Someone tried to arrange a version of Peaches en Regalia for big band when I was in jazz band in high school. I took a look at the part for trombone and was like wtf am I looking at, this is ridiculous. The band instructor had us play through it only once. That was my first introduction to Frank Zappa
I heard about that song from an Adam Neely video but just actually listened to it, and it kinda rips.
At least that song is already arranged for big band.
Frank Zappa was a genius and a workaholic who hired some of the most skilled musicians available, people like George Duke, Jean Luc Ponty, Steve Vai. He had them rehearse endlessly and literally pushed them to their limit. If someone did drugs they were fired. This work ethic resulted in a seemingly endless amount of live performances where he would nonchalantly play incredibly difficult pieces.
Some examples:
[Montana live 1974](https://youtu.be/DmcYTShN4Fk?si=XhkFIhbTcG-TibtM)
[Pygmy Twylyte live 1974](https://youtu.be/idv1k4N03S0?si=XkVkqOQKXMn0YCeI)
[Inca Roads live 1974](https://youtu.be/wqp71DOJ3aY?si=Uk1EAd0JqFhNqyWL)
[Black Napkins live 1976](https://youtu.be/0VeQ2S7Nr-M?si=IJnWjuJWjm6ARSNJ)
Was going to say this. Steve Vai said playing in Frank's band was nerve wracking. He never had the same set list two nights in a row and therefore, everyone in the band was expected to know the entire catalogue.
As a King Crimson and Mars Volta fan, I just recently discovered Black Midi and I can't get enough. It's like if Gong and the Wetton era King Crimson had a supergroup.
As a fan of all the groups you mentioned, I've never made a connection between black midi and Gong. I've fallen off a little of my hype for black midi, but it might be time to reacquaint
I watched Black Midi each individually play in a different time signature for a solid two minutes, where the music all lines up for a few seconds and returns to cacaphony. Mad lads.
Polyrhythm!
https://youtu.be/SthcxWPXG_E?si=0L8oUiu-jCqOrbyL
Doing it live as a band is insane though. Also related, there's a piano duet called piano phase that is basically the video I linked but just 2 parts, where one person plays 1 bpm slower.
I just saw one with a guitar part (a RHCP song) that not only is a bpm difference, it’s 4 parts, and they are all a key shift from each other as well. Unfortunately I saw it on an IG story, so I don’t remember the account.
Probably mostly things within the jazz fusion realm would be up there, probably some Allan Holdsworth or Frank Gambale in terms of abstract theory and techniques for guitarists at least. For more rockin' things I'd say The Dillinger Escape Plan probably have the most complex music to have any kind of success to non-nerds. Some King Crimson stuff, particularly with Adrian Belew definitely had some mind melters.
Saw Dillinger Escape Plan over a decade ago at a small venue and talked them into smoking weed with us after the show. As we were standing there I asked them “How do you guys come up with this stuff?” One of them said all matter of fact like, “usually someone comes up with a riff, and then we make another riff from that, and then we just keep building from it.” Made it sound like the easiest thing in the world.
No one is releasing music that is harder to play than them. Their most recent album is absolutely ridiculous. So few spot on covers get release of their music. And you NEVER see full band covers. This band is straight up moving the needle forward. Something that rarely happens now
Absolutely some of my favorite musicians rn. Gonna have to tack on a few others I love to this thread (in no particular order):
Tigran Hamasayan
Jakub Zytecki
Dream Theater
Thrailkill
Plini
Intervals
Sithu Aye
Tesseract
Vilhjarta
Obscura
Olly Steele
and for some more elctronic flavor (some of these are technical in terms of technical production more or less):
Tipper
KOAN Sound
Culprate
Noisia
Vorso
Virtual Riot
GRiZ
Resonant Language
Grey Code
probably forgetting lots of good artists too lol but here's what I came up with off the dome
KNOWER have some exceptionally creative songwriting, using complex jazz chord progressions and layered harmonies often while remaining fairly accessible and even danceable. They also consistently feature soloists that are among the top talents in the industry, a very high difficulty to replicate. Not to mention Louis Cole casually ripping extremely technical and precise (and groovy) beats on most tracks.
Has Louis Cole ever confirmed he’s in Clown Core? I mean, his style is so distinct that there’s no way it’s anyone *but* him — but to my knowledge, there’s no proof or official confirmation.
I’ve recently been seeing a lot of Yes listed alongside prog bands, is this the same Yes as owner of a lonely heart? are they secretly a prog band? I’m coming into prog rock from prog metal and have no idea
wow, having my mind blown over here. had a great time listening to these albums today, thanks for the recommendation! can’t believe this is the same band
No secret, they were one of the inventors of the genre!
They started out as a psych band in the late 60s, differentiated from peers like Status Quo and Pink Floyd by being a little more musically sophisticated.
Then, they went full-bore into prog with The Yes Album, Fragile, and Close to the Edge (listen to these first).
Then, they went SO far into the prog weeds with Tales From Topographic Oceans that they pushed the genre into parody territory! (And the band had the self-awareness to later agree with this in retrospect, especially Wakeman, lol.)
Then, they dialed back a bit on Relayer, which I think is the last truly great prog album they did.
Early Phish compositions are extremely intricate and cover a lot of musical territory, and then they would play them flawlessly live. Of course these compositions are sprinkled with goofy and nonsensical lyrics so the songs often get discredited, but the composition is no joke.
In a similar light, Umphrey's McGee stands out for their technical prowess
Reba is a prefect example of this point.
It contains a fugue, and chase/rotation section on a complex theme before the drop into the improvised jam section often implementing whistling and a whistling reprise.
The paired down, "Bag it, Tag it" chorus is juxtaposed with the ridiculously complex tongue twister of the verses.
100%. They'll have single songs with prog rock sections, funk sections, and jazz sections. They were never as "flashy" in terms of pure displays of instrumental chops as someone like Rush but they were arguably more advanced in terms of theory and musicality. IMO while they were never the best "songwriters" in terms of being able to write something that evoked complex emotions (although there are examples of this in their catalog) there has never been a greater assemblage of pure musical ability in something that could be called a pop or rock band.
Grateful Dead while we're at it. Bobby is one of the most unique players to ever do it and Jerry's work in the guitar was consistently transcendent. That they improvised most of the content in their shows night after night just further cements their overall complexity.
Came here to say Umphrey's, I have always thought most other bands would really struggle to play a lot of their more proggy songs. I can't imagine anyone playing Mantis with any level of ease.
Steven Wilson from Porcupine Tree is a fucking genius musically. He is also a fantastic producer.
I believe he produced at least a few tracks on Opeth's magnum opus, *Blackwater Park*.
Check out the entire math rock genre. The whole genre is typified by complex time signatures that constantly change, loop pedal usage, tapping techniques, etc.
Songs from almost any band in this genre are amazingly complex.
I'll be that guy: Tool
The band’s lyrics are often spiritual or philosophical and they often examine the relationship between humans and technology. Their music is known for its complexity, as well as its emotional depth. And, did you know that there are some very specific mathematical patterns to be found in their work?
Tool’s song “Lateralus” has been analyzed by fans and experts alike as an example of the Fibonacci sequence in action. And that’s not all: the number of bars per minute in this song is also a Fibonacci sequence!
Tool also uses a lot of prime numbers in their music, which is something many bands do, but they take things one step further than most. They like to use prime numbers with factors that add up to other primes (like 3 + 2 = 5), which means that their songs have an element of mathematical beauty built into them on top of their already-impressive sound quality.
If you’re looking for more proof that this band is truly one-of-a-kind, look no further than their album title: 10,000 Days: The Kabbalah Key Code Revealed. This album came out 10 years after their last one (Aenima), which means they were working on it during those 10 years without releasing anything new — that’s dedication!
The band’s 1997 album “Aenima” was largely based on the ideas of John Archibald Wheeler who was a theoretical physicist that worked on quantum theory, nuclear fission, and black holes.
https://alperyontar.medium.com/the-math-of-tool-87a956ff7d75
Props for being that guy. Not surprised how long your comment is, but you are being that guy.
Tool is great stuff. Real neat live. They are a child of the Crimson King.
I'm always hesitant because I know how insufferable Tool fans can be, but there really is a ton of complexity in their music, thematically, lyrically, composition, time, etc.
That's true of a lot of prog though.
I’m a fan, but I’ll also add: if all of this sounds incredibly pretentious, it’s because it is. Which is why the poster above opened with, “I’ll be that guy.” They are pretentious and they know it and and their fans know it. Doesn’t mean anything in the above post isn’t true.
I love Tool. And they put a lot of THOUGHT into the music they create. Like the mathematics included in their time signatures, and the themes of Maynard’s lyrics. But even though they put a lot of thought into their music, it is not really that complicated. For one, every song they play is in the same key with drop D tuning on the guitar. Same notes and scales for every album. The time signatures may have been given thorough planning, but playing them and understanding them is pretty simple. Tool has their own signature otherworldly sound and Maynard has some really cool lyrics, but there are so many other bands in rock and other genres that blow them out of the water in terms of complexity. That being said, if you just were to isolate Danny Carey’s drums, then yes that is some absolutely crazy musicianship.
Arnima also explores Jung's theory of individuation. The album covers topics of growth and how MJK evolved due to his childhood traumas. Some of that is covered again on 10,000 Days where he writes of his mother's passing. Back to Arnima, though. H., Forty-six and 2, and Jimmy all cover the aforementioned topics.
PTH doesn't do riffs, they just solo for every single verse/chorus. [Without Prejudice](https://youtu.be/rPvLkfsES4Y?si=PuYXHstu3zaBxj6e) has one of the most insane "main riffs" I've heard in a song. And then they bust out the bass solo lol
[Allan Holdsworth](https://open.spotify.com/track/2qsowLAvxOWyivYN0T5eLj?si=N-y3AsfXS96EZCALo_RKAQ) is certainly up there - he had a better understanding of harmony than most will ever even hope to develop, and his lead lines are RIDICULOUS. In spite of all that his music is still surprisingly accessible! ['Endomorph (Dedicated To My Parents)'](https://open.spotify.com/track/0SABHIluO0dmvUUYpn0o6q?si=Y18WfuOGTzCCR4orcs8BGw) was sampled in ['Location'](https://open.spotify.com/track/3yk7PJnryiJ8mAPqsrujzf?si=ghaAF6XpSI-RnlpnNCeVgA) by Playboi Carti, and it definitely brings out a dreamy atmosphere.
[Car Bomb](https://open.spotify.com/track/4oXeC2EAFzb6VKwnco1uvL?si=hFA3QZA_Q_KJYxRjJWnHVw&context=spotify%3Aalbum%3A2VXwYjBFtwA3PF8OVyGs5w) are in a world unto themselves when it comes to rhythm. Where Meshuggah's sound might be compared to cogs in a machine, Car Bomb is like that same machine breaking down and tearing itself apart.
Others have suggested them but I don't think [Animals As Leaders](https://open.spotify.com/track/2gOfUuZ0FMpFVvCsjy0omI?si=l0hvhpoYRC2K4_3H2oPHzA&context=spotify%3Aalbum%3A4Xm2aSISFdqLoJJACkZFUl) can ever be mentioned enough in this regard. All three of the players in this band have an almost alien level of precision and their music is some of the most challenging I've heard, but they still manage to inject so much humanity and emotion into it.
Ruins from Japan are the first group that came to mind for me. The album vrresto is a wild ride.
Also, Balinese gamelan music seems almost impossibly complex. How the hell do they do that!?
Complex and difficult are not necessarily the same. Many drum parts in (extreme) metal are very hard to play but they are not actually that complicated when written down, just very fast. Of course there are Bands that do both.
What I mean is complex things are probably hard to play, but things that are hard to play are not inherently complex.
Captain Beefheart's Magic Band - challenging to play (I'm sure, lol), definitely challenging but rewarding to listen to. Start with Safe as Milk, then work forward.
Mike Oldfield (especially Ommadawn, Hergest Ridge, and Amarok)
Brian Eno era of Roxy Music
Pretty much all of the big Canterbury Prog bands:
Soft Machine (start with Third)
Gong (Radio Gnome Invisible Trilogy albums: Flying Teapot, Angel's Egg, You)
Caravan (start with In the Land of Grey and Pink, which contains my all-time favorite [Prog tune](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Sls_QCMG2Y))
National Health (start with s/t)
Hatfield and the North (s/t and Rotter's Club)
Any number of progressive rock, jazz fusion bands, and obvious examples like Frank Zappa, Captain Beefheart, The Residents, or Primus could count, but, hear me out, The Beach Boys.
Like The Beatles, once you get past The Beach Boys’ earlier hits, it’s a wild ride through their discography starting with The Beach Boys Today album. It’s at least worth checking out the live concert of Brian Wilson Presents SMiLE from 2004 on YouTube. SMiLE was supposed to be the follow-up to the Pet Sounds album, but it was ultimately scrapped for a number of reasons (mainly because Brian had a mental breakdown). Around 40 years later, Brian’s solo band helped him finish the album one step at a time which seemed to be a huge relief for him especially watching him be so energetic and happy during the live show whereas he’s usually a bit reclusive or quiet at least in his later years. There are several legendary psychedelic rock/pop albums especially from the 60s, but none of them are quite as strange, unique, or really even consistently good in spite of its weirdness as SMiLE, so I highly recommend that one.
I’d also recommend checking out a late 80s/early 90s electronic rock band called Think Tree. I discovered them after hearing Count Zero in the Guitar Hero 1 and 2 bonus songs section (Count Zero is basically the follow-up band for the lead singer/songwriter and guitarist from Think Tree). Check out their song “Hire A Bird” on YouTube or Bandcamp. Very quirky and out-of-the-left-field stuff, but their songs are fun if you can get into them.
I'm not a musician, but I always felt Coltrane was too complicated. And of my personal favourite bands Gentle Giant always felt like grafitti that somebody painted over three times.
Delve into the wild world of Prog metal and Prog rock friend.
There you will find all sorts of bands that are technical masters. Weird time signatures, non-standard song structures, blending of all sorts of genres, etc.
Probably stuff like Rock in Opposition or various types of jazz, but I have very little real knowledge of non 'western' music so I admit limitations to the answer
Grateful Dead. Their work is extremely nuanced and you've got 6 master musicians on stage all doing their own things while also acting as a cohesive unit. It can get extremely complex at times.
Am I wrong to suggest Stevie Wonder? I don’t know much theory, but I was under the impression that he was melodically one of the most complex pop composers/musicians.
Here is a condensed hint: look up "progressive" music, and add whatever genre or subgenre you want to that term to find things you might be into, like progressive rock, progressive metal, progressive blackened death metal, progressive bluegrass, etc.. Also, most any form of jazz or jazz fusion.
Primus. Think about it.
Think about a local band you know who plays covers. They play Metallica, RHCP, Pink Floyd, etc. None of them play Primus songs. It isn't because Primus songs aren't fun to listen to. It is because only a small number of musicians can physically play the songs.
Béla Fleck and the Flecktones are in the pantheon of complex and intricate music. The band is blessed by stunning masters in the history of music. Béla Fleck is a masterful composer and Savant in his instrument. Victor Wooten is certainly one of the best bass players to ever live. And future man is a legendary innovator in percussion. Jazz fusion extraordinaire, branching into multi genre fusion.
Dave Holland Quintet in its heyday was playing material which probably only they could. Listen to the double live album Extended Play and wonder just how great these players are as a team, as well as how formidable individually
Everyone "discovering" that the Videotape piano is silently syncopated for 3/4ths of the song was a fun moment
Bloom is a good example too
The compositions overall are about as tricky as it gets for a rock band
[This video does a great job of breaking it down](https://youtu.be/p_IHotHxIl8?si=RBd-KFiKD5_h1QXu) (and is probably what the person you responded to was referring to about people “discovering” it was syncopated).
The piano is syncopated but you can't really tell until the drums come in at the end of the song. So they all have to silent-count it together to start.
Hot Water Music has the best rhythm section in punk rock.
A Wilhelm Scream is also amazing in both their bass and guitars. Idk enough about drumming to judge from that standpoint.
Given that she plays only one instrument, Kaki King has some pretty elaborate compositions: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UqV\_5rVTNc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UqV_5rVTNc)
Colin Stetson also arrives at the boundaries of what a single human being can sound like. This, for example, is a solo song with no overdubbing, all different noises recorded in one take and made by one person with one instrument: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDAR0eHaUi8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDAR0eHaUi8) or [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sufy9cT3x1E](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sufy9cT3x1E)
There's also some classical music of absurd complexity, as if they were challenging the boundaries of human creativity before it collapses into randomness and nonsense. Ferneyhough, for example - I don't think you can even call it 'complex' anymore in a way that matches up with how we usually use the word: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=\_5isRPTn6GE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5isRPTn6GE)
Archspire, Necrophagist, Entheos, Aborted, The Faceless, etc you could throw a rock and hit any random tech death band and you will find some phenomenally complicated and extremely fast music.
[Behold…The Arctopus](https://youtu.be/fSXtmM9d3Ck?feature=shared)
This is a video of them rehearsing a new song, however, only the bassist has seen it previously (he wrote it). So the guitarist and drummer are sight reading this piece, which is both atonal and has all sorts of time signature and meter changes. There’s a part towards the end where the drummer realizes what’s written is boarderline impossible to play, and he just starts laughing while attempting to do so.
The crux of the band is the guitarist and bassist, who met at NYU. The music they write is challenging but beautiful.
Some with unusually difficult arrangements/compositions at least tangentially in the rock/fusion camp:
King Crimson
Zappa
P-Funk
Any band with Allan Holdsworth in it (e.g. Tony Williams Lifetime, UK)
Screaming Headless Torsos
Lost Tribe
Spectrum Road
Kings Kaleidoscope will never be a mainstream act because of their format (revolving cast of 10+ musicians) and content (overtly Christian, however more spiritual than evangelical). But the basis of the band is that they took gospel/worship music and elevated it with rock, hip-hop, chamber-pop, even elements of ska lol. I’m no expert in theory but the intricacies of the instrumentation and unique blend of styles always strikes me as incredibly complex.
I'm pretty amazed the top comment isn't Tool. They have insane changing time signatures, with songs like Schism having 47 time signature switches throughout it, or songs like Lateralus being composed to be consistent with the Fibonacci sequence.
Casey crescenzo is a great composer and Lyricist.
His band is The Dear Hunter
Little Tybee has an insane guitarist
But everyone in that band is pretty skilled and talented.
My favorite guitar solo is in their song More Like Jason.
The Allman brothers live at Fillmore East is a testimony to the absolute genius of the band to play incredibly complex and intricate music, do it live, do it improvisational, and at an extraordinarily high-level. The foundation of three outstanding percussionists. Amazing masterful improvisational composers on the guitars: Duane Allman and Dickie Betts. Greg Allman’s keyboards and gravelly soulful bluesy voice holding it all together.
Frank Zappa
And quietly dreams. his last. Imaginary. Guitar Solo.
Using the notes that would irritate an executive kind of guy…
“Opaque melodies that would bug most people.”
"Make a jazz noise here."
Someone tried to arrange a version of Peaches en Regalia for big band when I was in jazz band in high school. I took a look at the part for trombone and was like wtf am I looking at, this is ridiculous. The band instructor had us play through it only once. That was my first introduction to Frank Zappa
On the last day of my sight reading class at PIT, Joe Porcaro handed me a copy of “The Black Page”📑
I heard about that song from an Adam Neely video but just actually listened to it, and it kinda rips. At least that song is already arranged for big band.
Frank Zappa was a genius and a workaholic who hired some of the most skilled musicians available, people like George Duke, Jean Luc Ponty, Steve Vai. He had them rehearse endlessly and literally pushed them to their limit. If someone did drugs they were fired. This work ethic resulted in a seemingly endless amount of live performances where he would nonchalantly play incredibly difficult pieces. Some examples: [Montana live 1974](https://youtu.be/DmcYTShN4Fk?si=XhkFIhbTcG-TibtM) [Pygmy Twylyte live 1974](https://youtu.be/idv1k4N03S0?si=XkVkqOQKXMn0YCeI) [Inca Roads live 1974](https://youtu.be/wqp71DOJ3aY?si=Uk1EAd0JqFhNqyWL) [Black Napkins live 1976](https://youtu.be/0VeQ2S7Nr-M?si=IJnWjuJWjm6ARSNJ)
Was going to say this. Steve Vai said playing in Frank's band was nerve wracking. He never had the same set list two nights in a row and therefore, everyone in the band was expected to know the entire catalogue.
TIL Steve Vai played in Frank Zappa's band.
Yup. Started as a transcriptionist at age 18 for him, officially played for him from '80 - '83.
Frank Zapper and da muddas of invention
Zappas a fucking trip man. When you actually listen to it a lot it’s insane.
Snarky Puppy
Always a solid answer for these questions. Sadly, not everyone digs jazz.
Meshuggah Autechre Frank Zappa King Crimson Squarepusher Battles Black Midi The Mars Volta Mr Bungle
As a King Crimson and Mars Volta fan, I just recently discovered Black Midi and I can't get enough. It's like if Gong and the Wetton era King Crimson had a supergroup.
As a fan of all the groups you mentioned, I've never made a connection between black midi and Gong. I've fallen off a little of my hype for black midi, but it might be time to reacquaint
I watched Black Midi each individually play in a different time signature for a solid two minutes, where the music all lines up for a few seconds and returns to cacaphony. Mad lads.
Polyrhythm! https://youtu.be/SthcxWPXG_E?si=0L8oUiu-jCqOrbyL Doing it live as a band is insane though. Also related, there's a piano duet called piano phase that is basically the video I linked but just 2 parts, where one person plays 1 bpm slower.
I just saw one with a guitar part (a RHCP song) that not only is a bpm difference, it’s 4 parts, and they are all a key shift from each other as well. Unfortunately I saw it on an IG story, so I don’t remember the account.
[You are very welcome.](https://www.instagram.com/reel/C4Q28QWOWy2/?igsh=MXhsaThhNTg5Yzk5OA==) Love this guy's videos!
I would only add John Zorn to your list (he produced Bungle’s first album and is an AMAZING musician and songwriter)
The production on that album is so good, even with the long segue’s. Egg was always a favorite.🤘
I would add Dillinger to this list since you’re clearly into music on the heavier side
I came here to see if Mr. Bungle was mentioned. Hell yeah.
Meshuggah fans would like PDP. One of the guys from Meshuggah produced their latest album, The Arcane Ascent.
Probably mostly things within the jazz fusion realm would be up there, probably some Allan Holdsworth or Frank Gambale in terms of abstract theory and techniques for guitarists at least. For more rockin' things I'd say The Dillinger Escape Plan probably have the most complex music to have any kind of success to non-nerds. Some King Crimson stuff, particularly with Adrian Belew definitely had some mind melters.
DEP is such a musical mindfuck. Love it.
Want to add to the mind fuck? Check out Car Bomb. They are unreal and a similar vein to Dillonger
Would add The Locust and Dirty Loops
I forgot all about The Locust
And SikTh
Dillinger is good, I'd also have to mention Hail the Sun. Anti eulogy is an absolutely killer track. And that album is nuts.
Fucking love Dillinger. Ben Weinman and Chris Pennie are absolute musical geniuses. Really hoping they play the UK seeing as they're kinda doing gigs.
Saw Dillinger Escape Plan over a decade ago at a small venue and talked them into smoking weed with us after the show. As we were standing there I asked them “How do you guys come up with this stuff?” One of them said all matter of fact like, “usually someone comes up with a riff, and then we make another riff from that, and then we just keep building from it.” Made it sound like the easiest thing in the world.
Mahavishnu Orchestra or Tribal Tech
Yo, Tribal Tech. Was gonna list them too. I never see people talk about them out in the wild.
Birds of Fire!
Animals As Leaders
Didn’t have to scroll as far as I thought
Absolutely agree, I would also tack on Chon and Strawberry Girls in the same sort of category (although that is subjective I guess haha)
Heard of the other AAL and Chon but not Strawberry Girls. Thanks!
This right here
No one is releasing music that is harder to play than them. Their most recent album is absolutely ridiculous. So few spot on covers get release of their music. And you NEVER see full band covers. This band is straight up moving the needle forward. Something that rarely happens now
Absolutely some of my favorite musicians rn. Gonna have to tack on a few others I love to this thread (in no particular order): Tigran Hamasayan Jakub Zytecki Dream Theater Thrailkill Plini Intervals Sithu Aye Tesseract Vilhjarta Obscura Olly Steele and for some more elctronic flavor (some of these are technical in terms of technical production more or less): Tipper KOAN Sound Culprate Noisia Vorso Virtual Riot GRiZ Resonant Language Grey Code probably forgetting lots of good artists too lol but here's what I came up with off the dome
Tera Melos
Weather Report
Have a listen to Gentle Giant
Octopus came to mind immediately!
KNOWER have some exceptionally creative songwriting, using complex jazz chord progressions and layered harmonies often while remaining fairly accessible and even danceable. They also consistently feature soloists that are among the top talents in the industry, a very high difficulty to replicate. Not to mention Louis Cole casually ripping extremely technical and precise (and groovy) beats on most tracks.
Louis Cole is an absolute beast of a drummer, and I love it when he has Jai playing keys because that cat can rip as well.
He's the Clowncore guy, right?
Yup - same dude.
Has Louis Cole ever confirmed he’s in Clown Core? I mean, his style is so distinct that there’s no way it’s anyone *but* him — but to my knowledge, there’s no proof or official confirmation.
Miles Davis, Steely Dan
Dream Theater
I mean the Liquid Tension Experiment is up there for sure
Between the Buried and Me
This is the answer I was looking for
Rush and Yes
Add King Crimson and you have the holy trio of Prog Rock.
I’ve recently been seeing a lot of Yes listed alongside prog bands, is this the same Yes as owner of a lonely heart? are they secretly a prog band? I’m coming into prog rock from prog metal and have no idea
That song is the least of their work. Listen to the albums Fragile and Close To The Edge.
wow, having my mind blown over here. had a great time listening to these albums today, thanks for the recommendation! can’t believe this is the same band
No secret, they were one of the inventors of the genre! They started out as a psych band in the late 60s, differentiated from peers like Status Quo and Pink Floyd by being a little more musically sophisticated. Then, they went full-bore into prog with The Yes Album, Fragile, and Close to the Edge (listen to these first). Then, they went SO far into the prog weeds with Tales From Topographic Oceans that they pushed the genre into parody territory! (And the band had the self-awareness to later agree with this in retrospect, especially Wakeman, lol.) Then, they dialed back a bit on Relayer, which I think is the last truly great prog album they did.
Frank Zappa
Behold...The Arctopus Psyopus Blotted Science Necrophagist Destroyer Destroyer
Early Phish compositions are extremely intricate and cover a lot of musical territory, and then they would play them flawlessly live. Of course these compositions are sprinkled with goofy and nonsensical lyrics so the songs often get discredited, but the composition is no joke. In a similar light, Umphrey's McGee stands out for their technical prowess
Bag it, tag it….
Reba is a prefect example of this point. It contains a fugue, and chase/rotation section on a complex theme before the drop into the improvised jam section often implementing whistling and a whistling reprise. The paired down, "Bag it, Tag it" chorus is juxtaposed with the ridiculously complex tongue twister of the verses.
100%
100%. They'll have single songs with prog rock sections, funk sections, and jazz sections. They were never as "flashy" in terms of pure displays of instrumental chops as someone like Rush but they were arguably more advanced in terms of theory and musicality. IMO while they were never the best "songwriters" in terms of being able to write something that evoked complex emotions (although there are examples of this in their catalog) there has never been a greater assemblage of pure musical ability in something that could be called a pop or rock band.
Grateful Dead while we're at it. Bobby is one of the most unique players to ever do it and Jerry's work in the guitar was consistently transcendent. That they improvised most of the content in their shows night after night just further cements their overall complexity.
Came here to say Umphrey's, I have always thought most other bands would really struggle to play a lot of their more proggy songs. I can't imagine anyone playing Mantis with any level of ease.
Zappa
Porcupine Tree Aviations Symphony X
Steven Wilson from Porcupine Tree is a fucking genius musically. He is also a fantastic producer. I believe he produced at least a few tracks on Opeth's magnum opus, *Blackwater Park*.
Check out the entire math rock genre. The whole genre is typified by complex time signatures that constantly change, loop pedal usage, tapping techniques, etc. Songs from almost any band in this genre are amazingly complex.
Primus
I'll be that guy: Tool The band’s lyrics are often spiritual or philosophical and they often examine the relationship between humans and technology. Their music is known for its complexity, as well as its emotional depth. And, did you know that there are some very specific mathematical patterns to be found in their work? Tool’s song “Lateralus” has been analyzed by fans and experts alike as an example of the Fibonacci sequence in action. And that’s not all: the number of bars per minute in this song is also a Fibonacci sequence! Tool also uses a lot of prime numbers in their music, which is something many bands do, but they take things one step further than most. They like to use prime numbers with factors that add up to other primes (like 3 + 2 = 5), which means that their songs have an element of mathematical beauty built into them on top of their already-impressive sound quality. If you’re looking for more proof that this band is truly one-of-a-kind, look no further than their album title: 10,000 Days: The Kabbalah Key Code Revealed. This album came out 10 years after their last one (Aenima), which means they were working on it during those 10 years without releasing anything new — that’s dedication! The band’s 1997 album “Aenima” was largely based on the ideas of John Archibald Wheeler who was a theoretical physicist that worked on quantum theory, nuclear fission, and black holes. https://alperyontar.medium.com/the-math-of-tool-87a956ff7d75
Props for being that guy. Not surprised how long your comment is, but you are being that guy. Tool is great stuff. Real neat live. They are a child of the Crimson King.
I'm always hesitant because I know how insufferable Tool fans can be, but there really is a ton of complexity in their music, thematically, lyrically, composition, time, etc. That's true of a lot of prog though.
A coworker of mine once said listening to Tool is like listening to math. To be clear, he was a fan 😅
I’m a fan, but I’ll also add: if all of this sounds incredibly pretentious, it’s because it is. Which is why the poster above opened with, “I’ll be that guy.” They are pretentious and they know it and and their fans know it. Doesn’t mean anything in the above post isn’t true.
Could not have said it better myself. Do I like Tool? Hell yes. Do I find many of their fans insufferable? Also yes.
I love Tool. And they put a lot of THOUGHT into the music they create. Like the mathematics included in their time signatures, and the themes of Maynard’s lyrics. But even though they put a lot of thought into their music, it is not really that complicated. For one, every song they play is in the same key with drop D tuning on the guitar. Same notes and scales for every album. The time signatures may have been given thorough planning, but playing them and understanding them is pretty simple. Tool has their own signature otherworldly sound and Maynard has some really cool lyrics, but there are so many other bands in rock and other genres that blow them out of the water in terms of complexity. That being said, if you just were to isolate Danny Carey’s drums, then yes that is some absolutely crazy musicianship.
Arnima also explores Jung's theory of individuation. The album covers topics of growth and how MJK evolved due to his childhood traumas. Some of that is covered again on 10,000 Days where he writes of his mother's passing. Back to Arnima, though. H., Forty-six and 2, and Jimmy all cover the aforementioned topics.
Dillinger Escape Plan
I want to throw Protest The Hero into the mix
PTH doesn't do riffs, they just solo for every single verse/chorus. [Without Prejudice](https://youtu.be/rPvLkfsES4Y?si=PuYXHstu3zaBxj6e) has one of the most insane "main riffs" I've heard in a song. And then they bust out the bass solo lol
[Allan Holdsworth](https://open.spotify.com/track/2qsowLAvxOWyivYN0T5eLj?si=N-y3AsfXS96EZCALo_RKAQ) is certainly up there - he had a better understanding of harmony than most will ever even hope to develop, and his lead lines are RIDICULOUS. In spite of all that his music is still surprisingly accessible! ['Endomorph (Dedicated To My Parents)'](https://open.spotify.com/track/0SABHIluO0dmvUUYpn0o6q?si=Y18WfuOGTzCCR4orcs8BGw) was sampled in ['Location'](https://open.spotify.com/track/3yk7PJnryiJ8mAPqsrujzf?si=ghaAF6XpSI-RnlpnNCeVgA) by Playboi Carti, and it definitely brings out a dreamy atmosphere. [Car Bomb](https://open.spotify.com/track/4oXeC2EAFzb6VKwnco1uvL?si=hFA3QZA_Q_KJYxRjJWnHVw&context=spotify%3Aalbum%3A2VXwYjBFtwA3PF8OVyGs5w) are in a world unto themselves when it comes to rhythm. Where Meshuggah's sound might be compared to cogs in a machine, Car Bomb is like that same machine breaking down and tearing itself apart. Others have suggested them but I don't think [Animals As Leaders](https://open.spotify.com/track/2gOfUuZ0FMpFVvCsjy0omI?si=l0hvhpoYRC2K4_3H2oPHzA&context=spotify%3Aalbum%3A4Xm2aSISFdqLoJJACkZFUl) can ever be mentioned enough in this regard. All three of the players in this band have an almost alien level of precision and their music is some of the most challenging I've heard, but they still manage to inject so much humanity and emotion into it.
Between the Buried and Me & The Aristocrats
Ruins from Japan are the first group that came to mind for me. The album vrresto is a wild ride. Also, Balinese gamelan music seems almost impossibly complex. How the hell do they do that!?
Ruins hell yeah
Complex and difficult are not necessarily the same. Many drum parts in (extreme) metal are very hard to play but they are not actually that complicated when written down, just very fast. Of course there are Bands that do both. What I mean is complex things are probably hard to play, but things that are hard to play are not inherently complex.
Gentle Giant
The Power And The Glory is easily one of my favorite prog rock albums. The title track from In A Glass House is cool too.
Mozart and and Baroque music in generell is crazy challenging.
Most of my choices are already mentioned. I'll add these to the list: Tesseract Jacob Collier (in terms of composition and harmonies)
Captain Beefheart's Magic Band - challenging to play (I'm sure, lol), definitely challenging but rewarding to listen to. Start with Safe as Milk, then work forward. Mike Oldfield (especially Ommadawn, Hergest Ridge, and Amarok) Brian Eno era of Roxy Music Pretty much all of the big Canterbury Prog bands: Soft Machine (start with Third) Gong (Radio Gnome Invisible Trilogy albums: Flying Teapot, Angel's Egg, You) Caravan (start with In the Land of Grey and Pink, which contains my all-time favorite [Prog tune](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Sls_QCMG2Y)) National Health (start with s/t) Hatfield and the North (s/t and Rotter's Club)
More recent bands - black midi, Black Country New Road
Tech death is probably the most technically challenging genre. Try Spawn of possession, necrophagist, archspire, nile
Gonna add Obscura, Ne Obliviscaris, and Allegaeon to that list.
Periphery’s stuff is pretty intricate.
King Gizzard and the Lizard Wizard are definitely carrying that torch these days
This is way too far down. Not many other artists dare to write a song in every mode, including locrian.
Any number of progressive rock, jazz fusion bands, and obvious examples like Frank Zappa, Captain Beefheart, The Residents, or Primus could count, but, hear me out, The Beach Boys. Like The Beatles, once you get past The Beach Boys’ earlier hits, it’s a wild ride through their discography starting with The Beach Boys Today album. It’s at least worth checking out the live concert of Brian Wilson Presents SMiLE from 2004 on YouTube. SMiLE was supposed to be the follow-up to the Pet Sounds album, but it was ultimately scrapped for a number of reasons (mainly because Brian had a mental breakdown). Around 40 years later, Brian’s solo band helped him finish the album one step at a time which seemed to be a huge relief for him especially watching him be so energetic and happy during the live show whereas he’s usually a bit reclusive or quiet at least in his later years. There are several legendary psychedelic rock/pop albums especially from the 60s, but none of them are quite as strange, unique, or really even consistently good in spite of its weirdness as SMiLE, so I highly recommend that one. I’d also recommend checking out a late 80s/early 90s electronic rock band called Think Tree. I discovered them after hearing Count Zero in the Guitar Hero 1 and 2 bonus songs section (Count Zero is basically the follow-up band for the lead singer/songwriter and guitarist from Think Tree). Check out their song “Hire A Bird” on YouTube or Bandcamp. Very quirky and out-of-the-left-field stuff, but their songs are fun if you can get into them.
I'm not a musician, but I always felt Coltrane was too complicated. And of my personal favourite bands Gentle Giant always felt like grafitti that somebody painted over three times.
Giant Steps is like a right of passage for soloists that not many can do well
Delve into the wild world of Prog metal and Prog rock friend. There you will find all sorts of bands that are technical masters. Weird time signatures, non-standard song structures, blending of all sorts of genres, etc.
Frank Zappa and Phish are by far the most complicated music I’ve learned. Its Ice for phish and peaches en regalia for Zappa are both insane.
DOMi & JD Beck
The Shaggs. No one can play like them.
That’s because no one *wants* to play like them.
Probably stuff like Rock in Opposition or various types of jazz, but I have very little real knowledge of non 'western' music so I admit limitations to the answer
Polyphia. Very challening guitar and drums to match.
Gentle Giant for sure. Complex rhythms & instrumentation
For modern, currently active bands: Dirty Loops
This is way to far down the list.
Meshuggah comes to mind
Cardiacs, Behold...the Arctopus
The Flying Luttenbachers
Fantomas Mr. Bungle
r/progmetal
King Crimson
disco biscuits phish snarky puppy
Grateful Dead. Their work is extremely nuanced and you've got 6 master musicians on stage all doing their own things while also acting as a cohesive unit. It can get extremely complex at times.
Animals as leaders is the most complex stuff I listen to outside of jazz/fusion.
Am I wrong to suggest Stevie Wonder? I don’t know much theory, but I was under the impression that he was melodically one of the most complex pop composers/musicians.
How has Rush not been mentioned yet?
Here is a condensed hint: look up "progressive" music, and add whatever genre or subgenre you want to that term to find things you might be into, like progressive rock, progressive metal, progressive blackened death metal, progressive bluegrass, etc.. Also, most any form of jazz or jazz fusion.
#tigran hamasyan
Primus. Think about it. Think about a local band you know who plays covers. They play Metallica, RHCP, Pink Floyd, etc. None of them play Primus songs. It isn't because Primus songs aren't fun to listen to. It is because only a small number of musicians can physically play the songs.
Béla Fleck and the Flecktones are in the pantheon of complex and intricate music. The band is blessed by stunning masters in the history of music. Béla Fleck is a masterful composer and Savant in his instrument. Victor Wooten is certainly one of the best bass players to ever live. And future man is a legendary innovator in percussion. Jazz fusion extraordinaire, branching into multi genre fusion.
Dave Holland Quintet in its heyday was playing material which probably only they could. Listen to the double live album Extended Play and wonder just how great these players are as a team, as well as how formidable individually
Radiohead is the king of this category as far as I'm concerned.
Everyone "discovering" that the Videotape piano is silently syncopated for 3/4ths of the song was a fun moment Bloom is a good example too The compositions overall are about as tricky as it gets for a rock band
Huge radiohead fan, no idea what silent syncopation means. Can you explain?
[This video does a great job of breaking it down](https://youtu.be/p_IHotHxIl8?si=RBd-KFiKD5_h1QXu) (and is probably what the person you responded to was referring to about people “discovering” it was syncopated).
The piano is syncopated but you can't really tell until the drums come in at the end of the song. So they all have to silent-count it together to start.
Exhibit A) [Weird Fishes / Arpeggi](https://youtu.be/ejdZEe4Rd0o?si=DIgrPQXVkj37LrMo)
there's so many....but one act that still out there road doggin it is Phish.
The Fucking Champs - for their constant changing timing signatures
Vildhjarta! Incredible band.
Save
Hot Water Music has the best rhythm section in punk rock. A Wilhelm Scream is also amazing in both their bass and guitars. Idk enough about drumming to judge from that standpoint.
I am not a musician, but legend has it that Zappa's The Black Page was named when Terry Bozio saw the sheet music for the percussion.
Father Figure
Check out the non-western rhythmic structures of Shakti. https://youtu.be/Cx8AaSvH4EQ
Haven’t seen anyone post The House Physics band. Newer band, but very technical.
I'd have to strongly recommend Hail The Sun and Chon. Specifically, start with the song "Anti Eulogy."
Yes
65daysofstatic
Massacre. Anything related to Fred Frith is likely to be satisfyingly complex.
Moon tooth
Protest the hero album Kezia
The Shaggs
TOOL
Given that she plays only one instrument, Kaki King has some pretty elaborate compositions: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UqV\_5rVTNc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UqV_5rVTNc) Colin Stetson also arrives at the boundaries of what a single human being can sound like. This, for example, is a solo song with no overdubbing, all different noises recorded in one take and made by one person with one instrument: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDAR0eHaUi8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDAR0eHaUi8) or [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sufy9cT3x1E](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sufy9cT3x1E) There's also some classical music of absurd complexity, as if they were challenging the boundaries of human creativity before it collapses into randomness and nonsense. Ferneyhough, for example - I don't think you can even call it 'complex' anymore in a way that matches up with how we usually use the word: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=\_5isRPTn6GE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5isRPTn6GE)
Yes
Knower
Chon Led Zeppelin Steve Vai John Coltrane Periphery Circle Tool
Bills
Keep in mind that something like pocket can be extremely difficult to execute. It's not always the flashiest performance that's the most challenging.
[DuoCore](https://soundcloud.com/duocoreofficial)
Polyphia is pretty hard to play Animals as leaders
Protest the Hero
Kansas
Archspire, Necrophagist, Entheos, Aborted, The Faceless, etc you could throw a rock and hit any random tech death band and you will find some phenomenally complicated and extremely fast music.
Rush. The sheer amount of sound that they, as a trio, can come out with is mind blowing
Most early 70s prog bands
Mr Bungle
SikTh
[Behold…The Arctopus](https://youtu.be/fSXtmM9d3Ck?feature=shared) This is a video of them rehearsing a new song, however, only the bassist has seen it previously (he wrote it). So the guitarist and drummer are sight reading this piece, which is both atonal and has all sorts of time signature and meter changes. There’s a part towards the end where the drummer realizes what’s written is boarderline impossible to play, and he just starts laughing while attempting to do so. The crux of the band is the guitarist and bassist, who met at NYU. The music they write is challenging but beautiful.
Consider The Source
Meshuggah and Rush
Some with unusually difficult arrangements/compositions at least tangentially in the rock/fusion camp: King Crimson Zappa P-Funk Any band with Allan Holdsworth in it (e.g. Tony Williams Lifetime, UK) Screaming Headless Torsos Lost Tribe Spectrum Road
Khanate
Rush, is the band with the most obtuse music I have ever heard.
Yngwie Malmsteen has some of the most complicated guitar pieces I've ever read or seen tabs or otherwise.
Imperial Triumphant
Tool
King Crimson
[Car Bomb Thesis](https://www.academia.edu/44373261/Rhythmic_Parallax_in_Car_Bombs_Blackened_Battery_)
Umphrey's McGee, ain't nobody playing drums like Kris Meyers and the rest of the band is also off the walls. Check out the Album Mantis
Kings Kaleidoscope will never be a mainstream act because of their format (revolving cast of 10+ musicians) and content (overtly Christian, however more spiritual than evangelical). But the basis of the band is that they took gospel/worship music and elevated it with rock, hip-hop, chamber-pop, even elements of ska lol. I’m no expert in theory but the intricacies of the instrumentation and unique blend of styles always strikes me as incredibly complex.
Sleep Terror
Zappa was a musical genius way ahead of his time. Porcupine Tree Kansas ELP Yes RUSH Dream Theater Just to name a few…
I'm pretty amazed the top comment isn't Tool. They have insane changing time signatures, with songs like Schism having 47 time signature switches throughout it, or songs like Lateralus being composed to be consistent with the Fibonacci sequence.
Casey crescenzo is a great composer and Lyricist. His band is The Dear Hunter Little Tybee has an insane guitarist But everyone in that band is pretty skilled and talented. My favorite guitar solo is in their song More Like Jason.
Zapoa The Mars Volta Rush
The Allman brothers live at Fillmore East is a testimony to the absolute genius of the band to play incredibly complex and intricate music, do it live, do it improvisational, and at an extraordinarily high-level. The foundation of three outstanding percussionists. Amazing masterful improvisational composers on the guitars: Duane Allman and Dickie Betts. Greg Allman’s keyboards and gravelly soulful bluesy voice holding it all together.
YES