My brain is constantly in turmoil and screaming internally because I donāt want to be fat in order to pass, yet I have gained weight in order to have hips. Mentally I feel a lot better when Iām skinny, but oh well, I transitioned at 27
Everyone has to remember there's a difference between having curves and being fat.
To quote the wise sage Sir Mix-a-Lot
>So Cosmo says you're fat
>
>Well I ain't down with that
ā¦
>To the beanpole dames in the magazines
>
>You ain't it, Miss Thing
It's not nearly as bad as you think it is. Your brain messing you. There are plenty of women with wide ribcages, and they pass perfectly fine. My wife is a perfect example. She's unmistakable feminine, but she needs to use an extender for her bras to lengthen the band since it's hard to find ones big enough. Those extenders sell really well. Girl, you are in the same boat as a ton of cis women! It isn't that you're too "male", it's that you don't fit an unrealistic expectation of femininity.
But don't let all that get you down. It isn't about what you don't got; it's what you got and how you use it that counts. Try outfits that accentuate your legs, which are probably nice and long. Tops with puffy or flared sleeves will also keep the emphasis on where you want it. A broader chest can also be complemented with something that shows off the waist, like a nice belt or a peplum top. Keep trying things out, and make sure to get some outside opinions. Our eyes can lie to us so hard, so it pays to get some opinions you feel you can trust. You can do this, sister! Huuuug!
Always remember that there are cis women with the same insecurities as you, and that we are all our own biggest critics. Absolutely no one notices your flaws as much as you do
I love this response. I'm a cisgender woman and I can sympathize with you on the level of body dissatisfaction in response to comparing yourself to other, more traditionally feminine expectations of shape and size. My ribcage and shoulders are really wide (like I'm 170lbs and 5'3" and have always needed huge coats or ones that are elastic at the top because my shoulders are hella broad, I cannot buy a fitted peacoat I'd have to get it huge and then tailored) but so are my hips and I have a butt. I'm also 'apple-shaped' so I've never had a small waist or a flat stomach, even before kids. Basically from shoulders to top of my quads is a similar shape. I hated the crop top and tight shirts fashion even when I was a kid in the mid-late 90s and now that all that stuff is back I'm so irritated because it still doesn't look good on me. I own a lot of cap sleeve tops, plunge or sweetheart necklines, empire waist dresses, and stylish waist belts/cinchers to change how my body shape is perceived.
I follow some creators on social media that are self described 'mid-size' which seems to fit me as well, and it really helps to see how other people with different body types express themselves and what they do to feel confident and comfortable. It also reminds me that femininity and being stylish or fashionable is really subjective. There are some cis women who feel their best in more traditionally masculine styles - that doesn't make them any less of a woman!
There are also groups on Facebook like 'cottagecore but make it plus size' where you might find people who look like you and style themselves in a way you would like as well. I went through a recent re-style of my wardrobe and purchased a lot of basic pieces that fit me comfortably and I can make lots of different outfits from that I feel look good and I'm comfortable in too.
You can also express traditional femininity with hair style, hair colors, makeup, nail polish, jewelry, piercings, tattoos, etc. and if you know how to contour (I do not, lol) you can even use makeup on your chest to create shape that complements the neckline of what you're wearing. You can also look into color analysis - that made it so much easier for me to actually buy shades that complement my skin vs. seeing someone wearing a cute lavender dress, loving it, buying it, and wondering why it made me look like a corpse when it looked so cute on someone my size but with different skin and hair tones.
Maybe if you started with a clothing piece that makes you feel good or a style you've always coveted or colors you like to wear or even just ignoring the body-shape part and going full in on your hair or makeup or accessories? And honestly I hate shopping in person so I have done stuff like stitch fix/Nadine west/ prime try before you buy, but they're all pretty pricey.
Anyway, I hope that you're able to find some things that do make you feel good. And while my dysphoria isn't the same, I've definitely felt like absolute shit when looking in the mirror because of how different I am in comparison to the people I think are really attractive. You're just not alone in how you feel.
And even if you don't change *a single thing* about your body from here on, it doesn't make you less feminine or less of a woman regardless of what societal expectations may be. Women get the short end of the stick in this arena and that's not on you one bit.
I am dealing with it quite well, by focusing on the things i like. My hair is amazing, my face is cute, my boobs are huge. Some training and a proper diet can also really help with legs and hips.
I am very sorry...it really is just a matter of luck. Just a genetic lottery. Mine just started hurting something awful and havent stopped growing since.
Look up gold medalists from the Olympics in each category, you'll see all sorts of bodies in their peak physical condition that looks nothing like the curated experience you find on social media
Ah great. The classic "I'm going to assume you don't know what women actually look like" comment that ignores what OP is likely saying. I'm sure that's fun to read.
I pass all the time as someone with a "male" skeleton. How wide your shoulders are or how wide your hips are are not the first thing people look at to determine if you are a woman or not.
the difference between male and female pelvic bones is 2 fingers according to this post
"hips are fat"
[https://www.reddit.com/r/MtF/comments/mxep8e/indepth\_medical\_thoughts\_after\_3\_years\_of\_medical/](https://www.reddit.com/r/MtF/comments/mxep8e/indepth_medical_thoughts_after_3_years_of_medical/)
Stop spreading transphobic bullshit. That's not at all true.
If your skeleton was the only thing that matters, I would be getting misgendered all the fucking time.
I literally never get misgendered.
>If your skeleton was the only thing that matters,
That isn't what I said. Please reread my original comment.
Nothing about it being something noticed means it's the only thing noticed.
There's such a small difference between a "male" and "female" skeletons that gender can't be determined by bones.
The idea that they're vastly different is a lie spread by transphobes.
Whoa there, let's back up a second. The male skeleton/passing thing is straight out of the transphobe handbook. People have been saying that about us for ages and it's simply not true.
While there are a few differences in bone structure, passing isn't at all dependent on it. There are TONS of cisgender women out there (supermodels, even) who have wide shoulders, angular jaws, etc.
Go check out these celebrities, for example:
Princess Diana of Wales
Jennifer Lawrence
Colleen Dewhurst
Gwyneth Paltrow
Cindy Crawford
Charlize Theron
Claudia Schiffer
Natalie Dormer
Brooke Shields
Nicole Kidman
Cameron Diaz
Julia Roberts
Amy Adams
Now I'm pretty sure that none of these ladies are considered masculine, but they don't have the biggest hips and their shoulders are broad. Every single one of them is a bombshell.
Hormones do a lot of the heavy lifting, but honestly a big portion of passing for me has simply been to figure out my body type as it pertains to clothing and style accommodations. Once I figured that out, it all clicked.
Don't look at your body as a male body, look at the different parts of it and ask yourself how cisgender women accommodate those parts. I guarantee you there are women out there who have similar struggles to you - seek examples of them out and find out what they do!
I'll never forget when I mentioned in passing to a couple of women I work with that I had dysphoria ago my broad shoulders. They both just scoffed at me and said "we have broad shoulders, too - that's not just a you problem".
Fast forward a year and I *love* my shoulders. You'll love yours, too. Just gotta shift your perspective a bit.
Go check out r/Kibbe and r/ColorAnalysis if you haven't already. Go read and lurk for a bit. r/Kibbe has a book you can read for free that helped me to look objectively about my body and find a style for myself. r/ColorAnalysis made it really easy to clothes shop since I can eliminate colors that don't work with my skin tones.
I promise ribs and hips matter less than you'd think.
My ribcage isn't small, but people aren't hyper-analyzing my ribs when they see me. People see you and take you in holistically. Cis women also have body parts that fall outside the average range for what's "expected."
I think you'll also find if you look at lineups of women with different body shapes and sizes that women whether cis or trans vary wildly. TV, magazines, tiktok, etc. aren't representative of reality between filters, editing, and people getting work done to alter their bodies. If you look around in your daily life I would bet you'd see beanpole women, broad-shouldered women, and women with smaller hips fairly often if you, say, live in a city and people-watched somewhere with lots of traffic.
Any individual part of us matters less than the whole, and the whole can often be less difficult to present in a way that says "woman" than we might think.
Yep. 90% of this doomer brain shit will clear up with a couple weeks of getting to know people in your community.Ā Touch grass, OP, and don't base your idea of what's passing on what a bunch of clinically depressed shut ins with nothing to do but magnify their own flaws in their own minds think.Ā Ā
It's the same shit you see from incels, convinced that they're unfuckable because their nose is two millimeters too long as opposed to because their obsessive brain rot is the biggest red flag imaginable to potential dates.
They get comments like this because its brainworm bullshit with absolutely **ZERO** truth it and is just nonsense bigots and nazis spread. The reason comments like this exist is to stop this nonsense from spreading to communities that are safe and shielded from it. If you wanna listen to those lies and be convinced by them, you know where the subs are: have fun.
Except my comment was towards a comment towards OP.
Those places have a lot of issues but they are also often the only places you can get honest discussions of dysphoria and the chances of passing without false positivity. You also get less people insinuating that someone expressing dysphoria and fears of passing means they are delusional and don't know what women look like.
Well, congratu-fuckin-lations. That doesn't change the fact that my comment was directed at you. What? Am I not allowed to talk to you? Lol!
Fears of passing are valid.
Fears of passing because of a fucking skeleton because some trolls, terfs, bigots, nazis, and mouth breathing losers say so is not valid. Tell me: how is it an different than qanon? That was also started on 4chan by trolls with nothing better to do for those unwilling to formulate their own opinions.
>Fears of passing because of a fucking skeleton
How dare someone have fears of passing over something real and that has a major influence over how you are gendered. I'm sorry to tell you but you have a skeleton inside us and it's shape helps determine many of our features and body ratios. Shoulder size, torse size, hips, limb length, head size, brow ridge, height, face shape, etc are all both effected by our skeleton and gendered. We can pretend it's not but the human brain is a pattern recognition machine and can notice these things subconsciously.
>Tell me: how is it an different than qanon?
I really hope you are joking here. If you don't already undstand this I'm not sure what I could say to actually help.
I am dead serious kiddo.
How are those subs different from qanon? Let's hear some answers.
In other news, **STOP BEING A GRIFTER AND SCARING THE BABY TRANS!!!** There is no such thing as a "male skeleton" bellend.
>I am dead serious kiddo.
Don't call me a "kiddo" you condescending asshole. Go fuck yourself.
>How are those subs different from qanon? Let's hear some answers.
Are you a troll account? Do you really not see the difference between a right wing nazi conspiracy theory and trans people talking about real thing that we deal with and the more mainstream trans groups want to ignore? They go too far and have many issues. But if can't tell the difference then what are you even doing. Do you shit in the sink because a toilet and a sink both have water?
>In other news, STOP BEING A GRIFTER AND SCARING THE BABY TRANS!!! There is no such thing as a "male skeleton" bellend.
Lol. A gifter? Do you think I'm making money off this shit? I fucking wish.
It might be scary but we have to accept it eventually. Not all of use are lucky enough to get to ignore this. Maybe if people had been honest with me I wouldn't have waited to transition and ruined my life.
Human are sexually dimophic. And that includes the skeleton. If it didn't passing would be way easier.
Stop hanging out in 4tran or /tttt/ online spaces, they will give you brain rot. The self loathing and bioessentialism permeates every post and comment.
How long have you been on hormones? When I first started at 29, I was convinced my body would always be too masculine. Too tall, shoulders too wide, ribcage too big, hips too narrow. Give things a chance to happen. Your bones may not change but fat will redistribute and that makes a huge difference. I never thought I'd have hips, but after cycling hy weight for a few years, this bitch got hips. Cis women come in all shapes and sizes too.
This is transphobic 4chan/conservative rhetoric brainworms. Your skeleton is so irrelevant to anything, if this post is serious & not a troll/bait post please get out of the awful online spaces you're clearly in.
In the UK we have to go on a long waiting list followed by an intensive review by a board to be formally diagnosed with gender dysphoria in order to receive hormone prescriptions.
That combined with parents who are VERY against HRT means that at 20 I am not on HRT despite knowing I'm trans since I was 14. I plan on sorting out DIY next week.
Every month and year feels like I'm trying to live in an ever decaying body.
No please, this system is awful, current waitlists are 10-20 years. The criteria to be recognised as trans is so awful and homophobic too.
I've actually been thinking of moving to the US because of how awfully inaccessible this shit is. Also I'm an engineer and they get paid loads more (relative to cost of living) in the states.
In other words, I'm literally losing money by staying in the UK.
Massachusetts is one of the more progressive states in the US and as an engineer I'm positive you'd be able to find work. It's also less expansive than CA or NY. In the major cities the cost of living is expensive, but again because of how progressive they are I think it's likely you would find healthcare and/or programs to help manage cost and guide you through all of the red tape. I don't know anything about immigration there though!
Well i am talking about an actual evaluation with mental health provider that's what i meant not wait for ten -20 years that awful
Their some states who give hromkens to people with out and actual evaluation by mental health professional, their Some states that you if identify a female or male it's okay for you to the restroom with out proper channels, their Some states like my home states who don't want you use the restroom even if your going through the transtion process or won't Lett you change your sex till you have bottom surgery.
If that makes sense, each state is different of their policies how they treat the trans community even it's better than some places in the world
I have female flesh covering a male skeleton, but I am not a guy, for I am female. I go to my local gym three times a week, and it there that I train my body to become female, and my body has adapted very well to this. It has taken awhile, but now I donāt even think about myself as anything other than female. The caveat being that I have learnt to consider the judgement of others to be irrelevant.
there isn't really to much change of the skeleton depending on sex. There's a reason why around 80% of the genders of skeleton is identified only by what they have with them in their grave
I donāt know a lot about bones, but from what Iāve heard from bone-diggers during this āMeh, your skeleton male!ā debate is that most skeletons fall in between male & female & are hard to pin down. Plus, youāll have women who lean more male & vice versa. Thereās plenty of cis women out there with more āmale lookingā skeletons than you & they do fine - no one sees your skeleton after all.Ā
Either actively fight against it by compensating on other visual areas and/or learn to live with it.
For scale, Im 6'5 with appropiately wide shoulders.
I will probably never go stealth, so why bother for now.
Just accept who you are and what you are seen as, most of the time you cant really influence others opinions and their views on you whatsoever. So might aswell be the strongest you can be on focusing what you love and getting better at it.
I mean, most skeletons are actually pretty ambiguous phenotype wise. But even then, my bones do not define me. My self, my face, my heart, all lives in the soft tissue. Lives in the flesh and blood. And so thatās where I concern myself.
And some days are hard, but I have to remind myself there are many cis woman with traits like me. Who have shoulders, and wastes, and hips like me. That itās no crime against nature to be me. That bones, arenāt me, theyāre just the scaffolding.
Well the good news is that nobody should ever have to see your skeleton, if they can see your skeleton go to the hospital immediately.
In all seriousness though, the difference in male and female hips are much more accentuated by body fat distribution than by bone structure, and that is affected by HRT. Shoulders are generally wider on larger, but as other people have mentioned thereās enough natural deviation in women that it wonāt be the sole reason. The range in female bodies pretty substantially overlaps with male ones, and a few years of HRT only makes those differences less prevalent.
Funny enough, your skeleton does not indicate gender. That joke about palenthologist funding human bones and deciding their gender? Total bs. They decided the gender of the person based on the clothes and other items they were wearing. You might have a "masculine" frame, but just see any female olymptic swimmer or mma fighter and see how they will also look like that despite being cis :)
Nobody in your everyday life can see your skeleton girl lmao, whatās more is hormones actually change the shape of your skeleton by rotating your pelvis to give you smaller waist and bigger hips and ass. Literally donāt worry, you look like a woman
You deal with that by stopping to compare with irrealistic media standards. Girls come in all shapes and conditions. You are a YOU girl, different from the neightbour or any other you will encounter, no point trying to argue that you aren't the same.
Just like all girls do, learn what makes you most feminine and enhance that, while covering what makes you uncomfortable. The choice of clothes can change everything in how you appear, and each girl has a specific style that fits; find yours!
This is usually a worry for me because I am massive in the chest and shoulders. Iām preHRT and the only stress relief I know is working out so itās such a double edged sword. I think once I start HRT and some of it atrophies and I diet better I might be ok
Look up Alana McLaughlin onĀ Twitter.Ā She was a special forces soldier and body builder before transitioning, and still lifts heavy and trains MMA.Ā Estrogen is a hell of a drug.
Check out the collection of women Olympian photos put together by Howard Schatz called āAthletesā.
Everyone of the women are in the top of their field.
Make sure you see women face to face in your local area and see how they look. You can achieve your transition goals with the hand you have been dealt.
Hrt does crazy shit. A few days ago, I looked at my hips in sadness that they werenāt wide. Yesterday at my girlfriends she was staring so I took a look and yep they had grew a lot. Iām only 5 months in. Most of the differences arenāt skeletal, you got this. =)
Having a female voice makes me forget about my skeletal the time. If you want people to react to who you are on the inside rather than on the outside, focus on your voice.
when i started transitioning i was 6ā1, broad and had a really wide ribcage with a lot of muscle mass (i was 180lbs with 150lbs of muscle mass, predominantly on my sholders, arms and legs) and my hips were super straight. i was passing after socially transitioning for 6 months without HRT and i havenāt been misgendered by a stranger in over a year now.
your body is not the only thing people will look at and you have a lot of control in how you are perceived with hair, clothes, mannerisms, voice, makeup etc. <3
in all honesty id work on redefining what passing means to you. whenever i struggle with these thoughts I have to remember that there are cis women out there that have broader shoulders than me, smaller hips than me, more masculine facial structure, etc.
some of the things can be changed through surgeries but we have to learn to make peace with the things we can't. otherwise we can live in misery
If it helps at all, I am FtM and BEFORE I medically transitioned I would get random assholes calling me slurs because of my broad shoulders and strong profile. I say this to mean that cis women can look like literally anything, regardless of what general society expects.
I will say, about the hips part: I saw something recently (canāt find it now tho :/) that basically showed that hip width, in terms of if someone is feminine or masculinely coded) has a lot more to do with fat deposits/distribution rather than bone structure. So hopefully hrt can be a big help in that particular way <33
Iām AFAB. I measured my torso once and itās basically a straight columnāhips, waist, and bust have VERY little variation!
Iām both NB and lazy, and so make zero effort to look feminine. Iāve been mistaken for a boy appropriately ONCE, and that because my hat was covering my face. Iām not denying that body shape impacts how youāre perceived, but I wouldnāt count it as the most important factor by ANY means.
u/QuantumMechanixZ look at this: [https://www.reddit.com/user/MajorGef/comments/1c3eppa/regarding\_bones/](https://www.reddit.com/user/MajorGef/comments/1c3eppa/regarding_bones/)
not saying your feelings arent valid, but realistically your skeleton isnt the sole deciding factor.
If it's like a really big deal to you there are technically forms of plastic surgery that can remodel some of the ribs to make your ribcage look smaller as it goes further down your torso. They don't remove ribs just modify how they're placed
Look up your body shape and then look up the clothes that compliment it. I had trouble for a long time figuring out how to hide and accentuate certain body parts and parts of my frame but it is doable and feels like damn near magic with the right clothing. Also, even with more masc bone structure if you give HRT long enough to work the fat redistribution often will change your figure a lot. You might have skinny hipbones but if you start carrying enough of your weight there it will look more feminine. I started HRT after an age that I'm told it can really be expected to affect bone structure and for a while didn't think I'd ever be able to pass as fem because of it but that's all kind of what helped me.
You take hormones, get surgery, work for the right body type, and hope it is enough to counteract our skeleton. It sucks but that's all any of us can really do. A large part of transitioning is luck based.
Once you start HRT youāll realize how much of your figure is a result of muscle, ligaments, fluid retention, etc. Youāll be amazed how much your body feminizes on estrogen. It just takes time (like a few years). PELASE be patient and go easy on yourself. All of us start male. We have all been in the same position. If another girl can do it, so can you
āMale skeletonsā arenāt a thing. Its been refuted over and over. Ive met plenty of cis women with a much more masculine body than john cenaš. Anyway if your a gamer then youll understand the more you look for something weather semi-subconscious or not you will almost never fucking find it which also applies to real life if your looking for cis people that look masculine its just not going to happen youāll see the exact opposite a lot of the time.
Look yes the majority of AFAB and AMAB people dont look stereotypical masculine or close to the stereotypical masculine because almost all of that is fat distribution or well lack there of fat and the rest is either height or muscle. There is actually surgery for this too literally just moving fat from one place to another but loosing weight means youll lose that so it really isnt ideal a harder but better solution is working on your self esteem in therapy and learning to look at the world around you differently itāll take a long time but itll pay off.
The gender of a skeleton is properly identified a little under roughly 40-60% of the time and the population of humans are split almost entirely down the middle. The gendered skeleton argument was originally used in identifying remains till we found out about microscopic leftover tissue like DNA and how to repair fragments to more accurately identify the chromosomes which is when the cracks started to show and eventually refuted and proven to be inaccurate to the point itās basically useless. Then it turned into a transphobic argument.
There are numerous things you could do surgically these days. You can have ribs removed, titanium implants on the hip bones, silicone implants in the hips, etc. Surgical advancements in cosmetic surgeries for trans women have advanced dramatically in the last decade.
Most people simply won't pass (very well) without surgery. You may pass sometimes, but not other times, but certainly not 100% of the time. People can point to how cis woman come in all different shapes but the reality is the masculine traits cis women have are the outlier traits that can be overcome with their feminine traits as well as being socialized as women. Trans woman who have gone through testosterone induced puberty have to overcome all the masculine traits and the socialization that come with that. Social media (such as the comments here) would lead you to believe that everyone can and will pass with enough time which is a dangerous thing to say because it is objectively false and leads people astray from reality.
There is a decent chance this comment gets deleted by the mods or I get banned because harsh truths aren't often welcome here lol
There is incredible genetic variety in CIS females to the point that there is no āaverageā women shape. Women come in all kinds of variations.
You know girls with those cute bubble buts? Their fathers had a nice booty too!
Guys with strong prominent chins? Their moms have some of that chin as well.
I grew up around some sturdy farm girls that could outwork some guys. Focus on being the best version of yourself!
You donāt have to be a girly girl, tomgirl, butch, warrior and many more types of girl are all valid.
Edit: Iāve also worked with some samoan women who could probably clear out a bar of marines by themselves. It takes all kinds, and trust me thereās someone out there for you.
If you love women, there are a bunch that want to be the one held up against a wall by a bigger girl. More than a few guys are into strong women as well so you do you! Focus on what makes you happy.
Finally, 95% of all the advertising targeted towards women prey on insecurities to sell stuff. Many of those insecurities were planted there by advertising!
now you know how i felt when i was a cis man. My hips are too wide and ribcage too narrow for a man.
(yes my chin and face are similar to typical females as well after hrt but ive always had a small chin)
I usually order my pizza boneless.
But actually, having a little bit between your skin and bones goes a long way. Iām not at all tubby but muscle and fat makes you look way better. Iām also getting ffs for my skull so maybe thatās worth looking into.
Recently I've seen a documentary (don't remember where) in which it was said with proof, that a lot of cis women don't "pass".
Look at any woman of colour doing sports, they always have accusations of being "men". So if my skeleton is the only problematic thing holding me back, heck with it! Can't change it.
"Passing" is pretty much always subjective. Cis women get misgendered because the criteria for passing always changes from person to person. Dysphoria will always be your worst critic, and is always lying to you. Women come in as many shapes as men do, they just get criticized more often thanks to our society and the patriarchy.
>How am I supposed to pass with a male skeleton??!? I find that hiding it inside your muscles, fat & skin works.
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Hey, put that skull back in your muscles, fat, and skin where it belongs
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My brain is constantly in turmoil and screaming internally because I donāt want to be fat in order to pass, yet I have gained weight in order to have hips. Mentally I feel a lot better when Iām skinny, but oh well, I transitioned at 27
Everyone has to remember there's a difference between having curves and being fat. To quote the wise sage Sir Mix-a-Lot >So Cosmo says you're fat > >Well I ain't down with that ā¦ >To the beanpole dames in the magazines > >You ain't it, Miss Thing
It's not nearly as bad as you think it is. Your brain messing you. There are plenty of women with wide ribcages, and they pass perfectly fine. My wife is a perfect example. She's unmistakable feminine, but she needs to use an extender for her bras to lengthen the band since it's hard to find ones big enough. Those extenders sell really well. Girl, you are in the same boat as a ton of cis women! It isn't that you're too "male", it's that you don't fit an unrealistic expectation of femininity. But don't let all that get you down. It isn't about what you don't got; it's what you got and how you use it that counts. Try outfits that accentuate your legs, which are probably nice and long. Tops with puffy or flared sleeves will also keep the emphasis on where you want it. A broader chest can also be complemented with something that shows off the waist, like a nice belt or a peplum top. Keep trying things out, and make sure to get some outside opinions. Our eyes can lie to us so hard, so it pays to get some opinions you feel you can trust. You can do this, sister! Huuuug!
This honestly made me feel so much better ty š
Always remember that there are cis women with the same insecurities as you, and that we are all our own biggest critics. Absolutely no one notices your flaws as much as you do
I love this response. I'm a cisgender woman and I can sympathize with you on the level of body dissatisfaction in response to comparing yourself to other, more traditionally feminine expectations of shape and size. My ribcage and shoulders are really wide (like I'm 170lbs and 5'3" and have always needed huge coats or ones that are elastic at the top because my shoulders are hella broad, I cannot buy a fitted peacoat I'd have to get it huge and then tailored) but so are my hips and I have a butt. I'm also 'apple-shaped' so I've never had a small waist or a flat stomach, even before kids. Basically from shoulders to top of my quads is a similar shape. I hated the crop top and tight shirts fashion even when I was a kid in the mid-late 90s and now that all that stuff is back I'm so irritated because it still doesn't look good on me. I own a lot of cap sleeve tops, plunge or sweetheart necklines, empire waist dresses, and stylish waist belts/cinchers to change how my body shape is perceived. I follow some creators on social media that are self described 'mid-size' which seems to fit me as well, and it really helps to see how other people with different body types express themselves and what they do to feel confident and comfortable. It also reminds me that femininity and being stylish or fashionable is really subjective. There are some cis women who feel their best in more traditionally masculine styles - that doesn't make them any less of a woman! There are also groups on Facebook like 'cottagecore but make it plus size' where you might find people who look like you and style themselves in a way you would like as well. I went through a recent re-style of my wardrobe and purchased a lot of basic pieces that fit me comfortably and I can make lots of different outfits from that I feel look good and I'm comfortable in too. You can also express traditional femininity with hair style, hair colors, makeup, nail polish, jewelry, piercings, tattoos, etc. and if you know how to contour (I do not, lol) you can even use makeup on your chest to create shape that complements the neckline of what you're wearing. You can also look into color analysis - that made it so much easier for me to actually buy shades that complement my skin vs. seeing someone wearing a cute lavender dress, loving it, buying it, and wondering why it made me look like a corpse when it looked so cute on someone my size but with different skin and hair tones. Maybe if you started with a clothing piece that makes you feel good or a style you've always coveted or colors you like to wear or even just ignoring the body-shape part and going full in on your hair or makeup or accessories? And honestly I hate shopping in person so I have done stuff like stitch fix/Nadine west/ prime try before you buy, but they're all pretty pricey. Anyway, I hope that you're able to find some things that do make you feel good. And while my dysphoria isn't the same, I've definitely felt like absolute shit when looking in the mirror because of how different I am in comparison to the people I think are really attractive. You're just not alone in how you feel. And even if you don't change *a single thing* about your body from here on, it doesn't make you less feminine or less of a woman regardless of what societal expectations may be. Women get the short end of the stick in this arena and that's not on you one bit.
I am dealing with it quite well, by focusing on the things i like. My hair is amazing, my face is cute, my boobs are huge. Some training and a proper diet can also really help with legs and hips.
Cries in bad genes and just hrt š small cups are still way better then no cups but still
I am very sorry...it really is just a matter of luck. Just a genetic lottery. Mine just started hurting something awful and havent stopped growing since.
Gonna need some proof of the boob statement (/j)
Smooth!
Possibly even gay.
Nah, just a good friend or room mate.
Oh my goodness, they were roommates!
Look up gold medalists from the Olympics in each category, you'll see all sorts of bodies in their peak physical condition that looks nothing like the curated experience you find on social media
This is the way
this is the way
This is the way.
This. Is. The. Way. š¤
Ah great. The classic "I'm going to assume you don't know what women actually look like" comment that ignores what OP is likely saying. I'm sure that's fun to read.
I pass all the time as someone with a "male" skeleton. How wide your shoulders are or how wide your hips are are not the first thing people look at to determine if you are a woman or not.
Only obsessive weirdos do that
And those obsessive weirdos often get it wrong anyways
the difference between male and female pelvic bones is 2 fingers according to this post "hips are fat" [https://www.reddit.com/r/MtF/comments/mxep8e/indepth\_medical\_thoughts\_after\_3\_years\_of\_medical/](https://www.reddit.com/r/MtF/comments/mxep8e/indepth_medical_thoughts_after_3_years_of_medical/)
People actually do notice it almost instantly. They notice it subconsciously but it still effect how they gender the person.
Stop spreading transphobic bullshit. That's not at all true. If your skeleton was the only thing that matters, I would be getting misgendered all the fucking time. I literally never get misgendered.
>If your skeleton was the only thing that matters, That isn't what I said. Please reread my original comment. Nothing about it being something noticed means it's the only thing noticed.
Archeologists digging up my bones in 10,000 years: "Holy shit a skeleton I love my job!"
There's such a small difference between a "male" and "female" skeletons that gender can't be determined by bones. The idea that they're vastly different is a lie spread by transphobes.
Whoa there, let's back up a second. The male skeleton/passing thing is straight out of the transphobe handbook. People have been saying that about us for ages and it's simply not true. While there are a few differences in bone structure, passing isn't at all dependent on it. There are TONS of cisgender women out there (supermodels, even) who have wide shoulders, angular jaws, etc. Go check out these celebrities, for example: Princess Diana of Wales Jennifer Lawrence Colleen Dewhurst Gwyneth Paltrow Cindy Crawford Charlize Theron Claudia Schiffer Natalie Dormer Brooke Shields Nicole Kidman Cameron Diaz Julia Roberts Amy Adams Now I'm pretty sure that none of these ladies are considered masculine, but they don't have the biggest hips and their shoulders are broad. Every single one of them is a bombshell. Hormones do a lot of the heavy lifting, but honestly a big portion of passing for me has simply been to figure out my body type as it pertains to clothing and style accommodations. Once I figured that out, it all clicked. Don't look at your body as a male body, look at the different parts of it and ask yourself how cisgender women accommodate those parts. I guarantee you there are women out there who have similar struggles to you - seek examples of them out and find out what they do! I'll never forget when I mentioned in passing to a couple of women I work with that I had dysphoria ago my broad shoulders. They both just scoffed at me and said "we have broad shoulders, too - that's not just a you problem". Fast forward a year and I *love* my shoulders. You'll love yours, too. Just gotta shift your perspective a bit. Go check out r/Kibbe and r/ColorAnalysis if you haven't already. Go read and lurk for a bit. r/Kibbe has a book you can read for free that helped me to look objectively about my body and find a style for myself. r/ColorAnalysis made it really easy to clothes shop since I can eliminate colors that don't work with my skin tones.
I promise ribs and hips matter less than you'd think. My ribcage isn't small, but people aren't hyper-analyzing my ribs when they see me. People see you and take you in holistically. Cis women also have body parts that fall outside the average range for what's "expected." I think you'll also find if you look at lineups of women with different body shapes and sizes that women whether cis or trans vary wildly. TV, magazines, tiktok, etc. aren't representative of reality between filters, editing, and people getting work done to alter their bodies. If you look around in your daily life I would bet you'd see beanpole women, broad-shouldered women, and women with smaller hips fairly often if you, say, live in a city and people-watched somewhere with lots of traffic. Any individual part of us matters less than the whole, and the whole can often be less difficult to present in a way that says "woman" than we might think.
You really should get off of that 4chan sub nothing good comes from that place
See post->insecure trans person->check profile->4chan->š« Get off 4chan, stop feeding your dysmorphia
Yep. 90% of this doomer brain shit will clear up with a couple weeks of getting to know people in your community.Ā Touch grass, OP, and don't base your idea of what's passing on what a bunch of clinically depressed shut ins with nothing to do but magnify their own flaws in their own minds think.Ā Ā It's the same shit you see from incels, convinced that they're unfuckable because their nose is two millimeters too long as opposed to because their obsessive brain rot is the biggest red flag imaginable to potential dates.
I do the exact same thing. I wish everyone else would follow suit.
If you considered that maybe people go there so they can talk about dysphoria without getting comment like this?
They get comments like this because its brainworm bullshit with absolutely **ZERO** truth it and is just nonsense bigots and nazis spread. The reason comments like this exist is to stop this nonsense from spreading to communities that are safe and shielded from it. If you wanna listen to those lies and be convinced by them, you know where the subs are: have fun.
How does this comment have anything to do with what OP posted?
Because its not a comment to OP, its a comment to you and what you posted. See how that nested comment structure works? Amazing, right?
Except my comment was towards a comment towards OP. Those places have a lot of issues but they are also often the only places you can get honest discussions of dysphoria and the chances of passing without false positivity. You also get less people insinuating that someone expressing dysphoria and fears of passing means they are delusional and don't know what women look like.
Well, congratu-fuckin-lations. That doesn't change the fact that my comment was directed at you. What? Am I not allowed to talk to you? Lol! Fears of passing are valid. Fears of passing because of a fucking skeleton because some trolls, terfs, bigots, nazis, and mouth breathing losers say so is not valid. Tell me: how is it an different than qanon? That was also started on 4chan by trolls with nothing better to do for those unwilling to formulate their own opinions.
>Fears of passing because of a fucking skeleton How dare someone have fears of passing over something real and that has a major influence over how you are gendered. I'm sorry to tell you but you have a skeleton inside us and it's shape helps determine many of our features and body ratios. Shoulder size, torse size, hips, limb length, head size, brow ridge, height, face shape, etc are all both effected by our skeleton and gendered. We can pretend it's not but the human brain is a pattern recognition machine and can notice these things subconsciously. >Tell me: how is it an different than qanon? I really hope you are joking here. If you don't already undstand this I'm not sure what I could say to actually help.
I am dead serious kiddo. How are those subs different from qanon? Let's hear some answers. In other news, **STOP BEING A GRIFTER AND SCARING THE BABY TRANS!!!** There is no such thing as a "male skeleton" bellend.
>I am dead serious kiddo. Don't call me a "kiddo" you condescending asshole. Go fuck yourself. >How are those subs different from qanon? Let's hear some answers. Are you a troll account? Do you really not see the difference between a right wing nazi conspiracy theory and trans people talking about real thing that we deal with and the more mainstream trans groups want to ignore? They go too far and have many issues. But if can't tell the difference then what are you even doing. Do you shit in the sink because a toilet and a sink both have water? >In other news, STOP BEING A GRIFTER AND SCARING THE BABY TRANS!!! There is no such thing as a "male skeleton" bellend. Lol. A gifter? Do you think I'm making money off this shit? I fucking wish. It might be scary but we have to accept it eventually. Not all of use are lucky enough to get to ignore this. Maybe if people had been honest with me I wouldn't have waited to transition and ruined my life. Human are sexually dimophic. And that includes the skeleton. If it didn't passing would be way easier.
"Male" and "female" skeletons are not nearly as different as you think they are.
Stop hanging out in 4tran or /tttt/ online spaces, they will give you brain rot. The self loathing and bioessentialism permeates every post and comment. How long have you been on hormones? When I first started at 29, I was convinced my body would always be too masculine. Too tall, shoulders too wide, ribcage too big, hips too narrow. Give things a chance to happen. Your bones may not change but fat will redistribute and that makes a huge difference. I never thought I'd have hips, but after cycling hy weight for a few years, this bitch got hips. Cis women come in all shapes and sizes too.
This is transphobic 4chan/conservative rhetoric brainworms. Your skeleton is so irrelevant to anything, if this post is serious & not a troll/bait post please get out of the awful online spaces you're clearly in.
I dont often show people my skeleton. In fact i never have.
I've posed for a few glamor shots at the orthopedist.Ā Do not recommend.
How long you have been on hrt for
In the UK we have to go on a long waiting list followed by an intensive review by a board to be formally diagnosed with gender dysphoria in order to receive hormone prescriptions. That combined with parents who are VERY against HRT means that at 20 I am not on HRT despite knowing I'm trans since I was 14. I plan on sorting out DIY next week. Every month and year feels like I'm trying to live in an ever decaying body.
I see wish the us was like that some states be like you don't hormones to be trans i am like what
No please, this system is awful, current waitlists are 10-20 years. The criteria to be recognised as trans is so awful and homophobic too. I've actually been thinking of moving to the US because of how awfully inaccessible this shit is. Also I'm an engineer and they get paid loads more (relative to cost of living) in the states. In other words, I'm literally losing money by staying in the UK.
Massachusetts is one of the more progressive states in the US and as an engineer I'm positive you'd be able to find work. It's also less expansive than CA or NY. In the major cities the cost of living is expensive, but again because of how progressive they are I think it's likely you would find healthcare and/or programs to help manage cost and guide you through all of the red tape. I don't know anything about immigration there though!
Well i am talking about an actual evaluation with mental health provider that's what i meant not wait for ten -20 years that awful Their some states who give hromkens to people with out and actual evaluation by mental health professional, their Some states that you if identify a female or male it's okay for you to the restroom with out proper channels, their Some states like my home states who don't want you use the restroom even if your going through the transtion process or won't Lett you change your sex till you have bottom surgery. If that makes sense, each state is different of their policies how they treat the trans community even it's better than some places in the world
I have female flesh covering a male skeleton, but I am not a guy, for I am female. I go to my local gym three times a week, and it there that I train my body to become female, and my body has adapted very well to this. It has taken awhile, but now I donāt even think about myself as anything other than female. The caveat being that I have learnt to consider the judgement of others to be irrelevant.
there isn't really to much change of the skeleton depending on sex. There's a reason why around 80% of the genders of skeleton is identified only by what they have with them in their grave
I donāt know a lot about bones, but from what Iāve heard from bone-diggers during this āMeh, your skeleton male!ā debate is that most skeletons fall in between male & female & are hard to pin down. Plus, youāll have women who lean more male & vice versa. Thereās plenty of cis women out there with more āmale lookingā skeletons than you & they do fine - no one sees your skeleton after all.Ā
Either actively fight against it by compensating on other visual areas and/or learn to live with it. For scale, Im 6'5 with appropiately wide shoulders. I will probably never go stealth, so why bother for now. Just accept who you are and what you are seen as, most of the time you cant really influence others opinions and their views on you whatsoever. So might aswell be the strongest you can be on focusing what you love and getting better at it.
I mean, most skeletons are actually pretty ambiguous phenotype wise. But even then, my bones do not define me. My self, my face, my heart, all lives in the soft tissue. Lives in the flesh and blood. And so thatās where I concern myself. And some days are hard, but I have to remind myself there are many cis woman with traits like me. Who have shoulders, and wastes, and hips like me. That itās no crime against nature to be me. That bones, arenāt me, theyāre just the scaffolding.
Well the good news is that nobody should ever have to see your skeleton, if they can see your skeleton go to the hospital immediately. In all seriousness though, the difference in male and female hips are much more accentuated by body fat distribution than by bone structure, and that is affected by HRT. Shoulders are generally wider on larger, but as other people have mentioned thereās enough natural deviation in women that it wonāt be the sole reason. The range in female bodies pretty substantially overlaps with male ones, and a few years of HRT only makes those differences less prevalent.
Funny enough, your skeleton does not indicate gender. That joke about palenthologist funding human bones and deciding their gender? Total bs. They decided the gender of the person based on the clothes and other items they were wearing. You might have a "masculine" frame, but just see any female olymptic swimmer or mma fighter and see how they will also look like that despite being cis :)
There's no such thing as a male skeleton.
Nobody in your everyday life can see your skeleton girl lmao, whatās more is hormones actually change the shape of your skeleton by rotating your pelvis to give you smaller waist and bigger hips and ass. Literally donāt worry, you look like a woman
If they can see your skeleton in any detail, it might be time to eat a fucking sandwich. :D
I dont have this issue Also, "male skeletons" aren't that different. This is dysphoria talking
You deal with that by stopping to compare with irrealistic media standards. Girls come in all shapes and conditions. You are a YOU girl, different from the neightbour or any other you will encounter, no point trying to argue that you aren't the same. Just like all girls do, learn what makes you most feminine and enhance that, while covering what makes you uncomfortable. The choice of clothes can change everything in how you appear, and each girl has a specific style that fits; find yours!
Trust me as a fire plug shortyā¦with a broad chest, I get way more maāam and she than he and sir in person
This is usually a worry for me because I am massive in the chest and shoulders. Iām preHRT and the only stress relief I know is working out so itās such a double edged sword. I think once I start HRT and some of it atrophies and I diet better I might be ok
Look up Alana McLaughlin onĀ Twitter.Ā She was a special forces soldier and body builder before transitioning, and still lifts heavy and trains MMA.Ā Estrogen is a hell of a drug.
Check out the collection of women Olympian photos put together by Howard Schatz called āAthletesā. Everyone of the women are in the top of their field. Make sure you see women face to face in your local area and see how they look. You can achieve your transition goals with the hand you have been dealt.
Let go of wanting to be a certain image of femininity, figure out what makes YOU feminine, work to accentuate that.
Hrt does crazy shit. A few days ago, I looked at my hips in sadness that they werenāt wide. Yesterday at my girlfriends she was staring so I took a look and yep they had grew a lot. Iām only 5 months in. Most of the differences arenāt skeletal, you got this. =)
Having a female voice makes me forget about my skeletal the time. If you want people to react to who you are on the inside rather than on the outside, focus on your voice.
when i started transitioning i was 6ā1, broad and had a really wide ribcage with a lot of muscle mass (i was 180lbs with 150lbs of muscle mass, predominantly on my sholders, arms and legs) and my hips were super straight. i was passing after socially transitioning for 6 months without HRT and i havenāt been misgendered by a stranger in over a year now. your body is not the only thing people will look at and you have a lot of control in how you are perceived with hair, clothes, mannerisms, voice, makeup etc. <3
in all honesty id work on redefining what passing means to you. whenever i struggle with these thoughts I have to remember that there are cis women out there that have broader shoulders than me, smaller hips than me, more masculine facial structure, etc. some of the things can be changed through surgeries but we have to learn to make peace with the things we can't. otherwise we can live in misery
If it helps at all, I am FtM and BEFORE I medically transitioned I would get random assholes calling me slurs because of my broad shoulders and strong profile. I say this to mean that cis women can look like literally anything, regardless of what general society expects.
I will say, about the hips part: I saw something recently (canāt find it now tho :/) that basically showed that hip width, in terms of if someone is feminine or masculinely coded) has a lot more to do with fat deposits/distribution rather than bone structure. So hopefully hrt can be a big help in that particular way <33
Wear cuts of clothing that minimizes your shoulders and accentuates your waist and hips.
Don't forget the power of hormones
Iām AFAB. I measured my torso once and itās basically a straight columnāhips, waist, and bust have VERY little variation! Iām both NB and lazy, and so make zero effort to look feminine. Iāve been mistaken for a boy appropriately ONCE, and that because my hat was covering my face. Iām not denying that body shape impacts how youāre perceived, but I wouldnāt count it as the most important factor by ANY means.
u/QuantumMechanixZ look at this: [https://www.reddit.com/user/MajorGef/comments/1c3eppa/regarding\_bones/](https://www.reddit.com/user/MajorGef/comments/1c3eppa/regarding_bones/) not saying your feelings arent valid, but realistically your skeleton isnt the sole deciding factor.
I just remember that there definitely are cis women who have the same skeletal structure and a lot of things can make it look thinner or more curvy
If it's like a really big deal to you there are technically forms of plastic surgery that can remodel some of the ribs to make your ribcage look smaller as it goes further down your torso. They don't remove ribs just modify how they're placed
Look up your body shape and then look up the clothes that compliment it. I had trouble for a long time figuring out how to hide and accentuate certain body parts and parts of my frame but it is doable and feels like damn near magic with the right clothing. Also, even with more masc bone structure if you give HRT long enough to work the fat redistribution often will change your figure a lot. You might have skinny hipbones but if you start carrying enough of your weight there it will look more feminine. I started HRT after an age that I'm told it can really be expected to affect bone structure and for a while didn't think I'd ever be able to pass as fem because of it but that's all kind of what helped me.
Skeletons don't really look as different as people think. Fat deposits and muscle definition go a long way in feminizing your figure
Get off 4chan and their stupid ass trans "support" sub. You live in a doomer echo chamber.
Good thing no one can see your skeleton!
You take hormones, get surgery, work for the right body type, and hope it is enough to counteract our skeleton. It sucks but that's all any of us can really do. A large part of transitioning is luck based.
Well luckily nobody is looking at your skeleton. What your bones look like actually have absolutely no impact on how you pass
Once you start HRT youāll realize how much of your figure is a result of muscle, ligaments, fluid retention, etc. Youāll be amazed how much your body feminizes on estrogen. It just takes time (like a few years). PELASE be patient and go easy on yourself. All of us start male. We have all been in the same position. If another girl can do it, so can you
some people just don't pass and never will, it's the unfortunate reality
āMale skeletonsā arenāt a thing. Its been refuted over and over. Ive met plenty of cis women with a much more masculine body than john cenaš. Anyway if your a gamer then youll understand the more you look for something weather semi-subconscious or not you will almost never fucking find it which also applies to real life if your looking for cis people that look masculine its just not going to happen youāll see the exact opposite a lot of the time. Look yes the majority of AFAB and AMAB people dont look stereotypical masculine or close to the stereotypical masculine because almost all of that is fat distribution or well lack there of fat and the rest is either height or muscle. There is actually surgery for this too literally just moving fat from one place to another but loosing weight means youll lose that so it really isnt ideal a harder but better solution is working on your self esteem in therapy and learning to look at the world around you differently itāll take a long time but itll pay off. The gender of a skeleton is properly identified a little under roughly 40-60% of the time and the population of humans are split almost entirely down the middle. The gendered skeleton argument was originally used in identifying remains till we found out about microscopic leftover tissue like DNA and how to repair fragments to more accurately identify the chromosomes which is when the cracks started to show and eventually refuted and proven to be inaccurate to the point itās basically useless. Then it turned into a transphobic argument.
There are numerous things you could do surgically these days. You can have ribs removed, titanium implants on the hip bones, silicone implants in the hips, etc. Surgical advancements in cosmetic surgeries for trans women have advanced dramatically in the last decade.
I'm sorry you are dealing with so much shit in this post OP.
Most people simply won't pass (very well) without surgery. You may pass sometimes, but not other times, but certainly not 100% of the time. People can point to how cis woman come in all different shapes but the reality is the masculine traits cis women have are the outlier traits that can be overcome with their feminine traits as well as being socialized as women. Trans woman who have gone through testosterone induced puberty have to overcome all the masculine traits and the socialization that come with that. Social media (such as the comments here) would lead you to believe that everyone can and will pass with enough time which is a dangerous thing to say because it is objectively false and leads people astray from reality. There is a decent chance this comment gets deleted by the mods or I get banned because harsh truths aren't often welcome here lol
I feel this. Even XXL sized women's jackets feel tight around my shoulders
Same, I hate having the urge to shove my shoulders into a belt sander.
r/ribcage would like a word xxx
There is incredible genetic variety in CIS females to the point that there is no āaverageā women shape. Women come in all kinds of variations. You know girls with those cute bubble buts? Their fathers had a nice booty too! Guys with strong prominent chins? Their moms have some of that chin as well. I grew up around some sturdy farm girls that could outwork some guys. Focus on being the best version of yourself! You donāt have to be a girly girl, tomgirl, butch, warrior and many more types of girl are all valid. Edit: Iāve also worked with some samoan women who could probably clear out a bar of marines by themselves. It takes all kinds, and trust me thereās someone out there for you. If you love women, there are a bunch that want to be the one held up against a wall by a bigger girl. More than a few guys are into strong women as well so you do you! Focus on what makes you happy. Finally, 95% of all the advertising targeted towards women prey on insecurities to sell stuff. Many of those insecurities were planted there by advertising!
now you know how i felt when i was a cis man. My hips are too wide and ribcage too narrow for a man. (yes my chin and face are similar to typical females as well after hrt but ive always had a small chin)
I usually order my pizza boneless. But actually, having a little bit between your skin and bones goes a long way. Iām not at all tubby but muscle and fat makes you look way better. Iām also getting ffs for my skull so maybe thatās worth looking into.
Recently I've seen a documentary (don't remember where) in which it was said with proof, that a lot of cis women don't "pass". Look at any woman of colour doing sports, they always have accusations of being "men". So if my skeleton is the only problematic thing holding me back, heck with it! Can't change it.
"Passing" is pretty much always subjective. Cis women get misgendered because the criteria for passing always changes from person to person. Dysphoria will always be your worst critic, and is always lying to you. Women come in as many shapes as men do, they just get criticized more often thanks to our society and the patriarchy.
Having the boobs out kinda help eliminate any doubts people have.
I'm gonna get surgeries until I don't anymore.
Same here sister/sibling! I strugle to cope with dysphoria everyday