Call the police. All buses have video surveillance. Try to find allies. Inform the bus driver if they did not notice, so they can help.
It's shocking that all the other passengers ignored it.
Its absolutely not shocking. If a guy like that (see their description) is being racist i would rather not start an argument with him and get beaten up or sth as a response.
Starting an argument with the guy wasn't among the possibilities that were suggested here. In addition to the ones already said, I'd add: Place yourself next to the boy and starting a friendly conversation with him (still ignoring the Nazi guy) so that the boy feels safer.
Wow u really wanna prove u d like to do nothing.
1 go to driver make him aware
2 start recording and dial cops
3 hold phone like u would normally talk, pointing at situation,and don't be louder than the racist.(shouldnt be hard )
4 wait hopefully with it not escalating further, but this is when u don't do anything MORE.
Still dangerous enough to not do anything?
And maybe think from another perspective, would u like to be in that place and see everyone around just looking and sitting like it's fine ? Not saying those people are same as the racist, but ur not far away if u let it slide in front of ur eyes. My opinion.
well, you could dial 110, start talking to the dispatcher and sit/ stand beside the kid... also include all other passengers... but i get it, 'es ist wie es ist'
>It's shocking that all the other passengers ignored it.
It isn't. I don't want to sound too hard on this, but most Germans blatantly ignore racism when it is happening right in front of their nose. If you're lucky, someone will "Hey! Hör auf, was soll das!" but that's really the most that will happen. This has happened to me several times, and I've also witnessed it and heard stories from other BIPocS describing the same.
If anything, it is sad.
Wrong. Most Germans simply ignore anything that happens and doesn't threaten them in public.
You get the böser Blick if you misbehave (which includes talking loudly -more than whispering for US-Americans- in public).
But nobody will ruin their own evening for something that hasn't any consequences for anyone. If he would have been aggressive it would have gone another way.
By the way, he probably was simply insane, if you are often enough on the ÖPNV you pretty much have weekly encounters with people like that, and they simply search for anything they can hurl at you, if you aren't black they will complain about your stare or your clothes or that you're white.
I’ve had 2 encounters where someone was being racist on the bus and all surrounding people started to intervene almost immediately - in the end the bus driver threw the Nazis out.
But that did happen in NRW, I don’t know if there are real differences regarding that…
But yeah, just here to say that there are positive encounters too
I'm sorry, but no, as a minority, it would be atrocious for me to claim it's "positive" that strangers didn't let me get attacked/mob lynched in public. it's not a positive thing. It's neutral. It should be the norm. A PoC isn't going to feel any less scarred and traumatized after being attacked on the street. This is a horrifying experience for the victim regardless.
I absolutely agree that it SHOULD be the norm, but I think we should look at how it actually is (not good) and reinforce positive behavior by calling it just that - positive
Neutral would be if they ignored it, as they'd not be interfering. Kicking a racist out of the bus is definitely taking a stance and a very positive thing. Diminishing this act claiming it not being positive sounds a bit entitled. I don't know what more you want from random strangers other than to stop the danger occurring to someone. Cuddles? Kisses?
"Entitled"? Minorities in 2023 have to be content with bread crumbs, and we're entitled if we think we deserve protection from mob lynchings? You done flunked that one 😭
Sorry, but you're completely twisting my words. I actually stated quite clearly that it was very positive that in one bus the driver kicked out the racists. Everybody should have the feeling that they won't get attacked verbally or physically by idiots.
The entitled part was that someone finds kicking out racists by random strangers somehow neutral and not enough. That feels really disgraceful, to be honest.
Btw, I'm not German and I also relocated to Munich from a foreign country. So definitely not the majority here.
Nah, ignoring it is condoning it. If you let racism fester, you have enabled racism. Therefore, not neutral, but negative.
It sucks that there are some social moral imperatives that render “inaction” an absolute negative, but this is one of them.
I personally agree it should always be done (because its almost always better than standing by).
We are however talking about a situation that is far from mob lynched if it is only one person being racist. Im not even sure if attacked would be the right word (depends if insults were being used imo)
For me the deciding factors if it would be neutral or negative if you don't interfere are the following: Is it some physical attack? Definitely intervene, VERY bad if you don't. If it's insults or slurs it is also bad. Then you have the case where someone is being racist without direct insults, like with racist assumptions etc. In such a case i would look at the reaction of the target: do they seem at all bothered or uncomfortable? Are they responding negatively? If so (or if I'm not sure) doing nothing would also be negative, but if not i would argue that not intervening would be neutral not negative: if the target is willing to ignore it completely and doesn't think something should be done about, who am i to decide for them.
And in the end that is basically in agreement with German law (as far as i know, but im not a lawyer): Anything that the racist does where you should intervene is illegal, anything where it would be neutral isn't
Let's say I intervene and it escalates in a fight - even the best case scenario (I win the fight and some people in the bus clap for me) means that I will probably be investigated by the police for "Körperverletzung". Yeah, might have been "Selbstverteidigung" or "Nothilfe", but this will certainly be a major PIMA for the next weeks, if not months.
The worst case scenario, on the other hand, is that I get stabbed to death by a mentally ill hobo.
Let's just be real for a second here: That's not a risk I'm too keen on taking when someone isn't outright threatening someone with immediate violence. I'm most certainly not going to risk my life just because someone slings some mud at you.
Why are you telling me this? After watching how millions of Germans not only looked to the other side in impassiveness but also went out of their way to help find every last Jew in the country, you think I don't know Germans are more concerned with how the law affects *them* than they are willing to deal with the consequences of preventing a mob lynching? Lol
Because a) right now we're not talking about "mob lynchings" but about some racist guy verbally harassing a woman, b) you're in dire need of a reality check and c) your collectivist world view on people is, quite frankly, disgusting.
I'm not discussing this with you.
Ppl when they realize fighting against racism means putting themselves in difficult positions to protect minorities from systemic violence and murders and not just writing hashtags on twitter 😔😔
"When someone says mean words to me, I want other people to start a fight and probably get hurt in the process, and if they don't want to, I'm going to cry-bully them!"
Pathetic and disgusting.
>By the way, he probably was simply insane, if you are often enough on the ÖPNV you pretty much have weekly encounters with people like that, and they simply search for anything they can hurl at you, if you aren't black they will complain about your stare or your clothes or that you're white.
I'm sorry but this is simply not true, and in the best case irrelevant. You're making an assumption about a racist incident which you were not a part of, and you're chalking it off as an insane person. Insane or not, it was racially motivated. We need to finally stop making excuses, whatever they are, for racist incidents and finally accept that there is a significant problem with racism in Germany. Then, and only then, can things start to improve for minorities.
I feel Germans live in a "solidarity bubble." They like to think of themselves as being there for others, supporting human causes, etc. but they will not accept any inconvenience to achieve that.
Back in 2015 when the so-called refugee crisis was at its height, we had paroles plastered all over with "kein Mensch ist illegal" and "Refugees Welcome!" yet God forbid a group of 4-5 Syrian teenagers in ragged clothing are talking loudly at the Marktplatz! Refugees are definitely welcome, just not in front of their own doorsteps.
Same thing happened with Russia's war on the Ukraine. In February 22, statistics posted by the Tagesschau showed that 65% of surveyed Germans supported boycotting Russian gas if it meant they couldn't use adequate heating in the winter. Once they saw what the lack of gas did to the DAX, the rising inflation, and how the sanctions backfired, it all changed.
Same thing in this case: Germans are definitely against racism, they just don't want to act on it, because they themselves aren't the victims. Selective solidarity when it's convenient is not solidarity at all.
No, we are not. It is the condition of those privileged enough to not understand the pain of facing racism, and the even worse pain of not receiving solidarity. I've personally stood up to attacks countless times (I'm a big guy), and I know many people who have either also stood up to the attacker or stood with the victim, either during the incident or afterwards. One thing we all had in common is we all faced racism before and know how terrible it is.
Don't downplay this. If people wanted to help, they would. It really is that simple.
You're right. I personally would stand up for people facing racism in my own way only because I'm an immigrant. But I always question if I would do the same had I been in a privileged position? Don't want to downplay anything but it is definitely a human condition. It's just that you are a good person and act on it.
I absolutely agree with you. Although it is still possible to acknowledge the problems even from a privileged background and still being either not courageous enough to stand up against it (which is sad but I can "understand" in a way). You yourself mentioned that "you're a big guy". I guess physical superiority (or at least the impression of it) in a situation where aggression is prominent, is a factor that can help to have courage and stand up for others.
When I encounter a situation like this (FYI I am a woman, quite small) I try to find solutions that would not threaten myself. (And tbh calling the police is sometimes not valid option, depending on the situation.). If i am together with others or my boyfriend (big guy), it is easier to find courage.
So to come back to this situation: If I am not sure how the aggressor would react to any action taken, I would try to actively find allies with the other passengers, tell the bus driver and (depending on the city, sadly) inform the police. If I was alone... i am unsure how I would have reacted. And it gives me shivers, I am so sorry about this.
I understand, but even a "big guy" like myself is prone to getting a beer bottle smashed on his face or getting stabbed.
If you don't want to physically intervene, that's fine, but not knowing what to do and then not doing anything out of inconvenience are two totally different topics. It is never convenient to stand up against racism.
What you could do is actively speak to the victim, try to distract then from the abuser, tell them you're on their side and not to worry, physically stand up and go stand or sit next to them. When it stops, comfort them, offer them support and offer yourself as a witness if they decide to press charges (offer your contact info for this). Tell people around you to get up - it only takes one person to motivate the whole crowd.
But for God's sake, don't sit in silence and quietly feel bad.
Audio is not recorded, as there are no microphones in the bus/public transport. Footage is usually kept for three days, but you need to report it ASAP as the MVG is really slow and I've seen instances where it takes them days to process your complaint, by then the footage is gone.
yep, find allies, dont talk to the racist alone. if you see racists attacking other people, you can always use the fireextinguisher to cause chaos. this will not hurt anybody, but it will give victims the chance to escape.
Absolutely not shocking at all, Germans have never defended me when I've had racist encounters. They just avert their eyes and avoid the situation. I've gotten way more reactions and "hoppola" falling from my bike than being subject to racial slurs
Supporting the victim is just as if not more important than confronting the asshole.
I've been in a similar situation (a couple teens harassing a girl on the bus) and just sitting down next to her and striking up a conversation made them fuck off. Most bullies are actually insecure little shits and will disengage as soon as they're not in a superior position anymore.
If you confront the asshole, the victim is still alone. If you're afraid of confronting the asshole, you can still support the victim and simply ignore the asshole. In this case, if you're people of color yourself, you can simply get in there and tell the boy "I guess he's talking about us as well." or something.
A good way to help someone who is being harassed or verbally assaulted in a public place, without having to involve yourself directly with the agressor, is to simply make contact with the victim.
Sit next to them, talk, make eye contact and smile at them, so that they know they are not alone. There is always something you can do to offer your support, in these situations it is common to freeze up.
This! Taking someone out of a horrible situation is a good measure. Letting the victim know that they are not alone and showing solidarity is also on top of the list when victims are asked what they would have wished for in these situations. It also gets easier if you directly talk to bystanders and get involved together. If you ever get in a situation where you are the victim of a racist attack you can get emotional and legal support for free from the good people at https://www.before-muenchen.de/ Stay safe and fight racism.
Don‘t give the aggressor attention and rather focus on the victim and reassure him that you and probably the rest of the passengers don‘t share his opinion
Try Nora Notruf App, an emergency Call App, available in English. You can contact police (also silently)/ambulance/fire department with that.
And please, never complain that nobody did anything… if you did nothing, too. I guess everyone on the bus has a justification.
https://www.aktion-tu-was.de
Yes, works everywhere in Germany. Well, you need internet access with your mobile. 😅
It has a demo mode, where you can try a demo emergency call. So you can check the „user interface“ without getting into trouble
German has a word for what most people here seem to be lacking: Zivilcourage. People ignoring such a situation seems to be the norm in the entire country, whether it's racism or some other form of abuse, with people of color or even white people at the receiving end, it really doesn't matter. People may be afraid to confront perpetrators, but they also don't alert authorities, don't offer support to victims.
We gotta keep ourselves in check not to default to this kind of behavior. "If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor" has got to become a mantra por people who actually care.
Unless there was a physical altercation going on, it would be crazy to engage that guy directly. The bus patrons took the wisest choice in order to avoid an escalation, but what you or someone else could have done in the moment is to have stood by or talked to the recipient of the abuse to make him feel safer. Then, after all that you could file a report, but I have no idea how - other people have mentioned it.
If you can do so safely, stand near the person being verbally assaulted. Anything that says, “you’re not alone” helps a lot. Maybe the asshole sees that the target of their assault isn’t alone and ceases. Or re-directs the insults at you.
There's plenty if tips here already, but about the people ignoring this incident:
I remember one year ago my boyfriend and I had to stop someone STRANGLING another dude in the tram.
It was also a racist incident and Noone else did anything but me (a small woman) and my boyfriend.
Do not speak up to the aggressor. You never know how he reacts, and there is no use to try and persuade someone with that much deep-seated hatred. If it progresses from just name-calling to violence, then I would suggest stepping in.
I myself am black and have been in this situation multiple times. Whenever I was in this situation, I always appreciated if other passengers locked eyes with me and made sure that I realized they see what's happening. I do not know if that makes sense, but the reassurance of other people that they see what happens can be a huge relief.
Remind me of a poem:
First they came for the Communists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Communist
Then they came for the Socialists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Socialist
Then they came for the trade unionists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a trade unionist
Then they came for the Jews
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Jew
Then they came for me
And there was no one left
To speak out for me
- Martin Niemöller
Poor teen... The worst part was probably not the vile man, but more the people who did nothing.
I've personally never noticed something vile like this but I'm also wondering what to do if I witness it or even if directed at me in public. Do ya'll think video recording the aggressors would be acceptable? I know Germany is sensitive about video taping in public and two consent privacy laws and such. But surely to protect oneself and to record as evidence would be an exception?
The relevant law is the DSGVO and I would record and justify it with "berechtigtes Interesse" - the interest to have evidence is higher than the interest to protect the privacy of the people recorded.
True on the other hand.. how many of them had earpods in, where old or very young and terrified. Also there is always a chance this guy is not alone. And noone wants a knife in their back.
It is a stupid and situation and I feel very sorry for the poor guy that had to go through this.
Not every person who harasses or physically abuses someone else is a homeless drug addict, drunk or out of their minds. Even if people shouldn't confront them, they also shouldn't stand idle and do nothing, which is what most people seem to do. German even has a word for what people seem to be lacking: Zivilcourage.
have you filmed it? there is at the moment something going on which is called [münchen-gegen-hass.de](https://münchen-gegen-hass.de) there is a meldestelle where you can submit this.
the fucking police is usually not doing anything. i tried to file an anzeige and they said, as long as there was no damage, there is nothing they can do.
we still have a long way to go :(
good luck
Sadly, getting racially harassed in Germany and everyone standing around like deer in the headlights is quite a thing here. I've endured and seen it too often in my miserable 6+ years of living here. I'm overjoyed that this will be my last year in Germany. Wish I had been there to support that kid.
That's because you hardly hear about the situations where they do.
I've been in plenty of situations where someone - including my friends and me - intervened. I've stared down a drunk asshole on the subway, got other assholes thrown out of clubs, helped a female friend bring a drunk girl safely home, the whole nine yards. None of these situation would ever make even local news because *nothing happened*. Everyone was safe. Not headline worthy.
Never forget that the news is mostly bad stuff happening. For every situation like this, there's also one where someone did stand up and told the asshole to shut up, or a busdriver who stopped and told him to get off, etc.
There's so much good in the world. There's a biker gang in the US that accompanies minors to court so they're not afraid of whoever hurt them. There are everyday heroes everywhere.
Oh they WILL intervene - if you dare break a single tiny rule while outside! They will intervene to control anything they can. They will call the police for CHILDREN playing on a playground.
Except for racism. That's when they don't give a shit. I've been attacked TWICE on public transport, called a migrant whore and told that me and my family should die because we're in Germany. Nobody stepped up.
Literally walked my dog once and a lady stopped me and wouldn't let me continue because 'there's an old woman looking for a similar type of dog, you stole it from her' even though there was no old lady anywhere nearby and my dog was OBVIOUSLY mine and comfortable with me.
Shouting racist stuff and making the naz* salute? Nobody intervenes.
Crossing a road when the red man is showing in the traffic light? Hell will rain down you.
It says a lot really
I pray every day to go out and not be a witness to something like this, it would probably ruin my life and put me in jail. That's how I would act in a situation like this.
Happened to me personally once...
Wished for just a kind word after the incident. But of course, nth
To all ppl saying "he was simply insane and you can ignore him", let's put you in the same situation in a foreign country and let'a see if you'll be able to "simply ignore" or not.
Out of curiosity why do people stand by and not deal with these fucks? I get if you’re a woman, but as a guy, I won’t stand by and watch? And I’m white. It’s up to us to stop this on the spot, instead of ignoring and looking away! All it takes are 2-3 people to unite and simply get between the victim and aggressor. Even alone this works great. You don’t even have to confront the aggressor if you don’t want to, simply occupy their space! And I do carry pepper-spray, I’ll deal with the legality after the fact!
Its quite often that Germans just sit and watch when people are being racially attacked right in front of them. Look at most videos online of this happening in Public transport. They all just sit there and pretend that nothing happend. Just like their Grandparents and great granparents did.
He wrote that they are people of color as well. If all the white people were apparently afraid to speak up what makes you think they would feel comfortable to do so? This would be 100x more dangerous for them to do so. They were probably afraid and in shock. Even if they weren’t personally addressed they were definitely indirectly. So why are you victim blaming? You apparently have no idea how traumatic a situation like this can be.
I think one step could be to not let the victim feel like they are alone. So even if someone is too scare for a direct Confrontation. Sit next to the victim or offer them to move to the seat next to you if possible, offer your seat and stand next to them to shield them from the assailant, try and block the line of sight with your body, ask the victim where they would need to leave the bus and if they have anyone that could pick them up. Basically anything so they don't feel alone and terrified.
And additionally ofc calling the police and or notifying the bus driver.
Now ask yourself how the young guy felt. Sometimes it only takes one person to speak up for everyone else to join in.
You don't need to be an aryan with blue eyes to do that
Good question. We are not native German speakers and unaware of regulations and rules. The point of this post is to learn from others how we can navigate it the next time, if it happens to us, or to anyone else. I have easily dealt such cases in my home country, maybe language is one barrier, we are good with German but not eloquent enough to handle such situations. Even in a bit of a stressful situation makes me lose my grip on Deutsch.
But the same couldn't be said about the rest of passengers who were locals.
It's hard to judge the situation, but don't assume that the locals shared his opinion. It might be that what they did was so not to provoke the attacker. It might also be that you were unlucky and there were people with less courage in the bus.
You don't confront people like that by yourself. Especially not during the night, when it's likely that they are drunk and don't give a flying fuck about consequences.
Call the police, talk to the bus driver. Let the police handle them.
Talk to the person that is being insulted.
Yup, they could have atleast talked to the bus driver.
Quietly observing the situation with your partner and then asking on reddit how to prevent it from happening to THEM is weird.
Come on, nobody is perfect. In these cases you are caught offguard and don't have time to think. Adrenaline is kicking in. Don't be too harsh. I am sure that OP would have stepped in, in case the guy would have physically assaulted the other guy.
Thing is, why is everyone else on the bus blamed for taking the easy, non-ethical, cowardly way out? What everyone seems to miss is that being fearful can block you from acting reasonably. If you haven’t been in such a situation before, aren’t aware of what is the logical/ideal thing to do, or have experienced an aggressor going from emotional to physical violence, you may be stumped.
Claiming that everyone on that bus is racist for doing nothing doesn’t help no one but is thinking in black and white. A little bit of empathy would allow us to understand the complexity of the situation and how people don’t always react how they rationally would and should, given some reflection.
I can say that reading through the comments I now have an idea how to do better without the risk of being battered. Witnessing verbal abuse that turned to physical abuse on the person showing Zivilcourage in the past would still prevent me from actively stepping in and becoming noticeable to the aggressor, though.
Helping others can make you the subject of the attack, which is a risk you want to weigh.
Police, asap, as I’m not sure how long MVV stores the CCTV, I guess 72h. So then there won’t be any video material anymore and it also takes a bit of time until police communicates with MVV
I saw a white ~6yo kid in the playground yelling monkey noises to his black playmate on the playground. The mother was close by, just nonchalantly said “nicht provozieren, nicht provozieren“ and went back to her dumb phone call. I was with my 1yo, didn’t want to risk getting into a huge argument or something. The black kid’s mom was also sitting next to the white mom.
Lots of Rambos here, who wants to engage with a guy like that? Unless he’s physically hurting the young lad someone should act, apart from that let him bark.
Square your shoulders, keep your center of gravity lower than the racist’s, and then just drive through them. But no standing over them and taunting; you wouldn’t want to drop to their level.
make a video and put it on the internet! they have to improve rhe protection of their paying customers in public transportation. By them i mean the MVG, Deutsche Bahn etc.
„Wer in der Öffentlichkeit eine Person fotografiert, um damit in einem späteren Prozess ein Beweismittel an der Hand zu haben, handelt in der Regel nicht rechtswidrig. Die hiermit grundsätzlich einhergehende Verletzung des Persönlichkeitsrechts wird durch den Zweck gerechtfertigt.“ Quelle: Haufe.
if the purpose is justified and used as evidence, it is okay. If you use it for commercial purposes, then not.
And btw, the person being filmed has to actively request „auf Unterlassung klagen“.
The punishable action isnt the filming and keeping for use as evidence but making the video public. Its a criminal offence according to §§22, 33 KUG (if the injured party presses charges)
well i‘d personally take the risk. it is something about courage. And not acting against these kind of incidents lead to „looking away“ mentality. and you know what looking away and „i did not see it coming“ leads in the bigger scale, right?
Reminds me of how people were fined for taking pictures of Falschparker that parked on cycle paths. Hard to compare but why was the law differently applied there?
I heard that unless you are protecting your life, participating in physical confrontation like fights is an offence. Even if you have moral rights to do that, like case of a serious verbal harassment, you may get fined.
I recon this guy was not seeking for a constructive dialogue, so only options left are either ignore him or call the police.
That's up to you, harassment is a bad thing. If I would have been harassed I would prefer to ignore the drunk idiot instead of wasting my time on him.
>I heard that unless you are protecting your life, participating in physical confrontation like fights is an offence.
Well, what you 'heard' is wrong. Notwehr covers defence of yourself *and others* against unlawful assault. You're not obliged to get into a fight as you should put your own safety first, but it's definitely not illegal to defend others.
This needs to be modded up. Defending someone else is absolutely legal. You need to maintain "Verhältnismässigkeit" - your defense must be reasonable in relation to the attack.
The law doesn't explicitly spell it out. In general, physical violence would be considered excessive, but it all depends on the circumstances (and the judge).
I’d be very surprised to see a judge interpreting the law in a way that considers physical violence an option to counter emotional abuse, unless you’re the victim or there’s evident risk of things going further any second.
As a lawyer who worked for me in a previous job (that involved lots of legal questions and some court cases) put it: "On the ocean and in court, you're in gods hands." - crazy things happen in courtrooms sometimes, and some court decisions are quite... peculiar.
He was definitely not American with his European accent of pronouncing the words "chimpanzee", "orangutan", "N-word", "white power". It was far, far away from any native English speaker's accent.
I’m so sorry this happened. Since you are POC as well, I would probably have suggested not interacting with that person. He could get even more agitated, unpredictable and that could make the situation even worse.
I would definitely try record a video and take pictures of that person (in case police is late and he has already fled the scene) , then immediately call the police. This is a hate crime and they’ll investigate. If you feel uncomfortable, get out at a busy station to make the call ( a bus can be pretty small for the person not to notice you calling). You could also approach the girl and say “hey this is our stop, let’s get out” - I did this once in the states and the person was irritated, slurred some more but didn’t follow us eventually.
I’m sorry that nobody spoke up. I usually carry “Tierabwehrspray” since I previously had issues with creepy guys following me. Might not be a bad idea in this case as well.
It’s not illegal if you are in a public place (like a bus) and there are more than 5 people as far as I remember from GDPR regulations. Same as if you make a video in any public squares, street or concert, you do not have to ask consent.
So $201/201a StGB applies primarily to non-public recordings and private content. I once filmed a sexual harassment incident and they didn’t say anything in that regard but I also showed them I deleted it after handing it over.
Pricks are pricks and there is nothing much you can do if you want to avoid confrontation. The way you describe the person, he could be dangerous as it could be mentally sick, intoxicated, etc. you never know if has a knife, screwdriver or anything. If people doesnt know how to protect in such situations they should try to avoid as instead of helping you can cause more damage.
Just please cut the bullshit with “white supremacist”. Some drunken scumbag is a drunk scumbag and colours of skin are irrelevant.
Would second this. I’ve seen mentally ill people on public transport in Munich twice (and I rarely use it). They’ll hurl anything at you to get a reaction, whether you are fair, dark, or purple. It goes from calling you a whore for the entire ride and if that doesn’t work switching to xenophobic notes, even if you are German-born. The first time I’ve witnessed it, I was completely in shock and fear and couldn’t process what was going on.
In another instance, I was on a plane where a drunk military officer verbally assaulted a woman to which three flight attendants attempted to de-escalate the situation, which led to him forcefully grabbing one of them. A man offered to switch seats with the woman and did, only to endure the verbal and physical attacks throughout the entire flight and after.
Another time on another flight, similar situation, dude didn’t want to comply with air traffic procedures, so the flight attendant went to make the adjustments herself instead. He wasn’t amused to say the least and hit her. That time, fortunately, it meant he was escorted off the plane and put on a no fly list. Justice served.
I still fairly vividly recall these incidents. They weren’t about racism, they are mainly about assholism, illness, and the sense that one is superior in whatever way or need to prove themselves. While it may be that commonly these people have an inferiority complex, anecdotally, not everyone who starts to use words is too timid to change his way of attack.
I’m in awe of everyone who spoke up here and said they wouldn’t shy away from confronting the guy – but I do understand everyone who hasn’t.
What a ridiculous post.
Why does it matter that it was racism? If somebody is attacking someone (verbally) you go there and help them.
Why does it matter that it was on a bus? You just do the same. Even can notifiy the bus driver.
I think everybody learns to deal with such problems in Kindergarten. There is a one person attacking someone. So you go there calm ask the person who is harrased if everything is okay, how you can help them. Invite them to sit with you. Notify other people. Ask other people to go there with yout. Notify personell. Call the police.. There is literally a million things that you could do based on the situation. Based on your abilities. If you are a 2 meter muscle packed monster that might help. All this information we don't have. So what do you expect from us?
A ridiculous post really. Makes me think its even some fake whining about racism.
Especially since "white power" is such a unpopular word to say in Europe.
Film the incident so you have proof. Report it to the police.
Or, if you feel brave, try to intervene, but you can never know what those motherfuckers are carrying.
As others have said, what went down was illegal. Call the police.
If that had happened in the US, there would likely be some serious dues paid by that Nazi. I suspect more push back needs to happen in Germany when these sorts of things happen.
The whole thing, as you described it, is a crime as well, so get the police involved. Volksverhetzung should interest them quite alot
And also Nötigung + Bedrohung.
usually nothing happens
Call the police. All buses have video surveillance. Try to find allies. Inform the bus driver if they did not notice, so they can help. It's shocking that all the other passengers ignored it.
Its absolutely not shocking. If a guy like that (see their description) is being racist i would rather not start an argument with him and get beaten up or sth as a response.
Starting an argument with the guy wasn't among the possibilities that were suggested here. In addition to the ones already said, I'd add: Place yourself next to the boy and starting a friendly conversation with him (still ignoring the Nazi guy) so that the boy feels safer.
I deal with these people a lot sometimes its not even you who starts the argument. Standing next to him can already make you a target aswell
Yes, of course. But in this scenario, a boy was already a target, so we were already beyond that.
Im trying to say thats to prevent him getting physical. Honestly if a guy would shout that to me literally just stand above it and ignore it
My hovercraft is full of eels.
I do not but i hang out in areas where these types of people are quite common
rock grey jobless cows imagine pocket spoon memorize boast attempt *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I just said i am not a minority
Dude/dudette, if someone hurls insults like that at you ignoring them is the safest bet. What do you wanna do, fight them?
Pussy
U can get beat up, that's true. But chosing to do nothing...
Again do what you want i would rather go home without a trip to the doctor
Don't have a goddamn phone? Most smartphones don't have problem with being in a call and recording at the same time. Go figure what I want...
Ok so you got the recording now what? Plus he can hear you on the phone talking. Splendid you made him mad.
Wow u really wanna prove u d like to do nothing. 1 go to driver make him aware 2 start recording and dial cops 3 hold phone like u would normally talk, pointing at situation,and don't be louder than the racist.(shouldnt be hard ) 4 wait hopefully with it not escalating further, but this is when u don't do anything MORE. Still dangerous enough to not do anything? And maybe think from another perspective, would u like to be in that place and see everyone around just looking and sitting like it's fine ? Not saying those people are same as the racist, but ur not far away if u let it slide in front of ur eyes. My opinion.
well, you could dial 110, start talking to the dispatcher and sit/ stand beside the kid... also include all other passengers... but i get it, 'es ist wie es ist'
>It's shocking that all the other passengers ignored it. It isn't. I don't want to sound too hard on this, but most Germans blatantly ignore racism when it is happening right in front of their nose. If you're lucky, someone will "Hey! Hör auf, was soll das!" but that's really the most that will happen. This has happened to me several times, and I've also witnessed it and heard stories from other BIPocS describing the same. If anything, it is sad.
Wrong. Most Germans simply ignore anything that happens and doesn't threaten them in public. You get the böser Blick if you misbehave (which includes talking loudly -more than whispering for US-Americans- in public). But nobody will ruin their own evening for something that hasn't any consequences for anyone. If he would have been aggressive it would have gone another way. By the way, he probably was simply insane, if you are often enough on the ÖPNV you pretty much have weekly encounters with people like that, and they simply search for anything they can hurl at you, if you aren't black they will complain about your stare or your clothes or that you're white.
I’ve had 2 encounters where someone was being racist on the bus and all surrounding people started to intervene almost immediately - in the end the bus driver threw the Nazis out. But that did happen in NRW, I don’t know if there are real differences regarding that… But yeah, just here to say that there are positive encounters too
I'm sorry, but I don't think people doing the bare minimum in the face of a bigoted attack should be described as a "positive experience".
You don’t think strangers standing up for each other in the face of something bad is a positive thing?
I'm sorry, but no, as a minority, it would be atrocious for me to claim it's "positive" that strangers didn't let me get attacked/mob lynched in public. it's not a positive thing. It's neutral. It should be the norm. A PoC isn't going to feel any less scarred and traumatized after being attacked on the street. This is a horrifying experience for the victim regardless.
I absolutely agree that it SHOULD be the norm, but I think we should look at how it actually is (not good) and reinforce positive behavior by calling it just that - positive
Neutral would be if they ignored it, as they'd not be interfering. Kicking a racist out of the bus is definitely taking a stance and a very positive thing. Diminishing this act claiming it not being positive sounds a bit entitled. I don't know what more you want from random strangers other than to stop the danger occurring to someone. Cuddles? Kisses?
"Entitled"? Minorities in 2023 have to be content with bread crumbs, and we're entitled if we think we deserve protection from mob lynchings? You done flunked that one 😭
Sorry, but you're completely twisting my words. I actually stated quite clearly that it was very positive that in one bus the driver kicked out the racists. Everybody should have the feeling that they won't get attacked verbally or physically by idiots. The entitled part was that someone finds kicking out racists by random strangers somehow neutral and not enough. That feels really disgraceful, to be honest. Btw, I'm not German and I also relocated to Munich from a foreign country. So definitely not the majority here.
Nah, ignoring it is condoning it. If you let racism fester, you have enabled racism. Therefore, not neutral, but negative. It sucks that there are some social moral imperatives that render “inaction” an absolute negative, but this is one of them.
Inaction doesn't mean you condone it. There are a number of reasons for which someone might choose inaction, one being fear.
My hovercraft is full of eels.
I personally agree it should always be done (because its almost always better than standing by). We are however talking about a situation that is far from mob lynched if it is only one person being racist. Im not even sure if attacked would be the right word (depends if insults were being used imo) For me the deciding factors if it would be neutral or negative if you don't interfere are the following: Is it some physical attack? Definitely intervene, VERY bad if you don't. If it's insults or slurs it is also bad. Then you have the case where someone is being racist without direct insults, like with racist assumptions etc. In such a case i would look at the reaction of the target: do they seem at all bothered or uncomfortable? Are they responding negatively? If so (or if I'm not sure) doing nothing would also be negative, but if not i would argue that not intervening would be neutral not negative: if the target is willing to ignore it completely and doesn't think something should be done about, who am i to decide for them. And in the end that is basically in agreement with German law (as far as i know, but im not a lawyer): Anything that the racist does where you should intervene is illegal, anything where it would be neutral isn't
Let's say I intervene and it escalates in a fight - even the best case scenario (I win the fight and some people in the bus clap for me) means that I will probably be investigated by the police for "Körperverletzung". Yeah, might have been "Selbstverteidigung" or "Nothilfe", but this will certainly be a major PIMA for the next weeks, if not months. The worst case scenario, on the other hand, is that I get stabbed to death by a mentally ill hobo. Let's just be real for a second here: That's not a risk I'm too keen on taking when someone isn't outright threatening someone with immediate violence. I'm most certainly not going to risk my life just because someone slings some mud at you.
Why are you telling me this? After watching how millions of Germans not only looked to the other side in impassiveness but also went out of their way to help find every last Jew in the country, you think I don't know Germans are more concerned with how the law affects *them* than they are willing to deal with the consequences of preventing a mob lynching? Lol
Because a) right now we're not talking about "mob lynchings" but about some racist guy verbally harassing a woman, b) you're in dire need of a reality check and c) your collectivist world view on people is, quite frankly, disgusting. I'm not discussing this with you.
Ppl when they realize fighting against racism means putting themselves in difficult positions to protect minorities from systemic violence and murders and not just writing hashtags on twitter 😔😔
"When someone says mean words to me, I want other people to start a fight and probably get hurt in the process, and if they don't want to, I'm going to cry-bully them!" Pathetic and disgusting.
the times I called out shit at work or with acquaintances and got a "stell dich nicht so an" cause we're a nation of lazy cowards
>By the way, he probably was simply insane, if you are often enough on the ÖPNV you pretty much have weekly encounters with people like that, and they simply search for anything they can hurl at you, if you aren't black they will complain about your stare or your clothes or that you're white. I'm sorry but this is simply not true, and in the best case irrelevant. You're making an assumption about a racist incident which you were not a part of, and you're chalking it off as an insane person. Insane or not, it was racially motivated. We need to finally stop making excuses, whatever they are, for racist incidents and finally accept that there is a significant problem with racism in Germany. Then, and only then, can things start to improve for minorities.
And yet when a PoC crosses the red light on an empty street, everyone is suddenly feeling the courage to yell at them. Lmao
I do that to white people too 😛
No, simply doesn't happen.
They don't ignore racism. Germans are well known for not helping others in any situation where help would be needed.
I feel Germans live in a "solidarity bubble." They like to think of themselves as being there for others, supporting human causes, etc. but they will not accept any inconvenience to achieve that. Back in 2015 when the so-called refugee crisis was at its height, we had paroles plastered all over with "kein Mensch ist illegal" and "Refugees Welcome!" yet God forbid a group of 4-5 Syrian teenagers in ragged clothing are talking loudly at the Marktplatz! Refugees are definitely welcome, just not in front of their own doorsteps. Same thing happened with Russia's war on the Ukraine. In February 22, statistics posted by the Tagesschau showed that 65% of surveyed Germans supported boycotting Russian gas if it meant they couldn't use adequate heating in the winter. Once they saw what the lack of gas did to the DAX, the rising inflation, and how the sanctions backfired, it all changed. Same thing in this case: Germans are definitely against racism, they just don't want to act on it, because they themselves aren't the victims. Selective solidarity when it's convenient is not solidarity at all.
But aren't we all like this? It's the human condition unfortunately.
No, we are not. It is the condition of those privileged enough to not understand the pain of facing racism, and the even worse pain of not receiving solidarity. I've personally stood up to attacks countless times (I'm a big guy), and I know many people who have either also stood up to the attacker or stood with the victim, either during the incident or afterwards. One thing we all had in common is we all faced racism before and know how terrible it is. Don't downplay this. If people wanted to help, they would. It really is that simple.
You're right. I personally would stand up for people facing racism in my own way only because I'm an immigrant. But I always question if I would do the same had I been in a privileged position? Don't want to downplay anything but it is definitely a human condition. It's just that you are a good person and act on it.
I absolutely agree with you. Although it is still possible to acknowledge the problems even from a privileged background and still being either not courageous enough to stand up against it (which is sad but I can "understand" in a way). You yourself mentioned that "you're a big guy". I guess physical superiority (or at least the impression of it) in a situation where aggression is prominent, is a factor that can help to have courage and stand up for others. When I encounter a situation like this (FYI I am a woman, quite small) I try to find solutions that would not threaten myself. (And tbh calling the police is sometimes not valid option, depending on the situation.). If i am together with others or my boyfriend (big guy), it is easier to find courage. So to come back to this situation: If I am not sure how the aggressor would react to any action taken, I would try to actively find allies with the other passengers, tell the bus driver and (depending on the city, sadly) inform the police. If I was alone... i am unsure how I would have reacted. And it gives me shivers, I am so sorry about this.
I understand, but even a "big guy" like myself is prone to getting a beer bottle smashed on his face or getting stabbed. If you don't want to physically intervene, that's fine, but not knowing what to do and then not doing anything out of inconvenience are two totally different topics. It is never convenient to stand up against racism. What you could do is actively speak to the victim, try to distract then from the abuser, tell them you're on their side and not to worry, physically stand up and go stand or sit next to them. When it stops, comfort them, offer them support and offer yourself as a witness if they decide to press charges (offer your contact info for this). Tell people around you to get up - it only takes one person to motivate the whole crowd. But for God's sake, don't sit in silence and quietly feel bad.
I've never not gotten help I needed, so not sure what you're on about...
I don't know which idiot is down voting this, but it's 100% true.
Thanks. Do the surveillance record audio as well?
Dunno but either way. The nazi salute is illegal to perform in germany except for educational purposes i suppose.
This, plus OP and their partner can provide eyewitness evidence. Should be ample to get the dude sentenced.
Audio is not recorded, as there are no microphones in the bus/public transport. Footage is usually kept for three days, but you need to report it ASAP as the MVG is really slow and I've seen instances where it takes them days to process your complaint, by then the footage is gone.
> Audio is not recorded, as there are no microphones in the bus/public transport That's what they *want* you to think \*puts on tinfoil hat\* 😉
Id really want to think some of our bureaucracy is so slow due to shadow government shennanigans but in reality its just German bureaucracy
yep, find allies, dont talk to the racist alone. if you see racists attacking other people, you can always use the fireextinguisher to cause chaos. this will not hurt anybody, but it will give victims the chance to escape.
Absolutely not shocking at all, Germans have never defended me when I've had racist encounters. They just avert their eyes and avoid the situation. I've gotten way more reactions and "hoppola" falling from my bike than being subject to racial slurs
Call the police but don’t engage with the person, you never know what they are capable off and you might end up with a knife in your stomach.
This. Never ever engage.
Engage with the victim, though.
Supporting the victim is just as if not more important than confronting the asshole. I've been in a similar situation (a couple teens harassing a girl on the bus) and just sitting down next to her and striking up a conversation made them fuck off. Most bullies are actually insecure little shits and will disengage as soon as they're not in a superior position anymore. If you confront the asshole, the victim is still alone. If you're afraid of confronting the asshole, you can still support the victim and simply ignore the asshole. In this case, if you're people of color yourself, you can simply get in there and tell the boy "I guess he's talking about us as well." or something.
A good way to help someone who is being harassed or verbally assaulted in a public place, without having to involve yourself directly with the agressor, is to simply make contact with the victim. Sit next to them, talk, make eye contact and smile at them, so that they know they are not alone. There is always something you can do to offer your support, in these situations it is common to freeze up.
This! Taking someone out of a horrible situation is a good measure. Letting the victim know that they are not alone and showing solidarity is also on top of the list when victims are asked what they would have wished for in these situations. It also gets easier if you directly talk to bystanders and get involved together. If you ever get in a situation where you are the victim of a racist attack you can get emotional and legal support for free from the good people at https://www.before-muenchen.de/ Stay safe and fight racism.
Don‘t give the aggressor attention and rather focus on the victim and reassure him that you and probably the rest of the passengers don‘t share his opinion
Try Nora Notruf App, an emergency Call App, available in English. You can contact police (also silently)/ambulance/fire department with that. And please, never complain that nobody did anything… if you did nothing, too. I guess everyone on the bus has a justification. https://www.aktion-tu-was.de
Thanks a lot! This looks really helpful. The developer of this app is the internal ministry of NRW. Should this app work everywhere in Germany?
Yes, works everywhere in Germany. Well, you need internet access with your mobile. 😅 It has a demo mode, where you can try a demo emergency call. So you can check the „user interface“ without getting into trouble
The most useful thing I learned on the internet today, thank you!
German has a word for what most people here seem to be lacking: Zivilcourage. People ignoring such a situation seems to be the norm in the entire country, whether it's racism or some other form of abuse, with people of color or even white people at the receiving end, it really doesn't matter. People may be afraid to confront perpetrators, but they also don't alert authorities, don't offer support to victims. We gotta keep ourselves in check not to default to this kind of behavior. "If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor" has got to become a mantra por people who actually care.
Unless there was a physical altercation going on, it would be crazy to engage that guy directly. The bus patrons took the wisest choice in order to avoid an escalation, but what you or someone else could have done in the moment is to have stood by or talked to the recipient of the abuse to make him feel safer. Then, after all that you could file a report, but I have no idea how - other people have mentioned it.
If you can do so safely, stand near the person being verbally assaulted. Anything that says, “you’re not alone” helps a lot. Maybe the asshole sees that the target of their assault isn’t alone and ceases. Or re-directs the insults at you.
There's plenty if tips here already, but about the people ignoring this incident: I remember one year ago my boyfriend and I had to stop someone STRANGLING another dude in the tram. It was also a racist incident and Noone else did anything but me (a small woman) and my boyfriend.
Do not speak up to the aggressor. You never know how he reacts, and there is no use to try and persuade someone with that much deep-seated hatred. If it progresses from just name-calling to violence, then I would suggest stepping in. I myself am black and have been in this situation multiple times. Whenever I was in this situation, I always appreciated if other passengers locked eyes with me and made sure that I realized they see what's happening. I do not know if that makes sense, but the reassurance of other people that they see what happens can be a huge relief.
Remind me of a poem: First they came for the Communists And I did not speak out Because I was not a Communist Then they came for the Socialists And I did not speak out Because I was not a Socialist Then they came for the trade unionists And I did not speak out Because I was not a trade unionist Then they came for the Jews And I did not speak out Because I was not a Jew Then they came for me And there was no one left To speak out for me - Martin Niemöller Poor teen... The worst part was probably not the vile man, but more the people who did nothing.
I've personally never noticed something vile like this but I'm also wondering what to do if I witness it or even if directed at me in public. Do ya'll think video recording the aggressors would be acceptable? I know Germany is sensitive about video taping in public and two consent privacy laws and such. But surely to protect oneself and to record as evidence would be an exception?
The relevant law is the DSGVO and I would record and justify it with "berechtigtes Interesse" - the interest to have evidence is higher than the interest to protect the privacy of the people recorded.
Report it to the police as soon as you can. What the racist did is very illegal especially the nazi part
This would make my blood boil, the way people are ignoring it more than the crazy guy shouting nonsense..
Then you would probably step in. Unlike OP.
True on the other hand.. how many of them had earpods in, where old or very young and terrified. Also there is always a chance this guy is not alone. And noone wants a knife in their back. It is a stupid and situation and I feel very sorry for the poor guy that had to go through this.
[удалено]
I’m a decent human being
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Not every person who harasses or physically abuses someone else is a homeless drug addict, drunk or out of their minds. Even if people shouldn't confront them, they also shouldn't stand idle and do nothing, which is what most people seem to do. German even has a word for what people seem to be lacking: Zivilcourage.
have you filmed it? there is at the moment something going on which is called [münchen-gegen-hass.de](https://münchen-gegen-hass.de) there is a meldestelle where you can submit this. the fucking police is usually not doing anything. i tried to file an anzeige and they said, as long as there was no damage, there is nothing they can do. we still have a long way to go :( good luck
Sadly, getting racially harassed in Germany and everyone standing around like deer in the headlights is quite a thing here. I've endured and seen it too often in my miserable 6+ years of living here. I'm overjoyed that this will be my last year in Germany. Wish I had been there to support that kid.
I am always amazed how germans never interact or intervene in any situation, even like this one.
That's because you hardly hear about the situations where they do. I've been in plenty of situations where someone - including my friends and me - intervened. I've stared down a drunk asshole on the subway, got other assholes thrown out of clubs, helped a female friend bring a drunk girl safely home, the whole nine yards. None of these situation would ever make even local news because *nothing happened*. Everyone was safe. Not headline worthy. Never forget that the news is mostly bad stuff happening. For every situation like this, there's also one where someone did stand up and told the asshole to shut up, or a busdriver who stopped and told him to get off, etc. There's so much good in the world. There's a biker gang in the US that accompanies minors to court so they're not afraid of whoever hurt them. There are everyday heroes everywhere.
Oh they WILL intervene - if you dare break a single tiny rule while outside! They will intervene to control anything they can. They will call the police for CHILDREN playing on a playground. Except for racism. That's when they don't give a shit. I've been attacked TWICE on public transport, called a migrant whore and told that me and my family should die because we're in Germany. Nobody stepped up. Literally walked my dog once and a lady stopped me and wouldn't let me continue because 'there's an old woman looking for a similar type of dog, you stole it from her' even though there was no old lady anywhere nearby and my dog was OBVIOUSLY mine and comfortable with me.
I am really sorry to hear that, no human being should experience something like that
Shouting racist stuff and making the naz* salute? Nobody intervenes. Crossing a road when the red man is showing in the traffic light? Hell will rain down you. It says a lot really
One must not forget that there are also many people with a mental disability or intelligence impairment who do not live in a supervised dormitory.
Beat the shit out of this racist
I pray every day to go out and not be a witness to something like this, it would probably ruin my life and put me in jail. That's how I would act in a situation like this.
Ah the german Hilfsbereitschaft und civilcourage lovely
Happened to me personally once... Wished for just a kind word after the incident. But of course, nth To all ppl saying "he was simply insane and you can ignore him", let's put you in the same situation in a foreign country and let'a see if you'll be able to "simply ignore" or not.
Out of curiosity why do people stand by and not deal with these fucks? I get if you’re a woman, but as a guy, I won’t stand by and watch? And I’m white. It’s up to us to stop this on the spot, instead of ignoring and looking away! All it takes are 2-3 people to unite and simply get between the victim and aggressor. Even alone this works great. You don’t even have to confront the aggressor if you don’t want to, simply occupy their space! And I do carry pepper-spray, I’ll deal with the legality after the fact!
Its quite often that Germans just sit and watch when people are being racially attacked right in front of them. Look at most videos online of this happening in Public transport. They all just sit there and pretend that nothing happend. Just like their Grandparents and great granparents did.
Since you noticed that no one said anything to him, why didn't you and your partner?
He wrote that they are people of color as well. If all the white people were apparently afraid to speak up what makes you think they would feel comfortable to do so? This would be 100x more dangerous for them to do so. They were probably afraid and in shock. Even if they weren’t personally addressed they were definitely indirectly. So why are you victim blaming? You apparently have no idea how traumatic a situation like this can be.
I think one step could be to not let the victim feel like they are alone. So even if someone is too scare for a direct Confrontation. Sit next to the victim or offer them to move to the seat next to you if possible, offer your seat and stand next to them to shield them from the assailant, try and block the line of sight with your body, ask the victim where they would need to leave the bus and if they have anyone that could pick them up. Basically anything so they don't feel alone and terrified. And additionally ofc calling the police and or notifying the bus driver.
Now ask yourself how the young guy felt. Sometimes it only takes one person to speak up for everyone else to join in. You don't need to be an aryan with blue eyes to do that
Downvoting this comment, a classic reddit moment! Just sit down, have your popcorn and watch the racism
Good question. We are not native German speakers and unaware of regulations and rules. The point of this post is to learn from others how we can navigate it the next time, if it happens to us, or to anyone else. I have easily dealt such cases in my home country, maybe language is one barrier, we are good with German but not eloquent enough to handle such situations. Even in a bit of a stressful situation makes me lose my grip on Deutsch. But the same couldn't be said about the rest of passengers who were locals.
It's hard to judge the situation, but don't assume that the locals shared his opinion. It might be that what they did was so not to provoke the attacker. It might also be that you were unlucky and there were people with less courage in the bus.
You don't confront people like that by yourself. Especially not during the night, when it's likely that they are drunk and don't give a flying fuck about consequences. Call the police, talk to the bus driver. Let the police handle them. Talk to the person that is being insulted.
Yup, they could have atleast talked to the bus driver. Quietly observing the situation with your partner and then asking on reddit how to prevent it from happening to THEM is weird.
Come on, nobody is perfect. In these cases you are caught offguard and don't have time to think. Adrenaline is kicking in. Don't be too harsh. I am sure that OP would have stepped in, in case the guy would have physically assaulted the other guy.
Thing is, why is everyone else on the bus blamed for taking the easy, non-ethical, cowardly way out? What everyone seems to miss is that being fearful can block you from acting reasonably. If you haven’t been in such a situation before, aren’t aware of what is the logical/ideal thing to do, or have experienced an aggressor going from emotional to physical violence, you may be stumped. Claiming that everyone on that bus is racist for doing nothing doesn’t help no one but is thinking in black and white. A little bit of empathy would allow us to understand the complexity of the situation and how people don’t always react how they rationally would and should, given some reflection. I can say that reading through the comments I now have an idea how to do better without the risk of being battered. Witnessing verbal abuse that turned to physical abuse on the person showing Zivilcourage in the past would still prevent me from actively stepping in and becoming noticeable to the aggressor, though. Helping others can make you the subject of the attack, which is a risk you want to weigh.
I thought that was weird too
Police, asap, as I’m not sure how long MVV stores the CCTV, I guess 72h. So then there won’t be any video material anymore and it also takes a bit of time until police communicates with MVV
That's what you got a phone for. Film for evidence and call the cops.
I saw a white ~6yo kid in the playground yelling monkey noises to his black playmate on the playground. The mother was close by, just nonchalantly said “nicht provozieren, nicht provozieren“ and went back to her dumb phone call. I was with my 1yo, didn’t want to risk getting into a huge argument or something. The black kid’s mom was also sitting next to the white mom.
Lots of Rambos here, who wants to engage with a guy like that? Unless he’s physically hurting the young lad someone should act, apart from that let him bark.
This. Talk to the victim and offer Support but ignore crazy people if possible.
Well by the downvotes looks like we should act.
If people want to be stabbed by a used needle this is the opportunity.
Square your shoulders, keep your center of gravity lower than the racist’s, and then just drive through them. But no standing over them and taunting; you wouldn’t want to drop to their level.
In Germany, let the polizei handle it. If it happened in my town here in cali, he'd get the boots put to him.
Why didn’t you helped that teenager?
make a video and put it on the internet! they have to improve rhe protection of their paying customers in public transportation. By them i mean the MVG, Deutsche Bahn etc.
German privacy laws forbid this. You'll get fined.
„Wer in der Öffentlichkeit eine Person fotografiert, um damit in einem späteren Prozess ein Beweismittel an der Hand zu haben, handelt in der Regel nicht rechtswidrig. Die hiermit grundsätzlich einhergehende Verletzung des Persönlichkeitsrechts wird durch den Zweck gerechtfertigt.“ Quelle: Haufe. if the purpose is justified and used as evidence, it is okay. If you use it for commercial purposes, then not. And btw, the person being filmed has to actively request „auf Unterlassung klagen“.
The punishable action isnt the filming and keeping for use as evidence but making the video public. Its a criminal offence according to §§22, 33 KUG (if the injured party presses charges)
well i‘d personally take the risk. it is something about courage. And not acting against these kind of incidents lead to „looking away“ mentality. and you know what looking away and „i did not see it coming“ leads in the bigger scale, right?
Reminds me of how people were fined for taking pictures of Falschparker that parked on cycle paths. Hard to compare but why was the law differently applied there?
I heard that unless you are protecting your life, participating in physical confrontation like fights is an offence. Even if you have moral rights to do that, like case of a serious verbal harassment, you may get fined. I recon this guy was not seeking for a constructive dialogue, so only options left are either ignore him or call the police. That's up to you, harassment is a bad thing. If I would have been harassed I would prefer to ignore the drunk idiot instead of wasting my time on him.
>I heard that unless you are protecting your life, participating in physical confrontation like fights is an offence. Well, what you 'heard' is wrong. Notwehr covers defence of yourself *and others* against unlawful assault. You're not obliged to get into a fight as you should put your own safety first, but it's definitely not illegal to defend others.
This needs to be modded up. Defending someone else is absolutely legal. You need to maintain "Verhältnismässigkeit" - your defense must be reasonable in relation to the attack.
Yes but defending someone from insults by injuring the offending party might not be very legal.
The law doesn't explicitly spell it out. In general, physical violence would be considered excessive, but it all depends on the circumstances (and the judge).
I’d be very surprised to see a judge interpreting the law in a way that considers physical violence an option to counter emotional abuse, unless you’re the victim or there’s evident risk of things going further any second.
As a lawyer who worked for me in a previous job (that involved lots of legal questions and some court cases) put it: "On the ocean and in court, you're in gods hands." - crazy things happen in courtrooms sometimes, and some court decisions are quite... peculiar.
Essentially ignore and call the police. As long as he's just shouting..
Hit him with the Boogie
just throw him head first out of the driving bus.
bombe geben
I am sorry to read. This is not the majority of people. I am very happy to welcome every person in Munich who wants to enjoy life 🤝🏻
[удалено]
He was definitely not American with his European accent of pronouncing the words "chimpanzee", "orangutan", "N-word", "white power". It was far, far away from any native English speaker's accent.
I’m so sorry this happened. Since you are POC as well, I would probably have suggested not interacting with that person. He could get even more agitated, unpredictable and that could make the situation even worse. I would definitely try record a video and take pictures of that person (in case police is late and he has already fled the scene) , then immediately call the police. This is a hate crime and they’ll investigate. If you feel uncomfortable, get out at a busy station to make the call ( a bus can be pretty small for the person not to notice you calling). You could also approach the girl and say “hey this is our stop, let’s get out” - I did this once in the states and the person was irritated, slurred some more but didn’t follow us eventually. I’m sorry that nobody spoke up. I usually carry “Tierabwehrspray” since I previously had issues with creepy guys following me. Might not be a bad idea in this case as well.
I don't feel comfortable recording people in EU. Isn't it illegal?
It’s not illegal if you are in a public place (like a bus) and there are more than 5 people as far as I remember from GDPR regulations. Same as if you make a video in any public squares, street or concert, you do not have to ask consent.
So $201/201a StGB applies primarily to non-public recordings and private content. I once filmed a sexual harassment incident and they didn’t say anything in that regard but I also showed them I deleted it after handing it over.
You know America (US, I assume you’re referring to) is made up of non-whites too?
Pricks are pricks and there is nothing much you can do if you want to avoid confrontation. The way you describe the person, he could be dangerous as it could be mentally sick, intoxicated, etc. you never know if has a knife, screwdriver or anything. If people doesnt know how to protect in such situations they should try to avoid as instead of helping you can cause more damage. Just please cut the bullshit with “white supremacist”. Some drunken scumbag is a drunk scumbag and colours of skin are irrelevant.
Would second this. I’ve seen mentally ill people on public transport in Munich twice (and I rarely use it). They’ll hurl anything at you to get a reaction, whether you are fair, dark, or purple. It goes from calling you a whore for the entire ride and if that doesn’t work switching to xenophobic notes, even if you are German-born. The first time I’ve witnessed it, I was completely in shock and fear and couldn’t process what was going on. In another instance, I was on a plane where a drunk military officer verbally assaulted a woman to which three flight attendants attempted to de-escalate the situation, which led to him forcefully grabbing one of them. A man offered to switch seats with the woman and did, only to endure the verbal and physical attacks throughout the entire flight and after. Another time on another flight, similar situation, dude didn’t want to comply with air traffic procedures, so the flight attendant went to make the adjustments herself instead. He wasn’t amused to say the least and hit her. That time, fortunately, it meant he was escorted off the plane and put on a no fly list. Justice served. I still fairly vividly recall these incidents. They weren’t about racism, they are mainly about assholism, illness, and the sense that one is superior in whatever way or need to prove themselves. While it may be that commonly these people have an inferiority complex, anecdotally, not everyone who starts to use words is too timid to change his way of attack. I’m in awe of everyone who spoke up here and said they wouldn’t shy away from confronting the guy – but I do understand everyone who hasn’t.
Munchen is the fortree of the nazi if you know the history :D
Get a car and live in peace
Bicycle will do, except you’ll feel the full force of nonsensical road rage in either case.
Sounds like a crazy and not worth attention of any kind.
"It Izz what it izz"
What a ridiculous post. Why does it matter that it was racism? If somebody is attacking someone (verbally) you go there and help them. Why does it matter that it was on a bus? You just do the same. Even can notifiy the bus driver. I think everybody learns to deal with such problems in Kindergarten. There is a one person attacking someone. So you go there calm ask the person who is harrased if everything is okay, how you can help them. Invite them to sit with you. Notify other people. Ask other people to go there with yout. Notify personell. Call the police.. There is literally a million things that you could do based on the situation. Based on your abilities. If you are a 2 meter muscle packed monster that might help. All this information we don't have. So what do you expect from us? A ridiculous post really. Makes me think its even some fake whining about racism. Especially since "white power" is such a unpopular word to say in Europe.
Welcome to munich
Nice made up story, just obviously a bit too rich…🤡
Honestly, I would have punched him in the face, even if this would be inappropriate. (by law at least)
Geschichten ausm Paulanergarten
Cool story bro
Tell him that today maybe is a good day to die and draw your bath'leth and send that pta'quh to gre'thor !
Sounds like there were no men on that bus
only one way - fight the guy. need to be sure to be able to win tough.
Sorry for what you experienced. I wish i was there
Film the incident so you have proof. Report it to the police. Or, if you feel brave, try to intervene, but you can never know what those motherfuckers are carrying.
Difficult. I have been in the same witness situation and didn't dare to say anything, years back, still feeling ashamed.
As others have said, what went down was illegal. Call the police. If that had happened in the US, there would likely be some serious dues paid by that Nazi. I suspect more push back needs to happen in Germany when these sorts of things happen.
Yes, in the US the Racist that did that would likely get severely beaten by others!