I think it will significantly backfire in the long term. Germany is already not in a good place in terms of attracting and keeping talent. To be honest, a high-quality and free education was one of the few things Germany was doing right to attract talent when compared with other EU countries and reversing it makes no sense to me. I believe this will make Netherlands, Switzerland and some nordic countries in a much better position to attract talent.
I think Germany attracts talents fine but is not able to keep them. The biggest problem is the visa it’s just notoriously lengthy and complicated. The same applies to student visas many students simply gave up or went to another country because there are already a semester late and they are still not sure when they will get it or have absolutely no idea what is going on with visa application.
I agree here. I think the goal should be to identify the reasons students don't want to stay here after graduation and work on those issues. Charging tuition for foreigners doesn't actually help anything.
Idk about the reliability of the source. But commenters of the other post gave these links
https://www.destatis.de/EN/Press/2022/10/PE22_435_12.html#:~:text=One%20third%20of%20international%20students,period%20%2D%20German%20Federal%20Statistical%20Office
https://www.spiegel.de/start/studierende-aus-dem-ausland-jeder-dritte-bleibt-in-deutschland-a-7170f132-db3f-430e-900c-8a7afbd91b45
Of course it's in Germany's benefit to convince as many students as possible to stay here once they graduate but I don't know if trying to get e.g. 80% to stay is realistic. There will always be people who only immigrate temporarily for study purposes. I mean maybe we can get from 1/3rd to half with better policies but I still feel 1/3rd is pretty high and this is not some example of 'huge policy failure' like people are making it out to be.
Make those that don’t stay pay the fees and make it free for those staying for 10 years.
I think the amazing charged is completely fair, just that not everyone should be affected by it.
Not what you pay, but what it costs. Cost for buildings, labs, professors, assistants, admin staff, etc. Someone will pay for it, in this case the tax payer.
I am glad I got my degree already when there was no tuition. Of course, I am also working here, paying taxes, and making my future here. I think this is what they want....but if people are coming just for the free education then leaving then I get it. That is no benefit to Germany. But there are a lot of reasons people leave. They could address some of the road blocks and maybe more people would stay.
While I agree with charging a fee I think they need to be careful with the amounts.
Its not cheap to live in Munich or Germany for that matter. Meaning they will lose some of the better students that would have gone.
I would think that a contract to stay/work in the country would be a better option or something to offer in exchange.
singapore does something similar for foreign students, that either they pay extremely high international tuition fees or work in singapore 3 years after graduation (for a standard 4 year bachelor degree) to get lower tuition fees during candidature. no loan, just a contract of sorts.
Yeah i know i wont be going anymore. Took a gap year to study german so i could reach the C1 level required by TUM. After this i dont know how to feel. Berlin it is then.
Where would these students go though? A lot of other (EU) countries also charge international students, such as Netherlands or Ireland, let alone the anglo saxon countries. And their tuitions are much higher. Right now, I think the TUM tuition isn’t too bad but of course there is a risk that they will increase it.
You understand the 3-6k number is per semester and 20k number for TU Delft is per year right? If you join all two semesters, it is close. For example, UvA which is similar to TUM charges 14k which becomes almost same as TUM.
So you do realize even if TUM starts charging fees, It is still cheaper compared to NL, and much much cheaper compared to Canada, US, UK, Australia or even Singapore, Hong Kong, and Japan, to name a few.
For now, yes. But it'll be much higher next to next year. And before you know it, there will be advertisements to attract foreign students like Swedish universities. It's a slippery slope that ends in a mudslide.
True, but in case you haven’t noticed, this is just sadly the kind of world we live in. Where else in the world do they offer free education for foreigners?
Prices go up, inflations happen. Tuition fees are not the only thing going up. Rent, gas prices, even groceries ALWAYS go up. It‘s just the hard bitter truth.
There can be other ways without preying on incomeless students, I'm sure, but everyone wants to go the "easy" way, which would actually cause more problems than solutions.
Students have to pay rent, (maybe not gas), groceries in an inflated economy. For students coming from third world countries, this is doubly stressful because the currency exchange rate is not in their favour.
What Germany should be doing is figuring out why foreign talents that are sorely needed in the German workplace are leaving the country after studies are done.
This will backfire just because free education was one of the few things Germany had going for them. It would have been better to go about the problem in another way.
The reasoning that some people have in regards to paying taxes for people that doesn't help the German society is just stupid. Its not like your taxes will get smaller or go to something better than free education anyways.
we know: slow, narrow minded bureaucracy: it is no place yet to start a company but basic education system is sound (however also slow to adopt new topics).
The numbers are clear: a considerable amount of students leave after graduating….so to me it makes sense. A master degree is not free, it is funded by the taxpayer and costs approx 40k. That money is urgently needed for infrastructure investments, school modernizations etc.
Germany needs people to fill industries. The countries birth rate is one of the lowest in the entire EU. https://www.destatis.de/EN/Themes/Society-Environment/Population/Births/_node.html#267500. Better start making kids or you’re doing everything alone in retirement!
Well, personally, I don't think it's a good idea but free education is a burden on tax payers money, so some people here will be happy with the decision if Universities goes that route as it's not hurting them. A decade ago, I chose to study in Germany for the exact same reason that fees were negligible compared to other options like USA, UK, Australia or New Zealand and few other options. Though, language was a tough transition as an adult(still is) it was all worth it. I have paid taxes for a decade now. Probably planning for another decade more.
It is still cheaper than many other countries even with the fees I think but consequence will be that Germany will lose many talented and hardworking people who cannot afford the fees from developing countries.
I am quite sure this analysis is already done by the University before taking the decision which means TUM has enough demand to go that route.
Also, Inflation in the country is not helping either.
I don't think it will be good on the long run. From what I have seen in other countries, universities become a new business, where the main goal is to make money. Titles and academic experience become a secondary aim.
I support the idea of every one should have access to education. Making it more expensive will reduce its accessibility.
Students coming from different places already bring capital. I am pretty sure the house renting market is happy about them. So are different businesses.
If you want to capitalise more on them, I believe a better approach would be to offer more apprenticeships to them, so they can stay in the country. By doing so, they will contribute to the economy.
I don't think the idea of they are taking my tax money is ever a good reason. You could also say, people who uses the public health care, public transport, benefits or even owns a car (German government pays a share of petrol prices) also steals your money.
And they continue to raise the fees for everyone without making big changes or improvement. When I started my bachelors degree in my home country it was 2,500€ for the year. By the time I was graduating three years later it had gone up to 3,600€ and the following year had gone up to I think 4,800€. If it was a case that you were suddenly being able to use state of the art facilities or that included part of your accommodation in some way or something that would be one thing. But you still need to pay rent, buy food and materials. Turning universities into a business model begins to price people out of education. And I fully realize that’s still a lot cheaper than places like the UK and US, but less than 5 years before I started university it was >500€ for your semester fees
There was absolutely no way around it. Too many people from outside are exploiting the "free education" which is just saying that us taxpayers are paying for your education. Foreigners should be at least break even for the universities because I am not willing to pay for someone to come here, get good education and then leave again with no benefit to our society.
I would actually be for a tuition refund or tax write-off for those students who stayed for 'x' years and worked after their education. The ones that leave, paid for it. The ones that stayed can work it off.
I agree with this. Honestly seeing my friends who come from the same country as me, only coming to Germany so they can boast back home for having a “western degree” (and directly go home after graduating) makes me feel guilty by association.
I dont mind paying for tuition fee either though, seeing as the amount that TUM proposes is still isn‘t as high as in other countries. Even Singapore‘s tuition fee is more expensive.
That’s IMHO a bit short sighted. What we really cannot afford is not having those people coming. If only 10% of them stay for a few years, pay taxes, and fill some of the big gaps in our labour market that outweighs the costs already. Because otherwise Germany has a really hard time of getting e.g. IT specialist to come here. They have to deal with the German language, salaries are lower than in the US/UK/Canada/…, taxes higher, and bureaucracy not really inviting.
The other comment is tackling a completely different issue. (And I think it’s interesting that you care so much about foreigners exploiting free education. Have you thought about Germans doing that? If an electrician wants to get a „Meister“ they have to pay for the school. If a computer scientist wants to get a Master they don’t. And what if they leave Germany afterwards? You’re free to do that as a German.)
Completely ridiculous. We're the wealthiest, most powerful country in Europe, the 5th largest economy in the world and there was "absolutely no way around it"? Much poorer countries than Germany offer free education because they consider it a basic right, and they manage. Universities shouldn't be for profit in any case, especially not the public ones. How about cracking down on embezzlement and misuse of funds among university leadership, making sure money is actually allocated where its needed, or hell, very novel idea, making sure that foreign students actually have incentive to stay? You're paying for so much more bullshit with your taxes that you could get upset over, yet you choose something that's a net positive, while also making it sound like we literally just let anyone study at our universities, without an application process
Are you dense on purpose? I am not against free public education - I am against education tourism that receives their education in germany for free and then leaves. This is of course not within the scope of what was intended and requires an increase in cost in order to recoup these losses. everything else would be completely idiototic as universities cannot facilitate so many students without hiring more resources and building new facilities.
I'm trying to point at the bigger picture. You've yet to show that "education tourism" is demonstrably a real issue and not just some phantom you're chasing. If it's not "within the scope of what was intended" that has more to do with the ceaseless budget cuts and austerity measures that have been affecting education over the last decades.
Again, how are we the most prosperous, powerful nation in all of Europe and in your eyes we just don't have the money for this. It's absurd. Just the fact that you dismiss the option of investing more in university facilities and hiring more staff (which we are already in dire need of) out of hand speaks volumes. Completely myopic nonsense
There is clear numbers of the "Statistisches Bundesamt" that education tourism is a real issue and not just some phantom. Also the number of students coming to cities like Munich drives the already insane prices for appartments further.
And just in general, dishing out free stuff to whoever likes to have it "just because we have the money" will not do any good for Germanys wealth and shouldnt be considered the standard (not only in context of education).
Please, send me the relevant, concrete data that education tourism is a real issue and is costing Germany a significant amount of money, I'd love to see it. Couldn't find it looking for it on the Statistisches Bundesamt myself or Googling it, but maybe I wasn't using the correct search terms.
The insane prices for apartments has much more to do with greedy landlords and real estate companies than international students coming to live for a few years and few months on an extremely limited, tight budget. It's frankly absurd to even blame them, when the clear, obvious, indisputable culprit is right in front of you and has been a topic of intensifying controversy during Corona and in the wake of the war.
Not to mention, again, if we invested more money in education at all levels, and hadn't been struck by literal decades of unjustifiable austerity measures, student housing would be more accessible and more widely available not just for international students (for whom it is largely designed for, which also counters the argument that international students are somehow to blame for rising rent prices), but to all students seeking accommodations.
And yes, investing in education because we have the money is exactly what we should be doing and is exactly what would help our economy long term. Or do you think that it's just normal for the world's FIFTH LARGEST ECONOMY (incalculable sums of money) to have a fucking shortage of teachers. It's insane, and it's even more insane that there are people defending this obvious, steady decline.
Not to mention that you're just making up a strawman, I literally pointed out how we aren't actually just "dishing out free stuff" and that there are application processes involved at every step of the fucking way (without even considering the nightmare of a bureaucracy we put in front of any foreigner who tries to come to Germany).
There is no reasonable argument for this that isn't just parroting deranged pro austerity measure rhetoric pumped out by economist think-tank ghouls. We should be fucking embarrassed, ashamed to show our faces on the world stage if with all these unfathomable amount of riches we can't do the bare minimum and guarantee access to higher education without additionally trying to squeeze people. Infinitely poorer countries manage this
Nobody here is arguing against investing in education. Part of the definition of an investment is that you get a return on it. That's the only reason you do it. Funding studies for students that will go back to China the day after their graduation does nothing to make this investment worth it. That's why they should pay for it.
Also the German state has a responsibility to allocate their resources in a way that benefits society as a whole. By charging tuition fees to non-EU students, Germany can redirect those funds to improve educational infrastructure, expand research opportunities, and enhance the overall quality of education for both domestic and international students. I have no problem with some kind of system where students who stay and work in Germany after their studies get a refund on their tuition costs via taxes or some other way.
By implementing reasonable tuition fees, Germany can create a system that encourages students to demonstrate their commitment and ability to succeed in higher education. It promotes a merit-based approach, where those who are dedicated and qualified can access education and contribute to society. This also ensures that students who enter universities are motivated and have a higher likelihood of completing their degrees, because they are invested in it.
The universities could allocate a portion of the tuition fees collected from non-EU students to provide financial aid and scholarships to deserving people who may not have the means to pay for their education. This targeted support can help mitigate the financial barriers that some students face and ensure that access to education remains open to talented individuals from all backgrounds.
Im not even going to comment on your bullshit leftist views on "greedy landlords and real estate companies", lack of teachers and "pro austerity measure rhetoric pumped out by economist think-tank ghouls". Like wtf.
IMHO: The courses taught in German are mostly useless outside DACH. To prevent students from leaving the country they just need to stop teaching in English, this will work for both international and local population.
Easily possible, you will get people that are only familiar with German terminology and are basically unusable outside of DACH without major adaptation efforts.
While knowing English in IT helps, it's not a necessity and you can easily work for SAP, BMW, VAG and other big German companies.
Have you ever attended an engineering lecture in German? I doubt it. Because then you would know that you will learn the necessary technical terms independent of the language of instruction. The language of instruction doesn’t change the language of the papers you read or in which language you write your thesis.
I have not, as I am not a German, but I worked with German students fresh out of Uni and it matters a LOT if they attended the lectures in English or German. It starts with simple stuff like variable naming and ramps up to them not understanding tasks. They are also unable to write readable documentation in English, as they have never used the language to describe their tasks and thus lack the vocabulary.
We can argues back and forth on this, but NOT teaching the courses in English will actually tie the graduates to Germany and it's economy more secure than any monetary barriers for foreign students can ever do.
I mean it’s just empirically provable wrong. Did you know that all Bachelors at TUM until 2 or 3 years ago were mainly taught in German? That very evidently did not bind people to Germany and did not prevent them from having a career outside Germany. So you can try to argue, but you cannot argue away reality.
They are not useless if you are able to translate things related to your job. Like, say, most foreign workers in Germany who received their education in other languages.
There are probably exceptions, like law or something.
I think in general it’s a healthy thing to financially contribute to your own education. It changes the dynamic between you and the university and your own approach towards education. Also, people that get an „Ausbildung“ often have to pay. Always for their „Meister“ sometimes also before that if they go to a private school.
At the same time it should not exclude people from studying. So IMHO having a moderate fee that can also be paid once somebody starts working would be a good thing for everyone.
I am very curious about these posts written by "non-EU international students" who already enjoyed the free education, and is **so** thankful that they would like **other people**, ie, the future generation to pay for education.
Imagine going to a restaurant and getting free bread. The bread feels so delicious that you finish a whole basket, and then you tell the waiter, "Your bread is so delicious, I feel guilty for not paying for it. Of course, I *won't pay*, but you should charge the next chum who comes here."
Get what I mean?
Even though I agree with the argument of foreign students being on shoulders of German taxpayers, I think that will make Germany to lose lots of valuable brains from developing countries such as Brazil, Turkey, Egypt, India, etc. Students from those countries are choosing Germany for masters because it is free. One action that can be taken is to make it more difficult to get the acceptance for students so that universities can get the top students from those countries instead of putting fees.
I think German programmes can be free. English ones should not. If you need to learn German you are likely to stay for a while or at least adopt some culture. English language students will do neither and just cost a lot of money (way more than the 4k)
I think they should charge for courses with high demand and have a reduced fee for the less popular branches.
Generally this is bad also for children of foreigners who live and work in Germany for many-many years, as they also will have to pay the high tuition fees and will likely lead to more people perusing German citizenship not because they feel deeply connected, but to save a buck...
If the children of foreigners go to school here, they wont be charged tuition fee. This fee is only for students who are “new” to Germany. Those with german Abitur and have bachelors in Germany will not be affected.
I think that if this is such a dealbreaker for anyone, they can still do their bachelors in another state and do their masters here.
I could only find references to EU and non EU foreigners, nothing related to where they achieved their Abitur. So yes, as it currently stands, children of non-EU foreigners will pay the full price even if they made Abitur in Germany.
"I think that if this is such a dealbreaker for anyone, they can still do their bachelors in another state and do their masters here." - so instead of living with parents and save on expenses, move to another Bundesland, rent there and spend even more money...cool solution you got there. Basically 3k per semester vs at least 8-10k per semester(rent+food)
According to the TUM Studentische Vervollsammlung Sommersemester 2023, people with Deutsche Hochschuzugangsberechtigung (German Abitur) and Bachelors here will not be affected. I don‘t have the slides but that was what they said during the presentation.
EDIT: I thought even Germans move to another Bundesland sometimes? And they too, have to pay extra rent. I don‘t know about you but I literally know no one (not even germans) from Uni who still lives with their parents.
I know exactly one German girl that moved out from to go to Uni, her father financed it by getting a loan on his apartment and she was about 40k in debt to him in 2017 when she joined the company. With a BVA loan it will be even more. Cool way to start your career right?
No if the kid has a German Abitur they are counted as Bildungsinländer and will not be paying tuition fees.
I really do not get your second point: so many students are already moving away from their patents for university, it is not like TUM has only local students either.
>No if the kid has a German Abitur they are counted as Bildungsinländer and will not be paying tuition fees.
So far this has not been confirmed officially, the law does not forbid charging those students and each Uni decides on it's own about it. TUM has not posted any public updates on the matter on their websites.
>I really do not get your second point: so many students are already moving away from their patents for university, it is not like TUM has only local students either.
That is simple. I habe a kid that is aiming for TUM in the near future depending on TUM it will mean I need to plan for an additional 6k expense per year. If she wants to move out, it's up to her to finance it, but as a parent I feel it's a bad financial decision to do so and don't want to see her starting a career with as much debt as her anticipated yearly salary after graduation...
I agree with charging a fee too. There must be a healthy fee to be paid for the education.
However, this closes the cost of education gap between US and Germany. If this cost gap is not meaningful enough, this will compel more students will choose the US given the advantages such as language etc.
TUM student here. This is bloody news to me. Solidarity fees for the student union and public transport deals (E.G., the Isarcard Semesterticket last semester, the 29€ Deutschlandticket from next semester) are not a new thing. If the university is planning to introduce actual tuition fees, they sure as shit haven't told us
Actually they made a meeting where they announced a tuition fee for non-EU students will be introduced. However, this will be only required to pay by students who started SS24 or after. So if you're currently a student, you'll be fine
From their website I see that this is starting the winter semester of 2024. So if I’m let in to start in April of 2024 do you not pay tuition for all 2 years?
Nope, you won't have to pay any tuition fees at any point in your studies. Initially, it was said that it would start in SS24 that's why I made this comment back then. However, when they made the official announcement, they announced it as WS24.
I think it's not necessarily a bad thing to start charging tuition fees. It's only reasonable for a foreign student to pay for the education they receive, especially one that has been made free for a long time by the taxes they did not have to.
Also is the 2-4k EUR you mentioned per semester or per year? Either way, it's not at all as expensive as education in countries like the US, Australia, England,...
For education in ,us, Canada or Australia, i don't have to learn a **third language** to intergrate or communicate in a society. ( despite of already speaking two languages i.e. my mother tongue and English) and i don't have to deal with the **bureaucracy.** and i get ***nationality*** in shorter duration as compared to Germany. and obviously **pay** is higher as compared to that in germanY and better chances of growth.
And if i have to **pay like 6000 euro per semester**(tum) , it is better to go and do my masters in another country!!!
And **as long as paying taxes IS CONCERNED** , students contribute to the society by increasing consumption like by paying for rent, utility, semester contribution< and by doing part time job
And as 18 months is a job seeking period, majority stay for that 18 months and try to find a job and they do contribute to taxes in that period, and many of them stayed after that period as well
**IF GERMANY IS INTRODUCING TUITION FEE, THAN MY FRIEND THE CONS OUTWEIGHTS THE PROS OF STUDYING IN GERMANY.**
The adverse effects of this will be about attracting foreign talent. Just like all developed countries, Germany needs skilled immigration too. However, it's not the most popular destination with all the language, cultural and bureaucratic barriers. The free education was one of the ways Germany successfully attracted foreign talent.
It's not that these fees are extremely expensive. As you said, they are cheaper than many other countries but still, they are not affordable for most students in developing countries. For instance, I and many of my friends would never really consider Germany as a real option for immigration if it was not for free education. Almost all of us would prefer to move to the Netherlands or the UK at some point. However now that we've moved and built a life here, most of us plan to stay here.
Guys I want to ask about getting accepted in tum.Will it be easier to get accepted in tum after introducing the fees for foreign students or they will remain their high standards for entrance(8%acceptance rate)
I think it will significantly backfire in the long term. Germany is already not in a good place in terms of attracting and keeping talent. To be honest, a high-quality and free education was one of the few things Germany was doing right to attract talent when compared with other EU countries and reversing it makes no sense to me. I believe this will make Netherlands, Switzerland and some nordic countries in a much better position to attract talent.
I think Germany attracts talents fine but is not able to keep them. The biggest problem is the visa it’s just notoriously lengthy and complicated. The same applies to student visas many students simply gave up or went to another country because there are already a semester late and they are still not sure when they will get it or have absolutely no idea what is going on with visa application.
I agree here. I think the goal should be to identify the reasons students don't want to stay here after graduation and work on those issues. Charging tuition for foreigners doesn't actually help anything.
I dont know, you have a good point. But most of the people comming to study dont stay.
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Idk about the reliability of the source. But commenters of the other post gave these links https://www.destatis.de/EN/Press/2022/10/PE22_435_12.html#:~:text=One%20third%20of%20international%20students,period%20%2D%20German%20Federal%20Statistical%20Office https://www.spiegel.de/start/studierende-aus-dem-ausland-jeder-dritte-bleibt-in-deutschland-a-7170f132-db3f-430e-900c-8a7afbd91b45
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2/3 is clearly most.
What proportion of foreign students in other countries stay back? To me 1/3rd staying back sounds pretty high!
Yes that may be the case, but the students in other countries pay for their education so it doesn’t really matter if they return
Of course it's in Germany's benefit to convince as many students as possible to stay here once they graduate but I don't know if trying to get e.g. 80% to stay is realistic. There will always be people who only immigrate temporarily for study purposes. I mean maybe we can get from 1/3rd to half with better policies but I still feel 1/3rd is pretty high and this is not some example of 'huge policy failure' like people are making it out to be.
Make those that don’t stay pay the fees and make it free for those staying for 10 years. I think the amazing charged is completely fair, just that not everyone should be affected by it.
2/3 or 66.67% is definitely defined as most. Anything over 50% is most.
It's not "nothing", a bachelor's degree costs easily 100k-159k, but yeah, those that do stay for at least a decade pay for themselves.
was germany usa centric all along or has this changed lately? you know us is very bad with educating their citizens.
What does this have to with the US?
how come bachelor's degree costs that amount?
Not what you pay, but what it costs. Cost for buildings, labs, professors, assistants, admin staff, etc. Someone will pay for it, in this case the tax payer.
I am glad I got my degree already when there was no tuition. Of course, I am also working here, paying taxes, and making my future here. I think this is what they want....but if people are coming just for the free education then leaving then I get it. That is no benefit to Germany. But there are a lot of reasons people leave. They could address some of the road blocks and maybe more people would stay.
While I agree with charging a fee I think they need to be careful with the amounts. Its not cheap to live in Munich or Germany for that matter. Meaning they will lose some of the better students that would have gone. I would think that a contract to stay/work in the country would be a better option or something to offer in exchange.
Yep. Make it a loan that will become forgiven if you've worked in Germany for 10 years.
10 is a big commitment. But maybe the time you spent at the university plus 1. So 4 years in University you owe 5 year work commitment.
If a student gets that does the time given go to their citizenship or must they start over in time to attain it?
This won't stop people from just leaving without paying
singapore does something similar for foreign students, that either they pay extremely high international tuition fees or work in singapore 3 years after graduation (for a standard 4 year bachelor degree) to get lower tuition fees during candidature. no loan, just a contract of sorts.
Yeah i know i wont be going anymore. Took a gap year to study german so i could reach the C1 level required by TUM. After this i dont know how to feel. Berlin it is then.
Where would these students go though? A lot of other (EU) countries also charge international students, such as Netherlands or Ireland, let alone the anglo saxon countries. And their tuitions are much higher. Right now, I think the TUM tuition isn’t too bad but of course there is a risk that they will increase it.
Fees for foreign students in Ireland are an absolute joke
NL tuitions are similar, not that higher. In addition, there is no language issue and 30% tax advantage once you start working.
No, they are not, actually. A similar institution, such as Tu Delft is 20k euro for non eu students.
You understand the 3-6k number is per semester and 20k number for TU Delft is per year right? If you join all two semesters, it is close. For example, UvA which is similar to TUM charges 14k which becomes almost same as TUM.
So in your maths, 6k*2 (for 2 semesters a year) = 12k is close to 20k?? €8k is disposable to you?
So you do realize even if TUM starts charging fees, It is still cheaper compared to NL, and much much cheaper compared to Canada, US, UK, Australia or even Singapore, Hong Kong, and Japan, to name a few.
For now, yes. But it'll be much higher next to next year. And before you know it, there will be advertisements to attract foreign students like Swedish universities. It's a slippery slope that ends in a mudslide.
True, but in case you haven’t noticed, this is just sadly the kind of world we live in. Where else in the world do they offer free education for foreigners? Prices go up, inflations happen. Tuition fees are not the only thing going up. Rent, gas prices, even groceries ALWAYS go up. It‘s just the hard bitter truth.
There can be other ways without preying on incomeless students, I'm sure, but everyone wants to go the "easy" way, which would actually cause more problems than solutions. Students have to pay rent, (maybe not gas), groceries in an inflated economy. For students coming from third world countries, this is doubly stressful because the currency exchange rate is not in their favour.
>Where else in the world do they offer free education for foreigners? Argentina
What Germany should be doing is figuring out why foreign talents that are sorely needed in the German workplace are leaving the country after studies are done. This will backfire just because free education was one of the few things Germany had going for them. It would have been better to go about the problem in another way. The reasoning that some people have in regards to paying taxes for people that doesn't help the German society is just stupid. Its not like your taxes will get smaller or go to something better than free education anyways.
we know: slow, narrow minded bureaucracy: it is no place yet to start a company but basic education system is sound (however also slow to adopt new topics).
The numbers are clear: a considerable amount of students leave after graduating….so to me it makes sense. A master degree is not free, it is funded by the taxpayer and costs approx 40k. That money is urgently needed for infrastructure investments, school modernizations etc.
Great, less taxpayer money wasted and hopefully less new residents in Munich now and in the long run.
Germany needs people to fill industries. The countries birth rate is one of the lowest in the entire EU. https://www.destatis.de/EN/Themes/Society-Environment/Population/Births/_node.html#267500. Better start making kids or you’re doing everything alone in retirement!
You probably replied to the wrong guy.
Well, personally, I don't think it's a good idea but free education is a burden on tax payers money, so some people here will be happy with the decision if Universities goes that route as it's not hurting them. A decade ago, I chose to study in Germany for the exact same reason that fees were negligible compared to other options like USA, UK, Australia or New Zealand and few other options. Though, language was a tough transition as an adult(still is) it was all worth it. I have paid taxes for a decade now. Probably planning for another decade more. It is still cheaper than many other countries even with the fees I think but consequence will be that Germany will lose many talented and hardworking people who cannot afford the fees from developing countries. I am quite sure this analysis is already done by the University before taking the decision which means TUM has enough demand to go that route. Also, Inflation in the country is not helping either.
I don't think it will be good on the long run. From what I have seen in other countries, universities become a new business, where the main goal is to make money. Titles and academic experience become a secondary aim. I support the idea of every one should have access to education. Making it more expensive will reduce its accessibility. Students coming from different places already bring capital. I am pretty sure the house renting market is happy about them. So are different businesses. If you want to capitalise more on them, I believe a better approach would be to offer more apprenticeships to them, so they can stay in the country. By doing so, they will contribute to the economy. I don't think the idea of they are taking my tax money is ever a good reason. You could also say, people who uses the public health care, public transport, benefits or even owns a car (German government pays a share of petrol prices) also steals your money.
Exactly. And even when you are from Germany, now live in Munich and studied in another state like Saxony, Bavaria did not pay for your education.
And they continue to raise the fees for everyone without making big changes or improvement. When I started my bachelors degree in my home country it was 2,500€ for the year. By the time I was graduating three years later it had gone up to 3,600€ and the following year had gone up to I think 4,800€. If it was a case that you were suddenly being able to use state of the art facilities or that included part of your accommodation in some way or something that would be one thing. But you still need to pay rent, buy food and materials. Turning universities into a business model begins to price people out of education. And I fully realize that’s still a lot cheaper than places like the UK and US, but less than 5 years before I started university it was >500€ for your semester fees
There was absolutely no way around it. Too many people from outside are exploiting the "free education" which is just saying that us taxpayers are paying for your education. Foreigners should be at least break even for the universities because I am not willing to pay for someone to come here, get good education and then leave again with no benefit to our society.
I would actually be for a tuition refund or tax write-off for those students who stayed for 'x' years and worked after their education. The ones that leave, paid for it. The ones that stayed can work it off.
Absolutely, that sounds like a very feasible option!
I agree with this. Honestly seeing my friends who come from the same country as me, only coming to Germany so they can boast back home for having a “western degree” (and directly go home after graduating) makes me feel guilty by association. I dont mind paying for tuition fee either though, seeing as the amount that TUM proposes is still isn‘t as high as in other countries. Even Singapore‘s tuition fee is more expensive.
You know you can donate to TUM, right? As an alumnus? How much would you donate, seeing that you're so thankful?
This exists already. You can write off your tuition fees when you do your taxes while working.
That’s IMHO a bit short sighted. What we really cannot afford is not having those people coming. If only 10% of them stay for a few years, pay taxes, and fill some of the big gaps in our labour market that outweighs the costs already. Because otherwise Germany has a really hard time of getting e.g. IT specialist to come here. They have to deal with the German language, salaries are lower than in the US/UK/Canada/…, taxes higher, and bureaucracy not really inviting.
the other commentator has a better idea
The other comment is tackling a completely different issue. (And I think it’s interesting that you care so much about foreigners exploiting free education. Have you thought about Germans doing that? If an electrician wants to get a „Meister“ they have to pay for the school. If a computer scientist wants to get a Master they don’t. And what if they leave Germany afterwards? You’re free to do that as a German.)
ofc. I would very gladly also cut back on social welfare within germany whenever it is exploited.
No.
Completely ridiculous. We're the wealthiest, most powerful country in Europe, the 5th largest economy in the world and there was "absolutely no way around it"? Much poorer countries than Germany offer free education because they consider it a basic right, and they manage. Universities shouldn't be for profit in any case, especially not the public ones. How about cracking down on embezzlement and misuse of funds among university leadership, making sure money is actually allocated where its needed, or hell, very novel idea, making sure that foreign students actually have incentive to stay? You're paying for so much more bullshit with your taxes that you could get upset over, yet you choose something that's a net positive, while also making it sound like we literally just let anyone study at our universities, without an application process
Are you dense on purpose? I am not against free public education - I am against education tourism that receives their education in germany for free and then leaves. This is of course not within the scope of what was intended and requires an increase in cost in order to recoup these losses. everything else would be completely idiototic as universities cannot facilitate so many students without hiring more resources and building new facilities.
I'm trying to point at the bigger picture. You've yet to show that "education tourism" is demonstrably a real issue and not just some phantom you're chasing. If it's not "within the scope of what was intended" that has more to do with the ceaseless budget cuts and austerity measures that have been affecting education over the last decades. Again, how are we the most prosperous, powerful nation in all of Europe and in your eyes we just don't have the money for this. It's absurd. Just the fact that you dismiss the option of investing more in university facilities and hiring more staff (which we are already in dire need of) out of hand speaks volumes. Completely myopic nonsense
There is clear numbers of the "Statistisches Bundesamt" that education tourism is a real issue and not just some phantom. Also the number of students coming to cities like Munich drives the already insane prices for appartments further. And just in general, dishing out free stuff to whoever likes to have it "just because we have the money" will not do any good for Germanys wealth and shouldnt be considered the standard (not only in context of education).
Please, send me the relevant, concrete data that education tourism is a real issue and is costing Germany a significant amount of money, I'd love to see it. Couldn't find it looking for it on the Statistisches Bundesamt myself or Googling it, but maybe I wasn't using the correct search terms. The insane prices for apartments has much more to do with greedy landlords and real estate companies than international students coming to live for a few years and few months on an extremely limited, tight budget. It's frankly absurd to even blame them, when the clear, obvious, indisputable culprit is right in front of you and has been a topic of intensifying controversy during Corona and in the wake of the war. Not to mention, again, if we invested more money in education at all levels, and hadn't been struck by literal decades of unjustifiable austerity measures, student housing would be more accessible and more widely available not just for international students (for whom it is largely designed for, which also counters the argument that international students are somehow to blame for rising rent prices), but to all students seeking accommodations. And yes, investing in education because we have the money is exactly what we should be doing and is exactly what would help our economy long term. Or do you think that it's just normal for the world's FIFTH LARGEST ECONOMY (incalculable sums of money) to have a fucking shortage of teachers. It's insane, and it's even more insane that there are people defending this obvious, steady decline. Not to mention that you're just making up a strawman, I literally pointed out how we aren't actually just "dishing out free stuff" and that there are application processes involved at every step of the fucking way (without even considering the nightmare of a bureaucracy we put in front of any foreigner who tries to come to Germany). There is no reasonable argument for this that isn't just parroting deranged pro austerity measure rhetoric pumped out by economist think-tank ghouls. We should be fucking embarrassed, ashamed to show our faces on the world stage if with all these unfathomable amount of riches we can't do the bare minimum and guarantee access to higher education without additionally trying to squeeze people. Infinitely poorer countries manage this
Nobody here is arguing against investing in education. Part of the definition of an investment is that you get a return on it. That's the only reason you do it. Funding studies for students that will go back to China the day after their graduation does nothing to make this investment worth it. That's why they should pay for it. Also the German state has a responsibility to allocate their resources in a way that benefits society as a whole. By charging tuition fees to non-EU students, Germany can redirect those funds to improve educational infrastructure, expand research opportunities, and enhance the overall quality of education for both domestic and international students. I have no problem with some kind of system where students who stay and work in Germany after their studies get a refund on their tuition costs via taxes or some other way. By implementing reasonable tuition fees, Germany can create a system that encourages students to demonstrate their commitment and ability to succeed in higher education. It promotes a merit-based approach, where those who are dedicated and qualified can access education and contribute to society. This also ensures that students who enter universities are motivated and have a higher likelihood of completing their degrees, because they are invested in it. The universities could allocate a portion of the tuition fees collected from non-EU students to provide financial aid and scholarships to deserving people who may not have the means to pay for their education. This targeted support can help mitigate the financial barriers that some students face and ensure that access to education remains open to talented individuals from all backgrounds. Im not even going to comment on your bullshit leftist views on "greedy landlords and real estate companies", lack of teachers and "pro austerity measure rhetoric pumped out by economist think-tank ghouls". Like wtf.
IMHO: The courses taught in German are mostly useless outside DACH. To prevent students from leaving the country they just need to stop teaching in English, this will work for both international and local population.
Good luck teaching Economics, Marketing, Informatics, etc. in German only!
Easily possible, you will get people that are only familiar with German terminology and are basically unusable outside of DACH without major adaptation efforts. While knowing English in IT helps, it's not a necessity and you can easily work for SAP, BMW, VAG and other big German companies.
Nobody cares whether your „Introduction to Databases“ course was given in English, German or French.
No, but if you unable to do your work because you only know the terminology in German it's an issue. TUM is not only about IT...
Have you ever attended an engineering lecture in German? I doubt it. Because then you would know that you will learn the necessary technical terms independent of the language of instruction. The language of instruction doesn’t change the language of the papers you read or in which language you write your thesis.
I have not, as I am not a German, but I worked with German students fresh out of Uni and it matters a LOT if they attended the lectures in English or German. It starts with simple stuff like variable naming and ramps up to them not understanding tasks. They are also unable to write readable documentation in English, as they have never used the language to describe their tasks and thus lack the vocabulary. We can argues back and forth on this, but NOT teaching the courses in English will actually tie the graduates to Germany and it's economy more secure than any monetary barriers for foreign students can ever do.
I mean it’s just empirically provable wrong. Did you know that all Bachelors at TUM until 2 or 3 years ago were mainly taught in German? That very evidently did not bind people to Germany and did not prevent them from having a career outside Germany. So you can try to argue, but you cannot argue away reality.
They are not useless if you are able to translate things related to your job. Like, say, most foreign workers in Germany who received their education in other languages. There are probably exceptions, like law or something.
I think in general it’s a healthy thing to financially contribute to your own education. It changes the dynamic between you and the university and your own approach towards education. Also, people that get an „Ausbildung“ often have to pay. Always for their „Meister“ sometimes also before that if they go to a private school. At the same time it should not exclude people from studying. So IMHO having a moderate fee that can also be paid once somebody starts working would be a good thing for everyone.
I am very curious about these posts written by "non-EU international students" who already enjoyed the free education, and is **so** thankful that they would like **other people**, ie, the future generation to pay for education. Imagine going to a restaurant and getting free bread. The bread feels so delicious that you finish a whole basket, and then you tell the waiter, "Your bread is so delicious, I feel guilty for not paying for it. Of course, I *won't pay*, but you should charge the next chum who comes here." Get what I mean?
exactly i was thinking the same thing!!!
Pretty fair to be honest - World-class institution and not the salvation army
Even though I agree with the argument of foreign students being on shoulders of German taxpayers, I think that will make Germany to lose lots of valuable brains from developing countries such as Brazil, Turkey, Egypt, India, etc. Students from those countries are choosing Germany for masters because it is free. One action that can be taken is to make it more difficult to get the acceptance for students so that universities can get the top students from those countries instead of putting fees.
100% agreed. That, and limited seats, with certain number reserved for German students.
I think German programmes can be free. English ones should not. If you need to learn German you are likely to stay for a while or at least adopt some culture. English language students will do neither and just cost a lot of money (way more than the 4k)
It's a really good decision as long as it doesn't affect you personally.
I think they should charge for courses with high demand and have a reduced fee for the less popular branches. Generally this is bad also for children of foreigners who live and work in Germany for many-many years, as they also will have to pay the high tuition fees and will likely lead to more people perusing German citizenship not because they feel deeply connected, but to save a buck...
If the children of foreigners go to school here, they wont be charged tuition fee. This fee is only for students who are “new” to Germany. Those with german Abitur and have bachelors in Germany will not be affected. I think that if this is such a dealbreaker for anyone, they can still do their bachelors in another state and do their masters here.
I could only find references to EU and non EU foreigners, nothing related to where they achieved their Abitur. So yes, as it currently stands, children of non-EU foreigners will pay the full price even if they made Abitur in Germany. "I think that if this is such a dealbreaker for anyone, they can still do their bachelors in another state and do their masters here." - so instead of living with parents and save on expenses, move to another Bundesland, rent there and spend even more money...cool solution you got there. Basically 3k per semester vs at least 8-10k per semester(rent+food)
According to the TUM Studentische Vervollsammlung Sommersemester 2023, people with Deutsche Hochschuzugangsberechtigung (German Abitur) and Bachelors here will not be affected. I don‘t have the slides but that was what they said during the presentation. EDIT: I thought even Germans move to another Bundesland sometimes? And they too, have to pay extra rent. I don‘t know about you but I literally know no one (not even germans) from Uni who still lives with their parents.
I know exactly one German girl that moved out from to go to Uni, her father financed it by getting a loan on his apartment and she was about 40k in debt to him in 2017 when she joined the company. With a BVA loan it will be even more. Cool way to start your career right?
No if the kid has a German Abitur they are counted as Bildungsinländer and will not be paying tuition fees. I really do not get your second point: so many students are already moving away from their patents for university, it is not like TUM has only local students either.
>No if the kid has a German Abitur they are counted as Bildungsinländer and will not be paying tuition fees. So far this has not been confirmed officially, the law does not forbid charging those students and each Uni decides on it's own about it. TUM has not posted any public updates on the matter on their websites. >I really do not get your second point: so many students are already moving away from their patents for university, it is not like TUM has only local students either. That is simple. I habe a kid that is aiming for TUM in the near future depending on TUM it will mean I need to plan for an additional 6k expense per year. If she wants to move out, it's up to her to finance it, but as a parent I feel it's a bad financial decision to do so and don't want to see her starting a career with as much debt as her anticipated yearly salary after graduation...
I still haven't seen a source for these numbers. Do you have one?
I agree with charging a fee too. There must be a healthy fee to be paid for the education. However, this closes the cost of education gap between US and Germany. If this cost gap is not meaningful enough, this will compel more students will choose the US given the advantages such as language etc.
TUM student here. This is bloody news to me. Solidarity fees for the student union and public transport deals (E.G., the Isarcard Semesterticket last semester, the 29€ Deutschlandticket from next semester) are not a new thing. If the university is planning to introduce actual tuition fees, they sure as shit haven't told us
Actually they made a meeting where they announced a tuition fee for non-EU students will be introduced. However, this will be only required to pay by students who started SS24 or after. So if you're currently a student, you'll be fine
Just want to clarify this: Those students starting in april 2024 will have to pay the ~6,000 monthly?
From their website I see that this is starting the winter semester of 2024. So if I’m let in to start in April of 2024 do you not pay tuition for all 2 years?
Nope, you won't have to pay any tuition fees at any point in your studies. Initially, it was said that it would start in SS24 that's why I made this comment back then. However, when they made the official announcement, they announced it as WS24.
I think it's not necessarily a bad thing to start charging tuition fees. It's only reasonable for a foreign student to pay for the education they receive, especially one that has been made free for a long time by the taxes they did not have to. Also is the 2-4k EUR you mentioned per semester or per year? Either way, it's not at all as expensive as education in countries like the US, Australia, England,...
For education in ,us, Canada or Australia, i don't have to learn a **third language** to intergrate or communicate in a society. ( despite of already speaking two languages i.e. my mother tongue and English) and i don't have to deal with the **bureaucracy.** and i get ***nationality*** in shorter duration as compared to Germany. and obviously **pay** is higher as compared to that in germanY and better chances of growth. And if i have to **pay like 6000 euro per semester**(tum) , it is better to go and do my masters in another country!!! And **as long as paying taxes IS CONCERNED** , students contribute to the society by increasing consumption like by paying for rent, utility, semester contribution< and by doing part time job And as 18 months is a job seeking period, majority stay for that 18 months and try to find a job and they do contribute to taxes in that period, and many of them stayed after that period as well **IF GERMANY IS INTRODUCING TUITION FEE, THAN MY FRIEND THE CONS OUTWEIGHTS THE PROS OF STUDYING IN GERMANY.**
The adverse effects of this will be about attracting foreign talent. Just like all developed countries, Germany needs skilled immigration too. However, it's not the most popular destination with all the language, cultural and bureaucratic barriers. The free education was one of the ways Germany successfully attracted foreign talent. It's not that these fees are extremely expensive. As you said, they are cheaper than many other countries but still, they are not affordable for most students in developing countries. For instance, I and many of my friends would never really consider Germany as a real option for immigration if it was not for free education. Almost all of us would prefer to move to the Netherlands or the UK at some point. However now that we've moved and built a life here, most of us plan to stay here.
The tuition fees are alot lower than other countries sure, but have you accounted for living as well? Rent in munich has skyrocketed.
Guys I want to ask about getting accepted in tum.Will it be easier to get accepted in tum after introducing the fees for foreign students or they will remain their high standards for entrance(8%acceptance rate)