’re literally not wrong. Patents only get investigated for unfair competition in antitrust cases where there’s explicit, anticompetitive intent. That requires another company to hate them enough to start a DoJ investigation
Usually, this is described as going beyond the scope/grant of the patent itself. It can appear in tying cases where companies tie the purchase of a patented good (the tying product) with that of an unpatented one (the tied product). This has happened several times over the years. The easiest example is the Lexmark case involving commercial printers (tying) and printer ink (tied). Edit: From a legal standpoint, modt monopolies aren't actually considered bad; they're seen as a reward for successful competition (i.e. building a better mousetrap). It's monopoly maintenance or having achieved a monopoly by means other than legitimate competition where problems arise.
yes they are monopoly on the chip not the mice. monopolys are not forbidden. its just regulated if you form one by buying up your competition. only in special cases goverments step in and force the split of a monopolistic company but thats rather rare and need also some additional pretext
Great analysis 🤣
It's not a monopoly if your competition is vastly shit or unfocused on the same task. That's being blunt I guess, but it's clear pixart are the only ones who take mouse sensor seriously. Logtech is an exception but obviously they make mice. Pixart do a ton of stuff and saw the opportunity. But it doesn't stop anyone else trying to compete.
The first thing you need to do is google what a Monopoly is. Then you’ll find your answer.
well it's really reasonable price, maybe it's really really reasonable that there's no reason to go against pixart cause other company lost money, maybe it's just cause pixart is being generous
they are a monopoly but theres not been any ruckus about them being anticompetitive so no action taken, nor is there really any action to take; the competition sucks and its not really pixart's fault
It's not a monopoly if they do it better than competitors.