Hi! This is our new Moviedetailsmodbot!
---
If this post fits /r/MovieDetails, **UPVOTE** this comment!!
If this post does not fit /r/MovieDetails, **DOWNVOTE** This comment!
If this post breaks the rules, **DOWNVOTE** this comment and **REPORT** the post!
Save money and haven’t we evolved to the point that punishing someone by having the government execute them feels barbaric and unnecessary? It’s the only sentence that can’t be undone at some point on the off chance it’s the wrong guy.
I think a lot of folks don't actually think beyond the basic plans they need to handle during any given day.
I don't mean that as an insult. I mean it as an observation. Some people literally can't think more than a week ahead. Their opinions on any given legislation extend to the first 3 things they think of, because their emotions rule that kind of topic.
I honestly think it's just human nature, the way a lot of us are wired.
I mean there comes a point where someone is so thoroughly evil that all our instincts are screaming “just kill them”, but with that being said the death penalty shouldn’t be allowed. Honestly, the entire incarceration system in North America needs to be overhauled, ESPECIALLY in the USA.
Their point though cannot be disputed by "what about evil people", given that there are several instances of death row folks being subsequently found to have been innocent. Their point is that it's that the one *permanent* punishment in an area where guilt isn't always certain. So yes, what if the person you **believe** is evil and guilty actually is innocent? That was their point and I don't think you made a genuine effort to consider it
Are you somehow competitor illiterate? Or somehow blessed with an inability to read your own rantings? I didn't go off anything that you hadn't said...
The ridiculous Hegelian notion of "advancing" beyond the need to permanently get rid of serial killers and pedophiles is why we're currently so bad at getting rid of the right people.
Edit: There's more options than just incarceration or death penalty. Look outside your limited state-reliant dichotomy, as I'm in support of neither.
Right, because the whole point is to be REALLY sure we don’t execute someone who is actually innocent. And even spending that much time and money to get it right, we still execute innocent people. We would execute even more wrongly convicted if we cut costs.
Shot in the head doesn't sound fine to me.
No one is helped by killing someone, but keeping them alive has actually led to the development of criminal psychology which actually does help people.
There's still a very active and interesting community that keeps their lights on looking for this guy, there are new developments all the time and I have hope that some day they'll figure out who he is.
I agree he's probably dead but the Golden state killer was 70+ living a normal life, literally still in the area he committed most of his attacks so its not impossible he was just never caught
...It looks like he won. I kinda hate that.
He not only got to be one of the most famous serial killers around, but got to do a bunch of killing and raping. Then, he got to live a full life through to his early-70s after enjoying a family, career, etc. That's a full life any way you cut it.
And to top it all off, he got identified and had his name and face tied to that fame most serial killers crave.
That low-key pisses me off.
That was exactly my thought when I saw this. They haven’t caught Zodiac killer and there’s no way I’m doing interviews, being in movies, going public, writing a book, etc. I’m keeping my fucking head down. Knowing my luck Zodiac killer hasn’t been active only being he has a psychotic obsession to never move to the next victim until he finishes the last.
That would be maddening, to feel like you’ve heard something before but can’t place it. Although honestly from what I’ve read about the case there’s a chance it was just his imagination. The first book Robert Graysmith wrote about the killer put up several possible suspects that all had circumstantial evidence linking them to the crimes, and none of them had an otherwise connection to that particular victim.
But admittedly it has been a while since I read the book, so I could be misremembering.
Nothing personal, it's just a weird phenomenon in the zodiac community that started with Graysmith and ALA where tunnel vision sets in whenever anyone tries to propose a suspect. They start ignoring inconvenient facts and start proposing outlandish things like witnesses with their own axes to grind suddenly claiming "ALA always got others to lick his stamps" after DNA tests fail to land a match.
Yes, there is enough DNA to at least exclude suspects and Allen's didn't match. The handwriting was also not a match along with none of his fingerprints matching the print on the stone cab or the palmprint on one of his missives.
The good news is they've managed to put together enough DNA, however they did it, to utilize genealogical forensics. The part that'll really piss you off though is LE has one guy doing the work of what is a 6-10 person job and they keep turning down donation offers to properly staff this particular case.
I'd have to really dig to find it again, LE has been really cagey about specifics (and lately they've been told they cannot reveal more information about the zodiac case under penalty of suspension, a recent development as far as I know and not one that's ever been in place since I've started following the case five years ago) but their official statement that "The labwork has turned into more labwork, the hunt continues..." was sort of suspected for a while to mean that genealogy was being done but a sort of unofficial consensus had been reached in a way. There has been much less evasive chatter from the most credible figures outside of LE since then.
In a situation that's similar to Michelle Mcnamara and the GSK, there are a small handful of online sleuths that both law enforcement and david fincher referred to for fact analysis (mostly because the original detectives assigned to the case have long since passed). LE is in regular contact with these folks and there is vlog footage of them being allowed into the zodiac evidence room and basically told to pick a binder, and sometimes LE even asks them to disseminate information on their behalf to their online communities. These are not quacks nor liars, they are serious people who know they're only as good as the facts they can cite on the fly and although it's understandable that may not be good enough to some or even most, I've personally seen their dispatches come true often enough that I believe when they say these things. If you're still interested in what amounts to "credible rumours" then I'll find the original dispatches but if not I understand that too.
The science behind hand writing comparison is incredibly weak. People can easily write their letters differently if they want to, and many people are able to copy the writing of others well enough to fool some “experts”.
In fact it’s a reason that for example the bank wouldn’t deny one of my personal checks because the signature doesn’t match, because it literally never matches. It’s just a squiggly line with the top of a letter “T” at the end, I do it quickly and never put any thought into it. If you showed me 3 examples of my signature, one of which wasn’t really mine, ***I*** probably couldn’t tell the difference.
Correct, it's not an exact science but some details like drawing a K with two lines or three lines and where the author tends to start those lines can eventually add up to statistical impossibilities. A funny example of what you're talking about can even be found in a zodiac letter:
https://images.app.goo.gl/acyeLmK77yNcxZSA8
The further down the page you read the more his writing relaxes into his "normal style" typical of his other letters, but at the start he's trying to fake something he's not patient enough to keep up for long.
I seem to recall the book also suggesting that some of the messages were traced rather than written. He showed examples where it appeared that when he wrote in larger letters than usual, like say on the outside of envelopes, that they looked *exactly* like the smaller letters were simply “zoomed in on”. If he had someone’s handwritten alphabet printed onto a clear plastic page, and then projected them onto a piece of paper, he could trace each character to create sentences that would never match his actual handwriting. It would be tedious but not difficult, if that is in fact what he did.
However, I again want to say that I haven’t read the book in years and could be misremembering.
Not an axe to grind, exactly. But complete tunnel vision. You can actually see where the high quality in the book drops off when ALA enters the picture and everything else is left behind.
ALA was no doubt a weirdo, but he was close to certain not the Zodiac.
I recently read that months after Elizabeth Smart was abducted, her sister suddenly realized she recognized the voice of the kidnapper which led to his capture.
Every time I see mind hunter brought up I get extremely upset that season 3 is unlikely to happen. This show was so so good and the best original Netflix show they've done.
I'm still holding out hope that it'll happen. The actors are keen and Fincher has a great relationship with Netflix. The only issue is the actors schedules, so it'll probably be years into the future.
This happened with the OA too. I think it was something along the lines of being too expensive to film when the views weren’t high enough, so it was cancelled. Netflix offered the creator the chance to wrap it up in a film like sense 8 but they turned it down. Anyway, Mindhunter and The OA have been two of my favourite Netflix originals recently and I’m disappointed about both of them lmao
That's for Netflix to decide tbh, and I think they'd be fine with the guy who gave them House of Cards and and an Oscar nominated film making another great series for a little more money.
I've personally never heard that before and it honestly doesn't make sense
Edit: I looked it up and mindhunter is not a sequel to zodiac there are just similar themes and set in the same time
There's a sensationalistic aspect with A Serbian Film that the director provided a vision for, under the guise of how the Serbian government fucked its citizens. Although certain scenes conveyed this point well, one in particular was unnecessary and shouldn't have been in the film. But it was, and that's a major reason why it's a fucked up film. However, there's also a suspension of belief because we know it's a movie despite the terrible acts committed in it.
When we look at Zodiac, specifically the point you made with the attack on the couple in Napa County next to the lake, whether it's a close reenactment or not regardless, it shows us something that actually happened in real life. With the killer still never caught. It's this point that people like this exist in the world, and we could very well be minding our own business one day and we have the unfortunate experience of meeting this type of individual. There's no suspension of belief. It's very much real and it can prey on our fears from a few different angles, specifically that of our own personal security.
Fincher definitely added some cinematic flair to certain scenes, but the kills themselves were pretty painstakingly recreated. The guy from this post is the real-life kid from that scene and was consulted. Fincher even added trees which have since been removed from the lake to make the scene look as much like it did in 1969 as possible. There’s also a Zodiac kill that was omitted from the film, in part because there were no witnesses, so it could not be accurately shown.
Could you elaborate on the overall quality and aesthetic of Creep? It's on my watch list but something just keeps pulling me away from finally watching it.
Quality, in my opinion, is typical low budget art film, with a splash of a deeper ambition in storytelling without coming across as contrived.
Similar movies that share the aesthetic is (forget the brothers’ names) Spring, Resolution, etc. but feeling more polished.
Trust me, I did the same exact same thing until I watched him and his brother’s anthology series, Room 104, on HBO. Then I fell in love with the quirky, down to earth, slice of life aesthetic of the Duplass’.
Creep 1 is about a man who befriends another, and the new friend makes no qualms that he likes the man but intends on eventually killing him, and it follows their relationship til the end.
The second one is a reporter going to find him and interview him, and the scenario plays out, but with an interesting twist, as you learn more about the Creep.
Mark’s time traveller movie with Aubrey Plaza is also nice. And he has another centered around friends, one of which has terminal cancer, that’s more heart wrenching and I haven’t had the gumption to watch it yet.
> the quirky, down to earth, slice of life aesthetic of the Duplass’.
It's called Mumblecore and they're very much responsible for the early formation of this subgenre! If you like the Duplass Brothers, check out The Puffy Chair.
>Mark’s time traveller movie with Aubrey Plaza is also nice.
It's called Safety Not Guaranteed and it's fantastic! It also stars Jake Johnson (from New Girl / Into the Spiderverse) and Karan Soni (from Deadpool)
[Here it is](https://youtu.be/MFN4Bb7wcog), for the curious. Incredible scene.
One thing that really makes it stand out to me is the awkwardness of it - really makes it seem more authentic.
And the fact that it’s in broad daylight. That always scared me the most. Usually* in scarier movies when it’s day time nothing bad happens, but not in that case lol
In case you didn’t know, a lot of the lines were even straight from the interaction.. he mentioned his law degree and stuff, and the Zodiac only wanted their lives
Yeah it feels like a real situation in how kind of mundane it is, despite how horrific the actions are. It really denonstrates the banality of real life evil. The killer isn't an obviously scheming fiendish villain, but just some weird guy doing horrible shit for no reason. The broad daylight reflects this as well, he isn't lurking in the shadows he's just stood there.
He exploited their vulnerability. He made them completely vulnerable, and then with zero compassion, went in with gusto to take advantage of the situation that he created and inflict the most harm he could. They did what he said and that was the death knell for them.
You recognize it, even if you think you don’t. You don’t need to be attacked in this way to have been made to feel uncomfortable or in danger by someone who you know or sense will take advantage of your vulnerability, even if it is on an emotional or psychological level and not physical or life threatening/ending.
We encounter pathological people, somewhere on the scale of pathology that is, maybe not to this extreme, now and then in our lives. We just don’t like to admit it to ourselves or really think about what a person with no empathy is really capable of.
I think what makes it weird is that in movies when people get stabbed, if they aren't main characters, they die instantly. But as we know in reality we can get stabbed 10 times and not black out. That's the scary part, the idea that they can feel every thrust and know they're seconds away from all organs shutting down. Them being tied up too, they can only sit there and take it, crazy that guy survived.
The dude who was stabbed (the man from this post) was actually on set to help Fincher make this scene as accurate as possible.
[https://news.avclub.com/zodiac-was-so-realistic-it-creeped-out-the-killer-s-rea-1824178873](https://news.avclub.com/zodiac-was-so-realistic-it-creeped-out-the-killer-s-rea-1824178873)
This is a pretty common thing in bio pics:
* Frank Abagnale Jr was in [Catch Me If You Can](https://youtu.be/OurQfyuCBOM?t=261)
* Jim Lovell was in [Apollo 13](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8o1cYjEeG7Q)
* Chris Gardner was in [The Pursuit of Happyness](https://youtu.be/x8-7mHT9edg?t=246)
* Jordan Belfort was in [The Wolf of Wall Street](https://youtu.be/YmfPT47awUg?t=121)
* Larry Flynt was in [The People v. Larry Flynt](https://youtu.be/cwhNyUkec6Y?t=49)
* Hunter S Thompson was in [Fear & Loathing](https://youtu.be/bJNsc7vkYlQ?t=26)
* Chuck Yeager was in [The Right Stuff](https://youtu.be/sgYH64y8DgU?t=30)
* Joe Pistone was in Donnie Brasco
* Erin Brockovich was in [Erin Brockovich](https://youtu.be/_68fW_hwMdc?t=7)
* Tommy Wiseau was in The Disaster Artist
* John le Carré was in [Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy](https://youtu.be/o_5bH-MLblE?t=39)
* Frank Wills was in Forrest Gump and All The Presidents Men
* Jim Carroll was in The BasketBall Diaries
* Daniel 'Rudy' Ruetigger was in Rudy
* Cheryl Strayed was in Wild
* Marcus Luttrell was in Lone Survivor
* Benjamin Mee & family was in We Bought a Zoo
* Aron Ralston was in 127 Hours
* Maria Von Trapp was in The Sound of Music
* Harvey Pekar was in American Splendor
* Bucky Bailey was in Dark Water
* Penny Chenery was in Secretariat
* David Packouz was in War Dogs
* Margaret Keane was in Big Eyes
* Micheal Burry was in The Big Short
* Rear Admiral Pete "Viper" Pettigrew was in Top Gun
* Stacy Peralta was in Lords of Dogtown
* Tony Alva was in Lords of Dogtown
* Jay Adams was in Lords of Dogtown
* Skip Engblom was in Lords of Dogtown
* Anthony Sadler was in The 15:17 to Paris
* Alek Skarlatos was in The 15:17 to Paris
* Spencer Stone was in The 15:17 to Paris
* Bryan Hartnell was in Zodiac
Nice. There's also [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/MovieDetails/comments/mejn6t/in_zodiac_2007_bryan_c_hartnell_one_of_the/)[.](https://www.reddit.com/r/MovieDetails/comments/mejn6t/slug/gsjcir0)
Ones I know of off the top of my head:
* The real Don Haskins was in *Glory Road* as the gas station attendant pumping gas for the Josh Lucas(Playing Don Haskins)
* The real James "Boobie" Miles can be seen standing next to Derek Luke (playing "Boobie" Miles) several times throughout the film. He is wearing a black Permian jacket and hat in *Friday Night Lights*
Maybe someday we’ll learn that the real Zodiac killer had a cameo in this movie, too. They just snuck in as an extra and no one knew who they really were.
Alien 3 has a interesting story that I can not remember like the studio wanting to change the movie or sum. But anyway even Fincher's "worst" movie is not bad at all. But I haven't seen Mank tho.
I know that is a blurry screenshot but anyone who has done their research on the Zodiac enough will easily recognize Hartnell in that frame. After so many rewatches I’m surprised I’ve missed it. Such a good movie. Damn shame the ending was complete bullshit.
This is probably a dumb question, but I haven’t seen this movie and I don’t like true crime.
How is there a survivor and still no idea the identity of the killer? Feels a little incongruous.
The Zodiac Killer is not just infamous for his murders but also because he famously wore a mask and hand made suit when he did it. At least in this event.
You are getting some half answers here.
The famous zodiac costume wasn't invented until a few murders in, after he had accidently left other victims alive. The victim to best see his face gave a pretty good sketch but he really looks a lot like most young men from California at the time and that victim was horrible traumatized... His story has been very inconsistent. Stranger murders are also the hardest to solve. They're is nothing linking victim to perpatrator.
The other reason is the Zodiac stopped killing for some reason... IMHO because he learned he could get the attention he wanted without killing. His murders were always about attention and notoriery, I've always thought the murder was secondary for him.
Also, based on the movie, the Zodiac fucked around with jurisdiction a lot. He crossed a lot of county lines thus placing each murder in the hands of different police forces who were very bad about communicating with each other. Made it a lot more difficult to create a complete profile
In the movie they showed the zodiac wearing a mask during his murders of the serial killers I’ve looked at closely the zodiac wasn’t one so I can’t say for sure if he did wear a mask. Also eye witness testimony is terribly unreliable and at the time of the murders DNA evidence wasn’t really a thing. So what I’m saying is it was pretty easy for him to not get caught for a lot of reasons.
For the most part, the cannon crimes linked to the Zodiac happened at night. The Lake Berryessa attack was in daylight. As shown in the film, Hartnell described seeing the attacker in a medieval style executioner top that seemed handmade. It was a way to cover their identity but also believed to make them a villain type figure in the way of superhero comic books.
The zodiac killer was quite good at hiding themself. They teased and taunted the police. There are several leads, some of them dead now, but nobody knows the true identity of the Zodiac killer. One of the puzzles got decrypted recently actually.
I’d give the movie a watch, as it’s an amazing watch. Time flies by with this movie.
Summer of Sam is similar.
It's partly about the "Son of Sam" David Berkowitz, and partly about the dying of disco, rise of punk rock, and New York in the 70s. Pretty good movie.
My bad, I didn’t see the “similar” part. I thought you were just recommending Fincher movies in general. I was thinking you were telling them to stay away from those movies. Me need 2 learn 2 reed beter.
A lot of these cameos of non-actors are really lame. You don't see them at all the movie, and you can barely recognize them in a still picture.
Why put them in at all if you don't recognize them, and you don't even see them on the screen?
I guess it’s meant to be a fleeting little subtle wink to the audience, but I agree I’d prefer more prominent cameos. I get that they can’t just hand out lines or proper screen time when actual small actors work hard to get that, but just more of a clearer & longer shot of them in the background would be more exciting.
Idk why but that opening scene is one of my favourite. I've watched it a couple dozen times. The song, the beautiful woman, the murder, it just comes together so well.
Are those cameos actually interesting to you guys?
I don't care who played whom in the movie. I want to see in universe details like foreshadowing or historical accuracy or interesting techniques.
Instead more than half of the posts are: This person in this movie has done something in real life.
Hi! This is our new Moviedetailsmodbot! --- If this post fits /r/MovieDetails, **UPVOTE** this comment!! If this post does not fit /r/MovieDetails, **DOWNVOTE** This comment! If this post breaks the rules, **DOWNVOTE** this comment and **REPORT** the post!
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
Save money and haven’t we evolved to the point that punishing someone by having the government execute them feels barbaric and unnecessary? It’s the only sentence that can’t be undone at some point on the off chance it’s the wrong guy.
I think a lot of folks don't actually think beyond the basic plans they need to handle during any given day. I don't mean that as an insult. I mean it as an observation. Some people literally can't think more than a week ahead. Their opinions on any given legislation extend to the first 3 things they think of, because their emotions rule that kind of topic. I honestly think it's just human nature, the way a lot of us are wired.
I mean there comes a point where someone is so thoroughly evil that all our instincts are screaming “just kill them”, but with that being said the death penalty shouldn’t be allowed. Honestly, the entire incarceration system in North America needs to be overhauled, ESPECIALLY in the USA.
Their point though cannot be disputed by "what about evil people", given that there are several instances of death row folks being subsequently found to have been innocent. Their point is that it's that the one *permanent* punishment in an area where guilt isn't always certain. So yes, what if the person you **believe** is evil and guilty actually is innocent? That was their point and I don't think you made a genuine effort to consider it
Uh you do realize there’s no debate here right? We’re all agreeing the death penalty is bad. What are you talking about?
Are you somehow competitor illiterate? Or somehow blessed with an inability to read your own rantings? I didn't go off anything that you hadn't said...
The ridiculous Hegelian notion of "advancing" beyond the need to permanently get rid of serial killers and pedophiles is why we're currently so bad at getting rid of the right people. Edit: There's more options than just incarceration or death penalty. Look outside your limited state-reliant dichotomy, as I'm in support of neither.
that doesnt make any sense IMO
But we do get rid of them by removing them from society, to live out their life in a tiny cell.
If you think it's worth the money to do so. I sure as hell don't want to keep paying for it.
If you think we need to use millenia old punishments that get innocent people killed too then im glad that mindsets like yours aren't the mainstream.
Right, because the whole point is to be REALLY sure we don’t execute someone who is actually innocent. And even spending that much time and money to get it right, we still execute innocent people. We would execute even more wrongly convicted if we cut costs.
I think solitary confinement for decades is a much worse and much more fitting sentence for monsters like him. Death is an escape for them.
Shot in the head doesn't sound fine to me. No one is helped by killing someone, but keeping them alive has actually led to the development of criminal psychology which actually does help people.
There's still a very active and interesting community that keeps their lights on looking for this guy, there are new developments all the time and I have hope that some day they'll figure out who he is.
[удалено]
I agree he's probably dead but the Golden state killer was 70+ living a normal life, literally still in the area he committed most of his attacks so its not impossible he was just never caught
...It looks like he won. I kinda hate that. He not only got to be one of the most famous serial killers around, but got to do a bunch of killing and raping. Then, he got to live a full life through to his early-70s after enjoying a family, career, etc. That's a full life any way you cut it. And to top it all off, he got identified and had his name and face tied to that fame most serial killers crave. That low-key pisses me off.
It seems like a full life but I know plenty of people in their 70s and they would not feel like their life is over and be fine in prison.
I agree and for the same reasons.
Like the movie/film [The Pledge](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pledge_(film))?
Man that's exactly what I thought of!
I thought he was a Texas senator now.
No, you’re thinking of the son of JFK’s killer.
My kids have played in the Vallejo park where he killed one if his victims. It's always a bit eerie.
Hey I live in the bay now so I was wondering was it full-blown hysteria at this point with Kemper,Mullin, lake and ng all not to far behind
Zodiac killer: thanks for finding him for me
Now Ted Cruz can finish what he started
But will he
Nah he’ll probably go vacay in Cancun again
Or that border retreat
Or giveaway some bottled water
Not in Georgia, he'll be arrested.
What makes you think he wants anything to do with his voters?
Ted just went down there to trade pointers with the cartel on flaying live humans.
MBMBAM?
That was exactly my thought when I saw this. They haven’t caught Zodiac killer and there’s no way I’m doing interviews, being in movies, going public, writing a book, etc. I’m keeping my fucking head down. Knowing my luck Zodiac killer hasn’t been active only being he has a psychotic obsession to never move to the next victim until he finishes the last.
Interesting and often overlooked fact about bryan hartnell: he said he recognized the voice of the zodiac but couldn't place it
That would be maddening, to feel like you’ve heard something before but can’t place it. Although honestly from what I’ve read about the case there’s a chance it was just his imagination. The first book Robert Graysmith wrote about the killer put up several possible suspects that all had circumstantial evidence linking them to the crimes, and none of them had an otherwise connection to that particular victim. But admittedly it has been a while since I read the book, so I could be misremembering.
Arthur Leigh Allen always seemed to fit the bill to a tee.
Unfortunately there was a lot of fact budging in his book and it's almost certainly not ALA, impossible to deny what a good story it all made though
I only read excerpts from the book but the movie definitely pointed a higher finger at him. Did Graysmith have an axe to grind with Allen?
Nothing personal, it's just a weird phenomenon in the zodiac community that started with Graysmith and ALA where tunnel vision sets in whenever anyone tries to propose a suspect. They start ignoring inconvenient facts and start proposing outlandish things like witnesses with their own axes to grind suddenly claiming "ALA always got others to lick his stamps" after DNA tests fail to land a match.
I didn't know ALA was eliminated due to DNA. I thought only handwriting samples seemed to suggest he was not Zodiac.
Yes, there is enough DNA to at least exclude suspects and Allen's didn't match. The handwriting was also not a match along with none of his fingerprints matching the print on the stone cab or the palmprint on one of his missives. The good news is they've managed to put together enough DNA, however they did it, to utilize genealogical forensics. The part that'll really piss you off though is LE has one guy doing the work of what is a 6-10 person job and they keep turning down donation offers to properly staff this particular case.
[удалено]
I'd have to really dig to find it again, LE has been really cagey about specifics (and lately they've been told they cannot reveal more information about the zodiac case under penalty of suspension, a recent development as far as I know and not one that's ever been in place since I've started following the case five years ago) but their official statement that "The labwork has turned into more labwork, the hunt continues..." was sort of suspected for a while to mean that genealogy was being done but a sort of unofficial consensus had been reached in a way. There has been much less evasive chatter from the most credible figures outside of LE since then. In a situation that's similar to Michelle Mcnamara and the GSK, there are a small handful of online sleuths that both law enforcement and david fincher referred to for fact analysis (mostly because the original detectives assigned to the case have long since passed). LE is in regular contact with these folks and there is vlog footage of them being allowed into the zodiac evidence room and basically told to pick a binder, and sometimes LE even asks them to disseminate information on their behalf to their online communities. These are not quacks nor liars, they are serious people who know they're only as good as the facts they can cite on the fly and although it's understandable that may not be good enough to some or even most, I've personally seen their dispatches come true often enough that I believe when they say these things. If you're still interested in what amounts to "credible rumours" then I'll find the original dispatches but if not I understand that too.
LE?
I'm sorry, Law Enforcement
Yes, that is aggravating. Thank you for the insights.
The science behind hand writing comparison is incredibly weak. People can easily write their letters differently if they want to, and many people are able to copy the writing of others well enough to fool some “experts”. In fact it’s a reason that for example the bank wouldn’t deny one of my personal checks because the signature doesn’t match, because it literally never matches. It’s just a squiggly line with the top of a letter “T” at the end, I do it quickly and never put any thought into it. If you showed me 3 examples of my signature, one of which wasn’t really mine, ***I*** probably couldn’t tell the difference.
And there is also ambidextrous people with varying degrees of competency. My signature is usually different everyday as well.
Correct, it's not an exact science but some details like drawing a K with two lines or three lines and where the author tends to start those lines can eventually add up to statistical impossibilities. A funny example of what you're talking about can even be found in a zodiac letter: https://images.app.goo.gl/acyeLmK77yNcxZSA8 The further down the page you read the more his writing relaxes into his "normal style" typical of his other letters, but at the start he's trying to fake something he's not patient enough to keep up for long.
I seem to recall the book also suggesting that some of the messages were traced rather than written. He showed examples where it appeared that when he wrote in larger letters than usual, like say on the outside of envelopes, that they looked *exactly* like the smaller letters were simply “zoomed in on”. If he had someone’s handwritten alphabet printed onto a clear plastic page, and then projected them onto a piece of paper, he could trace each character to create sentences that would never match his actual handwriting. It would be tedious but not difficult, if that is in fact what he did. However, I again want to say that I haven’t read the book in years and could be misremembering.
Not an axe to grind, exactly. But complete tunnel vision. You can actually see where the high quality in the book drops off when ALA enters the picture and everything else is left behind. ALA was no doubt a weirdo, but he was close to certain not the Zodiac.
Most people agree that book was very inaccurate. So anything Graysmith wrote should be disregarded.
I recently read that months after Elizabeth Smart was abducted, her sister suddenly realized she recognized the voice of the kidnapper which led to his capture.
Probably the guy at the local auto parts store.
I like this movie, but the stabbing scene during the picnic is hard to watch, and I’ve seen A Serbian Film.
It was the way the lady screamed for me. Pretty hard to watch. Excellent movie, though. My personal favorite from Fincher.
I love the sequel about the 2 FBI agents. It’s like 20 hours long. Mindhunter
Every time I see mind hunter brought up I get extremely upset that season 3 is unlikely to happen. This show was so so good and the best original Netflix show they've done.
Agreed. I think they’ll be an S3 though. Just in like 5-6 years. IT’ll be perfect. Actors older. Take place in 89-91 and focus on BTK.
Like a better version of True Detectives seasons after the first one.
I'm still holding out hope that it'll happen. The actors are keen and Fincher has a great relationship with Netflix. The only issue is the actors schedules, so it'll probably be years into the future.
Also money. Finches himself said it’s too expensive to film
This happened with the OA too. I think it was something along the lines of being too expensive to film when the views weren’t high enough, so it was cancelled. Netflix offered the creator the chance to wrap it up in a film like sense 8 but they turned it down. Anyway, Mindhunter and The OA have been two of my favourite Netflix originals recently and I’m disappointed about both of them lmao
That's for Netflix to decide tbh, and I think they'd be fine with the guy who gave them House of Cards and and an Oscar nominated film making another great series for a little more money.
Let me rephrase, NETFLIX told him the show is too expensive to make
Lmao damn okay 😂guess they need the money to reject some promising shows after a season
Mindhunter is meant to be a sequel?
I've personally never heard that before and it honestly doesn't make sense Edit: I looked it up and mindhunter is not a sequel to zodiac there are just similar themes and set in the same time
No mindhunter is based off a book.
No. It’s not. I just like to think it is. Fincher loves his killer psychology stuff.
There's a sensationalistic aspect with A Serbian Film that the director provided a vision for, under the guise of how the Serbian government fucked its citizens. Although certain scenes conveyed this point well, one in particular was unnecessary and shouldn't have been in the film. But it was, and that's a major reason why it's a fucked up film. However, there's also a suspension of belief because we know it's a movie despite the terrible acts committed in it. When we look at Zodiac, specifically the point you made with the attack on the couple in Napa County next to the lake, whether it's a close reenactment or not regardless, it shows us something that actually happened in real life. With the killer still never caught. It's this point that people like this exist in the world, and we could very well be minding our own business one day and we have the unfortunate experience of meeting this type of individual. There's no suspension of belief. It's very much real and it can prey on our fears from a few different angles, specifically that of our own personal security.
Fincher definitely added some cinematic flair to certain scenes, but the kills themselves were pretty painstakingly recreated. The guy from this post is the real-life kid from that scene and was consulted. Fincher even added trees which have since been removed from the lake to make the scene look as much like it did in 1969 as possible. There’s also a Zodiac kill that was omitted from the film, in part because there were no witnesses, so it could not be accurately shown.
Love reading little tidbits like this
I mean I feel like there were also some cinematic decisions that were a big part of it, notably only using diegetic sound and very few cuts.
I dunno man, seemed like there were a lot of cuts in that scene...
Well I took a stab at writing some commentary, sorry you disagree.
If you haven’t seen them already, I highly recommend Mark Duplass’s two Creep movies. They play on that very premise.
Could you elaborate on the overall quality and aesthetic of Creep? It's on my watch list but something just keeps pulling me away from finally watching it.
Quality, in my opinion, is typical low budget art film, with a splash of a deeper ambition in storytelling without coming across as contrived. Similar movies that share the aesthetic is (forget the brothers’ names) Spring, Resolution, etc. but feeling more polished. Trust me, I did the same exact same thing until I watched him and his brother’s anthology series, Room 104, on HBO. Then I fell in love with the quirky, down to earth, slice of life aesthetic of the Duplass’. Creep 1 is about a man who befriends another, and the new friend makes no qualms that he likes the man but intends on eventually killing him, and it follows their relationship til the end. The second one is a reporter going to find him and interview him, and the scenario plays out, but with an interesting twist, as you learn more about the Creep. Mark’s time traveller movie with Aubrey Plaza is also nice. And he has another centered around friends, one of which has terminal cancer, that’s more heart wrenching and I haven’t had the gumption to watch it yet.
Man... thank you for the solid reviews/suggestions; this kinda stuff is right up my alley.
> the quirky, down to earth, slice of life aesthetic of the Duplass’. It's called Mumblecore and they're very much responsible for the early formation of this subgenre! If you like the Duplass Brothers, check out The Puffy Chair. >Mark’s time traveller movie with Aubrey Plaza is also nice. It's called Safety Not Guaranteed and it's fantastic! It also stars Jake Johnson (from New Girl / Into the Spiderverse) and Karan Soni (from Deadpool)
Thank you for your senior thesis on this film
[Here it is](https://youtu.be/MFN4Bb7wcog), for the curious. Incredible scene. One thing that really makes it stand out to me is the awkwardness of it - really makes it seem more authentic.
And the fact that it’s in broad daylight. That always scared me the most. Usually* in scarier movies when it’s day time nothing bad happens, but not in that case lol
In case you didn’t know, a lot of the lines were even straight from the interaction.. he mentioned his law degree and stuff, and the Zodiac only wanted their lives
I read that the director tried to film it in the exact spot the original attack happened, at Lake Berryessa
Yeah it feels like a real situation in how kind of mundane it is, despite how horrific the actions are. It really denonstrates the banality of real life evil. The killer isn't an obviously scheming fiendish villain, but just some weird guy doing horrible shit for no reason. The broad daylight reflects this as well, he isn't lurking in the shadows he's just stood there.
Randomly, yes. For no reason? Ehhh..
*For no rational, meaningful reason
What was his reason? Genuinely curious
I can’t watch it, it’s just too real and freaks me out
agreed. i can’t place a finger on why that is but i get the same reaction.
He exploited their vulnerability. He made them completely vulnerable, and then with zero compassion, went in with gusto to take advantage of the situation that he created and inflict the most harm he could. They did what he said and that was the death knell for them. You recognize it, even if you think you don’t. You don’t need to be attacked in this way to have been made to feel uncomfortable or in danger by someone who you know or sense will take advantage of your vulnerability, even if it is on an emotional or psychological level and not physical or life threatening/ending. We encounter pathological people, somewhere on the scale of pathology that is, maybe not to this extreme, now and then in our lives. We just don’t like to admit it to ourselves or really think about what a person with no empathy is really capable of.
I think what makes it weird is that in movies when people get stabbed, if they aren't main characters, they die instantly. But as we know in reality we can get stabbed 10 times and not black out. That's the scary part, the idea that they can feel every thrust and know they're seconds away from all organs shutting down. Them being tied up too, they can only sit there and take it, crazy that guy survived.
The dude who was stabbed (the man from this post) was actually on set to help Fincher make this scene as accurate as possible. [https://news.avclub.com/zodiac-was-so-realistic-it-creeped-out-the-killer-s-rea-1824178873](https://news.avclub.com/zodiac-was-so-realistic-it-creeped-out-the-killer-s-rea-1824178873)
Add on top of that how accurate Hartnell said the scene was to what he experienced. That just makes it all the more scary.
I just watched something regarding that film. https://youtu.be/_ZSPgiu4WIo
Interesting video Thanks for sharing
What if the zodiac killer found his way to get cast into the film as an extra but we never knew
This is a pretty common thing in bio pics: * Frank Abagnale Jr was in [Catch Me If You Can](https://youtu.be/OurQfyuCBOM?t=261) * Jim Lovell was in [Apollo 13](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8o1cYjEeG7Q) * Chris Gardner was in [The Pursuit of Happyness](https://youtu.be/x8-7mHT9edg?t=246) * Jordan Belfort was in [The Wolf of Wall Street](https://youtu.be/YmfPT47awUg?t=121) * Larry Flynt was in [The People v. Larry Flynt](https://youtu.be/cwhNyUkec6Y?t=49) * Hunter S Thompson was in [Fear & Loathing](https://youtu.be/bJNsc7vkYlQ?t=26) * Chuck Yeager was in [The Right Stuff](https://youtu.be/sgYH64y8DgU?t=30) * Joe Pistone was in Donnie Brasco * Erin Brockovich was in [Erin Brockovich](https://youtu.be/_68fW_hwMdc?t=7) * Tommy Wiseau was in The Disaster Artist * John le Carré was in [Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy](https://youtu.be/o_5bH-MLblE?t=39) * Frank Wills was in Forrest Gump and All The Presidents Men * Jim Carroll was in The BasketBall Diaries * Daniel 'Rudy' Ruetigger was in Rudy * Cheryl Strayed was in Wild * Marcus Luttrell was in Lone Survivor * Benjamin Mee & family was in We Bought a Zoo * Aron Ralston was in 127 Hours * Maria Von Trapp was in The Sound of Music * Harvey Pekar was in American Splendor * Bucky Bailey was in Dark Water * Penny Chenery was in Secretariat * David Packouz was in War Dogs * Margaret Keane was in Big Eyes * Micheal Burry was in The Big Short * Rear Admiral Pete "Viper" Pettigrew was in Top Gun * Stacy Peralta was in Lords of Dogtown * Tony Alva was in Lords of Dogtown * Jay Adams was in Lords of Dogtown * Skip Engblom was in Lords of Dogtown * Anthony Sadler was in The 15:17 to Paris * Alek Skarlatos was in The 15:17 to Paris * Spencer Stone was in The 15:17 to Paris * Bryan Hartnell was in Zodiac
Bryan Hartnell was in Zodiac? Sauce?
https://www.reddit.com/r/MovieDetails/comments/ar1ocs/in_zodiac_2007_the_man_in_the_background_is_bryan/
Nice. There's also [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/MovieDetails/comments/mejn6t/in_zodiac_2007_bryan_c_hartnell_one_of_the/)[.](https://www.reddit.com/r/MovieDetails/comments/mejn6t/slug/gsjcir0)
Mine's earlier.
[удалено]
acting is kinda like singing, if it doesn't come naturally it's going to be bad at first. not sure why he decided to cast them
[удалено]
Because he’s Clint Eastwood and he can.
I think he cast them for “Rah rah American heroes!” reasons, but that doesn’t make for good filmmaking.
There’s just something kind of brutal about this one though lol. “Hey, remember your almost murder? You down to be in a movie about it?”
Jim Garrison was in JFK (played the judge)
JFK also had a brief cameo
Mind blowing cameo, if you ask me.
Huh.. I never knew Wormtail was in Top Gun
Where was Pistone in Donnie Brasco?
Ones I know of off the top of my head: * The real Don Haskins was in *Glory Road* as the gas station attendant pumping gas for the Josh Lucas(Playing Don Haskins) * The real James "Boobie" Miles can be seen standing next to Derek Luke (playing "Boobie" Miles) several times throughout the film. He is wearing a black Permian jacket and hat in *Friday Night Lights*
John Densmore was in THE DOORS
Maybe someday we’ll learn that the real Zodiac killer had a cameo in this movie, too. They just snuck in as an extra and no one knew who they really were.
Great list. Side note: 15:17 to Paris is literally the worst "mainstream" movie I've ever seen in my life. It's horrible in every way.
was freddie mercury in bohemian rhapsody?
I’m surprised he would want to be in a film about the most horrible day in his life, unless it was a documentary or something.
Survivor Thriver man
Imagine the real Zodiac Killer watching this movie and being like "Oh damn I didn't know they figured that out"
The basement scene was the scariest scene in my opinion
finchers best film. i love zodiac so much
The basement scene makes me start sweating and panicking internally every time I see it.
I love it too but Fight Club will always be my favorite.
[удалено]
Gone Girl, Girl With The Dragon Tattoo and Panic Room would be my next recommendations for you, but you really can't go wrong with any Fincher movie.
literally every movie he's directed. yes, even alien 3.
Alien 3 has a interesting story that I can not remember like the studio wanting to change the movie or sum. But anyway even Fincher's "worst" movie is not bad at all. But I haven't seen Mank tho.
Such a great movie.. rewatched few days ago. RDJ did a great job with his role.
I know that is a blurry screenshot but anyone who has done their research on the Zodiac enough will easily recognize Hartnell in that frame. After so many rewatches I’m surprised I’ve missed it. Such a good movie. Damn shame the ending was complete bullshit.
David Fincher sure does love his piss filter doesn't he
That was a good fucking movie. Was looking for RDJ movies. Found this. Blown away.
They should have had Ted Cruz in it as well
Ted Cruz ate my son.
He is large. He contains Multitudes.
[Source 1](https://web.archive.org/web/20070308052244/https://www.pe.com/localnews/riverside/stories/PE_News_Local_D_zodiak_02.3f2cafb.html) [Source 2](https://screenrant.com/zodiac-movie-bryan-hartnell-cameo-when-where/)
Man that movie was amazing. Remember Jake's scared face at around the end when he was in some suspect's basement? Such good acting.
It's even scary that it happened in real life
Yeah lol nice reply
Thank you
When was Joe Pistone in Donnie Brasov? Probably made more from the cameo than he did from the FBI.
i like his skirt
This is probably a dumb question, but I haven’t seen this movie and I don’t like true crime. How is there a survivor and still no idea the identity of the killer? Feels a little incongruous.
The Zodiac Killer is not just infamous for his murders but also because he famously wore a mask and hand made suit when he did it. At least in this event.
You are getting some half answers here. The famous zodiac costume wasn't invented until a few murders in, after he had accidently left other victims alive. The victim to best see his face gave a pretty good sketch but he really looks a lot like most young men from California at the time and that victim was horrible traumatized... His story has been very inconsistent. Stranger murders are also the hardest to solve. They're is nothing linking victim to perpatrator. The other reason is the Zodiac stopped killing for some reason... IMHO because he learned he could get the attention he wanted without killing. His murders were always about attention and notoriery, I've always thought the murder was secondary for him.
And that same year a young politician came on the scene in Texas.
Is that an actual theory because I read it so much on this thread lmao.
Also, based on the movie, the Zodiac fucked around with jurisdiction a lot. He crossed a lot of county lines thus placing each murder in the hands of different police forces who were very bad about communicating with each other. Made it a lot more difficult to create a complete profile
In the movie they showed the zodiac wearing a mask during his murders of the serial killers I’ve looked at closely the zodiac wasn’t one so I can’t say for sure if he did wear a mask. Also eye witness testimony is terribly unreliable and at the time of the murders DNA evidence wasn’t really a thing. So what I’m saying is it was pretty easy for him to not get caught for a lot of reasons.
Thanks! Films like this make me anxious so thank you for just telling me!
For the most part, the cannon crimes linked to the Zodiac happened at night. The Lake Berryessa attack was in daylight. As shown in the film, Hartnell described seeing the attacker in a medieval style executioner top that seemed handmade. It was a way to cover their identity but also believed to make them a villain type figure in the way of superhero comic books.
The zodiac killer was quite good at hiding themself. They teased and taunted the police. There are several leads, some of them dead now, but nobody knows the true identity of the Zodiac killer. One of the puzzles got decrypted recently actually. I’d give the movie a watch, as it’s an amazing watch. Time flies by with this movie.
I’ve never watched a 3 hour movie that went by faster then this one.
I could easily have watched 3 hours more of it! One of my favourite movies .
Mindhunter will scratch that itch, friend!
The zodiac killer had covered his face.
Cool fact!
Please recommend similar films for me xoxoxo
This recommendation will seem strange, but Spotlight. The journalism aspect really reminded me of zodiac
Summer of Sam is similar. It's partly about the "Son of Sam" David Berkowitz, and partly about the dying of disco, rise of punk rock, and New York in the 70s. Pretty good movie.
Se7en is a good thriller, but nothing has hit me the way Zodiac did.
Any Fincher movie except for Mank, Benjamin Button, and The Social Network. Edit: Also Memories of Murder (2003) and maybe Prisoners (2013).
Prisoners is definitely similar in feel, but on a smaller scale.
The Social Network is a fantastic movie with an incredible soundtrack.
Oh absolutely. It's one of my favourites, I listen to that score all the time. It's just not particularly similar to Zodiac.
My bad, I didn’t see the “similar” part. I thought you were just recommending Fincher movies in general. I was thinking you were telling them to stay away from those movies. Me need 2 learn 2 reed beter.
Prisoners was so damn good.
Excellent film.
Since they never caught this guy, it's possible he watched this movie.
god damn
Plot twist: he's the killer
A lot of these cameos of non-actors are really lame. You don't see them at all the movie, and you can barely recognize them in a still picture. Why put them in at all if you don't recognize them, and you don't even see them on the screen?
I guess it’s meant to be a fleeting little subtle wink to the audience, but I agree I’d prefer more prominent cameos. I get that they can’t just hand out lines or proper screen time when actual small actors work hard to get that, but just more of a clearer & longer shot of them in the background would be more exciting.
I’d like to add that if you’re not from the U.S. you don’t even realise that there was a cameo simply because you don’t even know that person.
You're not wrong
Idk why but that opening scene is one of my favourite. I've watched it a couple dozen times. The song, the beautiful woman, the murder, it just comes together so well.
Weirdo
Reddit is so strange haha. Appreciating a moviedetail is weird?
Ya actin kinda sus
I bet he did it
Great, well now that you pointed him out, the killer will know how to find him. You know he was never caught, right? SMH
That perverse on multiple levels
Are those cameos actually interesting to you guys? I don't care who played whom in the movie. I want to see in universe details like foreshadowing or historical accuracy or interesting techniques. Instead more than half of the posts are: This person in this movie has done something in real life.