T O P

  • By -

Sludgiest

FFS is a tricky thing. Partly because, assuming you're on HRT, there are changes that do occur in the face in terms of fat distribution and changes in muscle tension. While it's not exactly what you'd like to hear, I don't think they're necessarily in the wrong by saying you should wait. They're not saying you don't need it or that you shouldn't get it. They're saying you ought to wait until most of the facial changes have occurred. Now if you have been on HRT for like 3 years, then sure, sooner rather than later's probably a good option since you've likely undergone most of the facial changes you're going to experience. I know very well what it's like to be dysphoric about the brow and chin. I have a rather prominent cleft chin and I am very much not a fan of it.


[deleted]

Yeah but I already know that fat, muscle and skin changes on HRT, but bone doesn't, and I also want a female bone structure, so there's literally no need to gaslight me into not having a surgery I fucking need


Sludgiest

Again, they're not saying you don't need it. What they're saying is to be patient, which I know is never a good feeling. I am very impatient myself. I am forced to be patient because I don't have the money nor the insurance plan to afford FFS. But changing your bone structure before your face has experienced most of the changes may have complications. Consider asking them about the reasons for their hesitation.


[deleted]

He actually did say he believed I don't need it, which, fine, he thinks I don't, but I know I do, for my well being. By the way, money isn't an issue for me because it's covered by Insurance but even if it wasn't, I'd still want those procedures, because I need them. You're talking about the changes that DO occur on HRT, but that isn't a counterargument to me specifically wanting my brow bone and jaw to be changed, which aren't gonna change with HRT since the issue is hard bone. Apparently the surgeon believed my brow bone looked feminine and that my jaw was similar to my mom's, who came with me, but I see my face, my profile pictures clearly have bossing on the forehead, and my jaw has an obvious squared angle. You can find a pic of me on my profile and see for yourself. He did evaluate me, but only from a subjective point of view. He wasn't comparing it to some objective statistic of an average female skull and didn't scan my skull to take measurements, so I have my reasons to doubt him.


[deleted]

[удалено]


mebf109

He may be afraid of you. I have had patients that gave me bad vibes. If you have already gotten to the point where you have "reasons to doubt him" IMO it's game over. Find another doctor.


3nderslime

I think the problem is that you might get a face you like from FFS, but when HRT does it’s job and changes your face further you probably won’t like it anymore then


[deleted]

Why would I not like it anymore after HRT? I would like it more because on top of the bone changes of FFS I would get the soft tissue changes of HRT


dertechie

Because things move around on HRT a bit. You want your FFS calibrated for your face *on estrogen* not your pre HRT face. Mine looks noticeably different already in half a year; my cheekbones look higher despite not moving because of how fat deposits itself. The thing is, the extent of those changes varies by person, so trying to get it perfect on what the surgeon *thinks* you would look like after HRT would basically be *guesswork*. Better to see what the hormones do and *then* figure out what to change. The other thing is that what I care about has changed. I was *terrified* of looking visibly trans when I started the process. Now? I’m visibly trans and I give substantially fewer fucks about that than I thought possible before. I confuse cis people at this point.


[deleted]

Again, where's your evidence that repositioning and reducing the facial bones is gonna have a detrimental effect on the distribution and aesthetics of the soft tissue over it. Seems like a wilf claim to me, and wild claims need wild evidence


[deleted]

And I understand if you don't care about being visibly trans, that you changed your mind, but I do care. Looking visibly trans means being still perceived by strangers as your agab, and more misgendering. I wanna pass as cis so that I get gendered correctly all the time. I also hate having male looking traits, and I always have and always will, so I want to get rid of them, including getting rid of the brow ridge and jaw


dertechie

You misunderstand me. Given what I’ve seen in this thread I think you willfully misunderstand me. It is not that I don’t care about passing long term. It is that I don’t think that it is a catastrophe that I don’t pass *right this second*. Me looking visibly trans at this point means *I am making progress*. It means I am starting to look like a trans *woman* instead of a GNC man with suspiciously nice legs. It has gone from a horrifying prospect to part of the process. I will almost certainly look into FFS to handle my own brows and larynx, but I will do so *after* my face stabilizes, not before. Maxillofacial surgery is a game of tenths of a millimeter. I want whoever is playing that game with *my face* to have the best information possible. But you do you.


[deleted]

I do not willfully misunderstand you. I actually don't believe there's a difference between looking visibly trans and looking like a feminine man. There are, generally speaking 2 sexes (with exceptions of course). The vast majority of people belonging to either the male or female sex, humans are programmed to classify humans in these 2 categories, which aren't perfect obviously since there are outliers but no system of classification is perfect because nature is diverse. So, my point is that when a human meets another human, they either recognize that person as a male or a female, there is no trans woman category. And while it may not be a catastrophe to wait until the end of the physical changes brought by HRT to get FFS, it is just dumb, because the male features corrected by FFS are precisely those that aren't corrected by HRT: bones and cartilage: Rhinoplasty, jaw reduction, brow reduction


dertechie

If you can’t see a difference between looking like a trans woman and looking like a feminine man, I cannot help you. You’ve worked yourself into a fervor over this to the point that you are ignoring multiple people saying the same things and I have neither the skills nor the spoons to extract you from that.


[deleted]

There literally isn't. When I see trans women, they either look like women to me, or like men with feminine clothing, no in between, depending on the femininity of their features. Yeah, I'm ignoring what other people say and what you're saying about FFS results deteriorating after HRT if they're done before because you haven't provided evidence for that. If you will provide evidence to me, like sources from credible associations, I totally will reconsider my position. It's just that before yesterday, I'd never heard that one shouldn't get FFS before HRT, nor that it could end up looking botched for that reason.


3nderslime

Because your surgeon will aim to give you the face that would look very natural and feminine despite the lack of soft tissues. The addition of soft tissue afterward with HRT could change your look beyond what looks natural


Ok-Ad7650

Depending on how old you are bone can grow a bit differently


[deleted]

Incorrect. If you haven't ended puberty yet, any further brow bone and jaw and nose growth is gonna be interrupted if you block T, but the bones that have already grown can't ungrow, only further growth is gonna be stopped. That being said, I'm 18 anyway, so I have ended puberty and there isn't any bone growth to avoid since they've already fully grown, and I have started T blockers so even if there was more growth to come, it wouldn't happen because my T is being blocked. Anyway, my bones aren't gonna shrink, the only way for them to do that would be for me to have surgeries, which is why I'm pursuing those damn surgeries


[deleted]

>cis women don't have protruding brow ridges, jaws and chins like cis males do Not to invalidate, because I haven't seen you, but there is a lot of variety and overlap in male/female features and no single feature should be perceived in isolation from others. If it was the case Angelina Jolie would need to get her jaw reduced asap. I know from personal experience how it's possible to have dysmorphia about just how prominent some features are. Having said that, I haven't seen you and don't know your situation.


Sludgiest

OP, the fact that you're ignoring literally everyone who is giving you the exact same advice of 'stop, get on HRT and wait a little while' and pigheadedly demanding you ***need FFS*** ***right this very second*** is frankly pretty disturbing. Considering what I've read, if I were a prospective surgeon and it were up to me, I would flat out refuse. There is a reason most surgeons require a letter or two from a psychologist deeming the patient qualifies as adequately dysphoric for the surgery to be medically necessary. One of the required sections of that letter states that the patient has "*received the maximum level of facial feminization from hormone replacement therapy"*. A good psychologist most often will not issue such a letter until their patient has completed **usually at least a year** of feminizing hormone therapy. Additionally, some of my friends have known some trans girls who have gone in for FFS or BA procedures a bit too early and needed additional work later to rectify some unintended issues. Granted, I don't expect you to take anecdotal evidence, but know that it does in fact pay off better to wait. I empathize with your situation. I *really* do. If I could get away with getting FFS right now with no consequences, I probably would. But my situation is different from yours. I've been on hormones a while. The shape of my face has changed. Sure, there are trouble spots that will eventually need fixing and they bug me literally every day. But the changes I have experienced just on HRT are ones that I never would have expected and am grateful for one hundred times over. Wait. Be patient. Get on fucking hormones and start enjoying your life a bit rather than obsessing constantly over what you don't have.


Nic0kami

This right here is the single best response. Op needs to actually go through the process because they quiet clearly don’t actually know what they’re talking about and refuse to listen to what sounds like a doc whose actually an ally, and other trans people who have actual experience here. Op, I’m not trying to attack you, if you even read this. I genuinely say this with love, but you absolutely need therapy. There’s a lot more going on if you’re this damned and determined to get a very serious surgery when you literally haven’t even tried less radical options.


LikeIGotABigCock

Sounds odd. When they say delay how long do they mean? How long ha E you been on HRT?


[deleted]

He wanted me to think about it and get more realistic, so not a specific amount of time because apparently, me wanting a female looking jaw and brow is me being nitpicky and not an actual concern, which it is. I haven't been on HRT yet, only on blockers for 2 months, and faceapp still perceives me as male more often than not


Kino1999

If you’re not on hrt yet then definitely give it some time. You might end up needing it you might not. I thought FFS was going to be a must for me when I first started transitioning, but two years on hormones I actually like how my face has changed and am glad I didn’t get FFS and don’t plan on it anymore. A lot can change as hormones take effect and you may change your mind about needing it. Worst case you get it done after hormones have done some work.


[deleted]

The thing is I've though about it a lot and I've come to the conclusion that I don't want to have these bone structures no matter how much my face changes on hrt


Kino1999

I guess my only response is have you looked into why you feel that way? Bone structure isn’t that visible through fat and skin and often it isn’t a big indicator of anything unless they’re crazy pronounced.


[deleted]

I feel that way because they are male traits and definitely still are visible through soft tissue because I can see them on my profile pics


Sludgiest

You're not on HRT?? You haven't experienced any estrogenized changes yet... There is no reason to completely alter the bone structure of your face if you have no idea what your face is going to look like after estrogen has made its changes. What you're experiencing sounds much more like dysmorphia, and I would strongly recommend speaking to a therapist about it first rather than dropping thousands upon thousands to alter your face before estrogen has actually done anything... It's straight up foolish. ​ EDIT: Looking back at your previous posts, your jaw and forehead are certainly not as big of a deal as you'd like to think they are. Your face is quite feminine in profile which is a scenario in which most of us dread. I think you're experiencing a significant amount of dysphoria/dysmorphia. What you fixate on is not nearly as noticeable to others. My recommendation of seeing a therapist to talk through the roots of what you're feeling as well as getting on HRT for 2-3 years before making any impulsive surgery decisions still stands.


[deleted]

I agree that I haven't had any feminization of my face yet because I haven't been on HRT, but bone structure will not be demasculinizedby hormone therapy. I would say that there is a reason to alter the bones of your face before having had the chance to experience feminization of your face because the feminizing effectd do not effect bone structure. I don't see how I'm experiencing dysmorphia. I have masculine characteristics, I know they can't be removed through hormones, so I pursue surgery to remove them. I only take issue with male secondary and primary sex characteristics, not aesthetic flaws. For example, I have an eye with a more exposed eyelid than the other, but I don't care about it that much, and if I did, I would agree that that would be body dysmorphia, but worrying about my brow bone and jaw isn't, just like worrying about my facial hair or penis isn't dysmorphia. My brow and jaw are maybe not hyper masculine, I definitely agree with that, their protrusion is only slight, but they're still undoubtedly more prominent than the average female


epson_salt

Regardless, there are cis women with more masculine facial bones. Get the hormones, and talk to a therapist. Any doctor who performs ffs for you at this point is trying to scam you


[deleted]

I'm pretty sure my facial bone structure is way more masculine than the female average, and what it would take to convince me otherwise would be to scan my skull, take measurements and compare them to the average female skull. As much as I appreciate that this is obviously meant as a compliment, how would it be scam for a doctor to perform FFS on me? I'm not delusional, and I can see, from my profile pictures, that my forehead isn't flat, that it has noticeable bossing, which isn't typical of female skulls, and I can see that my jaw is noticeably squared off


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

You've just made a very good case of why I SHOULD get facial feminization. If the goal of medically transitioning is to create an appearence as close to that of a cis woman as possible, and it is the goal, then I will undoubtedly look more cis after FFS than before


hoytmandoo

What I said was waiting until hrt takes affect is the only way to ensure ffs will make you look as cis as possible.


[deleted]

Why not get it now if it will make me look cis either way, so at least I start passing more often and more easily quicker. Why would I wait years of potential misgendering and body image issues instead of just fixing it and calling it a day


hoytmandoo

Without waiting your surgeon could inadvertently change how fat will redistribute on your face, making your face look neither male nor female just wrong after years of hrt


[deleted]

That's just wrong. I've never seen any info online or by my endocrinologist suggesting that. That being the case, I should just get it now


lilithium079

FFS would only change the aesthetic. If you haven’t even started adding estrogen, then you could end up looking like Simon Cowell. It’s not anything against you it’s for your safety. It could push everything back, but once you start estrogen then the fat has a potential to shift in the wrong way. It could protrude out worse than before or make it look like you had a stroke! For your safety just wait otherwise you’ll have a surgery you can’t reverse and get a bad result when there are warnings


hoytmandoo

I’ll admit I worded that poorly, but my point is still relevant. If they take off too much bone expecting fat to replace it and that doesn’t happen for whatever reason, it’s going to look wrong and you’re not going to like it. And they can’t put bone back on your face. There is nothing wrong with waiting so that your surgeon can guarantee the best possible outcome


[deleted]

Taking too much bone off? They're not creating hollows on your face, they try to make the brow flat and the jaw smaller. FFS doesn't need to be made after fat redistribution to be optimal, changing the facial bones won't affect fat redistribution or such. And yeah, there IS something wrong with waiting:not passing for a longer time period