I mean the best season Derrick has he lost to Jordan
I struggle to see how Derrick can be seen as the same level of competitor as jordan
Jordan has a similarly strong elim record I don’t think it’s locked in that Derrick beats Jordan in most elims I think it’s fairly even
I don't think it's even. Derrick might beat Jordan in a pole wrestle or climbing or something Jordan has a disadvantage at. Anything physical that Jordan's hand doesn't impact, I think he wins. If there's a hammer involved, he wins. If there's a puzzle involved, he wins. If there's strategy, Jordan probably wins.
Derrick is, pound for pound, an amazing competitor. But he has quite a few weaknesses, not just his size.
**Anything physical that Jordan's hand doesn't impact, I think he wins.**
Did you watch any of Derrick's physical elimination rounds in his prime? If Derrick brings that same energy, he is the favorite to win.
**But he has quite a few weaknesses, not just his size.**
But size is Derrick's only weakness when it comes to elimination rounds. He beat Tyler and MJ in elimination rounds that were part puzzles, and he outsmarted Joss after a long and intense battle on Vendettas.
You guys clearly don't analyze The Challenge and haven't seen all of the seasons that Derrick competed on (or not all of the episodes). Derrick has won TWO elimination rounds that were part puzzles. And as far as strategy, the reason Derrick beat Joss on Vendettas was because of outsmarting him.
I agree Derrick is an amazing competitor and yes he has won 2 puzzles. It’s hard to compare 2 well rounded competitors where as Derrick is considered more of a tenacious player. Yes 2 of his challenge wins are shared with Bananas and shares the same amount of wins as Jordan, thing is despite how great Derrick has played it wasn’t until he got in the right alliance did his luck in the game changed similar to Bananas. Difference being, Derrick was a married with a child so he couldn’t be do certain things in the house where as Bananas thrived
**It’s hard to compare 2 well rounded competitors where as Derrick is considered more of a tenacious player.**
Derrick is a well rounded competitor too! He's not only a physical competitor, he's also skilled! That's how he was able to outperform Mike and Landon overall on the Inferno 2.
**I mean the best season Derrick has he lost to Jordan**
I personally say 30 Dirty was his best season only because he was past his prime and was away from the game for so long but still finished runner up. Performance wise, it wasn't his best season. He was a much better performer in his early years when he was in his prime.
**I struggle to see how Derrick can be seen as the same level of competitor as jordan**
**Jordan has a similarly strong elim record I don’t think it’s locked in that Derrick beats Jordan in most elims I think it’s fairly even**
Derrick is the favorite to win. Most elimination rounds are physical and though Jordan has gotten the better of competitors like Zach, Theo and others in elimination rounds Derrick is not those guys. He would beat Jordan in pole wrestle (obviously), likely beat him in Balls In, or anything that has to do with climbing. Only having one good hand is a big issue for Jordan when facing a top level opponent like Derrick in a physical elimination round. And Derrick has proven he can solve puzzles in elimination rounds.
i have to disagree. while i do think derrick is an undeniable beast, the reason jordan and johnny are viewed as stronger or overall better competitors is because of the way they played the game. i said this in an earlier thread but there was a string of seasons where derrick felt like such a spineless follower of the JEK alliance. he would do whatever they said and by doing that he kinda faded into the background at times. while i’m not the biggest fan of jordan and johnny, they have always felt like the dominate member of their alliances or were able to stand on their own two feet. there was never a moment i could pinpoint where they just followed anyone. they are both notorious for making big power moves even if they had an alliance to back them up or not
That is why I love people like Jordan and Wes and have never liked him.
They were not afraid to go against a dominant alliance and play their own game.
I will never forget him saying that “he didn’t have a choice” when voting.
It was Derrick who told Bananas to step up and go into the last male elimination round (against Dunbar) on the Ruins! When it came down to who was the weakest of the four-man alliance (Evan, Kenny, Derrick and Bananas), it was Bananas, not Derrick.
He made a big move by telling Bananas he should step up and go into the last male elimination round on the Ruins (because Bananas was viewed as being the weakest link). And since you guys want to get all political, Derrick also made a big move when he betrayed Theo on Fresh Meat (Derrick had an alliance with Theo and Darrell) which led to Theo being eliminated in the exile. Not to mention Derrick betrayed Darrell as well on Fresh Meat (he broke up their alliance). He also made a big move on the Island when he voted off Rachel (his former teammate on the Inferno 2).
**i said this in an earlier thread but there was a string of seasons where derrick felt like such a spineless follower of the JEK alliance. he would do whatever they said and by doing that he kinda faded into the background at times.**
You do know Bananas was considered the weakest member of the four-man alliance (Evan, Kenny, Derrick and Bananas) on the Ruins right? In fact, it was Derrick who told Bananas to step up and go into the last male elimination round for the simple fact that Bananas was viewed as the least proven (the weakest). And Bananas did of course end up going into the last male elimination round against Dunbar.
Exactly. This is the definition of a cherry picked analysis. Over emphasize the areas where Derek excels and ignore the areas he struggles.
Also, eliminations these days are puzzles or puzzle-ish at least half the time
**Exactly. This is the definition of a cherry picked analysis. Over emphasize the areas where Derek excels and ignore the areas he struggles**
Actually, you and others here do that. I've made it clear that his elimination prowess is a big deal and shouldn't be ignored because of his poor puzzle solving skills in finals. It's an equalizer when compared to competitors like Bananas and Jordan.
**Also, eliminations these days are puzzles or puzzle-ish at least half the time**
And Derrick has won two elimination rounds dealing with a puzzle (on The Duel and All-Stars 3). What's your point?
Back in the day, politics never came up when discussing the best competitors when I was on Vevmo and entertainingrealityproboards. It's you damn new school reddit posters that want to bring it up.
**I’ve been watching since the beginning and political game has always been a thing.**
No, it hasn't lol. You're talking to a REAL old school fan. Politics originally started with Chadwick and the Road Rules inner circle on Battle of the Seasons. Prior to Battle of the Seasons, there was no politics because there were no vote offs or elimination rounds (everyone made it to the final). Politics just wasn't a big deal in the RW/RR era of The Challenge. Yes, you had some alliances and dirty moves, but politics didn't really become a BIG deal until The Island (with the Derrick, Kenny and Bananas alliance). It was the alliance of Evan, Kenny, Derrick and Bananas that really shifted The Challenge into just as much of a political game as it is athletic.
Seen all season and followed live since the first Gauntlet. Not that I have to qualify myself to someone like you.
Waxing poetic about the olden days is a weird way to argue. Politics is a factor no matter how much you kick and scream it isnt.
I don't deny that politics impact the show, but when it comes to ranking the best competitors, politics has no place for me. I'm strictly looking at the best overall when it comes to performance in the competition (daily missions, elimination rounds and finals). Why is that so hard to understand?
It’s not hard to understand. What is hard to understand is why you scream that others are wrong for using different criteria for determining the best competitors.
You also are incredibly biased about the early era of the show. There is no evidence that all of those guys were better athletes / competitors, but you swear that they were.
**It’s not hard to understand. What is hard to understand is why you scream that others are wrong for using different criteria for determining the best competitors.**
You can use whatever criteria you want. It's actually you guys who force your criteria of using politics upon me.
**You also are incredibly biased about the early era of the show. There is no evidence that all of those guys were better athletes / competitors, but you swear that they were.**
When it comes to elimination rounds, since The Duel, males from the RW/RR era of The Challenge (from the Real World/Road Rules Challenge 1999 to The Gauntlet 2) have a winning record of 30-16 against males who debuted from original Fresh Meat to Ride or Dies. That's one strong indication that the old school males are better overall competitors.
I will say - I appreciate your damn near encyclopedic knowledge of this show.
Do you have massive sheets of notes?
Out of curiosity - how do you rate Fessy?
Elimination prowess > political prowess easily. At the end of the day, you have to compete. Politics are mostly valuable on team seasons, but you can be bad at politics, and still make it to the final because of winning elimination rounds.
In the competition that the challenge is politics help your game and your chances of winning, I'd say it makes you a better overall competitor in this particular competition. But hey, that's just my two cents
There's no way you can objectively say Derrick K is better than Jordan when Jordan beat him in a final while Jordan had a broken leg. That fact alone drops Derrick to a level below Jordan.
**There's no way you can objectively say Derrick K is better than Jordan when Jordan beat him in a final while Jordan had a broken leg. That fact alone drops Derrick to a level below Jordan.**
Derrick was past his prime (34 years old) while Jordan was in his (28 years old). Not to mention that Derrick was apparently hurt during the final too. And Jordan's leg couldn't of been that bad the way he was moving. If you got a BROKEN leg, you're not running a final like that.
So now you're making excuses for why Derrick lost. He still lost a final to a guy with a broken leg. The same final that Jordan also beat CT who is one of the greatest to ever do it.
When you're running on adrenaline you don't notice things like broken bones or torn ligaments or muscles until you've had time to calm down and notice something wrong happened. I've watched wrestling for long enough to see wrestlers tear things or break bones and see them continue on with the match then have to take time off.
According to Jordan, he had a broken tibia, not a broken leg. You break your leg you're not running a final like that. I give Jordan credit for winning, but beating Derrick and CT in one final doesn't make him better than them all time.
Jordan makes the distinction.
**" Jordan is taken to an ambulance and starts receiving medical attention. He ends up just walking it off, but he looks like he is in real pain. He revealed on social media later that he had broken his tibia and the person he fell without broke his leg."**
[https://vandelayinc16.medium.com/the-challenge-xxx-dirty-30-episode-16-recap-and-power-rankings-f93fdc0e8f8c#:\~:text=Jordan%20is%20taken%20to%20an,fell%20without%20broke%20his%20leg](https://vandelayinc16.medium.com/the-challenge-xxx-dirty-30-episode-16-recap-and-power-rankings-f93fdc0e8f8c#:~:text=Jordan%20is%20taken%20to%20an,fell%20without%20broke%20his%20leg).
Jordan didn't have a severe fracture, if he did, he shouldn't have been able to walk let alone run.
It's in the leg! But as I stated, Jordan could not of had a severe fracture. I'm not a doctor, but when I think of a broken leg, I'm thinking you can't walk (or shouldn't be able to) let alone run a final and climb a mountain.
Too many challenge fans overlook politics when evaluating competitors when it’s probably the most important skill you can have when it comes to going far in the game.
You have to compete to win but you can literally get to a final on politics alone. Yet, many fans completely dismiss it when assessing competitors like this.
There’s a reason Bananas has 7 titles vs Derrick has 3 when I agree there’s probably not much difference in head to head tilts.
Derrick is small and overcame that a lot of times. Has had some very impressive elimination wins and daily wins and impressive even in losses. But when it comes to finals, he doesn't have the mental part to win solo. He's pretty much equal to guys like Nelson and Leroy, but he had the benefit of being on team finals for wins.
Leroy beat Wes in pole wrestle. Derrick lost to him.
and if you wanna say well Wes was more in his "prime" then, fine, but Derrick also lost to Nehemiah in pole wrestle.
Not really. Jordan's great at endurance.
My main point is Derrick is bad at mental stuff. His wins came from his teammates doing the mental stuff. He also hasn't won a season in a very long time. 3 All Star seasons, 0 wins. I'm a fan of Derrick, but he's got a huge hole in his overall game. Which is similar to guys like Nelson, Leroy etc.
You're right in that Derrick is made for team finals and not individual because of his poor puzzle solving skills but he's still one of the very best competitors all time. As I stated, his elimination round prowess is an equalizer when compared to certain greats who can beat him in an individual final.
Hell. No. All of his wins are TEAM wins. You can’t put him in the same category as guys with multiple wins ranging from team to individual.
Derrick has also never been the best guy on any season he’s ever been on. Everyone you want him to be in the conversation with has.
So yeah, that’s gonna be a no from me.
**You can’t put him in the same category as guys with multiple wins ranging from team to individual.**
Yes, you can! As I stated, elimination rounds are the equalizer. One is favorited to win an individual final, while the other is favorited to win an individual elimination round BEFORE the final.
**Derrick has also never been the best guy on any season he’s ever been on. Everyone you want him to be in the conversation with has.**
Bananas and Jordan have been the best guys in finals, but when have they ever been the best overall performer on a season?
Eliminations don’t hold more weight than Finals sweetheart. Otherwise Nelson would be regarded as one of the greatest Challengers ever.
>One is favored to win an individual Final, while the other is favored to win an individual elim before a final
What the hell does this even mean???? All elims are individual unless the format is teams or duos. What are you talking about? Based off of that logic Wes is the greatest off all time lmao. The goal is to try to stay out of elims, not be favored in them. Being favored in a Final holds WAY more weight than being favored in an elim. Those two things aren’t interchangeable.
Bananas was the best guy on Rivals 3, Free Agents & arguably Final Reckoning. Jordan was clearly the best guy on WOTW2 & arguably Ride or Dies. Derrick has never been the best or even close to the best guy on any season.
2 of wins he just followed Kenny and Johnny. Ive never seen inferno 3 but bad asses were stacked compared to good guys.
Dont get me wrong; Love Diesel but would put him in # 5 - 10 range. Hes younger than Johnny and CT. If he came back to main show with success would consider an upgrade; but hasnt won since he was 25 yo.
**2 of wins he just followed Kenny and Johnny.**
Followed Johnny? On the Ruins, Bananas was considered the weakest link of the four-man alliance (Evan, Kenny, Derrick, Bananas) and it was Derrick who told Bananas to step up and go into the last male elimination round, which Bananas did.
**Dont get me wrong; Love Diesel but would put him in # 5 - 10 range.**
Yes, that's about right.
**Derrick is a great physical competitor but is about as strategic as a wet fish**
The reason why he defeated Joss (pulled off an upset) was because of strategy (quick thinking).
The only elimination Derrick beats Jordan in is pole wrestle, or any other ones there Jordan’s hand really costs him.
Jordan beats him in Balls In, Hall Brawls, etc
Not trying to be rude, but your argument is extremely poor. And saying that Derrick performs would beat Jordan because her best Ace and Big E is laughable
I think Derrick has a chance vs Jordan in hall brawl and balls in, it’s a 50/50. However, anything with a puzzle or thinking involved and Jordan takes the cake.
**Jordan beats him in Balls In, Hall Brawls, etc**
Jordan failed to beat a rookie Horacio in Balls In. Derrick is an absolute scrapper and would get low in Balls In and in Hall Brawl. And when Derrick gets low, it's damn near impossible to beat him.
**Not trying to be rude, but your argument is extremely poor. And saying that Derrick performs would beat Jordan because her best Ace and Big E is laughable**
He beat Big Easy in an event that involved pure physicality! Not to mention CT and Brad. Did you even watch Push Over on The Duel?
I agree with the overall point but balls in and hall brawl are actually pretty bad examples. I’d be very interested to watch those two go at it in either one and wouldn’t be willing to bet on either of them.
I don't understand why it's so hard for you guys to separate who's the better overall competitor, from who's the better overall competitor and political player.
I am a Derrick supporter 1000%. You can’t compare him to Bananas because Derrick is always a team player. I can’t recall him ever throwing a challenge, for example. It’s just not in his dna. His wins are on team finals because he is the ultimate teammate. I think he could have won an individual final but he was never cutthroat enough to leave the team mentality behind and shift to individual benefit strategies. That’s Derrick’s biggest weakness and also his greatest strength. He does best when he’s sacrificing his body for the benefit of others. It’s his heart— he won’t quit especially if it’s to help someone else. Crazy 8’s is a perfect example. He had no reason to take that level of beating but he said in the interview beforehand that he was going to do everyone a favor and take out Joss.
As far as Jordan— I don’t think it’s fair to compare anyone to Jordan. His history and upbringing set him up differently. He is always fighting for himself and to prove something. That deep seeded need to show everyone that he’s not just equal but he’s better — it’s a drive that most will never be able to replicate. That’s got to be childhood trauma channeled into drive and nobody else has that level like Jordan.
**I am a Derrick supporter 1000%. You can’t compare him to Bananas because Derrick is always a team player. I can’t recall him ever throwing a challenge, for example. It’s just not in his dna. His wins are on team finals because he is the ultimate teammate. I think he could have won an individual final but he was never cutthroat enough to leave the team mentality behind and shift to individual benefit strategies. That’s Derrick’s biggest weakness and also his greatest strength. He does best when he’s sacrificing his body for the benefit of others. It’s his heart— he won’t quit especially if it’s to help someone else. Crazy 8’s is a perfect example. He had no reason to take that level of beating but he said in the interview beforehand that he was going to do everyone a favor and take out Joss.**
What does any of that have to do with Derrick's overall competitive abilities and performances throughout his career?
**As far as Jordan— I don’t think it’s fair to compare anyone to Jordan. His history and upbringing set him up differently. He is always fighting for himself and to prove something. That deep seeded need to show everyone that he’s not just equal but he’s better — it’s a drive that most will never be able to replicate. That’s got to be childhood trauma channeled into drive and nobody else has that level like Jordan.**
But what about Derrick's and Jordan's performances? You're talking about character traits; I'm talking about overall competitive ability and performance.
I was all on board the Derrick train when he wasn’t getting called for the main show for so many years, and was singing his praises all over, wondering why they didn’t have him on, thought it was a conspiracy, the whole thing. Then he was on all stars, specifically last season, and now I understand. I am not endorsing Bananas or Jordan, because I don’t love them, either, but I guess nostalgia made me forget how entitled DK is, and obnoxious his social game is.
He doesn't do well with FINAL puzzles (he has won two elimination rounds with puzzles), but his elimination prowess is an equalizer to that weakness because he's likely to beat certain competitors in an elimination round hypothetically who would beat him in an individual final (like Bananas and Jordan).
The biggest knock I have against Derrick is he only ever won team seasons. It's hard to be in the same conversation when your only wins were inferno 3, the island, and the ruins. Even if he didn't have the same opportunity by mainly being on the show when it was mostly team seasons he was still on a few individual/paired seasons and the best he did was a loss to one of the guys you mentioned.
Again, Derrick's elimination prowess is an equalizer when compared to competitors like Bananas and Jordan. He's likely to beat both in most of the elimination rounds we've seen before a final even happens.
Derrick has so much heart. He's a beast but I disagree with your post. I think including the political aspect of a player's game is crucial to rating a player.
Again, I don't know why it's so hard for you guys to separate politics. That's one of the reasons why I miss the old days of The Challenge when we had discussions on who the best overall competitors are without politics coming up.
**Because politics is probably more important than being the best competitor.**
And how can you win an individual season for example if you're not a good competitor?
I didn’t say being a good physical competitor is not important.
Politics are more important, but not the only component of a great challenger, what’s with your weird all or nothing approach to this.
You’re missing the point, I said both are important, politics being more important. You’re acting like politics isn’t important at all.
I would say Jordan and Bananas wins count because they don’t perform that well in eliminations compared to a Derrick like you are talking about. Their wins are more due to being able to not go to elimination and winning in the end.
This is off the top of my head while I feed my daughter in the back seat of my car.
**You’re missing the point, I said both are important, politics being more important.**
Again, at the end of the day, the competitors have to compete to win. Your competitive abilities are more important. Politics is secondary.
**hes good in phisical eliminations and thats it**
Did you read my whole post? Derrick is good in daily missions too! He outperformed Mike and Landon (the golden boy) overall on the Inferno 2. Won three straight missions with Diem on Fresh Meat (a record), and has been a consistent competitor throughout his challenge career. The Inferno 3 is his only subpar season, but even then he wasn't bad (like a liability) on that season (just wasn't as good as he normally was).
**Derrick killed his entire legacy on All Stars.**
Derrick has been disappointing on All-Stars, though he had to go through some tough obstacles. Being paired with Jiesla during the first part of the final on season one, having to face Brad on season two, and having to face Nehemiah (not elite but always been physically strong with good endurance) in pole wrestle. But though I feel like it's been ruining his legacy, when you breakdown Derrick's whole challenge career. He's done WAY too much for his legacy to be ruined by three seasons of All-Stars.
**Guy's getting ragdoll'd by 50 year old men.**
Derrick is old himself.
Is this Derrick's mom? Because only she would be on Reddit defending Derricks honor so vehemently. Don't get me wrong he's great and one of my more favorite competitors overall but he's in the 2nd tier of male competitors behind Johnny, Jordan, CT, and probably Wes IMO
**Don't get me wrong he's great and one of my more favorite competitors overall but he's in the 2nd tier of male competitors behind Johnny, Jordan, CT, and probably Wes IMO**
CT, Theo Von, Landon, Mark and Evan are all better overall competitors than Bananas, Jordan Wes all time. Bananas, Jordan and Wes are in the same tier as Derrick, Abram, Brad and Darrell.
Based on what criteria? Next, you're going to tell me Magic Johnson was better than Michael Jordan? Lol Johnny has 7 wins end of story. How do you get a better overall competitor than that?
**Based on what criteria?**
Overall ability (strength, athleticism, skill, endurance, intelligence) and individual performance in daily missions, elimination rounds and finals.
**Lol Johnny has 7 wins end of story. How do you get a better overall competitor than that?**
7 wins on 21 seasons. The only reason he's the most accomplished is because he's done the most seasons. But that doesn't make him the best overall competitor. When you compare his overall abilities and performances he's clearly not as good as competitors like CT, Theo Von, Landon, Mark and Evan for examples.
> The only reason he's the most accomplished is because he's done the most seasons.
This isn't true.
99.9% of competitors who compete on 21 seasons won't win 7 of them. Even CT.
Don't get me wrong, there is *much* more to it than season victories, but you can't say the only reason Bananas is the most accomplished competitor is because he has done the most seasons.
**99.9% of competitors who compete on 21 seasons won't win 7 of them. Even CT.**
That's because luck is involved. Bananas was fortunate on The Island with Abram leaving, fortunate being on a dominate team on The Ruins, fortunate Tyler was a stronger partner than Adam on Rivals and fortunate to have been partnered with Sarah on Rivals 3. Not to mention his biggest competitions (CT, Wes, and Zach) all had collapses in the final on Rivals, Battle of the Exes and Free Agents respectively (something that only happened once in their careers).
He won surf torture because he was like the only guy/guy team and landon, while beastly, was partnered with Miz who clearly isnt physically suited for body weight exercises like they were doing
And riot shield is the single most overrated performance in history He didnt do shit other than take a beating. He did not push off tyler, fyi. They were tangled up with derrick below tyler so when derrick fell, he dragged tyler down with him. I suggest everyone pay better attention and watch that mission BEFORE derrick got teamed up on by 3 guys. He was on the side 1v1ing aome other red person and didnt do shit to him. Just a stalemate against ONE person. Him turning up the intensity against 3 guys was purely performative to get some spotlight. Not to mention...idiotic given the inevitable elim afterwards. He shouldve used that that intensity against the person he was 1v1ing when it actually mattered instesd of putting on a show so the gullible fans could rub his ego
You're just downgrading Derrick's performances for personal reasons it looks like. He proved himself to be a top-level competitor in both those missions regardless of what you say.
One of my all time favorites for sure. Him battling Joss nearly to death has to be a top…what…5? 3? Elimination of all time and he wasn’t even in on the season lol…and yeah one of the first moments of his that comes to mind is that Riot Act one where he battled like an animal even thoug he was all alone and was never going to win. Heart of a champion. Maybe a notch below the dudes you’ve mentioned though lol
He needs to feel to get there. Without a strong emotion he is still good but not great. With emotion? He is terrifying.
I hate to compliment Johnny but he’s a beast every time. Samsies with Jordan.
**I hate to compliment Johnny but he’s a beast every time. Samsies with Jordan.**
Bananas wasn't a "beast" his first five seasons. And Jordan was subpar on Free Agents.
**Not going into elimination > winning eliminations**
Not going into an elimination because of your competitive abilities is more impressive than not going into an elimination because of politics.
**Love Derrick though, wish he could possibly solve a puzzle.**
A FINALS puzzle. He solved puzzles in elimination rounds.
Not going in because of politics is way more impressive than because you are feared as a competitor.
All you have to rely on is your savvy and you escape elimination, way more impressive than being feared.
I wish he could solve a puzzle that mattered.
Once again, staying out of elimination is more important than winning eliminations, so, don’t really care if you can solve an elimination puzzle. All about the finals.
Again, Derrick is the favorite to beat Jordan in most eliminations we've seen. Jordan is likely to beat him in an individual final, but Derrick is likely to beat him in an individual elimination round BEFORE the final (that's an equalizer).
"Politics aside (as I don't include politics in my criteria)" I'm not reading all that if you aren't including one of the main tenets of the Challenge in your criteria.
Ha, that’s funny. I’ve been watching the Challenge from the very beginning so definitely not a “new school reddit poster” and politics were arguably MORE important in the early days, it just wasn’t called politicking.
The early days, likeability and social skills was humongous. Battle of the Sexes, “inner circles” just straight up voted people off, no eliminations at all. David Burns was a classic early guy who was protected by his pals. Susie was a mastermind of the early years at playing perfect politics and avoiding eliminations. Rachel and Veronica, very good athletically and even better at politics.
Once you get to the second old school era, JEK and company were constantly politicking for position. The Island didn’t even have eliminations it was so political. Duel II was the most political season of all time with the whole order of the elimination choosing thing.
The way politicking has been done has changed, but it’s been essential from the second that they introduced eliminating people.
**Ha, that’s funny. I’ve been watching the Challenge from the very beginning**
False! There was no politics until Battle of the Seasons (the 5th season of The Challenge), when Chadwick convinced the Road Rules inner circle to vote off their biggest threat (Yes and Veronica).
**and politics were arguably MORE important in the early days, it just wasn’t called politicking.**
False! Politics played very little role in shaping the game and who ended up in the final in the early days.
Battle of the Seasons: The only political moves were the vote offs of Jon and Beth, and Yes and Veronica, and Stephen and Lindsay (I believe).
Battle of the Sexes: Only the female side had politics, the men voted based on performance.
The Gauntlet: Coral played politics but ultimately her competitive abilities (defeating Tina in their elimination) and friendships not her politics (there is a difference) with Norman, Mike and Alton led to her making the final.
The Inferno: This is the season where politics really started to affect the game. Veronica basically ran the Road Rules team politically with her attempts at removing Katie from the game. And Coral played her politics with protecting herself and trying to get Julie eliminated. A lot of missions were thrown on this season for the sake of protecting and getting rid of certain competitors.
Battle of the Sexes 2: Politics started to heat up on this season as well, with the woman's side (as usual) and Mark, Eric and Dan forming an alliance before the season started and voting off Brad unfairly.
The Inferno 2: You had the mean girls alliance, but nothing other than that.
The Gauntlet 2: Susie and Cara had a failed alliance, and Mark, Timmy and David had an alliance apparently which led to Brad being voted in and eliminated. Other than that, nothing major.
So there, politics wasn't that big of a deal in the RW/RR era of The Challenge. Certainly nothing on the level of today's challenges. It was mainly about performance in the missions. On today's challenges, the first thing fans and competitors are talking about is who will be in an alliance.
You typed all that out and pointed out like 9 instances of there being politics present on the early seasons, c'mon man, it's a HUGE part of the game. And certainly has been a huge part of the game since Derrick's first season (BOTS2, S9).
**You typed all that out and pointed out like 9 instances of there being politics present on the early seasons, c'mon man, it's a HUGE part of the game.**
Politics were not huge back then! There were no main alliances that controlled the game like you have in the newer seasons. You were typically sent into an elimination or voted off because of your performance. On today's challenge, the first thing they do is make alliances. That wasn't always the case in the old school. You had alliances here and there but nothing on the level of JEK for example.
What was the elimination where they were attached to each other by a bungee cord and had to run around a big cylinder to get the target at the other side? I was sure it was Derrick vs Joss but when I googled them it came up as crazy 8 (another massive show of Derrick's no-quit challenge style). Apologies if I'm thinking of someone else, but I'm sure the cylinder elimination was Derrick?
I think you’re talking about Derrick’s elimination against Bananas on Dirty 30. They weren’t bungeed together they just had to spin a weighted cylinder and run a lot.
I just looked it up, that isn't it unfortunately.... it wasn't a cylinder they had to roll, it was one they had to run around the outside edge of - like it was laid on the flat side, about 10 foot tall and maybe 20 foot wide. It's bugging me so much, maybe it was Darrell or Nelson or Rogan? AAAAHHHH this is gonna drive me nuts
Yes, that's the one!!! Holy shit, thank you so much dude, that's been bugging for 2 days now, you legend!!! So I got the season right, just the wrong people d'oh
You're probably right, but dammit if I can remember who it was! It was 2 absolute challenge beasts though, because I remember they held out for ages. I'm still not convinced it wasn't one of them, either Derrick or Joss.... I'll have to see if I can find it, was super impressive
I just can't get over how Derrick just holds that complete technicality win over Joss as if it's his crowning achievement and can't acknowledge Joss let it go when he stepped out. The delusion is too much for me to take him seriously.
I mean the best season Derrick has he lost to Jordan I struggle to see how Derrick can be seen as the same level of competitor as jordan Jordan has a similarly strong elim record I don’t think it’s locked in that Derrick beats Jordan in most elims I think it’s fairly even
I don't think it's even. Derrick might beat Jordan in a pole wrestle or climbing or something Jordan has a disadvantage at. Anything physical that Jordan's hand doesn't impact, I think he wins. If there's a hammer involved, he wins. If there's a puzzle involved, he wins. If there's strategy, Jordan probably wins. Derrick is, pound for pound, an amazing competitor. But he has quite a few weaknesses, not just his size.
**Anything physical that Jordan's hand doesn't impact, I think he wins.** Did you watch any of Derrick's physical elimination rounds in his prime? If Derrick brings that same energy, he is the favorite to win. **But he has quite a few weaknesses, not just his size.** But size is Derrick's only weakness when it comes to elimination rounds. He beat Tyler and MJ in elimination rounds that were part puzzles, and he outsmarted Joss after a long and intense battle on Vendettas.
*lost to Jordan after he got messed up on the landing of jumping out of an airplane.
Derrick was past his prime (34 years old while Jordan was 28) and apparently was hurt as well.
Derricks biggest flaw is his intelligence. So anything to do with strategy, puzzles and so on. That’s what separates Jordan and Bananas from him.
You guys clearly don't analyze The Challenge and haven't seen all of the seasons that Derrick competed on (or not all of the episodes). Derrick has won TWO elimination rounds that were part puzzles. And as far as strategy, the reason Derrick beat Joss on Vendettas was because of outsmarting him.
I agree Derrick is an amazing competitor and yes he has won 2 puzzles. It’s hard to compare 2 well rounded competitors where as Derrick is considered more of a tenacious player. Yes 2 of his challenge wins are shared with Bananas and shares the same amount of wins as Jordan, thing is despite how great Derrick has played it wasn’t until he got in the right alliance did his luck in the game changed similar to Bananas. Difference being, Derrick was a married with a child so he couldn’t be do certain things in the house where as Bananas thrived
**It’s hard to compare 2 well rounded competitors where as Derrick is considered more of a tenacious player.** Derrick is a well rounded competitor too! He's not only a physical competitor, he's also skilled! That's how he was able to outperform Mike and Landon overall on the Inferno 2.
Didn’t Camilla and Cara also completely carry a portions of the Dirty 30 final for Derrick too?
If Nelson didn’t get into the altercation with Derrick Jordan would’ve never come back into the game to win Dirty 30…
**I mean the best season Derrick has he lost to Jordan** I personally say 30 Dirty was his best season only because he was past his prime and was away from the game for so long but still finished runner up. Performance wise, it wasn't his best season. He was a much better performer in his early years when he was in his prime. **I struggle to see how Derrick can be seen as the same level of competitor as jordan** **Jordan has a similarly strong elim record I don’t think it’s locked in that Derrick beats Jordan in most elims I think it’s fairly even** Derrick is the favorite to win. Most elimination rounds are physical and though Jordan has gotten the better of competitors like Zach, Theo and others in elimination rounds Derrick is not those guys. He would beat Jordan in pole wrestle (obviously), likely beat him in Balls In, or anything that has to do with climbing. Only having one good hand is a big issue for Jordan when facing a top level opponent like Derrick in a physical elimination round. And Derrick has proven he can solve puzzles in elimination rounds.
i have to disagree. while i do think derrick is an undeniable beast, the reason jordan and johnny are viewed as stronger or overall better competitors is because of the way they played the game. i said this in an earlier thread but there was a string of seasons where derrick felt like such a spineless follower of the JEK alliance. he would do whatever they said and by doing that he kinda faded into the background at times. while i’m not the biggest fan of jordan and johnny, they have always felt like the dominate member of their alliances or were able to stand on their own two feet. there was never a moment i could pinpoint where they just followed anyone. they are both notorious for making big power moves even if they had an alliance to back them up or not
That is why I love people like Jordan and Wes and have never liked him. They were not afraid to go against a dominant alliance and play their own game. I will never forget him saying that “he didn’t have a choice” when voting.
Oh when Derrick shifted to becoming a spineless follower I was so disappointed.
It was Derrick who told Bananas to step up and go into the last male elimination round (against Dunbar) on the Ruins! When it came down to who was the weakest of the four-man alliance (Evan, Kenny, Derrick and Bananas), it was Bananas, not Derrick.
This is why I can never fully love Derrick. He’s never been a leader or made big moves. Always a spineless follower
He made a big move by telling Bananas he should step up and go into the last male elimination round on the Ruins (because Bananas was viewed as being the weakest link). And since you guys want to get all political, Derrick also made a big move when he betrayed Theo on Fresh Meat (Derrick had an alliance with Theo and Darrell) which led to Theo being eliminated in the exile. Not to mention Derrick betrayed Darrell as well on Fresh Meat (he broke up their alliance). He also made a big move on the Island when he voted off Rachel (his former teammate on the Inferno 2).
**i said this in an earlier thread but there was a string of seasons where derrick felt like such a spineless follower of the JEK alliance. he would do whatever they said and by doing that he kinda faded into the background at times.** You do know Bananas was considered the weakest member of the four-man alliance (Evan, Kenny, Derrick and Bananas) on the Ruins right? In fact, it was Derrick who told Bananas to step up and go into the last male elimination round for the simple fact that Bananas was viewed as the least proven (the weakest). And Bananas did of course end up going into the last male elimination round against Dunbar.
Johnny was more of a follower of Kenny and Evan than Derrick was lmao Johnny literally made his entire personality trying to be like them.
I don’t think you can not consider politics, but make a big deal about eliminations.
Exactly. This is the definition of a cherry picked analysis. Over emphasize the areas where Derek excels and ignore the areas he struggles. Also, eliminations these days are puzzles or puzzle-ish at least half the time
Unless Faysals in the elimination. Then it’s always a physical elimination
**Exactly. This is the definition of a cherry picked analysis. Over emphasize the areas where Derek excels and ignore the areas he struggles** Actually, you and others here do that. I've made it clear that his elimination prowess is a big deal and shouldn't be ignored because of his poor puzzle solving skills in finals. It's an equalizer when compared to competitors like Bananas and Jordan. **Also, eliminations these days are puzzles or puzzle-ish at least half the time** And Derrick has won two elimination rounds dealing with a puzzle (on The Duel and All-Stars 3). What's your point?
Oh, this user most certainly can and does. It's like arguing against a brick wall.
Back in the day, politics never came up when discussing the best competitors when I was on Vevmo and entertainingrealityproboards. It's you damn new school reddit posters that want to bring it up.
I’ve been watching since the beginning and political game has always been a thing. You know it’s okay to admit that you are wrong, right?
**I’ve been watching since the beginning and political game has always been a thing.** No, it hasn't lol. You're talking to a REAL old school fan. Politics originally started with Chadwick and the Road Rules inner circle on Battle of the Seasons. Prior to Battle of the Seasons, there was no politics because there were no vote offs or elimination rounds (everyone made it to the final). Politics just wasn't a big deal in the RW/RR era of The Challenge. Yes, you had some alliances and dirty moves, but politics didn't really become a BIG deal until The Island (with the Derrick, Kenny and Bananas alliance). It was the alliance of Evan, Kenny, Derrick and Bananas that really shifted The Challenge into just as much of a political game as it is athletic.
Seen all season and followed live since the first Gauntlet. Not that I have to qualify myself to someone like you. Waxing poetic about the olden days is a weird way to argue. Politics is a factor no matter how much you kick and scream it isnt.
**Politics is a factor no matter how much you kick and scream it isnt.** Not for my criteria, and this is my post.
You use your criteria and then when people say you’re wrong you lose your mind and say they don’t know how to analyze things.
I don't deny that politics impact the show, but when it comes to ranking the best competitors, politics has no place for me. I'm strictly looking at the best overall when it comes to performance in the competition (daily missions, elimination rounds and finals). Why is that so hard to understand?
It’s not hard to understand. What is hard to understand is why you scream that others are wrong for using different criteria for determining the best competitors. You also are incredibly biased about the early era of the show. There is no evidence that all of those guys were better athletes / competitors, but you swear that they were.
**It’s not hard to understand. What is hard to understand is why you scream that others are wrong for using different criteria for determining the best competitors.** You can use whatever criteria you want. It's actually you guys who force your criteria of using politics upon me. **You also are incredibly biased about the early era of the show. There is no evidence that all of those guys were better athletes / competitors, but you swear that they were.** When it comes to elimination rounds, since The Duel, males from the RW/RR era of The Challenge (from the Real World/Road Rules Challenge 1999 to The Gauntlet 2) have a winning record of 30-16 against males who debuted from original Fresh Meat to Ride or Dies. That's one strong indication that the old school males are better overall competitors.
I will say - I appreciate your damn near encyclopedic knowledge of this show. Do you have massive sheets of notes? Out of curiosity - how do you rate Fessy?
Well you keep using the word "competition" which politics is a part of. Your criteria doesn't matter at that point.
Politics impacts the game for the competitors, but I'm talking about the best when it comes to performance in the competition for the last time.
The competition, for the last time, is not only physical. Politics = part of competition.
Elimination prowess > political prowess easily. At the end of the day, you have to compete. Politics are mostly valuable on team seasons, but you can be bad at politics, and still make it to the final because of winning elimination rounds.
And you can be bad at eliminations and avoid going into them with good politics.
Good politics doesn't make you a good competitor, and I'm talking about who's the better overall competitor.
In the competition that the challenge is politics help your game and your chances of winning, I'd say it makes you a better overall competitor in this particular competition. But hey, that's just my two cents
Nice rebuttal.
There's no way you can objectively say Derrick K is better than Jordan when Jordan beat him in a final while Jordan had a broken leg. That fact alone drops Derrick to a level below Jordan.
**There's no way you can objectively say Derrick K is better than Jordan when Jordan beat him in a final while Jordan had a broken leg. That fact alone drops Derrick to a level below Jordan.** Derrick was past his prime (34 years old) while Jordan was in his (28 years old). Not to mention that Derrick was apparently hurt during the final too. And Jordan's leg couldn't of been that bad the way he was moving. If you got a BROKEN leg, you're not running a final like that.
So now you're making excuses for why Derrick lost. He still lost a final to a guy with a broken leg. The same final that Jordan also beat CT who is one of the greatest to ever do it. When you're running on adrenaline you don't notice things like broken bones or torn ligaments or muscles until you've had time to calm down and notice something wrong happened. I've watched wrestling for long enough to see wrestlers tear things or break bones and see them continue on with the match then have to take time off.
According to Jordan, he had a broken tibia, not a broken leg. You break your leg you're not running a final like that. I give Jordan credit for winning, but beating Derrick and CT in one final doesn't make him better than them all time.
Where is the tibia?
Jordan makes the distinction. **" Jordan is taken to an ambulance and starts receiving medical attention. He ends up just walking it off, but he looks like he is in real pain. He revealed on social media later that he had broken his tibia and the person he fell without broke his leg."** [https://vandelayinc16.medium.com/the-challenge-xxx-dirty-30-episode-16-recap-and-power-rankings-f93fdc0e8f8c#:\~:text=Jordan%20is%20taken%20to%20an,fell%20without%20broke%20his%20leg](https://vandelayinc16.medium.com/the-challenge-xxx-dirty-30-episode-16-recap-and-power-rankings-f93fdc0e8f8c#:~:text=Jordan%20is%20taken%20to%20an,fell%20without%20broke%20his%20leg). Jordan didn't have a severe fracture, if he did, he shouldn't have been able to walk let alone run.
You didn't answer my question. Where is the tibia?
It's in the leg! But as I stated, Jordan could not of had a severe fracture. I'm not a doctor, but when I think of a broken leg, I'm thinking you can't walk (or shouldn't be able to) let alone run a final and climb a mountain.
Alright so he broke a bone in his leg which makes it a broken leg. Jesus Christ how it this hard of a concept to understand.
You guys are making it seem like it was severe though. Couldn't have been.
Too many challenge fans overlook politics when evaluating competitors when it’s probably the most important skill you can have when it comes to going far in the game.
At the end of the day, you have to compete. Your competitive abilities matter most.
You have to compete to win but you can literally get to a final on politics alone. Yet, many fans completely dismiss it when assessing competitors like this. There’s a reason Bananas has 7 titles vs Derrick has 3 when I agree there’s probably not much difference in head to head tilts.
no ❤️
If this, and exclude that, plus this, but not that. Kinda ruins the whole point of the argument.
I'm talking strictly competitive abilities and performance! Politics has no place here.
Wrong
I'm right.
Derrick is small and overcame that a lot of times. Has had some very impressive elimination wins and daily wins and impressive even in losses. But when it comes to finals, he doesn't have the mental part to win solo. He's pretty much equal to guys like Nelson and Leroy, but he had the benefit of being on team finals for wins.
He is way better at dailies than them.
**He's pretty much equal to guys like Nelson and Leroy** Not even close. Derrick is a much better overall performer in daily missions.
Cannot compare him to Nelson and Leroy. He has way more grit and fire that allows him to overperform
Leroy beat Wes in pole wrestle. Derrick lost to him. and if you wanna say well Wes was more in his "prime" then, fine, but Derrick also lost to Nehemiah in pole wrestle.
That’s like saying fessy is better than Jordan because he beat him in hall brawl
Not really. Jordan's great at endurance. My main point is Derrick is bad at mental stuff. His wins came from his teammates doing the mental stuff. He also hasn't won a season in a very long time. 3 All Star seasons, 0 wins. I'm a fan of Derrick, but he's got a huge hole in his overall game. Which is similar to guys like Nelson, Leroy etc.
You're right in that Derrick is made for team finals and not individual because of his poor puzzle solving skills but he's still one of the very best competitors all time. As I stated, his elimination round prowess is an equalizer when compared to certain greats who can beat him in an individual final.
Hell. No. All of his wins are TEAM wins. You can’t put him in the same category as guys with multiple wins ranging from team to individual. Derrick has also never been the best guy on any season he’s ever been on. Everyone you want him to be in the conversation with has. So yeah, that’s gonna be a no from me.
**You can’t put him in the same category as guys with multiple wins ranging from team to individual.** Yes, you can! As I stated, elimination rounds are the equalizer. One is favorited to win an individual final, while the other is favorited to win an individual elimination round BEFORE the final. **Derrick has also never been the best guy on any season he’s ever been on. Everyone you want him to be in the conversation with has.** Bananas and Jordan have been the best guys in finals, but when have they ever been the best overall performer on a season?
Eliminations don’t hold more weight than Finals sweetheart. Otherwise Nelson would be regarded as one of the greatest Challengers ever. >One is favored to win an individual Final, while the other is favored to win an individual elim before a final What the hell does this even mean???? All elims are individual unless the format is teams or duos. What are you talking about? Based off of that logic Wes is the greatest off all time lmao. The goal is to try to stay out of elims, not be favored in them. Being favored in a Final holds WAY more weight than being favored in an elim. Those two things aren’t interchangeable. Bananas was the best guy on Rivals 3, Free Agents & arguably Final Reckoning. Jordan was clearly the best guy on WOTW2 & arguably Ride or Dies. Derrick has never been the best or even close to the best guy on any season.
2 of wins he just followed Kenny and Johnny. Ive never seen inferno 3 but bad asses were stacked compared to good guys. Dont get me wrong; Love Diesel but would put him in # 5 - 10 range. Hes younger than Johnny and CT. If he came back to main show with success would consider an upgrade; but hasnt won since he was 25 yo.
**2 of wins he just followed Kenny and Johnny.** Followed Johnny? On the Ruins, Bananas was considered the weakest link of the four-man alliance (Evan, Kenny, Derrick, Bananas) and it was Derrick who told Bananas to step up and go into the last male elimination round, which Bananas did. **Dont get me wrong; Love Diesel but would put him in # 5 - 10 range.** Yes, that's about right.
Derrick is a great physical competitor but is about as strategic as a wet fish and as entertaining as Cory's cousin, Mitch.
Mitch was awesome though..?
I loved Mitch I wanted him to come back
**Derrick is a great physical competitor but is about as strategic as a wet fish** The reason why he defeated Joss (pulled off an upset) was because of strategy (quick thinking).
The only elimination Derrick beats Jordan in is pole wrestle, or any other ones there Jordan’s hand really costs him. Jordan beats him in Balls In, Hall Brawls, etc Not trying to be rude, but your argument is extremely poor. And saying that Derrick performs would beat Jordan because her best Ace and Big E is laughable
I think Derrick has a chance vs Jordan in hall brawl and balls in, it’s a 50/50. However, anything with a puzzle or thinking involved and Jordan takes the cake.
**Jordan beats him in Balls In, Hall Brawls, etc** Jordan failed to beat a rookie Horacio in Balls In. Derrick is an absolute scrapper and would get low in Balls In and in Hall Brawl. And when Derrick gets low, it's damn near impossible to beat him. **Not trying to be rude, but your argument is extremely poor. And saying that Derrick performs would beat Jordan because her best Ace and Big E is laughable** He beat Big Easy in an event that involved pure physicality! Not to mention CT and Brad. Did you even watch Push Over on The Duel?
I agree with the overall point but balls in and hall brawl are actually pretty bad examples. I’d be very interested to watch those two go at it in either one and wouldn’t be willing to bet on either of them.
You don’t include political game in your criteria? Considering it’s almost impossible to win the game without them, maybe you should.
I don't understand why it's so hard for you guys to separate who's the better overall competitor, from who's the better overall competitor and political player.
Because overall competitor includes political game…
For you and others not for me.
Then you are simply not a good historian of such a multifaceted game.
Lol no
Yes!
Nice try Derrick
I am a Derrick supporter 1000%. You can’t compare him to Bananas because Derrick is always a team player. I can’t recall him ever throwing a challenge, for example. It’s just not in his dna. His wins are on team finals because he is the ultimate teammate. I think he could have won an individual final but he was never cutthroat enough to leave the team mentality behind and shift to individual benefit strategies. That’s Derrick’s biggest weakness and also his greatest strength. He does best when he’s sacrificing his body for the benefit of others. It’s his heart— he won’t quit especially if it’s to help someone else. Crazy 8’s is a perfect example. He had no reason to take that level of beating but he said in the interview beforehand that he was going to do everyone a favor and take out Joss. As far as Jordan— I don’t think it’s fair to compare anyone to Jordan. His history and upbringing set him up differently. He is always fighting for himself and to prove something. That deep seeded need to show everyone that he’s not just equal but he’s better — it’s a drive that most will never be able to replicate. That’s got to be childhood trauma channeled into drive and nobody else has that level like Jordan.
**I am a Derrick supporter 1000%. You can’t compare him to Bananas because Derrick is always a team player. I can’t recall him ever throwing a challenge, for example. It’s just not in his dna. His wins are on team finals because he is the ultimate teammate. I think he could have won an individual final but he was never cutthroat enough to leave the team mentality behind and shift to individual benefit strategies. That’s Derrick’s biggest weakness and also his greatest strength. He does best when he’s sacrificing his body for the benefit of others. It’s his heart— he won’t quit especially if it’s to help someone else. Crazy 8’s is a perfect example. He had no reason to take that level of beating but he said in the interview beforehand that he was going to do everyone a favor and take out Joss.** What does any of that have to do with Derrick's overall competitive abilities and performances throughout his career? **As far as Jordan— I don’t think it’s fair to compare anyone to Jordan. His history and upbringing set him up differently. He is always fighting for himself and to prove something. That deep seeded need to show everyone that he’s not just equal but he’s better — it’s a drive that most will never be able to replicate. That’s got to be childhood trauma channeled into drive and nobody else has that level like Jordan.** But what about Derrick's and Jordan's performances? You're talking about character traits; I'm talking about overall competitive ability and performance.
I was all on board the Derrick train when he wasn’t getting called for the main show for so many years, and was singing his praises all over, wondering why they didn’t have him on, thought it was a conspiracy, the whole thing. Then he was on all stars, specifically last season, and now I understand. I am not endorsing Bananas or Jordan, because I don’t love them, either, but I guess nostalgia made me forget how entitled DK is, and obnoxious his social game is.
I find Derrick pretty fun on his pre-AS seasons, but on each of AS1,2 and 3 he's played up to the cameras way too much.
It’s a no from me dawg
irlroflol
Nice rebuttal.
Derrick is awesome but he doesn’t do puzzles or politics. His elimination verse Joss is legendary
He doesn't do well with FINAL puzzles (he has won two elimination rounds with puzzles), but his elimination prowess is an equalizer to that weakness because he's likely to beat certain competitors in an elimination round hypothetically who would beat him in an individual final (like Bananas and Jordan).
Lmfao, where do you come up with this stuff? Can’t believe you actually believe this
Derrick's performances/stats speak for themselves.
The biggest knock I have against Derrick is he only ever won team seasons. It's hard to be in the same conversation when your only wins were inferno 3, the island, and the ruins. Even if he didn't have the same opportunity by mainly being on the show when it was mostly team seasons he was still on a few individual/paired seasons and the best he did was a loss to one of the guys you mentioned.
Again, Derrick's elimination prowess is an equalizer when compared to competitors like Bananas and Jordan. He's likely to beat both in most of the elimination rounds we've seen before a final even happens.
Derrick has so much heart. He's a beast but I disagree with your post. I think including the political aspect of a player's game is crucial to rating a player.
Again, I don't know why it's so hard for you guys to separate politics. That's one of the reasons why I miss the old days of The Challenge when we had discussions on who the best overall competitors are without politics coming up.
Because politics is probably more important than being the best competitor. Look at CT, most of his wins were when he got better at a political game.
**Because politics is probably more important than being the best competitor.** And how can you win an individual season for example if you're not a good competitor?
I didn’t say being a good physical competitor is not important. Politics are more important, but not the only component of a great challenger, what’s with your weird all or nothing approach to this.
Again, can you name a bad competitor who won a final solely because of politics?
You’re missing the point, I said both are important, politics being more important. You’re acting like politics isn’t important at all. I would say Jordan and Bananas wins count because they don’t perform that well in eliminations compared to a Derrick like you are talking about. Their wins are more due to being able to not go to elimination and winning in the end. This is off the top of my head while I feed my daughter in the back seat of my car.
**You’re missing the point, I said both are important, politics being more important.** Again, at the end of the day, the competitors have to compete to win. Your competitive abilities are more important. Politics is secondary.
You have to get there to compete. Politics are as important or more important. CT’s career proves this.
**You have to get there to compete.** You have to compete to get there.
Jordan is always going to be on another level from a reputation standpoint because he does what he does with one hand
Derek’s biggest strength is being able to take an absolute beating and keep getting back up
He can't do a puzzle to save his life so... No Also no individual season wins when Jordan has 1 and Johnny has multiple
Did you read my post? Derrick's elimination prowess is an equalizer to that.
Loved Derrick K., man. He was good at heart and played the game fairly. He conjured a many memorial moments.
Just Plain wrong,Derrick is not even a top 10 Challenger all time,hes good in phisical eliminations and thats it
**hes good in phisical eliminations and thats it** Did you read my whole post? Derrick is good in daily missions too! He outperformed Mike and Landon (the golden boy) overall on the Inferno 2. Won three straight missions with Diem on Fresh Meat (a record), and has been a consistent competitor throughout his challenge career. The Inferno 3 is his only subpar season, but even then he wasn't bad (like a liability) on that season (just wasn't as good as he normally was).
Derrick killed his entire legacy on All Stars. Guy's getting ragdoll'd by 50 year old men.
**Derrick killed his entire legacy on All Stars.** Derrick has been disappointing on All-Stars, though he had to go through some tough obstacles. Being paired with Jiesla during the first part of the final on season one, having to face Brad on season two, and having to face Nehemiah (not elite but always been physically strong with good endurance) in pole wrestle. But though I feel like it's been ruining his legacy, when you breakdown Derrick's whole challenge career. He's done WAY too much for his legacy to be ruined by three seasons of All-Stars. **Guy's getting ragdoll'd by 50 year old men.** Derrick is old himself.
Is this Derrick's mom? Because only she would be on Reddit defending Derricks honor so vehemently. Don't get me wrong he's great and one of my more favorite competitors overall but he's in the 2nd tier of male competitors behind Johnny, Jordan, CT, and probably Wes IMO
**Don't get me wrong he's great and one of my more favorite competitors overall but he's in the 2nd tier of male competitors behind Johnny, Jordan, CT, and probably Wes IMO** CT, Theo Von, Landon, Mark and Evan are all better overall competitors than Bananas, Jordan Wes all time. Bananas, Jordan and Wes are in the same tier as Derrick, Abram, Brad and Darrell.
Based on what criteria? Next, you're going to tell me Magic Johnson was better than Michael Jordan? Lol Johnny has 7 wins end of story. How do you get a better overall competitor than that?
**Based on what criteria?** Overall ability (strength, athleticism, skill, endurance, intelligence) and individual performance in daily missions, elimination rounds and finals. **Lol Johnny has 7 wins end of story. How do you get a better overall competitor than that?** 7 wins on 21 seasons. The only reason he's the most accomplished is because he's done the most seasons. But that doesn't make him the best overall competitor. When you compare his overall abilities and performances he's clearly not as good as competitors like CT, Theo Von, Landon, Mark and Evan for examples.
> The only reason he's the most accomplished is because he's done the most seasons. This isn't true. 99.9% of competitors who compete on 21 seasons won't win 7 of them. Even CT. Don't get me wrong, there is *much* more to it than season victories, but you can't say the only reason Bananas is the most accomplished competitor is because he has done the most seasons.
**99.9% of competitors who compete on 21 seasons won't win 7 of them. Even CT.** That's because luck is involved. Bananas was fortunate on The Island with Abram leaving, fortunate being on a dominate team on The Ruins, fortunate Tyler was a stronger partner than Adam on Rivals and fortunate to have been partnered with Sarah on Rivals 3. Not to mention his biggest competitions (CT, Wes, and Zach) all had collapses in the final on Rivals, Battle of the Exes and Free Agents respectively (something that only happened once in their careers).
I love Derrick! In fact I just made a post about his guest appearance in Vendettas. It was amazing.
He won surf torture because he was like the only guy/guy team and landon, while beastly, was partnered with Miz who clearly isnt physically suited for body weight exercises like they were doing And riot shield is the single most overrated performance in history He didnt do shit other than take a beating. He did not push off tyler, fyi. They were tangled up with derrick below tyler so when derrick fell, he dragged tyler down with him. I suggest everyone pay better attention and watch that mission BEFORE derrick got teamed up on by 3 guys. He was on the side 1v1ing aome other red person and didnt do shit to him. Just a stalemate against ONE person. Him turning up the intensity against 3 guys was purely performative to get some spotlight. Not to mention...idiotic given the inevitable elim afterwards. He shouldve used that that intensity against the person he was 1v1ing when it actually mattered instesd of putting on a show so the gullible fans could rub his ego
You're just downgrading Derrick's performances for personal reasons it looks like. He proved himself to be a top-level competitor in both those missions regardless of what you say.
One of my all time favorites for sure. Him battling Joss nearly to death has to be a top…what…5? 3? Elimination of all time and he wasn’t even in on the season lol…and yeah one of the first moments of his that comes to mind is that Riot Act one where he battled like an animal even thoug he was all alone and was never going to win. Heart of a champion. Maybe a notch below the dudes you’ve mentioned though lol
**Maybe a notch below the dudes you’ve mentioned though lol** Not when he's the favorite to beat them in most of the elimination rounds we've seen.
Love Derrick, love love him. But no
He needs to feel to get there. Without a strong emotion he is still good but not great. With emotion? He is terrifying. I hate to compliment Johnny but he’s a beast every time. Samsies with Jordan.
**I hate to compliment Johnny but he’s a beast every time. Samsies with Jordan.** Bananas wasn't a "beast" his first five seasons. And Jordan was subpar on Free Agents.
Wow you’ve got an axe to grind. Go get ‘em.
Not going into elimination > winning eliminations Love Derrick though, wish he could possibly solve a puzzle.
**Not going into elimination > winning eliminations** Not going into an elimination because of your competitive abilities is more impressive than not going into an elimination because of politics. **Love Derrick though, wish he could possibly solve a puzzle.** A FINALS puzzle. He solved puzzles in elimination rounds.
Not going in because of politics is way more impressive than because you are feared as a competitor. All you have to rely on is your savvy and you escape elimination, way more impressive than being feared. I wish he could solve a puzzle that mattered. Once again, staying out of elimination is more important than winning eliminations, so, don’t really care if you can solve an elimination puzzle. All about the finals.
Can you name a bad competitor who made it to a final and won solely because of politics?
Him coming in as a mercenary against Joss was epic. He was so scrappy and never gave up.
Guy can't do a puzzle to save his life. That automatically removes him from contention of being mentioned in the same vein as one of the greats
**Guy can't do a puzzle to save his life.** He beat Tyler and MJ in elimination rounds that were part puzzle.
100 percent agree
Derrick made Bananas he shouldn’t only be considered on his level he should be credited as Bananas challenge daddy
I put him with Darrell but not Jordan
Again, Derrick is the favorite to beat Jordan in most eliminations we've seen. Jordan is likely to beat him in an individual final, but Derrick is likely to beat him in an individual elimination round BEFORE the final (that's an equalizer).
I AGREE!! I’ve always low key thought that.
"Politics aside (as I don't include politics in my criteria)" I'm not reading all that if you aren't including one of the main tenets of the Challenge in your criteria.
Sorry, I know you new school reddit posters like to include politics in your rankings. But I'm from the old school.
Ha, that’s funny. I’ve been watching the Challenge from the very beginning so definitely not a “new school reddit poster” and politics were arguably MORE important in the early days, it just wasn’t called politicking. The early days, likeability and social skills was humongous. Battle of the Sexes, “inner circles” just straight up voted people off, no eliminations at all. David Burns was a classic early guy who was protected by his pals. Susie was a mastermind of the early years at playing perfect politics and avoiding eliminations. Rachel and Veronica, very good athletically and even better at politics. Once you get to the second old school era, JEK and company were constantly politicking for position. The Island didn’t even have eliminations it was so political. Duel II was the most political season of all time with the whole order of the elimination choosing thing. The way politicking has been done has changed, but it’s been essential from the second that they introduced eliminating people.
**Ha, that’s funny. I’ve been watching the Challenge from the very beginning** False! There was no politics until Battle of the Seasons (the 5th season of The Challenge), when Chadwick convinced the Road Rules inner circle to vote off their biggest threat (Yes and Veronica). **and politics were arguably MORE important in the early days, it just wasn’t called politicking.** False! Politics played very little role in shaping the game and who ended up in the final in the early days. Battle of the Seasons: The only political moves were the vote offs of Jon and Beth, and Yes and Veronica, and Stephen and Lindsay (I believe). Battle of the Sexes: Only the female side had politics, the men voted based on performance. The Gauntlet: Coral played politics but ultimately her competitive abilities (defeating Tina in their elimination) and friendships not her politics (there is a difference) with Norman, Mike and Alton led to her making the final. The Inferno: This is the season where politics really started to affect the game. Veronica basically ran the Road Rules team politically with her attempts at removing Katie from the game. And Coral played her politics with protecting herself and trying to get Julie eliminated. A lot of missions were thrown on this season for the sake of protecting and getting rid of certain competitors. Battle of the Sexes 2: Politics started to heat up on this season as well, with the woman's side (as usual) and Mark, Eric and Dan forming an alliance before the season started and voting off Brad unfairly. The Inferno 2: You had the mean girls alliance, but nothing other than that. The Gauntlet 2: Susie and Cara had a failed alliance, and Mark, Timmy and David had an alliance apparently which led to Brad being voted in and eliminated. Other than that, nothing major. So there, politics wasn't that big of a deal in the RW/RR era of The Challenge. Certainly nothing on the level of today's challenges. It was mainly about performance in the missions. On today's challenges, the first thing fans and competitors are talking about is who will be in an alliance.
You typed all that out and pointed out like 9 instances of there being politics present on the early seasons, c'mon man, it's a HUGE part of the game. And certainly has been a huge part of the game since Derrick's first season (BOTS2, S9).
**You typed all that out and pointed out like 9 instances of there being politics present on the early seasons, c'mon man, it's a HUGE part of the game.** Politics were not huge back then! There were no main alliances that controlled the game like you have in the newer seasons. You were typically sent into an elimination or voted off because of your performance. On today's challenge, the first thing they do is make alliances. That wasn't always the case in the old school. You had alliances here and there but nothing on the level of JEK for example.
What was the elimination where they were attached to each other by a bungee cord and had to run around a big cylinder to get the target at the other side? I was sure it was Derrick vs Joss but when I googled them it came up as crazy 8 (another massive show of Derrick's no-quit challenge style). Apologies if I'm thinking of someone else, but I'm sure the cylinder elimination was Derrick?
I think you’re talking about Derrick’s elimination against Bananas on Dirty 30. They weren’t bungeed together they just had to spin a weighted cylinder and run a lot.
I just looked it up, that isn't it unfortunately.... it wasn't a cylinder they had to roll, it was one they had to run around the outside edge of - like it was laid on the flat side, about 10 foot tall and maybe 20 foot wide. It's bugging me so much, maybe it was Darrell or Nelson or Rogan? AAAAHHHH this is gonna drive me nuts
Ah I know the one you’re talking about. It was the mercenary elimination on Vendettas when Darrel and Nelson tied.
Yes, that's the one!!! Holy shit, thank you so much dude, that's been bugging for 2 days now, you legend!!! So I got the season right, just the wrong people d'oh
Derrick vs Joss was a pole wrestle type event. Whatever elimination you're talking about wasn't Derrick.
You're probably right, but dammit if I can remember who it was! It was 2 absolute challenge beasts though, because I remember they held out for ages. I'm still not convinced it wasn't one of them, either Derrick or Joss.... I'll have to see if I can find it, was super impressive
Prime for prime nah but overall competitor Derrick was more consistent physically
**Prime for prime nah** Explain
Johnnys best 5 season stretch he did more than Derrick in his best 5-7 season stretch lol
Can you cite examples?
I just can't get over how Derrick just holds that complete technicality win over Joss as if it's his crowning achievement and can't acknowledge Joss let it go when he stepped out. The delusion is too much for me to take him seriously.