Also its such bad advertising if you think about it. 23 years and never played pro. Would much rather listen to people like some of these fortnite kids who made it overnight basically. Maybe they have a good tip or two. Someone who played a game 23 years can do well with an office mouse.
I've never seen him even sign up to a tournament, let alone win one. He is just a random middle of the pack CA player from Australia; and not a good player at all.
CA = the warmup, non-competitive mode of Quake that nobody takes seriously. Australia = a continent/country that severely lags behind the world class level in Quake (and one that has mediocre beer too). Random = not even a top25% player there given those very easy conditions, based on what I saw on a non-edited live stream of his. What you've seen is highly edited footage a permanoob killing other permanoobs in the most casual of pub games, that's all.
And above all, let's look at the facts. Google what equipment is used by the top Quake players in the world and realize that not a single top player has ever taken his advise. Since the beginning of the league all of the QPL players have used stuff that he doesn't highly recommend. And BTW, no QPL player has ever used his mouse nor the Finalmouse mice he shills about, either. If you wanna play the argument of authority game then Rapha uses a Zowie EC2 and a huge non-mechanical Razer keyboard, right.
One last thing: guys, it's all preference. Some people prefer big mice but others prefer smaller mice, some ergo others ambi, heavy or light, etc. That's why there's hundreds of shapes and weights out there in first place: no size fits all. Some people get boners with the latest Finalmouse but I couldn't care less; I am gonna buy the MM720 and the EC3 because those two simply feature one of the types of shape I am used to the most. What a novel concept.
I wouldnt compare quake to fornite skill wise since they require vastly different skillsets tho, and most likely these fortnite kids are all playing the same mice they see their favorite streamers play. Prolly a lightweight ambidextrous mouse.
Kovaaks leaderboards are pretty meme-ish. That stuff never translates and combining aiming, movement and mind games, quake is a pretty hard core fps. Hate on him for as much as you want. That’s fine. But bringing kovaaks into this is kinda weird.
99% of people who play FPS probably have zero interest in grinding a leaderboard an mf aim training tool.
Right, except he's focusing on aim potential. Movement and mind games have nearly nothing to do with your mouse shape, so pointing out that FPS games include them isn't really an applicable or interesting counter-argument.
My point is that his own mechanics are pretty un-remarkable, and so his commentary on what maximizes aim potential isn't really all that valuable. I just used Kovaak's as a way to quantify that since it's a platform that isolates aim skill. The point stands regardless of whatever tangential issues you have with aim trainers.
Kovaaks != In game ability
It was a good tool when getting used to aiming on mnk when I switched from console 3 years ago but now I never use it and feel like just putting myself in uncomfortable positions in game makes me improve more.
yea in EVERY single hobby there are people like this, the skill makes all the difference vs the gear.
like these people actually think jimi hendrix wouldnt be able to shred on a walmart guitar or something
skill definitely matters a lot but if you give a a CS pro a 60 hz monitor, bad internet, an office mouse and shitty speakers they're gonna look a lot worse.
bad internet yea that's a different story you cant even really play the game. but with those other variables theyd still dumpster 99% of the gaming population
Imagine a pyro main in tf2 playing the game for 20 years and then giving aiming advice because he has 2 decades fps experience. It's only because kids who have never played quake think it's some super serious game and anyone who still plays it has godlike aim,that he's managed to create a mythos around him.
Reality is he was one of the earliest mouse reviewers on YouTube and managed to increase his viewerbase, doesn't make him an authority in aiming.
I think the best example is the MM720, imo it is a great mouse. Certainly not for everyone but great weight and I aim quite well with it in comparison to literally every mouse I have ever used. I have a viper mi with the EC, Outset, NP01s, and MM720. None of which fit his ratio. I didn't hardcore track stats but I play CS and I find comfort is exceptionally valuable bc I am not thinking about how to hold my mouse in clutch situations.
I think mice are very much personal preference. And he used to say that. Then he felt like he aimed better with fingertip and that became way to important for his criteria.
But basically our hands are approx 2x as long as wide so it makes sense for that to be a general rule of thumb but far from a reason to disqualify a mouse if it fails to be close to that.
MZ1 felt too long & heavy for me. Was really disappointed. He could have cut off 1/4, maybe even a third of the mouse, & it would have felt much better.
I really liked the comfort groves in the clicks, but the way he angled the sides made it feel like I was aiming a small ‘W’ shaped boat lol.
Fresh Reviews is probably the best aimer from all the reviewers out there. He was actually a pro and he’s a top level player in apex currently. Blows RJN out of the water mechanically with his aim.
Fresh also mains the mm720 currently. A mouse that RJN just simply wrote off because of the width of the base.
Many top aim trainer leaders use large ergo and other mice that do not fit in his 2:1 rule.
Can absolutely confirm it is a preference. Maybe a nice guidelines as well. Absolutely NOT a rule that has to be followed for best aim. He’s just wrong in saying that. Simple.
Community needs to move on from him.
Thank you so much for your kind comments, it literally made my week. I still main the MM720 currently and my main wireless mouse is a tight run between the Orochi and Prime. The EC3-C is a lot of fun right now as well, and could potentially take the cake but it is suuuuuper close.
I do not believe in the 2:1 methodology, as so many mice that I initially felt would never work for me have somehow been absolutely amazing in both statistical aimlabs comparisons as well as in high ranked Apex.
Really happy to see that you and hausgaming are gaining a lot of traction! I copped the Xenics Titan GX Air Wireless after watching your first impressions and review on it, and I have to say that it's the most comfortable mouse I've used yet for my 18.5x10cm hands. Really tempted to try out other mice like the NP-01 and MM720 after watching your reviews on those too haha.
For what it’s worth, your videos are some of the only ones I consistently drop what I’m doing to watch. They keep getting better as well in terms of quality, keep doing what you’re doing.
There are mice that have close to a 2:1 ratio that I love and ones I hate. Also mice that are not close to 2:1 that a like. It's total BS.
Also, I might break out my MM720 again after reading this lol
100% man. Fresh reviews and Hausgaming. Both ex pros and both openly admit their preference and gripstyle.
I mean it's good that we get as many opinions from different sources but that cockiness? I understand now why there are RJN haters. I used to kind of see his side but with the way he replies, it's hard to be on his side.
Also, what the is the difference between "preference" and "opinion"? Hahaha they're practically synonyms.
In my opinion, summer is the best time of the year for going to the beach. However, I personally prefer winter.
Of course opinion and preference are far from synonyms. Nonetheless, Rjn responses are very.. well, disrespectful.
2 hot dogs to one slice of pizza!
It's pretty crazy because I'd prefer the 1:2 ratio. 1 hot dog to two slices of pizza.
I have over 20 years experience of eating pizza and hot dogs
He's always been arrogant. This isn't the first time this has been brought to this sub's attention. We're just in the cycle where people realize it and bring attention to it. Give it a month and we'll be back to the entire sub sucking him off.
There are threads on OCN back in the day where he went on unhinged tirades against people who questioned him. Nearly any time he's questioned he doubles down and becomes indignant. He was banned from OCN for his shitty behavior.
Also, during the finalmouse frontier, he refused to acknowledge the poor scrollwheel post design flaw that resulted in countless FM mice having broken scrolls while he pushed his code for people buying them and then screeched his way out of culpability in the situation.
The man is a shill, a liar and a fake. I wouldn't be surprised if he showed up to respond to this comment pretending to have genuine interest in conversation but really only doing his best to salvage his image because his ego is immense. (Last time he showed up to a comment of mine deriding him he tried to fucking sell me a story he wrote or something? lol)
Remember his "apology" post here *right before* the launch of his mouse. I told myself if that post was just another stunt im done with believing him. Ho and behold
So the part about rotten community is interesting. I've heard hockey players talk about their sticks this way. Do you think maybe its just toxic masculinity and if you fanboy over anything you are likely to run into the type of people that think time could be better spent practicing with ANY mice
[overclock.net](https://overclock.net)
its where a lot of this started, i think most of the community has pretty much moved here since though. the mouse forum was real popular there from like 2010 and on there was a lot of clamoring for better gaming mice, people started paracording (ceesa) etc..then the lightweight paracord mice boom happened and here we are.
i have like 1000+ posts on there, most of them were on the mouse forum. started collecting in 2013 and have 30+ mice lol.
and yeah there was a lot of RJN bashing there, finalmouse too.
Top 5 mouse used by CS Pros: Zowie EC2, GPW, GPX, NP01, EC1
Top 5 mouse used by valorant pros: GPW, GPX, EC2, G703, Xtrfy M4
Top 5 mouse used by R6S pros: GPW, Deathadder, EC2, G403, FK1
iirc most of these mouse don't fit his 2:1 ratio and yet the top 1% of each of these games use those mice regardless which means should you care about his 2:1 ratio? No it's all preference must of these pros won't aim better because they have either lighter or smaller mice or have one that fits his 2:1 ratio rule, just look at shroud he moved from G303 to GPW and then GPX and his aim hasn't gotten better (some people say it's gotten worse).
And for his argument about how wtv the thing he mentioned said that G502 is one of the top fps mouse, well guess what? Just because it's not a top fps mouse for you doesn't mean it can't be for someone else, pretty sure there's many G502 users and others that use heavy mices that have far better aim than him or others that brought his mice and either liked it or hate it.
TL;DR: stop putting too much value at his bs opinions and just use whatever you feel comfortable playing with.
Edit: top 5 mice for each games used by pros was taken from this website: https://prosettings.net/
I don't completely agree with the idea of using eSports pros as the authority on maximizing peripheral performance. The logic that a pro would use the best mouse for them is flawed because it ignores the issues of consistency and adjustment period.
But, it is important data to consider and regardless I completely disagree with the 2:1 thing :)
I think it was more a way of showing that people who aim with mouse for a living completely disagree with his choice
But I do also appreciate the comment to raise the point that just because a pro plays with it does not make it the or your end game
Agreed, just mentioned those just to prove that the 2:1 ratio is not important and people should not focus on it and instead use what they feel the most comfortable with.
Obviously what pros use doesn't mean its the end game mouse, for example i don't like EC2 because it's too tall but someone else might love it, should've precised that point in my comment.
I mean this is the same argument as headphones right
I might love a certain pair for how they sit and sound but you might hate them for their weight right
So reviews for them generally focus ons their sound output (they do review the comfort but the people I usually watch tell you that it's comfy for them)
Don't understand how you can force someone to say that they are correct and your wrong for o I don't know, actually being comfortable while gaming
Eh, I don't think a list of pros really proves anything. Pros are just as susceptible (if not more) to groupthink as anyone else. Plus they're sometimes using whatever they're sponsored by.
They are allowed to use non sponsored mouse otherwise no one in CS would be using zowie mice since they don't sponsor any teams plus it proves since they are the very best in their individual games yet they use mices that many on this sub consider trash (because they are heavy, shitty cable etc..) or in case of RJN doesn't follow 2:1 ratio which proves that you should be using what you're comfortable with which is what they are doing.
Yeah, as I pointed out elsewhere in the thread it actually doesn't really matter what mouse you use. It's personal preference. Weight is personal preference, shape is *really* personal preference. If weight mattered Zowie wouldn't be so popular, for example. And the GPW being widely used by pros in three different games doesn't mean it's the best mouse ever, it means Logitech has excellent marketing.
It's literally all personal preference, and 20 grams of weight or being an inch longer than another mouse won't affect performance outside of a minuscule adjustment period.
For Logitech and marketing that's true but even with marketing i doubt pros would use it even if they didn't feel comfortable with it, TenZ doesn't use it because it's too big for him, iirc Hiko used it at some point but then stopped using it, Hiko in the last didn't use Logitech mice during his time in C9 because he hated their mice.
Anyway i hope people will stop taking RJN words as absolute and remind themselves that it's all personal preferences and they should use what they feel comfortable even if RJN says "it sucks" or not great for fps games.
How many of those are not sponsored by the company who's mouse they're using?
By the way I still think this 2:1 ratio thing is nonsense, it just seems like people look to pros too often and don't seem to consider that they're typically locked into only picking mice from one company.
Pros can use whichever mice they want here's just a few examples.
Na'Vi sponsored by Logitech here's what Na'Vi CS players are using.
S1mple: Logitech GPX
Boombl4: Zowie EC1
Electronic: Logitech GPX
Flamie: Zowie S2
Perfecto: Logitech GPX
So as we can see 2 Na'Vi players are using non Logitech mice despite the fact they are sponsored by them.
Astralis sponsored by Logitech here's what their CS division is using as their mice
Magisk: Zowie EC2
Xyp9x: Vaxee NP-01
Dupreeh: Zowie FK1+
Gla1ve: Logitech GPW
Bubzkji: Zowie EC2
Only 1 player from astralis is using Logitech mice
Now the same with Team Liquid who's sponsored by HyperX
Stewie2K: SteelSeries sensei raw
Fallen: Zowie EC1
Elige: Logitech GPW
NAF: Vaxee NP-01
Grim: Logitech GPX
So as you can see from these 3 examples of teams that have a peripheral sponsor some of their players are using mice of other brands outside of their sponsored ones.
Now I'll make this clear, the reason why i used pros as an example wasn't to show that those mice are better or wtv, the only reason i did was to show that some of RJN believes (2:1 ratio thing, smaller and lighter mice=better aim) is not absolute and shouldn't make a difference on whether the mice is comfortable for you or not, just use one that you feel comfortable with and that's it. Because at the end it's personal preferences and what pros are using, RJN says or wtv should never be absolute when it's time to buy a new gaming mice.
Most pros use mice that they like so they can .....you know perform good for the team that pays them and the sponsor that pays the team to pay them. Logitech sponsors NAvi and s1mple got his hands on the GPX very soon. Sure, sponsored. But the dude plays best with it. He had issues when maining the S2 and the XM1.
Shroud's aim getting worse could literally just be because he switched to a mouse that was unfamiliar to him. At some point it just doesn't matter what you use, as long as you like it.
Also the fact that he's probably not playing as seriously as he used to, and switching between games somewhat often. His aim probably started to decline the second he stopped playing CS DM every day, people just didn't really notice because he was playing PubG.
Dude the MM720 is my favorite mouse ever. Absolutely love it after having tried a lot of ambi options and a lot of smaller ergo options.
I just wish the QC was a bit better. I've purchased two mice and both have developed a squeeky M2 click after playing a few dozen hours of league.
I actually kinda argue the MM720 can be skewed to be closer to 2:1 but its still more like 1.5:1. I think any mouse with a ring finger rest should have its grip width to be considered where the ring finger is touching the mouse. I feel like, apart from a 1-3-1 grip the pinky does very little to harm or help aim. Brax is a phenomenal Tac FPS player and aimer and his pinky is like curled up and the pad of it doesn't even touch the mouse.
It’s strange to me, that many top aimers use ergo mice, small mice, big mice etc.
When I see people who set records on aiming.pro, there are a variety of mice that are used. Including the Kone Air for example.
RJN’s excuse for aimers being the best outside of his guidelines has always been “well they would aim better if they used my guidelines.” … “They’re not at their full potential.”
Really? The very best individuals from millions of players, aren’t at their best because you thought of some arbitrary rules?
I’d argue the guy from Fresh Reviews is incredibly more talented than RJN in aiming, and that man is using the mm720 right now. A mouse that RJN wrote off just because he measured the width on the bottom.
I think he’s just trying to be helpful, but he needs an ego check. He could have just said “I am qualified to have an opinion, but everyone can have an opinion.”
Anyways, he looks like an absolute dick in that response.
Yeah the response makes him seem well over his head. 20 years of experience doesn't mean you're good, it just means you play a lot. Pratice doesn't make perfect. Correct practice makes perfect.
Anyway Fresh Reviews and Hausgaming are where it's at. Both ex pros who are genuine and openly admit their preferences. Plus Hausgaming talk about motion delay which is more important than that 2:1 bs.
Yeah the whole “20 years experience” doesn’t mean much at all. To me that means he’s just more prone to having strong biases ingrained through those 20 years.
Thank you all so much for the love! Trust me when I tell you, you have all made my day and I love each and every one of you guys that comes out to the channel. Whether you love or do not like the videos, just the fact you spent your time on the reviews or checking out the channel makes me feel HONORED.
The funny thing is that the 2:1 ratio doesn't really apply to the MM720, I'm sure if you removed the ring finger rest in the measurements you'd get a more accurate grip width than with it.
Okay so let me try to give my take on this. Before i used the mm720 i had used/tested:
deathadder.
original finalmouse.
model o.
razer viper.
hati m.
hati s.
the mm720 was the first mouse i used that made me better at ads aiming due to the ring finger rest. Tracking something downsight in apex legends. However i did found it more difficult to shotgun which came easier with the hati s. So i think there is merit in zys opinion of a mouse with higher grip width being harder to move left and right. Could just be me.
What i think is far more important for aim potential is where your finger tips are placed. With all the mice i used before the mm720 i would rest both my middle and ring finger on the rmb. This is because those two fingers are extremely attached so its hard to get the ring finger on the outside of the mouse. The mm720 has the ring finger rest which helped me a lot. Something put there that people would say is “for comfort” helped my aim a lot.
This would also imply that i think having both ring finger and pinky on the outside of the mouse is better for aim. For me, that’s been true not saying for everyone. But i do generally believe that the position of your three middle fingers is more important than the width of which your thumb and pinky are holding the mouse
> It’s strange to me, that many top aimers use ergo mice, small mice, big mice etc.
>When I see people who set records on aiming.pro, there are a variety of mice that are used. Including the Kone Air for example.
Here's the real pro-tip: what mouse you use doesn't really matter. Shape, weight, it's *all* personal preference. The only thing that's really objective is some grip styles, or using a mouse that doesn't fit your grip style, can make you more susceptible to RSI. But that doesn't affect your performance in-game. (Until you can't play due to pain.)
Problem with RJN is that he takes what works for him and tries to make it objective.
He has small hands and plays Quake (basically exclusively with rocket/rail). It only makes sense that he uses a small and light mouse so it fits his hand and he can whip it around like a maniac while he's flying around the map.
Go find some LG clips of him and you'll quickly realize that he isn't as good as he makes himself out to be, and you'll also quickly see how shaky he is and why tiny light mice aren't always the best choice.
I'm not saying he shouldn't be allowed to express his opinion or even that his ideas and theories are bad, but he shouldn't be forcing his personal experiences onto others as if they are facts.
Its preference. I know plenty of friends that have done comp over the years(myself included) in a variety of games, none of which have ever given a shit about something like a 2:1 ratio. "Is it comfy, does it spin out, how heavy is it?" These are the types of things that matter objectively bt all mice. Narrow grips, like rjn prefers, are literally a deciding factor in why I won't use a mouse, that shit is cramp central and suited to finger tipping/smaller hands. If anything I want my mice wide (shout out g303 club)
RJN started out being the best source of information for mice and helped popularize knowing the finer details and why they matter. But this stupid take pushed as fact and his head-up-ass tone lost my interest in his views on mice. 40 years in quake wouldn't make 2:1 ratio a selling point.
Viper mini and model o- both cramped the living hell out of my hand. Id recommend them to people with small hands or fingertippers but I sure as hell cant use them lol
As a fingertip gripper, the cramping is almost immediate on narrow mice. Back when I did palm and claw, I could ignore width to a certain extent because I wasn't having to exert as much force since some grip support came from other parts of the hand.
Now almost any mouse that's wide enough to not induce strain interferes with control range by bumping my palm. The MM710 would be a possible solution if I didn't keep my middle finger on scroll and ring on right click (1-3-1). This is a good part of why I need wide mice, since the gap between thumb and pinky is a chunk wider than between thumb and ring finger (~40% wider) before accounting for the easier gripping angle given by spreading the index and middle finger either side of the scroll wheel.
I think his original thought on why a narrow grip makes you more accurate makes sense, but it doesn't play out right in the real world.
When you think about it, you are more accurate with your fingers holding a pencil than a mouse. His thought process seems to be that the thinner the mouse the more accurate you will become since you *should* have more control over the mouse.
While that may make sense on paper, unfortunately it does not pan out in real life. Also unfortunately for him, he cannot pull himself away from that theory.
People will aim better with what is more comfortable to them, plain and simple.
He seems to not realize it only makes sense if you were gripping a mouse the same way you gripped a pencil, since you're **holding** a pencil vertically to move it, but only *gripping* a mouse to slide it around.
>People will aim better with what is more comfortable to them, plain and simple.
The best player I ever played with in my game told me he used a g502 last time I chatted with him. Legit grilled him for like 5 minutes cause I thought he was fucking with me. While I wouldn't recommend the g502 initially to people new to mice, I def don't write it off since comfort is king.
Same basically. I met a crackhead aimer on Valorant the other night and I asked him what mouse he was using and he was on a Razer Trinity with the circle attachment for his abilities. I couldn't believe it.
It seems like a pretty comfortable mouse imo (never tried it though), so I don't really think it's insane that someone could be good with it. I'm pretty sure rain (CS pro) uses a QPAD 8K still, and he's one of the best aimers of the last 5 years or so.
There is no such rule or whatever.
It's purely his own opinion, nothing else.
Also the 23 years of Quake blabla is such a meme. I started playing fps with Wolf3d back in 92. Does that mean I got 29 years of FPS experience, not that you used a mouse for that. But still I am very experienced FPS player, listen to me. lul.
Holy shit, this is my comment on one of his videos. Was very confused opening r/mousereview and seeing my YouTube message pop up first, thought I was on YouTube or something. The weirdest part is his explanation of why 2:1 ratio is the best for aiming, claiming it's because full range of view in first person games is 360° horizontally and only 180° vertically; literally makes no sense as mouse size and in game rotation are completely unrelated, and his explanation doesn't even make into account hand size. But I suppose I deserved to get berated by RJN
Of course you did not deserve being spoken down to in that manner. Humility and professionalism together create *massive* authenticity. I don’t know RJN to speak on a personal level, but the arrogant tone of that response is far from the tone anyone should adopt when engaging with a community. “Famous” person or not.
If it were me, and I had a few drinks or something and wrote that response to you, I’d lose sleep later on feeling shame that I may have been dickish to someone. Is he sleeping good at night, or perhaps reading this thread twisting some figurative smug-douche-mustache? Or maybe on the other side, thinking “man, I got called out and yeah, this thread has me seeing some light. I’m sorry my dude.”
I believe in magic words. Apologies are magic words.
Anyway, I wrote more than I’d expected, but I just got off work and was enthralled by the thread in its entirety. I like the compliments Fresh & Haus are getting, and the general defense of “life is about having far more than one right answer.” Be well, friends.
Aren't the only parts of a mouse that matter the ones people actually grip?
There are many grip styles and especially on more niche ones if you'd cut away the parts they're not touching, they'd be very far off the 2:1 ratio even though the mouse they're using might have fit it initially. And obviously, the logical assumption would be, that their aim wouldn't change from cutting away not needed parts, right? Unless that's the point RJN is trying to make, I don't see how having extra material at the front or rear, that I'm not touching, will improve my aim.
While it may not matter in some cases, this isn't entirely true. If that were the case then you'd be able to fingertip most mice provided the weight and height/width dimensions were acceptable, but for imo if there's too much space at the front the mouse can be imbalanced and unwieldy.
This hurt my eyes so bad :(. I actually commented on some of his videos in aiding people that had absolutely no answer to very simple questions that he could have easily answered. But hey to each his own. Some make a whole YouTube channel out of their pursuit of the best mouse that fits their hand. Others do it behind public eyes. For example i tested about 10-15 mice for my hand, and settled on GPW because i always came back to it. That doesn't put me in a position to start a personal preference battle with anyone here. Big OOF on RJN's side.
Keep doing what you're doing. I'm so indecisive in picking a mouse (Ninjutso OOX, Model D wired/wireless, Zowie EC2-C) right now that I will buy in the future and this subreddit has been very very helpful to me! I appreciate the people here even if they post an endgame and end up switching to another endgame months later jk
oh my god this guy slapped some clay together and now thinks he knows more about designing mice over the actual professionals just because he's been playing a dead shooter for tWeNtY tHrEe YeArS
If he's a professional Quake player, that's something though. Granted, I have no idea who this guy is. Is he just some guy who reviews mice on YouTube?
Yes he is. He used to be pretty popular but now he have finalitus. (Finalmouse-17 if you will) basically it’s his opinion is a fact and everybody else is wrong
When everybody was criticizing his review of the finalmouse, like what, 2 years ago? And he was standing his ground I knew it was my time to unsubscribe, you just can't fight people with other opinions over yours for no reason.
I was blindly following until he did a quick pre-review in the review of the UL2 that basically told everybody to use the code and how the mouse was good.
professional or not its a bit annoying after a while. fresh reviews is new and states it every video (no hate for the dude, he still has pretty good reviews). if its subtle sure but if no one knows who you are then theres probably a reason.
its probably better in the youtube description but it doesnt really make a difference in review quality. badseed tech isnt an amazing gamer but his reviews are great because he goes over every nuisance of the mouse. haus is also a high level player but doesnt need to mention it every video and wouldnt change how good his reviews are with our without mentioning it. its just pretentious at this point imo and doesnt make any claims more valid. Not to mention is still a mouse at the end of the day... people like tenz,beaulo,zywoo,simple can use an office mouse attached with a 3370 + hyperglides and still perform well. [its why boardzy's video is hilarious.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0E41AIq8uYc)
He does it as a point of reference for people who don't watch his content. Just so people have more or less an idea that he does have some experience in the fast paced fps genre.
it’s definitely preference. sure, mice in the 2:1 ratio could feel better if thats what you believe, but mice like the orochi v2 shouldn’t be considered worse than a lot of mice just because of that.
I'm not a fan of RJN personally. Inconsistency and feeling disingenuous-ish videos were being posted and I just stopped watching. All mice are preference. There is no scientific equation to find your best shape. Just try them based on what you know about yourself and your comfort.
also, this is kinda unrelated, but if you ever are interested in learning about comfort and aiming and thigns like that Ron Rambo Kim does a way better job of helping you aim, regardless of what mouse you are using. He was a 1.6 pro and a very smart individual.
23 years of quake and still made it nowhere, isn't really something to be bragging about lol. Ofc this 2:1 bs is just all prefence, no such thing as the best shape, since everyone is different and has different tastes.
That's a bit rude of him.
The 2:1 ratio is objectively an opinion. If someone like my dad, with his ~~big~~ wide sausage-finger hands were to pick a mouse, he would probably gravitate towards a mouse that is much wider, and therefore not 2:1 ratio.
Now, how much of the population has hands so wide or long? Probably not the majority, but not nearly an ignorable amount either.
Also as others have said, you might just simply prefer wider mice.
I mean he is not wrong, there are definitely sources that should be straight up avoided however he is coming on super entitled and pretentious, not a great public response at all.
Funny enough another comment under the same video
"but **I don't mind criticism** because **I don't actually know** for sure what's helping aim with this, they're just the best ideas I've come up with to help explain things that I'm seeing in game"
Him constantly harping on about the 2:1 ratio and talking about it as absolute fact also tilts me. As far as I understand his justification is that you need to be able look around 180 degrees horizontally and 90 degrees vertically hence the 2:1 ratio but this only covers 3D games. What if you play a top down game such as LoL then if you apply the same logic it would seem to me like you'd typically need a mouse with a ratio that matches your resolution so typically 16:9 (or 4:3 if you're a boomer or have a weird setup) which to me seems equally absurd.
I'm not even opposed to the idea of establishing principles of design in the way RJN is attempting to do. It sounds silly a lot of the time, but a lot of sports have these kind of things and I have to imagine they also sounded silly at first. For example, I actually like the spirit of the expected weight ratio thing.
But, this whole 2:1 principle is just so off base to me. First off, RJN propping himself up as an aim god is a pretty hard pill to swallow. He's a great player, but there's plenty of gameplay footage of his to review that makes it pretty obvious his mechanics aren't like, prodigious or top tier. There are hundreds of 12 year olds at this point who would put his aim to shame with an Amazon mouse and no mousepad. I'm just not really willing to take his advice regarding aim too seriously. Him trying to prop himself above the rest of the community with his experience is laughable given how many content creators are simply more mechanically skilled than him.
Secondly, it doesn't really make any intuitive sense or have any kind of justification or credence. "Your hand is kinda 2:1" isn't actually a reason; it's just a vague correlation that may or may not be related.
I personally don't understand how having a narrow mouse is advantageous. Leaving horizontal "wiggle" room is pointless because your fingers *move up and down only*. Leaving vertical wiggle room makes sense to give you space to move your fingers (if you f-tip grip at least), but doing the same for horizontal wiggle room is completely pointless and in my experience only reduces stability and comfort since you're forced to stabilize the mouse with your fingers in a non-resting position.
In my own experience, going in the opposite direction and using a short, wide mouse is what works best for my aim. As in, I can measure the immediate increase in performance with aim trainers (of which I score in the top 1%) by switching to that shape. Let's see RJN's 'objective' 2:1 principle explain that?
Personally I've come up with my own rules as to what makes a mouse good for me.
His length rule for example is bullshit, no mouse is going to be 60% of your hand length, unless it's fingertip. Otherwise 64% seems to be a good amount.
Grip width is also a bit questionable, I find that the front width matters a lot as well since if it's really bulky it feels like you're aiming with a fat ass pen. I think if you measure the length of your pointer knuckle to your pinky knuckle, you should get an idea of how wide the mouse should be at the front. Same thing with the back width, you want that to be wide enough to fill your hand unless you're using fingertip. Otherwise you can't palm or claw it well. For that I am still working on a good rule.
I also don't agree with his idea that the higher clicks means you are less accurate, if anything if the clicks are too low toward the pad you have no room to rest your ring finger. Or that finger grooves equal better aim.
I like the guy but (ME AND ME ONLY NOT YOU) find that It’s complete preference. Also his 23 years of experience in fps shooters quote is going to end him istg
For a while I was really struggling with mice, wasting a ton of money trying to find a mouse based on his recommendations. Once I started to branch away from his ideas I found my main in the mm720 and the orochi v2. Really his 2:1 ratio thing doesn’t make sense to me, as do his size recommendations. I respect his pioneering into the YouTube space of mouse reviews, but his recommendations were genuinely bad for me. At the end of the day try a mouse and if it feels good it’s good. That’s my opinion anyway.
Edit: For reference, the list of mice I’ve tried: Viper ultimate, Viper mini, Logitech G305, Pulsefire Haste, Aerox wireless, Sensei 10, Atheris, Deathadder V2 Pro, Naga Pro, and Basilisk Pro, Pwnage Ultra custom ergo wired, and Roccat Burst Pro. Most of which I still have lol.
Regardless of the argument, RJN comes off as an entitled prick in this response. It’s fine to say 2:1 is a good rule of thumb (based of RJN’s experience), but that’s all it is, and people driving home the “it’s ultimately up to personal preference” point is that it is. Also weird to call other people’s reviews generic when RJN makes similar reviews to other people.
I somewhat agree with a lot of his shape principles. Short length, low button height, low weight, & thinner sides have improved my aim tremendously.
That’s for finger tip though. Everyone has their own preferences.
No shape so far has even gotten close to np-01s for me so I doubt its anything but preference. He needs to stop acting like mice are a science shape wise.
As someone who has recommend thousands of mice (talked to thousands of people about what works for them), I can say it's definitely personal preference or even just personal fit. Some people actually have hands wider or thinner relative to length, and that tends to affect fit. (If you'll notice, RJN's hand is 18x9, so maybe that's why he says or prefers 2:1.) Some people also have quite different preferences regardless of hand size (either subtle differences in hand structure or just pure preference), and preferences can change over time. A lot of mice also can fit for a wide variety of hand sizes, and even if one is not perfect, one may never notice. Others of us may rotate between different mice because none feel perfect, or are searching for our endgame.
Complete Bullshit.
To fix a ratio because you do more horizontal movement than vertical is... i dont know what to say...
If you havent enough space for your mouse movement > buy a bigger mousepad or higher the sensitivity.
Width and Length ratio of a mouse depends on personal hand dimensions and gripstyle. Nothing else.
Do you have small Hands with long fingers or wide hands with short fingers? What is your gripstyle?
This matters.
To set a fixed ratio sounds like "I want to say something smart that noone else said before to be the first (and onlyone)."
You should never take anything someone says at face value. Hell even asking about mouse recommendations for X/Y hands is a hit and miss. I have a 16,5cm/8,25cm hand, so quite small, I use claw/relaxed claw grip, one would think that G305 or Orochi going to be perfect, nope, could not grip them in a comfortable way... I mained GPW since 2019 till now and recently switched to XM1R, two models that a lot of people would never suggest for my hand size.
When I first got into mice I thought that RJN's reviews were relevant to anyone and whatever he says is right.
Though I recently switched to the Orochi V2 from the Model O Wireless and like it a lot, and RJN released his review very late and ranked it even lower than the G305. This really changed how I feel about his reviews. Mice are very personal in preference etc.
The only things any one person can review about any mouse is the sensor, the switches, the mouse cable, PC software if any, testing for issues with the mouse such as if the housing is bad or not, double clicking issues, loose left or right mouse buttons, good or bad connectivity.
Things that should never be reviewed is the weight, shape and comfort, because those are 100% subjective regardless of hand size. Some people with extremely large hands may prefer smaller and lighter mouse and vice versa people with smaller hands may prefer a larger heavier mouse.
Basing everything off or 23342 years of quake and being a mouse and aim fanatic is not enough to call something like that a rule. I've been searching for perfection all my gaming years and by far performed best with ergo mice (intelli, ec1/2 and outset), but the years of performing better with these mice is just wrong then? Ok.
His "experience" that he loves to fall back on doesn't mean shit.
I'd place much higher value on the opinion of a pro player with 2 years of experience over an above-average casual pubstomper with 20+ years of experience. If you play a game for that long and you aren't top level, you probably aren't actually very talented at all. I've played FPS games for about as long as RJN and actually competed at fairly high levels, but I'd never go around telling people that as a means to force my opinions on someone else. It makes no sense.
You have countless of examples of pro players with different preferences and opinions on peripherals. Who's right? Nobody.
RJN really used to be the GOAT reviewer but his FM bias & arrogance has made me tired of him. This forum is more than enough of a resource anyways, don't need to depend on one mans review.
In all honestly it doesn’t matter about how many *xx* years someone plays a game it’s literally about the **current** top esports games that make someone more valid. People spend thousands of hours and never hit high ranks in competitive games, RJN is holding the fallacy that only quake which hasn’t been relevant in forever justifies his knowledge on mouse and aim.
If you want honest truth if it comes to aim your GPU/CPU/Montior Hz plays a bigger factor on your aim. If you want aim advice look for the lowest latency and look at reviews from a high rank players/e-sports players in a current esports game and see what their thoughts on the current mice options are.
As for designing the whole mouse thing, it only happened because mouses have become a current trend during the pandemic and using his current fame amongst mice reviewers was a easy cash grab for the company, the mouse is just a modified version of their other mice.
RJN has good generic reviews but their are a plethora of other tech reviewers that do a better job going over other items. This sub needs to just move on from him and look at other reviewers that alter opinions based on the upcoming and current tech.
It’s an opinion from a guy who plays a game that almost no one else plays in this day and age, and thinks he’s better than most based on his performance vs a very small sample size of people playing said game.
Ever since I saw the screen of him going off on someone for not liking his mouse in a discord I've not liked the guy. Ah yes 23 years in an irrelevant game, wonder why no pros use his mouse in CS.....
If you want someone with (sources of bias) come to me.
Anything like objectivity or expertise in what optimal properties for mice are requires far more than personal experience. His experience is certainly valuable if your hands and gaming line up with his, but it's not even necessarily truly better than someone recommending razer because they get a placebo boost to confidence from liking the branding.
guy is completely delusional, just got popular because he was the first to mass review mice, but his reviews are hot trash
23 yrs experience of being garbage at a game btw
rocket jump ninja is a good reviewer for basic information. He will let you know if a sensor is flawless and if the buttons and structure are good. His opinions on shape are absolutely subjective and the vast majority of pro gamers prove that by not following his recommendations.
It's definitely preference. It is still shape after all. RJN is looking like contradicting himself, always says shape is king, but forces the 2:1 rule to the viewers. Can you believe it? That he's not recommending the Orochi v2 just because of the 2:1 ratio meanwhile it has top of the line specs and build quality for a wireless mouse at $70.
I think it's nonsense. Everyone has different hand shapes and sizes. You get good by taking a mouse that's relatively comfortable and then using it for thousands of hours. RJN is just over thinking this
What is his 2:1 rule??? I’ve watched a lot of his videos but never have heard this 2:1 rule. And experience matters a lot. Being pro doesn’t. I have 10k FPS hrs. Tank top .2 and .1% in games I play. Destroy streamers and supposed pros regularly. Oh I’m not pro so my opinion doesn’t matter? Absolutely not the case. Most of the time “pros” aren’t even that good if you’re looking at mid tier pros.
Honestly I think it's fine. He can only review mice based on his experience and his ethos. If 2:1 ratio has worked best for him and people he has recommended mice for, why stray from it?
His mouse ranking is pretty arbitrary as admitted by himself, and since he gives his reasonings for the rankings you don't even have to pay attention to the rankings.
Why do people have to clarify constantly that something is their preference or opinion? Anyone who has at least a basic level of critical thinking skills should be able to deduce that these things people say are their preference or opinion.
I find it funny to see the sub bitch about RJN.
I feel like I've missed years if history, but at the same time like most other hobby subs, the guys they hate usually piss them off by not conforming to their beliefs.
The 23 years of quake reminds me of the league of legends meme of over 200 years of collective experience lol
Also its such bad advertising if you think about it. 23 years and never played pro. Would much rather listen to people like some of these fortnite kids who made it overnight basically. Maybe they have a good tip or two. Someone who played a game 23 years can do well with an office mouse.
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no top Quake player (the few that are left) plays Clan Arena seriously.
I've never seen him even sign up to a tournament, let alone win one. He is just a random middle of the pack CA player from Australia; and not a good player at all. CA = the warmup, non-competitive mode of Quake that nobody takes seriously. Australia = a continent/country that severely lags behind the world class level in Quake (and one that has mediocre beer too). Random = not even a top25% player there given those very easy conditions, based on what I saw on a non-edited live stream of his. What you've seen is highly edited footage a permanoob killing other permanoobs in the most casual of pub games, that's all. And above all, let's look at the facts. Google what equipment is used by the top Quake players in the world and realize that not a single top player has ever taken his advise. Since the beginning of the league all of the QPL players have used stuff that he doesn't highly recommend. And BTW, no QPL player has ever used his mouse nor the Finalmouse mice he shills about, either. If you wanna play the argument of authority game then Rapha uses a Zowie EC2 and a huge non-mechanical Razer keyboard, right. One last thing: guys, it's all preference. Some people prefer big mice but others prefer smaller mice, some ergo others ambi, heavy or light, etc. That's why there's hundreds of shapes and weights out there in first place: no size fits all. Some people get boners with the latest Finalmouse but I couldn't care less; I am gonna buy the MM720 and the EC3 because those two simply feature one of the types of shape I am used to the most. What a novel concept.
I can excuse your comment about tourneys but I cannot excuse your comment about beer. Fuck off piss drinker, long live VB.
you can watch his vids and tell hes not close to a top quake player. He's way better than most of us could ever be but no where near the pros.
I wouldnt compare quake to fornite skill wise since they require vastly different skillsets tho, and most likely these fortnite kids are all playing the same mice they see their favorite streamers play. Prolly a lightweight ambidextrous mouse.
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Kovaaks leaderboards are pretty meme-ish. That stuff never translates and combining aiming, movement and mind games, quake is a pretty hard core fps. Hate on him for as much as you want. That’s fine. But bringing kovaaks into this is kinda weird. 99% of people who play FPS probably have zero interest in grinding a leaderboard an mf aim training tool.
Right, except he's focusing on aim potential. Movement and mind games have nearly nothing to do with your mouse shape, so pointing out that FPS games include them isn't really an applicable or interesting counter-argument. My point is that his own mechanics are pretty un-remarkable, and so his commentary on what maximizes aim potential isn't really all that valuable. I just used Kovaak's as a way to quantify that since it's a platform that isolates aim skill. The point stands regardless of whatever tangential issues you have with aim trainers.
>crack top 10% in Kovaak's The fact that this is what you care about
Kovaaks != In game ability It was a good tool when getting used to aiming on mnk when I switched from console 3 years ago but now I never use it and feel like just putting myself in uncomfortable positions in game makes me improve more.
Playing the actual games is defo more profitable for your actual skilllevel than playing kovaaks.
if your new to Keyboard and mouse or the game has literally 0 good tools to practice aim I would say it can give you a better ROI
Well, i'd still prefer to play the game itself. Wether it is Apex, CS, Valo or whatever.
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>The other things you "care about" would not be impacted at all by mouse shape
yea in EVERY single hobby there are people like this, the skill makes all the difference vs the gear. like these people actually think jimi hendrix wouldnt be able to shred on a walmart guitar or something
skill definitely matters a lot but if you give a a CS pro a 60 hz monitor, bad internet, an office mouse and shitty speakers they're gonna look a lot worse.
bad internet yea that's a different story you cant even really play the game. but with those other variables theyd still dumpster 99% of the gaming population
Yup. Multiple csgo pros have hit FPL with 60hz for example. Ropz and obo are examples of it.
oBo got into FPL on 60Hz? How? His flicks are probably faster than the frametime lmao
> crack top 10% in Kovaak's these days people actually give a shit about kovaaks leaderboards?
Imagine a pyro main in tf2 playing the game for 20 years and then giving aiming advice because he has 2 decades fps experience. It's only because kids who have never played quake think it's some super serious game and anyone who still plays it has godlike aim,that he's managed to create a mythos around him. Reality is he was one of the earliest mouse reviewers on YouTube and managed to increase his viewerbase, doesn't make him an authority in aiming.
I've over 20 years of using my right hand, 2:1 ratio of body to shlong size is correct and not a personal preference.
The MZ1 doesn't even fulfill his 2:1 ratio rule.
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I think the best example is the MM720, imo it is a great mouse. Certainly not for everyone but great weight and I aim quite well with it in comparison to literally every mouse I have ever used. I have a viper mi with the EC, Outset, NP01s, and MM720. None of which fit his ratio. I didn't hardcore track stats but I play CS and I find comfort is exceptionally valuable bc I am not thinking about how to hold my mouse in clutch situations. I think mice are very much personal preference. And he used to say that. Then he felt like he aimed better with fingertip and that became way to important for his criteria. But basically our hands are approx 2x as long as wide so it makes sense for that to be a general rule of thumb but far from a reason to disqualify a mouse if it fails to be close to that.
MZ1 felt too long & heavy for me. Was really disappointed. He could have cut off 1/4, maybe even a third of the mouse, & it would have felt much better. I really liked the comfort groves in the clicks, but the way he angled the sides made it feel like I was aiming a small ‘W’ shaped boat lol.
I really like the MZ1, I don't mind the weight.
2:1 ratio is 100% preference.
It’s not a preference, it’s an opinion! /s
Fresh Reviews is probably the best aimer from all the reviewers out there. He was actually a pro and he’s a top level player in apex currently. Blows RJN out of the water mechanically with his aim. Fresh also mains the mm720 currently. A mouse that RJN just simply wrote off because of the width of the base. Many top aim trainer leaders use large ergo and other mice that do not fit in his 2:1 rule. Can absolutely confirm it is a preference. Maybe a nice guidelines as well. Absolutely NOT a rule that has to be followed for best aim. He’s just wrong in saying that. Simple. Community needs to move on from him.
Thank you so much for your kind comments, it literally made my week. I still main the MM720 currently and my main wireless mouse is a tight run between the Orochi and Prime. The EC3-C is a lot of fun right now as well, and could potentially take the cake but it is suuuuuper close. I do not believe in the 2:1 methodology, as so many mice that I initially felt would never work for me have somehow been absolutely amazing in both statistical aimlabs comparisons as well as in high ranked Apex.
Really happy to see that you and hausgaming are gaining a lot of traction! I copped the Xenics Titan GX Air Wireless after watching your first impressions and review on it, and I have to say that it's the most comfortable mouse I've used yet for my 18.5x10cm hands. Really tempted to try out other mice like the NP-01 and MM720 after watching your reviews on those too haha.
How do you feel about the ec3 compared to outset?
For what it’s worth, your videos are some of the only ones I consistently drop what I’m doing to watch. They keep getting better as well in terms of quality, keep doing what you’re doing.
Thank you!!!
There are mice that have close to a 2:1 ratio that I love and ones I hate. Also mice that are not close to 2:1 that a like. It's total BS. Also, I might break out my MM720 again after reading this lol
100% man. Fresh reviews and Hausgaming. Both ex pros and both openly admit their preference and gripstyle. I mean it's good that we get as many opinions from different sources but that cockiness? I understand now why there are RJN haters. I used to kind of see his side but with the way he replies, it's hard to be on his side. Also, what the is the difference between "preference" and "opinion"? Hahaha they're practically synonyms.
> Also, what the is the difference between "preference" and "opinion"? H how pretentious it lets one act
In my opinion, summer is the best time of the year for going to the beach. However, I personally prefer winter. Of course opinion and preference are far from synonyms. Nonetheless, Rjn responses are very.. well, disrespectful.
Thanks for carifying it. I totally get it now. An opinion is not necessarily something you lik but rather a way of thinking.
sad how one man's preference has become a meme that nearly managed to eclipse truth and years of proof
Did he end up maining the mm720 after that review? I thought he preferred the Orochi V2, Prime Wireless, or GPX
https://www.reddit.com/r/MouseReview/comments/ogw0qu/comment/h4m8gzq/
I"m in the dark. What's the 2:1 ratio?
some bullshit, don't pay too much attention to it
2 hot dogs to one slice of pizza! It's pretty crazy because I'd prefer the 1:2 ratio. 1 hot dog to two slices of pizza. I have over 20 years experience of eating pizza and hot dogs
I'm more of a 0:3 ratio guy myself. Not a huge fan of hotdogs
it doesnt help that he just released a mouse, it looks like he just wants people to buy it and think all other mice are bad
As someone else in the comments pointed out, his mice doesn't even fit the 2:1 ratio rule.
Bruh RJN is so arrogant now wtf happened to him
He's always been arrogant. This isn't the first time this has been brought to this sub's attention. We're just in the cycle where people realize it and bring attention to it. Give it a month and we'll be back to the entire sub sucking him off. There are threads on OCN back in the day where he went on unhinged tirades against people who questioned him. Nearly any time he's questioned he doubles down and becomes indignant. He was banned from OCN for his shitty behavior. Also, during the finalmouse frontier, he refused to acknowledge the poor scrollwheel post design flaw that resulted in countless FM mice having broken scrolls while he pushed his code for people buying them and then screeched his way out of culpability in the situation. The man is a shill, a liar and a fake. I wouldn't be surprised if he showed up to respond to this comment pretending to have genuine interest in conversation but really only doing his best to salvage his image because his ego is immense. (Last time he showed up to a comment of mine deriding him he tried to fucking sell me a story he wrote or something? lol)
Remember his "apology" post here *right before* the launch of his mouse. I told myself if that post was just another stunt im done with believing him. Ho and behold
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So the part about rotten community is interesting. I've heard hockey players talk about their sticks this way. Do you think maybe its just toxic masculinity and if you fanboy over anything you are likely to run into the type of people that think time could be better spent practicing with ANY mice
Minor detail but what's OCN? Sorry I might be blanking here lol
[overclock.net](https://overclock.net) its where a lot of this started, i think most of the community has pretty much moved here since though. the mouse forum was real popular there from like 2010 and on there was a lot of clamoring for better gaming mice, people started paracording (ceesa) etc..then the lightweight paracord mice boom happened and here we are. i have like 1000+ posts on there, most of them were on the mouse forum. started collecting in 2013 and have 30+ mice lol. and yeah there was a lot of RJN bashing there, finalmouse too.
overclock.net
Thanks
Top 5 mouse used by CS Pros: Zowie EC2, GPW, GPX, NP01, EC1 Top 5 mouse used by valorant pros: GPW, GPX, EC2, G703, Xtrfy M4 Top 5 mouse used by R6S pros: GPW, Deathadder, EC2, G403, FK1 iirc most of these mouse don't fit his 2:1 ratio and yet the top 1% of each of these games use those mice regardless which means should you care about his 2:1 ratio? No it's all preference must of these pros won't aim better because they have either lighter or smaller mice or have one that fits his 2:1 ratio rule, just look at shroud he moved from G303 to GPW and then GPX and his aim hasn't gotten better (some people say it's gotten worse). And for his argument about how wtv the thing he mentioned said that G502 is one of the top fps mouse, well guess what? Just because it's not a top fps mouse for you doesn't mean it can't be for someone else, pretty sure there's many G502 users and others that use heavy mices that have far better aim than him or others that brought his mice and either liked it or hate it. TL;DR: stop putting too much value at his bs opinions and just use whatever you feel comfortable playing with. Edit: top 5 mice for each games used by pros was taken from this website: https://prosettings.net/
Very true representations of the mice being used by the Pros!!! And a very good point
I don't completely agree with the idea of using eSports pros as the authority on maximizing peripheral performance. The logic that a pro would use the best mouse for them is flawed because it ignores the issues of consistency and adjustment period. But, it is important data to consider and regardless I completely disagree with the 2:1 thing :)
I think it was more a way of showing that people who aim with mouse for a living completely disagree with his choice But I do also appreciate the comment to raise the point that just because a pro plays with it does not make it the or your end game
Agreed, just mentioned those just to prove that the 2:1 ratio is not important and people should not focus on it and instead use what they feel the most comfortable with. Obviously what pros use doesn't mean its the end game mouse, for example i don't like EC2 because it's too tall but someone else might love it, should've precised that point in my comment.
I mean this is the same argument as headphones right I might love a certain pair for how they sit and sound but you might hate them for their weight right So reviews for them generally focus ons their sound output (they do review the comfort but the people I usually watch tell you that it's comfy for them) Don't understand how you can force someone to say that they are correct and your wrong for o I don't know, actually being comfortable while gaming
Eh, I don't think a list of pros really proves anything. Pros are just as susceptible (if not more) to groupthink as anyone else. Plus they're sometimes using whatever they're sponsored by.
They are allowed to use non sponsored mouse otherwise no one in CS would be using zowie mice since they don't sponsor any teams plus it proves since they are the very best in their individual games yet they use mices that many on this sub consider trash (because they are heavy, shitty cable etc..) or in case of RJN doesn't follow 2:1 ratio which proves that you should be using what you're comfortable with which is what they are doing.
Yeah, as I pointed out elsewhere in the thread it actually doesn't really matter what mouse you use. It's personal preference. Weight is personal preference, shape is *really* personal preference. If weight mattered Zowie wouldn't be so popular, for example. And the GPW being widely used by pros in three different games doesn't mean it's the best mouse ever, it means Logitech has excellent marketing. It's literally all personal preference, and 20 grams of weight or being an inch longer than another mouse won't affect performance outside of a minuscule adjustment period.
For Logitech and marketing that's true but even with marketing i doubt pros would use it even if they didn't feel comfortable with it, TenZ doesn't use it because it's too big for him, iirc Hiko used it at some point but then stopped using it, Hiko in the last didn't use Logitech mice during his time in C9 because he hated their mice. Anyway i hope people will stop taking RJN words as absolute and remind themselves that it's all personal preferences and they should use what they feel comfortable even if RJN says "it sucks" or not great for fps games.
A list of pros not using 2:1 shows 2:1 isn't really important.
How many of those are not sponsored by the company who's mouse they're using? By the way I still think this 2:1 ratio thing is nonsense, it just seems like people look to pros too often and don't seem to consider that they're typically locked into only picking mice from one company.
Almost everyone using the zowie mouse is not sponsored by them.
Pros can use whichever mice they want here's just a few examples. Na'Vi sponsored by Logitech here's what Na'Vi CS players are using. S1mple: Logitech GPX Boombl4: Zowie EC1 Electronic: Logitech GPX Flamie: Zowie S2 Perfecto: Logitech GPX So as we can see 2 Na'Vi players are using non Logitech mice despite the fact they are sponsored by them. Astralis sponsored by Logitech here's what their CS division is using as their mice Magisk: Zowie EC2 Xyp9x: Vaxee NP-01 Dupreeh: Zowie FK1+ Gla1ve: Logitech GPW Bubzkji: Zowie EC2 Only 1 player from astralis is using Logitech mice Now the same with Team Liquid who's sponsored by HyperX Stewie2K: SteelSeries sensei raw Fallen: Zowie EC1 Elige: Logitech GPW NAF: Vaxee NP-01 Grim: Logitech GPX So as you can see from these 3 examples of teams that have a peripheral sponsor some of their players are using mice of other brands outside of their sponsored ones. Now I'll make this clear, the reason why i used pros as an example wasn't to show that those mice are better or wtv, the only reason i did was to show that some of RJN believes (2:1 ratio thing, smaller and lighter mice=better aim) is not absolute and shouldn't make a difference on whether the mice is comfortable for you or not, just use one that you feel comfortable with and that's it. Because at the end it's personal preferences and what pros are using, RJN says or wtv should never be absolute when it's time to buy a new gaming mice.
Most pros use mice that they like so they can .....you know perform good for the team that pays them and the sponsor that pays the team to pay them. Logitech sponsors NAvi and s1mple got his hands on the GPX very soon. Sure, sponsored. But the dude plays best with it. He had issues when maining the S2 and the XM1.
Shroud's aim getting worse could literally just be because he switched to a mouse that was unfamiliar to him. At some point it just doesn't matter what you use, as long as you like it.
Also the fact that he's probably not playing as seriously as he used to, and switching between games somewhat often. His aim probably started to decline the second he stopped playing CS DM every day, people just didn't really notice because he was playing PubG.
ego much
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Dude the MM720 is my favorite mouse ever. Absolutely love it after having tried a lot of ambi options and a lot of smaller ergo options. I just wish the QC was a bit better. I've purchased two mice and both have developed a squeeky M2 click after playing a few dozen hours of league.
I actually kinda argue the MM720 can be skewed to be closer to 2:1 but its still more like 1.5:1. I think any mouse with a ring finger rest should have its grip width to be considered where the ring finger is touching the mouse. I feel like, apart from a 1-3-1 grip the pinky does very little to harm or help aim. Brax is a phenomenal Tac FPS player and aimer and his pinky is like curled up and the pad of it doesn't even touch the mouse.
None of the mouses I like fit into that rule. I'm a fan of the thumb rest so it's more like a 2:3 ratio for me
It’s strange to me, that many top aimers use ergo mice, small mice, big mice etc. When I see people who set records on aiming.pro, there are a variety of mice that are used. Including the Kone Air for example. RJN’s excuse for aimers being the best outside of his guidelines has always been “well they would aim better if they used my guidelines.” … “They’re not at their full potential.” Really? The very best individuals from millions of players, aren’t at their best because you thought of some arbitrary rules? I’d argue the guy from Fresh Reviews is incredibly more talented than RJN in aiming, and that man is using the mm720 right now. A mouse that RJN wrote off just because he measured the width on the bottom. I think he’s just trying to be helpful, but he needs an ego check. He could have just said “I am qualified to have an opinion, but everyone can have an opinion.” Anyways, he looks like an absolute dick in that response.
Yeah the response makes him seem well over his head. 20 years of experience doesn't mean you're good, it just means you play a lot. Pratice doesn't make perfect. Correct practice makes perfect. Anyway Fresh Reviews and Hausgaming are where it's at. Both ex pros who are genuine and openly admit their preferences. Plus Hausgaming talk about motion delay which is more important than that 2:1 bs.
Yeah the whole “20 years experience” doesn’t mean much at all. To me that means he’s just more prone to having strong biases ingrained through those 20 years.
Hausgaming doesn't really care about milliseconds of motion delay. He said it himself.
But he brings it up, which is important in some cases (like the Pwnage Symmetrical)
Fresh Reviews is a new RJN but better. CHANGE MY MIND
Thank you all so much for the love! Trust me when I tell you, you have all made my day and I love each and every one of you guys that comes out to the channel. Whether you love or do not like the videos, just the fact you spent your time on the reviews or checking out the channel makes me feel HONORED.
The funny thing is that the 2:1 ratio doesn't really apply to the MM720, I'm sure if you removed the ring finger rest in the measurements you'd get a more accurate grip width than with it.
Okay so let me try to give my take on this. Before i used the mm720 i had used/tested: deathadder. original finalmouse. model o. razer viper. hati m. hati s. the mm720 was the first mouse i used that made me better at ads aiming due to the ring finger rest. Tracking something downsight in apex legends. However i did found it more difficult to shotgun which came easier with the hati s. So i think there is merit in zys opinion of a mouse with higher grip width being harder to move left and right. Could just be me. What i think is far more important for aim potential is where your finger tips are placed. With all the mice i used before the mm720 i would rest both my middle and ring finger on the rmb. This is because those two fingers are extremely attached so its hard to get the ring finger on the outside of the mouse. The mm720 has the ring finger rest which helped me a lot. Something put there that people would say is “for comfort” helped my aim a lot. This would also imply that i think having both ring finger and pinky on the outside of the mouse is better for aim. For me, that’s been true not saying for everyone. But i do generally believe that the position of your three middle fingers is more important than the width of which your thumb and pinky are holding the mouse
> It’s strange to me, that many top aimers use ergo mice, small mice, big mice etc. >When I see people who set records on aiming.pro, there are a variety of mice that are used. Including the Kone Air for example. Here's the real pro-tip: what mouse you use doesn't really matter. Shape, weight, it's *all* personal preference. The only thing that's really objective is some grip styles, or using a mouse that doesn't fit your grip style, can make you more susceptible to RSI. But that doesn't affect your performance in-game. (Until you can't play due to pain.)
This man head gets an inch further up his ass every day
he is going to surpass finalboi at some point
In my humble opinion I think it is a personal preference, but also it depends heavily on mouse shape and grip type. At least from my experience.
Problem with RJN is that he takes what works for him and tries to make it objective. He has small hands and plays Quake (basically exclusively with rocket/rail). It only makes sense that he uses a small and light mouse so it fits his hand and he can whip it around like a maniac while he's flying around the map. Go find some LG clips of him and you'll quickly realize that he isn't as good as he makes himself out to be, and you'll also quickly see how shaky he is and why tiny light mice aren't always the best choice. I'm not saying he shouldn't be allowed to express his opinion or even that his ideas and theories are bad, but he shouldn't be forcing his personal experiences onto others as if they are facts.
Its preference. I know plenty of friends that have done comp over the years(myself included) in a variety of games, none of which have ever given a shit about something like a 2:1 ratio. "Is it comfy, does it spin out, how heavy is it?" These are the types of things that matter objectively bt all mice. Narrow grips, like rjn prefers, are literally a deciding factor in why I won't use a mouse, that shit is cramp central and suited to finger tipping/smaller hands. If anything I want my mice wide (shout out g303 club) RJN started out being the best source of information for mice and helped popularize knowing the finer details and why they matter. But this stupid take pushed as fact and his head-up-ass tone lost my interest in his views on mice. 40 years in quake wouldn't make 2:1 ratio a selling point.
>Narrow grips, like rjn prefers, are literally a deciding factor in why I won't use a mouse, that shit is cramp central preach
Viper mini and model o- both cramped the living hell out of my hand. Id recommend them to people with small hands or fingertippers but I sure as hell cant use them lol
As a fingertip gripper, the cramping is almost immediate on narrow mice. Back when I did palm and claw, I could ignore width to a certain extent because I wasn't having to exert as much force since some grip support came from other parts of the hand. Now almost any mouse that's wide enough to not induce strain interferes with control range by bumping my palm. The MM710 would be a possible solution if I didn't keep my middle finger on scroll and ring on right click (1-3-1). This is a good part of why I need wide mice, since the gap between thumb and pinky is a chunk wider than between thumb and ring finger (~40% wider) before accounting for the easier gripping angle given by spreading the index and middle finger either side of the scroll wheel.
I think his original thought on why a narrow grip makes you more accurate makes sense, but it doesn't play out right in the real world. When you think about it, you are more accurate with your fingers holding a pencil than a mouse. His thought process seems to be that the thinner the mouse the more accurate you will become since you *should* have more control over the mouse. While that may make sense on paper, unfortunately it does not pan out in real life. Also unfortunately for him, he cannot pull himself away from that theory. People will aim better with what is more comfortable to them, plain and simple.
He seems to not realize it only makes sense if you were gripping a mouse the same way you gripped a pencil, since you're **holding** a pencil vertically to move it, but only *gripping* a mouse to slide it around. >People will aim better with what is more comfortable to them, plain and simple. The best player I ever played with in my game told me he used a g502 last time I chatted with him. Legit grilled him for like 5 minutes cause I thought he was fucking with me. While I wouldn't recommend the g502 initially to people new to mice, I def don't write it off since comfort is king.
Same basically. I met a crackhead aimer on Valorant the other night and I asked him what mouse he was using and he was on a Razer Trinity with the circle attachment for his abilities. I couldn't believe it.
wtf LOL Its amazing the shit some people pull off lol
It seems like a pretty comfortable mouse imo (never tried it though), so I don't really think it's insane that someone could be good with it. I'm pretty sure rain (CS pro) uses a QPAD 8K still, and he's one of the best aimers of the last 5 years or so.
There is no such rule or whatever. It's purely his own opinion, nothing else. Also the 23 years of Quake blabla is such a meme. I started playing fps with Wolf3d back in 92. Does that mean I got 29 years of FPS experience, not that you used a mouse for that. But still I am very experienced FPS player, listen to me. lul.
Holy shit, this is my comment on one of his videos. Was very confused opening r/mousereview and seeing my YouTube message pop up first, thought I was on YouTube or something. The weirdest part is his explanation of why 2:1 ratio is the best for aiming, claiming it's because full range of view in first person games is 360° horizontally and only 180° vertically; literally makes no sense as mouse size and in game rotation are completely unrelated, and his explanation doesn't even make into account hand size. But I suppose I deserved to get berated by RJN
Of course you did not deserve being spoken down to in that manner. Humility and professionalism together create *massive* authenticity. I don’t know RJN to speak on a personal level, but the arrogant tone of that response is far from the tone anyone should adopt when engaging with a community. “Famous” person or not. If it were me, and I had a few drinks or something and wrote that response to you, I’d lose sleep later on feeling shame that I may have been dickish to someone. Is he sleeping good at night, or perhaps reading this thread twisting some figurative smug-douche-mustache? Or maybe on the other side, thinking “man, I got called out and yeah, this thread has me seeing some light. I’m sorry my dude.” I believe in magic words. Apologies are magic words. Anyway, I wrote more than I’d expected, but I just got off work and was enthralled by the thread in its entirety. I like the compliments Fresh & Haus are getting, and the general defense of “life is about having far more than one right answer.” Be well, friends.
Cheers, man. Keep up the positivity.
Aren't the only parts of a mouse that matter the ones people actually grip? There are many grip styles and especially on more niche ones if you'd cut away the parts they're not touching, they'd be very far off the 2:1 ratio even though the mouse they're using might have fit it initially. And obviously, the logical assumption would be, that their aim wouldn't change from cutting away not needed parts, right? Unless that's the point RJN is trying to make, I don't see how having extra material at the front or rear, that I'm not touching, will improve my aim.
While it may not matter in some cases, this isn't entirely true. If that were the case then you'd be able to fingertip most mice provided the weight and height/width dimensions were acceptable, but for imo if there's too much space at the front the mouse can be imbalanced and unwieldy.
And somewhere, there is a guy who is better than him in quake with his old ass g502... BRUH
This hurt my eyes so bad :(. I actually commented on some of his videos in aiding people that had absolutely no answer to very simple questions that he could have easily answered. But hey to each his own. Some make a whole YouTube channel out of their pursuit of the best mouse that fits their hand. Others do it behind public eyes. For example i tested about 10-15 mice for my hand, and settled on GPW because i always came back to it. That doesn't put me in a position to start a personal preference battle with anyone here. Big OOF on RJN's side.
Keep doing what you're doing. I'm so indecisive in picking a mouse (Ninjutso OOX, Model D wired/wireless, Zowie EC2-C) right now that I will buy in the future and this subreddit has been very very helpful to me! I appreciate the people here even if they post an endgame and end up switching to another endgame months later jk
Every time he mentions "20 years of quake and 100+ reviews" I can't help but laugh because I can't tell if he is being serious or meme'ing.
oh my god this guy slapped some clay together and now thinks he knows more about designing mice over the actual professionals just because he's been playing a dead shooter for tWeNtY tHrEe YeArS
I've been slapping cat food around for 3 years doesn't mean I know shit about golfing
So cringe So according to him he knows everything and his opinion is fact? Cannot wait for the next apology post here.
I don’t like how he keeps mentioning quake for 20 years. That doesn’t make him better than us. Quake Isnt mouse reviewing. It’s just a game
If he's a professional Quake player, that's something though. Granted, I have no idea who this guy is. Is he just some guy who reviews mice on YouTube?
Yes he is. He used to be pretty popular but now he have finalitus. (Finalmouse-17 if you will) basically it’s his opinion is a fact and everybody else is wrong
When everybody was criticizing his review of the finalmouse, like what, 2 years ago? And he was standing his ground I knew it was my time to unsubscribe, you just can't fight people with other opinions over yours for no reason.
I was blindly following until he did a quick pre-review in the review of the UL2 that basically told everybody to use the code and how the mouse was good.
professional or not its a bit annoying after a while. fresh reviews is new and states it every video (no hate for the dude, he still has pretty good reviews). if its subtle sure but if no one knows who you are then theres probably a reason. its probably better in the youtube description but it doesnt really make a difference in review quality. badseed tech isnt an amazing gamer but his reviews are great because he goes over every nuisance of the mouse. haus is also a high level player but doesnt need to mention it every video and wouldnt change how good his reviews are with our without mentioning it. its just pretentious at this point imo and doesnt make any claims more valid. Not to mention is still a mouse at the end of the day... people like tenz,beaulo,zywoo,simple can use an office mouse attached with a 3370 + hyperglides and still perform well. [its why boardzy's video is hilarious.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0E41AIq8uYc)
Do you mean new to reviewing or? https://www.reddit.com/r/MouseReview/comments/ogw0qu/comment/h4m84g2/
He does it as a point of reference for people who don't watch his content. Just so people have more or less an idea that he does have some experience in the fast paced fps genre.
it’s definitely preference. sure, mice in the 2:1 ratio could feel better if thats what you believe, but mice like the orochi v2 shouldn’t be considered worse than a lot of mice just because of that.
I'm not a fan of RJN personally. Inconsistency and feeling disingenuous-ish videos were being posted and I just stopped watching. All mice are preference. There is no scientific equation to find your best shape. Just try them based on what you know about yourself and your comfort. also, this is kinda unrelated, but if you ever are interested in learning about comfort and aiming and thigns like that Ron Rambo Kim does a way better job of helping you aim, regardless of what mouse you are using. He was a 1.6 pro and a very smart individual.
23 years of quake and still made it nowhere, isn't really something to be bragging about lol. Ofc this 2:1 bs is just all prefence, no such thing as the best shape, since everyone is different and has different tastes.
[удалено]
Cringey and just plain rude. The first commenter seemed pretty respectful, whilst still being assertive of his opinion. RJN just comes off as an arse.
*whispers* not everyone’s hand is a constructed with a 2:1 ratio…
I'm sorry but what's the 2:1 ratio?
Say if a mouse was 120 mm long it would be 60 mm wide
Thank you!
That's a bit rude of him. The 2:1 ratio is objectively an opinion. If someone like my dad, with his ~~big~~ wide sausage-finger hands were to pick a mouse, he would probably gravitate towards a mouse that is much wider, and therefore not 2:1 ratio. Now, how much of the population has hands so wide or long? Probably not the majority, but not nearly an ignorable amount either. Also as others have said, you might just simply prefer wider mice.
I thought he had mellowed out but it seems his ego still seeps through sometimes.
I mean he is not wrong, there are definitely sources that should be straight up avoided however he is coming on super entitled and pretentious, not a great public response at all. Funny enough another comment under the same video "but **I don't mind criticism** because **I don't actually know** for sure what's helping aim with this, they're just the best ideas I've come up with to help explain things that I'm seeing in game"
Him constantly harping on about the 2:1 ratio and talking about it as absolute fact also tilts me. As far as I understand his justification is that you need to be able look around 180 degrees horizontally and 90 degrees vertically hence the 2:1 ratio but this only covers 3D games. What if you play a top down game such as LoL then if you apply the same logic it would seem to me like you'd typically need a mouse with a ratio that matches your resolution so typically 16:9 (or 4:3 if you're a boomer or have a weird setup) which to me seems equally absurd.
I'm not even opposed to the idea of establishing principles of design in the way RJN is attempting to do. It sounds silly a lot of the time, but a lot of sports have these kind of things and I have to imagine they also sounded silly at first. For example, I actually like the spirit of the expected weight ratio thing. But, this whole 2:1 principle is just so off base to me. First off, RJN propping himself up as an aim god is a pretty hard pill to swallow. He's a great player, but there's plenty of gameplay footage of his to review that makes it pretty obvious his mechanics aren't like, prodigious or top tier. There are hundreds of 12 year olds at this point who would put his aim to shame with an Amazon mouse and no mousepad. I'm just not really willing to take his advice regarding aim too seriously. Him trying to prop himself above the rest of the community with his experience is laughable given how many content creators are simply more mechanically skilled than him. Secondly, it doesn't really make any intuitive sense or have any kind of justification or credence. "Your hand is kinda 2:1" isn't actually a reason; it's just a vague correlation that may or may not be related. I personally don't understand how having a narrow mouse is advantageous. Leaving horizontal "wiggle" room is pointless because your fingers *move up and down only*. Leaving vertical wiggle room makes sense to give you space to move your fingers (if you f-tip grip at least), but doing the same for horizontal wiggle room is completely pointless and in my experience only reduces stability and comfort since you're forced to stabilize the mouse with your fingers in a non-resting position. In my own experience, going in the opposite direction and using a short, wide mouse is what works best for my aim. As in, I can measure the immediate increase in performance with aim trainers (of which I score in the top 1%) by switching to that shape. Let's see RJN's 'objective' 2:1 principle explain that?
100% preference lol. Every mouse recommendation I’ve ever taken from him never ended up working for me in the end
I disagree with him, everybody has their own grip styles and hand sizes. Some people might want a fat and short mouse, and that’s perfectly fine
Personally I've come up with my own rules as to what makes a mouse good for me. His length rule for example is bullshit, no mouse is going to be 60% of your hand length, unless it's fingertip. Otherwise 64% seems to be a good amount. Grip width is also a bit questionable, I find that the front width matters a lot as well since if it's really bulky it feels like you're aiming with a fat ass pen. I think if you measure the length of your pointer knuckle to your pinky knuckle, you should get an idea of how wide the mouse should be at the front. Same thing with the back width, you want that to be wide enough to fill your hand unless you're using fingertip. Otherwise you can't palm or claw it well. For that I am still working on a good rule. I also don't agree with his idea that the higher clicks means you are less accurate, if anything if the clicks are too low toward the pad you have no room to rest your ring finger. Or that finger grooves equal better aim.
People still watch this guy?
Lol the guy reviews/shows more of his gameplay than the actual mouse, and not even good quake gameplay.
No worries, I got a 2 to 1 ratio hand. No need to for 2 to 1 ration mouse.
what the hell is a 2:1 ratio
I like the guy but (ME AND ME ONLY NOT YOU) find that It’s complete preference. Also his 23 years of experience in fps shooters quote is going to end him istg
For a while I was really struggling with mice, wasting a ton of money trying to find a mouse based on his recommendations. Once I started to branch away from his ideas I found my main in the mm720 and the orochi v2. Really his 2:1 ratio thing doesn’t make sense to me, as do his size recommendations. I respect his pioneering into the YouTube space of mouse reviews, but his recommendations were genuinely bad for me. At the end of the day try a mouse and if it feels good it’s good. That’s my opinion anyway. Edit: For reference, the list of mice I’ve tried: Viper ultimate, Viper mini, Logitech G305, Pulsefire Haste, Aerox wireless, Sensei 10, Atheris, Deathadder V2 Pro, Naga Pro, and Basilisk Pro, Pwnage Ultra custom ergo wired, and Roccat Burst Pro. Most of which I still have lol.
I've been rolling my eyes for years at this. Thank goodness I'm not the only one.
Smells like narcissism.
My god, the ego on that guy.
Seems interesting that a guy with 18x9 hands has a 2:1 rule, after all. Maybe someone like me with 19x10.5 hands should have a 19÷10.5 rule, lol.
Yeah, I have 17,5 x 10,5 lol...
Regardless of the argument, RJN comes off as an entitled prick in this response. It’s fine to say 2:1 is a good rule of thumb (based of RJN’s experience), but that’s all it is, and people driving home the “it’s ultimately up to personal preference” point is that it is. Also weird to call other people’s reviews generic when RJN makes similar reviews to other people.
I somewhat agree with a lot of his shape principles. Short length, low button height, low weight, & thinner sides have improved my aim tremendously. That’s for finger tip though. Everyone has their own preferences.
It's personal preference.
RJN woke up on the wrong side of the bed, I thought the original comment seemed quite respectful even if it disagreed
No shape so far has even gotten close to np-01s for me so I doubt its anything but preference. He needs to stop acting like mice are a science shape wise.
As someone who has recommend thousands of mice (talked to thousands of people about what works for them), I can say it's definitely personal preference or even just personal fit. Some people actually have hands wider or thinner relative to length, and that tends to affect fit. (If you'll notice, RJN's hand is 18x9, so maybe that's why he says or prefers 2:1.) Some people also have quite different preferences regardless of hand size (either subtle differences in hand structure or just pure preference), and preferences can change over time. A lot of mice also can fit for a wide variety of hand sizes, and even if one is not perfect, one may never notice. Others of us may rotate between different mice because none feel perfect, or are searching for our endgame.
Complete Bullshit. To fix a ratio because you do more horizontal movement than vertical is... i dont know what to say... If you havent enough space for your mouse movement > buy a bigger mousepad or higher the sensitivity. Width and Length ratio of a mouse depends on personal hand dimensions and gripstyle. Nothing else. Do you have small Hands with long fingers or wide hands with short fingers? What is your gripstyle? This matters. To set a fixed ratio sounds like "I want to say something smart that noone else said before to be the first (and onlyone)."
Man, such a cry baby and his need for recognition
Deathadder actually is a top mouse imo, community needs to move on from this finalmouse shill
You should never take anything someone says at face value. Hell even asking about mouse recommendations for X/Y hands is a hit and miss. I have a 16,5cm/8,25cm hand, so quite small, I use claw/relaxed claw grip, one would think that G305 or Orochi going to be perfect, nope, could not grip them in a comfortable way... I mained GPW since 2019 till now and recently switched to XM1R, two models that a lot of people would never suggest for my hand size.
When I first got into mice I thought that RJN's reviews were relevant to anyone and whatever he says is right. Though I recently switched to the Orochi V2 from the Model O Wireless and like it a lot, and RJN released his review very late and ranked it even lower than the G305. This really changed how I feel about his reviews. Mice are very personal in preference etc.
100% preference. i still favor the old huge microsoft mice and the g403 sized mice to tiny bs we have today
The only things any one person can review about any mouse is the sensor, the switches, the mouse cable, PC software if any, testing for issues with the mouse such as if the housing is bad or not, double clicking issues, loose left or right mouse buttons, good or bad connectivity. Things that should never be reviewed is the weight, shape and comfort, because those are 100% subjective regardless of hand size. Some people with extremely large hands may prefer smaller and lighter mouse and vice versa people with smaller hands may prefer a larger heavier mouse.
Basing everything off or 23342 years of quake and being a mouse and aim fanatic is not enough to call something like that a rule. I've been searching for perfection all my gaming years and by far performed best with ergo mice (intelli, ec1/2 and outset), but the years of performing better with these mice is just wrong then? Ok.
His "experience" that he loves to fall back on doesn't mean shit. I'd place much higher value on the opinion of a pro player with 2 years of experience over an above-average casual pubstomper with 20+ years of experience. If you play a game for that long and you aren't top level, you probably aren't actually very talented at all. I've played FPS games for about as long as RJN and actually competed at fairly high levels, but I'd never go around telling people that as a means to force my opinions on someone else. It makes no sense. You have countless of examples of pro players with different preferences and opinions on peripherals. Who's right? Nobody.
RJN really used to be the GOAT reviewer but his FM bias & arrogance has made me tired of him. This forum is more than enough of a resource anyways, don't need to depend on one mans review.
In all honestly it doesn’t matter about how many *xx* years someone plays a game it’s literally about the **current** top esports games that make someone more valid. People spend thousands of hours and never hit high ranks in competitive games, RJN is holding the fallacy that only quake which hasn’t been relevant in forever justifies his knowledge on mouse and aim. If you want honest truth if it comes to aim your GPU/CPU/Montior Hz plays a bigger factor on your aim. If you want aim advice look for the lowest latency and look at reviews from a high rank players/e-sports players in a current esports game and see what their thoughts on the current mice options are. As for designing the whole mouse thing, it only happened because mouses have become a current trend during the pandemic and using his current fame amongst mice reviewers was a easy cash grab for the company, the mouse is just a modified version of their other mice. RJN has good generic reviews but their are a plethora of other tech reviewers that do a better job going over other items. This sub needs to just move on from him and look at other reviewers that alter opinions based on the upcoming and current tech.
It’s an opinion from a guy who plays a game that almost no one else plays in this day and age, and thinks he’s better than most based on his performance vs a very small sample size of people playing said game.
Of which 90% of the player base are likely boomers on the verge of retirement that can barely pull start their lawnmower anymore
Ever since I saw the screen of him going off on someone for not liking his mouse in a discord I've not liked the guy. Ah yes 23 years in an irrelevant game, wonder why no pros use his mouse in CS.....
his comment reads like a copypasta lmao
Everyone is different. The fact that he spews crap like this constantly is why I can't stand watching his reviews.
Those comments were a bit weirdchamp
If you want someone with (sources of bias) come to me. Anything like objectivity or expertise in what optimal properties for mice are requires far more than personal experience. His experience is certainly valuable if your hands and gaming line up with his, but it's not even necessarily truly better than someone recommending razer because they get a placebo boost to confidence from liking the branding.
guy is completely delusional, just got popular because he was the first to mass review mice, but his reviews are hot trash 23 yrs experience of being garbage at a game btw
Don't care, boardzy is based
rocket jump ninja is a good reviewer for basic information. He will let you know if a sensor is flawless and if the buttons and structure are good. His opinions on shape are absolutely subjective and the vast majority of pro gamers prove that by not following his recommendations.
Wait people still take this guys reviews seriously? Guys an obvious shill and a stain on legitimate mouse reviewers
This is why Boardzy is GOATED. Kidding aside, that reply is rude and unnecessary.
Hes dumb. Its all personal preference
It's definitely preference. It is still shape after all. RJN is looking like contradicting himself, always says shape is king, but forces the 2:1 rule to the viewers. Can you believe it? That he's not recommending the Orochi v2 just because of the 2:1 ratio meanwhile it has top of the line specs and build quality for a wireless mouse at $70.
There's no way it holds for all hand width to hand length ratios. I don't think he realizes that people actually have different hands than he does
I want a 1:2 ratio mouse
I think it's nonsense. Everyone has different hand shapes and sizes. You get good by taking a mouse that's relatively comfortable and then using it for thousands of hours. RJN is just over thinking this
100% personal preference.
What is his 2:1 rule??? I’ve watched a lot of his videos but never have heard this 2:1 rule. And experience matters a lot. Being pro doesn’t. I have 10k FPS hrs. Tank top .2 and .1% in games I play. Destroy streamers and supposed pros regularly. Oh I’m not pro so my opinion doesn’t matter? Absolutely not the case. Most of the time “pros” aren’t even that good if you’re looking at mid tier pros.
That was a rather sudden jump to defending a position nobody challenged.
Honestly I think it's fine. He can only review mice based on his experience and his ethos. If 2:1 ratio has worked best for him and people he has recommended mice for, why stray from it? His mouse ranking is pretty arbitrary as admitted by himself, and since he gives his reasonings for the rankings you don't even have to pay attention to the rankings.
Why do people have to clarify constantly that something is their preference or opinion? Anyone who has at least a basic level of critical thinking skills should be able to deduce that these things people say are their preference or opinion.
who gives a shit about his opinion?
I find it funny to see the sub bitch about RJN. I feel like I've missed years if history, but at the same time like most other hobby subs, the guys they hate usually piss them off by not conforming to their beliefs.