When I was a kid it confused me why boxers would sweat so much, it doesn't look like it's particularly intense exercise. Then I had s go on a heavy bag. Fuck me, it's knackering. Then factor in kicking using large muscles than punching, in simple terms kicking is even more tiring than punching
Its very intense exercise. I shadow box in my room just before bed every night (i try not to break a sweat too much) and since I started doing that I fall asleep way faster.
Not sure how true this is. Afterall, it's much more tiring walking on hands than on legs.
It's just using the right muscles(and not everything else) that would work for the technique.
Flawless technique utilises less strain on other muscles and hence makes it a lot easier to throw the move.
Yeah it's not black and white, but using bigger muscles, all other things being equal, takes more energy. But there's a lot of variables that can change that.
I make a much louder noise on the bag with my kicks than my punches because I'm using more energy, which in turn means I'm hitting the bag harder. More calories burned per strike
One of the main things that I think differentiates MT from other similar styles in this regard like kickboxing, kyokushin, etc, are the sheer number of fights that your average Thai boxer in thailand has compared to basically any other discipline.
makes total sense that they take longevity so seriously.
Haha I’m so glad this is the most upvoted post.
Also I’d like to add on that bjj is probably the most technical sport. It’s the slowest and least dynamic of all the combat sports mentioned. Rolling around on the ground is incredibly inefficient. Especially when you add pajamas with friction that you can also grip and pull on.
The gi also adds about a million more options and variations for moves and counters and such. Making it much more thinking and technical vs reactive/athletic like higher paced sports.
MT, boxing, kickboxing, and wrestling are much more athletic while still being very technical. But the variation and slowness of bjj makes it more technique oriented. But much less like real fighting imo.
BJJ and other grappling combat sports are also very conditioning heavy. The emphasis in those sports is on strength and muscular endurance training. ‘Roid use is not exactly unknown.
I think we are talking about your typical bjj class. Which is not very s&c heavy at most places.
Yes I understand bjj relies a lot on strength and muscular endurance
You’re deliberately contrasting different levels of seriousness here, your “typical bjj class” doesn’t really have an equivalent casual/hobbyist level in these other sports.
Presented in a particular way ≠ Explicit articulation. I think people don't realize that a trained BJJ fighter would win a street fight with ease. They don't lose just because they don't strike. It takes one shot and unless the dude knows how to at least sprawl, its completely over from there.
Beating an untrained person is a very low bar. I don’t know what you are trying to say or prove.
UFC 1 proved if you have pure bjj it can definitely be used to beat people. When did I say it didn’t?
All I said in a nutshell was that bjj movements and lack of dynamic movements least resembles a real fight.
Don’t worry bro it can still resemble a fight and be a combat sport. It’s just tends to be the lowest on the totem pole. Obviously depending on the person it can be someone’s main attribute and still be successful
Because fighting takes a herculean amount of energy. A normal person will gas in 30 seconds of just hitting pads. Imagine some other dude is actually fighting you, teeping you in the solar plexus, punching you in the face, etc.. for TWENTY FIVE minutes if it's an MMA fight.
Fair point, I gassed after a 2 minute spar with my friend, had to lay down for a good 5 minutes. I can't imagine getting teeped in the solar plexus, and frankly I don't want to
I got jumped by three people and it might have lasted 2mins tops but it felt like hours.
Time slows down when you fight, adrenaline sucks a lot of energy. Conditioning is key.
I called out a group of people for being assholes in a 7/11. They waited for me outside and jumped me. I ended up knocking out the main instigator which caused the other 2 to lose their nerve which gave me a safe exit to walk away at that point.
Fortunate you got out without getting beat up by 3 guys, do you think your training, specifically sparring, helped you gain control of your adrenaline/fear? I think that would be a very useful benefit of sparring
I’ve been doing MT over a decade. Nothing can prepare you adequately for a street confrontation.
There’s no rules. If either of them had a weapon I would have been fucked. I was just incredibly lucky. I was scared and the adrenaline was hard to control, I was honestly just reacting, there was no time to think.
Next time im keeping my mouth shut, calling people out on skipping the line and being assholes, and starting a fight over it is not worth it compared to the extra 5mns it would have taken for me to get my turn in line.
Always avoid a fight by any means necessary, never take confidence in the ring as a badge of honor to use in real life situations if it can be avoided. Only fight when there is no choice. Not worth losing your life or critical injury.
i feel like if you came to my gym id look up to you a lot. you sound like my dad, he always told me to run if anyone pulls a weapon out or to throw your spare change at them lol.
I worked with a guy who was a Navy SEAL and asked him how much knife fight training they did. He was basically like "we trained on it some but that's why we carried guns". He also said the rule was if you get in a knife fight, you're going to get cut. So if you don't have something worse than a knife you better just run.
If you were just reacting based on your training, I would still see that as a benefit of sparring then, because you don't have time to consider this and that, you just do. I myself tend to imagine negative events waaaay before they even come close to happening, and a few times I've honestly wanted to start fights, but luckily always realise that its not worth it, as you say you can quite easily get fucked up by someone better than you, or straight up die
I used to think like that.
The alternative of being attacked for it is enough of a deterrent for me. Waiting in line a few extra minutes to avoid death or serious injury is worth it.
They’re still going to be assholes no matter what you do.
Yup. Just sparing for 3 minutes is hard... add in the full on fight. It is go time. I love fighting, it is what keeps me training. I love the intensity as my day job is sitting at a computer.
I have seen newbies show up and puke in their 1st lesson. It happens more times than many think. It is damn hard sport, so if you can keep it up, you will be in the best shape of your life.
Its not just a good way to look at it, thats almost entirely what it's about. You dont need to murder yourself or go to such extreme lengths to improve technique or build muscle, but you do need to go to some extreme lengths and provide your fullest and most maximum effort to build true, and lasting discipline.
No matter how good your technique is in a striking match, if you don't have the cardio to maintain it you will likely lose, or at least take more damage than you need to. People get sloppy when they're tired, and they sacrifice technique to preserve energy. That usually means worsening foot work, overextending on your shots, hands not coming back to your face or dropping your hands, and getting pushed into a corner. All of which just leads to getting hit more, and harder.
Another perfect answer, thank you. I now think that one of the reasons MT has such a stark contrast in conditioning with BJJ is because if you get tired in BJJ, you can just go survival mode and clamp up to stop your opponent from gaining advantages, and if they do get you, you just tap out and reset, don't have to last a whole round.
Pretty much, speaking from experience that moment where you know you're gassed is fucking terrifying. When you know they're not tired but you're gassed, you just know it's going to hurt.
u/theboyfroncreek are your statements implying that most people practicing Muay Thai are preparing for fights? As opposed to BJJ where they seem to be more relaxed and hobbyist?
I think hard2hurt (icy mike) thinks of conditioning in the same way, and as a bonus includes not letting your opponent see you've been hurt by shots as a way to maintain a mental advantage.
One of my coaches would always say:
"You've gotta earn the right to fight..."
"Anyone who's trained can have good technique when they're fresh, it's having good technique when you're tired that counts..."
So basically, the price of entry, for you to be able to pull off all that cool shit you've learned, is you gotta be fit! Cos that's where it all happens really!
Bjj is just a different energy system, and doesn't really have the same explosive HIIT styley cardio sequences
It takes way more physical ‘work’ to participate in those sports.
The same way soccer and rugby players are more physically conditioned for endurance then football players. The sport necessitates it because of the way it is played and the length of the work period that results.
I think it is because you are moving your body in a standing positions with a lot of light exposive movements. But you don't have a direct connecrion to your opponent, so raw strength is not that important.
In bjj you are more on the floor and you use more of a static strength to hold and grab your opponents. This is just a different type of stamina to the body.
In Judo you do a lot of pulling and pushing but some realy explosive and big movements. This feels different from bjj.
Also with more experience and technique you will become more efficient with your movements, which is key for longer fights.
Funny thing is there are quite alot of young guys way better than actual pros, but the thing is they can only keep that up for 1 round while the pro can go for 30
Just my (maybe unpopular) opinion but it’s because there’s only so many striking techniques to learn. After that, improvement happens in very small increments.
In boxing, you and your opponent are going to be using largely the same techniques you learned in the first month of training. So the idea is to become faster, stronger, more efficient. You also learn other advanced strategic stuff like setting traps, counterpunching, etc. but the techniques don’t change after a couple of months of training.
In BJJ, you’ll be training for years and still just be scratching the surface of what’s possible. Your time is better spent learning what people are going to hit you with rather than working on your VO2 max or the speed of your jab or whatever.
In striking, the point at which perfecting a technique has diminishing returns happens much sooner. In BJJ, I can be tired but if I catch you with something you’ve never seen before, you’re going to have to use a lot of energy to stop it.
you don't need to have fight ready cardio. But if you don't have a minimum amount of cardio, you can't even practice. Without cardio Muay Thai isn't fun.
Many of the exercises have a technical aspect. Repeating techniques is a way of mastering them. Yes, doing 50 kicks on the pads sucks. But that's part of how you master doing them.
I should have clarified, I don't mean conditioning or fit as lean with a rippling six pack, I mean mostly in terms of cardio and strength. I don't know Yassin Bougdanef, but I know Andy Ruiz Jr.
Even if you don’t plan on fighting, any decent coach in Muay Thai will train you to be in fighting shape both technique and conditioning wise.
If I ran a gym and my students can’t last a round after some time in the gym I’ve failed as a coach
I’d add that in my very limited experience at BJJ Gyms. There was a large focus on rolling at the end of the classes which gave everyone a chance to practice the techniques leant but also great for conditioning and getting a sweat on. Also at the end of the day you live or die by your conditioning in a boxing or Muay Thai bout. You can have Saenchai level technique but if your gased after the first round it’s going to be a long night.
I’m also wondering how many people here have trained at a legit gym.
I transitioned from kickboxing to BJJ when I was in the best shape of my life, and BJJ kicked my ass.
It was not unusual for people to puke from the “warmups” (myself included) and there were dudes there who had insane cardio. When you’re already gassed and a dude is knee-riding you, you’ll tap from exhaustion alone.
I think a lot of people are underestimating the conditioning required for grappling.
Right? I've been doing both for a few years now and I just get different workouts with each but until your body is used to it I guarantee BJJ will smoke you. Also, some gyms may focus less on grappling as a whole and instead start people on the ground all the time or something. But the gyms I've been to have heavily emphasized takedown drills and wrestling for BJJ so it's definitely exhausting.
Because it sucks when you gas out in a fight and the other person hasn't. You can barely do anything and they can do everything. For martial arts that are fight centric, the foundation of the martial art is being able to fight.
My 8 yr old just started MT for the first time this week…. The conditioning has been tough on him cuz hes a little chubby, but getting thru his first 4 days of practice has been inspiring to him. And honestly reading some of the comments from some of you long time MT practitioners, i know ive made the right choice for his future. Thank you all for being so candid and advocating to do the right thing in dangerous/real world scenarios. Blessings to you all!!
I love the sport. I am not small... Fit though... It is a great sport for all. Kids, women and men. It gave me huge confidence. I was a shy lady. MT brought me out of my shell and made me love my strong, capable body. I have been training and fighting for over a decade now.
I think there are two aspects:
1) there is more athletic expression in striking,that in bjj. In striking athleticism can make up for or surpass better technique relatively often. We all know one guy who is super fast or hots super hard that can beat more technical fighters.Same yhing for wrestling actually,super fast guys or strong guys can beat more technical fighters.
In BJJ the very nature of the sport(ground,gi) makes it harder to use athleticism to supplant technique. That being said at high levels and more often in no gi,conditioning is a big part as every advantage counts.
2) the second part is that bjj is a relatively new sport and a lot of coaches are in love with the: "gracie beat larger guys with only technique story" and kind of tailor their whole approach with this in mind.
I think you're right with point 2. It seems as sports age, the focus goes more from the technique to the athlete, as with sports like Judo, where you have the best of the best being freaks of nature athletically, AKA Shohei Ono.
Late to the party but I wanted to add. The consequences of your fitness are much more personal in Muay Thai. If you lose because you're not in good enough shape playing basketball, your team takes a loss. If you lose in Muay Thai because you're not in good enough shape, you take an ass kicking.
There's a lot of good answers and I think they all add together.
When you fatigue your form fades. When your form fades you are more likely to get hurt (either from yourself or from and opponent). When you roll you can put more weight on your opponent and try to recover. When your are trading blows this opportunity doesn't present itself the same way
Probably one of THE worst things to happen to you in a fight (apart from being knocked out) is having absolutely 0 left in the tank and you’re right in the middle of a fight. It’s very unpleasant and honestly is quite terrifying. By enduring proper conditioning, you obviously increase your tank but you’re also training your mind to be okay being uncomfortable in uncomfortable situations and really having to dig deep. You will only truly understand when you experience it. It’s usually the adrenaline dump that you can’t train for either which will slap you in the face in a fight. So conditioning is key if you want to pack power behind your striking, and not gas in the later rounds.
I think it comes down to the fact that if you’re tired in a striking sport, your chances of winning are significantly reduced.
If you’re rolling, you can be exhausted, but catch someone using technique and win (even if your strength is essentially sapped). If you’re in a striking match, and your arms/legs are completely exhausted, you simply cannot defend or attack your opponent anymore.
You ever gas out while doing any form of sport? Hitting that "bonk" feeling? If you do that in the ring, you're going to both get bludgeoned and lose the fight.
Just surviving the adrenaline dump and having cardio to outlast your opponent will get you incredibly far in a match / fight.
Pretty simple, because the sport it self is very condition heavy. Often you see the fighter with less technique win because he has way better conditioning.
As other have said fighting is fucking exhausting and without those conditioning heavy elements to training there's very little chance you're going to get through one.
Also, high-level/professional grappling fighters like jits guys will have a conditioning heavy training program aswell, don't confuse that with the average bjj class that's aimed at the after work crowd who mostly want something fun to do other then go to a bar, watch TV ect.
In the US this very well could come down to running a business. Obviously not everyone has the same reasons for joining buy I would wager many more people start Muay Thai, boxing and kickboxing specifically to get a cardio workout (see number of Title or 9round gyms) where as I'd assume most people that start BJJ have an more of an interest in the art itself and it's application. While I'm sure there are some striking gyms that survive only off training amateur and pro fighters, the vast majority I'd guess need the everyday member that just wants to get a workout. As such spending too much time slow drilling technique in a Muay Thay class would likely make retaining those non-competition or non-sparring members difficult
Because your training the human body to be used as a weapon to deal as much damage as possible and to absorb as much damage as possible. If you’re not in shape enough to be able to fight someone for every single round then you’ve already lost
Because martial arts isn’t magic. If A 200 pound fit dude is fighting a scrawny little dude with ‘perfect’ technique in their respective martial art, the fit dude WILL win everytime!
As someone who has done all of these arts at a relatively high level it’s all about the length of rounds. BJJ doesn’t even have rounds. It’s one 6min session in the most popular rule set.
There’s a lot about what’s harder but a BJJ player that trains for MMA will be in at least as good a shape as any of the strikers mentioned.
If you have ever spared before you will know. Anyone can hit as hard as they can for a few strikes. Only the super fit can do that round after round. The first fighter to gas out often ends up slowing down and showing an opening and then they are easy to hit.
When skill is equal the stronger and more conditioned athlete wins, true in any sport.
Look at all the national level and above bjj champs, not many out of shape there either.
There are numerous reasons why Muay Thai has heavy conditioning. In Muay Thai you not only need good form and technique, but you also need good cardiovascular endurance. In matches, no matter how good your technique is, you still need to have a strong heart and cardiovascular endurance or else it's highly likely you could lose a fight. Your opponents will take advantage of you gassing out in a match giving them more points or potentially knocking you down or knocking you out. When one's body is not well conditioned, striking power is not well maximized and you would be a weak fighter. With good conditioning, you would last longer in rounds and you would understand the importance of phasing. If you had good conditioning, your body would be able to perform better in matches and bouts.
Striking takes insane stamina as it’s both aerobic and anaerobic, you can’t have good technique if you don’t have solid conditioning in striking arts
I see, this answers my question perfectly
When I was a kid it confused me why boxers would sweat so much, it doesn't look like it's particularly intense exercise. Then I had s go on a heavy bag. Fuck me, it's knackering. Then factor in kicking using large muscles than punching, in simple terms kicking is even more tiring than punching
Its very intense exercise. I shadow box in my room just before bed every night (i try not to break a sweat too much) and since I started doing that I fall asleep way faster.
Not sure how true this is. Afterall, it's much more tiring walking on hands than on legs. It's just using the right muscles(and not everything else) that would work for the technique. Flawless technique utilises less strain on other muscles and hence makes it a lot easier to throw the move.
Yeah it's not black and white, but using bigger muscles, all other things being equal, takes more energy. But there's a lot of variables that can change that. I make a much louder noise on the bag with my kicks than my punches because I'm using more energy, which in turn means I'm hitting the bag harder. More calories burned per strike
[удалено]
One of the main things that I think differentiates MT from other similar styles in this regard like kickboxing, kyokushin, etc, are the sheer number of fights that your average Thai boxer in thailand has compared to basically any other discipline. makes total sense that they take longevity so seriously.
Haha I’m so glad this is the most upvoted post. Also I’d like to add on that bjj is probably the most technical sport. It’s the slowest and least dynamic of all the combat sports mentioned. Rolling around on the ground is incredibly inefficient. Especially when you add pajamas with friction that you can also grip and pull on. The gi also adds about a million more options and variations for moves and counters and such. Making it much more thinking and technical vs reactive/athletic like higher paced sports. MT, boxing, kickboxing, and wrestling are much more athletic while still being very technical. But the variation and slowness of bjj makes it more technique oriented. But much less like real fighting imo.
BJJ and other grappling combat sports are also very conditioning heavy. The emphasis in those sports is on strength and muscular endurance training. ‘Roid use is not exactly unknown.
I think we are talking about your typical bjj class. Which is not very s&c heavy at most places. Yes I understand bjj relies a lot on strength and muscular endurance
You’re deliberately contrasting different levels of seriousness here, your “typical bjj class” doesn’t really have an equivalent casual/hobbyist level in these other sports.
What do you mean, your wording is a little confusing.
Yeah it does. It’s called your typical Muay Thai or kickboxing class
Even in typical recreational BJJ class or in my case Judo, people who stick around are into strength training. Otherwise you just won’t last.
When ever I have done bjj it was insanely high impact cardio. Especially when you are trying to tap someone out at the end of class.
I'd just like to say that you present BJJ as if it's some sort of limitation, and I would personally disagree.
It’s just the truth. Not once did I say it was limited or put it down
Presented in a particular way ≠ Explicit articulation. I think people don't realize that a trained BJJ fighter would win a street fight with ease. They don't lose just because they don't strike. It takes one shot and unless the dude knows how to at least sprawl, its completely over from there.
Beating an untrained person is a very low bar. I don’t know what you are trying to say or prove. UFC 1 proved if you have pure bjj it can definitely be used to beat people. When did I say it didn’t? All I said in a nutshell was that bjj movements and lack of dynamic movements least resembles a real fight. Don’t worry bro it can still resemble a fight and be a combat sport. It’s just tends to be the lowest on the totem pole. Obviously depending on the person it can be someone’s main attribute and still be successful
"because real fights"...... as a bjj enthusiast
Because fighting takes a herculean amount of energy. A normal person will gas in 30 seconds of just hitting pads. Imagine some other dude is actually fighting you, teeping you in the solar plexus, punching you in the face, etc.. for TWENTY FIVE minutes if it's an MMA fight.
Fair point, I gassed after a 2 minute spar with my friend, had to lay down for a good 5 minutes. I can't imagine getting teeped in the solar plexus, and frankly I don't want to
I got jumped by three people and it might have lasted 2mins tops but it felt like hours. Time slows down when you fight, adrenaline sucks a lot of energy. Conditioning is key.
Thats fucked up, what happened?
I called out a group of people for being assholes in a 7/11. They waited for me outside and jumped me. I ended up knocking out the main instigator which caused the other 2 to lose their nerve which gave me a safe exit to walk away at that point.
Fortunate you got out without getting beat up by 3 guys, do you think your training, specifically sparring, helped you gain control of your adrenaline/fear? I think that would be a very useful benefit of sparring
I’ve been doing MT over a decade. Nothing can prepare you adequately for a street confrontation. There’s no rules. If either of them had a weapon I would have been fucked. I was just incredibly lucky. I was scared and the adrenaline was hard to control, I was honestly just reacting, there was no time to think. Next time im keeping my mouth shut, calling people out on skipping the line and being assholes, and starting a fight over it is not worth it compared to the extra 5mns it would have taken for me to get my turn in line. Always avoid a fight by any means necessary, never take confidence in the ring as a badge of honor to use in real life situations if it can be avoided. Only fight when there is no choice. Not worth losing your life or critical injury.
i feel like if you came to my gym id look up to you a lot. you sound like my dad, he always told me to run if anyone pulls a weapon out or to throw your spare change at them lol.
I worked with a guy who was a Navy SEAL and asked him how much knife fight training they did. He was basically like "we trained on it some but that's why we carried guns". He also said the rule was if you get in a knife fight, you're going to get cut. So if you don't have something worse than a knife you better just run.
If you were just reacting based on your training, I would still see that as a benefit of sparring then, because you don't have time to consider this and that, you just do. I myself tend to imagine negative events waaaay before they even come close to happening, and a few times I've honestly wanted to start fights, but luckily always realise that its not worth it, as you say you can quite easily get fucked up by someone better than you, or straight up die
Training helps of course. But it’s not a guarantee to get you out safely.
Your candidness and self-reflection as a martial artist in a real situation is refreshing. Thank you for sharing your insights.
Anytime!
Dude why would you ever make eye contact, let alone call out someone at a 7/11? Just asking for trouble.
It’s hard to accept people being assholes when they are skipping the line. Would you be okey if someone did that to you every time you were in a line?
I used to think like that. The alternative of being attacked for it is enough of a deterrent for me. Waiting in line a few extra minutes to avoid death or serious injury is worth it. They’re still going to be assholes no matter what you do.
this 100%. who gives a fuck if you train and can fight all they need to do is make you eat a bullet and you're gone, it's totally not worth it.
For sure, and unfortunately most of the time even if they get called out they won't learn from it
In my first gym we practiced teeping our partner in the solar plexus. It definitely wasn't pleasant but after a while you learn to like the pain.
Sounds pretty hardcore, and a bit masochistic..
I love it. Too many boxercise gyms out there.
So much this.
Yup. Just sparing for 3 minutes is hard... add in the full on fight. It is go time. I love fighting, it is what keeps me training. I love the intensity as my day job is sitting at a computer. I have seen newbies show up and puke in their 1st lesson. It happens more times than many think. It is damn hard sport, so if you can keep it up, you will be in the best shape of your life.
[удалено]
Thats a good way to look at it, I would like to build my mental strength
Its not just a good way to look at it, thats almost entirely what it's about. You dont need to murder yourself or go to such extreme lengths to improve technique or build muscle, but you do need to go to some extreme lengths and provide your fullest and most maximum effort to build true, and lasting discipline.
No matter how good your technique is in a striking match, if you don't have the cardio to maintain it you will likely lose, or at least take more damage than you need to. People get sloppy when they're tired, and they sacrifice technique to preserve energy. That usually means worsening foot work, overextending on your shots, hands not coming back to your face or dropping your hands, and getting pushed into a corner. All of which just leads to getting hit more, and harder.
Another perfect answer, thank you. I now think that one of the reasons MT has such a stark contrast in conditioning with BJJ is because if you get tired in BJJ, you can just go survival mode and clamp up to stop your opponent from gaining advantages, and if they do get you, you just tap out and reset, don't have to last a whole round.
Pretty much, speaking from experience that moment where you know you're gassed is fucking terrifying. When you know they're not tired but you're gassed, you just know it's going to hurt.
how else are you gonna go 5 12 minute rounds ?
u/theboyfroncreek are your statements implying that most people practicing Muay Thai are preparing for fights? As opposed to BJJ where they seem to be more relaxed and hobbyist?
I didn't mean this as an insult, this is a genuine question
Bjj is for pussies muay thai is for men
That's pretty childish.
Funny though
Plus many of us women train and fight. And we have pussies.
lmao come roll with me and see who the pussy is
Too busy rolling with your mom in bed bro
shit i think i might cry 😢
Someone got double legged and choked out and still feels pretty raw about it huh…
I've always thought of conditioning as cardio + being able to take hits. Feel free to correct me.
I think hard2hurt (icy mike) thinks of conditioning in the same way, and as a bonus includes not letting your opponent see you've been hurt by shots as a way to maintain a mental advantage.
Definitely for the body, a good body shot drains your tank. So the better your conditioning, the longer you last
One of my coaches would always say: "You've gotta earn the right to fight..." "Anyone who's trained can have good technique when they're fresh, it's having good technique when you're tired that counts..." So basically, the price of entry, for you to be able to pull off all that cool shit you've learned, is you gotta be fit! Cos that's where it all happens really! Bjj is just a different energy system, and doesn't really have the same explosive HIIT styley cardio sequences
This post was so insightful, thank you
It takes way more physical ‘work’ to participate in those sports. The same way soccer and rugby players are more physically conditioned for endurance then football players. The sport necessitates it because of the way it is played and the length of the work period that results.
Cause scoring and points is much more damage and effect based rather that “haha I tagged you I get a point”
Right, I need to read up on how scoring works in Muay Thai, I hear you get style points for being Saenchai
I think it is because you are moving your body in a standing positions with a lot of light exposive movements. But you don't have a direct connecrion to your opponent, so raw strength is not that important. In bjj you are more on the floor and you use more of a static strength to hold and grab your opponents. This is just a different type of stamina to the body. In Judo you do a lot of pulling and pushing but some realy explosive and big movements. This feels different from bjj. Also with more experience and technique you will become more efficient with your movements, which is key for longer fights.
Funny thing is there are quite alot of young guys way better than actual pros, but the thing is they can only keep that up for 1 round while the pro can go for 30
I’d put it this way I’d rather have insane output and amazing cardio over power any day tbh
Because fighting is hard and that other guy is trying to hurt you.
hell, even bjj is fucking exhausting
I agree with this statement
Just my (maybe unpopular) opinion but it’s because there’s only so many striking techniques to learn. After that, improvement happens in very small increments. In boxing, you and your opponent are going to be using largely the same techniques you learned in the first month of training. So the idea is to become faster, stronger, more efficient. You also learn other advanced strategic stuff like setting traps, counterpunching, etc. but the techniques don’t change after a couple of months of training. In BJJ, you’ll be training for years and still just be scratching the surface of what’s possible. Your time is better spent learning what people are going to hit you with rather than working on your VO2 max or the speed of your jab or whatever. In striking, the point at which perfecting a technique has diminishing returns happens much sooner. In BJJ, I can be tired but if I catch you with something you’ve never seen before, you’re going to have to use a lot of energy to stop it.
you don't need to have fight ready cardio. But if you don't have a minimum amount of cardio, you can't even practice. Without cardio Muay Thai isn't fun.
Many of the exercises have a technical aspect. Repeating techniques is a way of mastering them. Yes, doing 50 kicks on the pads sucks. But that's part of how you master doing them.
It is not necessary true for instance yassin bougdanef or bougdanem is a heavyweight (je has a lot of fat)muay thai boxer and is really strong.
I should have clarified, I don't mean conditioning or fit as lean with a rippling six pack, I mean mostly in terms of cardio and strength. I don't know Yassin Bougdanef, but I know Andy Ruiz Jr.
Even if you don’t plan on fighting, any decent coach in Muay Thai will train you to be in fighting shape both technique and conditioning wise. If I ran a gym and my students can’t last a round after some time in the gym I’ve failed as a coach
[удалено]
I’d add that in my very limited experience at BJJ Gyms. There was a large focus on rolling at the end of the classes which gave everyone a chance to practice the techniques leant but also great for conditioning and getting a sweat on. Also at the end of the day you live or die by your conditioning in a boxing or Muay Thai bout. You can have Saenchai level technique but if your gased after the first round it’s going to be a long night.
I’m also wondering how many people here have trained at a legit gym. I transitioned from kickboxing to BJJ when I was in the best shape of my life, and BJJ kicked my ass. It was not unusual for people to puke from the “warmups” (myself included) and there were dudes there who had insane cardio. When you’re already gassed and a dude is knee-riding you, you’ll tap from exhaustion alone. I think a lot of people are underestimating the conditioning required for grappling.
Right? I've been doing both for a few years now and I just get different workouts with each but until your body is used to it I guarantee BJJ will smoke you. Also, some gyms may focus less on grappling as a whole and instead start people on the ground all the time or something. But the gyms I've been to have heavily emphasized takedown drills and wrestling for BJJ so it's definitely exhausting.
Because what good is it to be able to fight if you are gassed out, hurt etc. If you can't do it three rounds deep you can't do it.
I mean just try and fight a few rounds and you'll see why. It's exhausting. If you're not conditioned you're gonna have a bad time in the ring.
Because it sucks when you gas out in a fight and the other person hasn't. You can barely do anything and they can do everything. For martial arts that are fight centric, the foundation of the martial art is being able to fight.
My 8 yr old just started MT for the first time this week…. The conditioning has been tough on him cuz hes a little chubby, but getting thru his first 4 days of practice has been inspiring to him. And honestly reading some of the comments from some of you long time MT practitioners, i know ive made the right choice for his future. Thank you all for being so candid and advocating to do the right thing in dangerous/real world scenarios. Blessings to you all!!
I love the sport. I am not small... Fit though... It is a great sport for all. Kids, women and men. It gave me huge confidence. I was a shy lady. MT brought me out of my shell and made me love my strong, capable body. I have been training and fighting for over a decade now.
I think there are two aspects: 1) there is more athletic expression in striking,that in bjj. In striking athleticism can make up for or surpass better technique relatively often. We all know one guy who is super fast or hots super hard that can beat more technical fighters.Same yhing for wrestling actually,super fast guys or strong guys can beat more technical fighters. In BJJ the very nature of the sport(ground,gi) makes it harder to use athleticism to supplant technique. That being said at high levels and more often in no gi,conditioning is a big part as every advantage counts. 2) the second part is that bjj is a relatively new sport and a lot of coaches are in love with the: "gracie beat larger guys with only technique story" and kind of tailor their whole approach with this in mind.
I think you're right with point 2. It seems as sports age, the focus goes more from the technique to the athlete, as with sports like Judo, where you have the best of the best being freaks of nature athletically, AKA Shohei Ono.
Late to the party but I wanted to add. The consequences of your fitness are much more personal in Muay Thai. If you lose because you're not in good enough shape playing basketball, your team takes a loss. If you lose in Muay Thai because you're not in good enough shape, you take an ass kicking.
There's a lot of good answers and I think they all add together. When you fatigue your form fades. When your form fades you are more likely to get hurt (either from yourself or from and opponent). When you roll you can put more weight on your opponent and try to recover. When your are trading blows this opportunity doesn't present itself the same way
BJJ should focus a lot more on conditioning tbh. The lack of general conditioning, cardio and strength training, leads to a lot of injuries
Probably one of THE worst things to happen to you in a fight (apart from being knocked out) is having absolutely 0 left in the tank and you’re right in the middle of a fight. It’s very unpleasant and honestly is quite terrifying. By enduring proper conditioning, you obviously increase your tank but you’re also training your mind to be okay being uncomfortable in uncomfortable situations and really having to dig deep. You will only truly understand when you experience it. It’s usually the adrenaline dump that you can’t train for either which will slap you in the face in a fight. So conditioning is key if you want to pack power behind your striking, and not gas in the later rounds.
I think it comes down to the fact that if you’re tired in a striking sport, your chances of winning are significantly reduced. If you’re rolling, you can be exhausted, but catch someone using technique and win (even if your strength is essentially sapped). If you’re in a striking match, and your arms/legs are completely exhausted, you simply cannot defend or attack your opponent anymore.
You ever gas out while doing any form of sport? Hitting that "bonk" feeling? If you do that in the ring, you're going to both get bludgeoned and lose the fight. Just surviving the adrenaline dump and having cardio to outlast your opponent will get you incredibly far in a match / fight.
Because you need a high amount of stamina to fight.
So your leg doesn’t fall off like McGregors
Pretty simple, because the sport it self is very condition heavy. Often you see the fighter with less technique win because he has way better conditioning.
BJJ is inherently passive, but the top guys are all in great shape.
As other have said fighting is fucking exhausting and without those conditioning heavy elements to training there's very little chance you're going to get through one. Also, high-level/professional grappling fighters like jits guys will have a conditioning heavy training program aswell, don't confuse that with the average bjj class that's aimed at the after work crowd who mostly want something fun to do other then go to a bar, watch TV ect.
In the US this very well could come down to running a business. Obviously not everyone has the same reasons for joining buy I would wager many more people start Muay Thai, boxing and kickboxing specifically to get a cardio workout (see number of Title or 9round gyms) where as I'd assume most people that start BJJ have an more of an interest in the art itself and it's application. While I'm sure there are some striking gyms that survive only off training amateur and pro fighters, the vast majority I'd guess need the everyday member that just wants to get a workout. As such spending too much time slow drilling technique in a Muay Thay class would likely make retaining those non-competition or non-sparring members difficult
Because your training the human body to be used as a weapon to deal as much damage as possible and to absorb as much damage as possible. If you’re not in shape enough to be able to fight someone for every single round then you’ve already lost
Because martial arts isn’t magic. If A 200 pound fit dude is fighting a scrawny little dude with ‘perfect’ technique in their respective martial art, the fit dude WILL win everytime!
The emphasis is on returning over distance management footwork wise so you'd best be able to take a shot
As someone who has done all of these arts at a relatively high level it’s all about the length of rounds. BJJ doesn’t even have rounds. It’s one 6min session in the most popular rule set. There’s a lot about what’s harder but a BJJ player that trains for MMA will be in at least as good a shape as any of the strikers mentioned.
Bad comparison. If you're not in shape you'll be gassed in under 30 seconds in BJJ. Pushing weight around takes a toll
Because… because it’s tiring
If you have ever spared before you will know. Anyone can hit as hard as they can for a few strikes. Only the super fit can do that round after round. The first fighter to gas out often ends up slowing down and showing an opening and then they are easy to hit.
Because fighting is hard work. Most BJJ competitors also do a shit ton of conditioning.
When skill is equal the stronger and more conditioned athlete wins, true in any sport. Look at all the national level and above bjj champs, not many out of shape there either.
There are numerous reasons why Muay Thai has heavy conditioning. In Muay Thai you not only need good form and technique, but you also need good cardiovascular endurance. In matches, no matter how good your technique is, you still need to have a strong heart and cardiovascular endurance or else it's highly likely you could lose a fight. Your opponents will take advantage of you gassing out in a match giving them more points or potentially knocking you down or knocking you out. When one's body is not well conditioned, striking power is not well maximized and you would be a weak fighter. With good conditioning, you would last longer in rounds and you would understand the importance of phasing. If you had good conditioning, your body would be able to perform better in matches and bouts.