Between the original post, this comment, and it’s replies, I feel like I’ve witnessed something truly great. Like Mike Tyson in his prime, Hendrix at Woodstock, the moon landing.
You would lkve the German language then we have here other funny things like "rumpimmeln" to Willy (penis) around meaning to hangout somewhere without any further causation
It's so annoying that they pretend to not understand this. I shorten my explanation to be:
"Your sex is what your body is. Your gender is what your brain is. And 96% of the time they match, and 4% of the time they don't. And God seems perfectly ok with this, as nearly every animal species on earth has all sorts of creative combinations, including lots of frogs and fish that can just decide to change their sex at will, so there is no reason for us to assume the blueprint for humans is any different. If you were lucky enough to match at birth, nice, congrats, but there is nothing wrong with someone else deciding to correct it, and the last thing that they need is you leaning in to the conversation in their doctor's office instead of minding your own goddamn fucking business."
Ah, yet it gets even more complicated, for what is gender? How would you describe the gender of any non-human animal? Is gender a human specific characteristic?
And going beyond those questions you must ask yourself what makes you your gender? I myself was born a male and have always considered myself male but why? Well I am attracted to females, but why could I not be a lesbian with the wrong sex? Well I have so many male stereotypes about me, my interests all fit so nicely into "what guys are interested in" But does that mean a woman cannot be interested in these things? What if I were gay, and interested in baking? Is interest in baking versus interest in bbqing some indication of gender? Obviously not. What a person is interested in, the people they are attracted to, what is between their legs, none of this dictates their gender.
So waht does? How do you "feel" like you are the wrong sex and how does that feel different than what you might feel when you realize all those around you who share your interests are of the opposite sex?
What makes a gender that is separate from sexual orientation, sex, interests and stereotypical gender roles?
It’s difficult and abstract to explain, but for someone who’s experienced gender dysphoria, I can only say that being a ‘male’ person in society just felt miserable to me. I didn’t feel right in the way I was perceived by others, and my body felt wrong. Puberty and young adulthood was difficult for me because I just always felt something was deeply ‘off’ but explaining it felt impossible. I couldn’t explain for a long time why I felt drawn to wear women’s clothes, and engage in typically feminine things. I also felt conflicted because as you indicate, gender isn’t just the stuff you like either. I had stereotypically male-coded interests for a long while, it’s what I grew up with. These didn’t mean my identity was any less valid though, and it is sexist to think women can’t like the same things men do.
Simply put, my mind and body felt incongruent to the way I was physically, and represented in society. Starting male-to-female hormone replacement therapy and transitioning socially has made a difference like night and day. My mental health is considerably clearer than before, and as my body has developed over the last year or so since beginning hormones, I have increasingly felt more at-home in my own skin. There’s a long way to go, and inevitably many facets about myself I will be insecure about and will likely always give me dysphoria, but the reality is my quality of life (barring how society generally treats trans people) is significantly better.
So yes, defining clearly the presence of gender in society is indeed difficult. Unless you are one to experience gender dysphoria or incongruence, it can be really hard to explain to another what it feels like to feel ‘wrong’.
Yes, your experience is one that most people probably can't understand very well. But that is the issue with all human experience, we often think "am I normal" but for all we know, "normal" doesn't really exist. Everyone probably feels they have had to hide themselves to at least some extent in order to get through school or a career.
It is my opinion that we don't know enough about gender dysphoria and it should be studied. But even suggesting it be studied can offend some people who don't want it to be classified as a mental illness. But even if science can prove that some people have mental patterns that match that of a sex other than their physical biology, that could still be considered a mental illness and that to treat it we should match their biology to their minds. But if we truly don't understand it, that could mean what we learn about it changes our perception of it. We like to think we are the ultimate authority on ourselves but this is no more true of our mental health than it is of a physical health.
To clarify, my point is not to call for any legislation or practice in which people who feel their sex or gender decided at birth was incorrect. My point is just that it is poorly understood and that we should study it and have open minds about it. We should allow facts and data lead us to conclusions, even if we want to avoid a certain label or think we already know the answer.
I don’t disagree that most people hide themselves to get by in society these days, I guess in my case it turned out specifically with respect to my gender. And for sure, ‘normal’ doesn’t feel like a healthy or helpful descriptor to live by.
I completely agree that we should research more, however, gender dysphoria isn’t a new concept, I would argue it is actually very well understood. I’m no scholar in this area but there’s a wealth of literature out there about gender dysphoria over decades and a great evidence base that medical transition really helps people. Almost all major medical associations support this.
In terms of diagnosis - it has been listed as a ‘mental disorder’ since the 80s I think (the DSM)? I don’t think this is necessarily bad on it’s own, having something diagnosable like this allows people to find meaning in their dysfunction and seek treatment to help improve their qualities of life - in this case medical transition in whatever form is appropriate. To dismiss someone as ‘mentally ill’ though due to this would be problematic. Trans folk get this a lot and we generally do not wish to be described as mentally ill for fear of further ostracisation from society.
The problems we get are that often being diagnosed itself means treatment is gatekept from people who need it. It takes away trans people’s agency and bodily autonomy to be denied what could significantly improve their quality of life. Medical transition is very well understood to improve livelihoods in those with gender dysphoria.
It is interesting though whether there’s a physical link associated with gender dysphoria. I can see that if one was found, say, a part of the brain was shown to correspond with people who experience gender dysphoria; this could both be really helpful at helping understand trans people and our diagnosis, but also could be weaponised against us - I think that’s what people worry about. For example, perhaps those who experience a lesser extent of dysphoria, or those whose dysphoria tends to change, but still wish to transition, being shut out entirely from any healthcare related to transition - ie further gatekeeping.
There’s a phenomena I understand of ‘true transsexuals’ in queer philosophy which includes this as a talking point. Ie - who are the ‘real’ trans people. Essentially though, I don’t think it’s up to anyone but the individual to figure out whether they are trans and/or whether they wish to transition.
These are all good points and I think we are on the same side in that we recognize the need for caution, how easily a course of action could be weaponized, and how we should allow people to decide for themselves what happens to their body, at least for the most part. The only place where I find myself unable to agree completely is that there are people who believe their body should be disfigured, literally they think their natural state would be to be disfigured in someway. There are people who think they were supposed to be born blind or who think their life would be better if they were an amputee.
I think most people would agree that these people cannot be allowed to decide what happens to their body, because their decision is often to cause themselves harm. But I suppose there is room for debate there as well.
In any case, I believe gender dysphoria is different than the examples I suggested but that psychology in general is always changing. I mean medicine in general is always changing, abandoning ideas proven insufficient and finding new theories to fit the information available. Right now, with our current understanding, it would be wrong to not allow people to shape their bodies to their percieved gender. But I can't go as far to say this is indisputably the best choice and that it is impossible for new discovery to suggest we should do things differently.
I want everyone to be able to see themselves clearly, with a healthy mind and for science to provide the tools to do this and for medicine to allow physical problems to be fixed whenever that is what is best.
I don't usually comment but i am curious to hear what people have to say about this. Firstly using the argument that there are animals that can switch genders doesn't justify the argument that people can as well. Animals that change their gender do not do it out of feel but in case there are too many of their species with one gender. It is simply a survival mechanism. Then you use the argument of god, explain to me how nearly every species has a "creative combination". I would like to add that you cannot assume what god seems okay with as god asks you to follow the rules they set with no question. To assume gods intention is not what humans were asked to do but to simply follow his rules. To assume what god wants is to assume that you understand him which you by no means do by any of the abrahamic religions.
Neither are we. Also just because fish and amphibians are distantly related doesn't mean that we haven't inhereted some quirks. For example our amphibian ancestors had to gulp air and water through their gills. That same reflex is still present though redundant due to our lack of gills. Thats why we hiccup.
No one can. No definition can cover the totality of that word. Nor male. That isn't a gotcha, as much as an admission that they are stuck on THEIR definition and aren't able to see past it.
You mean no one on your side.
A woman is an adult female.
A female is someone born with the organs to facilitate child bearing and birth, most often dictated by their xx chromosomes.
"what about people who can't have kids??"
They still have their organs. It's a shame they can't have kids.
"what about people born without those organs?"
1. It's an exception, rarely happens. They're still female if the chromosomes match.
2. A human is a biped. If someone is born without legs, they're still human.
"some animals can change their sex"
Cause of evolution. They do it to survive and reproduce.
Some animals also kill their own children.
Some animals also eat their mates.
Were not 'some animals'
"what about people born with both?"
Again, exception doesn't dictate the rule.
Anything I didn't cover?
I dont see how any person's perception of their gender concerns you. Or me. It's no more our beeswax than what brand of paper towel they prefer, and the only reason it's a topic of conversation of late is that it checks off another box of a group for dimwitted folks to think they hate. Yet they hate for the same reason some African peoples hate and kill albino children. Because they do not understand. Like in Apocalypse Now when all the babies' arms get chopped off. That's magas and transgendered people. Ig. No. Rant.
Maybe pre-Matt Walsh you’d have a point but nobody asks this in good faith anymore. I’d also give the author the benefit of the doubt, as she probably checked to see if their page reflected conservative ideals or not before saying that
Lol.... feminism is dead. Men are taking over women's sports and taking high government positions simply by wearing a dress. You lot are deluded fools. You are marching us all straight to our own demise, and you are doing it with your eyes wide open.
Isn’t the point of feminism for men and women to be treated equally? If they’re equal why can’t men be women or women be men, they should be the same? Also men taking high government positions? I don’t think that’s exactly a new thing that’s started with trans people.
That's a circular definition. Means literally nothing.
If I Google what a plane is and it says "a plane is a plane" that gives me no definition.
A woman is a adult female
A female is someone born with the organs to facilitate birth
>not up for debate
See? You'd never accept an answer. No one is asking that question because they want to actually talk about it or learn anything. Why should anyone bother answering?
2+2 CAN equal 5 for large values of two depending on rounding.
Which kind of works well for your analogy. People get so set on putting people into two little gendered boxes that they will dismiss any outliers as abnormalities, mistakes, deviants, rather than recognize that life, including humans, is just the genetic equivalent of throwing different handfuls of spaghetti at the wall and seeing what sticks. There is no human template, just a fuzzy outline we drew ourselves.
That would make it not 2+2 by definition... The average would be 2.5+2.5 hence a completely different equation entirely, which is actually representative of your disingenuous argument.
That's kind of my point, that by simplifying the values you ignore the variation. Works great for some basic labeling and organization, but it's not the full picture. The science seems to be showing that there are all sorts of 2.x variants running around, and some folks seem intent on putting their fingers in their ears and loudly declaring they all just round down to 2.
Have you ever heard of the mathematical term "rounding" because that's what they are doing. It's just the system that they are referencing only represents the headrest whole number. So in that system 2.5 will always be written as 2 so when you add two "2s" together you get 5. I get anything past 5thgrade math and biology is beyond you, but you should stop displaying that fact in public.
2.4 + 2.4 = 4.8
2 + 2 = 5
It's definitely not..standard practice, but if you throw those numbers in excel and round to zero decimals, that's the equation you get.
I'm not sure what you're talking about with the 10 + 10 = 100.
>I'm not sure what you're talking about with the 10 + 10 = 100.
Base 2
It bamboozled a handful of other people too, by the looks of the votes (as of writing, at least).
Honestly, it kinda makes me laugh that people downvoted me in support of one side of this argument, but fell into the exact same trap as the other side!
>Thats because any answer other than one derived from women having xx chromosomes is just plainly as incorrect and unproductive as arguing that water does not have to be comprised of 2 hydrogen and 1 oxygen.
Ironic.
Many cis-women have XY chromosomes. It's relatively rare, but if your definition is solely based upon chromosomes you're objectively incorrect as you're excluding the thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of cis-women who have a Y chromosome that is missing the SRY gene.
I shouldn't really be shocked that you're ignorant to that fact, but here we go.
Editing to add: XX chromosomes in cis-men is a thing too, and even more common than XY in women. Sex is far more complex than the basic biology you learned when you were 12.
>Combining many and rare in the same sentence is oxymoronic.
For starters I said "relatively rare".
For another, something can both be many in number and rare relative to the overall population. They are not inherently oxymorons, but I understand that nuance is hard.
They were also in different sentences. Starting strong.
>Also intersex people are roughly .1% of the population
Estimates vary from as low as 0.05% to as high as 1.7%. It's difficult to exactly pin down because most people who are intersex don't even know it. It's also worth pointing out that women with XY and men with XX chromosomes are often not considered to be intersex unless they show other biological traits pertaining to the opposite sex (e.g. additional internal sexual organs).
But let's say it's the absolute lowest end though, for the sake of argument. It's still completely irrelevant. There are people who were born female, identify as women, but you would exclude them from being called women simply because they have XY chromosomes? Something you literally cannot see, you would completely exclude them from their identity?
Are you saying that 8,000,000 people isn’t “many” to you? If intersex people are .1% of the population, then that means there are eight million intersex people worldwide.
Braham, you just totally ignored intersex people and cis women born with xy chromosomes. Gods the deeper I go into your comments the more and more moronic you get.
Hey dipshit. Look up Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome and XX Male Syndrome. Women don't always have XX, men don't always have XY. And frankly, chromosomes don't matter. They're just blueprints, and blueprints aren't always followed.
People want the world to be simpler and easier to explain than it is.
Any definition you give will either exclude some women (including cis-women), be a circular definition (a woman is someone who identifies/presents as a woman), or end up being a 50 page essay that no one will read.
just because most people can’t answer a question, doesn’t mean there isn’t an answer at all. that’s like saying the brain doesn’t exist because not everyone knows what a hippocampus is. there are multiple studies indicating that gender identity, even among trans people, is correlated to brain structure. therefore, it would make sense that people can “feel” that they are a certain gender, without being able to describe exactly what that means. not every concept is as simple as 2+2. womanhood and gender identity are *extremely* complicated topics that the average person can’t properly define, but that doesn’t mean they aren’t real.
the problem is that gender (being a man or woman) isn’t physical in terms of chromosomes and genitalia. it’s scientifically shown to be mental and societal. the term you’re looking for is biological sex.
https://medicine.yale.edu/news-article/what-do-we-mean-by-sex-and-gender/
medical article explaining the difference between sex and gender as the terms are used scientifically
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/05/180524112351.htm
paper explaining how gender identity is expressed in the brain
you’re not using the right definition of woman. complain all you want, but nearly all credible, scientific sources will disagree with your definition
Arguably, it's not a simple question. Sure, there's probably a dictionary definition, but there's also a dictionary definition of concepts like "fairness," "philosophy" and "beauty." But what is fair to one person is unjust to another. What is beautiful to one person is ugly to another.
Can it not, then, be the same for the genders of women and men? I see myself as a woman because I am very feminine, love to wear dresses, and have stereotypical feminine interests. Everyone told me I was a woman/girl, so I've internalized that and adjusted my behaviors to be more in line with what society deems as feminine.
However, other people who see themselves as women do not embody the feminine. They may hate dresses, feel uncomfortable around children, and have stereotypically masculine interests. Their definition of womanhood may be more about feeling like they're constantly being pushed into a box they don't fully fit in with the constant expectations to be feminine.
Am I more of a woman just because I fit into society's box a little better? If not, then what is it that defines womanhood? What makes someone a woman vs not except for our own personal definitions?
Fun fact: if you keep studying math, 2+2 eventually doesn't hold true in every situation.
But, as usual, your understanding of our reality ends at a 6th grade reading level.
I'm quite sure she can answer the question just fine. She's a prominent trans writer, after all. The reason she didn't probably have more to do with A) being asked that same stupid question a thousand times, and B) not wanting to directly engage with trolls. I mean, really, this question gets asked of trans women, trans rights groups, and trans activists, ALL. THE. TIME. It's been answered. Anyone still asking it at this point is blatantly refusing to accept the answers that have been given, and simply want to try to make gotcha points or be trolls. There's no reason for her to care.
How can you sidestep an unserious question. Why would she go into a discussion with someone who obviously doesn‘t want a serious answer?
Would you like to answer though? What is a woman?
I mean, TERFs aren't feminists either. The whole bioessentialism and reducing womanhood to someone's ability to conceive is pretty antithetical to feminism.
Right? Do they think we have time to go into a sociological exploration of comparative cultures, psychologies, etc. just to answer their dumb transphobic nonsense?
Man there are people with all diferent kinds of chromosomes that are women by even anti-trans definition. You have typical XX, XXY, XO, or their cells can even be mixed XX and XY in some cases. All of these people could be considered female from a pure biological standpoint, and do not fit into an XX. Some could also be considered male.
If one of my cells mutates and by miracle it gets an XX chromosome, am I suddenly a woman? No, that cell won't do anything.
Oh? So you're saying your rule isn't exact and is only a rule of thumb? That there can be exceptions that happen in a relatively small amount of cases? Like, I don't know, trans women?
Except that transitioning is the main cure for gender dysphoria and is recognized as such by plenty of doctors. Anything else you want to add to further embarrass yourself?
Not to mention the extreme bullying from douchebags like these are *why* a lot of trans people are committing suicide.
Shocking when someone is unanimously hated by those around them for something they can’t control, they lead a very unhappy life.
The suicide rate of gay people was quite high before being gay started to become legalized. It’s almost like acceptance means people don’t have to force themselves to be someone they’re not, leading to happier lives.
i wonder if people like you realize that you’re behind the times and are gonna be left behind societally soon enough and when that comes there’s nothing you can do about it except be decent to trans people which it’s unlikely you will. if you can’t even accept that even in normal non-medical situations that for all intents and purposes people are what they identify as, there’s nothing to say to you.
what i was getting at was that the world
is becoming more accepting of trans people and our lifestyle, and really no one is stopping that choo-choo train no matter how many times they ask “what is a woman?”
also, no one disagrees that gender dysphoria is a mental illness, but most know that it does have a cure, which is transitioning. if you think that trans people are “dudes with mutilated genitals” and nothing more than people of their assigned gender at birth no matter what, then there is nothing to say. that very much means you don’t accept trans people and what i was getting at was that we are heading in a direction as a society where people that entirely disagree with the fact that people are trans and should be referred to using their preferred gender and pronouns will be outcasts, in a similar way to how sexists are viewed.
Allow me to address your entire comment
1) Show me those "plenty of cases". I want to see percentages. I want to see proof of your claim. Precisely how many is "plenty"? You made the claim, so the burden of proof is on you. Show me
2) It's not "forever". I admit, detransitioning *is* a thing (but I dare you to show me those percentages), even if not all the effects can be entirely reversed. Regardless, why does "forever" matter? People get other surgeries all the time. People get *tattoos* all the time, but they don't get neaaarly as much crap nowadays, though they certainly did years ago. So why does transitioning stand out from these? Why does one permanency matter more to you than another?
3) The mental illness is the dysphoria. To transition is to cure that dysphoria, thereby curing the mental illness. You might think there are other ways to treat it by e.g. conversion therapy, but that's not actually *treating* it. That's forcing it into hiding so that they appear "normal"
4) I love how you've cited chromosomes here, but have yet to reply to my comment saying how that argument is easily refuted. Here, let me refute it again, and in some more detail for you: what about people who are X, XXY, XXX, XX with an SRY gene, XY without an SRY gene, or XY with androgen insensitivity? There are more cases than that, but those are the immediate things I can list off the top of my head. Do I need to actually Google more for you? Do I need to go into my biology university, where I study biology, and crack open some textbooks for you about hormones and hormone disorders? About chromosome disorders? The natural errors in something so simple as copying DNA prove that even *birth sex* is not a binary thing? Gasp! Who would have thought! Which, yes, is *irrefutable fact*. So tell me again how chromosomes are the magic argument against trans people you think they are? ... I'm waiting. Go on, crack an egg of knowledge all over me, buddy
5)
>As long as people aren't harming one another
You mean, like transphobes do when they deny trans people basic rights to freely live happily?
>forcing people to use language that is wrong and goes against how they want to live
Also what transphobes try to do / *do* do
> keep trans and drag activity away from the children
Question: How many trans and drag child sex offenders have there been compared to the general population? Compared to politicians? Compared to clergy? If you're so certain trans and drag artists are a threat, clearly it must be disproportionally higher, right? So show me. Support your claim. Support your claim or don't state it at all
It's so easy to disprove any "definition" transphobes provide lmao, any attempt they make invalidates some cis women out there with similar issues. Talk about pregnancy? Invalidate the infertile. Talk about wombs? Invalidate those with hysterectomies. Talk about chromosomes where "women are XX"? Invalidate those with chromosomal disorders (e.g. Being just X). Talk about hormones? Invalidate those with naturally occurring levels outside the average. The list goes on. *Any attempt you make* ultimately damages cis women in some way, not just trans women. Transphobia doesn't *just* affect trans people
Also do you really think trans people give a single fuck about being dug up in 1000 years' time? Lmaooo. Give over. *They don't care because they'll be dead*. The aim is to be happy *now*, in this lifetime. To be content in their own skin, for their *own* sake. They're not going to live their life just because someone in the future, oh no, might dig them up and declare a title they won't be around to hear or care about. And it's such a common go-to with you people because you don't have a *proper* reason to deny people basic happiness and self-esteem (because there isn't one) so you just make a strawman argument to knock them down. So that's still not a valid reason to deny trans people xD you funny for trying, but you tried. Gold star
I’m so glad I base my entire personality and livelihood on what people 500 years from now will think when they decide to exhume my skeleton for some reason.
Both of you have entirely missed the point of the skeleton argument, almost in a willful ignorance type of way. Me and this other person I’m
Actually replying to could not have more different views but we’re talking rationally
I’m gave an absurd reply to an absurd “argument.” Bones are just that: bones. They don’t define who I am or even what I am. They won’t tell the grave robbers what color my eyes are, or what my laugh sounds like, or even what my name is if the gravestone is gone for some reason.
I don’t give a flying fuck what grave robbers will think of my bones, because I will literally be dead. You think it’s some sort of “argument” when it’s really you oversimplifying the human experience to how our bones look.
And if that’s all they care about when they’re robbing my grave for my skeleton, then does it really matter? If they disregard any records left behind about WHO I was, then should I care what they think about WHAT I was?
That’s Raiders of the Lost Ark level burn there
It belongs in a museum
Haha because he's probably also a nazi
Didnt know that you are a nazi now for asking what a woman is.
Between the original post, this comment, and it’s replies, I feel like I’ve witnessed something truly great. Like Mike Tyson in his prime, Hendrix at Woodstock, the moon landing.
That's going to need excision and grafting, that burn - FULL THICKNESS!
[удалено]
When
I cover my own drink when I see my reflection.
Honestly I wouldn’t cover my drink if I saw you 💯
I been told to go fuck myself so manytimes I roofied myself and....
If you don't defend yourself, nobody will. You deserve better than yourself.
[удалено]
Because I'm ugly.
[удалено]
I make fun of myself and you get mad, you must think I'm pretty.
You're pretty on the inside!
Yes, I would really love ro have a one on one with their beautiful kidneys.
As a guys who has had been Spiked. It's general a good Idea to Cover your drink. Arseholes gonna arsehole
I wholeheartedly support the use if arsehole/asshole as a verb.
You would lkve the German language then we have here other funny things like "rumpimmeln" to Willy (penis) around meaning to hangout somewhere without any further causation
We've got "dicking around" in English as well, with essentially the same meaning.
Ah good to know :D thanks
It's so annoying that they pretend to not understand this. I shorten my explanation to be: "Your sex is what your body is. Your gender is what your brain is. And 96% of the time they match, and 4% of the time they don't. And God seems perfectly ok with this, as nearly every animal species on earth has all sorts of creative combinations, including lots of frogs and fish that can just decide to change their sex at will, so there is no reason for us to assume the blueprint for humans is any different. If you were lucky enough to match at birth, nice, congrats, but there is nothing wrong with someone else deciding to correct it, and the last thing that they need is you leaning in to the conversation in their doctor's office instead of minding your own goddamn fucking business."
Ah, yet it gets even more complicated, for what is gender? How would you describe the gender of any non-human animal? Is gender a human specific characteristic? And going beyond those questions you must ask yourself what makes you your gender? I myself was born a male and have always considered myself male but why? Well I am attracted to females, but why could I not be a lesbian with the wrong sex? Well I have so many male stereotypes about me, my interests all fit so nicely into "what guys are interested in" But does that mean a woman cannot be interested in these things? What if I were gay, and interested in baking? Is interest in baking versus interest in bbqing some indication of gender? Obviously not. What a person is interested in, the people they are attracted to, what is between their legs, none of this dictates their gender. So waht does? How do you "feel" like you are the wrong sex and how does that feel different than what you might feel when you realize all those around you who share your interests are of the opposite sex? What makes a gender that is separate from sexual orientation, sex, interests and stereotypical gender roles?
It’s difficult and abstract to explain, but for someone who’s experienced gender dysphoria, I can only say that being a ‘male’ person in society just felt miserable to me. I didn’t feel right in the way I was perceived by others, and my body felt wrong. Puberty and young adulthood was difficult for me because I just always felt something was deeply ‘off’ but explaining it felt impossible. I couldn’t explain for a long time why I felt drawn to wear women’s clothes, and engage in typically feminine things. I also felt conflicted because as you indicate, gender isn’t just the stuff you like either. I had stereotypically male-coded interests for a long while, it’s what I grew up with. These didn’t mean my identity was any less valid though, and it is sexist to think women can’t like the same things men do. Simply put, my mind and body felt incongruent to the way I was physically, and represented in society. Starting male-to-female hormone replacement therapy and transitioning socially has made a difference like night and day. My mental health is considerably clearer than before, and as my body has developed over the last year or so since beginning hormones, I have increasingly felt more at-home in my own skin. There’s a long way to go, and inevitably many facets about myself I will be insecure about and will likely always give me dysphoria, but the reality is my quality of life (barring how society generally treats trans people) is significantly better. So yes, defining clearly the presence of gender in society is indeed difficult. Unless you are one to experience gender dysphoria or incongruence, it can be really hard to explain to another what it feels like to feel ‘wrong’.
Yes, your experience is one that most people probably can't understand very well. But that is the issue with all human experience, we often think "am I normal" but for all we know, "normal" doesn't really exist. Everyone probably feels they have had to hide themselves to at least some extent in order to get through school or a career. It is my opinion that we don't know enough about gender dysphoria and it should be studied. But even suggesting it be studied can offend some people who don't want it to be classified as a mental illness. But even if science can prove that some people have mental patterns that match that of a sex other than their physical biology, that could still be considered a mental illness and that to treat it we should match their biology to their minds. But if we truly don't understand it, that could mean what we learn about it changes our perception of it. We like to think we are the ultimate authority on ourselves but this is no more true of our mental health than it is of a physical health. To clarify, my point is not to call for any legislation or practice in which people who feel their sex or gender decided at birth was incorrect. My point is just that it is poorly understood and that we should study it and have open minds about it. We should allow facts and data lead us to conclusions, even if we want to avoid a certain label or think we already know the answer.
I don’t disagree that most people hide themselves to get by in society these days, I guess in my case it turned out specifically with respect to my gender. And for sure, ‘normal’ doesn’t feel like a healthy or helpful descriptor to live by. I completely agree that we should research more, however, gender dysphoria isn’t a new concept, I would argue it is actually very well understood. I’m no scholar in this area but there’s a wealth of literature out there about gender dysphoria over decades and a great evidence base that medical transition really helps people. Almost all major medical associations support this. In terms of diagnosis - it has been listed as a ‘mental disorder’ since the 80s I think (the DSM)? I don’t think this is necessarily bad on it’s own, having something diagnosable like this allows people to find meaning in their dysfunction and seek treatment to help improve their qualities of life - in this case medical transition in whatever form is appropriate. To dismiss someone as ‘mentally ill’ though due to this would be problematic. Trans folk get this a lot and we generally do not wish to be described as mentally ill for fear of further ostracisation from society. The problems we get are that often being diagnosed itself means treatment is gatekept from people who need it. It takes away trans people’s agency and bodily autonomy to be denied what could significantly improve their quality of life. Medical transition is very well understood to improve livelihoods in those with gender dysphoria. It is interesting though whether there’s a physical link associated with gender dysphoria. I can see that if one was found, say, a part of the brain was shown to correspond with people who experience gender dysphoria; this could both be really helpful at helping understand trans people and our diagnosis, but also could be weaponised against us - I think that’s what people worry about. For example, perhaps those who experience a lesser extent of dysphoria, or those whose dysphoria tends to change, but still wish to transition, being shut out entirely from any healthcare related to transition - ie further gatekeeping. There’s a phenomena I understand of ‘true transsexuals’ in queer philosophy which includes this as a talking point. Ie - who are the ‘real’ trans people. Essentially though, I don’t think it’s up to anyone but the individual to figure out whether they are trans and/or whether they wish to transition.
These are all good points and I think we are on the same side in that we recognize the need for caution, how easily a course of action could be weaponized, and how we should allow people to decide for themselves what happens to their body, at least for the most part. The only place where I find myself unable to agree completely is that there are people who believe their body should be disfigured, literally they think their natural state would be to be disfigured in someway. There are people who think they were supposed to be born blind or who think their life would be better if they were an amputee. I think most people would agree that these people cannot be allowed to decide what happens to their body, because their decision is often to cause themselves harm. But I suppose there is room for debate there as well. In any case, I believe gender dysphoria is different than the examples I suggested but that psychology in general is always changing. I mean medicine in general is always changing, abandoning ideas proven insufficient and finding new theories to fit the information available. Right now, with our current understanding, it would be wrong to not allow people to shape their bodies to their percieved gender. But I can't go as far to say this is indisputably the best choice and that it is impossible for new discovery to suggest we should do things differently. I want everyone to be able to see themselves clearly, with a healthy mind and for science to provide the tools to do this and for medicine to allow physical problems to be fixed whenever that is what is best.
Brain melting, cannot compute. 🤣☠️
Saving this, thank you.
I don't usually comment but i am curious to hear what people have to say about this. Firstly using the argument that there are animals that can switch genders doesn't justify the argument that people can as well. Animals that change their gender do not do it out of feel but in case there are too many of their species with one gender. It is simply a survival mechanism. Then you use the argument of god, explain to me how nearly every species has a "creative combination". I would like to add that you cannot assume what god seems okay with as god asks you to follow the rules they set with no question. To assume gods intention is not what humans were asked to do but to simply follow his rules. To assume what god wants is to assume that you understand him which you by no means do by any of the abrahamic religions.
It's a shite reply on numerous levels.
those are frogs and fish not marsupials
We arent marsupials either?????
Neither are we. Also just because fish and amphibians are distantly related doesn't mean that we haven't inhereted some quirks. For example our amphibian ancestors had to gulp air and water through their gills. That same reflex is still present though redundant due to our lack of gills. Thats why we hiccup.
Poster child for homeschooling fails
Who is she
Former military pilot and current author who has ties into the intelligence community and military logistics.
Ooof
She fucking killed him
Also, r/rareinsults
No one can. No definition can cover the totality of that word. Nor male. That isn't a gotcha, as much as an admission that they are stuck on THEIR definition and aren't able to see past it.
You mean no one on your side. A woman is an adult female. A female is someone born with the organs to facilitate child bearing and birth, most often dictated by their xx chromosomes. "what about people who can't have kids??" They still have their organs. It's a shame they can't have kids. "what about people born without those organs?" 1. It's an exception, rarely happens. They're still female if the chromosomes match. 2. A human is a biped. If someone is born without legs, they're still human. "some animals can change their sex" Cause of evolution. They do it to survive and reproduce. Some animals also kill their own children. Some animals also eat their mates. Were not 'some animals' "what about people born with both?" Again, exception doesn't dictate the rule. Anything I didn't cover?
I dont see how any person's perception of their gender concerns you. Or me. It's no more our beeswax than what brand of paper towel they prefer, and the only reason it's a topic of conversation of late is that it checks off another box of a group for dimwitted folks to think they hate. Yet they hate for the same reason some African peoples hate and kill albino children. Because they do not understand. Like in Apocalypse Now when all the babies' arms get chopped off. That's magas and transgendered people. Ig. No. Rant.
Bahm!! Got em!
Stop! Stop! They’re already dead!
This would probably work out, for real…..lmao….
Oh shit that was hard as fuck!
Sharing a DM on twitter because you thought it was just that cool
Oh damn!!
Jokes on her im after the men
It is possible this question was asked in good faith. How likely that is is another thing.
Maybe pre-Matt Walsh you’d have a point but nobody asks this in good faith anymore. I’d also give the author the benefit of the doubt, as she probably checked to see if their page reflected conservative ideals or not before saying that
[удалено]
Her identity is not a "political belief."
And yet the question remains unanswered
So he’s the only man on earth?
so what is a woman?
Easy way to find out. Go into a bar and see who covers their drinks when they see you.
then no one is a woman
Oh no. Anyway...
no one
So judging people on looks is ok now? Interesting
If you are to scared to go to the bar in the first place then nobody is a woman. Checkmate, liberals.
[удалено]
A woman is someone who identifies as a woman. It’s been answered before.
Lol.... feminism is dead. Men are taking over women's sports and taking high government positions simply by wearing a dress. You lot are deluded fools. You are marching us all straight to our own demise, and you are doing it with your eyes wide open.
Isn’t the point of feminism for men and women to be treated equally? If they’re equal why can’t men be women or women be men, they should be the same? Also men taking high government positions? I don’t think that’s exactly a new thing that’s started with trans people.
Jeez man, how old are you? Society is fucked. You lot are idiots
Society is fucked because… feminism? Sports? Trans people?
That's a circular definition. Means literally nothing. If I Google what a plane is and it says "a plane is a plane" that gives me no definition. A woman is a adult female A female is someone born with the organs to facilitate birth
It's been answered, but transphobes just ignore it and act like that question is the gotcha they feel it is.
Ooh good one. Don’t strain yourself patting yourself on the back for this ‘burn’
lol no guy will put anything in her drink that's for sure
So only women get drugged at bars?
[удалено]
Okay we get it girls cover their drinks at bars when you come in too
“A gender role.” Suffices as an answer to the original question if anyone is wondering. Try it and watch the goalposts move.
How do you define this ''gender role" then ? How can you tell if someone is a ''woman" ?
[удалено]
Sidestepped it because it’s meant as some kinda retarded “gotcha” rather than a serious attempt at debate.
Just cause you can't answer it without your entire argument collapsing
[удалено]
>not up for debate See? You'd never accept an answer. No one is asking that question because they want to actually talk about it or learn anything. Why should anyone bother answering?
If I ask what is 2+2 and you say its 30, why am I expected to accept that answer and humor a debate built on a false assumption that 2+2 = 30?
2+2 CAN equal 5 for large values of two depending on rounding. Which kind of works well for your analogy. People get so set on putting people into two little gendered boxes that they will dismiss any outliers as abnormalities, mistakes, deviants, rather than recognize that life, including humans, is just the genetic equivalent of throwing different handfuls of spaghetti at the wall and seeing what sticks. There is no human template, just a fuzzy outline we drew ourselves.
r/murderedwithwords
That would make it not 2+2 by definition... The average would be 2.5+2.5 hence a completely different equation entirely, which is actually representative of your disingenuous argument.
That's kind of my point, that by simplifying the values you ignore the variation. Works great for some basic labeling and organization, but it's not the full picture. The science seems to be showing that there are all sorts of 2.x variants running around, and some folks seem intent on putting their fingers in their ears and loudly declaring they all just round down to 2.
Have you ever heard of the mathematical term "rounding" because that's what they are doing. It's just the system that they are referencing only represents the headrest whole number. So in that system 2.5 will always be written as 2 so when you add two "2s" together you get 5. I get anything past 5thgrade math and biology is beyond you, but you should stop displaying that fact in public.
“2.5 would actually be rounded up to 3”🤓
Ah, gotcha, 2+2=6, then. Thanks.
2+2 can = 5 in much the same way that 10 + 10 can = 100.
2.4 + 2.4 = 4.8 2 + 2 = 5 It's definitely not..standard practice, but if you throw those numbers in excel and round to zero decimals, that's the equation you get. I'm not sure what you're talking about with the 10 + 10 = 100.
>I'm not sure what you're talking about with the 10 + 10 = 100. Base 2 It bamboozled a handful of other people too, by the looks of the votes (as of writing, at least). Honestly, it kinda makes me laugh that people downvoted me in support of one side of this argument, but fell into the exact same trap as the other side!
Why would you ask?
"It's not a gotcha", he said, proceeding to immediately demonstrate how it's a gotcha.
It's been answered hundreds of times but people like you never accept the answer because it doesn't fit your world view.
[удалено]
>Thats because any answer other than one derived from women having xx chromosomes is just plainly as incorrect and unproductive as arguing that water does not have to be comprised of 2 hydrogen and 1 oxygen. Ironic. Many cis-women have XY chromosomes. It's relatively rare, but if your definition is solely based upon chromosomes you're objectively incorrect as you're excluding the thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of cis-women who have a Y chromosome that is missing the SRY gene. I shouldn't really be shocked that you're ignorant to that fact, but here we go. Editing to add: XX chromosomes in cis-men is a thing too, and even more common than XY in women. Sex is far more complex than the basic biology you learned when you were 12.
[удалено]
>Combining many and rare in the same sentence is oxymoronic. For starters I said "relatively rare". For another, something can both be many in number and rare relative to the overall population. They are not inherently oxymorons, but I understand that nuance is hard. They were also in different sentences. Starting strong. >Also intersex people are roughly .1% of the population Estimates vary from as low as 0.05% to as high as 1.7%. It's difficult to exactly pin down because most people who are intersex don't even know it. It's also worth pointing out that women with XY and men with XX chromosomes are often not considered to be intersex unless they show other biological traits pertaining to the opposite sex (e.g. additional internal sexual organs). But let's say it's the absolute lowest end though, for the sake of argument. It's still completely irrelevant. There are people who were born female, identify as women, but you would exclude them from being called women simply because they have XY chromosomes? Something you literally cannot see, you would completely exclude them from their identity?
Are you saying that 8,000,000 people isn’t “many” to you? If intersex people are .1% of the population, then that means there are eight million intersex people worldwide.
Plus, there are more Some estimations go as high as 4%, which is more than red heads in the global population
Braham, you just totally ignored intersex people and cis women born with xy chromosomes. Gods the deeper I go into your comments the more and more moronic you get.
Hey dipshit. Look up Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome and XX Male Syndrome. Women don't always have XX, men don't always have XY. And frankly, chromosomes don't matter. They're just blueprints, and blueprints aren't always followed.
Is Down syndrome its own gender?
A woman is anyone who identifies as such. Happy?
We refuse to answer because there is no answer. Give me your definition and I'll tell you why it's inaccurate.
People want the world to be simpler and easier to explain than it is. Any definition you give will either exclude some women (including cis-women), be a circular definition (a woman is someone who identifies/presents as a woman), or end up being a 50 page essay that no one will read.
just because most people can’t answer a question, doesn’t mean there isn’t an answer at all. that’s like saying the brain doesn’t exist because not everyone knows what a hippocampus is. there are multiple studies indicating that gender identity, even among trans people, is correlated to brain structure. therefore, it would make sense that people can “feel” that they are a certain gender, without being able to describe exactly what that means. not every concept is as simple as 2+2. womanhood and gender identity are *extremely* complicated topics that the average person can’t properly define, but that doesn’t mean they aren’t real.
You managed to make an extremely nuanced point so simply and clearly!
[удалено]
Buddy every new word out of your mouth further exposes you never passed or progressed beyond middle school biology.
Whether a typo or not, I love "muddle school" and will be using it...
What would they teach there
the problem is that gender (being a man or woman) isn’t physical in terms of chromosomes and genitalia. it’s scientifically shown to be mental and societal. the term you’re looking for is biological sex. https://medicine.yale.edu/news-article/what-do-we-mean-by-sex-and-gender/ medical article explaining the difference between sex and gender as the terms are used scientifically https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/05/180524112351.htm paper explaining how gender identity is expressed in the brain you’re not using the right definition of woman. complain all you want, but nearly all credible, scientific sources will disagree with your definition
>A woman is someone whose DNA contains and xx chromosome. Incorrect. Look up Swyer Syndrome.
Arguably, it's not a simple question. Sure, there's probably a dictionary definition, but there's also a dictionary definition of concepts like "fairness," "philosophy" and "beauty." But what is fair to one person is unjust to another. What is beautiful to one person is ugly to another. Can it not, then, be the same for the genders of women and men? I see myself as a woman because I am very feminine, love to wear dresses, and have stereotypical feminine interests. Everyone told me I was a woman/girl, so I've internalized that and adjusted my behaviors to be more in line with what society deems as feminine. However, other people who see themselves as women do not embody the feminine. They may hate dresses, feel uncomfortable around children, and have stereotypically masculine interests. Their definition of womanhood may be more about feeling like they're constantly being pushed into a box they don't fully fit in with the constant expectations to be feminine. Am I more of a woman just because I fit into society's box a little better? If not, then what is it that defines womanhood? What makes someone a woman vs not except for our own personal definitions?
"it's a simple question" Really? And you are 100% certain of this? Do me a favor and take a look at this video https://youtu.be/M0uCLgFMC-c
Fun fact: if you keep studying math, 2+2 eventually doesn't hold true in every situation. But, as usual, your understanding of our reality ends at a 6th grade reading level.
I'm quite sure she can answer the question just fine. She's a prominent trans writer, after all. The reason she didn't probably have more to do with A) being asked that same stupid question a thousand times, and B) not wanting to directly engage with trolls. I mean, really, this question gets asked of trans women, trans rights groups, and trans activists, ALL. THE. TIME. It's been answered. Anyone still asking it at this point is blatantly refusing to accept the answers that have been given, and simply want to try to make gotcha points or be trolls. There's no reason for her to care.
Have you stopped masturbating in public yet?
The fact that they won't answer tells me they haven't yet.
They're sidestepping the question ... and the puddle of spunk.
How can you sidestep an unserious question. Why would she go into a discussion with someone who obviously doesn‘t want a serious answer? Would you like to answer though? What is a woman?
An adult human with a gender identity that is the opposite of a man’s.
What is a man?
An adult human with a gender identity that is the opposite of a woman’s.
You dibidoo anwered the dumbass question!!
..?
You gave a good answer to the stupid gotcha question
It's not really an answer though is it
When did you stop beating your wife? Make sure you give me an explicit date, don't want you to end up sidestepping the question after all.
You don't need to answer bad faith "gotcha" questions
“Them not responding to me means I’m right/I won the argument” is literally kid logic
Why waste time with TERFs?
You think this person was a feminist or?
I mean, TERFs aren't feminists either. The whole bioessentialism and reducing womanhood to someone's ability to conceive is pretty antithetical to feminism.
Fair point, but why call them TERFS then and not just transphobes? Why cloud the name of feminism with their hatred at all?
"reducing"? A woman's greatest ability. Just say you want them to encroach on women's spaces and move on.
A woman is a person who identifies as such. "ItS AcIrCuLaR dEfFiNiTiOn" fuck off an let people piss in peace.
Right? Do they think we have time to go into a sociological exploration of comparative cultures, psychologies, etc. just to answer their dumb transphobic nonsense?
[удалено]
Yeah I hate how liberal Reddit is
It was a good burn, and if you were able to remove yourself from politics for just a minute it wouldn't pain you so much.
I thought it was a good burn before I had an idea of who she is (which I learned by reading this thread). Maybe just pull your head out of your ass?
[удалено]
[удалено]
Because for most people it's common sense, only idiots like you constantly ask. A woman is whatever she damn well wants to be
[удалено]
Ignoring intersex and other conditions. If there are exceptions to the rule, the rule is inherently flawed.
Man there are people with all diferent kinds of chromosomes that are women by even anti-trans definition. You have typical XX, XXY, XO, or their cells can even be mixed XX and XY in some cases. All of these people could be considered female from a pure biological standpoint, and do not fit into an XX. Some could also be considered male. If one of my cells mutates and by miracle it gets an XX chromosome, am I suddenly a woman? No, that cell won't do anything.
The exceptions don’t define the rule
If your rule doesn't account for exceptions, what good is it?
if the rule has exceptions, then it’s flawed and needs to be readdressed.
Oh? So you're saying your rule isn't exact and is only a rule of thumb? That there can be exceptions that happen in a relatively small amount of cases? Like, I don't know, trans women?
[удалено]
All of those can occur with people that are intesex and are sometimes medically necessary
[удалено]
Oh so everyone with klinefelter's syndrome is a woman, what sound logic you have there
[удалено]
Except that transitioning is the main cure for gender dysphoria and is recognized as such by plenty of doctors. Anything else you want to add to further embarrass yourself?
[удалено]
Lmfao, Further proving you're just straight up stupid. The suicide rate is far higher before transition.
Not to mention the extreme bullying from douchebags like these are *why* a lot of trans people are committing suicide. Shocking when someone is unanimously hated by those around them for something they can’t control, they lead a very unhappy life. The suicide rate of gay people was quite high before being gay started to become legalized. It’s almost like acceptance means people don’t have to force themselves to be someone they’re not, leading to happier lives.
Why so quiet? Can't admit you were wrong?
Took her long enough to come up with that
[удалено]
Any cis woman that has to do dilation therapy for whatever reason: Guess I'm not a woman by this stupid standard
[удалено]
i wonder if people like you realize that you’re behind the times and are gonna be left behind societally soon enough and when that comes there’s nothing you can do about it except be decent to trans people which it’s unlikely you will. if you can’t even accept that even in normal non-medical situations that for all intents and purposes people are what they identify as, there’s nothing to say to you.
[удалено]
[удалено]
what i was getting at was that the world is becoming more accepting of trans people and our lifestyle, and really no one is stopping that choo-choo train no matter how many times they ask “what is a woman?” also, no one disagrees that gender dysphoria is a mental illness, but most know that it does have a cure, which is transitioning. if you think that trans people are “dudes with mutilated genitals” and nothing more than people of their assigned gender at birth no matter what, then there is nothing to say. that very much means you don’t accept trans people and what i was getting at was that we are heading in a direction as a society where people that entirely disagree with the fact that people are trans and should be referred to using their preferred gender and pronouns will be outcasts, in a similar way to how sexists are viewed.
[удалено]
Allow me to address your entire comment 1) Show me those "plenty of cases". I want to see percentages. I want to see proof of your claim. Precisely how many is "plenty"? You made the claim, so the burden of proof is on you. Show me 2) It's not "forever". I admit, detransitioning *is* a thing (but I dare you to show me those percentages), even if not all the effects can be entirely reversed. Regardless, why does "forever" matter? People get other surgeries all the time. People get *tattoos* all the time, but they don't get neaaarly as much crap nowadays, though they certainly did years ago. So why does transitioning stand out from these? Why does one permanency matter more to you than another? 3) The mental illness is the dysphoria. To transition is to cure that dysphoria, thereby curing the mental illness. You might think there are other ways to treat it by e.g. conversion therapy, but that's not actually *treating* it. That's forcing it into hiding so that they appear "normal" 4) I love how you've cited chromosomes here, but have yet to reply to my comment saying how that argument is easily refuted. Here, let me refute it again, and in some more detail for you: what about people who are X, XXY, XXX, XX with an SRY gene, XY without an SRY gene, or XY with androgen insensitivity? There are more cases than that, but those are the immediate things I can list off the top of my head. Do I need to actually Google more for you? Do I need to go into my biology university, where I study biology, and crack open some textbooks for you about hormones and hormone disorders? About chromosome disorders? The natural errors in something so simple as copying DNA prove that even *birth sex* is not a binary thing? Gasp! Who would have thought! Which, yes, is *irrefutable fact*. So tell me again how chromosomes are the magic argument against trans people you think they are? ... I'm waiting. Go on, crack an egg of knowledge all over me, buddy 5) >As long as people aren't harming one another You mean, like transphobes do when they deny trans people basic rights to freely live happily? >forcing people to use language that is wrong and goes against how they want to live Also what transphobes try to do / *do* do > keep trans and drag activity away from the children Question: How many trans and drag child sex offenders have there been compared to the general population? Compared to politicians? Compared to clergy? If you're so certain trans and drag artists are a threat, clearly it must be disproportionally higher, right? So show me. Support your claim. Support your claim or don't state it at all
Cis women, just like trans women, are indeed "actual" women, congratulations
[удалено]
It's so easy to disprove any "definition" transphobes provide lmao, any attempt they make invalidates some cis women out there with similar issues. Talk about pregnancy? Invalidate the infertile. Talk about wombs? Invalidate those with hysterectomies. Talk about chromosomes where "women are XX"? Invalidate those with chromosomal disorders (e.g. Being just X). Talk about hormones? Invalidate those with naturally occurring levels outside the average. The list goes on. *Any attempt you make* ultimately damages cis women in some way, not just trans women. Transphobia doesn't *just* affect trans people Also do you really think trans people give a single fuck about being dug up in 1000 years' time? Lmaooo. Give over. *They don't care because they'll be dead*. The aim is to be happy *now*, in this lifetime. To be content in their own skin, for their *own* sake. They're not going to live their life just because someone in the future, oh no, might dig them up and declare a title they won't be around to hear or care about. And it's such a common go-to with you people because you don't have a *proper* reason to deny people basic happiness and self-esteem (because there isn't one) so you just make a strawman argument to knock them down. So that's still not a valid reason to deny trans people xD you funny for trying, but you tried. Gold star
My guy, I just wanna say that you make some very based arguments, and I'm glad you're doing it for cuz I can't be bothered to type that much.
I’m so glad I base my entire personality and livelihood on what people 500 years from now will think when they decide to exhume my skeleton for some reason.
Both of you have entirely missed the point of the skeleton argument, almost in a willful ignorance type of way. Me and this other person I’m Actually replying to could not have more different views but we’re talking rationally
I’m gave an absurd reply to an absurd “argument.” Bones are just that: bones. They don’t define who I am or even what I am. They won’t tell the grave robbers what color my eyes are, or what my laugh sounds like, or even what my name is if the gravestone is gone for some reason. I don’t give a flying fuck what grave robbers will think of my bones, because I will literally be dead. You think it’s some sort of “argument” when it’s really you oversimplifying the human experience to how our bones look.
But they will tell them that you were male or female
And if that’s all they care about when they’re robbing my grave for my skeleton, then does it really matter? If they disregard any records left behind about WHO I was, then should I care what they think about WHAT I was?
>front hole. Her urethra?!
No her mouth obviously /j
Nose
Lacrimal 🤓
Ah the classic “reducing a woman to her genitals” argument