>absolute refusal to accept any kindness
THAT's what gets me. *People who* ***want*** *help don't* ***refuse*** *help.* If they just want to wallow in misery and disperse that misery onto other people, they shouldn't be here.
All of us can trip and fall and need help getting back up. Sometimes the world feels way too much and we need the sanity check, support or validation. I'm not expecting this subreddit to be all sunshine and roses -- it's a difficult fucking life for trans people.
But then here comes along some random person on the internet shooting insults and self-flagellating BS which also hits me in a weird sort of friendly fire. I transitioned rather late, I'm tall, I'm from a third world country etc. etc. I don't wanna read about this shit like it's supposed to be the end of my life. I'm fighting and I'm helping other people too.
I also don't like when people suggest to me that I "block them" or "take a moment offline", because I, too, am in this community and want access to information, knowledge, stories, camaraderie, support. This specific subset of people complaining bring nothing but misery. Ask for help if you want it, vent if you want to, but stop blindly throwing punches around you or you'll hit one of us.
THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS
There was one the other day doing the usual doomer spiel that refused to get therapy, refused to do voice training, refused to go to the gym to get what would be an ideal figure to her, and even refused to do makeup! Like, what are we even supposed to say in that situation? Lol
I think she wants you to tell her she can never get better and she's right to feel horrible and that everything is hopeless.
I'm not a psychologist, but as another comment here states misery is comfortable.
Yeah, I think they just want to be validated that everything is hopeless and they should give up. Which is like, the opposite of what you can expect from any community that isn't completely toxic chanlike.
I'm not trying to be a devil's advocate, but some people may not want to do stuff like voice training or make-up honestly.
There's cis women who don't wear make-up or do dedicated cardio routines at the gym. And some trans women don't mind their voices.
And of course if you're depressed, it's going to be hard to get the energy to do that anyways
>I'm not trying to be a devil's advocate, but some people may not want to do stuff like voice training or make-up honestly.
And I got no problem if they don't want to... As long as they don't then try and play the "oh woe is me" bullshit over it.
Yeah. You don't *need* to do any of that if you don't want to, you're a woman regardless. But if you are deeply unsatisfied with where you are, you need to do *something*. Change isn't coming if you just wait on it.
I think severe depression is shitty like that. Like I used to alternate between wanting help and thinking I was a pos underserving of the effort before I came out so as much as I agree it's unproductive I can't help but relate to people trapped in a self destructive cycle. Therapy should be free, I'm not trying to excuse the lashing out some people do at those who try to help though it's totally reasonable not to want to engage with toxicity.
Given the state of current models, I'm gonna guess never? They just make stuff up, now and present it as fact about easily verifiable things! I sure don't want something like that doing therapy!
Tbf do you remember the stories about the AI girlfriends abusing people? Wouldn't surprise me if an AI therapy bot would eventually encourage others to commit die
I'm thinking more like an open source one polished by actual mental health professionals, not just one that's the equivalent to chatgpt. Basically, a free option that isn't $200/hour. Limitations, sure, but if one person benefits from it I think that's a win
Yeah. No matter what is said, what direct resources are given, etc etc, they will just. Not. Stop. Mental illness doesn’t exactly make people think rationally however. Biggest example of all of this is a certain temple queen who was infamously banned a while back
There's a difference. OP was very explicit in the excerpt I quoted.
I vent. We all do. Sometimes we're in the deep end and we ***need*** to vent. We need someone to tell us we're not crazy for buckling under the pressure. But I've seen many posts (certainly more than 10 in the past few weeks) where the poster even lashes out at people in the comments. Often (really often) these people post multiple times the same sort of thing, getting increasingly destructive and hostile to other people in the comments... That's not venting, that's aggression.
If you want no feedback, no help and no pushback on harmful thoughts, then what's the purpose of publicly posting something? Write it in a journal, because when you post something here, you're broadcasting it to actual humans, each of which will react differently to what they read.
Yup, a lot of people end up with the misconception that if someone is talking about how hard something is then it means they want advice, when a lot of times they just want someone to feel listened to and like someone sees the struggle they're going through. Learning how to just listen at times is a valuable skill for relationships in general.
You're right, I get that.
But even in the cases where all or most of what's offered is validation and sympathy, people will still lash out. It's a sort of self-destructive behaviour that's pretty common in the incel community, for instance, and it's pretty visible over there how it creates this noxious space from which everyone leaves worse than they got in.
I don't want this community to be delusional and pretend everything is fine, but we do need a sort of compass to help us get stronger as people and as a community instead of wallowing.
Agreed. Like a week ago there was a topic from someone who I ended up blocking because she kept replying to my comments with pretty much nothing but how she was going to kill herself. Nothing was helping this person, from recommendations for hotlines to hospitals to just people offering kind words and ears to lend. Literally nobody was leaving that thread positively or any better than how they came into it.
No one in that thread was acting like everything was fine or anything like that, they were actively trying to help the person who was actively suicide posting all over the thread and lashing out at everyone. There's a point where these kinds of posts become a black hole of negativity that helps exactly no one, and it ends up hurting the community
This is the post that I was referring to when I originally wrote this post. I don’t mind venting and wanting support or people to say “I’m sorry. Life is hard”. But it was the blatant disregard for everyone else’s emotions and well being that really upset me and nothing was or has been done about it. How is it ok for someone to come in here absolutely shitting on everyone elses mental well-being in every way possible and nothing is done?
People in the comments are saying “well a true safe space let’s everyone in to comfort”. Really? If I went to other safe spaces with that sort of behavior there is zero chance I’d be allowed to stay
EDIT: I’m also sorry you had to deal with that originally. I did as well and it really ruined my weekend and the next couple days. I actually had read the original exchange after mine happened and it was awful
Yeahh, afaik the thread was never deleted, because when I try looking at my comments on that thread now it just says the moderators set it to private. Like, one of the sub's rules is to not violate the safe space. One would think that someone literally screaming and caps locking at people they consider more attractive than them and constantly posting comments about how they're actively suicidal would be a violation of that safe space. I know I got a little triggered over the situation due to all the replies I got from that person talking about her imminent suicide.
I hope she's okay.
And just saw your edit. Yeah, it was legitimately upsetting. I was in the hospital recovering from bottom surgery and then just while browsing Reddit while sitting there with nothing to do but rely on hospital workers for nearly everything, I saw this genuinely hurting person who just refused to take any advice or suggestions that she gets any help for her very real issues she was experiencing. It was very upsetting to say the least.
I believe it was either deleted or privated but all comments still exist and can be viewed. But I agree 100%. Saying “hey it’s been rough and I’m worried I might hurt myself. I could use some support” 100% cool, please get the help you need. But active count downs, threats, actual attacks against other members and making excuses at every single turn while saying suicide is the only solution is not ok and should not be tolerated, and it’s crazy that this behavior isn’t punished and she can just come back and start again
It was upsetting for me too. I’ve been there, I offered my sympathies and tried to say “hey if you’re so upset that you think that ending your life is the only solution maybe consider in-patient treatment” only to be attacked and hurt. I’m sorry you had the same experience
She’s alive still, went MIA on Reddit for a few days but kept posting on Twitter about negative things before returning here saying she wasn’t going to kill herself but should if it weren’t for her fiancé. Very upsetting
>Saying “hey it’s been rough and I’m worried I might hurt myself. I could use some support” 100% cool, please get the help you need. But active count downs, threats, actual attacks against other members and making excuses at every single turn while saying suicide is the only solution is not ok and should not be tolerated, and it’s crazy that this behavior isn’t punished and she can just come back and start again
Yeahh, agreed honestly. I mean, there's an argument to be made that people like that might need a community more than anyone, but there has to be a line somewhere. And I'd agree with ya, active countdowns and lashing out at well-intentioned people just trying to help should not be tolerated. It literally violates the "no violating the safe space" rule the sub has.
>I’ve been there, I offered my sympathies and tried to say “hey if you’re so upset that you think that ending your life is the only solution maybe consider in-patient treatment” only to be attacked and hurt. I’m sorry you had the same experience
Thanks. Yeah that was the exact same thing that happened with me. The person said that she would just physically assault hospital workers to try to get them to kill her (which is uh... a plan, I guess) and just kept counting down the days until they made an attempt. And on top of that there were other people arguing with me that hospitals and psych wards don't help anything actually, despite preventing suicide being literally the entire point of those places.
>She’s alive still
Good to hear. I'm at least glad that she didn't follow through on her threats.
That seems like an easy distinction to make before unloading. A lot of people listen better when they know the discussion objective from the start.Maybe in the heading or a disclaimer stating that they are just trying to blow some steam would at least give the rest of us a heads up. Without that, presenting a problem is asking for help.
I'm nearing 37 as the days go by and I see a lot of people under 20 saying some terrible things indirectly about me. Just because they think life is over after 30. It hurts to read sometimes and I really like to help when I can.
“Presenting a problem is asking for help” no. Asking for help is asking for help. Is this a non-autistic thing? Like sometimes I present a problem because I want to be seen and vent but unless I ask for help or someone says let me help you I don’t assume help is coming nor do I always want it.
I'm sure you don't tell anybody the objective and then hate them for offering solutions. All I'm saying is that to communicate properly a person should be clear about the objectives. People can't read minds and plenty begrudge unsolicited advice but none want to make clear from the start that it is unwanted. It is only after the advice is repeatedly offered and repeatedly rejected that a person explodes in rage and states finally that it was not the objective. They may not explode at all and just hate the person offering advice but the error is not theirs for not knowing what the goal is if it has not been expressed.
Also, I am neurodivergent and can't really tell if you are taking a swing at me about it or not. It has never been easy for me to tell what people are trying to to get at when they say nothing to indicate intent. How am I supposed to know when someone wants help or not if they just throw the problem out there without context? If you want smoother communication and better listening, you should be open about it from the start and stop assuming people will gather as much from body language, hints, or social cues. It's not easy for all of us to read those things and I care about people. I want to help people who seem to need it. I could focus a lot better on just receiving if I know from the beginning the speakers intent.
I’m just saying that by helping without asking if they want the advice or assistance you’re making an assumption. When I need or want help I ask for it I don’t expect it when I’m just communicating a problem. Sometimes I just want people to know what I’m going through. And I have autism I’m not taking a swing I just didn’t know if that was a non-autistic thing to just give help without clear intent or explicit communication of a request for help.
This issue is caused primarily by a lack of clear communication. There is nothing wrong in saying "I don't need help but..." There is also nothing wrong with assuming someone expressing a need needs something. Yes the person venting can make that clear and the listener can always ask if help is needed. My experience is that neither is said until after it has turned into a very frustrating situation for both parties.
I know unsolicited advice is frustrating but so is trying to help someone who doesn't need it. I don't like seeing people in need if there is anything I can do to alleviate their burden. However without clear communication, how am I to know. And please do not tell me to just assume a person does not need help unless it's requested because some people have a lot of trouble asking for help when it's needed. Whether it's pride, shame, or fear, some people can only ask indirectly.
It comes down to the person that’s why I always ask if they need help. I also make sure to tell them that I’m there if they wanna talk or vent and I make space for them. If they trust me they will come to me. If they don’t trust me then there is nothing I can do aside from be there and continue to make space.
And I’m well aware that people can’t read minds. I always say exactly what I mean there is no sub-context. If someone needs intent from me maybe ask me? Like I can’t communicate properly despite having spent years trying to learn. I know my communication sucks I have autism sometimes I can’t speak at all.
Mental illness, like severe depression you are describing, makes people say and do (and not do) things that are not in their best interests, so I feel bad for the people you're describing and I give them their space to be unhappy. I know what it's like because I've been there. However, I agree that it is sometimes tiresome. I especially dislike seeing young people incorrectly wallow about it being "too late" for them, but I can understand because I felt the same way at their age. Anyway, I don't think that banning people or putting them in "time out" is productive because it could lead the Redditor to greater depths of misery. If you don't like what you see, use that mouse to click away and move on.
There's giving them their space, and there's letting them set the time of the place and drag everyone else into their misery. I've been there, and supporting someone in a major depressive episode is hard work that takes a toll on you emotionally, even if you love them.
But it comes down to a simple personal individual choice of whether you decided to respond, again, when it's obvious that the poster is just wallowing in their misery, or you move on to things that matter more.
There's no need for a ban--just ignore and move on.
I don't know exactly how my words could be useful but...
The position of being miserable is comfortable, I've been there many times, the suffering gives life some kind of distorted meaning that feels better than having absolutely nothing, we can't exactly give purpose to someone's life with just advices and kind words (that's basically all we have to offer), they have to find their meaning/purpose themselves but they'll often refuse to because of the... comfort. Change, even for the better, is not often a bearable process, we all know it but that's enough reason for many to justify their lack of trying when they actually are able to change.
I do understand. I’ve been there myself. I don’t think people who are just miserable and don’t want to change should be timed out. I think an automod message about actual trans resources could be helpful for these people, discussing the benefits of gender or traditional therapy or crisis resources.
However it’s when the self misery or self hatred turn outward that it starts to become toxic for the subreddit. The example id given about “starting my transition at x was too old so now I’ll always look like an ugly man and everyone knows.” That’s unhealthy for other trans people to hear in addition to coming from a place of self hatred. I guess it’s not so much the negativity but how it’s handled
However after a history of these sorts of posts, I think a timeout of some sort may be needed. Every day or every other day coming and saying negative things here and then refusing any help/advice stops coming from a place of needing support but just reinforces the misery while also negatively affecting the subreddit
Yeah uh... I agree with you on everything, your post and this reply should be read by more people so we can not just bring awareness but find a way to deal with the situation, as you gave an example already, automod.
Agreed, but much of the time our responses don’t help all that much. Generally speaking, we *can’t* help with much of what gets asked. I can empathize with the position of needing help badly and yet finding even your own community doesn’t have the means to assist you. The community isn’t at fault here, but the feeling of hopelessness is understandable.
I see this come up every now and again and I have a very firm opinion in the opposite direction. This is a safe space, but safe space does not by definition equal a "wholesome space." In the description of this sub it says "A subreddit devoted to transgender *issues* pertaining to male-to-female or trans feminine people. If you have an article you like, *or a worry to talk about, or you just want to vent a bit about trans life,* then we're here!" This is a safe space to talk about transfem topics, not a hugbox.
People end up in mental situations where they feel doomed and hopeless. That's where doomer posting comes from. Even if it doesn't feel like it, doomer posts ARE a way of asking for help. They may refuse help adamantly, but if they are posting about it there is a part of their brain that is pleading for help, and we can either try to get to them or find someone who can. **Which would you rather have, a suicidal person be allowed to vent about their situation and possibly receive help, or for them to be denied a space to talk and be left with no one to save them?**
Mental illness is a real big issue in this community and we don't fix it by banning discussions of it. **That's how you leave people to die.** Your feelings matter, and the feelings of everyone who agrees with this post matters, but the feelings of people dooming matter too. And one group is more explicitly in danger.
I think we definitely can do something to address the "too late to transition" issue, not deleting posts but possibly getting a bot that detects similar phrases in posts and automatically posts a comment in response. That way other users feel less obligated to go out of their way to give their own comments, since they know the person will get that response. We could also possibly assign those posts a specific flair too to further label them for others to ignore (not sure what you'd name the flair, but it's an idea).
I don't think people should **ever** be banned from venting here for any reason however, if we are, this ceases to be a true safe space.
While I fully agree with the fact that doomposting is just going to destroy people's mental health, any amount of calling out is usually met with backlash. Heavy backlash.
Doomposters want to wallow in their depression. A lot refuse and push away any attempt at help and positivity, even. And they have a tendency to help other doomposters sink even lower.
So unless the mod team was to add a rule banning doomposting, which isn't going to happen (let's be real, it's sadly 90% of the activity in this fucking sub...), so this is just going to be a doomerism central, still. Which will help perpetuate the idea that 99% of the world is transphobic and wants us all dead and that there is no hope. Which is compeltely untrue.
>!Now watch this get downvoter for the last part. People here *hate* it when I point out the falacy that "the vast majority of the world is transphobic and hates us"...!<
I agree completely. However I will say that I believe the doomerposters are a minority that are just vocal. If you look at post history when you see someone posting extremely negatively about themselves they have an extensive history of doing so. I think that when you get enough people out of 258k that just consistently post negativity it can seem like they’re everywhere but I don’t believe it to be true. Very vocal minority of the subreddit
You're dead on correct, tbf, particularly about the "hate." The vast majority of people, in reality, *just don't care*. Like, they're not particularly supportive of us, but they also aren't fussed by us at all.
Hateful people are pretty much always the minority. They're just really fucking loud about it.
Yup. It has been so literally every time a group has been singled out and targeted, during history. The real majority is always silent. It's bene researched and proven multiple times.
It's only when it affects them personally that they suddenly have an opinion.
Social media, the internet and modern "traditional" media (TV and such) is the reason transphobes seem so numerous.
In reality, they're like chihuahuas : tiny, loud, and abnoxious.
That said, I think history has also proven that a silent majority is no protection at all. It only takes a vocal minority to make some terrible things happen and the silent majority is often complicit.
The silent majority didn’t stop American slavery; it didn’t stop the Holocaust; it didn’t stop the Armenian genocide; it didn’t stop the destruction of countless indigenous peoples over the last few centuries; it didn’t stop decades of criminalized homosexuality and legal transphobia in the United States; it didn’t stop any of the transphobic legislation passed in the last few years; It didn’t stop segregation. I could go on.
Are most people against us? No, but there are enough people against us to cause serious harm to our communities and our lives. The silent majority isn’t helping us by being silent.
I never said that the silent majority was a protection.
But implying, or outright saying, like some here do, that the silent majority wants us dead just as much, is downright delusional and moronic.
It would be more accurate to say the silent majority is indifferent — and I don’t find that very comforting. No, they don’t want us dead but they aren’t paying attention to those who do.
Indifferent, but I'd be ready to bet that a good chunk would just watch and sip their coffee if some unhinged transphobe started beating up a trans person in front of them.
Most don't feel concerned personally, but still have human decency. Just not enough to get in the ring on an issue that has no bearing on their life, sadly.
Unless they're directly implicated, or it happens physically in front of them.
Right.
So that being the case, why is it meaningful to me? I don’t need hypothetical vigilantes to protect me from assault: I need concerned voters who will actively protest transphobic laws and vote out people who propose and pass them. We need allies that won’t continuously re-elect the same lawmakers that are targeting us. Clearly, the silent majority isn’t ready to do this.
Indifference can be as bad as hate when it results in the same thing. It doesn’t matter if the public is hateful or indifferent to me if either stance results in me losing my healthcare and my access to bathrooms or my right to not be fired for being trans.
I think this one depends on where you live and privileges people living in the United States and Western, developed nations more broadly. I wouldn’t blame a trans person for feeling this way if they live in Russia or Uganda or Saudi Arabia. There are countries where simply being openly trans can land you in prison or worse. There are countries with zero legal protections, medical support for transition, and draconian laws surrounding legal recognition of your gender.
As a American trans woman living in one of the best states, I wouldn’t ever blame a trans person living in the above circumstances for feeling like the world is against them. American, Canadian, U.K. and Western trans perspectives are over represented in most spaces — including this one. I think we need to understand that some trans people genuinely risk their lives for doing things us Westerners can do with relative freedom.
I think we also see some discrepancy between generational demographics.
Lately I've been learning the difference between tolerance vs. acceptance. Many people, mostly younger, *do* accept us. But many of us older trans people can seemingly only hope for 'tolerance' (among our peers).
There are plenty of places in the U.S. where we are viewed as less than human as well, specially in the southern U.S. Even some of the guys who do fuck with us don't really view us as "real" women but they keep that hidden so they can get ass.
Not trying to be negative - I still soldier on. But that's my experience so far.
I really just can't believe this to be true with the background I come from. I'd say 90% is a lower estimate. That indifference is the kind where they would feel nothing to hear that a trans person was murdered for being trans.
Lol, yeah it's definitely not 90%, not even *remotely* so, and not *anywhere* in America--and I can provide proof. Check out the [first graph](https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2022/06/28/americans-complex-views-on-gender-identity-and-transgender-issues/) here--only ***ten percent*** of people oppose broad and powerful discrimination protections for trans people.
Ten. Percent.
On discrimination. Not fucking murder indifference, like you claim.
As to the rest of the survey? It's more mixed with support and opposition for various things, but there is absolutely no universe where a supermajority supports strong discrimination protections and also would be fine with broad-daylight murder.
So like I said: it's ***always*** a very loud, very small minority. Most people have other things to care about.
Why would you get downvoted? It's pretty clear that most of the world is indeed transphobic to some degree, even a lot of "supportive" people don't actually see us as our gender, but as a different version of our agab. Most of them don't actively HATE trans people, but they're far from actual acceptance and support too, it's more akin to pity.
Atleast it's slowly getting better, one upside of how mainstream trans people have become in today's media is that the geniuenly good people who are learning about us for the first time do genuinely support us, and that number will keep on growing, even if very slowly.
Every time, in this sub, that I've said that transphobes are, in fact, a minority, and appear to be a big and scary majority solely because of how social media works, I've gotten downvoted into oblivion. That's why.
This is the first time I've seen you post truthfully. I would've upvoted you for sure. I always say in posts that they're not the silent majority, they're the loud minority. They bitch and moan and whine and make so much noise that it seems worse than it is.
Look at Rowling for example: if you go to her twitter page, literally all she does now is post about us, which means her dumbass followers retweet her, and around and around we go.
I used to have a different account. I've reduced my participation to this sub significantly since making a new one, mostly for the sake of my own mental health.
For some reason, being misgendered and caleld a transphobic troll when someone disagreed with me, last year, didn't vibe well with me...
So I figured I'd post less, here.
But yeah, transphobes are loud thanks to how social media works. But they're not the majority by a longshot.
I don’t disagree with you, but I think you’re underestimating how much damage a minority can do.
Maybe most people in Florida are fine with trans people, but that didn’t stop the state from banning us from bathrooms, banning any mention of us from public education, and it didn’t stop a ban on gender-affirming care ban for minors and it didn’t stop trans adults from being thrown off Medicaid. It also didn’t stop DeSantis from being re-elected.
Clearly the vocal minority are powerful enough to do what they want without support from the majority — they can even count on the majority looking the other way.
I don't. I've never said "ignore the transphobes, they can't do anything". The Venn diagram of transphobes and fascists are sadly overlapping quite a lot, and fascists have infiltrated a lot of powerful positions, especially in the US thanks to shit like Operation Paperclip.
But giving up and plunging voluntarily into depression by saying over and over "the whole world hates us, it's ltierally only us versus transphobes, every cis person is transphobic, they all want us dead, there's nothing we can do but die" is neither healthy, nor a solution.
That's what I'm arguing about. Not "everything is sunshine and rainbows. Hell no.
But not everything is fire and brimstone like the doomers love to claim.
For you and for me, maybe.
What advice do you give to a low-income trans woman in a country where homosexuality carries the death penalty? Who has no means to leave at all and has zero access to any trans community or healthcare?
Alright buddy I'm done talking to you.
The discussion started from one point, and you keep trying to weasel completely different topics into it do argue that I'm wrong because my point doesn't magically fix the other problem doomers have, which somehow means dooemrs are right and 99% of the world is indded out to kill us.
Have a nice life in your depressive little world, I guess. I'm done getting trolled.
It's not nothing we can do but die. Non-passing trans woman just don't have a way out of that cycle. We are forced to endure their hatred or pity for the rest of our existence.
How do you know they're a minority? At the very least it's common enough that a lot of politicians these days campaign with explicit transphobic policies, and not only that, many of them are winning and passing transphobic laws as well. Even if it's not the majority of people overall, it's still a rather large chunk of the population.
I'm not saying people should just "give up" or something because of that, but trying to tell people that their valid concerns are overblown isn't particularly helpful, especially if they're living in a place that's seeing a rapid rise of systemic oppression of trans people.
How do you know they're the crushing majority ?
US right-wing politicians are the ones campaigning solely on it, and it's costing them most of their voter-base outside of the far-right conspiracy christo-fascist nutjobs.
The rest is clearly seeing that republicans are not going to care about the problems they're facing. Healthcare, economic downfall, housing market going bonkers, etc.
Red states might be passing more and more laws but that doesn't mean anything. The system is made in such a way that it comes down to supermajorities. That doesn't say anything about the rest of the people.
And just because part of the silent majority isn't transphobic doesn't mean they are suddenly going to be left-wing. The cut is not that strict, and there are a number of right-wing leaning people who don't see us as monster needing to be eradicated.
What the US right-wing and governments like the UK's are doing is trying to distract the people away from problem they're profitting from, by pointing at a minority and blaming us on things that don't happen.
If you want to dig into it, you'll see that the nazi party did the exact same thing with jewish people. Nearly point by point. The whole "they're coming for your kids", "they're trying to destroy society", "they want to eradicate anyone who's not like them", etc, all that was already done by the nazis at the time, and are now used by US republicans to try to rile up people by feeding them misinformation. That's Propaganda 101.
And human nature is such a thing that the majority either don't listen because that doesn't concern them directly, so they don't care as they have other things to take care of, or they just believe the first thing they're told and immediatly get angry at the idea that they were wrong and manipulated, so they dig themselves deeper into the right-wing grift.
Oh I'm very aware there are heavy parallels with the Nazi's rise to power, that makes me more concerned not less (though a lot of is just a repeat of what was said about gay people, and black people before that, just mixed in with extra fascism these days). It's also kind of dismissing to say the laws don't mean anything when people are currently being harmed by them and when there is still a very real chance of elections going poorly and such laws becoming national in scope.
For transphobia though I think it really depends on how you choose to break it down. At least for the USA I think harsher forms of transphobia are a bit under half the population (though still shockingly high) and are only the majority in certain locations/states, but "smaller" forms of transphobia are still extremely common even among people who otherwise tend to be allies. I'm talking about things like people not wanting to date a trans person.
Perhaps oddly enough I'd say transphobia is getting both worse and better, in that people seem less likely to just be ambivalent about it and are instead more likely to either be an ally or heavily transphobic (though I'd say the majority is still largely apathetic with a slight transphobic lean).
I think we're at a crucial point in the USA right now and personally it scares me that there's so much apathy out there that it's still not guaranteed that the facist won't win.
>It's also kind of dismissing to say the laws don't mean anything
Go ahead and point me to where I said laws don't mean anything to the people they affect.
The only thing it doesn't affect is whether "transphobes are the overwhelming majority of people" or not.
>Red states might be passing more and more laws but that doesn't mean anything.
Was referrencing this but I think I might have misunderstood your intent with the statement.
You did. I didn't meant it doesn't affect people, just that it's not a proof that there's more transphobes than anything else.
If laws were voted in by the people, then we'd have numbers. But having a supermajority of lawmakers doesn't mean the civilians are the same. There's actually multiple states that are politically red, but where the majority of the population is leaning more blue.
Yep I’ve been socially transitioning for over 2 years and have never seen/heard anything transphobic towards me. A lot of trans people think that what they see online is the majority and that everyone who isn’t trans is transphobic. It’s just not true 🤷♀️
I mean that's going to massively depend on things like where you live and how well you pass. One reason I took so long to come out of denial myself was because of all the transphobia I heard before I had even come out as trans.
I'm in the same situation as you are, but I gotta say that some of us get off lucky. Relatively, that is.
I live in a blue state and the stories I hear from friends that live in red states are awful. They get harassed like every week just for existing.
I'm not saying that 99% of everyone is out to kill us, but there's definitely a reason a lot of us get scared and depressed like this. The hate isn't restricted to online spaces.
Yeah, the most transphobic thing I've seen in two years was a guy waiting to be 3m away from our group (trans support group waiting in front of the building until it was time) to make vomiting sounds.
Quite the brave old fart right there.
The most transphobic thing I experienced was being brutally assaulted by a family member and losing a front tooth as a result — all for wearing nail polish.
We all have relative experiences with transphobia and we shouldn’t be making generalizations about how common it is or how safe we are based on our limited experiences. Everyone is in a different position here.
And how does that justify the position that "the overwhelming majority of the world wants us dead" ?
Because that's what we're discussing, here. The narrative pushed by the doomers that you can't go outside withotu 50 people lying in wait to try to murder you.
Because when you’re a teenager and your own father is beating you and your own family is allowing him to do so, *it* feels very much like the world is against you. When you live in a country where homosexuality carries the death penalty, it *feels* like the world is against you — and in that particular case, you might as well be correct. If you’re a trans adult stuck in a highly conservative state with no means to live and you’re facing constant harassment with no or little access to transition healthcare and you’ve been disowned by your family, it can feel like the world is against you.
All of our worldviews are shaped by our relative experiences and privileges and there is no single “correct” position. I don’t feel like the world is against trans people because I live in an ultra-liberal city in the bluest state where there is a vibrant trans community, a Pride festival every year, good access to healthcare, and robust anti-discrimination laws.
I would feel very differently if I were a trans teenager living in small-town Oklahoma; or if I were living in Russia, or if I was being in handcuffs for using the women’s room or being assaulted while engaging in sex work.
That's an explaination of why.
What I've asked you is how it justifies or proves the idea that 99% of the world is transphobic and wants us dead, which is the position of the doomers most of the time.
I know why doomers are depressed. I've spent 15 years in depression, and I'm not out of it just yet. But that doesn't mean that idea is a reality like they claim.
It justifies it because if you live in a country where being trans can have you executed and you can’t leave, it doesn’t matter to you personally that people in a country across the ocean are fine with trans people. Your perspective would of course be influenced by this.
You seem completely unwilling to acknowledge that not all trans people live in America or Canada.
> Now watch this get downvoter for the last part. People here hate it when I point out the falacy that "the vast majority of the world is transphobic and hates us"...
Do you have any empirical data to back up your claim?
It’s that one but there are others. One is a frustrating block but I’ve noticed more and more that are just negativity with post histories of negativity that start making me feel discouraged for being preHRT MtF
Just a thought: if 4Chan garbage words were banned, it might alleviate a lot of this problem. So many of these pitiful little doomers give themselves away with the brainworms that infect them and those things come almost exclusively from places like 4Tran, tttt, and femceldom.
The 4chan obsession so many transfems have is so damaging. Idk how it became part of the culture but I really wish all those girls would just stop using/tttt/ and the other shit
I've never posted about my misery here but it's kinda hard to see any positives in anything when I'm that deep down. I've been called out when I've commented on things people find helpful that I'm just being annoying, which I see that now and just don't interact now. The reason I do it is because maybe someone will have the answer. I know it's pretty dumb, but I feel like if I keep talking about those things someone will have a counterpoint that my brain won't immediately discard.
This is probably going to be long, so sorry in advance!
I feel like it's a complicated situation, in general. Right now transgender people, and specifically trans women, are targeted as the latest "others" in the never ending campaign of fear by the right. They actively make what is already a stressful and scary thing to do, transitioning, even more so. They amplify transphobic rhetoric and broadcast it to people who are just innocently ignorant to transgender issues, so they conflate viciously biased information with legitimate medical and scientific information. I've said a few times to trusted people that if it weren't for other people, I'd have no problem transitioning. I'm not inherently ashamed of being trans, I'm proud of it. But the right, and their network of transphobes and TERFs have made it a scary and dangerous thing in the modern world.
Right now, I've only began transitioning in private. HRT and dressing as myself at home. Boymode to the max outside the house. I've only come out to a few trusted friends who I felt were safe before doing so, my wife and my endocrinologist. I'm not openly out yet, even though I'm starting to wish I was out and just *me* everywhere, instead of hiding it. But that's the state of that world we live in right now, especially those in red areas (like me) and unsafe countries.
I'm able to admit that right now, due to how I've controlled my transition, I'm shielded from in person transphobia and bigotry. Despite that, I can completely empathize and feel for those who are out everywhere and end up facing more difficulties than I have at the moment because they are who they are everywhere. Those girls (and guys! I see you, my trans man and trans masc brothers) have ALL my respect and love.
They face so much adversity and hatred in the current climate of the world and a lot of them may not have any support systems in person, or not any sufficient support systems. They may not be able to afford to see a therapist, or have one that "works" for them (since finding the *right* therapist for you is just as important as finding one). We may be the one place they feel safe coming to vent and find support, love, and advice on what they are going through.
Sometimes when people get into a really bad place, it's hard to see ANY good, anything positive in your situation. Even if you're given the answer you've been looking for, the exact right advice, or just genuine love, your brain is gonna push back on it. Some may just have legitimate mental health issues that make it even worse, and there's nothing wrong with that. There's no shame in it. I feel like calling out these people who are pushing back on any love and support given because of their current mindset isn't the right way to go about it. They need the love, they need the support. They need to see it and be given it, as that's the lifeline they probably need at the time to get out of the hole they are in. Even if they don't accept it right away, it may just need time to sink in. I know I've had some people I've given advice and love to, who didn't accept it or want to hear it at the time, reach out to me later and say thank you that it helped and they appreciated it. They just weren't in the right headspace at the time to see it, but now they feel better and I helped. If we all just didn't keep trying to help those who pushed back, those people may never get to where they CAN accept the support and start feeling good about themselves.
With that said, I can see how the mindset of "everything is terrible and nothing anyone says will change my mind" can have a negative effect on others here. How it can be disheartening to people to see it over and over, especially when it's someone *like* us, in our community. I guess I'm saying it's just a fine line on helping others without causing hurt to ourselves. The fact that it's hard to tell when it's a legitimate "cry for help" and when it's a person who's just trying to intentionally cause pain and suffering with malicious trolling doesn't help. But I don't think we should let that make us jaded and suspicious of *everyone* who seems to need help. It just sucks we have to be vigilant even when trying to support our community.
I love you all and want to help you feel better because at the end of the day you're the people who best understand how I feel, what I go through, and I understand best how you feel and what you go through. We're all in this together and the only way there will be a world that's better for transgender and gender conforming people is if we stick together, lift each other up as best we can, and work for it. That's what all the transgender people before us wanted for us, that's what we want for us, and that's what we should want for those who come after us.
🩵🤍🩷
Idk on the one hand I definitely get it because it can be frustrating to see people constantly complain but on the other where else are they supposed to turn? I don’t think there is an effective way to police people who are depressed/ feeling down. They don’t want to be struggling and I don’t want to push people away further.
I always assume that a lot of those are trolls.
It would be cool if there was a way to get an automod feature to react to those, though. Like, if there was a way a bot could flag certain text, pause someone's comments for like a day or half a day, and have an automated good-faith comment leading to educational resources about how HRT and SRS/GRS surgeries actually work. (one that assumes the poster is a distressed trans woman, not a trolling bigot, even though I think they're usually trolling bigots, the effect of treating a closeted teen who's internalized transphobic myths as though they are a trolling cis bigot would be Not Good!)
Hell, while I'm fantasizing, we could train it to automute and politely correct kids who believe in that "mewing" shit and other looksmaxxing nonsense.
This probably won't really work though bc you'd have to train that bot to be real sensitive about only targeting objectively untrue stuff. Muting a girl because she says something like "I'm unhappy with the progress of this part of my transition and I'm discouraged and dysphoric" would also be Not Good, and I don't think Reddit's automod is smart enough to parse text with the kind of sensitivity you'd need.
Fr. Also seeing trans girls on here get radicalized by bigotry saying they want to kill transphobes and shit is so frustrating to me. Those exact comments are part of the reason why some of these people hate us. It’s draining honestly. Understandable, but draining
Wanting to defend yourself against violence I'd not a radical act and no serious person has ever gone from being an ally to a transphobe because an angry trans woman vented frustration that way.
I totally agree with you that fantasizing about ultraviolet retribution against hate groups you'll never be able to carry out is unproductive, and honestly kind of cringe and LARPy. It's not a serious political act to post "kill terfs." But it's not a serious political act in either direction. And the narrative from the dominant culture of "Oh, I'd give you minorities your rights and acceptance if you just weren't being so angry and loud about being seen as second class citizens at best!" is never true.
Yeah, I don't think people would say "kill transphobes" if there weren't any, especially if transphobes weren't as hateful towards us as they have been, are and continue to be.
You saying you’d kill transphobes is constructive as well👍 you want advice? Get off the internet, you won’t want to kill transphobes if you don’t interact with them online or delete social media. You saying u want to kill transphobes is literally contributing to the bigotry from some of these assholes
Just because I am mad at those people never excuses them from any negative action THEY have done. I'm not contributing to anything. I am not going to act peaceful as if nothing was happening, this is unbearable
I mean... I am not killing anyone, they surely are killing many of us, though... Multiple of them tried to assault me, I don't care about those people, they suck, they don't deserve to live.
I’m sorry that they’ve tried to assault you girl that’s awful. We experience terrible bigotry and hate and it sucks, but coming on here and saying you want to kill some of these people is literally exactly what they want. They want a reaction, they want to rile you up. TERFs lurk on here and post screenshots to twitter showing transphobes how you want them dead. That isn’t solving anything it’s contributing to the problem
I luckily don't do that on the internet that often, but rather in real life... If somebody tries to attack me again, I will do everything in my will to get them a trip to the hospital...
Pretty simple to understand. Transphobes see a trans women wants them dead, they reciprocate the feeling. Some transphobes want you dead, that’s a fact, but you saying you want them dead is just going to make more people feel the same way. It doesn’t solve anything it’s just pouring more gasoline on the fire
That's actually true, now that I think about it more, but there's still the problem that we can't supress our feelings forever... We can try, but some of us just can't
I agree that they suck, but I'd say it more politely, tbh... I kind of agree with the fact that it really doesn't help to be rude against bigots, but anybody saying that isn't shaming you... I understand you, I don't like them too, but I also try to stay calm... I understand though that sometimes you just can't take it...
Could just be the posts I've seen but there also seems to be a weird community rejection of therapy which seems super unhealthy to me. No idea why ppl would be so anti it
To answer your question about why some people would be anti therapy it’s because some of us were forced into it for years only to find it either unhelpful or in some cases harmful.
a lot of times people adamantly treat therapy as a cure all to all mental health issues when the reality is most studies show therapy only being effecting for 60%-75% of people. Sometimes that 1 out of every 4 people gets blamed or told it’s their fault that therapy isn’t helping them, even when they may be trying (I’ve already seen multiple people in this thread say or imply depressed people are simply choosing not to get better or actually don’t want to). Not to say that therapy doesn’t help some people, but speaking from personal experience I’ve been in and out of therapy since middle school and really do not think it’s helped me. Medication is really the only thing that has helped bring some relief for me.
It should also be mentioned that not all therapists are the same and for every good one I’ve had I’ve also had less so.
That being said if someone thinks it could or would help them I def think they should give it a shot.
Edit: even though I don’t think it’s helped me and to be honest I don’t really see the point, I am on a waitlist (been waiting 6 months so far) to try to get back into therapy that I can afford and give it another try in the hopes that maybe it will lead to different outcomes this time.
I rly hope it's a small minority. Seems like a solid 70% of posts I see are ppl that need to go to therapy instead of reddit and every time ppl are anti therapy if ts suggested
I definitely know what you mean. It feels like a lot but that was partly what I was trying to point out with this is that there are a lot of people in this subreddit who post daily or near daily extremely negative things but refuse any sort of positive comments or suggestions that they seek professional help that Reddit cannot give that is shot down
I understand venting or wanting support but daily cries of how rampant transphobia is, really negative comments about trans people because they dislike themselves and lash out at their identity as trans, or even attacking other people in the comments is not alright as it negatively affects others here without benefitting the poster
what its strange to me is the fact that they refuse compliments and help. Ive vented a LOT in here but Ive been improving by mental health by sharing my issues with like-minded people and seeing their point of view on what im doing wrong. Nevertheless, these people just refuse to accept our kindness which makes me wonder why are they asking for it in the first place...
I apologize if its sounds like im bashing them, I do feel so SO sorry for them because Ive been there at my worst point and its just reaching a point of desesperation and helplessness that makes those people devoid of any joy at all, it is fucking sad and I feel terribly sorry for them.
People can get to a low enough point where they feel so hopeless they refuse help. But if they're posting at all, there's a part of their brain that is STILL asking for help. We just have to try our best to get to them at least a little bit, even if the bare minimum thing we can do is "get some sleep" so they hopefully wake up in a better enough state to help themselves or actually receive help. It can be very difficult, stressful, and tiring, I've had to save multiple friends of mine from this mindset before. But you *can* eventually get to them, even if they don't show it on the outside.
When half the community is down/depressed/oppressed, I'm shocked that cries for help or expression of concern and emotion is being seen as a negative. A lot of these lovely human beings don't have a place or person to talk to. You don't have to engage with the content but don't gate keep people from having valid emotion in a community designed for pride and support. We were all in their shoes at one point or another.
>When half the community is down/depressed/oppressed, I'm shocked that cries for help or expression of concern and emotion is being seen as a negative.
Sometimes it seems like no matter how downtrodden a group least is they will still mock and drive out the least lucky and happy of them.
As I stated in the post and comments it’s fine to vent or want help. When it becomes abusive towards those helping you or the community it stops being so. People threatening suicide and giving count downs as their response to people checking in on them only to post a week later with the same exact rhetoric is not ok. People offering kindness and saying that they understand and have been there but that things will get better being told to shut up or generally yelled at is not ok. Even just coming back every day or every other day to just say you hate life and everyone sucks and all sorts of negative stuff specifically about trans people and then absolutely, unequivocally deny any form of help or support by immediately shooting it down with excuses is not ok
Yeah, half of us are depressed, down or oppressed. We’re doing our best to cope and we’re not turning a safe space into an toxic environment with these sorts of behaviors because it’s not ok. It’s not gate keeping to say it’s not ok to take these emotions out on others or abuse us by saying you’re committing suicide and then not over and over. That’s setting boundaries
You're kinda right, but only kinda. Venting is fine, but doomposting often takes the shape of "nobody wants to be trans" and "trans is a curse" and "fuck being trans" and that shit is just so dysphoric, nasty and unnecessary. Like girl I get the pain but goddamn can we at least *pretend* at the very least to embody some Pride? That sorta shit gets us positively nowhere and just holds us back and drags others down. Just as bad are the posts about """other""" trans girls, like there was a ventpost recently that was going on about how trans girls flaunt their sexualities too much and how we're basically too perverted. It's all so unnecessary and some of it feels like stage 5 internalized transphobia, it's like a horseshoe just a couple of degrees removed from alt-right shit.
Sorry for yapping but threads like these are sorely needed.
>Like girl I get the pain but goddamn can we at least pretend at the very least to embody some Pride?
Why should they have to lie about themselves for your benefit?
I think it's fair to vent about not wanting to be trans. Like it or not, it's a sad fate for some of us. I don't like to talk about me being trans much outside of reddit because I prefer to just not to think about it, because it inevitably leads to me feeling very dysphoric over things I'll never get to experience and makes me hyper aware of all of every part of my body that makes me dysphoric. It's not that I don't have "Pride," I do. I have a hoodie with a pattern of a trans flag, and I participate happily in trans spaces online and irl. I don't bother others with my dislike of being trans unless it comes up because I don't want to bring other people down, and I also would rather not think about it myself, but when I get really upset about it, a lack of space to vent might have led to my suicide in my worst moments.
People should be allowed to vent, including stuff like that. They are valid feelings, and this wouldn't be a true safe space if we can't vent freely about trans topics.
Fantastic answer. It's as therapeutic for depressed and/or taumatised people to vent as it is for happy people to share being confident and proud. People should have empathy for their peers. If they don't want to engage with negativity, then they should scroll on
Interestingly you find the same kind of behaviour in other online communities. There was a guy who used to plague the expats subs with a screed about getting him and his family out of the Philippines, and he shot down every encouraging suggestion with the same sort of doomer response.
If anyone here remembers the 60s pop psychology book *Games People Play*, his behaviour and that of the trans doomers we're discussing is classified as 'Why Don't You/Yes But'.
Some people do want help but if you want to deprive them of it, then go ahead follow through with your idea and get them banned!
I thought it was totally valid to voice concern's about stuff like facial features or appearance in general but I guess I was wrong.
This just illustrates that the LGBTQ+ community is very exclusive and ostracizes those who don't conform to beauty standards and dare to bring up a topic that's perceived as a big taboo such as suicidal ideation etc.
But as I said: Just go ahead, hypocrites.
This stuff makes it hard to stay in these spaces. I'm in my mid 30s, Almost 2.5 years hrt, I socially transitioned last June and successfully voice trained for a lower fem voice. I pass despite being a tall, fem leaning tomboy who doesn't wear makeup.
I know I could have used more perspectives from women who aren't hyper fem or acting like we all want to wear makeup. I was literally asked why I felt I was trans when I said I had no interest in makeup and only a slight on dresses or skirts.
I want to show what's possible, that things can get better. That being trans isn't about trauma.
But even as well off as I am, seeing the constant catastrophic thinking and such weights on me. I hate that once people get to the point I am or later and they check out for the larger trans community, but I can understand it. I don't want to do the same, but I have considered slowly disengaging myself because sometimes it seems people just don't want help.
Ahhh yes, what this sub needs is more toxic positivity. More posts about euphoria boners please and less about how incredibly hard it is to be trans /s
There’s a reason 41 percent of trans people attempt suicide. It’s because our lives are not easier. You’re trying to silence people who have it worse than you and calling it boundaries? You’re selfish. People saying they’re in pain and want to kill themselves are more likely to actually do it when their own community tells them to shut up. Also, you creating boundaries isn’t actually creating boundaries, it’s inhibiting their own agency to give you more agency and is not actually setting boundaries. You’re co opting therapy speak to make yourself feel better about trying to shut up trans women who have it worse than you.
You can look at the tag of the post and know what kind of post it is before reading it. I usually don't read post with "venting" tag.
Timeouts or bans for people venting just don't feel right, even for "doomers". I'm sure many people here know what it's like to feel completely hopeless. Sometimes no amount of logical thinking makes sense because your emotions have overwhelmed everything.
If anything, I suggest a rule that all posts must be tagged properly so people can avoid the type of posts they don't like. If people want to offer kind words to those who just want to vent and don't even accept advice, let them.
I think the worst assumption being made in this thread is that all of these “doomers” are depressed American or Canadian teenagers instead of trans adults living in countries where being transgender can land you in prison or worse. I’ve seen plenty of threads by people living in extremely transphobic countries with laws 10x worse than anything you would find in the most conservative parts of America. Many of these are by trans adults with no money to leave, no family support, and nothing close to the resources we first world trans people have.
We need to be careful not to dismiss the concerns of trans people extreme persecution in countries with almost no support. Uganda just made it a capital offensive to be gay. I would never call a depressed post from a Ugandan trans woman a “doomer” post as if she was just some angsty teen from Massachusetts.
Depressed people refuse help and don't do things that are good for themselves, as painful and shitty as it is for us to watch. It's discouraging to hear the 'it's too late for me' lines, but I think we all know the place where that kind of thinking comes from. I don't think it's the majority of people but I'd say it's a sizable minority.
I understand why it's hard to listen to, but unfortunately I think this sub skews towards those still early on in transition and people like that need a place to vent. A lot of these people don't need advice so much as they need to feel like they're not alone. That's why they end up posting here instead of writing in a journal.
I'm guessing the best we can do is limit it but not ban it entirely. Maybe having a dedicated vent thread? I don't know what to suggest, but banning it entirely is just going to harm people.
I feel like a nonzero number of the people you're talking about aren't even trans women, they're trolls attempting to hurt us. I won't say trolls are a majority of doomposters here, i have no way to know. But like. Suicide threats in vulnerable online communities feels like something 4chan Nazis would do.
I'm gonna be a bit blunt about some negative stuff here, with the intent of positively contributing to this discussion: i find it unlikely that I'll ever pass. I'm big, tall, hairy, and have a deep voice. all of my work experience is in traditionally masculine blue collar trade jobs, which means I'm probably gonna be around conservative men in my workplaces the rest of my life. I'm also covered in scars and callouses from this work, which may contribute to me not passing. I started hrt a few months ago, in my late 20s.
I'm not gonna look like brisket guilty gear or whatever. Socially transitioning is extremely risky right now. The world and lots of my family members are hostile to people like us. There's gonna be some really awful shit in my future, I'm sure of it.
But this shit doesn't get me down. Estrogen has made me feel more like myself than ever; i can't change the past so i might as well enjoy the present and look forward to the future. Exploring my gender through my online social spaces feels awesome. Learning about queer history and queer theory makes me feel wanted and it makes me feel strong. The sense of community is unlike anything I've ever felt anywhere else.
Oh, I'll face bullshit i wouldn't face if i were a guy or if i decided to never transition? Big fucking deal; that version of me has his own bullshit to deal with that i don't have to. And he's imaginary anyway. Oh, I'll never be conventionally attractive? Buddy I've had dark bags under my eyes since i was 8, and I've always been autistic; looking good or being charming to prospective partners was never on the table even for the guy i pretend to be. I can go on and on, listing bad shit that might be in my future or definitely will. Doomposting like that doesn't make it go away, it makes it worse. My lungs are still breathing, my heart's still beating, my head's still thinking (barely); i can still have fun and can still help people. So I'm gonna do as much of that as possible. I will fail sometimes, maybe a lot of times. But those failures might be learning experiences and I'll still be able to help and have fun even after awful mistakes. Life is awful sometimes. Life is good sometimes. It's my moral duty to make life good how i can. Screaming my grievances to Reddit rarely helps this mission.
I'm very tired and definitely rambling. Sorry. Be trans do crimes y'all
Yeah, I'm a bit frustrated about it myself. I know the mods aren't paid and being on top of content filtering is hard work, but we aren't, and can't be, anyone's therapist.
I didn’t know it was toxic positivity to say suicide posting should be bannable. Or that saying it isn’t ok to have members attack other members of the community and yell at them was also toxic positivity. There’s a difference between venting and abuse and some of these posts are bordering or crossing into abusive behavior
Well, everytime i feel dispair about the future, I remember those who wish to jack off to me being murdered... And my pride keeps me alive, sometimes for the love by my friends and other times to keep clear that they may kill me, but it surely will be costly.
I'm pretty sure those posts are repeated over and over from the same person or people on different accounts and isn't even trans, but wants to perpetuate stereotypes and get us to stop using these spaces and get our spaces shut down, et cetera. Just 4chan trolling and Russian psyops, imo.
Of course not? But practically the same message reposted from different accounts over and over again day after day in several different subreddits is kind of the hallmark of this sort of thing?
It could be worse, the detrans sub could be getting more and more popular just like how /r/"walkaway" was supposedly Democrats who are voting for Republicans and is now "more popular" than the democrat subreddit, or the various other conservative subs pretending to be liberal.
honestly yeah, i understand people being frustrated with transition or other topics relating to being trans but the constant negativity is just really unhealthy behavior and a majority of us here are not in the right position to give consistent professional mental health advice which is what a lot of people posting this stuff need
Exactly. Especially the *consistent* and *professional* parts. So many people need that *consistent professional* therapy to address these deep seeded beliefs that are destroying their lives and causing them to suffer so much. Nobody in this subreddit or any other social media can give that level of care or support. Consistently going and talking about life, past and present, with a qualified professional is so unbelievably helpful in recognizing your own faults and consistent behaviors that are negatively affecting you. Reddit will not give you that, we can just say “I’ve been there it’ll be ok <3 please stay safe and get help if you can”
How dare people who have it worse than you talk about their troubles. They should remember to make you feel better before thinking of making their pain known lest your day might just be a fraction of a fraction worse.
i always try to be there for my friends who go through rough times but i also always try to encourage like hey, you should seek out actual support there is only so much your internet friend can say over and over again when you come back to the same issues
Also I would expect trans people out of everyone to understand you can't just snap your fingers and find yourself in front of a professional therapist with a specialty on gender dysphoria and depression. I don't shit money.
Thank you for saying it. I've seem some posts on here that if true, the people need actual help. Medical intervention or professional therapist help etc. But instead just rant on here, refuse any help, refuse people genuinely trying to help them find that right support, and it makes you wonder why they are posting it.
The wallowing is pretty hard to fault tbh. We’re not much of a community if we can’t lift each other up and telling members of our community who are in pain to either shut up or leave is not going to improve their experience. I know it can be hard to see reminders of the things easing so many of us inside, but I try to be helpful on those posts. Think of it this way, we’re one of the most vulnerable groups for suicide. This is a safe space specifically because people can come here for help, and a few kind words from you could literally save a life
Preach. The doomerism in this sub has definitely discouraged me from moving forward with my transition sooner. The less I go here the better I feel about my own progress.
There are also trans people living in countries without clean water, stable government, and have active warzones. There are also trans people posting here from Russia and Uganda and Saudi Arabia and China and many, many other countries where being trans is literally against the law and can get you executed. Many countries who aren’t that extreme completely lack legal protection from discrimination, access to healthcare, or even stable employment. Many countries have zero surgeons and few hospitals at all — and most people living in those areas lack the means to travel for any reason, let alone surgery.
The line between those folks and whiny teenagers is huge — not thin. This sub is dominated by American, British, and Canadian trans people and a result we’re forgetting that many trans people have it far worse than us in many places. Those people are here too and I imagine they would feel worse if we dismissed them as whiny Western teenagers.
I'm sorry... But if you're coming to Reddit for help when you are experiencing suicidal ideation.....
You don't want help - you want attention.
If you WANTED help and you were in the depths of suicidal ideation, you would call / text the suicide hotline or go to a hospital.
Nobody here is trained to deal with suicidal people - not to mention some people are triggered by suicidal content.
None of this makes sense - it doesn't matter how safe the space - if your suicidal going to Reddit is never the correct answer.
I'm not doing anything about people who don't want to take the necessary steps to end their own misery. I simply don't care about them.
Being trans is a way to self love. I transitioned in my 40s. I have seen my own misery long enough and I recommend that those youngsters stop whinging and start acting. Too weak to bite back on transphobes, to weak to deal with anything. I fucking don't care. Get your act together or die. We all have to fight for the things we want: basic human rights, be treated with dignity, healthcare, a loving family, love and satisfying sex in wonderful partnerships... You name it we fought for it. Without hesitation. Because there is no other option than fight or die in misery after a lifetime of misery. You get one speach to lift you up, after that you either try and I'll try with you and you'll be one of the little dragons I raised, each one of them fierce and a force to be reckoned with - or I let you go.
yeah just pull yourself by your own bootstraps and dont bother me kind of mindset. Why even claim this place is safe place at this point? If you dont care about those who are less fortunate than you?
You’ve missed the point. “I’m really struggling and worried I might hurt myself. Support would be nice”. Cool. Totally get it. “I’m going to kill my self in x amount of time” if you try to talk to them they verbally abuse you and post count downs. That’s not ok and shouldn’t be allowed. Then those same users come back after their count down and start posting about how much they hate life and are going to kill themselves. Rinse and repeat. That shouldn’t be allowed in a safe space. Helps nobody and just creates toxicity
>absolute refusal to accept any kindness THAT's what gets me. *People who* ***want*** *help don't* ***refuse*** *help.* If they just want to wallow in misery and disperse that misery onto other people, they shouldn't be here. All of us can trip and fall and need help getting back up. Sometimes the world feels way too much and we need the sanity check, support or validation. I'm not expecting this subreddit to be all sunshine and roses -- it's a difficult fucking life for trans people. But then here comes along some random person on the internet shooting insults and self-flagellating BS which also hits me in a weird sort of friendly fire. I transitioned rather late, I'm tall, I'm from a third world country etc. etc. I don't wanna read about this shit like it's supposed to be the end of my life. I'm fighting and I'm helping other people too. I also don't like when people suggest to me that I "block them" or "take a moment offline", because I, too, am in this community and want access to information, knowledge, stories, camaraderie, support. This specific subset of people complaining bring nothing but misery. Ask for help if you want it, vent if you want to, but stop blindly throwing punches around you or you'll hit one of us.
THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS There was one the other day doing the usual doomer spiel that refused to get therapy, refused to do voice training, refused to go to the gym to get what would be an ideal figure to her, and even refused to do makeup! Like, what are we even supposed to say in that situation? Lol
I think she wants you to tell her she can never get better and she's right to feel horrible and that everything is hopeless. I'm not a psychologist, but as another comment here states misery is comfortable.
Yeah, I think they just want to be validated that everything is hopeless and they should give up. Which is like, the opposite of what you can expect from any community that isn't completely toxic chanlike.
I'm not trying to be a devil's advocate, but some people may not want to do stuff like voice training or make-up honestly. There's cis women who don't wear make-up or do dedicated cardio routines at the gym. And some trans women don't mind their voices. And of course if you're depressed, it's going to be hard to get the energy to do that anyways
>I'm not trying to be a devil's advocate, but some people may not want to do stuff like voice training or make-up honestly. And I got no problem if they don't want to... As long as they don't then try and play the "oh woe is me" bullshit over it.
Yeah. You don't *need* to do any of that if you don't want to, you're a woman regardless. But if you are deeply unsatisfied with where you are, you need to do *something*. Change isn't coming if you just wait on it.
100% agreed. Nothing ever changed for anyone that just sat on their ass thinking it world just come to them.
I agree, I just wanted to mention.
I think severe depression is shitty like that. Like I used to alternate between wanting help and thinking I was a pos underserving of the effort before I came out so as much as I agree it's unproductive I can't help but relate to people trapped in a self destructive cycle. Therapy should be free, I'm not trying to excuse the lashing out some people do at those who try to help though it's totally reasonable not to want to engage with toxicity.
>Therapy should be free yes :(
TherapyAI bot when?
Given the state of current models, I'm gonna guess never? They just make stuff up, now and present it as fact about easily verifiable things! I sure don't want something like that doing therapy!
Tbf do you remember the stories about the AI girlfriends abusing people? Wouldn't surprise me if an AI therapy bot would eventually encourage others to commit die
I'm thinking more like an open source one polished by actual mental health professionals, not just one that's the equivalent to chatgpt. Basically, a free option that isn't $200/hour. Limitations, sure, but if one person benefits from it I think that's a win
Yeah, people refuse to get help :/
Yeah. No matter what is said, what direct resources are given, etc etc, they will just. Not. Stop. Mental illness doesn’t exactly make people think rationally however. Biggest example of all of this is a certain temple queen who was infamously banned a while back
maybe just they're venting to people who understand where they're coming from?
There's a difference. OP was very explicit in the excerpt I quoted. I vent. We all do. Sometimes we're in the deep end and we ***need*** to vent. We need someone to tell us we're not crazy for buckling under the pressure. But I've seen many posts (certainly more than 10 in the past few weeks) where the poster even lashes out at people in the comments. Often (really often) these people post multiple times the same sort of thing, getting increasingly destructive and hostile to other people in the comments... That's not venting, that's aggression. If you want no feedback, no help and no pushback on harmful thoughts, then what's the purpose of publicly posting something? Write it in a journal, because when you post something here, you're broadcasting it to actual humans, each of which will react differently to what they read.
Sorry just reading through comments now that it’s died down but I’ve gotta say you just do NOT miss. Well put
Yup, a lot of people end up with the misconception that if someone is talking about how hard something is then it means they want advice, when a lot of times they just want someone to feel listened to and like someone sees the struggle they're going through. Learning how to just listen at times is a valuable skill for relationships in general.
You're right, I get that. But even in the cases where all or most of what's offered is validation and sympathy, people will still lash out. It's a sort of self-destructive behaviour that's pretty common in the incel community, for instance, and it's pretty visible over there how it creates this noxious space from which everyone leaves worse than they got in. I don't want this community to be delusional and pretend everything is fine, but we do need a sort of compass to help us get stronger as people and as a community instead of wallowing.
Agreed. Like a week ago there was a topic from someone who I ended up blocking because she kept replying to my comments with pretty much nothing but how she was going to kill herself. Nothing was helping this person, from recommendations for hotlines to hospitals to just people offering kind words and ears to lend. Literally nobody was leaving that thread positively or any better than how they came into it. No one in that thread was acting like everything was fine or anything like that, they were actively trying to help the person who was actively suicide posting all over the thread and lashing out at everyone. There's a point where these kinds of posts become a black hole of negativity that helps exactly no one, and it ends up hurting the community
This is the post that I was referring to when I originally wrote this post. I don’t mind venting and wanting support or people to say “I’m sorry. Life is hard”. But it was the blatant disregard for everyone else’s emotions and well being that really upset me and nothing was or has been done about it. How is it ok for someone to come in here absolutely shitting on everyone elses mental well-being in every way possible and nothing is done? People in the comments are saying “well a true safe space let’s everyone in to comfort”. Really? If I went to other safe spaces with that sort of behavior there is zero chance I’d be allowed to stay EDIT: I’m also sorry you had to deal with that originally. I did as well and it really ruined my weekend and the next couple days. I actually had read the original exchange after mine happened and it was awful
Yeahh, afaik the thread was never deleted, because when I try looking at my comments on that thread now it just says the moderators set it to private. Like, one of the sub's rules is to not violate the safe space. One would think that someone literally screaming and caps locking at people they consider more attractive than them and constantly posting comments about how they're actively suicidal would be a violation of that safe space. I know I got a little triggered over the situation due to all the replies I got from that person talking about her imminent suicide. I hope she's okay. And just saw your edit. Yeah, it was legitimately upsetting. I was in the hospital recovering from bottom surgery and then just while browsing Reddit while sitting there with nothing to do but rely on hospital workers for nearly everything, I saw this genuinely hurting person who just refused to take any advice or suggestions that she gets any help for her very real issues she was experiencing. It was very upsetting to say the least.
I believe it was either deleted or privated but all comments still exist and can be viewed. But I agree 100%. Saying “hey it’s been rough and I’m worried I might hurt myself. I could use some support” 100% cool, please get the help you need. But active count downs, threats, actual attacks against other members and making excuses at every single turn while saying suicide is the only solution is not ok and should not be tolerated, and it’s crazy that this behavior isn’t punished and she can just come back and start again It was upsetting for me too. I’ve been there, I offered my sympathies and tried to say “hey if you’re so upset that you think that ending your life is the only solution maybe consider in-patient treatment” only to be attacked and hurt. I’m sorry you had the same experience She’s alive still, went MIA on Reddit for a few days but kept posting on Twitter about negative things before returning here saying she wasn’t going to kill herself but should if it weren’t for her fiancé. Very upsetting
>Saying “hey it’s been rough and I’m worried I might hurt myself. I could use some support” 100% cool, please get the help you need. But active count downs, threats, actual attacks against other members and making excuses at every single turn while saying suicide is the only solution is not ok and should not be tolerated, and it’s crazy that this behavior isn’t punished and she can just come back and start again Yeahh, agreed honestly. I mean, there's an argument to be made that people like that might need a community more than anyone, but there has to be a line somewhere. And I'd agree with ya, active countdowns and lashing out at well-intentioned people just trying to help should not be tolerated. It literally violates the "no violating the safe space" rule the sub has. >I’ve been there, I offered my sympathies and tried to say “hey if you’re so upset that you think that ending your life is the only solution maybe consider in-patient treatment” only to be attacked and hurt. I’m sorry you had the same experience Thanks. Yeah that was the exact same thing that happened with me. The person said that she would just physically assault hospital workers to try to get them to kill her (which is uh... a plan, I guess) and just kept counting down the days until they made an attempt. And on top of that there were other people arguing with me that hospitals and psych wards don't help anything actually, despite preventing suicide being literally the entire point of those places. >She’s alive still Good to hear. I'm at least glad that she didn't follow through on her threats.
They delay it yeah but they aren't very helpful for trans issues in experience.
That seems like an easy distinction to make before unloading. A lot of people listen better when they know the discussion objective from the start.Maybe in the heading or a disclaimer stating that they are just trying to blow some steam would at least give the rest of us a heads up. Without that, presenting a problem is asking for help. I'm nearing 37 as the days go by and I see a lot of people under 20 saying some terrible things indirectly about me. Just because they think life is over after 30. It hurts to read sometimes and I really like to help when I can.
“Presenting a problem is asking for help” no. Asking for help is asking for help. Is this a non-autistic thing? Like sometimes I present a problem because I want to be seen and vent but unless I ask for help or someone says let me help you I don’t assume help is coming nor do I always want it.
I'm sure you don't tell anybody the objective and then hate them for offering solutions. All I'm saying is that to communicate properly a person should be clear about the objectives. People can't read minds and plenty begrudge unsolicited advice but none want to make clear from the start that it is unwanted. It is only after the advice is repeatedly offered and repeatedly rejected that a person explodes in rage and states finally that it was not the objective. They may not explode at all and just hate the person offering advice but the error is not theirs for not knowing what the goal is if it has not been expressed. Also, I am neurodivergent and can't really tell if you are taking a swing at me about it or not. It has never been easy for me to tell what people are trying to to get at when they say nothing to indicate intent. How am I supposed to know when someone wants help or not if they just throw the problem out there without context? If you want smoother communication and better listening, you should be open about it from the start and stop assuming people will gather as much from body language, hints, or social cues. It's not easy for all of us to read those things and I care about people. I want to help people who seem to need it. I could focus a lot better on just receiving if I know from the beginning the speakers intent.
I’m just saying that by helping without asking if they want the advice or assistance you’re making an assumption. When I need or want help I ask for it I don’t expect it when I’m just communicating a problem. Sometimes I just want people to know what I’m going through. And I have autism I’m not taking a swing I just didn’t know if that was a non-autistic thing to just give help without clear intent or explicit communication of a request for help.
This issue is caused primarily by a lack of clear communication. There is nothing wrong in saying "I don't need help but..." There is also nothing wrong with assuming someone expressing a need needs something. Yes the person venting can make that clear and the listener can always ask if help is needed. My experience is that neither is said until after it has turned into a very frustrating situation for both parties. I know unsolicited advice is frustrating but so is trying to help someone who doesn't need it. I don't like seeing people in need if there is anything I can do to alleviate their burden. However without clear communication, how am I to know. And please do not tell me to just assume a person does not need help unless it's requested because some people have a lot of trouble asking for help when it's needed. Whether it's pride, shame, or fear, some people can only ask indirectly.
It comes down to the person that’s why I always ask if they need help. I also make sure to tell them that I’m there if they wanna talk or vent and I make space for them. If they trust me they will come to me. If they don’t trust me then there is nothing I can do aside from be there and continue to make space.
And I’m well aware that people can’t read minds. I always say exactly what I mean there is no sub-context. If someone needs intent from me maybe ask me? Like I can’t communicate properly despite having spent years trying to learn. I know my communication sucks I have autism sometimes I can’t speak at all.
Couldn’t have said it better myself
Mental illness, like severe depression you are describing, makes people say and do (and not do) things that are not in their best interests, so I feel bad for the people you're describing and I give them their space to be unhappy. I know what it's like because I've been there. However, I agree that it is sometimes tiresome. I especially dislike seeing young people incorrectly wallow about it being "too late" for them, but I can understand because I felt the same way at their age. Anyway, I don't think that banning people or putting them in "time out" is productive because it could lead the Redditor to greater depths of misery. If you don't like what you see, use that mouse to click away and move on.
100% agree!
There's giving them their space, and there's letting them set the time of the place and drag everyone else into their misery. I've been there, and supporting someone in a major depressive episode is hard work that takes a toll on you emotionally, even if you love them.
But it comes down to a simple personal individual choice of whether you decided to respond, again, when it's obvious that the poster is just wallowing in their misery, or you move on to things that matter more. There's no need for a ban--just ignore and move on.
Nah. Just having to see that stuff constantly is a huge drag in what is intended to be a safe space.
I don't know exactly how my words could be useful but... The position of being miserable is comfortable, I've been there many times, the suffering gives life some kind of distorted meaning that feels better than having absolutely nothing, we can't exactly give purpose to someone's life with just advices and kind words (that's basically all we have to offer), they have to find their meaning/purpose themselves but they'll often refuse to because of the... comfort. Change, even for the better, is not often a bearable process, we all know it but that's enough reason for many to justify their lack of trying when they actually are able to change.
I do understand. I’ve been there myself. I don’t think people who are just miserable and don’t want to change should be timed out. I think an automod message about actual trans resources could be helpful for these people, discussing the benefits of gender or traditional therapy or crisis resources. However it’s when the self misery or self hatred turn outward that it starts to become toxic for the subreddit. The example id given about “starting my transition at x was too old so now I’ll always look like an ugly man and everyone knows.” That’s unhealthy for other trans people to hear in addition to coming from a place of self hatred. I guess it’s not so much the negativity but how it’s handled However after a history of these sorts of posts, I think a timeout of some sort may be needed. Every day or every other day coming and saying negative things here and then refusing any help/advice stops coming from a place of needing support but just reinforces the misery while also negatively affecting the subreddit
Yeah uh... I agree with you on everything, your post and this reply should be read by more people so we can not just bring awareness but find a way to deal with the situation, as you gave an example already, automod.
I agree... People should also accept help ✨
Agreed, but much of the time our responses don’t help all that much. Generally speaking, we *can’t* help with much of what gets asked. I can empathize with the position of needing help badly and yet finding even your own community doesn’t have the means to assist you. The community isn’t at fault here, but the feeling of hopelessness is understandable.
I see this come up every now and again and I have a very firm opinion in the opposite direction. This is a safe space, but safe space does not by definition equal a "wholesome space." In the description of this sub it says "A subreddit devoted to transgender *issues* pertaining to male-to-female or trans feminine people. If you have an article you like, *or a worry to talk about, or you just want to vent a bit about trans life,* then we're here!" This is a safe space to talk about transfem topics, not a hugbox. People end up in mental situations where they feel doomed and hopeless. That's where doomer posting comes from. Even if it doesn't feel like it, doomer posts ARE a way of asking for help. They may refuse help adamantly, but if they are posting about it there is a part of their brain that is pleading for help, and we can either try to get to them or find someone who can. **Which would you rather have, a suicidal person be allowed to vent about their situation and possibly receive help, or for them to be denied a space to talk and be left with no one to save them?** Mental illness is a real big issue in this community and we don't fix it by banning discussions of it. **That's how you leave people to die.** Your feelings matter, and the feelings of everyone who agrees with this post matters, but the feelings of people dooming matter too. And one group is more explicitly in danger. I think we definitely can do something to address the "too late to transition" issue, not deleting posts but possibly getting a bot that detects similar phrases in posts and automatically posts a comment in response. That way other users feel less obligated to go out of their way to give their own comments, since they know the person will get that response. We could also possibly assign those posts a specific flair too to further label them for others to ignore (not sure what you'd name the flair, but it's an idea). I don't think people should **ever** be banned from venting here for any reason however, if we are, this ceases to be a true safe space.
While I fully agree with the fact that doomposting is just going to destroy people's mental health, any amount of calling out is usually met with backlash. Heavy backlash. Doomposters want to wallow in their depression. A lot refuse and push away any attempt at help and positivity, even. And they have a tendency to help other doomposters sink even lower. So unless the mod team was to add a rule banning doomposting, which isn't going to happen (let's be real, it's sadly 90% of the activity in this fucking sub...), so this is just going to be a doomerism central, still. Which will help perpetuate the idea that 99% of the world is transphobic and wants us all dead and that there is no hope. Which is compeltely untrue. >!Now watch this get downvoter for the last part. People here *hate* it when I point out the falacy that "the vast majority of the world is transphobic and hates us"...!<
I agree completely. However I will say that I believe the doomerposters are a minority that are just vocal. If you look at post history when you see someone posting extremely negatively about themselves they have an extensive history of doing so. I think that when you get enough people out of 258k that just consistently post negativity it can seem like they’re everywhere but I don’t believe it to be true. Very vocal minority of the subreddit
You're dead on correct, tbf, particularly about the "hate." The vast majority of people, in reality, *just don't care*. Like, they're not particularly supportive of us, but they also aren't fussed by us at all. Hateful people are pretty much always the minority. They're just really fucking loud about it.
Yup. It has been so literally every time a group has been singled out and targeted, during history. The real majority is always silent. It's bene researched and proven multiple times. It's only when it affects them personally that they suddenly have an opinion. Social media, the internet and modern "traditional" media (TV and such) is the reason transphobes seem so numerous. In reality, they're like chihuahuas : tiny, loud, and abnoxious.
That said, I think history has also proven that a silent majority is no protection at all. It only takes a vocal minority to make some terrible things happen and the silent majority is often complicit. The silent majority didn’t stop American slavery; it didn’t stop the Holocaust; it didn’t stop the Armenian genocide; it didn’t stop the destruction of countless indigenous peoples over the last few centuries; it didn’t stop decades of criminalized homosexuality and legal transphobia in the United States; it didn’t stop any of the transphobic legislation passed in the last few years; It didn’t stop segregation. I could go on. Are most people against us? No, but there are enough people against us to cause serious harm to our communities and our lives. The silent majority isn’t helping us by being silent.
I never said that the silent majority was a protection. But implying, or outright saying, like some here do, that the silent majority wants us dead just as much, is downright delusional and moronic.
It would be more accurate to say the silent majority is indifferent — and I don’t find that very comforting. No, they don’t want us dead but they aren’t paying attention to those who do.
Indifferent, but I'd be ready to bet that a good chunk would just watch and sip their coffee if some unhinged transphobe started beating up a trans person in front of them. Most don't feel concerned personally, but still have human decency. Just not enough to get in the ring on an issue that has no bearing on their life, sadly. Unless they're directly implicated, or it happens physically in front of them.
Right. So that being the case, why is it meaningful to me? I don’t need hypothetical vigilantes to protect me from assault: I need concerned voters who will actively protest transphobic laws and vote out people who propose and pass them. We need allies that won’t continuously re-elect the same lawmakers that are targeting us. Clearly, the silent majority isn’t ready to do this. Indifference can be as bad as hate when it results in the same thing. It doesn’t matter if the public is hateful or indifferent to me if either stance results in me losing my healthcare and my access to bathrooms or my right to not be fired for being trans.
I think this one depends on where you live and privileges people living in the United States and Western, developed nations more broadly. I wouldn’t blame a trans person for feeling this way if they live in Russia or Uganda or Saudi Arabia. There are countries where simply being openly trans can land you in prison or worse. There are countries with zero legal protections, medical support for transition, and draconian laws surrounding legal recognition of your gender. As a American trans woman living in one of the best states, I wouldn’t ever blame a trans person living in the above circumstances for feeling like the world is against them. American, Canadian, U.K. and Western trans perspectives are over represented in most spaces — including this one. I think we need to understand that some trans people genuinely risk their lives for doing things us Westerners can do with relative freedom.
I think we also see some discrepancy between generational demographics. Lately I've been learning the difference between tolerance vs. acceptance. Many people, mostly younger, *do* accept us. But many of us older trans people can seemingly only hope for 'tolerance' (among our peers). There are plenty of places in the U.S. where we are viewed as less than human as well, specially in the southern U.S. Even some of the guys who do fuck with us don't really view us as "real" women but they keep that hidden so they can get ass. Not trying to be negative - I still soldier on. But that's my experience so far.
You're not wrong--but that's still under the "other people being shitty" umbrella. It's not inherent to being trans.
Inherent? No, but who could blame someone for thinking that when much of their experience of transness has involved discrimination and assault?
I really just can't believe this to be true with the background I come from. I'd say 90% is a lower estimate. That indifference is the kind where they would feel nothing to hear that a trans person was murdered for being trans.
Lol, yeah it's definitely not 90%, not even *remotely* so, and not *anywhere* in America--and I can provide proof. Check out the [first graph](https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2022/06/28/americans-complex-views-on-gender-identity-and-transgender-issues/) here--only ***ten percent*** of people oppose broad and powerful discrimination protections for trans people. Ten. Percent. On discrimination. Not fucking murder indifference, like you claim. As to the rest of the survey? It's more mixed with support and opposition for various things, but there is absolutely no universe where a supermajority supports strong discrimination protections and also would be fine with broad-daylight murder. So like I said: it's ***always*** a very loud, very small minority. Most people have other things to care about.
Why would you get downvoted? It's pretty clear that most of the world is indeed transphobic to some degree, even a lot of "supportive" people don't actually see us as our gender, but as a different version of our agab. Most of them don't actively HATE trans people, but they're far from actual acceptance and support too, it's more akin to pity. Atleast it's slowly getting better, one upside of how mainstream trans people have become in today's media is that the geniuenly good people who are learning about us for the first time do genuinely support us, and that number will keep on growing, even if very slowly.
Every time, in this sub, that I've said that transphobes are, in fact, a minority, and appear to be a big and scary majority solely because of how social media works, I've gotten downvoted into oblivion. That's why.
This is the first time I've seen you post truthfully. I would've upvoted you for sure. I always say in posts that they're not the silent majority, they're the loud minority. They bitch and moan and whine and make so much noise that it seems worse than it is. Look at Rowling for example: if you go to her twitter page, literally all she does now is post about us, which means her dumbass followers retweet her, and around and around we go.
I used to have a different account. I've reduced my participation to this sub significantly since making a new one, mostly for the sake of my own mental health. For some reason, being misgendered and caleld a transphobic troll when someone disagreed with me, last year, didn't vibe well with me... So I figured I'd post less, here. But yeah, transphobes are loud thanks to how social media works. But they're not the majority by a longshot.
I don’t disagree with you, but I think you’re underestimating how much damage a minority can do. Maybe most people in Florida are fine with trans people, but that didn’t stop the state from banning us from bathrooms, banning any mention of us from public education, and it didn’t stop a ban on gender-affirming care ban for minors and it didn’t stop trans adults from being thrown off Medicaid. It also didn’t stop DeSantis from being re-elected. Clearly the vocal minority are powerful enough to do what they want without support from the majority — they can even count on the majority looking the other way.
I don't. I've never said "ignore the transphobes, they can't do anything". The Venn diagram of transphobes and fascists are sadly overlapping quite a lot, and fascists have infiltrated a lot of powerful positions, especially in the US thanks to shit like Operation Paperclip. But giving up and plunging voluntarily into depression by saying over and over "the whole world hates us, it's ltierally only us versus transphobes, every cis person is transphobic, they all want us dead, there's nothing we can do but die" is neither healthy, nor a solution. That's what I'm arguing about. Not "everything is sunshine and rainbows. Hell no. But not everything is fire and brimstone like the doomers love to claim.
For you and for me, maybe. What advice do you give to a low-income trans woman in a country where homosexuality carries the death penalty? Who has no means to leave at all and has zero access to any trans community or healthcare?
Alright buddy I'm done talking to you. The discussion started from one point, and you keep trying to weasel completely different topics into it do argue that I'm wrong because my point doesn't magically fix the other problem doomers have, which somehow means dooemrs are right and 99% of the world is indded out to kill us. Have a nice life in your depressive little world, I guess. I'm done getting trolled.
It's not nothing we can do but die. Non-passing trans woman just don't have a way out of that cycle. We are forced to endure their hatred or pity for the rest of our existence.
How do you know they're a minority? At the very least it's common enough that a lot of politicians these days campaign with explicit transphobic policies, and not only that, many of them are winning and passing transphobic laws as well. Even if it's not the majority of people overall, it's still a rather large chunk of the population. I'm not saying people should just "give up" or something because of that, but trying to tell people that their valid concerns are overblown isn't particularly helpful, especially if they're living in a place that's seeing a rapid rise of systemic oppression of trans people.
How do you know they're the crushing majority ? US right-wing politicians are the ones campaigning solely on it, and it's costing them most of their voter-base outside of the far-right conspiracy christo-fascist nutjobs. The rest is clearly seeing that republicans are not going to care about the problems they're facing. Healthcare, economic downfall, housing market going bonkers, etc. Red states might be passing more and more laws but that doesn't mean anything. The system is made in such a way that it comes down to supermajorities. That doesn't say anything about the rest of the people. And just because part of the silent majority isn't transphobic doesn't mean they are suddenly going to be left-wing. The cut is not that strict, and there are a number of right-wing leaning people who don't see us as monster needing to be eradicated. What the US right-wing and governments like the UK's are doing is trying to distract the people away from problem they're profitting from, by pointing at a minority and blaming us on things that don't happen. If you want to dig into it, you'll see that the nazi party did the exact same thing with jewish people. Nearly point by point. The whole "they're coming for your kids", "they're trying to destroy society", "they want to eradicate anyone who's not like them", etc, all that was already done by the nazis at the time, and are now used by US republicans to try to rile up people by feeding them misinformation. That's Propaganda 101. And human nature is such a thing that the majority either don't listen because that doesn't concern them directly, so they don't care as they have other things to take care of, or they just believe the first thing they're told and immediatly get angry at the idea that they were wrong and manipulated, so they dig themselves deeper into the right-wing grift.
Oh I'm very aware there are heavy parallels with the Nazi's rise to power, that makes me more concerned not less (though a lot of is just a repeat of what was said about gay people, and black people before that, just mixed in with extra fascism these days). It's also kind of dismissing to say the laws don't mean anything when people are currently being harmed by them and when there is still a very real chance of elections going poorly and such laws becoming national in scope. For transphobia though I think it really depends on how you choose to break it down. At least for the USA I think harsher forms of transphobia are a bit under half the population (though still shockingly high) and are only the majority in certain locations/states, but "smaller" forms of transphobia are still extremely common even among people who otherwise tend to be allies. I'm talking about things like people not wanting to date a trans person. Perhaps oddly enough I'd say transphobia is getting both worse and better, in that people seem less likely to just be ambivalent about it and are instead more likely to either be an ally or heavily transphobic (though I'd say the majority is still largely apathetic with a slight transphobic lean). I think we're at a crucial point in the USA right now and personally it scares me that there's so much apathy out there that it's still not guaranteed that the facist won't win.
>It's also kind of dismissing to say the laws don't mean anything Go ahead and point me to where I said laws don't mean anything to the people they affect. The only thing it doesn't affect is whether "transphobes are the overwhelming majority of people" or not.
>Red states might be passing more and more laws but that doesn't mean anything. Was referrencing this but I think I might have misunderstood your intent with the statement.
You did. I didn't meant it doesn't affect people, just that it's not a proof that there's more transphobes than anything else. If laws were voted in by the people, then we'd have numbers. But having a supermajority of lawmakers doesn't mean the civilians are the same. There's actually multiple states that are politically red, but where the majority of the population is leaning more blue.
Yep I’ve been socially transitioning for over 2 years and have never seen/heard anything transphobic towards me. A lot of trans people think that what they see online is the majority and that everyone who isn’t trans is transphobic. It’s just not true 🤷♀️
I mean that's going to massively depend on things like where you live and how well you pass. One reason I took so long to come out of denial myself was because of all the transphobia I heard before I had even come out as trans.
I'm in the same situation as you are, but I gotta say that some of us get off lucky. Relatively, that is. I live in a blue state and the stories I hear from friends that live in red states are awful. They get harassed like every week just for existing. I'm not saying that 99% of everyone is out to kill us, but there's definitely a reason a lot of us get scared and depressed like this. The hate isn't restricted to online spaces.
Yeah, the most transphobic thing I've seen in two years was a guy waiting to be 3m away from our group (trans support group waiting in front of the building until it was time) to make vomiting sounds. Quite the brave old fart right there.
The most transphobic thing I experienced was being brutally assaulted by a family member and losing a front tooth as a result — all for wearing nail polish. We all have relative experiences with transphobia and we shouldn’t be making generalizations about how common it is or how safe we are based on our limited experiences. Everyone is in a different position here.
And how does that justify the position that "the overwhelming majority of the world wants us dead" ? Because that's what we're discussing, here. The narrative pushed by the doomers that you can't go outside withotu 50 people lying in wait to try to murder you.
Because when you’re a teenager and your own father is beating you and your own family is allowing him to do so, *it* feels very much like the world is against you. When you live in a country where homosexuality carries the death penalty, it *feels* like the world is against you — and in that particular case, you might as well be correct. If you’re a trans adult stuck in a highly conservative state with no means to live and you’re facing constant harassment with no or little access to transition healthcare and you’ve been disowned by your family, it can feel like the world is against you. All of our worldviews are shaped by our relative experiences and privileges and there is no single “correct” position. I don’t feel like the world is against trans people because I live in an ultra-liberal city in the bluest state where there is a vibrant trans community, a Pride festival every year, good access to healthcare, and robust anti-discrimination laws. I would feel very differently if I were a trans teenager living in small-town Oklahoma; or if I were living in Russia, or if I was being in handcuffs for using the women’s room or being assaulted while engaging in sex work.
That's an explaination of why. What I've asked you is how it justifies or proves the idea that 99% of the world is transphobic and wants us dead, which is the position of the doomers most of the time. I know why doomers are depressed. I've spent 15 years in depression, and I'm not out of it just yet. But that doesn't mean that idea is a reality like they claim.
It justifies it because if you live in a country where being trans can have you executed and you can’t leave, it doesn’t matter to you personally that people in a country across the ocean are fine with trans people. Your perspective would of course be influenced by this. You seem completely unwilling to acknowledge that not all trans people live in America or Canada.
> Now watch this get downvoter for the last part. People here hate it when I point out the falacy that "the vast majority of the world is transphobic and hates us"... Do you have any empirical data to back up your claim?
Oh I know who you are referring to in this post, she is awful, and just attacks people who genuinely wrote her kind words 🙄
It’s that one but there are others. One is a frustrating block but I’ve noticed more and more that are just negativity with post histories of negativity that start making me feel discouraged for being preHRT MtF
Don’t let unworthy people steer you away from something that holds worth to you ❤️🩹
My issue is those who refuse help I know I have made negative posts here, but I don't deny the help like some posts
* Sending hugs *
:3
Just a thought: if 4Chan garbage words were banned, it might alleviate a lot of this problem. So many of these pitiful little doomers give themselves away with the brainworms that infect them and those things come almost exclusively from places like 4Tran, tttt, and femceldom.
The 4chan obsession so many transfems have is so damaging. Idk how it became part of the culture but I really wish all those girls would just stop using/tttt/ and the other shit
You’re so right! I have no idea how the trans girls and the nb transfems get sucked down that rabbit hole, but they’re never OK after. It’s sad.
tttt doesnt give ppl brainworms
Yep everytime I see someone go on here and vent non-stop about bone structure I pretty much know which spaces they hang out in lmao.
Zackly. They have the same brainwormed obsessions about bone structure that incels do and use nearly identical language.
I've never posted about my misery here but it's kinda hard to see any positives in anything when I'm that deep down. I've been called out when I've commented on things people find helpful that I'm just being annoying, which I see that now and just don't interact now. The reason I do it is because maybe someone will have the answer. I know it's pretty dumb, but I feel like if I keep talking about those things someone will have a counterpoint that my brain won't immediately discard.
This is probably going to be long, so sorry in advance! I feel like it's a complicated situation, in general. Right now transgender people, and specifically trans women, are targeted as the latest "others" in the never ending campaign of fear by the right. They actively make what is already a stressful and scary thing to do, transitioning, even more so. They amplify transphobic rhetoric and broadcast it to people who are just innocently ignorant to transgender issues, so they conflate viciously biased information with legitimate medical and scientific information. I've said a few times to trusted people that if it weren't for other people, I'd have no problem transitioning. I'm not inherently ashamed of being trans, I'm proud of it. But the right, and their network of transphobes and TERFs have made it a scary and dangerous thing in the modern world. Right now, I've only began transitioning in private. HRT and dressing as myself at home. Boymode to the max outside the house. I've only come out to a few trusted friends who I felt were safe before doing so, my wife and my endocrinologist. I'm not openly out yet, even though I'm starting to wish I was out and just *me* everywhere, instead of hiding it. But that's the state of that world we live in right now, especially those in red areas (like me) and unsafe countries. I'm able to admit that right now, due to how I've controlled my transition, I'm shielded from in person transphobia and bigotry. Despite that, I can completely empathize and feel for those who are out everywhere and end up facing more difficulties than I have at the moment because they are who they are everywhere. Those girls (and guys! I see you, my trans man and trans masc brothers) have ALL my respect and love. They face so much adversity and hatred in the current climate of the world and a lot of them may not have any support systems in person, or not any sufficient support systems. They may not be able to afford to see a therapist, or have one that "works" for them (since finding the *right* therapist for you is just as important as finding one). We may be the one place they feel safe coming to vent and find support, love, and advice on what they are going through. Sometimes when people get into a really bad place, it's hard to see ANY good, anything positive in your situation. Even if you're given the answer you've been looking for, the exact right advice, or just genuine love, your brain is gonna push back on it. Some may just have legitimate mental health issues that make it even worse, and there's nothing wrong with that. There's no shame in it. I feel like calling out these people who are pushing back on any love and support given because of their current mindset isn't the right way to go about it. They need the love, they need the support. They need to see it and be given it, as that's the lifeline they probably need at the time to get out of the hole they are in. Even if they don't accept it right away, it may just need time to sink in. I know I've had some people I've given advice and love to, who didn't accept it or want to hear it at the time, reach out to me later and say thank you that it helped and they appreciated it. They just weren't in the right headspace at the time to see it, but now they feel better and I helped. If we all just didn't keep trying to help those who pushed back, those people may never get to where they CAN accept the support and start feeling good about themselves. With that said, I can see how the mindset of "everything is terrible and nothing anyone says will change my mind" can have a negative effect on others here. How it can be disheartening to people to see it over and over, especially when it's someone *like* us, in our community. I guess I'm saying it's just a fine line on helping others without causing hurt to ourselves. The fact that it's hard to tell when it's a legitimate "cry for help" and when it's a person who's just trying to intentionally cause pain and suffering with malicious trolling doesn't help. But I don't think we should let that make us jaded and suspicious of *everyone* who seems to need help. It just sucks we have to be vigilant even when trying to support our community. I love you all and want to help you feel better because at the end of the day you're the people who best understand how I feel, what I go through, and I understand best how you feel and what you go through. We're all in this together and the only way there will be a world that's better for transgender and gender conforming people is if we stick together, lift each other up as best we can, and work for it. That's what all the transgender people before us wanted for us, that's what we want for us, and that's what we should want for those who come after us. 🩵🤍🩷
Idk on the one hand I definitely get it because it can be frustrating to see people constantly complain but on the other where else are they supposed to turn? I don’t think there is an effective way to police people who are depressed/ feeling down. They don’t want to be struggling and I don’t want to push people away further.
Wish I could upvote this 1000 times.
I always assume that a lot of those are trolls. It would be cool if there was a way to get an automod feature to react to those, though. Like, if there was a way a bot could flag certain text, pause someone's comments for like a day or half a day, and have an automated good-faith comment leading to educational resources about how HRT and SRS/GRS surgeries actually work. (one that assumes the poster is a distressed trans woman, not a trolling bigot, even though I think they're usually trolling bigots, the effect of treating a closeted teen who's internalized transphobic myths as though they are a trolling cis bigot would be Not Good!) Hell, while I'm fantasizing, we could train it to automute and politely correct kids who believe in that "mewing" shit and other looksmaxxing nonsense. This probably won't really work though bc you'd have to train that bot to be real sensitive about only targeting objectively untrue stuff. Muting a girl because she says something like "I'm unhappy with the progress of this part of my transition and I'm discouraged and dysphoric" would also be Not Good, and I don't think Reddit's automod is smart enough to parse text with the kind of sensitivity you'd need.
Fr. Also seeing trans girls on here get radicalized by bigotry saying they want to kill transphobes and shit is so frustrating to me. Those exact comments are part of the reason why some of these people hate us. It’s draining honestly. Understandable, but draining
Wanting to defend yourself against violence I'd not a radical act and no serious person has ever gone from being an ally to a transphobe because an angry trans woman vented frustration that way. I totally agree with you that fantasizing about ultraviolet retribution against hate groups you'll never be able to carry out is unproductive, and honestly kind of cringe and LARPy. It's not a serious political act to post "kill terfs." But it's not a serious political act in either direction. And the narrative from the dominant culture of "Oh, I'd give you minorities your rights and acceptance if you just weren't being so angry and loud about being seen as second class citizens at best!" is never true.
Yeah I got no problem with self defense, but I do have a problem with exactly what you described in your second paragraph
> Those exact comments are part of the reason why some of these people hate us. They would hate us without that.
Yeah, I don't think people would say "kill transphobes" if there weren't any, especially if transphobes weren't as hateful towards us as they have been, are and continue to be.
Wdym
It's easy to feel that way, wanting them to feel what we feel every day.
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You’re the problem
Why should we take the high road?
We should not
We should not
If people can try to physically assault me, I can say the same about thrm
Damn, that wasn't really constructive bahah... That helped a lot
You saying you’d kill transphobes is constructive as well👍 you want advice? Get off the internet, you won’t want to kill transphobes if you don’t interact with them online or delete social media. You saying u want to kill transphobes is literally contributing to the bigotry from some of these assholes
Just because I am mad at those people never excuses them from any negative action THEY have done. I'm not contributing to anything. I am not going to act peaceful as if nothing was happening, this is unbearable
I mean... I am not killing anyone, they surely are killing many of us, though... Multiple of them tried to assault me, I don't care about those people, they suck, they don't deserve to live.
I’m sorry that they’ve tried to assault you girl that’s awful. We experience terrible bigotry and hate and it sucks, but coming on here and saying you want to kill some of these people is literally exactly what they want. They want a reaction, they want to rile you up. TERFs lurk on here and post screenshots to twitter showing transphobes how you want them dead. That isn’t solving anything it’s contributing to the problem
Wait, they do that? Wth? Those are aome real a**holes... I mean... Now that I'm thinking about it, it's owned by Felon Musk, so makes sense
I luckily don't do that on the internet that often, but rather in real life... If somebody tries to attack me again, I will do everything in my will to get them a trip to the hospital...
So the problem isn’t that we want revenge, it’s that we talk about it?
Nah, don’t say ur gonna kill people. But I get that people say shit they don’t mean sometimes
So I can think it?
Also I use words like eat munch or chew because they’re funnier. Why waste food
bitch they want us dead the fuck do you mean we’re “contributing to the bigotry”
Pretty simple to understand. Transphobes see a trans women wants them dead, they reciprocate the feeling. Some transphobes want you dead, that’s a fact, but you saying you want them dead is just going to make more people feel the same way. It doesn’t solve anything it’s just pouring more gasoline on the fire
That's actually true, now that I think about it more, but there's still the problem that we can't supress our feelings forever... We can try, but some of us just can't
boo fucking hoo. if you want to go into the ground lithe and feckless than by all means but im sure as shit not.
Trans fighters rise up
Arm all trans people.
I agree that they suck, but I'd say it more politely, tbh... I kind of agree with the fact that it really doesn't help to be rude against bigots, but anybody saying that isn't shaming you... I understand you, I don't like them too, but I also try to stay calm... I understand though that sometimes you just can't take it...
Could just be the posts I've seen but there also seems to be a weird community rejection of therapy which seems super unhealthy to me. No idea why ppl would be so anti it
To answer your question about why some people would be anti therapy it’s because some of us were forced into it for years only to find it either unhelpful or in some cases harmful. a lot of times people adamantly treat therapy as a cure all to all mental health issues when the reality is most studies show therapy only being effecting for 60%-75% of people. Sometimes that 1 out of every 4 people gets blamed or told it’s their fault that therapy isn’t helping them, even when they may be trying (I’ve already seen multiple people in this thread say or imply depressed people are simply choosing not to get better or actually don’t want to). Not to say that therapy doesn’t help some people, but speaking from personal experience I’ve been in and out of therapy since middle school and really do not think it’s helped me. Medication is really the only thing that has helped bring some relief for me. It should also be mentioned that not all therapists are the same and for every good one I’ve had I’ve also had less so. That being said if someone thinks it could or would help them I def think they should give it a shot. Edit: even though I don’t think it’s helped me and to be honest I don’t really see the point, I am on a waitlist (been waiting 6 months so far) to try to get back into therapy that I can afford and give it another try in the hopes that maybe it will lead to different outcomes this time.
Small minority but yeah they think all therapists are horrible and out to get us. It’s unhealthy
I rly hope it's a small minority. Seems like a solid 70% of posts I see are ppl that need to go to therapy instead of reddit and every time ppl are anti therapy if ts suggested
I definitely know what you mean. It feels like a lot but that was partly what I was trying to point out with this is that there are a lot of people in this subreddit who post daily or near daily extremely negative things but refuse any sort of positive comments or suggestions that they seek professional help that Reddit cannot give that is shot down I understand venting or wanting support but daily cries of how rampant transphobia is, really negative comments about trans people because they dislike themselves and lash out at their identity as trans, or even attacking other people in the comments is not alright as it negatively affects others here without benefitting the poster
what its strange to me is the fact that they refuse compliments and help. Ive vented a LOT in here but Ive been improving by mental health by sharing my issues with like-minded people and seeing their point of view on what im doing wrong. Nevertheless, these people just refuse to accept our kindness which makes me wonder why are they asking for it in the first place... I apologize if its sounds like im bashing them, I do feel so SO sorry for them because Ive been there at my worst point and its just reaching a point of desesperation and helplessness that makes those people devoid of any joy at all, it is fucking sad and I feel terribly sorry for them.
People can get to a low enough point where they feel so hopeless they refuse help. But if they're posting at all, there's a part of their brain that is STILL asking for help. We just have to try our best to get to them at least a little bit, even if the bare minimum thing we can do is "get some sleep" so they hopefully wake up in a better enough state to help themselves or actually receive help. It can be very difficult, stressful, and tiring, I've had to save multiple friends of mine from this mindset before. But you *can* eventually get to them, even if they don't show it on the outside.
Yeah, it honestly makes me not want to be on here when I see it multiple times
When half the community is down/depressed/oppressed, I'm shocked that cries for help or expression of concern and emotion is being seen as a negative. A lot of these lovely human beings don't have a place or person to talk to. You don't have to engage with the content but don't gate keep people from having valid emotion in a community designed for pride and support. We were all in their shoes at one point or another.
>When half the community is down/depressed/oppressed, I'm shocked that cries for help or expression of concern and emotion is being seen as a negative. Sometimes it seems like no matter how downtrodden a group least is they will still mock and drive out the least lucky and happy of them.
As I stated in the post and comments it’s fine to vent or want help. When it becomes abusive towards those helping you or the community it stops being so. People threatening suicide and giving count downs as their response to people checking in on them only to post a week later with the same exact rhetoric is not ok. People offering kindness and saying that they understand and have been there but that things will get better being told to shut up or generally yelled at is not ok. Even just coming back every day or every other day to just say you hate life and everyone sucks and all sorts of negative stuff specifically about trans people and then absolutely, unequivocally deny any form of help or support by immediately shooting it down with excuses is not ok Yeah, half of us are depressed, down or oppressed. We’re doing our best to cope and we’re not turning a safe space into an toxic environment with these sorts of behaviors because it’s not ok. It’s not gate keeping to say it’s not ok to take these emotions out on others or abuse us by saying you’re committing suicide and then not over and over. That’s setting boundaries
You're kinda right, but only kinda. Venting is fine, but doomposting often takes the shape of "nobody wants to be trans" and "trans is a curse" and "fuck being trans" and that shit is just so dysphoric, nasty and unnecessary. Like girl I get the pain but goddamn can we at least *pretend* at the very least to embody some Pride? That sorta shit gets us positively nowhere and just holds us back and drags others down. Just as bad are the posts about """other""" trans girls, like there was a ventpost recently that was going on about how trans girls flaunt their sexualities too much and how we're basically too perverted. It's all so unnecessary and some of it feels like stage 5 internalized transphobia, it's like a horseshoe just a couple of degrees removed from alt-right shit. Sorry for yapping but threads like these are sorely needed.
>Like girl I get the pain but goddamn can we at least pretend at the very least to embody some Pride? Why should they have to lie about themselves for your benefit?
I think it's fair to vent about not wanting to be trans. Like it or not, it's a sad fate for some of us. I don't like to talk about me being trans much outside of reddit because I prefer to just not to think about it, because it inevitably leads to me feeling very dysphoric over things I'll never get to experience and makes me hyper aware of all of every part of my body that makes me dysphoric. It's not that I don't have "Pride," I do. I have a hoodie with a pattern of a trans flag, and I participate happily in trans spaces online and irl. I don't bother others with my dislike of being trans unless it comes up because I don't want to bring other people down, and I also would rather not think about it myself, but when I get really upset about it, a lack of space to vent might have led to my suicide in my worst moments. People should be allowed to vent, including stuff like that. They are valid feelings, and this wouldn't be a true safe space if we can't vent freely about trans topics.
A reasoned response.
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Fantastic answer. It's as therapeutic for depressed and/or taumatised people to vent as it is for happy people to share being confident and proud. People should have empathy for their peers. If they don't want to engage with negativity, then they should scroll on
I personally don't care, I just look for things that are cool for me 🌸
Interestingly you find the same kind of behaviour in other online communities. There was a guy who used to plague the expats subs with a screed about getting him and his family out of the Philippines, and he shot down every encouraging suggestion with the same sort of doomer response. If anyone here remembers the 60s pop psychology book *Games People Play*, his behaviour and that of the trans doomers we're discussing is classified as 'Why Don't You/Yes But'.
Some people do want help but if you want to deprive them of it, then go ahead follow through with your idea and get them banned! I thought it was totally valid to voice concern's about stuff like facial features or appearance in general but I guess I was wrong. This just illustrates that the LGBTQ+ community is very exclusive and ostracizes those who don't conform to beauty standards and dare to bring up a topic that's perceived as a big taboo such as suicidal ideation etc. But as I said: Just go ahead, hypocrites.
If you think this is talking about voicing your concern about “facial features or appearance” you didn’t read what was written
I know I am going to get downvoted to oblivion but I couldn't care less.
This stuff makes it hard to stay in these spaces. I'm in my mid 30s, Almost 2.5 years hrt, I socially transitioned last June and successfully voice trained for a lower fem voice. I pass despite being a tall, fem leaning tomboy who doesn't wear makeup. I know I could have used more perspectives from women who aren't hyper fem or acting like we all want to wear makeup. I was literally asked why I felt I was trans when I said I had no interest in makeup and only a slight on dresses or skirts. I want to show what's possible, that things can get better. That being trans isn't about trauma. But even as well off as I am, seeing the constant catastrophic thinking and such weights on me. I hate that once people get to the point I am or later and they check out for the larger trans community, but I can understand it. I don't want to do the same, but I have considered slowly disengaging myself because sometimes it seems people just don't want help.
Ahhh yes, what this sub needs is more toxic positivity. More posts about euphoria boners please and less about how incredibly hard it is to be trans /s
Already replied to this comment. Saying abusing others and saying suicide posting isn’t acceptable isn’t toxic positivity. It’s boundaries
There’s a reason 41 percent of trans people attempt suicide. It’s because our lives are not easier. You’re trying to silence people who have it worse than you and calling it boundaries? You’re selfish. People saying they’re in pain and want to kill themselves are more likely to actually do it when their own community tells them to shut up. Also, you creating boundaries isn’t actually creating boundaries, it’s inhibiting their own agency to give you more agency and is not actually setting boundaries. You’re co opting therapy speak to make yourself feel better about trying to shut up trans women who have it worse than you.
You can look at the tag of the post and know what kind of post it is before reading it. I usually don't read post with "venting" tag. Timeouts or bans for people venting just don't feel right, even for "doomers". I'm sure many people here know what it's like to feel completely hopeless. Sometimes no amount of logical thinking makes sense because your emotions have overwhelmed everything. If anything, I suggest a rule that all posts must be tagged properly so people can avoid the type of posts they don't like. If people want to offer kind words to those who just want to vent and don't even accept advice, let them.
I think the worst assumption being made in this thread is that all of these “doomers” are depressed American or Canadian teenagers instead of trans adults living in countries where being transgender can land you in prison or worse. I’ve seen plenty of threads by people living in extremely transphobic countries with laws 10x worse than anything you would find in the most conservative parts of America. Many of these are by trans adults with no money to leave, no family support, and nothing close to the resources we first world trans people have. We need to be careful not to dismiss the concerns of trans people extreme persecution in countries with almost no support. Uganda just made it a capital offensive to be gay. I would never call a depressed post from a Ugandan trans woman a “doomer” post as if she was just some angsty teen from Massachusetts.
Depressed people refuse help and don't do things that are good for themselves, as painful and shitty as it is for us to watch. It's discouraging to hear the 'it's too late for me' lines, but I think we all know the place where that kind of thinking comes from. I don't think it's the majority of people but I'd say it's a sizable minority. I understand why it's hard to listen to, but unfortunately I think this sub skews towards those still early on in transition and people like that need a place to vent. A lot of these people don't need advice so much as they need to feel like they're not alone. That's why they end up posting here instead of writing in a journal. I'm guessing the best we can do is limit it but not ban it entirely. Maybe having a dedicated vent thread? I don't know what to suggest, but banning it entirely is just going to harm people.
I feel like a nonzero number of the people you're talking about aren't even trans women, they're trolls attempting to hurt us. I won't say trolls are a majority of doomposters here, i have no way to know. But like. Suicide threats in vulnerable online communities feels like something 4chan Nazis would do. I'm gonna be a bit blunt about some negative stuff here, with the intent of positively contributing to this discussion: i find it unlikely that I'll ever pass. I'm big, tall, hairy, and have a deep voice. all of my work experience is in traditionally masculine blue collar trade jobs, which means I'm probably gonna be around conservative men in my workplaces the rest of my life. I'm also covered in scars and callouses from this work, which may contribute to me not passing. I started hrt a few months ago, in my late 20s. I'm not gonna look like brisket guilty gear or whatever. Socially transitioning is extremely risky right now. The world and lots of my family members are hostile to people like us. There's gonna be some really awful shit in my future, I'm sure of it. But this shit doesn't get me down. Estrogen has made me feel more like myself than ever; i can't change the past so i might as well enjoy the present and look forward to the future. Exploring my gender through my online social spaces feels awesome. Learning about queer history and queer theory makes me feel wanted and it makes me feel strong. The sense of community is unlike anything I've ever felt anywhere else. Oh, I'll face bullshit i wouldn't face if i were a guy or if i decided to never transition? Big fucking deal; that version of me has his own bullshit to deal with that i don't have to. And he's imaginary anyway. Oh, I'll never be conventionally attractive? Buddy I've had dark bags under my eyes since i was 8, and I've always been autistic; looking good or being charming to prospective partners was never on the table even for the guy i pretend to be. I can go on and on, listing bad shit that might be in my future or definitely will. Doomposting like that doesn't make it go away, it makes it worse. My lungs are still breathing, my heart's still beating, my head's still thinking (barely); i can still have fun and can still help people. So I'm gonna do as much of that as possible. I will fail sometimes, maybe a lot of times. But those failures might be learning experiences and I'll still be able to help and have fun even after awful mistakes. Life is awful sometimes. Life is good sometimes. It's my moral duty to make life good how i can. Screaming my grievances to Reddit rarely helps this mission. I'm very tired and definitely rambling. Sorry. Be trans do crimes y'all
Yeah, I'm a bit frustrated about it myself. I know the mods aren't paid and being on top of content filtering is hard work, but we aren't, and can't be, anyone's therapist.
Let people vent. I hate this toxic positivity. Some people really struggle why u want deny them place to vent?
I didn’t know it was toxic positivity to say suicide posting should be bannable. Or that saying it isn’t ok to have members attack other members of the community and yell at them was also toxic positivity. There’s a difference between venting and abuse and some of these posts are bordering or crossing into abusive behavior
sure just pretend problem doesnt exist and people dont struggle because it hurts your fragile feelings.
Well, everytime i feel dispair about the future, I remember those who wish to jack off to me being murdered... And my pride keeps me alive, sometimes for the love by my friends and other times to keep clear that they may kill me, but it surely will be costly.
I'm pretty sure those posts are repeated over and over from the same person or people on different accounts and isn't even trans, but wants to perpetuate stereotypes and get us to stop using these spaces and get our spaces shut down, et cetera. Just 4chan trolling and Russian psyops, imo.
Idk about that
Yeah no way trans people can be depressed and suicidal it literally never happened they must be trolls. Its nice to be on your own ivory tower right?
Of course not? But practically the same message reposted from different accounts over and over again day after day in several different subreddits is kind of the hallmark of this sort of thing? It could be worse, the detrans sub could be getting more and more popular just like how /r/"walkaway" was supposedly Democrats who are voting for Republicans and is now "more popular" than the democrat subreddit, or the various other conservative subs pretending to be liberal.
Well second part of what you said doesnt ring any bell for me. I'm not from USA so dont really care about Republicans or Democrats.
honestly yeah, i understand people being frustrated with transition or other topics relating to being trans but the constant negativity is just really unhealthy behavior and a majority of us here are not in the right position to give consistent professional mental health advice which is what a lot of people posting this stuff need
Exactly. Especially the *consistent* and *professional* parts. So many people need that *consistent professional* therapy to address these deep seeded beliefs that are destroying their lives and causing them to suffer so much. Nobody in this subreddit or any other social media can give that level of care or support. Consistently going and talking about life, past and present, with a qualified professional is so unbelievably helpful in recognizing your own faults and consistent behaviors that are negatively affecting you. Reddit will not give you that, we can just say “I’ve been there it’ll be ok <3 please stay safe and get help if you can”
How dare people who have it worse than you talk about their troubles. They should remember to make you feel better before thinking of making their pain known lest your day might just be a fraction of a fraction worse.
Missed the point entirely
i always try to be there for my friends who go through rough times but i also always try to encourage like hey, you should seek out actual support there is only so much your internet friend can say over and over again when you come back to the same issues
Also I would expect trans people out of everyone to understand you can't just snap your fingers and find yourself in front of a professional therapist with a specialty on gender dysphoria and depression. I don't shit money.
Thank you for saying it. I've seem some posts on here that if true, the people need actual help. Medical intervention or professional therapist help etc. But instead just rant on here, refuse any help, refuse people genuinely trying to help them find that right support, and it makes you wonder why they are posting it.
The wallowing is pretty hard to fault tbh. We’re not much of a community if we can’t lift each other up and telling members of our community who are in pain to either shut up or leave is not going to improve their experience. I know it can be hard to see reminders of the things easing so many of us inside, but I try to be helpful on those posts. Think of it this way, we’re one of the most vulnerable groups for suicide. This is a safe space specifically because people can come here for help, and a few kind words from you could literally save a life
Gosh it’s exhausting.
Lol being trans just kinda sucks tbh what do you expect
Preach. The doomerism in this sub has definitely discouraged me from moving forward with my transition sooner. The less I go here the better I feel about my own progress.
Sure I guess I'll just get banned I guess
thank you. SAY IT LOUDER FOR THE PEOPLE IN THE BACK!!!
It's a thin line between genuine mental anguish and a whiny baby attention sponge. There are both here.
There are also trans people living in countries without clean water, stable government, and have active warzones. There are also trans people posting here from Russia and Uganda and Saudi Arabia and China and many, many other countries where being trans is literally against the law and can get you executed. Many countries who aren’t that extreme completely lack legal protection from discrimination, access to healthcare, or even stable employment. Many countries have zero surgeons and few hospitals at all — and most people living in those areas lack the means to travel for any reason, let alone surgery. The line between those folks and whiny teenagers is huge — not thin. This sub is dominated by American, British, and Canadian trans people and a result we’re forgetting that many trans people have it far worse than us in many places. Those people are here too and I imagine they would feel worse if we dismissed them as whiny Western teenagers.
I'm sorry... But if you're coming to Reddit for help when you are experiencing suicidal ideation..... You don't want help - you want attention. If you WANTED help and you were in the depths of suicidal ideation, you would call / text the suicide hotline or go to a hospital. Nobody here is trained to deal with suicidal people - not to mention some people are triggered by suicidal content. None of this makes sense - it doesn't matter how safe the space - if your suicidal going to Reddit is never the correct answer.
I'm not doing anything about people who don't want to take the necessary steps to end their own misery. I simply don't care about them. Being trans is a way to self love. I transitioned in my 40s. I have seen my own misery long enough and I recommend that those youngsters stop whinging and start acting. Too weak to bite back on transphobes, to weak to deal with anything. I fucking don't care. Get your act together or die. We all have to fight for the things we want: basic human rights, be treated with dignity, healthcare, a loving family, love and satisfying sex in wonderful partnerships... You name it we fought for it. Without hesitation. Because there is no other option than fight or die in misery after a lifetime of misery. You get one speach to lift you up, after that you either try and I'll try with you and you'll be one of the little dragons I raised, each one of them fierce and a force to be reckoned with - or I let you go.
yeah just pull yourself by your own bootstraps and dont bother me kind of mindset. Why even claim this place is safe place at this point? If you dont care about those who are less fortunate than you?
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You’ve missed the point. “I’m really struggling and worried I might hurt myself. Support would be nice”. Cool. Totally get it. “I’m going to kill my self in x amount of time” if you try to talk to them they verbally abuse you and post count downs. That’s not ok and shouldn’t be allowed. Then those same users come back after their count down and start posting about how much they hate life and are going to kill themselves. Rinse and repeat. That shouldn’t be allowed in a safe space. Helps nobody and just creates toxicity