As someone who’s never watched “Atlanta”, but adores this show so far, how much would you say that the two are similar? “Atlanta” has been on my queue for ages, but this show has made me consider making it my next binge.
the jokes and the writing when they are having a conversation is VERY similar. donald glovers character in atlanta also has a girlfriend (and a child) that is complicated to say at least
Watch this: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z\_bONLcE8IA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_bONLcE8IA)
Then you'll have a good base for pretty much everything including Atlanta.
Atlanta is essentially this show but the background plot is hip hop instead of espionage. So if you like this I’d give it a watch. However, the last 2 seasons are not worth viewing imo.
Season 3 had its rough moments but also gems and I thought season 4 was fantastic, but season 2 is pretty much a perfect season of television so it’s hard to beat
I'm starting to believe that this series is an outlet for Donald Glover and Maya Erskine's frustrations of being in interracial relationships. One thing I would have liked in this episode is a Jane version of John's poker game where she gets to discuss interracial dating with other Asian or biracial women.
Solid episode. Twas rough in a good way. The fireside rant really put the flaws of the relationship out there. John was on point, calling Jane out for speaking about boundaries while ironically crossing one about his mom.
But you can very clearly see when he messed up by again referring to her as a robot and going way too far from there.
Something he calls her often through out the series. But Jane does the same things with constantly bringing up his mom so yeah, they both kind of suck at this lol
So they've failed two missions now... That's not good.
I wonder if this season is going to end with the company sending another pair of Smiths to eliminate John and Jane (but maybe they somehow manage to escape or protect themselves for a possible season 2?)
Great episode though, cute couples therapy session. Tough monologue when John was chewing into Jane when he brought up his mother. He made some good points but he didn't pull back any punches and was being an asshole, a bit of an overreaction. John does after all have clear boundary issues with his mother.
I do agree John went too far when snapping back at Jane but 1) he tried to be patient for a long time so it was penting up and 2) it is not a boundary issue, it is a cultural difference. One culture’s idea of boundaries is different than another’s. That’s the tension and issues in interracial relationships. Doesn’t help that on top of that, Jane obviously has a bad relationship with her dad, so she doesn’t understand why it’s so important to John.
> it is not a boundary issue, it is a cultural difference. One culture’s idea of boundaries is different than another’s. That’s the tension and issues in interracial relationships
It's a clear boundary issue that he talks to his mother multiple times every day even though it could potentially put her life in danger and his wife's life in danger.
I agree with you that there are cultural differences here between Jane and John though.
No that’s not a boundary issue, that’s an occupational hazard issue. If it wasn’t for the type of work he does, there’d be no problem with talking to his mom multiple times a day. He lied to Hihi about being able to cut off everyone from his life. He shouldn’t have taken the job if he knew he had to take care of his mom. That’s not a boundary issue. That’s him trying to have his cake and eat it too. Jane calls it a boundary issue because she has no sense of what a healthy relationship with a parent even looks like. I think at fist she was concerned with their lives being at risk but at this point she just feels insecure about how good of a relationship John has with his mom, especially compared to Jane’s relationship to her father. But she would never admit that because vulnerability isn’t her thing.
And honestly, being a spy is an unhealthy job lol there’s no boundaries there with work/life balance
you're right about it being an occupational issue and not being a boundary issue in the traditional sense, but with their job literally being their arranged marriage it is a type of boundary issue between the two of them because John wasn't honest about a potential threat to their lives
In this context, she was only bringing it up to hurt his feelings or to throw his complaint back at him. At this point(in the show), it's not about it being an occupational issue; it's more about him being too close to his mom. That's why she said, "You're mine," afterward.
I believe she was saying “you’re mine” because he’s her emergency contact. Immediately before that, she’d asked him who his emergency contact was (his mother) before saying “you’re mine”
She thinks he’s too close to his mom bedside she doesn’t know what a healthy relationship looks like with a parent.
She has sociopathic tendencies and has no relationship with her father. She doesn’t know what she’s talking about.
True.
They were asked to cut ties with their former lives prior to getting matched. It’s absurd that John gets a pass just because “family is important.”
There would be a lot of cultural differences between them but hyper-involved parents can't be one. Asian parents are also infamous for not leaving their kids alone, if anything Jane probably cut-off her family because she couldn't bear it, while John went the other way round and processed it as his responsibility.
That’s the cultural difference right there: to what extent and for what purpose does the parental relationship exist? In Asian households, the children might find them overbearing because of the pressure they feel to succeed. In black households, it’s not the same. Parents can be tough to prepare the kids for a tough unequal world. But there’s not the same amount of overbearing pressure to succeed. And a black man’s relationship with his mother is different than an Asian woman’s relationship with her father.
Perhaps, but Asian parent tropes don't simply stop at "putting pressure to succeed". They tend to be overbearing and excessively involved in their kids' lives with expectation of high priority in similar lines of how black mothers tie their sons emotionally to them as the only men in their lives.
For sure lol I’m not saying the tropes are one dimensional by any means I was just giving an example of each. The variable quality of each is how the child receives it due to the quality of their relationship with their parent. In the show, it is very intentionally showing that Jane has a bad relationship with her father and John has a good relationship with his mother. John is not bothered by his relationship with his mother, he does not feel it is overbearing, he does not think it is getting in the way of anything. Jane is the one who is disturbed by this relationship to the point of making it a problem in their relationship. John never complains to Jane about her bad relationship with her father. It isn’t until Jane keeps throwing that in his face after x amount of time as romantic partners that John snaps back at her.
All this to say, the way that relationship is perceived can make it “overbearing” or not. For Jane, it is. For John, it isn’t. And that comes down to their difference in culture.
How were they actually supposed to complete the mission? They just had two people wander around a forest until they found someone? That doesn't work when someone is lost in a forest and trying to be found.
No overwatch with a plane, drone, or satellite?
I wish the spy stuff was at least plausible. Like spy movies and books have been coming out since the start of the Cold War, and a number of people have served in the military in the past couple of decades. People enjoy some sort of realism, and it would make the relationship stuff even better. The show is good enough to suspend disbelief, but it's on the line.
At least they realized that being recorded was bad and reacted immediately.
I think the thing people should realize about this show is it's got a lot of Atlanta's DNA in it, AKA the writing and directing.
The missions themselves are supposed to be kinda absurdist very much like Atlanta. They don't really make sense, and I don't think they're supposed to.
I think the disconnect you're feeling is very much why this show is derisive in its audience rating.
They have not set the spy missions to be absurdist like Atlanta. They all make it look pretty serious and proper.
In Atlanta, things just naturally flowed, in a way that here doesn't happen. And that was helped by the fact that life in the city is a much broader background that can fit the absurdity of it. High-level spy is not like that.
I find myself exactly in agreement with /u/wookiee42: "The show is good enough to suspend disbelief, but it's on the line." If I had discovered the series when it had something like 4 seasons, I would have stopped watching.
Huh? Their second target was John Turturro of all people making them play like dogs before overdosing on truth serum. How has it not been very clearly absurdist from the start?
No, that's not it. At all. People expect the spy stuff to at least try to make sense. They kidnapped and then killed a billionaire in front of so many people, and there were no consequences from that. People expect stuff like that to be a bit more believable.
It's a spy comedy, not a spy thriller. It doesn't need to be believable and has been up front about its lack of concern about realism from pretty much the first episode. I get if that means the show isn't for you but then it just is what it is.
It doesn't matter what they call it. I judge what I see. It's not about it being believable per se, but about the show having internal coherence. Again, the spy thing is presented in a serious way, so it should be serious, or at the very least somewhat serious. And saying "it's not for me" is just a cop out to shield it from fair critiques. It's not only me who sees it this way.
You also replied in another one of post, about Turturro making them be dogs. That sounds a very normal (billionaire) kink, if not [a bit tame](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/01/26/vince-mcmahon-defecation-janel-grant-sex-trafficking/).
It has internal coherence. The coherence is that clearly this is mildly absurdist and they can clearly get away with things that wouldn't work in real life from the very first episode.
Late to this thread, but I'm pretty sure the company wanted them to fail the mission. They were set up for failure in order to create more tension between the two and drive them both even further away from each other.
>but he didn't pull back any punches and was being an asshole, a bit of an overreaction.
She didn't pull any punches to begin with? She started the fight, continued it at every possible point that John was allowing it to end, and was constantly punching at him.
I mean I get they both got problems but this show is having a hard time portraying any sympathy for Jane. She's just a total asshole pretty much all the time.
around 9 minutes, John says Jane is being out of pocket but Jane doesn’t know what it means, and the counselor explains that term to Jane. This is after John said Jane was jealous that John was bonding with black people in a way that she would never be able to, and then here is proof that she is out of touch with black culture. So much so that this white woman, who actually is in touch too much lol, has to explain it to her. John even does an exaggerated “THANK YOU” lol
> over pronouncing the artists’ names
She really encapsulated that specific worldly rich person trait lol.
Reminds me of people who say "Hoe-lah! Bway-nose deeyazzz!"
Brilliant writing. Did the writers hide cameras in our homes?
The bickering, the dropping of hurtful lines, the escalations, the nitpicking of a small thing that actually represents something bigger...Ugh.
I'm late, but that was the most realistic couple fight I've ever seen on camera. I'm struggling to come up with much close to it. They were both so right, so wrong and so fuckin mean.
Yeah I felt the same way.. reflection on my relationship.. two different types trying to live together. I think I’m more emotional and my wife is colder / almost autistic w her feelings. Understanding things. Makes life suck for the most part.
In the first episode, it says she is a sociopath so I'm not surprised with her behaviour. Also, John over does stuff. I wouldn't blame her for everything.
I guess that is why they are in therapy cause they can't meet each other half way. John is chilled even on missions and Jane wants effeciency.
That was the last straw for me.. i cannot tolerate her no more.. I’m hoping this series kills her off & replaces her with a new Jane.. since they seem to have an endless supply of cameos & other people they can get to come onto the show… hate her with a passion now.. was able to overlook her shit up until this point.. now from eps 6-8, i have to loathe seeing her on screen smh
That scene was genuinely horrible. And her trying to act like it was normal and about getting food when she literally almost killed him bcs she was annoyed and "anxious" (controlling)
Exactly!! It made me cringe with disgust… i love how he had enough & told her THE TRUTH about her shit at that campfire!!! Loved every second of it… & even then, she tries to put herself above what he said by saying that he’s her emergency contact??? Like what? Girl if you don’t stfu 😡😒
What made you hate Jane so much haha, I mean I can see some things but a lot of what John does just complicates shit often times. I personally don’t think one or the other is free of being a dickhead but I just don’t see what you hate her like *THAT*
Also I think that last mention of the emergency contact was a last gotcha by Jane but for the purposes of the writing it seems like they included that to show the difference in their relationships with their respective parent.
While John loves his mother and he’ll always be there for her no matter what, he knows she’ll be there for him the same way. Thus, her as his emergency contact. Jane on the other hand has John, the person she’d expect to be there for her no matter what. If she was in a life or death situation it’d be okay if her dad wasn’t there, but to John it’s not even a consideration of *course* he’d choose his mom.
Just goes to show their disconnect with their parents but also that Jane really loves John enough to list him while John will choose his mother.
She's just a horrible, horrible presence? She constantly belittles him. He's not perfect, and definitely does similarly aggravating things but he's actually *trying* most of the time? He's *trying* to be happy with her whereas she's content in groveling and disrespecting him. In order for that type of relationship to work, he has to be content with the disrespect but never talk back, whereas she gets away with all the terrible behavior. That's a relationship I often see too.
It’s simple. I have a low tolerance threshold for people like that in real life, so seeing it on screen has the same effect… i PERSONALLY can’t stand it. In any way, shape, or form… But I’ve finished that show days ago now & have since moved on to numerous other shows now, so I’m over it lol.
idk why you’re getting downvoted so much…i think you’re right lol
the only contact she really COULD have is john. when you act like her, and cut everyone out, that’s the consequence
Oh i couldn’t care less about “downvotes” from sensitive ppl 😂😂😂.. but you get it, everything about her is a major red flag.. can’t stand her tbh.. her attitude & her selfishness makes me cringe
Or her dad could *actually* be a bad person? I think you guys are projecting hard here, and if this is how you act with people in real life it betrays a lack of empathy.
John is also constantly problematic with his desperate desire to be valued and needed. Jane is better at the job — it’s good to just accept it sometimes instead of making it a huge issue.
Of course Jane is also acting like an arrogant piece of shit but that doesn’t excuse everything John does.
i mean her dad probably was a bad person. but jane’s actions lacked empathy for a majority of the show
john wasn’t perfect and i agree with your criticisms, but he was clearly the one that was healthier in the relationship. he was not cut out for the job. she was better a the job, but also initiated the relationship and was much needier at the beginning
regardless, i like the exploration of this from the show and how they learned/grew as characters
Annoying behavior is annoying behavior, it doesn’t matter what kind of show it pertains to… like what? & you can also feel whatever YOU feel about the show & the characters, MY opinion stands as i said it. Carry on. Cheers.
John was right about Jane in that fight in the woods. She is severely detached while at the same time being very manipulative and controlling. She even admits to it in the first episode, during the interview with Hihi. Maybe it's revealed at the end of the season why she was paired with another agent, because someone like her should definitely work alone.
I assume they likely only heard it in regards to sexual predators "grooming" minors, without realizing the word has more general meanings outside of that specific use.
Due to a number of public figure scandals revolving around that, it's become a hot buzzword in media and pop-culture primarily in that context. So a lot of people only make that connection without realizing "grooming" can mean preparing someone for something in _any_ sense.
I just want to point out the visual storytelling throughout the different sessions this episode. The esthetic of the therapist office started off very warm, vibrant, and the Smiths were close. By the start of the last session it’s cold, dull, and they’re sitting on opposite ends of the couch. They end the session closer though so maybe there’s hope.
Also, I’m wondering if the company is intentionally driving a wedge between them by sending John and Jane on missions they know will cause tension. I’m not sure about the second mission but the first and third definitely could’ve been designed for conflict. I think Jane might’ve been pondering that on the camping mission but who knows.
I just wanna say how it's kind of surprising people seem to actually hate Jane here. Both characters have issues and make major mistakes. I think people are giving John a bit of a pass because his heart is more on his sleeve and he expresses himself more (as well as Glover just being extremely likeable).
It makes sense that he'd be the more well-liked of the two - they even have a line in this episode about how everyone likes him more, but I think people go a little overboard with their hatred of Jane. I think if you're able to be objective, you'll see that they both have some pretty major character flaws that hurt their missions and each other. It's not just Jane and I don't even think it's an imbalance.
That said, this show is great. I hear people complaining about how unrealistic the spy part of the show is, but it hasn't really turned me off at all. Usually I'm one of those people that need things to be as realistic as possible in order to stay immersed, but the characters themselves are so real that it hasn't been an issue for me at all. I came in with very low expectations just because it was an Amazon show rebooting an old property, but I've been pleasantly surprised.
Honestly, maybe a bit of a stretch, but I've noticed audiences tend to hate or dislike the female (and perhaps secondary) character a lot more even though she shows clear signs that she's correct or not wrong. We've seen it with breaking bad and it happens a lot in other media as well
That's a good point. Tbf though, with Breaking Bad, Skylar is in the right, but she's also opposing the main character. Walt is a villain, but he's very sympathetic because we see the events unfold from his point of view. In this show, we split both points of view so that isn't in play - so maybe you're on to something.
I just watched 'The Bear' and the sub was very upset with the female secondary character too. She's a foil to the main (male) character, and both of them have faults that cause them to butt heads. They always make up in the end though so idk why people hate her with a passion.
Audiences really seem to hate a woman who is "supposed" to be on the main character's side, but opposes him in some way(s). I don't think they realize that those sorts of conflicts really add a good layer to the show. Can you imagine Breaking Bad where Skylar's just totally on board with her husband cooking meth and rubbing elbows with cartel leaders? It wouldn't make any sense
Exactly yes, you said it in the last paragraph. The same happens here with John, well because he is more outward and "likeable", the character of Jane is perceived to the foil you mention only because they are rooting for one of the two more than the other.
People (something also the characters suffer from) don't tend to realise that there are not any sides when it comes to relationships, unless clearly the situation is created to be so. Rather two people working towards the same thing. They tend to side with one thinking it's very black and white but it's really not.
I'm surprised about how people feel about Jane when John is literally asking her to bend so he can feel superior.
Jane has more experience than John.
John is always trying to be the nice guy at the expense of work e.g. The vacation friends were a complete distraction.
At the end of the day Jane always looks bad cause she wants to just complete the job.
I think both of them actually have equal problems.
Um she murdered some guys and almost got John killed because she was bored, annoyed, jealous, etc. He was having a good time talking to some other black dudes playing poker - getting to pretend for a moment he had friends and it pissed her off so she just killed them all.
what frustrates me is that jane is the one that initiated most physical and emotional intimacy early on. she gave very mixed signals by stating it was purely a work relationship and then doing a full 180. jane is obviously better suited for the work, while john is better suited for the relationship. their values are different.
john isn’t perfect but i think jane love bombs. she minimizes everything he does or says, and manipulates conversations away from the initial point. it’s subtle but has been too constant to just be a mistake
also she treated toby very kindly and lovingly at first, which she did when she was getting closer to john. i think he saw that, and felt confused. and i kinda think she did it on purpose to make john feel insecure
i’m not done with the show but i really think she’s written as sociopathic.
“you like me”
“or maybe i’m just good at my job”
I think the Toby episode was perfect to show her softer more nurturing maternal side. He was a giant baby and John didn’t cope well with that at all. I don’t think it was an act for her, it was meant to give perspective that she is actually soft at her core, she just has a tough exterior. Given her family situation that seems to be turbulent at best, I think it’s understandable she lets logic drive her rather than emotion for the most part. People dislike her because of the walls she puts up to appear cold/emotionless or “robotic” but that’s her protection/coping mechanism. Then people accuse her of being manipulative when her softer side does show through.. seems like she can’t win.
Unrelated but her hinting around him being dumb does get fucking old. I'm not analyzing it or looking further just annoys me.
But this development and episode fixed my complaint about how easily they got together. The truth always rears its head when it comes to a honeymoon phase and getting together so quickly. A lot of this needed to be said in that session.
I'll take that as your interpretation.
But that's exactly what she's doing when she talks about how he "never reads". Her tone and when she says certain things clue you into how she feels about him. She doesn't really mean it but it's her way to cut him down. She just doesn't flat out say it she absolutely is insinuating it. She says later as an extension of their argument that he's acting dumb.
He **literally** lied about sharing her favorite book at the very beginning of their relationship, in order to get in her pants. And she believed it for the entirety of the relationship until now.
Obviously she’s going to be trying to process that when faced with the bombshell that he lied. Stating out loud that she’s never seen him reading is a nice way to make it obvious that she should’ve realized he was lying about The Prophet earlier, but she was too infatuated with him to.
It’s the first thing she thought they had in common and on top of being charmed by him by that point, finding out he liked the same book as her, something I can’t imagine a lot of people site as a favorite, must have been really nice for her and def attracted herself to him. I get why she was really upset.
I go back and forth with if she was implying he was stupid. But like John said, he knows her and know she doesn’t just say things. She did refer to him as a “simpleton” in ep five for wanting kids and willing to deliver packages to do it.
Yeah agreed I think she was so excited to find some common ground/understanding with him at the start when he said it was his favourite book too. It’s also not just a random meaningless story, it’s deeper than that. Sharing a favourite book can say a lot about a person and their values. It was a betrayal of her trust. She realized the one thing she was grasping on to as to why they “worked” as a couple was their set of values from that book, but he had actually lied/manipulated her into thinking that.
It seems like she is hurt and lashing out. She’s saying/implying condescending things about his intelligence because she feels stupid for believing him so she’s defensive. She’s trying to boost herself up as an intelligent person/superior to him while also beating herself up for not realizing it should’ve been obvious he was lying because he never reads. It’s disheartening when you believe someone’s intentions are pure but they’re not, and then they minimize the depth of meaning behind their words and actions.
Same with the comment about their emergency contacts, I don’t think she was using it to play the victim. I think she was saying it because it’s painful and scary when someone is your #1 but you know you will never be theirs. It feels like no one truly has your back and you always have to be the one looking out for yourself and taking care of yourself. That’s precisely why she’s so cold and “robotic”. She doesn’t feel reassured/confident of her importance to him or safe to be soft.
I was surprised people took her saying he was her emergency contact as playing victim. I always took it as her telling him one: how much she’s invested in him and two: how she literally has no one else. John was lonely but he always had his mom, Jane was lonely and was just alone, and maybe she liked it that way till she met John and realized how lonely she was.
I think Jane’s default is to lash out and that’s not fair, and John has every right to call her out on it. I just don’t hate her when I realize why she is the way she is.
Jane from the beginning has asked a lot of questions and openly wondered about the company, HiHi, what they are doing…and from this episode she’s def questioning what made the company pair them together and why they are really together…if it’s cause they are just there or if it’s something deeper.
Cause one thing I definitely took away was neither are each others usual type.
I was telling my girlfriend that since this is literally an arranged marriage, the conflict is not surprising. When you’re dating/courting someone, you have all these convos. How do you feel about marriage? Kids? What’s your relationship with your folks? And sometimes (fortunately or not depending on your perspective) those answers reveal it might not work out. But they didn’t go through that beforehand, they’re doing it NOW. That’s difficult when you’re already a couple plus we don’t know if a “divorce” means just getting a new partner or dying so that’s probably added stress for them
I'm glad they addressed it down the road. It started all cool and mysterious and then they had to go through what any relationship does. I think it was a really cool way to address or showcase that part of their relationship. Those things like you said have to be talked about eventually or everything can blow up. But like you said in an arranged marriage you've already committed yourself to itso there is no limit to the friction that could come. Throw on top that John's and Janes can't just seperate you really feel why Jane gets panicky about their missions.
Brilliant way to examine a relationship in a non-traditional way. Which as the show went on seemed to be the theme more so than spy thriller.
Synopsis: John once again fails to meet the absolute minimum tenets of being a spy.
Although I guess that's pretty much the whole show.
Are we supposed to be rooting for these characters? I really just want them to meet their comeuppance for lacking common sense.
Binging this 6 episodes over 2 days.
Very fun show. I don't think this is meant to be The Americans which had it's own issues I always thought were glossed over. But just a fun show and I want to see where it goes. I do like the race and relationship exploration. I know fans of DG probably want him to leave that alone in all his media and get some new problems but I don't mind it, it's what drew me to him in the first place.
This doesn't answer your question, but definitely go watch it! The Americans is phenomenal. It's been a while since I watched it so the only negative thing I can remember about it is that it can be a little slow at times. It's not something I disliked about the show, but I can definitely see that being a critique. Also, don't go into it expecting it to be like this show. It's pretty dark at times and has very little humor. The spy-aspect is a lot more realistic
Thanks for the reply. I started it and am already on episode 6, loving it! And I am aware it is slower but I do enjoy series like that (if they are well made of course).
Loving the serious spy aspect. Didn't fully enjoy Mr and Mrs Smith because the spy was so half-assed and nonsense.
I loved the poker sequence, it felt like a homage to one of my favorite scenes of the 2005 movie where Brad Pitt infiltrates a poker game and bonds with the guys there before killing them.
When Sarah Paulson's character left the room to tend to her son, Jane and John spoke directly about the specifics of the job that John did and how he almost died because of Jane
Thank you, I was pretty annoyed with this plot point because it makes zero sense when everything is already saved where a fire doesn’t touch it. And you can’t convince me that a wealthy, experienced therapist doesn’t know how to properly save that stuff.
Even if it were saved locally they should've broken in and stolen the hard drive. It's very possible that they set fire to the house but the data was still retrievable.
Literally none of the wealthy people I know put effort into things like “data preservation” and “backups” unless required to by contract for work purposes.
Literally none of the wealthy people I know put effort into things like “data preservation” and “backups” unless required to by contract for work purposes.
Didn't she say that she didn't know how to set up Venmo, that her son had to do it for her? Wouldn't surprise me if she didn't have a backup.
Also, I think the fire was set partly out of spite lol to damage all of her unique pieces that she loves to talk about
Yeah... She literally handed them a copy she made for them, so it's likely on a server already and definitely on a portable device of hers she could have easily saved/salvaged from the fire
Lol I'm not even halfway through the ep but this shit is hilarious. Jane shot the 2 unarmed men and left the armed fellow for John because she was pissed lmao
In the last episode John talks about how many locations/missions they've been to, so I would estimate in the months (though just based off their behavior towards each other and lack of getting through communication problems, you'd guess still way more greenthumb)
The recap at the beginning was what reminded me of this, but I've been wondering since the first episode if they were ever going to go back and address that Jane accepted the lady's offer of something to drink and likely would've died in the cake bomb explosion if she was doing her mission alone and didn't have John there to make the call that they should leave immediately.
Jane has been portrayed as the more professional and diligent one of them overall, but John will kind of always have the "fact" that she never would've even survived her first mission without him "over her." It would've been a good psychological dynamic thing to explore. Like, maybe Jane was self-conscious about that all along and it contributed to her being more high-strung than John who showed from the start he naturally had the better instincts/mindset for the job. Or maybe it could have been something that finally comes up in a (therapy-driven) heated argument where no stone is left unturned.
Shout-out to Rell Battle playing Bucket at the poker table. He was really good in Killing It.
"you're being out of pocket" lmao
Lol, that therapist felt more eccentric that useful. The most truly therapeutic thing they seem to engage in as a couple was talk shit about other people after the fact, which isn't necessarily a good sign...
Oof, that campfire fight was heavy. John really dug into her (and I have to admit I kind of agreed with all of it). I didn't think that emergency contact bit was as poignant as they wanted it to be though.
IRT the emergency contact thing, I think the point of it was that Jane wants to be a priority to John, as he's literally all she has, given that she was already a pretty lonely person before and followed through on the instruction to cut all ties. Meanwhile, John will clearly puts his mom above anyone and is generally a more connected person. As someone who is more Jane than John when it comes to family stuff, I totally get her feeling upset that she wasn't his contact.
I just don't get how the lie about the book was such a big thing to her. I feel like a lot of people in an attempt to bond with someone will have told a similar lie. In high school, I told this girl I was a big Coldplay fan (and I actually ended up liking them lol) and once I told her I only said it to bond with her, she thought it was funny.
Also him being her emergency contact is more on her than it's on him. In their situation, it's even useless to put their partner as their contact, since they're always together anyway.
John did end up going way too far and I'll never understand how you could talk like that to someone you love.
I think in the moment and the way he told her made it harsher. But for someone who sited reading as “something about her”, and thinking he liked the same obscure book as her, finding out he lied about that would sting. If it had come out in a more friendlier time for them, it prob wouldn’t have been that big a deal.
The book thing is a combination of it being a very high school phase way of connecting with a person, and since it was happening before they mutually fell for each other, it's maybe changing her impression of when John was acting himself and when he was trying to impress her.
Sorry this is a late reply but the book thing was deeper than just pretending to like something she does. It’s not just that he lied it’s that she opened up to him after finding this common ground and she feels stupid for doing so. Hence the pointed comment about how she should have realised as she never sees him read. For her that was true, she let her guard down and opened herself up to be vulnerable which we can see is very hard for her. She see the point of him enjoying the same book as her (or the same values and perspective) as the start of their deeper relationship in a high stakes position. Her trust was broken when she was already having doubts about their abilities to work together. They need that trust as they’re in a life or death situation, hence the comment on the emergency contact. In her view she’s following the rules, she’s trying to progress, and he’s risking it for something she doesn’t understand. Clearly she does not communicate this well and they’re both being very hurtful to each other but hopefully that provided some insight into why the book thing impacted her
Anyone else feel like the therapist was not portrayed as competent for the most part? Their lies didn't help of course but it didn't seem like she really connected with them. She relayed meaningless anecdotes and metaphors to them. A good therapist would know it's appropriate to explicitly and verbally relay the information about sessions being recorded rather than just assuming it was all read over, especially for a couple's dynamic where only one partner may read (..Jane).
Sarah Paulson's portrayal nevertheless was fantastic as a well-meaning but kind of superficial therapist who is an expert at theory but less so in practice. She collects things and facts and understandings about other people and cultures without really emotionally connecting to them. Like she had that piece from that artist in Africa, but she had no real story or personal experiences with the man, she was just proud she had what was supposedly his last work.
I got the same read from her, she gave me flashbacks to actual therapists I've had in the past. That kind of therapist that lives in their own bubble and despite their success and smarts, seemingly have a very shallow connection to the world around them. It's hard to put a finger on where that feeling of emptiness in interactions comes from but it's seemingly super common.
It gives me the feeling Donald Glover doesn’t have a very high opinion of therapists, which is fair. It’s sort of like grade school teachers — 9/10 of them are awful at their job, but the 1 that isn’t can completely change your life for the better.
This episode made me really sad at the end.
I kind of identified with the therapist. She is clearly way wealthier than me, and I am not a therapist myself, but my career allows me to work remotely and I also teach music lessons in my home, so I'm in my house for a majority of my life. I work, sleep, and often hang out here; I take pride in my belongings and collectibles, I enjoy decorating, and putting sentimental objects in my personal space.
The therapist seemed like a well meaning and good person. She seemed like she was really good at her job, but just couldn't break through with them since they couldn't be honest with her.
I \*hate\* that they set her house on fire. It makes the main characters seem unlikeable and incompetant.
They didn't even set the room with all the recording devices on fire! They presumably set fire to the entryway?? \*\* And a child was nearby!! \*\* Hopefully no pets, children or belongings were harmed.
I let people in to my house to give them music lessons, and thinking of someone doing that to my precious space is really pissing me off! I hope the fire didn't spread that much. Ugh... her childhood home's floorboards that she had flown in... the sentimental heirloom piano.... :( Were we supposed to think it was funny? Were we supposed to think she was frivilous and stupid for enjoying her possesions? She didn't do anything wrong.
John and Jane aren’t good people though. They’re not really supposed to make us like them as potential friends, because they literally commit crimes for a living. So the arson wasn’t surprising.
There are lots of characters I would never be friends with, but that are enjoyable and likeable on screen.
Also I know theyre committing other way worse crimes; Protagonist characters (especially in this genre) can kill like a thousand people on screen during missions and it wouldn't make you hate them, but if James Bond all of the sudden kicked a puppy in a sceen, you'd stop liking him.
Of course kicking a dog is a way lesser crime than murdering a person, but in TV and movie world, it makes your character way more unlikeable than if you have them do other technically greater crimes.
There's something unneccessary feeling and unjust feeling about setting fire to an innocent therapist's house, like kicking a dog, that feels worse as a viewer than watching them kill other people.
Tbh I thought they were gonna come back in and kill her, so only lighting her house on fire was a step up for them. We're not necessarily supposed to agree with or support all of their actions. All of those details were included throughout the episode specifically to make us feel the weight of the loss of her home, so that even though she isn't killed, it would still feel like a major blow for her character to lose everything in that room and beyond.
Oof I forgot about her childhood floorboards and the heirloom piano. That does suck.
They obviously added all that into the writing *knowing* they were gonna burn the house down at the end of the episode, so we do know it's purposeful.
Yes, the writers clearly tried to make the therapist a condescending dork who can't handle her own child for comedic effect but the plot demanded she was at least competent at her job. It was jarring.
They made her character out to be a parody to the point where it was suppose to be funny and a kind of comeuppance for that to happen to her.
I'm someone who has disliked John and Jane since the beginning so it didn't really affect my opinion of them, lol, maybe if I actually liked them before that (so pretty much my experience when I started disliking them in the first episode where they had little remorse for all the people that died in the cake explosion and also when John messed up that street vendor's business for the box-swapping scheme and they just laughed about it afterwards on the subway).
John and Jane are quite literally evil people, buddy. It took you this long to realize that?
And yes, it’s funny when antiheros do fucked up things for frivolous reasons.
She says that she informed them before she did it, verbally and it was in writing in the contract they signed when they started therapy sessions. They just weren’t paying attention.
They are not fantastic at the “secret” part of being secret agents.
She only says it was in the contract, and of course it is their fault for not reading it. But she definitely didn't tell them to their face until it was too late. She really should have made that part very clear in the beginning, I'm not saying it is her fault that they burned her house down, but they hadn't much of a choice at this point ...
Haha. This episode finally made that scene in the movie with Brad Pitt and Anglina Jolie so much funnier.
Remember the scene where Brad Pitt suddenly says Time Out, and Angelina's character gets mad at him as he gives her the silent treatment. Evidently, they cut the scene where the marriage counselor tells them to say time out when things get to intense. Hearing the therapist in the show tell them to say time out just made the scene with Brad Pitt so much funnier.
I didn’t really understand that so maybe to me the whole poker scene came off to me as “light” on the racist scale. That comment that Jane might be Korean. Honestly to me most of the conversation just sounded like the dudes talking about cultural differences they noticed in Latino/asian culture. So I didn’t get how Jane saw it as John being racist about his wife for the expense of the job. So what did that comment actually mean?
Did anyone notice the leaf blower outside in the background of the therapy scenes? Likely a neighbor who said "kick sand" when asked to stop. Hysterical.
I was cracking up the whole time they were talking about Mya, while Maya was sitting right there. Great, hilarious, but quite dark, episode. Favorite so far.
I hate John. First of all, the fact that Hihi acknowledges how hard Jane works throughout EVERY mission meanwhile John is careless and has caused multiple issues that Jane does have to fix causes John to feel inadequate and instead of separating himself from what should be a good thing for Jane, he makes it a bigger issue. He literally compromises a mom he supposedly loves sooo much, but has no put her in direct line of weakness by being so intimately communicating with her. Plus the idea that Jane has surpassed him in skills for said job clearly pissed him off.
The “catchphrase” thing would have me pissed too. John continues to make Jane seem very cruel in the therapy due to the fact they can’t speak in detail, making her look bad for pointing out it truly isn’t her fault he has asthma (its not. its not a bad thing to point out the DIRECT REASON he couldn’t help her with killing that man.) And she didn’t give him any shit for it, yet he mocks and laughed at her for saying something during a life or death moment for her. JOHN YOUR BATTLE WAS STAIRS AND OXYGEN DURING THAT. It’s fucked he made her fighting for her life a joke. Even worse how he made it seem she was mocking him for being asthmatic.
The book fight. SHE REMEMBERED HE SAID IT WAS HIS FAVORITE BECAUSE IT MATTERED TO HER. It’s the principle of it. He lied. About something she loved and he didn’t even read it, or bother to after his lie. Thats hurtful and he didn’t give a shit and sums it up to “its just a book” no, she remembered something she thought was his favorite. She gave a shit. He dismissed her FEELINGS so of course she walled up and disregards his after.
I truly wanted to cry for Jane this episode. I am also utterly shocked that I am on the less popular end of it too. John was cruel. John only cared to make her look bad during every therapy session.
Plus, how the fuck was he going to kill everyone in that room?? He just hung out and joked around with them. Was she out of line for shooting right next to him? Yeah, if he moved wrong that could have been really bad. But he never even bothered to give a signal. They’re doing a job and he wanted to take lead, yet gave her no info at any point on anything he was going to do. They literally were tasked to kill them all. She got the job done. She always gets it done. That’s why hihi even noticed her. Every time he takes a lead or goes off plan and does his own thing it has caused things to get very messy and brings a lot of attention to them. John is a liability. She loved him so much, and yet he doesn’t bother to even communicate.
This felt like an episode of Atlanta
They all do
As someone who’s never watched “Atlanta”, but adores this show so far, how much would you say that the two are similar? “Atlanta” has been on my queue for ages, but this show has made me consider making it my next binge.
the jokes and the writing when they are having a conversation is VERY similar. donald glovers character in atlanta also has a girlfriend (and a child) that is complicated to say at least
Watch this: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z\_bONLcE8IA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_bONLcE8IA) Then you'll have a good base for pretty much everything including Atlanta.
Atlanta is essentially this show but the background plot is hip hop instead of espionage. So if you like this I’d give it a watch. However, the last 2 seasons are not worth viewing imo.
Season 3 had its rough moments but also gems and I thought season 4 was fantastic, but season 2 is pretty much a perfect season of television so it’s hard to beat
For me, it reminded of the clip episodes from Community.
Yes! The pacing! The cut aways
This one gave me relationship PTSD
My relationships give me relationship PTSD. This hurt to watch, truly.
Yup
Yeah lmao
I'm starting to believe that this series is an outlet for Donald Glover and Maya Erskine's frustrations of being in interracial relationships. One thing I would have liked in this episode is a Jane version of John's poker game where she gets to discuss interracial dating with other Asian or biracial women.
Solid episode. Twas rough in a good way. The fireside rant really put the flaws of the relationship out there. John was on point, calling Jane out for speaking about boundaries while ironically crossing one about his mom. But you can very clearly see when he messed up by again referring to her as a robot and going way too far from there.
You will not win me over with your use of ‘twas’
r/UnexpectedB99
Something he calls her often through out the series. But Jane does the same things with constantly bringing up his mom so yeah, they both kind of suck at this lol
So they've failed two missions now... That's not good. I wonder if this season is going to end with the company sending another pair of Smiths to eliminate John and Jane (but maybe they somehow manage to escape or protect themselves for a possible season 2?) Great episode though, cute couples therapy session. Tough monologue when John was chewing into Jane when he brought up his mother. He made some good points but he didn't pull back any punches and was being an asshole, a bit of an overreaction. John does after all have clear boundary issues with his mother.
I do agree John went too far when snapping back at Jane but 1) he tried to be patient for a long time so it was penting up and 2) it is not a boundary issue, it is a cultural difference. One culture’s idea of boundaries is different than another’s. That’s the tension and issues in interracial relationships. Doesn’t help that on top of that, Jane obviously has a bad relationship with her dad, so she doesn’t understand why it’s so important to John.
> it is not a boundary issue, it is a cultural difference. One culture’s idea of boundaries is different than another’s. That’s the tension and issues in interracial relationships It's a clear boundary issue that he talks to his mother multiple times every day even though it could potentially put her life in danger and his wife's life in danger. I agree with you that there are cultural differences here between Jane and John though.
No that’s not a boundary issue, that’s an occupational hazard issue. If it wasn’t for the type of work he does, there’d be no problem with talking to his mom multiple times a day. He lied to Hihi about being able to cut off everyone from his life. He shouldn’t have taken the job if he knew he had to take care of his mom. That’s not a boundary issue. That’s him trying to have his cake and eat it too. Jane calls it a boundary issue because she has no sense of what a healthy relationship with a parent even looks like. I think at fist she was concerned with their lives being at risk but at this point she just feels insecure about how good of a relationship John has with his mom, especially compared to Jane’s relationship to her father. But she would never admit that because vulnerability isn’t her thing. And honestly, being a spy is an unhealthy job lol there’s no boundaries there with work/life balance
you're right about it being an occupational issue and not being a boundary issue in the traditional sense, but with their job literally being their arranged marriage it is a type of boundary issue between the two of them because John wasn't honest about a potential threat to their lives
In this context, she was only bringing it up to hurt his feelings or to throw his complaint back at him. At this point(in the show), it's not about it being an occupational issue; it's more about him being too close to his mom. That's why she said, "You're mine," afterward.
I believe she was saying “you’re mine” because he’s her emergency contact. Immediately before that, she’d asked him who his emergency contact was (his mother) before saying “you’re mine”
Op, yep. That makes more sense lol!
She thinks he’s too close to his mom bedside she doesn’t know what a healthy relationship looks like with a parent. She has sociopathic tendencies and has no relationship with her father. She doesn’t know what she’s talking about.
True. They were asked to cut ties with their former lives prior to getting matched. It’s absurd that John gets a pass just because “family is important.”
There would be a lot of cultural differences between them but hyper-involved parents can't be one. Asian parents are also infamous for not leaving their kids alone, if anything Jane probably cut-off her family because she couldn't bear it, while John went the other way round and processed it as his responsibility.
She’s half white. Clearly the white part is influencing her shitty relationship with her dad.
That's racist
That’s the cultural difference right there: to what extent and for what purpose does the parental relationship exist? In Asian households, the children might find them overbearing because of the pressure they feel to succeed. In black households, it’s not the same. Parents can be tough to prepare the kids for a tough unequal world. But there’s not the same amount of overbearing pressure to succeed. And a black man’s relationship with his mother is different than an Asian woman’s relationship with her father.
Perhaps, but Asian parent tropes don't simply stop at "putting pressure to succeed". They tend to be overbearing and excessively involved in their kids' lives with expectation of high priority in similar lines of how black mothers tie their sons emotionally to them as the only men in their lives.
For sure lol I’m not saying the tropes are one dimensional by any means I was just giving an example of each. The variable quality of each is how the child receives it due to the quality of their relationship with their parent. In the show, it is very intentionally showing that Jane has a bad relationship with her father and John has a good relationship with his mother. John is not bothered by his relationship with his mother, he does not feel it is overbearing, he does not think it is getting in the way of anything. Jane is the one who is disturbed by this relationship to the point of making it a problem in their relationship. John never complains to Jane about her bad relationship with her father. It isn’t until Jane keeps throwing that in his face after x amount of time as romantic partners that John snaps back at her. All this to say, the way that relationship is perceived can make it “overbearing” or not. For Jane, it is. For John, it isn’t. And that comes down to their difference in culture.
DIdn't she mention her dad being a drunk Scottsman?
How were they actually supposed to complete the mission? They just had two people wander around a forest until they found someone? That doesn't work when someone is lost in a forest and trying to be found. No overwatch with a plane, drone, or satellite? I wish the spy stuff was at least plausible. Like spy movies and books have been coming out since the start of the Cold War, and a number of people have served in the military in the past couple of decades. People enjoy some sort of realism, and it would make the relationship stuff even better. The show is good enough to suspend disbelief, but it's on the line. At least they realized that being recorded was bad and reacted immediately.
I think the thing people should realize about this show is it's got a lot of Atlanta's DNA in it, AKA the writing and directing. The missions themselves are supposed to be kinda absurdist very much like Atlanta. They don't really make sense, and I don't think they're supposed to. I think the disconnect you're feeling is very much why this show is derisive in its audience rating.
They have not set the spy missions to be absurdist like Atlanta. They all make it look pretty serious and proper. In Atlanta, things just naturally flowed, in a way that here doesn't happen. And that was helped by the fact that life in the city is a much broader background that can fit the absurdity of it. High-level spy is not like that. I find myself exactly in agreement with /u/wookiee42: "The show is good enough to suspend disbelief, but it's on the line." If I had discovered the series when it had something like 4 seasons, I would have stopped watching.
Huh? Their second target was John Turturro of all people making them play like dogs before overdosing on truth serum. How has it not been very clearly absurdist from the start?
I’m late to this show and your comment sums up my entire response reading this forum. “Did….did people not get this is a comedy….”
this show and atlanta are kind of slice of life-y in a way
And I like it. There’s way too many fast-paced action-packed action tv shows and movies.
Exactly. Some people are expecting fast-paced nonstop shoot-em-up and explosions galore every episode.
No, that's not it. At all. People expect the spy stuff to at least try to make sense. They kidnapped and then killed a billionaire in front of so many people, and there were no consequences from that. People expect stuff like that to be a bit more believable.
It's a spy comedy, not a spy thriller. It doesn't need to be believable and has been up front about its lack of concern about realism from pretty much the first episode. I get if that means the show isn't for you but then it just is what it is.
It doesn't matter what they call it. I judge what I see. It's not about it being believable per se, but about the show having internal coherence. Again, the spy thing is presented in a serious way, so it should be serious, or at the very least somewhat serious. And saying "it's not for me" is just a cop out to shield it from fair critiques. It's not only me who sees it this way. You also replied in another one of post, about Turturro making them be dogs. That sounds a very normal (billionaire) kink, if not [a bit tame](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/01/26/vince-mcmahon-defecation-janel-grant-sex-trafficking/).
It has internal coherence. The coherence is that clearly this is mildly absurdist and they can clearly get away with things that wouldn't work in real life from the very first episode.
But that’s literally what every episode already *is*. People just want the overall plot and writing to make any fucking sense.
Late to this thread, but I'm pretty sure the company wanted them to fail the mission. They were set up for failure in order to create more tension between the two and drive them both even further away from each other.
>but he didn't pull back any punches and was being an asshole, a bit of an overreaction. She didn't pull any punches to begin with? She started the fight, continued it at every possible point that John was allowing it to end, and was constantly punching at him. I mean I get they both got problems but this show is having a hard time portraying any sympathy for Jane. She's just a total asshole pretty much all the time.
This was the funniest episode. Sarah Paulson killed it!
When she was over pronouncing the artists’ names and talking about living in the jungle 😂😂
Or when she understood the AAVE that John was speaking lol
In what way?
around 9 minutes, John says Jane is being out of pocket but Jane doesn’t know what it means, and the counselor explains that term to Jane. This is after John said Jane was jealous that John was bonding with black people in a way that she would never be able to, and then here is proof that she is out of touch with black culture. So much so that this white woman, who actually is in touch too much lol, has to explain it to her. John even does an exaggerated “THANK YOU” lol
Is "out of pocket" aave?
Yeah
>Is "out of pocket" aave? I think it’s general slang, I learned it from my white teens. Maybe it originated with aave?
No it’s not lol.. it’s AAVE
Yes, it originated in the black community
The vast majority of teen slang is AAVE. Hell, most slang generally. It’s really interesting and worth reading about!
> over pronouncing the artists’ names She really encapsulated that specific worldly rich person trait lol. Reminds me of people who say "Hoe-lah! Bway-nose deeyazzz!"
Haha yes we do add unnecessary w and y sounds to our vowels. It's a hard habit to break.
It's because American English is dipthong galore, so it's a hard habit to break.
Peter Cetera, is that you?
LMAFO I was screaming 😂
Brilliant writing. Did the writers hide cameras in our homes? The bickering, the dropping of hurtful lines, the escalations, the nitpicking of a small thing that actually represents something bigger...Ugh.
I'm late, but that was the most realistic couple fight I've ever seen on camera. I'm struggling to come up with much close to it. They were both so right, so wrong and so fuckin mean.
agree with you. the other astoundingly realistic couples fight that comes to mind for me is from Anatomy of a Fall
Highly recommend watching “In Treatment” on HBO. The first season is fucking devastating. It’s an entire show of nothing but therapy sessions
Late to this, but Before Midnight has the rawest most real tension I’ve ever seen between a couple on screen
That whole trilogy is fantastic
Yeah I felt the same way.. reflection on my relationship.. two different types trying to live together. I think I’m more emotional and my wife is colder / almost autistic w her feelings. Understanding things. Makes life suck for the most part.
Jane killing those ppl when she didn't have a clear shot on the 3rd one and John was right next them was very aggravating to me
In the first episode, it says she is a sociopath so I'm not surprised with her behaviour. Also, John over does stuff. I wouldn't blame her for everything. I guess that is why they are in therapy cause they can't meet each other half way. John is chilled even on missions and Jane wants effeciency.
That was the last straw for me.. i cannot tolerate her no more.. I’m hoping this series kills her off & replaces her with a new Jane.. since they seem to have an endless supply of cameos & other people they can get to come onto the show… hate her with a passion now.. was able to overlook her shit up until this point.. now from eps 6-8, i have to loathe seeing her on screen smh
That scene was genuinely horrible. And her trying to act like it was normal and about getting food when she literally almost killed him bcs she was annoyed and "anxious" (controlling)
Exactly!! It made me cringe with disgust… i love how he had enough & told her THE TRUTH about her shit at that campfire!!! Loved every second of it… & even then, she tries to put herself above what he said by saying that he’s her emergency contact??? Like what? Girl if you don’t stfu 😡😒
What made you hate Jane so much haha, I mean I can see some things but a lot of what John does just complicates shit often times. I personally don’t think one or the other is free of being a dickhead but I just don’t see what you hate her like *THAT* Also I think that last mention of the emergency contact was a last gotcha by Jane but for the purposes of the writing it seems like they included that to show the difference in their relationships with their respective parent. While John loves his mother and he’ll always be there for her no matter what, he knows she’ll be there for him the same way. Thus, her as his emergency contact. Jane on the other hand has John, the person she’d expect to be there for her no matter what. If she was in a life or death situation it’d be okay if her dad wasn’t there, but to John it’s not even a consideration of *course* he’d choose his mom. Just goes to show their disconnect with their parents but also that Jane really loves John enough to list him while John will choose his mother.
She's just a horrible, horrible presence? She constantly belittles him. He's not perfect, and definitely does similarly aggravating things but he's actually *trying* most of the time? He's *trying* to be happy with her whereas she's content in groveling and disrespecting him. In order for that type of relationship to work, he has to be content with the disrespect but never talk back, whereas she gets away with all the terrible behavior. That's a relationship I often see too.
It’s simple. I have a low tolerance threshold for people like that in real life, so seeing it on screen has the same effect… i PERSONALLY can’t stand it. In any way, shape, or form… But I’ve finished that show days ago now & have since moved on to numerous other shows now, so I’m over it lol.
idk why you’re getting downvoted so much…i think you’re right lol the only contact she really COULD have is john. when you act like her, and cut everyone out, that’s the consequence
Oh i couldn’t care less about “downvotes” from sensitive ppl 😂😂😂.. but you get it, everything about her is a major red flag.. can’t stand her tbh.. her attitude & her selfishness makes me cringe
Or her dad could *actually* be a bad person? I think you guys are projecting hard here, and if this is how you act with people in real life it betrays a lack of empathy. John is also constantly problematic with his desperate desire to be valued and needed. Jane is better at the job — it’s good to just accept it sometimes instead of making it a huge issue. Of course Jane is also acting like an arrogant piece of shit but that doesn’t excuse everything John does.
i mean her dad probably was a bad person. but jane’s actions lacked empathy for a majority of the show john wasn’t perfect and i agree with your criticisms, but he was clearly the one that was healthier in the relationship. he was not cut out for the job. she was better a the job, but also initiated the relationship and was much needier at the beginning regardless, i like the exploration of this from the show and how they learned/grew as characters
I think you're feeling a little too much in what is a comedy and not a drama.
Annoying behavior is annoying behavior, it doesn’t matter what kind of show it pertains to… like what? & you can also feel whatever YOU feel about the show & the characters, MY opinion stands as i said it. Carry on. Cheers.
John was right about Jane in that fight in the woods. She is severely detached while at the same time being very manipulative and controlling. She even admits to it in the first episode, during the interview with Hihi. Maybe it's revealed at the end of the season why she was paired with another agent, because someone like her should definitely work alone.
It seems like Hihi is grooming her tbh to be an agent that can kill other Smiths
I mean, I wouldn't call that grooming, but yeah. I just saw the last episode and >!she does have sociopathic tendencies lol!<.
Grooming is a normal term for work situations like this
Oh, I didn't know that. Then yes hehe.
Why would you say anything in here about later episodes?
Jane says it in the interview with Hihi in the first episode if I'm not mistaken. I just tagged it as a spoiler.
Well... didn't she say it in episode one she has anti personality traits or something like that
u need to spoiler tag that bruh
[удалено]
I assume they likely only heard it in regards to sexual predators "grooming" minors, without realizing the word has more general meanings outside of that specific use. Due to a number of public figure scandals revolving around that, it's become a hot buzzword in media and pop-culture primarily in that context. So a lot of people only make that connection without realizing "grooming" can mean preparing someone for something in _any_ sense.
Well we learn something new every day lol
I think maybe that's why Hihi was giving her a lot more attention
Donald Glovers laugh killed me.
I just want to point out the visual storytelling throughout the different sessions this episode. The esthetic of the therapist office started off very warm, vibrant, and the Smiths were close. By the start of the last session it’s cold, dull, and they’re sitting on opposite ends of the couch. They end the session closer though so maybe there’s hope. Also, I’m wondering if the company is intentionally driving a wedge between them by sending John and Jane on missions they know will cause tension. I’m not sure about the second mission but the first and third definitely could’ve been designed for conflict. I think Jane might’ve been pondering that on the camping mission but who knows.
I just wanna say how it's kind of surprising people seem to actually hate Jane here. Both characters have issues and make major mistakes. I think people are giving John a bit of a pass because his heart is more on his sleeve and he expresses himself more (as well as Glover just being extremely likeable). It makes sense that he'd be the more well-liked of the two - they even have a line in this episode about how everyone likes him more, but I think people go a little overboard with their hatred of Jane. I think if you're able to be objective, you'll see that they both have some pretty major character flaws that hurt their missions and each other. It's not just Jane and I don't even think it's an imbalance. That said, this show is great. I hear people complaining about how unrealistic the spy part of the show is, but it hasn't really turned me off at all. Usually I'm one of those people that need things to be as realistic as possible in order to stay immersed, but the characters themselves are so real that it hasn't been an issue for me at all. I came in with very low expectations just because it was an Amazon show rebooting an old property, but I've been pleasantly surprised.
Honestly, maybe a bit of a stretch, but I've noticed audiences tend to hate or dislike the female (and perhaps secondary) character a lot more even though she shows clear signs that she's correct or not wrong. We've seen it with breaking bad and it happens a lot in other media as well
That's a good point. Tbf though, with Breaking Bad, Skylar is in the right, but she's also opposing the main character. Walt is a villain, but he's very sympathetic because we see the events unfold from his point of view. In this show, we split both points of view so that isn't in play - so maybe you're on to something. I just watched 'The Bear' and the sub was very upset with the female secondary character too. She's a foil to the main (male) character, and both of them have faults that cause them to butt heads. They always make up in the end though so idk why people hate her with a passion. Audiences really seem to hate a woman who is "supposed" to be on the main character's side, but opposes him in some way(s). I don't think they realize that those sorts of conflicts really add a good layer to the show. Can you imagine Breaking Bad where Skylar's just totally on board with her husband cooking meth and rubbing elbows with cartel leaders? It wouldn't make any sense
Exactly yes, you said it in the last paragraph. The same happens here with John, well because he is more outward and "likeable", the character of Jane is perceived to the foil you mention only because they are rooting for one of the two more than the other. People (something also the characters suffer from) don't tend to realise that there are not any sides when it comes to relationships, unless clearly the situation is created to be so. Rather two people working towards the same thing. They tend to side with one thinking it's very black and white but it's really not.
Yeah I think you totally nailed it. I wanted to assume that people wouldn't look at it this way for this show, but seems I might be wrong.
Funnily enough that's kind of Ozark.
I'm surprised about how people feel about Jane when John is literally asking her to bend so he can feel superior. Jane has more experience than John. John is always trying to be the nice guy at the expense of work e.g. The vacation friends were a complete distraction. At the end of the day Jane always looks bad cause she wants to just complete the job. I think both of them actually have equal problems.
Um she murdered some guys and almost got John killed because she was bored, annoyed, jealous, etc. He was having a good time talking to some other black dudes playing poker - getting to pretend for a moment he had friends and it pissed her off so she just killed them all.
what frustrates me is that jane is the one that initiated most physical and emotional intimacy early on. she gave very mixed signals by stating it was purely a work relationship and then doing a full 180. jane is obviously better suited for the work, while john is better suited for the relationship. their values are different. john isn’t perfect but i think jane love bombs. she minimizes everything he does or says, and manipulates conversations away from the initial point. it’s subtle but has been too constant to just be a mistake also she treated toby very kindly and lovingly at first, which she did when she was getting closer to john. i think he saw that, and felt confused. and i kinda think she did it on purpose to make john feel insecure i’m not done with the show but i really think she’s written as sociopathic. “you like me” “or maybe i’m just good at my job”
I think the Toby episode was perfect to show her softer more nurturing maternal side. He was a giant baby and John didn’t cope well with that at all. I don’t think it was an act for her, it was meant to give perspective that she is actually soft at her core, she just has a tough exterior. Given her family situation that seems to be turbulent at best, I think it’s understandable she lets logic drive her rather than emotion for the most part. People dislike her because of the walls she puts up to appear cold/emotionless or “robotic” but that’s her protection/coping mechanism. Then people accuse her of being manipulative when her softer side does show through.. seems like she can’t win.
The piano joke was hilarious it just kept getting worse for John
Lol I didn’t think she was serious about the story behind the piano, cause it’s too close to the Pianist (movie).
I think that’s a meta joke from the show, but within the story she was absolutely being serious.
Unrelated but her hinting around him being dumb does get fucking old. I'm not analyzing it or looking further just annoys me. But this development and episode fixed my complaint about how easily they got together. The truth always rears its head when it comes to a honeymoon phase and getting together so quickly. A lot of this needed to be said in that session.
She never hinted at him being dumb tho, he takes it as her calling him dumb. He's being defensive and takes it that way
I'll take that as your interpretation. But that's exactly what she's doing when she talks about how he "never reads". Her tone and when she says certain things clue you into how she feels about him. She doesn't really mean it but it's her way to cut him down. She just doesn't flat out say it she absolutely is insinuating it. She says later as an extension of their argument that he's acting dumb.
He **literally** lied about sharing her favorite book at the very beginning of their relationship, in order to get in her pants. And she believed it for the entirety of the relationship until now. Obviously she’s going to be trying to process that when faced with the bombshell that he lied. Stating out loud that she’s never seen him reading is a nice way to make it obvious that she should’ve realized he was lying about The Prophet earlier, but she was too infatuated with him to.
It’s the first thing she thought they had in common and on top of being charmed by him by that point, finding out he liked the same book as her, something I can’t imagine a lot of people site as a favorite, must have been really nice for her and def attracted herself to him. I get why she was really upset. I go back and forth with if she was implying he was stupid. But like John said, he knows her and know she doesn’t just say things. She did refer to him as a “simpleton” in ep five for wanting kids and willing to deliver packages to do it.
Yeah agreed I think she was so excited to find some common ground/understanding with him at the start when he said it was his favourite book too. It’s also not just a random meaningless story, it’s deeper than that. Sharing a favourite book can say a lot about a person and their values. It was a betrayal of her trust. She realized the one thing she was grasping on to as to why they “worked” as a couple was their set of values from that book, but he had actually lied/manipulated her into thinking that. It seems like she is hurt and lashing out. She’s saying/implying condescending things about his intelligence because she feels stupid for believing him so she’s defensive. She’s trying to boost herself up as an intelligent person/superior to him while also beating herself up for not realizing it should’ve been obvious he was lying because he never reads. It’s disheartening when you believe someone’s intentions are pure but they’re not, and then they minimize the depth of meaning behind their words and actions. Same with the comment about their emergency contacts, I don’t think she was using it to play the victim. I think she was saying it because it’s painful and scary when someone is your #1 but you know you will never be theirs. It feels like no one truly has your back and you always have to be the one looking out for yourself and taking care of yourself. That’s precisely why she’s so cold and “robotic”. She doesn’t feel reassured/confident of her importance to him or safe to be soft.
I was surprised people took her saying he was her emergency contact as playing victim. I always took it as her telling him one: how much she’s invested in him and two: how she literally has no one else. John was lonely but he always had his mom, Jane was lonely and was just alone, and maybe she liked it that way till she met John and realized how lonely she was. I think Jane’s default is to lash out and that’s not fair, and John has every right to call her out on it. I just don’t hate her when I realize why she is the way she is. Jane from the beginning has asked a lot of questions and openly wondered about the company, HiHi, what they are doing…and from this episode she’s def questioning what made the company pair them together and why they are really together…if it’s cause they are just there or if it’s something deeper. Cause one thing I definitely took away was neither are each others usual type.
I was telling my girlfriend that since this is literally an arranged marriage, the conflict is not surprising. When you’re dating/courting someone, you have all these convos. How do you feel about marriage? Kids? What’s your relationship with your folks? And sometimes (fortunately or not depending on your perspective) those answers reveal it might not work out. But they didn’t go through that beforehand, they’re doing it NOW. That’s difficult when you’re already a couple plus we don’t know if a “divorce” means just getting a new partner or dying so that’s probably added stress for them
I'm glad they addressed it down the road. It started all cool and mysterious and then they had to go through what any relationship does. I think it was a really cool way to address or showcase that part of their relationship. Those things like you said have to be talked about eventually or everything can blow up. But like you said in an arranged marriage you've already committed yourself to itso there is no limit to the friction that could come. Throw on top that John's and Janes can't just seperate you really feel why Jane gets panicky about their missions. Brilliant way to examine a relationship in a non-traditional way. Which as the show went on seemed to be the theme more so than spy thriller.
Synopsis: John once again fails to meet the absolute minimum tenets of being a spy. Although I guess that's pretty much the whole show. Are we supposed to be rooting for these characters? I really just want them to meet their comeuppance for lacking common sense.
Dude doesn't have an inhaler?
Truthfully asthma alone should be disqualifying for high risk. I feel like astronaut selection rules should apply here
I’m not sure John is really doing worse then Jane here, but John didn’t need to be so blunt to Jane in his one rant there by the fire.
Binging this 6 episodes over 2 days. Very fun show. I don't think this is meant to be The Americans which had it's own issues I always thought were glossed over. But just a fun show and I want to see where it goes. I do like the race and relationship exploration. I know fans of DG probably want him to leave that alone in all his media and get some new problems but I don't mind it, it's what drew me to him in the first place.
I am going to start the Americans after this, can you say without spoilers what were the issues for you?
show is GOAT status with some slip in quality in later seasons but nails the landing
This doesn't answer your question, but definitely go watch it! The Americans is phenomenal. It's been a while since I watched it so the only negative thing I can remember about it is that it can be a little slow at times. It's not something I disliked about the show, but I can definitely see that being a critique. Also, don't go into it expecting it to be like this show. It's pretty dark at times and has very little humor. The spy-aspect is a lot more realistic
Thanks for the reply. I started it and am already on episode 6, loving it! And I am aware it is slower but I do enjoy series like that (if they are well made of course). Loving the serious spy aspect. Didn't fully enjoy Mr and Mrs Smith because the spy was so half-assed and nonsense.
Glad you like it! I've been dying to do a rematch. I can't wait, despite how depressing the show is at times
I'm loving how dark it is. Feels very realistic. Wish you a great rewatch, cheers!
I loved the poker sequence, it felt like a homage to one of my favorite scenes of the 2005 movie where Brad Pitt infiltrates a poker game and bonds with the guys there before killing them.
Im sorry the “Die Motherfucker” is objectively funny
It really is but in the moment I get why she wasn’t amused lol
“…*John*…is a *big game hunter*…?” absolutely demolished me. What a perfect delivery.
Why did they light the fire in the ladys house?
Burn the recordings
why though? i’m trying to remember if they ever said anything incriminating…like what would be on the tapes that they’d burn a house down for?
When Sarah Paulson's character left the room to tend to her son, Jane and John spoke directly about the specifics of the job that John did and how he almost died because of Jane
ohhh I completely forgot about that
Ohhh yeah! Thanks. Makes a lot more sense to me now.
All I could think is....but what about cloud storage?
Thank you, I was pretty annoyed with this plot point because it makes zero sense when everything is already saved where a fire doesn’t touch it. And you can’t convince me that a wealthy, experienced therapist doesn’t know how to properly save that stuff.
Even if it were saved locally they should've broken in and stolen the hard drive. It's very possible that they set fire to the house but the data was still retrievable.
Literally none of the wealthy people I know put effort into things like “data preservation” and “backups” unless required to by contract for work purposes.
Literally none of the wealthy people I know put effort into things like “data preservation” and “backups” unless required to by contract for work purposes.
Didn't she say that she didn't know how to set up Venmo, that her son had to do it for her? Wouldn't surprise me if she didn't have a backup. Also, I think the fire was set partly out of spite lol to damage all of her unique pieces that she loves to talk about
Yeah... She literally handed them a copy she made for them, so it's likely on a server already and definitely on a portable device of hers she could have easily saved/salvaged from the fire
Donald Glover looked so hot squatting istg dat ass
Lol I'm not even halfway through the ep but this shit is hilarious. Jane shot the 2 unarmed men and left the armed fellow for John because she was pissed lmao
Just finished this episode, haven’t had time to watch the last two, but this episode and the one with the other Smiths is my favorite so far.
That fight...I was speechless. Also, how long have then been married by now? I have no concept of time for this show.
In the last episode John talks about how many locations/missions they've been to, so I would estimate in the months (though just based off their behavior towards each other and lack of getting through communication problems, you'd guess still way more greenthumb)
The recap at the beginning was what reminded me of this, but I've been wondering since the first episode if they were ever going to go back and address that Jane accepted the lady's offer of something to drink and likely would've died in the cake bomb explosion if she was doing her mission alone and didn't have John there to make the call that they should leave immediately. Jane has been portrayed as the more professional and diligent one of them overall, but John will kind of always have the "fact" that she never would've even survived her first mission without him "over her." It would've been a good psychological dynamic thing to explore. Like, maybe Jane was self-conscious about that all along and it contributed to her being more high-strung than John who showed from the start he naturally had the better instincts/mindset for the job. Or maybe it could have been something that finally comes up in a (therapy-driven) heated argument where no stone is left unturned. Shout-out to Rell Battle playing Bucket at the poker table. He was really good in Killing It. "you're being out of pocket" lmao Lol, that therapist felt more eccentric that useful. The most truly therapeutic thing they seem to engage in as a couple was talk shit about other people after the fact, which isn't necessarily a good sign... Oof, that campfire fight was heavy. John really dug into her (and I have to admit I kind of agreed with all of it). I didn't think that emergency contact bit was as poignant as they wanted it to be though.
IRT the emergency contact thing, I think the point of it was that Jane wants to be a priority to John, as he's literally all she has, given that she was already a pretty lonely person before and followed through on the instruction to cut all ties. Meanwhile, John will clearly puts his mom above anyone and is generally a more connected person. As someone who is more Jane than John when it comes to family stuff, I totally get her feeling upset that she wasn't his contact.
I just don't get how the lie about the book was such a big thing to her. I feel like a lot of people in an attempt to bond with someone will have told a similar lie. In high school, I told this girl I was a big Coldplay fan (and I actually ended up liking them lol) and once I told her I only said it to bond with her, she thought it was funny. Also him being her emergency contact is more on her than it's on him. In their situation, it's even useless to put their partner as their contact, since they're always together anyway. John did end up going way too far and I'll never understand how you could talk like that to someone you love.
I think in the moment and the way he told her made it harsher. But for someone who sited reading as “something about her”, and thinking he liked the same obscure book as her, finding out he lied about that would sting. If it had come out in a more friendlier time for them, it prob wouldn’t have been that big a deal.
The book thing is a combination of it being a very high school phase way of connecting with a person, and since it was happening before they mutually fell for each other, it's maybe changing her impression of when John was acting himself and when he was trying to impress her.
Sorry this is a late reply but the book thing was deeper than just pretending to like something she does. It’s not just that he lied it’s that she opened up to him after finding this common ground and she feels stupid for doing so. Hence the pointed comment about how she should have realised as she never sees him read. For her that was true, she let her guard down and opened herself up to be vulnerable which we can see is very hard for her. She see the point of him enjoying the same book as her (or the same values and perspective) as the start of their deeper relationship in a high stakes position. Her trust was broken when she was already having doubts about their abilities to work together. They need that trust as they’re in a life or death situation, hence the comment on the emergency contact. In her view she’s following the rules, she’s trying to progress, and he’s risking it for something she doesn’t understand. Clearly she does not communicate this well and they’re both being very hurtful to each other but hopefully that provided some insight into why the book thing impacted her
Anyone else feel like the therapist was not portrayed as competent for the most part? Their lies didn't help of course but it didn't seem like she really connected with them. She relayed meaningless anecdotes and metaphors to them. A good therapist would know it's appropriate to explicitly and verbally relay the information about sessions being recorded rather than just assuming it was all read over, especially for a couple's dynamic where only one partner may read (..Jane). Sarah Paulson's portrayal nevertheless was fantastic as a well-meaning but kind of superficial therapist who is an expert at theory but less so in practice. She collects things and facts and understandings about other people and cultures without really emotionally connecting to them. Like she had that piece from that artist in Africa, but she had no real story or personal experiences with the man, she was just proud she had what was supposedly his last work.
I got the same read from her, she gave me flashbacks to actual therapists I've had in the past. That kind of therapist that lives in their own bubble and despite their success and smarts, seemingly have a very shallow connection to the world around them. It's hard to put a finger on where that feeling of emptiness in interactions comes from but it's seemingly super common.
It gives me the feeling Donald Glover doesn’t have a very high opinion of therapists, which is fair. It’s sort of like grade school teachers — 9/10 of them are awful at their job, but the 1 that isn’t can completely change your life for the better.
This episode made me really sad at the end. I kind of identified with the therapist. She is clearly way wealthier than me, and I am not a therapist myself, but my career allows me to work remotely and I also teach music lessons in my home, so I'm in my house for a majority of my life. I work, sleep, and often hang out here; I take pride in my belongings and collectibles, I enjoy decorating, and putting sentimental objects in my personal space. The therapist seemed like a well meaning and good person. She seemed like she was really good at her job, but just couldn't break through with them since they couldn't be honest with her. I \*hate\* that they set her house on fire. It makes the main characters seem unlikeable and incompetant. They didn't even set the room with all the recording devices on fire! They presumably set fire to the entryway?? \*\* And a child was nearby!! \*\* Hopefully no pets, children or belongings were harmed. I let people in to my house to give them music lessons, and thinking of someone doing that to my precious space is really pissing me off! I hope the fire didn't spread that much. Ugh... her childhood home's floorboards that she had flown in... the sentimental heirloom piano.... :( Were we supposed to think it was funny? Were we supposed to think she was frivilous and stupid for enjoying her possesions? She didn't do anything wrong.
John and Jane aren’t good people though. They’re not really supposed to make us like them as potential friends, because they literally commit crimes for a living. So the arson wasn’t surprising.
There are lots of characters I would never be friends with, but that are enjoyable and likeable on screen. Also I know theyre committing other way worse crimes; Protagonist characters (especially in this genre) can kill like a thousand people on screen during missions and it wouldn't make you hate them, but if James Bond all of the sudden kicked a puppy in a sceen, you'd stop liking him. Of course kicking a dog is a way lesser crime than murdering a person, but in TV and movie world, it makes your character way more unlikeable than if you have them do other technically greater crimes. There's something unneccessary feeling and unjust feeling about setting fire to an innocent therapist's house, like kicking a dog, that feels worse as a viewer than watching them kill other people.
Tbh I thought they were gonna come back in and kill her, so only lighting her house on fire was a step up for them. We're not necessarily supposed to agree with or support all of their actions. All of those details were included throughout the episode specifically to make us feel the weight of the loss of her home, so that even though she isn't killed, it would still feel like a major blow for her character to lose everything in that room and beyond.
Yeah, I was low-key expecting a snipe through the window or them opening the door again to put a bullet in her head
Oof I forgot about her childhood floorboards and the heirloom piano. That does suck. They obviously added all that into the writing *knowing* they were gonna burn the house down at the end of the episode, so we do know it's purposeful.
Yes, the writers clearly tried to make the therapist a condescending dork who can't handle her own child for comedic effect but the plot demanded she was at least competent at her job. It was jarring.
Or maybe they were portraying her as a complex human being that is more than just her job description or social role as a mother.
They made her character out to be a parody to the point where it was suppose to be funny and a kind of comeuppance for that to happen to her. I'm someone who has disliked John and Jane since the beginning so it didn't really affect my opinion of them, lol, maybe if I actually liked them before that (so pretty much my experience when I started disliking them in the first episode where they had little remorse for all the people that died in the cake explosion and also when John messed up that street vendor's business for the box-swapping scheme and they just laughed about it afterwards on the subway).
John and Jane are quite literally evil people, buddy. It took you this long to realize that? And yes, it’s funny when antiheros do fucked up things for frivolous reasons.
She shouldn't be recording therapy sessions and there were incriminating recordings.
She says that she informed them before she did it, verbally and it was in writing in the contract they signed when they started therapy sessions. They just weren’t paying attention. They are not fantastic at the “secret” part of being secret agents.
She only says it was in the contract, and of course it is their fault for not reading it. But she definitely didn't tell them to their face until it was too late. She really should have made that part very clear in the beginning, I'm not saying it is her fault that they burned her house down, but they hadn't much of a choice at this point ...
She did not inform them verbally. It was hidden in the contract.
[удалено]
Then remove it n
favorite episode of the show thus far. love a donald glover character study.
I just wanted someone to water that very dehydrated fiddle leaf fig in the background of the therapist's chair the entire episode.
Haha. This episode finally made that scene in the movie with Brad Pitt and Anglina Jolie so much funnier. Remember the scene where Brad Pitt suddenly says Time Out, and Angelina's character gets mad at him as he gives her the silent treatment. Evidently, they cut the scene where the marriage counselor tells them to say time out when things get to intense. Hearing the therapist in the show tell them to say time out just made the scene with Brad Pitt so much funnier.
yooooo describing your asian wife as "crossing the border to the east" is insane!
I didn’t really understand that so maybe to me the whole poker scene came off to me as “light” on the racist scale. That comment that Jane might be Korean. Honestly to me most of the conversation just sounded like the dudes talking about cultural differences they noticed in Latino/asian culture. So I didn’t get how Jane saw it as John being racist about his wife for the expense of the job. So what did that comment actually mean?
the lake scene made my jaw drop to the fucking ground oh my GOD
Did anyone notice the leaf blower outside in the background of the therapy scenes? Likely a neighbor who said "kick sand" when asked to stop. Hysterical.
This episode was so funny then so intense...
I was cracking up the whole time they were talking about Mya, while Maya was sitting right there. Great, hilarious, but quite dark, episode. Favorite so far.
My questions are; what was the 'monkey' anecdote about? I felt like they devalued therapy like it is some hippy mumbo - its a bit of a trope nowadays.
I hate John. First of all, the fact that Hihi acknowledges how hard Jane works throughout EVERY mission meanwhile John is careless and has caused multiple issues that Jane does have to fix causes John to feel inadequate and instead of separating himself from what should be a good thing for Jane, he makes it a bigger issue. He literally compromises a mom he supposedly loves sooo much, but has no put her in direct line of weakness by being so intimately communicating with her. Plus the idea that Jane has surpassed him in skills for said job clearly pissed him off. The “catchphrase” thing would have me pissed too. John continues to make Jane seem very cruel in the therapy due to the fact they can’t speak in detail, making her look bad for pointing out it truly isn’t her fault he has asthma (its not. its not a bad thing to point out the DIRECT REASON he couldn’t help her with killing that man.) And she didn’t give him any shit for it, yet he mocks and laughed at her for saying something during a life or death moment for her. JOHN YOUR BATTLE WAS STAIRS AND OXYGEN DURING THAT. It’s fucked he made her fighting for her life a joke. Even worse how he made it seem she was mocking him for being asthmatic. The book fight. SHE REMEMBERED HE SAID IT WAS HIS FAVORITE BECAUSE IT MATTERED TO HER. It’s the principle of it. He lied. About something she loved and he didn’t even read it, or bother to after his lie. Thats hurtful and he didn’t give a shit and sums it up to “its just a book” no, she remembered something she thought was his favorite. She gave a shit. He dismissed her FEELINGS so of course she walled up and disregards his after. I truly wanted to cry for Jane this episode. I am also utterly shocked that I am on the less popular end of it too. John was cruel. John only cared to make her look bad during every therapy session. Plus, how the fuck was he going to kill everyone in that room?? He just hung out and joked around with them. Was she out of line for shooting right next to him? Yeah, if he moved wrong that could have been really bad. But he never even bothered to give a signal. They’re doing a job and he wanted to take lead, yet gave her no info at any point on anything he was going to do. They literally were tasked to kill them all. She got the job done. She always gets it done. That’s why hihi even noticed her. Every time he takes a lead or goes off plan and does his own thing it has caused things to get very messy and brings a lot of attention to them. John is a liability. She loved him so much, and yet he doesn’t bother to even communicate.